The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 394: Officially Unofficial Awards Ballot

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

Dom Luszczyszyn joins the show to discuss how we're filling out our awards ballots for the 2020-2021 NHL regular season. The topics include: The last finalist in the Calder voting Kirill Kaprizov vs. Jason Robertson Andrei Vasilevskiy fading down the stretch Juuse Saros' herculean effort getting Nashville in What defense looks like as part of a two-way effort Sasha Barkov's monster season Why Jaccob Slavin has to (finally) win the Lady Byng  Separating coaches from their team's PDO All of the strong candidates in the Norris discussion Cale Makar's impact when he's played Charlie McAvoy's 5-on-5 performance Victor Hedman's ability vs. stats this season The historical context of Connor McDavid's numbers If you haven't yet, please go take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. If you're busy and don't feel like writing anything, it's all good. Just hit the 5-star button. Each one counts, and helps us out. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a note about why you recommend people check the show out. Thanks for the help! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedogast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Dom Lushish and Dom. What's going on, man? It's another DIM plus Dome production. Not too much. Just excited to finally watch some playoff hockey and in a month or so see some new matchups. Yes. Well, we're not going to talk about playoffs today. We're actually going to put a bow on the regular season because the plan is to, and listen, like you're going to have, you already have some playoff previews up at the athletic. I'm going to have playoff previews coming on the podcast over the next couple days. I thought we could put a bow on, the regular season by working our way through our awards ballots and kind of talking out

our rationale and our opinions. And I don't have one this year because of the reshuffling of the Pro Hockey Regers Association and how they're distributing the awards. You do, though. So it's a nice little preview of what's to come. And so, yeah, we're going to do all the big awards and we're going to try to have a bit of fun with it and go from there. So how does that sound to you?

It sounds good. I'm always excited to talk awards, even though sometimes it can lead me into some hot water. I feel like there's not going to be anything super controversial this season, although maybe let's wait till the Norris Trophy before we get into that. But let's start with a Calder because it's about first-year players. It's a first in our list. I think it's pretty clear that there's a one-two that distinguished themselves. And I kind of wanted to save them until the back half of this conversation because I thought

it'll make more sense to kind of start off with who we have considerations and buying for for that third spot on the finalist ballot. So let's start there and let's go from there. What are some of the names that you're considering for third on that list? I don't know if it's too much of a contest for me. There are a lot of rookies, but not a lot of them, I guess, stood out from the pack. I think in recent years there's been a few, like you think to last year, there was a lot of rookies that got some consideration.

but this year you have the main two, and then you have a long list of rookies that were okay. They maybe scored a bit, but a lot of them didn't really dry play or they got outscored at five on five. I mean, if you look at the rookie leaderboard for scoring, you have the top two who were in the green, and then the next like 20 rookies just got outscored at five on five.

And I think that has sort of, made it a bit of a mixed bag for the back half the ballot, but I think the number three guy for me, despite the lack of games played, was Alex Dalkovich from Carolina. Yep. I've got Emma's third on my list as well. First off, good Serbian lad.

I have to give him some respect there. Led the hurricanes, actually, by the end of the season in goalie games, just managed to finally leap prog James Rimer there. And, you know, part of that was, I'm assuming, on their part, getting into the threshold where he'd retain RFA status as opposed to becoming a UFA this summer. And we'll see if he's going to be their playoff starter moving forward, whether Petter and Marazek will get that role.

But, yeah, he had some pretty crazy numbers, right? Like, he had a 945 save percentage at 5-1-5, which was tied for first with Saros, 932 save a percentage overall, which is the best, plus 12.9 goals saveable of expected, which is behind only Mark Andre Fleury. The issue for me is partly, yeah, he only played 23 games. and also, I don't know what to make of the fact that Petter and Razick in half of those games had equally ridiculous results. Like, there's some models that have the two of them as like two of the best five goalies this season, which, you know, it's obviously a small sample. So that's going to be partly due to it.

And the Hurricanes were obviously a very good team. But it does kind of make you think about like how much credit we should be giving them for the ridiculous numbers he does have. Yeah, it is definitely a fair thing to consider. you look at his comparison to Morazik, and they were just both so phenomenal that it is really hard to say how much is him and how much is the team. But at the same time,

you look at James Reimer's numbers, and they are horrific. And there's a clear divide between Ned, Morazic, and Reimer, where I don't think Marazick also being good should discount how strong Ned is as well. And he may not have played a lot of games, but what he did in those games was incredibly impactful.

And I think also the story around him, considering he was available for free on waivers earlier this season, and didn't have the strongest numbers going in from the brief time he has been in the NHL and sort of just seized the net in Carolina. Goleys. Can't live with them, can't live without him. Yeah. What a story. No, you're right.

And certainly, just if you're viewing it from the perspective of value added to his team as a rookie, I think he's very firmly in this top three. I wanted to give Josh Norris a little bit of love. He's one of the rookies that you were mentioning there that got outscored while he was on the ice. But he was third in rookie scoring. I do think in terms of degree of difficulty being the number one center basically on his team. And putting up pretty good underlying numbers, even defensively, all things considered, is certainly like a check in his favor.

Playing with Brady Kachuk for a lot of those minutes helps in terms of the high danger totals and the expected goal stuff because he's just an absolute freak when it comes to driving those. But Josh Norris had a really good year as well. And I know Senators fans are going to be listening to this clinging for some hope. So I wanted to throw them a bit of a life raft here as well in terms of the season Josh Norris had. Yeah, yeah.

He had a great one. He had strong underlying numbers. He was third in scoring, I think. He's definitely the next guy. And he might even end up on some ballots because some people won't feel comfortable with how many games Ned started. But I think as long as it's not to, I guess, be mean to Senators fans. But I wasn't too impressed with Tim Stuttle's season from a five-on-five perspective. So I'd rather take Norris.

And as long as it's not Stuttle, I'm okay with a Sends rookie on the ballot. Yeah. Yeah, he had the better rookie year this year for sure. Okay, let's get into the top two then. Do you want to start talking about Caprizo? Do you want to start with Donald Robertson, how you grade the two of them? You can take it any way you want. I think it was really funny that for one week, people were like, is there a contest for the

Calder Trophy? Is Jason Robertson maybe sneak it into this race, maybe taking over? And then Caprisov said, no, that's not happening, folks. I'm just going to elevate my game even further and make it unquestionable that I'm the best rookie this season. In terms of total value, I have Caprisov 15th in the entire league. And just watching him is such a treat. And as you know, I've watched a fair bit of Minnesota Wild Games this year.

And thankfully, he was a big part of what made the team so exciting. And while I'm not too keen on the narrative that he's the reason. They had such a good team. and they had better goal-tending this year, I think was a lot more important. But he is just so captivating, so electric, and such a dynamic player that I don't see. I can go to anyone but him this year. Yeah. I think it's amazing a testament to the run Robertson was on that you were alluded to there,

that he even made this race as like a legitimate conversation for a while there, considering that he started the year basically playing four, five minutes and had two goals in his first 12 games. I did a big deep dive of the season with Sean Shapiro recently, so I think people should just go and listen to that rather than me regurgitating all of it. But just some of my favorite Robertson's stats before we get to Caprizov. So from March 1st on, he had 27, 515 points, which was behind only Connor McDavid. He had 39 points in 40 games, which is the 13th best total. With him on ice at 515, the star scored 3.6 goals per 60.

Everyone else, he was ninth overall. Everyone else in the top 10 plays for either Vegas, Edmonton, or Colorado. The Stars as a team were 24th overall at 5-1-5 scoring. So the fact that, you know, contextually he did that on this team is pretty remarkable. And my favorite stat to describe him is using in-stats, tracking, you know, proprietary data, they have them down for 18 stick-handling events this season

in terms of him trying to do stuff on the move with the puck. For context, Carol Caprizov had 106 of them. Connor McDavid has 201. one. And the only reason I bring that up is just, I think the NHL actually tweeted out a, like, a mix of Jason Roberts and highlights. And it's basically him just causing havoc around the net and, like, cleaning stuff up and converting on opportunities in tight. And there's nothing wrong with that. Immensely useful, very effective. The stars desperately needed it. Him and Rupéhins are basically their sole drivers of offense for the second half of the season. But I just wanted to kind

of describe it for anyone that necessarily didn't watch Jason Roberts. And it perfectly kind of exemplifies the way he played and just how different stylistically he was than Caprizov in terms of the puck carrying and sort of how they generated their offense. Was Deeks not available as a name for this stat? It's just stick handling, man. I don't know. Stick handling events. I don't make the rules.

I mean, they didn't even have takeaways. They have puck recoveries. But yeah, no, I like it. I think it's a fun one. With Caprizov, I don't know where you stand on this. I really do not care that he's. about to turn 24 and has years of pro experience. He, what do you accomplish this year is insane.

He made the leap to North America with years of hype and expectations and immense pressure. He gave the Minnesota Wild Organization an entire facelift. I know, as you said, the primary difference between this year and last year for them is the fact that they went from 29th and teams, their percentage to 8th. But just stylistically, entertainment perspective, people like you and I tuning in and watching all of their games every night, his values. his value was just unparreled in that regard. Burst onto the scene with an overtime winner in three points in his debut, carried it all the way through, has 11 goals in his last 12 games, including a bunch of clutch ones.

It just, you go on down the line. His production, all things considered is remarkable regardless of age and playing experience. And he was very clearly the best first-year NHL player in the league this year. Very clearly. And I think it's just amazing that there was so much hype around him and he somehow surpassed it. I think that's the craziest part for me.

It's remarkable. Plus 17 penalty differential, only behind Connor McDavid and Braden Point. Just lugging around Victor Rask all season. Just what he did contextually is truly stunning. Like his point totals could have been even significantly higher if he had better teammates. So, yeah, I think we're definitely in agreement there. Let's move on. I got the Vesina next year on our list.

I don't know. It's the goalies, man. How do we, so give me your top three or actually give me the names you would consider here and it can be any number of guys. This one's funny because for like 90% of the season, I think we both thought that Vasselowski was running away with this. And over the last month, he's been kind of bad. And I think his numbers have sort of regressed a bit from where they were to start. and he didn't even end up leading the league and goal saved above expected like he was for the majority of the year.

So it's a weird one from that context, but there's three main ones for me, and then after that it gets a bit tricky. I think at the top, Vasilefsky, Mark Andre Fleury, Connor Hellbuck, they all have a pretty strong case, and I'd probably go in that order. And then after that, I think I'd have UC Saros for, just how much he literally carried the National Predators down the stretch was amazing.

They looked like they were D-O-A and now they're in the playoffs. And that has a lot to do with him. And the last one for me is Mike Smith because I love it. No one thought this could have happened. No one saw Edmonton re-sign Mike Smith and say, yeah, that's the answer. and he absolutely was the answer. And he had a great season. He deserves a lot of credit for it.

It's so out of left field that you can't even like dunk on people about it. You can't be like, oh, wow, he's proving all the haters wrong. It's like, there weren't haters. They were just realists looking at his performance over the past couple of years. And there was no signs to suggest this was coming. He's been fantastic this season. Hasn't even really had any, like, blow-up performances where you're like, oh, God, he looks unplayable out there.

Like, he's been good. But he was very surprisingly solid. And yeah, you're right. It's funny. I think the name, not going to be in the top three, but definitely deserving of recognition of the season he's having. For Vasilevsky, you know, you mentioned the word context there. And I do think it is important because he played like 39 of the team's first 50 games

or something like that. And I certainly think that was very aggressive. And if there was one goal he physically, you could pull it off because he's just the machine. It was him. But I do think that is certainly related to this. And, you know, his total numbers look worse than they probably are, if you consider the fact that his final two games in particular, where they weren't really even dressing, like, even half of their regular decor. He gave up nine goals total in these last two games that are Panthers. So, you know, still for the year, 925, save a percentage plus 12 goals saved above expected.

He carried them for, like, a large stretch of the year. He had like a 940 say percentage and was making the lightning look significantly better than they actually were by any other metrics. So I still have a tough time moving on from him, just because I, I feel like he was the best goalie I watched play this season. But Flurry legitimately has a statistical argument right now in terms of just being better across the board in terms of the final numbers. Yeah, I agree. And there's another one in the same vein as Smith where Vegas could not give Flurry away.

They couldn't attach picks to Flurry to give him away. And what does Flurry do? He leads them to this incredible season where he plays some of the best hockey's career. has this legitimate case for the Vesna where with how Vasselowski ended the season, I'm not sure he's a guarantee anymore. And it might genuinely come down to those two. It's kind of funny because Vasselowski was so good in that that there was legitimate talk about him as a heart trophy nominee for a lot of the season. And now that sort of went by the wayside with how he's finished where now not even the Vesna is a guarantee anymore. No, no, it's certainly up for grabs.

And I think Flurry's going to get a lot of a lot of sort of like sentimental votes, I think as well, because it is obviously a great story and he's sort of a league-wide favorite. But the numbers back up the performance this year. It's not like one of those things

where you're trying to jam up a square peg into a round hole and be like, oh, well, we like this guy, so let's give him some love. Like the numbers certainly back it up. Yeah, the Soros one is interesting for me. I'm really curious to see how much Vezna love he does get from voters. because his final 25 games from February 27th on, I don't know,

what was the lowest playoff probability of the Predators were at all year in terms of your model? I literally had them at 2%. So it was stunning to see them pull it off. And I remember at the time when they started winning, I'm like, I have them a little too low. And I noticed that there were some injuries they had that I was a little too aggressive on. And they started coming back. So 2% was probably overselling just how dire the situation was.

But at the same time, I don't think their chances were above 10% at the time. So it's one of the more shocking playoff comebacks in a long time. And Saros was basically 90% of the reason, I think. Yeah, 46 total goals against in those 25 games, a 9-43 save percentage. Just obscene, 1-18 of them. And, you know, good for him. He's someone who we've been waiting for years to, take the crease in Nashville and sort of, he's steadily year over year, had his workload

increased. Now it looks like Pecoran is going to be retiring. They're at a really interesting spot organizationally because they spent this high draft back on Yaroslav Ascarov and last year's draft. Saros is, I think, an RFA this year and he's like 26 years old. So they're at a real crossroads moment in terms of how much they commit to him, what the future looks like for both the team and for him and net. And based on these games, like he looks amazing. And one of the few goalies that's legitimately fun to watch. It's because he is smaller, so he compensates for it by just being, like, insanely quick and just bouncing around and making all of these wild saves. And I don't think anyone's necessarily expecting him to keep saving 94 plus percent of the

shots he faces, but it's quite a run. And anyone that was waiting for him to fall off during that stretch was sorely disappointed because he just kept stacking up an incredible game after incredible game. Yeah. And that's scary for Carolina, who now has to face him in the first round. I, as much as Saros has really taken, making a name for himself this year, I think what's funny is that he did this last year too. He had this awful start to the season and then March came along and he was the best going league.

I don't know what it is about March, but Saros is Mr. March at this point. He just turns it on and becomes unstoppable. Maybe he just loves the springtime energy. I'm not sure. But I don't get it because this happened last year. And that's why when Nashville drafted Ascarab, I remember a lot of people saying, oh, they need a goalie. And I was thinking, they have Soros.

He's really good. I don't quite understand, but go off, I guess. And here we are a year later. And Saros went off. And I think he, considering his age, can be a strong goalie for a long time. Yeah. He's been so good. And I'm curious to see what in the future, both the immediate future and the years down the road look like for him.

All right. Let's do the Selkie next. I'd recommend that anyone listening to this goes, reads Shana Goldman's piece on it on Athletic because I thought she did a really, really good job in terms of thoughtfully, kind of just considering all the angles of what this award should be and how we should contextualize it and think about it. I still, like, I imagine you would feel the same way. I still struggle about it just because most of the best options by the metrics are these lower event wingers who, you know, nothing's really happening when they're on the ice. And I guess that is good defense.

But it's a significantly easier to do than being a number one, either winger or a center who's constantly, like, having to create as well and juggle all of those responsibilities. and I think they're two entirely different beasts. So I don't want to just have this be like a total hipster thing where we're like, oh, these three third line wingers have actually been the best defensive players in the league this season because I don't think that is the spirit of the award. But at the same time, I struggle with the idea that a player who has been good defensively, they need to wait their turn and put up more points

before we consider them to be impactful defensively. So juggling all of those things makes this a really difficult one for me. I actually don't struggle with this. that much. I think I see the people saying that these third-liner should win the Selke, and it just feels very condescending to the coaches actually putting these players on the ice, because if they were these elite defensive behemoths, they probably would not be playing 13 minutes per night.

And it just the assumption that all these coaches are morons, it just doesn't sit well with me. when I think of the Selke, I generally have a time on ice caught off. And anyone below that, I just, I honestly, I don't consider. I'm not going to bother with the argument. And that has led me to some stronger names who take on tougher minutes and can be trusted in those minutes. Because a lot of times with these players on third lines is they don't play as often against top lines. Obviously, there's the whole quality competition thing that is always controversial in the analyst community.

But even if people mostly agree that it's overstated, it still matters to an extent because there are legitimate differences. And I think that needs to be accounted for when we're looking at the Selke Award. Well, I think the responsibilities of the player needs to be considered. not even necessarily from the perspective of quality competition or quality of teammates. It's like what they're being asked to do, like a third-line winger who's playing 12 to 14 minutes a night. Their team will be happy if they go out there and keep the puck along the boards and nothing happens and then they get off the ice and then the best players come on and try to score. But if you're a top-line player who's playing a ton and your team relies on you to drive

offense and do everything, if that's all that's happening when you're on the ice, team is going to wind up losing. And so I just think you can't even really compare the two because they're just, you know, the list of responsibilities is so wildly different that it's almost like they're playing two different sports. Yeah. Yeah. I think the responsibility angle is an important one because it's also harder to play defense when you have to worry about everything else on top of that. And I think that's what has made Barkov season so special this year is he literally has to do it all. And that makes playing defense, a little harder, and he still performed adamantly well in this role where I have to do everything.

He did. So give me the considerations then that you're considering after you apply your time on ice cutoff. Like, who are you really legitimately? You're either your top three or top five or whatever. I think one of the considerations that does keep me up is whether the players should play on the penalty kill. And I want to know what you think about that. because there are a few players this season where they have some really strong defensive numbers. They play top minutes every night, and some of them are superstar players who have these elite defensive results. But because you don't want to waste that player's time on the penalty kill, they just don't

play on the penalty kill. So what do you make of that? Should a player have to have that responsibility to be eligible for this award or not? Well, I don't think the way I viewed is I don't think it should preclude the point. player from being up for consideration or even winning the award, I think it's a nice luxury. And I will say that I actually wrote about this today of early prospects, but I, I love teams that use basically like a combination of two of their top line forwards to kill penalties, because it provides you such an advantage where you're typically, when as soon as you recover

the puck, you're going in transition against. Generally, most teams are using four forwards, and none of them know how to skate backwards or defend. And so you have a great opportunity to create something yourself. And I just think in terms of the modernization of the game, like for teams to be wasting two minutes at a time, just basically being like, okay, we're going to put these big lumbering guys out there to stand in front of our net and try to block shots as opposed to trying to aggressively retrieve the puck and actually create ourselves. They're doing themselves a disservice. So whether it's Carolina with Ajo and ECHS or whether it's Vegas with Mark Stone and Chandler Stevenson or the Bruins with Bergen and Marshan. Like I love when teams are using their top players.

I get the risks associated with it in terms of you're exposing them to potentially having to block shots and breaking a bone or getting injured or if you have them at a time cutoff, you don't want to be wasting a bunch of it on opportunities where they're going to be less likely to score. But I'd like to see every team start using their top players to kill penalties because I do think it's kind of this hidden advantage of optimizing those minutes compared to how others are using them. Yeah, for sure.

I think it's just a matter of leverage and whether you want, for example, because there are two players I'm considering, do you want Matthews and McKinnon to be playing two minutes of penalty killing time night, or do you want those minutes reserved for five on five, five on four time when you have players who are already capable of killing penalties? I think that's the question for me. And that sort of makes me wonder whether those two should be up for this award, because Matthews and McKinnon legitimately had one of the strongest defensive impacts this season, which is a little bit unusual for two offensive superstars.

But whenever they're on the ice, they both controlled play to an insane degree. And they're both smart enough to get the puck back into the defensive zone and make an impact in that way that I think they are worthy of consideration, whether they make it onto many ballots or not. The thing is, is like, everyone on the abs in strong defensive impact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

that is the other thing. And it's sort of the same with the Leafs where because they play the North Division where no one was nearly as good as them, a lot of players on the Leafs have strong defensive impacts. And you wonder whether they're actually good defensively or whether the team is just strong enough that they just always have the puck. Okay. So stop stalling. Give me your concerns. Give me a short list. The short list I think right now for me is Barkov, Pavelski, and Joel Erickson. I think that's my top three. Yeah, I think that that is right. I really, it's tough because I think Mark Stone this year proportionally more of his value was driven by his offense. So this wasn't the year to give him the Selke. If you wanted to dog yourself into it just because he's been deserving of significantly

more consideration in the past, I'm not going to be mad at it because he is a complete badass and no one does cooler things defensively he does. And in terms of your question of should top players be killing penalties, he played 70, four on five minutes this season, and the Knights played opposing power plays to a one-one draw in those minutes, which is one of my favorite stats, just such a beast.

Barkov, his numbers did slip a bit defensively from his amazing start. At the same time, I love this glow-up for him in terms of where he was at last year, and then compared to even his final totals this year, he basically cut off a sizable chunk of

shots against, expected goals against, high danger, attempts against, which was a big driver for a success this season. And despite the drop-off, I do still think he had sort of the most impactful two-way season considering all of those things. Yeah. And the thing with Barkov and Stone is how people look at this award, and whether this is a defensive forward award or a two-way forward award. And the strict definition is defensive forward, but that's not how most people vote. And that makes it a bit tough. offer to sort of narrow down a list. And that's the one reason I don't, I didn't consider Stone as much as that top

three that I had. I do think Erick has had a strong defensive season for the while. I've been being the drum on that for a while. And he's stayed consistent in that regard all season, even when the wild were struggling a bit. And Pavelski, he doesn't kill penalties the same degree as Barcover-Eriksneck or other top forward is eligible for this award, but he isn't not kill them. He still is out there sometimes, and his defensive impacts this season were incredible that I think he needs to be on the ballot

and finally get some credit for his defense ability because he's been a top two-way forward for a long time now. He's never really gotten, I guess, been put in the spotlight for that. Yeah. Yeah, Joel Erickson-Eckone's funny because, you know, he's been doing this for a while, His underlying numbers in terms of like 5-on-5-all-on-ice shares are preposterous. But, you know, this year he goes from six goals, seven goals, eight goals the past three years. Now it's 19 and 54 games. And I think he's going to get more allowed for it accordingly, which speaks to what we were talking about earlier. But now I was looking at it in the Wild sneakily.

We talked about Caprizov. Now Joel Erickson, Kevin Fiala. Their three best forwards are all up for new contracts this year. So I'm not sure how the Minnesota Wild is an organization or a feeling about the fact that you're talking up, Joel Erick for Selke, but I guess it's a good problem to have because he's finally getting recognition for his performance and he's a really, really good player. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I don't think that's the last Minnesota Wilde person we'll be talking about on this podcast either.

Okay, we'll see. We'll see about that. Let's do one more award here, a quick one before we take a break. The Lady Bing, I sprung this one on you because usually when I do these shows, I don't even consider this one because it's such a dumb award. The definition is so nebulous as writers and broadcasters and everything, we shouldn't even be voting because who knows, like we're not equipped to judge who the most gentlemanly, quote-unquote player is, whatever that means. I have two takes on this award, though. One, if Jacob Slavin doesn't win this year, it's going to be a complete and utter disaster.

I don't care about this award, but I do care about Jacob Slavin winning it because it's just insane that a defenseman hasn't won for this long. and we tend to just solely look at basically penalty minutes for this award as determining who the most gentlemanly player is, and for him to have played 1,200 total minutes this season and taken one penalty, which was for accidentally shooting the puck over the glass, despite playing against other teams' best players all the time, is about as impressive as you're going to get all things considered. And so for me, he was very clearly based on that definition, which is loose, albeit the most quote-unquote gentlemanly player. If Jacob Slavin does not win this award, which I normally would not care about, but would if he loses, me and you will meet up in New York and start a formal protest in front of the NHL offices because it is warranted. Because we all look at penalty minutes for this award because we don't know any better.

And there he is firing the puck over the glass literally one time. And I just, I'm looking at the rest of the list in terms of penalties and like, okay, like William Carlson, Johnny Goddrow, sure, why not? But I just, I don't know how you don't give this a Slavin. According to Sarah Sivian, he wants this award. The fact he wants this award is the most gentlemanly thing I've ever heard in my life. No one wants this award, but Jacob Slavin does. He needs to start campaigning for it.

He needs to start, like, going on podcasts to talk about why he thinks he should win it. You just start a platform, Jacob Slavin for Lady Bing. Yeah, I mean, for like, listen, for William Carlson to take his few penalties as he does, great. It's valuable for sure for his team. But what he has to do on a nightly basis in terms of who he's playing against, how much he's playing, how much he's out there, what he's exposed to compared to Jacob Slavin is just completely apples and oranges. For Slavin to do what he does is just so wild. My other note on this was, I just find it so freaking funny that last year's winner of this award toss the helmet at an opponent this season and result. Champions aren't born.

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Did it arguably the funniest three second video that's emanated from this NHL season, and it just shows what a dumb award this is. Nathan McKinnon is not gentlemanly, but I just love that he was last year's ladybing winner, and he did that, which was a. amazing and I'm all for it and I think you should do it again. But it was just really funny to think about in that context. I hope it becomes a Lady Bing tradition where Slavin wins and next year he throws like an elbow pad at someone. No, man, Slavin's not going to risk getting a misconduct.

Ten pins? Are you crazy? It's going to drive him crazy. That's going to keep him up all night all year. He's not going to do that. It's way too risky. All right, Don, let's take a quick break here to hear from a sponsor and then we're going to finish up with all the big main awards. All right. let's do the Jack Adams and then we'll save the Norris and the heart for the end.

So for the Jack Adams, I considered four people here. I thought two of them were pretty clearly head and shoulders above the pack, but I'm very curious to see how you approach it because similarly, it is a very tricky award because typically we just, voters seem to just sort by PDO and pick the person at the top of the list because their team exceeded our preseason expectations. and sometimes it's warranted. Other times it's very luck-driven and doesn't necessarily show us that that coach

was the best coach in the world. Might have just been fortunate. But how are you approaching this one and sort of who do you consider for it? Michael Russo asked me about this as well. And I think usually the expectation, you're looking at what was expected of the team and what they did. And that sort of does correlate with PDO. But this is really a which team we expected to not be.

as good, that turned out that way. And all of my candidates, I guess some of them were expected to be pretty good, but just not this good and they exceeded expectations the most. For me, I think there's a clear top three, and that would be Rob the Bod from Carolina, Dean of Basin in Minnesota, and Joel Quinville for Florida. Okay. I mean, Dean Eveson, so the Wild War first in PDO this season. Yeah, he, I mean, if you're viewing it as an organizational award, then sure, convincing

Kiral Kaprizov to come over and signing Camp Talbot were both very good moves. But beyond that, I'd be curious. Not that he did a poor job this season, and obviously they exceeded expectations. I'm just curious what we can specifically point to that he did significantly differently than last season, let's say, that drove these results that they got. To be honest, I'm not. sure. I literally went by which team exceeded expectations most. And a lot of it might be on goldending. Some of it might be on Caprisov. For large stretch of the season, the Minnesota power play

was completely terrible. And it fixed itself at some point. So maybe that was him. But I think he will get some love for this award just based on the fact that no one thought Minnesota would be this good. And I'm obviously a Minnesota Wild Homer. So we knew that part. Well, you should have led with that. Let me give you the coach Q argument then for Quentville. So the Panthers were fourth and point percentage in the league, fifth and goal differential. I think most impressively at five on five, they were third and expected goal share, fourth in high danger attempts, or sorry, seventh in high danger attempt share and fourth in shot share. And the reason why I like him for this award is because I can very clearly point to adjustments

he made in terms of the start of the year. He splits up Barack Cov and Huberto. he incorporated all these new players from, you know, you go down the line, Radco Goudas, Alex Wemberg, Gustav Foresland, Carter Rehagi, Anthony Duclair, Patrick Hornquist, so on and so forth. They bring in Montur and Guseb and Bennett at the deadline and he all of a sudden gets more out of them than we expected. Jack Hahn wrote about this recently in terms of the system they're deploying where they basically have unleashed their defensemen to just sprint up the ice and join the rush. And I think there's just a lot of things to point to there in terms of adjustments they made where we can look at the team they had last year. They obviously changed their personnel, but I don't think anyone would have looked at the personnel they brought in and went, wow, this is all of a sudden going to be a significantly better team for X, Y, and Z reasons. But they clearly made adjustments in terms of how they're using their line, like how they're splitting up their lines and how they're deploying them.

And they clearly got more out of them than they did before. And so for me, beyond the fact that they were obviously very successful in terms of where they finished in the standings, I feel more comfortable. about the fact that we can actually point to something Quainville did as the reason why they were better. Yeah, this is how much I truly care about this ward is I listen to that. I'm like, yeah, that all makes sense. I'm 100% on board, Quenville for Jack Adams. I am with you on literally all of those things. I remember a few years ago when Gustav Forsling was, like if a team put him in the lineup, I would bet against that team because he was that bad. And he's on the top pair with McKenzie Weeger, and crushing it.

And if that's not on coaching, I don't know what it is. He turned Foresling into a stud. And that's been the same story for a lot of newcomers who didn't look that great on the teams they were on before. You look at Sam Bennett, who looks mostly useless in Calgary and is suddenly a legitimate top six center in Florida. And all throughout the lineup, there are stories like that. And I do have to imagine that.

Quindville is a big part of that. The one name we didn't mention here, and I want to mention him because I don't want this podcast to be accused of anti-Pittsburg bias. Mike Sullivan, I just think the organization's ability, like, it's obviously a running joke, Mark, donk, buzz, flibbit, ha-ha-ha-ha. But all jokes aside, the organization's ability to deal with injuries time and time again and insert random players, like my boy redeems the hornah. and get results out of them. And the fact that they finished first in the east, I think you and I were both, well, yeah, we were high on them before the season

just because we felt like their defensive system would lead to good results this year. But for them to finish the year first in the east after the start they had and everything they went through and kind of all the turmoil was impressive to me. And I do think Mike Sullivan is on the higher end of coaches in terms of what he can get out of players and how he can basically work with whatever he's given.

Yeah, for sure. I had him on my short list. I also had Jared Bednar and Sheldon Keefe just because both those teams have just been incredible puck possession teams. And I think those are systems employed by the coaches that have made it so. I personally saw how terrible Leaves looked under Babcock and it's night and day with Sheldon Keefe. And with Colorado, they had that insane run at one point where they were getting like 69% of the expect of the expect goals every night. Yeah. So I got to give credit to Bennar for that. Obviously, the lineup is stacked, but I think he plays a big role in them looking that good because they also dealt with injuries during that time frame and we're still chugging along at that high rate. Certainly. And I think just it's very clear there's organizational buy-in from top down in terms of the players they're targeting, how they're going to use them and all that in terms of like the vision of what they expect in their team. So I'm with you there. All right. Let's do the two big ones here. The Norris. Okay. So, where do you want to start with this one? Because I do think in terms of like considerations for people that shouldn't necessarily be top three, but had awesome seasons as defensemen and deserve some sort of love, like the list is, is pretty long, I think, relatively speaking. It's really long, yeah. It's really long and I still would not have Victor had been on it.

I'm going to start there. Well, we need to, I think the context of like, it's very clear and it was a report. reported recently by Chris Johnston, that he's not playing any, like, he's not anywhere near 100%, and it's very clear. And so, you know, I think we saw last postseason, for example, what, like, a healthy headman can do and is capable of in terms of dictating the game. And I think people still have that in their minds. And we need to sort of differentiate that from the results he actually put on paper this

season because those two did not line up. Yeah. And until his injury, he definitely belonged in the conversation, whether he was leading or not, is up for debate. But him playing injured for a month definitely makes his case a lot worse this year. And it's admirable that he tried, I suppose, if you're one of those people. But he was not good for a month. And I think that does hurt his case where I don't think you can ignore the nine or ten other defensemen who were much stronger this year and did it for the entire year. Yeah. Okay, so let's let's rattle off through these. These are names that I consider, not necessarily that wound up in my top three, because it's obviously more than three names, but the people that I considered when I was compiling my list.

Kael McCarr, Adam Fox, Charlie McAvoy, Dougie Hamilton, Shea Theodore, Darnelnerz, Jacob Chikern, Jeff Beatry, and then Adam Pelham. Am I missing anyone that deserves some sort of consideration for this award from that list? I had two others. Well, I had both Islanders defensemen because I think it's just difficult to separate that top pair. I had a clear top four and then five I'm sort of wrestling with. But I have McKenzie Uygar just because ever since Eklad got injured, he legitimately has looked like one of the best defense in the league. And even before he got injured, he was certainly up there with how he played on that top pair.

and then I have Devontaves from Colorado because, I mean, Colorado's defense, that top three is insane and he's put up that value. And obviously some of that is playing with a strong team, but I think he's worthy of consideration for the season he's had. Yep. I'm with you there. You know, it's funny, he's deserving of the award I struggled with separating Pelick from Pulock. I do think in terms of who's driving a defense, it is Adam Pelick. I have canvassed various voters around the league, and Adam Pelick will definitely get Norris votes, not for first, but he will get love. And that's music to my ears and also a testament to how far we've come in terms of our evaluation of the award in the position, which is awesome.

I know people complain about that we just sort by points and go that way, but there's clearly more nuance to it. And Adam Pelick getting top five votes this season, which he will from a lot of people, is awesome. it is amazing how far the movement has come along because if you suggested voting for a 10-point defenseman as a legitimate top five guy like even like two or three years ago you'd probably be laughed out of the room and this time around people are starting to pay attention to that stuff they see what a incredible pair the islanders have with him and booleck and they're recognizing how much impact his defense brings to the Islanders and how much their identity is shaped around Adam Pelick and what he brings the table. And he is definitely in consideration for me. I think I have

a very clear top four in that fifth spot will probably keep me up for the next week thing about who to put there. I'm not saying this guy should be in the top five, but one of my favorite stats this season, the year Jacob Chikrin had is hilarious for anyone that owned him in fantasy hockey. They probably are aware of this and enjoyed it greatly and probably won championships in whatever league they played in. But he scored 12% of the Ares one of the coyotes' total goals this season. I believe no other defenseman was even over 9%.

I think Darnalner was second at like 8. something. He took 28% of the coyote's team shot attempts when he was on the ice. So they were basically straight up like pre-Brent-Bern style. Just like every time he was on the ice, it was just, okay, let's just give the puck to Jacob. Chikrin and he's going to shoot and hopefully he'll score or he'll do something. And, you know, that's obviously a testament to both the team around him and the season he had himself. And I think, you know, banking too much on individual shooting talent at that position is very risky in terms

of prognosticating what the next year is going to look like for them. But just like in a vacuum this year he had offensively was pretty remarkable. Like I just think like certainly kind of came out of nowhere. I was just like, wow, Jacob Chikrin was just doing everything for the coyotes this season. Yeah, he, he's not as high on the list for me, but he's definitely one of the guys that's next up and up for consideration just for how insane his goal scoring prowess was. It seemed like every time I was watching Kyoy's game, Jacob Chikrin was lining up for a slap shot and scoring. And he, he was really fun to watch for that reason, but I think we both agree that you probably don't want that as your main strategy for a defenseman to say it's,

Jacob Chikrin time and taking 28% of the shots. A hundred percent, I agree. I just think that one game in particular that he had against the Anaheim Ducks, where he had the hat trick with the overtime winner, was one of the just best individual performances I saw in terms of like, what the hell is going on here? And so I don't want to give some love and recognition to it. But yeah, certainly risky, risky business for a team to be relying on that. And not in the top five here. So give me the top four then that you have. and let's work our way through that.

I think it is very hard right now to separate Adam Fox and Kail McCar. I've been obviously on the Adam Fox bandwagon all year, but I think his main advantage over McCar is he's played more games. And McCar has been more impactful in the games he's played and sort of just balancing total value versus value per game. And I think the NBA has it right where they look at per game and how impactful a player was through that lens, whereas hockey, it's all about the total tally.

So it's going to be a tough decision between those two, but I think those are the firm top two. And then after them, I would say Dougie Hamilton and Shay Theodore for me. I'm interested to hear that you don't have Charlie McEvoy higher. He is probably the best 5-1-5 events in the league at the moment. And considering how many minutes he played, with some random kid picked off off the street this year is remarkable. And I might think long and hard about putting him there because of that.

But I think there is some merit to having value on the power play, which he does not bring the table. And as much as that is a bit of a scam for defensemen because it's easy to pick up power play value just by simply existing on the power play. The other four defensemen ahead of him have that while also being very strong at five five as well. Yeah. No, I see where you're coming from that.

I think it's fair. I just thought, like, context-wise in terms of what he was working with, both from a partner perspective, but also, like, they used 13 defensemen this year because they had a bunch of injuries as well. And so they were just cycling through guys, and he was really the only constant. I believe he played, like, almost five minutes more than any other regular Bruins' defensemen this season and didn't let his underlying numbers suffer at all. in fact, they were remarkable, as you said, he was probably the best 5-1-5 defense in the league.

So I wanted to give him some love. But, yeah, in terms of these top three to five, you really are, you have to nitpick, right? Because there's such good players. And if one is comparable at 5-1-5, but then adding significantly more special teams value, then we need to consider that. Yeah. And I was actually just writing my Bruins-Caps preview, so I have the numbers fresh in my mind. But McAvoy did play a lot with Matt Griswick this year, and that helped with his strong numbers,

because that was probably one of the best pairs this season. But even when he was without Grizzlik, McAvoy still had a 55% XG this year, which is insane when you realize that that is a lot of Jeremy Lawson moments. Yeah, some Urho Vakanain in there as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so Macar versus Fox, because I do agree that they're the top two. With Macar, I struggle because I think that his A-plus game

is the best I saw from any defensemen this season, like his ability to just control a game all over the ice is unbelievable. And I think we also need to separate ourselves from like, because he's going to be doing ridiculous stuff in this postseason coming up here. And it's going to be a lot of, oh, my God, can you believe this guy? People think this guy isn't his best defenseman. And it is a regular season award, so we need to say that up front. The 42 games is, you know, it provides less value for his team compared to what Fox played.

but when he was on the ice do we agree that he was the best defenseman? I think so when he was the one argument in Fox's favor is that he plays some of the absolute toughest minutes in the league and McCar does not

to my knowledge. So that is one consideration that helps make McCar look better but I mean when he was on the ice he's the best defense in the league. I don't think there's a question about that. Yeah, the fact of the hazard just like in the 60s in terms of all of their on ice shares, a 5-15 with them on the ice is, is pretty ridiculous. But yeah, I think if you're comparing what they have to work with, like what Fox did was pretty

crazy as well. And I think, like, I don't care that it seemed to make the playoffs. It was obviously a very unique circumstance. First and foremost, they would have made it in any other division. But even beyond that, it doesn't ultimately matter because this is an individual award in a team sport. And so there's only so much any one defenseman can do. And what Fox did was right up there with what any other defenseman did. So, yeah, it's basically a coin flip between those two for me.

Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, then let's go to the heart. Let's wrap this thing up there. It's Carter McDavid's world and we're all just living in it, right? Like, I think Matthews is pretty clearly second. And then I think there's a very interesting discussion for how you round out the finalists with who's third there. And there's some really good candidates and names.

But I just don't understand. I know you were tweeting about this as well. I really do not get people's desire to see a player get 100 points in 53 games or whatever he did. And they're an instant reaction to be, oh, how can I discredit this in some way? Like, how are you not just enjoying what we're seeing both in terms of the production and also how he's getting it in terms of him being able to do stuff physically on the ice that we have never seen before because he's an absolute freak? Am I allowed to surround this podcast? Yeah, just go for it.

All right. To anyone discrediting Connor McDavid's season this year for any reason whatsoever, shut the fuck up and turn your TV off. Don't watch hockey more. Go do something else because this is one of the greatest hockey seasons ever that you're witnessing and your first instinct is to be a gigantic baby about it. What's the point? What are you doing here? Yeah, like, why are you following hockey? caring about it if you can't get excited about this. And if not even get excited about this, if you don't care about it for whatever reason,

like if you're a flames fan and you're upset about it, I get it. There's no need. Just move on. Just scroll down your timeline or just close your Twitter. Log off. Like I did. So he has a 30 plus point lead on anyone that hasn't shared the ice with him this season. He has 82 primary points.

Next best are Dr. Ceddle with 59 and then Matthews and Marshawn with 55. he has a primary point on 46.1% of all Oilers goals this season since 2007. That is easily the best that we have access to. I think OV when he scored 65 goals had 42.4 and McDavid in 2018, 19 at 42% as well. So it's just unparalleled. And in terms of the arguments against it and trying to discredit it, it's like, oh, let's see him do this first the rest of the league.

Well, what did we see him do from basically 2015 to 2020 when he scored more points than anyone else in the league while playing against every other team. Like, I don't, this isn't some one-year aberration. I mean, in terms of the degree to what he did on a points per game basis, sure, but acting as if this isn't some all-time great that is just having a remarkable season, like we've seen him have success against everyone around the league. I really don't view that as an argument against it. People are so sure that the North Division is the worst division.

And I just, I don't see how they get to that argument. have you seen any statistical argument that that is even remotely true? Like beyond baby shaving off a handful of points, let's say. Like, it really seems like, yeah, they might be a little bit worse defensively, but not to the point where all of a sudden we're taking 25 to 30 points off of his total and kind of making him closer to their pack. It'll be like three points at most. I mean, if he was in the West Division, there are five awful teams in there.

what do you think he'd do there? He'd do the same thing. If he was in the east, he got to play Buffalo eight times. He's getting like 40 points against Buffalo alone, probably. I just don't understand the galaxy braining regarding McDavid. Just enjoy the greatness. Yeah. Oh, there's been so much galaxy braining. There's been a lot. I tweeted out how he had three or four points and pretty much all like nine of his last 10 games or something. And there was a lot of, oh, well, he's going to lose in round one or two of the playoffs. It's like, what does that have anything to do with this accomplishment? Like, this is, what he's doing is just remarkable. And I am personally enjoying it. And I would recommend everyone does as well, because it's very cool.

I have never watched so many Oilers games in my life. I've watched all of them, I think. Like, anytime the Oilers are on, I'm like, I'm tuning in. I'm watching Connor. He's so good. He's so fun to watch two. Like every goal is a good time. Yeah, he is, as a wise man at once said, he's a freak. He's the fastest kid alive. I certainly, every other division had three really, really bad teams, right? Like New Jersey, Buffalo, Philly, and I'm L.A., San Jose, Columbus, Chicago, Detroit.

He would have feasted on all those teams. He might not have 102 or three points everywhere he has now, but he certainly would have been running away with a scoring title. And I think that's all there needs to be said. about that. So then we get into how we round this out. And I think we both agree that Matthews, you know, in a normal year, him scoring 40 goals in 50 games or whatever he's played so far would easily be the leading story and be, you know, the focus of everything. But just because of what McDavid's done, it isn't. But it's good enough to get him second. How do we round this out?

Give me like your three, four, five in terms of the names you're considering and who we should consider as the most valuable players for a team. I'm a little shocked Nathan McKinnon is flying under the radar this year. I would think he's a slam dunk for number three, and that would round things out nicely because I think before the season started, most people would have thought McDavid, McKinnon Matthews are going to be the three best players this year, and I thought that they were.

And maybe it's because of the team he plays on, but I mean, his five-on-five impacts were incredible. he had a ton of points. He was right up there, and he's just as exciting, not just as exciting, but he's also extremely exciting to watch as well. And I think he should be right there behind McDavid-Matthews. And after that, that's where it gets a bit tricky for me. You can make a legitimate case for the linemates for those three players

with Miko Randen, Mitch Marner, and Leon Drysidal. Brad Marchand was amazing for Boston this year. Alex Barkov did it all for Florida as well. And I think those are the five I would be considering for the final two spots. But I think McGinnon is a slam dunk for me behind the top two. Yeah, I think part of it might just be expectations because he was so ridiculous in the postseason to the point where we went like a bit overboard in terms of proclaiming him as the best player in the world. And then he started off relatively slow compared to those outside expectations.

But yeah, he had a 15 to 20 game stretch there where he was like, putting up 1.75 points per game or something and his season totals are absurd. I think, yeah, it's a little tough to separate him from just how good the abs have been across the board. And maybe that might hurt McCar a little bit in the Norris discussion as we talked about as well, where the team around them is so good that when we, especially when we're trying to fill out the rest of this, I think people will want to give a lot of love to, you know, Cindy Crosby for getting the penguins into first place in the east or, you know, Mark Stone for the year he had, or Sasha Barkov, as we talked about in the Selke.

So I think that's where people are coming from with going McDavid-Matthews-1-2 and then trying to pencil someone else in the third, that it was perceived to kind of be carrying a lesser supporting cast. Yeah. And I do get that argument. For me, it's most valuable means most value. And McKinnon was the third most valuable to me. I don't care if Brandon was just as good.

I don't care if McCar was a. Norris worthy player. It doesn't matter to me that those things happened. I don't care how deep the abs are. McKinnon was the driving force for that team. And I do recall the McKinnon conversation for the season, how he might be the best player in the world. And I am genuinely grateful for those conversations happening

because I don't think we would have got the McDavid season we did without them. I think pettiness drives top players so much. And McDavid saw the conversations. He saw his team. win the Hart trophy and the Art Rolls Trip of the year before. He was a man on a mission and mission accomplished

at this point because there should be no doubt that he's the best and... That's that. That's that. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair. All right, let's get out of here. I think we covered everything. That was fun. Hopefully, people feel a bit

of closure on the regular season and we can now shift towards the playoffs and get look excited about that and look forward to that. So I'll let you plug some stuff in that vein. What have you been working on and where can people check out your work and give us all that good stuff? Right now I'm writing playoff previews for every single series, as I usually do. A nice little 3,000-word deep dive on how good each team is, the players, the season stats, the matchups this year, which I think are really interesting because

we're getting a decent size sample on how teams play against each other. And it's a nice primer before the playoff start, especially for fans who only paid attention to their division this year. All right, that's going to be for today's episode, The Hockey P.D.O.cast, as always, it was a blast of picked Dom's brain on stuff. Love having him on the show because of that. I think he is one of the most thoughtful people in the game. And hopefully we delivered with today's conversation.

Hopefully you enjoyed it. and got something useful from it. I think there's a lot more to the awards conversation beyond just who we think is going to win. I love actually kind of getting into what the awards actually entail and sort of what we should be looking for and how we should be evaluating all the candidates involved. And so hopefully we covered all that. And ultimately, like where I stand on this is there's just so much stuff to juggle

and consider right now in terms of there being a ridiculous amount of talent in the league right now. And we're blessed in that regard. And there's a ton of players having seasons worth. celebrating and so you know you can't really go wrong in a lot of cases and that's a good thing. If you liked what you heard from us today, please take a minute to leave us a quick little rating and review. A lot of you've done so already and each one is greatly appreciated. If you haven't yet, it's really easy to do and it helps us a lot. So thank you in advance for doing so. Now we can shift our sights to the postseason. We're just set to start this coming

weekend and we're going to have some previews on the podcast here coming up really soon to get you ready for that and highlight some of the matchups on what to look for and all that stuff. So those are some of my favorite shows to do every year and hopefully we're going to be able to have some fun with it. So look out for that coming on the feed very shortly. All right, man. Well, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to do this and I'm sure we'll have you on sometime soon down the road. So until then, enjoy the playoffs and we'll chat soon. You as well. Thanks for having me. The hockey PDEO cast with Dim Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on

SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash HockeyPedioCast.