The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 397: An Avalanche of Talent

Episode Date: May 29, 2021

Jack Han joins the show to discuss the Colorado Avalanche, why they've been steamrolling teams so far this season, and what we can learn from their success. Why we're interested in learning from the Avalanche Adjustments they've made to their playing style Having good players, and getting the most out of them Their improved defensive metrics this season The interplay between defense and offense Aggressively defending the blueline, forcing dump-ins The 'neutral zone regroup' Snowball effect of shifts and concept of momentum Role coach plays on highly talented teams Creating environment that young players can step into Their team-building approach Respond to playoff disappointment and getting lucky If you haven't yet, please go take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. If you're busy and don't feel like writing anything, it's all good. Just hit the 5-star button. Each one counts, and helps us out. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a note about why you recommend people check the show out. Thanks for the help! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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My name is Dimitri Philpovich. name is my good buddy Jack Han. Jack, what's going on, man? Great to be back, Tim. Great to be back. I'm excited. Yeah, we haven't done it in a while. I think we did it a couple months ago, but I feel like these shows are always, I mean, you know, we use your expertise in terms of video and sort of outside the box ideas, but people always seem to enjoy the shows when I have you on. So I had to get you back on during this, like, little low between round one and round two. Yeah, and we're here to talk about the abs. Is that right?

Well, we are. So let me, let me, let me, let me tee us up here for anyone that's listening. They're like, why are these guys going to be doing 40 to 45 minutes on the abs or however long the show goes? And first off, when I was doing my round one previews with Ryan Lambert, we didn't get to talk about the West Division because the scheduling, when we recorded, we still didn't know who the abs are going to play and how those West matchups were going to shake out. So I promised people that we would talk more about them in the future. they were so impressive in round one, which was one of my biggest takeaways from watching round one, when they just steamroll the blues,

and they've been done for like a week now or whatever, so I've had plenty of time to think about them and write about them. And so while I was watching them and writing them for this piece that I did for EPier ringside, I messaged you, and I was like, all right, Jack, like, I need you to watch some abs tape because we need to do a full podcast discussing what they're doing,

how they're so effective, what's going on here, because I find them so interesting. And so the reason why I want to, to do this and why I'm so interested in them is because I really want to learn from them because it seems like they've been the gold standard this year in terms of both how you watch them in terms of the eye test but also analytically their numbers are just absolutely ludicrous yeah and for me it's it was really interesting because uh you know Eric Parnas has been been with the abs for I would say almost five years now if I'm if I'm correct um and when I

went to visit him in December 2016, they were in the middle of possibly the worst season in franchise history. Like I get there and basically you know, I watch him practice. I watch him play against the Florida Panthers and nothing

could go right whatsoever. Like McKinnon, I think he had about 55 points in 75 games, which is pretty good, but, you know, not... Yeah, he shot like 7% that year. Yeah, like, he he was he was kind of fighting it uh matt dishean was melting down he wanted out uh their number

one dmette was tyson barry who as we found out subsequently is really a player with a lot of warts and a player you have to use a certain way as you're wearing a toronto is that a toronto me place or yeah yeah yeah it's it's a it's a leif's development group and um there were trotty out guys like joel colborne uh fedore tutin scored in that in the game i was at Patrick Wirikosh, who had kind of been an analytics starling, but he got kind of pretty severely exposed there. Eric Gelena, who had some pretty good coursey numbers and really sheltered usage in New Jersey,

got really exposed over it. Like, that was a team four and a half years ago that could do nothing right. And now all of a sudden, they've kind of turned over the entire roster except for maybe four or five guys, and it seems like they can do nothing wrong. And for me, that whole process is fascinating.

Well, we'll talk about it more later on the team building side of things and coaching and we'll loop all of that in. You hook line and sync and all the listeners, the P.O.cast, when you mentioned Eric Schellenenai and Patrick Weircock. I mean, that's two throwback names right there. I love it. Yeah, so when I watch them, the thing that I think about is what can we learn from them? Like, how do they get so dominant? Because whenever we're seeing stuff like this, I'm always sort of thinking ahead in terms of what's applicable or replicable here for others. And a lot of it obviously keeps coming back to they have a lot of awesome players. Like they have McKinnon, Randon, Landisog, McCar, Taves, Gerard, so on and so forth. And very few teams, if any, are blessed with that type of personnel. And so no matter how smart of a coach or front office you have, you can optimize your playing

style all you want. But at the end of the day, if you don't have the personnel, it's only going to take you so far. So I completely acknowledge that side of things. But the reason why I do think there is something here for us to mind for a few future use and to really discuss is because they clearly made tweaks to their system even over this past year that led to different results, right? Like their underlying numbers just completely changed from even last season when they were

still winning a bunch of games and putting up high scoring totals and looking awesome. But they've clearly optimized their personnel in some way, particularly defensively, where they're just getting different results than they were last season. So I think part of that is just their core player is getting better. Like McKinnon is, he's kind of like right in his prime. But I think every offseason he's kind of, you know, doing the Crosby or the, the Barzell thing, which he's learning from other players and picking stuff up and working on stuff. So he's getting better.

You know, Landis Cog is, he's kind of in his late peak. He's still a really good player. Ranson is getting better. And obviously, on D, they went and got. Devon Taves, who's been a big addition. Carol McCarrow is getting better. Sam Jarrar is getting better. So it's almost like kind of organically,

their best players are still kind of, you know, in that positive range of their age curves where they're going to get better just kind of by doing their thing. Right. But also from a tactics point of view, for me, I, you know,

I don't have a lot of insight on how they actually produce those results because I'm not in other meetings. I don't know what the kind of that, the the the uh the internal kind of uh plan is right but when i when i look at the way that they play and you know i obviously i was in toronto uh i watch a lot of tampa and it's almost like colorado's kind of leapfrog both of those teams in terms of how they create off the rush because they weren't afraid to do some things a little bit differently defensively right which is to say it's much more aggressive, right?

That's what I've kind of noticed. Yeah, and Tampa, they do play quite aggressively, but it's almost like, you know, one of the basic tenets of hockey coaching is as a coach, you want your players to play stop and start into the D zone because that allows them to, you know, stay tired to their checks to react to, you know, whether it's a shot or rebound, a puck battle.

You want them to hold their spots essentially. Whereas if you watch Colorado play, they never put it in park or neutral or even first gear. Like everybody's kind of swarming and they're always in movement, which means as soon as they're able to force a turnover, you go from second year to third to fourth and now are you off the races. Whereas, you know, if I think back to the Leafs when I was there, a lot of what we try to do is the same as Colorado.

We try to play quickly with possession, use the change of sides, stretch the ice out, you know, make skill plays. But the one thing, ultimately I think that held us back was in the D zone, we were very stop and start, which meant that it was difficult then for us to get going

and for us to really create kind of those high-end like breakaway threats or two-on-one or get the, weak side B moving very quickly. Like it just happened a little bit slower. It's almost like if you go to a Costco and, you know, you're buying a bunch of stuff, your shopping cart's really heavy. If you give that cart a little bit of a push to get it going, then it's really,

it's much easier to kind of have a go where you want to go afterwards, right? Whereas if you're pushing that car from a standstill, you got way more resistance. That's kind of like what it is. Well, and so we tend to kind of just throw out the term of like, you know, It's the old saying, but the best defense is a good offense because it implies that if you have the puck and you're further away from your net, you're less likely to get scored on. But I do think there is a bit of a balance there in terms of defining what that actually means because if, especially in the modern game, the best offense is for the most part of 5-1-5, a rush offense because we know you're more likely to score if you're creating these transition opportunities where you have a three-on-two. two or a two on one or you're kind of creating before the opposing defense can get

set under a defensive structure. But we also know that if you get into playing that style of hockey, that opens you up to giving up more opportunities the other way in terms of conceding counterattacks. And so in that sense, maybe the best offense or the best defense isn't a good offense because then all of a sudden you're getting into more of a track meet, high tempo. You're creating a lot, but you're also giving up a lot the other way. And sometimes we see that with these young, exciting teams where there's a lot of give and take for the Colorado Avalanche. I'm very curious and really sort of pressing down on how they've been able to not only improve their offense while also significantly improving all their defensive metrics.

I think we should say contextually it helps that last year they were playing in a pretty competitive Central Division. And this year they played where they just got the feast on these California teams in Arizona. But St. Louis is generally a pretty good team. and they just completely dismantle them in those four games, outscoring them 20 to 7 and keeping up all of those 60 plus percent shot metrics and chance metrics and everything. So that's what I'm curious about here. Like how do we sort of tackle that idea of the combination of defense and offense

and creating more while giving up less? So if we accept that Colorado and Florida play a similar type of game, which I think they do, They're both very, very rush oriented. They use a whole ice. They like to possess the puck. And actually, you know, this is where just having better players and especially better defense can come in because, you know, Florida was able to have, you know,

surprisingly good results this season with a D group that's maybe not super high end, especially after Eggblad went down. and then you see in the playoffs, they were still able to drive play against Tampa, but once or twice or three times a game, they would just get burned and that was it, right? They were out in six. Whereas Colorado playing a very similar style,

they beat the Blues in Four simply because their Ds are able to skate the whole ice to make those reeds and, you know, to successfully move the puck and, you know, put the puck in St. Louis's net instead of having it come back in their face. well yeah i think the goal tending certainly lends itself to that as well i think we often just sort of disrespect

philip grubara a little bit because he plays behind this great team and because he got injured last postseason but the reality is he's a pretty good goalie and i think that lack of stability you saw it in that florida series where every time they did have a bit of a breakdown it was in the back of their net whereas andre vasselowski was bailing out uh tampa bay even though florida was creating more high-danger looks overall. Yeah. I mean, we'll see how good Spencer Knight is. Maybe Florida has found a solution there.

No, he was good. I mean, when he got the chance, but unfortunately, it was a bit too late. Yeah. And once again, you know, when you do have Devon Taves or Kail McCar or, you know, Sam Gerard or Ryan Graves or Bowen Byron, like, those players, like, they're fast. enough to take a chance and then get back. Whereas a lot of Florida's D's couldn't do that. Like McKenzie Wigger, like he's such a smart and skilled player,

but if he pinches and misses, like that's an on-man rush. If Ratko's Gouda's pinches and misses, like that's an odd man rush. Like half the guys on their on Florida's decor, you know, like they have one bullet in the chamber. And if they fire it and, you know, they don't put the beast down, then it's over. I mean, you probably dealt with this a lot as a coach in terms of just trying to sort of think about hockey as more of a fluid sort of free-flowing sport and kind of having a motion offense. That's what I see with this abs team where obviously if you have a kale McCarr sprinting up the ice with the puck and carrying it himself deep in the zone, he's good enough of a skater to eventually get back into the play. and especially if he's doing, you know, the thing where he's funneling back up the middle of the ice and optimizing his route, he can get back defensively.

But it kind of takes a team effort of being like, okay, well, now someone needs to cover his spot and kind of hang back a bit. And what that led to in that Blue Series was, you know, part of it is a fluke because scoring from the point is difficult. But all of a sudden, you're getting these like Nathan McKinnon shots from the point during 5-on-5 where you typically wouldn't expect him to be because he's all of a sudden sort of cycling through to that open area of the ice. and that's what Tampa Bay does a lot well, right? Like they don't have a net front guy. They're constantly moving around trying to sort of change the geometry with the offensive zone. And that's what I feel like when I watch Colorado.

It's like they're not so rigid in their structure of being like, okay, the two defensemen need to be at the points. The forwards need to be in certain areas, the ice. And the other team knows where they're going to be because that makes you so much easier to defend against. Yeah. And for me, one thing I always found important was not to have, fours and Ds be apart too much, whether it's, you know, in meetings or in practice drills or,

you know, if we think back to the Russian five or, you know, before that, the Soviet national team with the Laryana of line, what the Teesov and Kazatana, like those guys were together all the time and they talked about hockey and they trained together. And, you know, they were really a unit. So the fours and the Ds on that unit, they were on the same page all the time. So now, whether it's Macar or Gerard or Taves, if they make an aggressive read, well, McKinnon sees that and he knows, okay, well, I'm going to go back and play defense for a little bit,

but within five seconds, like something is going to happen and I can skate down on the puck. So there's not that, first of all, there is a high level of trust, the second, you know, nobody's pressing. It's just the plays there for the D's to pinch or to attack. And then recognized employees, with Custom Ink. Show customer appreciation with Custom Ink. Outfit your teams with Custom

Ink. Easily add your logo to your favorite products and brands at Customink.com. Make Custom Ink your custom gear partner with great customer service, quality products, and all in pricing, along with personalized help when you need it and an easy-to-use website when you don't. All backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Do it all today at customink.com. the forwards, they just kind of reroute, they backfill, and then they know that within a few seconds, they're going to get a look of their own. Whereas, you know, if you try to introduce this maybe with other teams,

especially kids, let's say, the Ds are going to go in, and then the Fords, either they're not going to trust their teammates, or maybe they're going to get greedy, and they're going to go in too. And that's really where you have these really huge breakdowns. You know, I'm thinking about the Leafs 2 on OLAF. night that they gave Montreal. And that's kind of what happened because Bogosian went way in. He ended up in the right corner. And then, you know, Gauchena kind of rushed to play to the

middle. And that's, that's all it takes, basically. Well, you know, sticking with this defensive theme, I think this might be sort of one of those things where you say it and it on the surface sounds so obvious that it's kind of stupid. But I do think there's some merit to it in this case where I honestly think part of why Colorado's defensive metrics are as good as they are, is because they just spend such a low amount of time in a defensive zone. And the reason why I bring that up as interesting to me is because some of these more traditionally dominant defensive teams that we've seen over the past couple years, whether it's the Barry Trots Islanders or the Dallas Stars over the past couple years on route to the Stanley Cup final,

the reason why they're so good defensively is because they basically turn that middle of the ice, whether it's the slot or the area in front of their net into a no-fly zone. Like they're just, if you look at their heat maps, they're not giving up any looks from there. They're strategically pushing the other team to the outside and being like, we're going to concede shots from two or three areas in the ice and our goal he knows where it's coming from. And it's going to make it much easier for them to stop those bucks because they're prepared

for them. For the aives, they're essentially just not like they're not spending any of that time in the defensive zone. It's not like they're giving the other team looks from far out. They're just being like, okay, we're going to be really aggressive in the neutral zone and at the blue line. We're going to force you to dump it in. And then we're going to use our talent to go back, retrieve it, and instantly go back attacking downhill in terms of like a fast break transition opportunity.

And that's what's been remarkable to watch for me. It's that they've been able to have that plan and then actually execute it because I do think that form of defending is pretty rare. Yeah. And if you watch, you know, most good teams through hockey history, the way that they defend, is they want you to stop. Whereas once again, as I mentioned before, Colorado, their strategy is they want to match your speed, they want to force a turnover,

and then they want to, you know, start with a speed differential on you. So they're in third gear, you're in second and you're playing catch up. So it's a bit of a different line set. And once again, basically every single coach I've worked with over the years, they were more of the mind of, you know,

defending means you stop, you hit your spot, you get into structure, and then you wait for the other team to maybe shoot into a shin pad or present the products you can poke it away or cycle and then jump on that. But it's always from a static position. Whereas if you watch Colorado, maybe it kind of happened organically, but if you watch them play now, they're not really interested in stopping. They want to be moving slightly quicker than you, close, attach, and then force a turn.

There's no stopping. I'm going to give you some quick stats here for a second because I was interested in it. So I tracked that series. And at 5-1-5 in those four games, the avalanche defensemen were targeted for the zone entries by Blues attackers 140 times. They gave up just 52 carries and they broke up 24 of them. In comparison, the Blues defense gave up 102 carries to avalanche forwards. Sorry, they gave up 102 carries on 166 attempts. So it was just, it was night and day.

Now, the issue with that is the Blues, even on their best. day want to get the puck deep and basically just cycle and forecheck and kind of keep you pin down on defensive zone. And that was a horrible matchup against this abs team that basically doesn't let you do that and has a defenseman that can just retrieve it and break it out. I'm really curious to see what that would look like and whether that aggression would continue against a dominant puck carrying team that could sort of match them in terms of that ability because, you know, I remember you and I talked about this in our end when we were

discussing how Florida, Tampa Bay would shake up before that series. started. And a big thing that I wanted to see was Florida plays this aggressive style. Would they be able to continue that even if they got burned by Tampa Bay skill a little bit? And I think they did. It just didn't wind up working out because they didn't have the firepower to match them. But for Colorado, I'd be very curious to see whether that sort of aggression in terms of forcing dumpins and dislodging pucks from opposing puck carriers would continue against one of the best four or five teams that can carry the puck all the time through the neutral zone. So I'm not sure when they're going to match up against a team like that, but it'd be really fascinating to see

what those numbers look like. Yeah. Like I'm thinking more of whether they play Minnesota or Vegas, and neither of those two teams, you know, are maybe as good at carrying the puck as you described. So it probably wouldn't hinge on something else, at least for the next round. But, you know, maybe they if they play Tampa Bay or Carolina or, you know, Toronto or who have. You We're recording this on like a Friday morning, so we don't, we don't even know who they're playing in round two. That's why we're not talking about specific matchups, but I just thought it was an interesting highling. So, okay, so when they do get the puck, though, and this is something I brought up to you as well when we were watching some of their tape, that neutral zone regroup that they do. I love it so much.

And I highly encourage people when they're watching Av's games coming up here. Key in on that because it sounds so obvious, but so few teams do it. I'm not sure why. I wonder how much of it is just like you kind of, you don't, I don't know. I think it's just maybe the conservative nature of the sport, but it seems like it's something that everyone should be doing where they have these long offensive zone shifts as soon as the other team gets the puck, especially in like the second period with a long change or maybe late in the game when the

legs start feeling a bit heavy. They just want to dump the puck out and go for a quick line change because they're super tired. And instead of letting them do so, the avalanche just pick up the puck and instantly, whether it's Taves or Gerard or McCar, one of them is just sprinting full speed up the ice and converting it into a rush opportunity immediately. And I love seeing that because they're just at least like two to four times a game just getting easy rush opportunities that they otherwise wouldn't

if they weren't as sort of purposeful with their attack. So the thing about that, I think it's a little bit counterintuitive because when you watch them, it looks like they're going very fast. So let's say, you know, there's one. clip that you show me where I think it was McCar with Devon Taves and the bench was on the Carr's side on the right side of the ice and then

so they come out they regroup the other team changes and then McCar goes D to D to Taves and instead of either dumping it in or stretching it to the forward Taves just took off and made the entry himself and they got a good shift out of that because because

it was a D-Man that made the entry while the three-fours are free to find lanes and find space and get available. level, right? And, and we see this and we, and we think, okay, well, Colorado's playing really fast and they're really, they're being really aggressive. But actually, it's almost like, as a D-man in that spot, you've got to slow it down mentally because your first instinct on most teams is I want to get to the red line, rim it in, or I want to shoot it out of, at one of my fours stick blades so you can tip it in and then we can go on the forecheck.

So actually, you got to slow down for like a quarter of a second. You got to take a breath and then carry the puck. And a lot of players don't have that poise. And honestly, most NHL coaches don't try to instill that kind of poise either. It's just like, you know, pound it, get it in. Maybe you come for a change. Let's let's have the forwards chase the puck and then try to hem the other team in that way. Well, it's funny.

I think of that as kind of a snowball effect that the best teams in the league take advantage of. I guess that is in a way that's trying to quantify the concept of momentum that we think about in games, where it's like, oh, this team has had three or four good shifts in a row. The reason why that's happening in cases like this is because the fresh players coming on the ice for the blues in this specific instance are desperately scrambling into the play to try and defend this rush that the abs have. So they're not actually starting their shift from a neutral position or even an advantageous one. They're already having to defend and chase the puck as opposed to if they're the players that had come off before them had left them with the puck in a better situation where they were able to spend the first 10 seconds of the shift settling in and then doing something creative. Instead, they're like, you see them.

I think it's like Toro Krug in that instance. I'm telling you about where they're like, he's like desperately sprinting to try and cover Taves as he jumps off the bench. And that's obviously a very crappy decision to be in. And if the play keeps going and you have three, four, five shifts in a row like that, all of a sudden that's sort of the concept of momentum. Yeah. And, you know, to that example, if Tori Krug is flexing out to cover Devon Taves, who's covering the next ask for that that's filling in?

Right, right. The ass forward is coming in down the gut with a huge speed differential. And if there's a rebound or if there's some kind of a second chance, like, it's going to be tough for the blues. So this idea of momentum, I think, is really relevant because it's starting to be something that both stats people and coaches are starting to agree on. So this year, Michael Blake McCurdy kind of contradicted himself because a few years ago, he said, well, this stuff doesn't matter.

And then he kind of went back and used another methodology, and he found out that, yes, well, it actually does matter a little bit. and then he was able to do a presentation on how much that mattered, which, which is, you know, it's not life-changing, but it does make a difference. And this is something that coaches I've been talking about for years. It's the idea of having the other team in, you know, pushing the play-down eyes, maybe us even getting an offensive zone change and then being tired. Yeah, but what most other coaches do when they say that is they get their players to just dump,

the puck in and then it's like, oh, let's get it deep and let's hem them in that way. And this is an entirely different. This is actually a much more functional way of doing so because you're creating while keeping the other team chasing the puck as opposed to just dumping it in and going for a change and getting fresh skaters out there to for a check and trying to keep it going that way. Yeah. And I think the idea has always been there, but maybe just the specific implementation of it,

like we're understanding it better than we used to. Well, I guess this sort of is a good set transition point for us to talk about Jared Bednar and sort of the impact of the coach here because clearly they're blessed with immense personnel, right? Like they have a lot of great players. And I think for the most part, a lot of people could just be like, yeah, well, we have really good players that just let them do their thing. I do think in this case, though, there is an element of sort of maybe it's just getting out of the way and just letting your best players, like enabling them and empowering them to. to play this brand of hockey as opposed to trying to kind of dumb it down and play a more conservative style because you feel like that's going to be more successful come postseason time.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I've never had the benefit of sitting in under meetings, obviously, and really getting to know what their processes are. But I've always found it really impressive how Colorado's been able to, first of all, implement the style of play, but second, do it really well without maybe as much human resources Toronto has. You know, we have, you know, we had way more skills development people. We have more analysts. You know, our coaching staff was slightly bigger.

Whereas Colorado, like, they just, they had fewer people in the room. And but they were still able to, I would even say, you know, they did a better job implementing this than, than we did when I was in Toronto. And I've always found that really impressive. I mean, don't you think there's a certain element of it makes it. Once you have that environment set up or that structure, it makes it easier to plug in young players because you're essentially just asking them to play probably the way they played coming up and sort of just play to their skills as opposed to having this super rigid structure where all of a sudden you're asking a 21 year old with limited experience to sort of do stuff that their game isn't even suited to. Like it feels like for whatever reason they've been able to plug in guys like whether it's a Connor Timmons or an Alex Newhook and Thra. lineup, obviously very talented young players, but there's a lot of teams that are very reluctant

to do so, especially this time of year, because they feel like they need more sort of experience or players who have been there before. And the avalanche have those players, obviously, but they seem very comfortable with trusting their young, talented players to do so as well. And I kind of wonder how much of it is related to the team's history or their upbringing, so to speak, because they're a relatively young franchise, right? They've been around since 95, 96. I believe. And, you know, they've been a winning team, but they don't really have a ton of, I would say, baggage, right? Like, there wasn't a ton of kind of crusty, like traditionalist voices to say, we've got to do this a certain way that maybe in cities like Montreal or Toronto or Edmonton or even like Boston, New York.

Like, maybe it's more entrenched into those other markets. whereas, like, I watched Colorado play, and four and a half years ago, it seems like they couldn't do anything. But over time, they just kind of found their way. And now they just play freely, which I don't think is a given. Like, you watch Colorado and they play free. You watch Carolina and they play free. You watch Florida and they play free. And I don't know if it's the fact that they're in a less traditional market, but it just seems to me like,

there's less baggage when they play hockey, which I don't know, which may or may not be a thing. I don't know. I mean, that's a tough thing to quantify. I think for me, like, a much easier thing to trace back is it seems like there is big time organizational buy-in in terms of the players they're targeting, whether it is through the draft or free agency or trades and then how they're actually being used. Like, we know, like, they're obviously a team that that's invested pretty heavily in analytics and it runs through the organization. but you can sort of see that in action, right, where like they're bringing in, they're targeting specific players that can come in and play the way that they would ideally love them, like them to play, and it's working out.

And so that's why I think they're actually, for an unbiased observer, like, their success is a good thing because not only are they really fun to watch from like an entertainment product perspective, but from a team-building perspective, there's a lot to like in terms of how patiently and shrewdly they put this group together, obviously, with someone. luck along the way. But if that's something that other teams all of a sudden aspire to and try to model themselves after, like, that's ultimately a net positive for the NHL, I think. Yeah.

And like if you go up and down the lineup, they're just good at hockey. Like there's not a ton of like histrionics or anything like that. Like they're not trying to overcomplicate. Like you see kind of what their mindset is when they look for players with speed or skill or hockey sense. But, you know, it's like I look at Carolina, same thing. Like they just have a lot of players that fit generally what they're looking for. But then, you know, they've added more of a rush aspect to their game.

But they still have that kind of heavy forecheck or heavy shooting and retrieving aspect. But they just, they don't overthink and they just go for the players that just basically, objectively, are the best options. But think about this. Like, you know, you're talking about there about the organizational baggage and stuff. like this is a team that over the past two years lost in game seven right and they lost two years to go through the sharks and they had upset the flames the year before and it was a step into the right direction and they were really close and that shark team was really good while healthy so I don't think that was viewed as a disappointment I would think it's fair to say despite all of their

injuries last year and having to rely on Michael Hutchinson and that it was disappointing that they didn't make it to the conference final and they lost to the stars in game seven that was an upset and I think there would have been a lot of organizations in this league that this past summer looked at that and said, oh, we got to get, we got to get tougher here. We got to go the other way. I know we're really skilled and we've had a lot of success, but for us to get over that hump, we need to bring in some more more leadership and character here. And they certainly, like, like, Brennan Sott has had had success in the league is that type of player, but he's also skilled. And so for them, like the biggest adjustment they made was we're going to flip. Nikita Zedorov, who you'd think is a type of player of the profile is the way they'd want more of those guys for Brandon Sade. And then they replaced Zadorav with Devon Taves and basically add even more skill to their lineup. And it seems very obvious to do so. But I do wonder how many teams actually would have taken that route as opposed to letting a game seven defeat kind of cloud their judgment and make them make some sort of rash unfortunate decisions. Okay.

So here's a fun little hypothetical for you. Okay. So in March of 2017, that was when Kyle Dubas first reached out to me about potentially going to Toronto, working together and so on and so forth. So we had some initial discussions then. And then for about three or four months, he went radio silent. And if you remember back then, there were some rumors about him potentially taking over Colorado. Right? There were some rumors there. Yep. Yep. And so, like, recently I was thinking about it. I wonder, gee, like, I wonder if in a parallel universe, Kyle goes to Colorado and whether they'd be better off or worse off or just different. And for me, that's fascinating.

Like, I have no answers on that front, but that's just, I don't know. Like, I don't know how that that could have turned out. I love how it was a relevant anecdote, but also how does this affect the leaves. I love how you, you spun it in that angle, true to form, while you're wearing. a Toronto Maple Leafs Development shirt. That was very classic. Nicely done.

Yeah, thank you. That's what a skilled podcast and professional would pick up on, right? There we go. That was a little nod for our least fans listening out there. No, but you know, like in terms of sort of lessons or I guess what we could learn from the success

they've had so far in terms of getting these players, like one thing is they did a really good job of, I'm not sure how much of this was the analytics involvement and how much of it was the pro scouting and how I'm sure there was all of that involved. But over the past handful of years, how many times have they identified a player that either was an RFA that that team couldn't afford on their next contract or a player who, you know, just for whatever reason, flamed out of their past stop was obviously very talented, but it just didn't work out. like they identified and went and traded for Andre Brokowski as an RFA and then they basically gave up just a couple picks to do so. And then they signed him and he's an awesome second liner for them. They did so with Philip Rubauer when the capitals couldn't afford him on his next contract. They obviously did it most recently with the Bon Taves.

And the reason they were able to do so was because they maintained financial flexibility and had a lot of draft picks to do so. And I think that is the big learning. Like obviously you need they got a bit lucky with how the Matt Ducet returned wound up. working out in terms of the assets they got, they got a bit lucky in terms of the contract that they had signed Nathan McKinnon to when his shooting percentage was at 7% and then he wound up leveling up and becoming one of the best three players in the world. Like there's, you need to get lucky along the way, but there is a lot of smart team building practices as well that we can sort of trace back to as the reason why they got a lot of these players.

Well, uh, how I would say this is that maybe they got a little bit lucky on the front end of their cycle. Right. Then they built on it with good, good decisions or good process. And now they need to get a little bit lucky to get over the hump and maybe win a cup or more than one cup. So,

you know, it's like some of the luck that they had in the beginning, I think they're hoping to get some more of that now because honestly, there's a lot of good teams in the league and not everybody gets to win the cup. and maybe if they can keep their window open for as many years as possible, then don't get one or two or maybe more than that. But who knows? Well, as we saw with last year, health is probably the biggest

determinate factor in terms of postseason success. Was there anything else on the avalanche that we wanted to touch on while we're still here on this call? Well, I'm just going to shout out my buddy Eric and David Wood over there. And there's, And do it's a big Briggins as well, right? Yeah.

Yeah. It's a good staff. All right, man. Well, this was a blast. I glad we got to do this. Do you want to plug some stuff? Where can people check you out? Do you want to tell them a little bit about your book or whatever they can do to help support the Jack Hahn brand?

So once again, best place to keep up with what I'm doing is on Twitter. J-H-A-N-H-H-K-Y. And then once you're on my Twitter, you can sign up for my free. newsletter where I talk about tactics and player development and a bunch of other hockey-centric stuff. And then if you like those, then buy one of my e-books. That's it. What are you working on these days? What are you watching? You're just watching the Leafsab series? Some and then maybe a couple of other series. I'm also working with some pro players. So I'm helping them put together some off-season plans and kind of trying to plug their skill set into patterns that they can use

whenever they start playing again. You know, I've got some guys in Europe, some NHL prospects, even some minor hockey players in my area. So that's been really interesting to just be able to coach players one-on-one, whether it's remotely. And I'm hoping to be able to get back on the ice at some point. But it's really, it's different because a lot of players, they feel like their regular team coaches,

they don't really have the time or maybe, you know, the perspective necessary to help them maximize the potential and that's really why I come in. And it's been really rewarding to already see some guys be able to move up leagues next year or to get on track to maybe make the NHL or get back to the NHL or anything along those lines. Go, man. Well, be well. Looking forward to seeing what you turn out next. It feels like you're putting out a book every other day here. So I'm curious to see what's coming next. But this is a blast and we'll have to do this again sometime in the postseason. Let's pick a team or a series to just keep our eyes on and watch some tape up,

and then we can kind of break down what they're doing right or wrong. Sounds great. All right. Cheers, Bab. All right. That's going to be it for today's episode of the Hockey PEOCast. Hopefully you enjoy my conversation and deep dive on the Colorado Avalanche with Jack Hahn. We will have plenty more playoff content coming here soon.

We're going to do a round one recap, round two preview. and as the number of series start to dwindle and the number of teams left to discuss, decrease will be able to really hone in on them more like we did here with the avalanche and deep dive sort of what's going right and wrong and their systems and all that good stuff. So plenty more to come your way.

Hopefully you enjoy this one. And if you did, please consider helping us out by leaving a quick little rating interview. It's really easy to do. Only takes a minute of your time. You can just leave the five stars if you are feeling extra generous and have some pre-top in your hands, you can leave us an actual review there and let people know either what you enjoy about the PDO cast

or why you recommend others check it out if they haven't done so yet. A lot of you have done that already, and every single one of them is greatly appreciated. And I really thank you for doing so and for helping the show out. And if you've been holding out and still haven't done so yet, but I've been meaning to, please consider doing so at some point here because it helps the show a lot. So that is going to be it for today's show. We're going to be back soon with another. And thanks for listening.

Enjoy the playoffs. And until then. Videocast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. At soundcloud.com slash hockey p.ocast.