The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 422: Finding the Right Partner

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

Jack Han joins the show to discuss a variety of topics including Trevor Zegras' playing style, lessons we can learn from the Stars top line, Oliver Kylington's development this season, and players we like that you've probably never had any reason to think about before.2:00 Why Hintz, Robertson, and Pavelski work so well together14:00 Trevor Zegras' experimentation and playing style29:00 Oliver Kylington's development38:00 Random players we like that you've never thought aboutIf you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. Each one counts, and helps us out greatly. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

On a beautiful run through the park, on a pleasant day, you can easily get lost. No, no, no. She didn't kill him. Huh? In your true crime podcast. It was the pool guy. So obvious. Whatever motivates you works for us. It's all about letting your run be your run. And Brooks is here for every runner.

Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PDOCast. With your host, Dimitri Phil. Welcome to the Hockey Pee-Ocast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Jack. I'm Jack. What's going on, man?

Dimitri, it's a wonderful day for hockey. That's true every single day. But especially today now that we're getting to chat, it's been a while, man. I don't think we've done a show together for a while. So here's the plan for people. There really isn't one. It's been a long time since we've been able to chat. So I figured it would be good for us to just catch up.

And I texted you some ideas of just like a random grab bag of topics that I've had on the mind recently while watching these games. And you were like, all of that makes sense and ties in together neatly into a kind of one big cohesive unit. So I think we're just going to do that. So I'll start us off. The Dallas Stars top line. I know you wrote about them in part of your book.

When did they come out? When did the 2021 version come out a couple months ago? I want to say like around September like right before the season because the whole idea was I had six chapters and I wanted to pick six talking points. Oh, sorry, 10. Yeah, this one has 10 chapters, but 10 talking points that were kind of ahead of the curve. And one of them, I think that's worked out really well is the Dallas one. It really has. And so I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is a team that I had 30th on my watchability ranking just a couple weeks.

ago and the first few weeks of the season were dreadful to watch. Like it was a team and they just looked completely listless. They were just comfortable playing these low scoring games and trying to drag it out towards overtime and there wasn't really any ambition involved. And things have completely flipped. And that's largely because of this top line. And I've in fact made a point of seeking out Stars games just so I can watch them do their thing in the offensive zone because they play off of each other so beautifully.

they complement each other's individual strengths so perfectly. And I think what they're doing is quite instructive. And I think you also hit on that approach of theirs in your book as well. But I think, you know, listeners might be interested to hear more about it. I just wrote about it at length as well for EP ringside. But, you know, it's kind of these like three players that don't necessarily fit ideally in theory. If you think about it, right? You've got this burner and Rupert Hintz.

You've got a 37-year-old Joe Pavelski. and you've got this power forward in Jason Robertson who fell in his draft class because of concerns about his skating. And so you think, well, you're putting two kind of slower and more lumbering methodical players next to a guy who should just be playing back and forth kind of reckless hockey. And for whatever reason, it has worked. So let's just talk about that. Well, I think there's a lot of things to take away from this line that can be extended to whether it's player development, whether it's coaching, whether it's, whether it's just watching hockey. Like I think we all have this,

this mental model of like what a good hockey player looks like. And I think the three members of this line, they fall short in certain regards, all three of them, but then together, like, they makes, it just makes sense as a unit. And I think a lot of times, you know,

having worked at the NHL and HAL level, like coaches, they don't always have a realistic set of expectations for a player, like there's going to be some things that you don't do so well. And that's true for everyone. Like even McDavid and Crosby, they got warts in their game. They're just not big ones. They don't really matter. But every player has warts. But on the other hand, every player has these kind of elite skills, uh, that's carried them to that level. So just bringing hints and Roberts and Pavellsky together like,

separate. They're not, you know, they're not all-stars by any means, but together, their skill sets just makes sense. Well, I think Hintz has an all-star skill set, right? Especially in the conventional sense, because I struggle whether to classify him as underrated or not, because this is a team that made a bubble run in which he played prominently in, all the way to stand the cup final, like a year and a half ago. He scored 43 points and 41. games last year. I feel like every year at the start of the season, he's kind of crowned as like a trendy breakout pick, even though he already clearly has broken out. But I think like even a above average fan is aware of Rupert Hins, right? But at the same time, like you watch him play,

and especially in these past 10 games or so, which he's been completely on fire, like when it's all clicking for him, like what he's able to do and how destructive he is off of the rush and sort of how he can just single-handedly blow people away and create. It's a very short list of players that can do that as sort of casually as he seems to be able to. And he's not really marketed in that way at all, right? Maybe it's because Dallas plays as kind of grinded out slow style. I think there's probably people that still think that Radulov Ben and Sagan are their top forward line, even though that hasn't been the case for a while.

But if you just watched him in isolation, you stripped away the name, you stripped away any sort of expectations or beliefs about what the Dallas stars are and just watch Rubei Hintz play hockey. If you caught him on the right night, you'd be like, this guy is the best player in the league because he's that, that scintillating of a talent. So the thing with Hince is, you know, obviously we have a player who's in the prime of his career and who has a very loud skill set, like you see him skating around people or stay kind of through people.

But I think the way that it's worked out is he needs guys like Pavelskine and Robertson to slow him down. And the reason I say this is I think all of us, no matter of what level of hockey we played, we know of this guy or girl that we play with growing up who's just really fast, like faster than everybody else on the ice. And a lot of times these players don't reach their potentials because, you know, from ages 8 to 18, you're just taught to skate around people. And then once you hit a higher level of competition, it dries up

because all of a sudden the Ds can pivot and skate with you and then you're done. Whereas for Hintz, the fact that he's playing with two, you know, slower, more methodical kind of east-west guys, actually, first of all, it forces them to play the game in a more correct way as opposed to just north-south and try to skate through people. But second, it opens up his ability to accelerate past people because all of a sudden you got Pavelski or Robertson drawing in a couple of defenders slowing the game down and then they pop the puck out and then Hintz is on a breakaway. So if you got like three fast guys together, they don't necessarily get more breakaways. But if you have one fast guy with two really smart slower guys. And by the way, like Pavelsky, sure, he's old and slow, but Robertson is not that slow. But just to have that setup where you have such a big speed differential, right? That's how HINS looks really good alongside those guys because, you know, they hold the puck.

They control the tempo. And that's how Hince gets a lot of his great looks. Yeah, he does. I think that's a really good point. I think especially, you know, what noticed to me just kind of watching back all their shifts is the way they work the geometry of the ice in a way, right? Like Pavelski especially, but Robertson as well has already early in his career shown himself to be remarkably good at working the walls and sort of, you know, being an obstructive player along the boards in terms of like stopping breakouts and caught and, and, retrieving the puck. And so I think that also kind of allows, it opens up the middle of the ice for hints to basically treat it as a runway of sorts, right? Like, typically we see if you just had hints playing with Goryanov and another super fast player, as you're saying, yeah, it'd be great on the occasions it came together and they created off the rush. But then that typically leads to counter attacks going the other way because you have

these one and done scenarios where you shoot, it might miss the net. It goes around the boards and all of a sudden, the other team has a three on two themselves. And it's a kind of a risky way to play. Like, it works for the Oilers when you have Carter McDavid and Leon Dreisel. But that's also why they have, you know, shockingly poor defensive metrics usually because they are willing to kind of play, get into that game of trading chances. That doesn't really happen with this line because Hintz has these rush chances where he kind of goes in alone or whatever.

But then the other team gets the puck and they try to break out and Pavelsky causes some sort of a turnover or rock. Robertson dislodges it in a crowd. And then they still get that rush chance while also maintaining a 50 second offense's own possession where they get your typical sort of cycle game going. So they have their cake and they get to eat it too in a way. They're not necessarily sacrificing one for the other. I think that's what's really made them work.

And that kind of speaks to the chemistry of these guys having individual skill sets, but coming together to get the most out of each other. Yeah. And I don't know what the thought process was of these guys getting together initially. but you look at the way that they play, and then you look at the way the rest of the team plays in Dallas, and also you look at the statistical outputs. Like, it's two completely different teams.

Yep. And, you know, you talk about Dallas being close to unwatchable. Well, I mean, the rest of the time, Dallas is close to unwatchable. Yeah. No, well, they are. And so, listen, I know that, you know, with or without your numbers are, can be misleading because usually there's contextual factors like deployment and sort of how players are used in certain.

situations. But I did find I find a very notable that since the start of last season, Roberts and Enhanced have played 600 5-1-5 minutes, give or take. The stars are scoring 4.1 goals per 60 with them on the ice. Without them on the ice, it's 1.6. While, and the goals against numbers are pretty much identical in both states. So it's like, you're right. It really is a different sport. It's almost like they're just kind of hanging on and very comfortable having nothing happen while those guys get a break for 90 seconds and then they hop over the boards and they're like, all right, please try to create a goal because otherwise we're just not going to score unless we get on the power player.

Yeah. And the real shame in all this is I think, you know, I'm hoping that Pavelsky's able to, he's going to be able to keep it up. But obviously he's not born close to the same decade as these two other guys. And, you know, now the question becomes, okay, well, we know that Roberts and hints work extremely well together, but who's the next player? because I don't think Sagan or Ben or Radulov are going to be the solution. So now you're looking maybe at a guy like Maverick Borek or Tidalandria, you know,

who maybe could eventually fill in that gap. But if and, you know, Pavellsky's a special player, he's been around for a long time. He's going to be hard to replace. But for me, like in terms of Dallas's long-term plan, like you got to find a way to try to replicate that success. Yeah. Well, which is easier something that, yeah. I mean, if you told me when Joe Pavelski signed his contract that he'd be still playing this well in this final year or whatever he's in now, I wouldn't have believed you.

So the fact that he's doing this is kind of an anomaly in and of itself. But yeah, we'll see. Is there anything else on that trio that you kind of want to touch on? Because obviously you wrote about them as well. But I feel like we kind of hit on what makes them special. I just this conversation of putting players together to get the most out of each guy, is so interesting to me because there isn't necessarily like a cut and dry rule in terms of all right, you put this player type with this player type and you're going to get the best

results. Like there's obviously a lot of details involved, but they seem to have stumbled upon something special. I do wonder if there is something bigger to take away from it that other teams can replicate. Well, just for me, like I've worked in hockey for a while and I play growing up. And for me, like one of the most beautiful things that you can find in the sport or in life in general is just the right partners, right? So, We can talk about your line mates in hockey. We can talk about the people you work with. We can talk about your boyfriends or girlfriends or life partners, whatever.

Like recently, I was reading Will Smith's autobiography that came out not too long ago. And he was talking about the day that he met DJ Jazzy Jeff for the first time. And then there was like his usual DJ, like the beatboxer wasn't there. And then, you know, basically him and. Will Smith was saying how he didn't expect to become friends with Jeff because they come from different parts of town or whatever, but then immediately it just clicked. And they had such a compatible complementary skill set. And in hockey, for me, like, that's the sweetest part of the game where you're able to have these, whether it's three-fords or two Ds or even a five-man unit that

just, you know, on their own, they're pretty good, but then together there's something special. And as we continue this conversation to move on to other teams, like, that's the theme that's going to come back. Like, when things work out unusually well, you have this sort of synergy or that there's this partnership. All right. Well, you're segueing us neatly there then. Let's let's talk about Trevor Zegris and the Ducks because they're kind of next on my list of topics that I wanted to discuss with you. I want to talk about Zegrois first and then we can kind of talk more about, you know, his partnership and his line and sort of the way the team is playing because they've obviously been. quite surprising this season, both in terms of wins and losses, but also in terms of how just

efficient they've been with their play. You know, I've, there's few players in the league that I've enjoyed watching more than Zegers this year. It's great that he has 21 points and 24 games and has 16 in his last 11. And he's going to be right there with Lucas Raymond and then in the year in terms of the rookie race for scoring and all that. But honestly, I find just watching him, even the plays that don't amount to anything just as fun or revealing in a way. Like, I think it's, totally fine that he tries all of this zany stuff that doesn't work. I love that creativity and experimentation in his game. I know that hockey is a very conservative sport by nature and especially for coaches. Like when you see a player that has a simple play maybe that they can make

and you expect them to make and instead they do this thing that you've never really seen before, especially in a game setting at this level, it could drive you crazy and it can make you feel like, all right, like, I can't trust this guy because he's not doing what he's been asked to do. But I just find that the reward is worth so much more than the risk in this case that I just, I've just been blown away watching them. Like, I feel like it really is almost a different viewing experience than you get with pretty much any other player. So there's, there's a rule of thumb that I use to when I scout players and when I try to figure out, like, who's going to be elite or who's going to be like a really high-end player.

And the rule of thumb I use is if I see this player screwing up a lot, then for me, that's actually a good thing. Because like when you watch Zegrois, like he does a lot of stuff that don't make sense. And right now, like in this stage of his development and in this stage of De Anaheim's Ducks progression as a team, like I want to see that. Like I want to see him try things that don't work out because first of all, that stretches his comfort zone. and second, it gives him an idea of what he has and what he doesn't have at this point of time. So a counter example of that, obviously, you know, I'm from Montreal and I watch the Canadians a lot.

And for me, one of the reasons why I think Nick Suzuki is a very good player, but he still has a ways to go to be a great player, I don't see him making mistakes. And I don't know if it comes from him, whether he's being cautious or from the coaching. But if you want to be a number one center in the NHL, you basically got to get to a spot where rules don't apply to you anymore. Okay.

Right. So, like, I'm talking about like Connor McDavid and, you know, what, you know, Cindy Crosby, you think he plays by the rules, but sometimes he'll, he'll cheat for offense or he'll make reads. Malkin's definitely a guy who chees for offense. Austin Matthews, you'll see him cheat for offense at certain times. Jack Hughes is going to get there. And, you know, he's a guy that makes mistakes.

but if you don't make mistakes, I don't see the potential upside for you to be a number one center and to be a dominant kind of game-changing player. Certainly. I imagine the environment, like, it's, it might sound cliche, but it's much easier for Zegris. I feel like to get away with trying some of this stuff than the spotlight Suzuki's on.

Like, I feel like Suzuki's cape, he doesn't necessarily have the skill that Ziegers has, but I think he's capable of doing more than he's probably put on tape so far in his NHL career just because of the situation he's been thrust into. But it is really refreshing seeing a young player come into the league and not feel like he needs to just completely dumb his game down and oversimplify everything to fit in and not draw the ire of his coach if it doesn't work out. Like, I love seeing that, especially, you know, the skill and the smoothness with which

he handles the puck is one thing. But I've been much more impressed with the way he processes what's going on in the ice. Like you can almost, you can see. And this is why he was so trash. for many reasons why they started the year playing Nicholas Deloree with him. But you can see him almost like throwing the puck to where he himself would stand if he was his teammate, like he expects his teammate. He's not necessarily even throwing his teammate open like a quarterback.

He's he's like, you should be standing over there. So I'm going to just throw the puck because I'm expecting you're going to be there. And a lot of the guys he's played with, unfortunately, just haven't been able to keep up so far in terms of that wavelength. It's not surprising that one guy who has succeeded is Sunny Milano because he's got his own wards, but he also has a certain element of skill and flare in his game so he can sort of think on that same wavelength as him. And that's why it's been fun to watch them play together. But it's exciting to think that, all right, it's already been fun right now, but assuming this team keeps adding talent and they've drafted well over the past couple years,

and I assume they're going to keep getting better and better over the next handful of years. it's fun to think that they're going to infuse this line up with players that can make the most of these opportunities he's creating. Yeah, and if you watch that Milano, Zegris, Raquel line, it has a lot of the similar elements of that Dallas line, which is, I think Zegris is a better player than Rupert Hintz. I think, you know, Pavelsky's probably better around the net, probably is a stronger and smarter player than Raquel.

And then Milano and Robertson, you know, it depends. Milano's older. Robertson's a better player. Yeah. But overall, like a lot of the similar attributes where Zegrois is going to be, you know, the speed threat or just generally the playmaker, but then Malano has great ability to hold the puck and to, you know, cut back and get off the wall and kind of find these little plays like Robertson does at times.

And then Raquel is, you know, he can take. face-offs because he's more of a natural center, does a bit of everything, kind of like Pavelsky. But so you see all of these kind of nuances and elements represented. And that's even before I get to the defense, because one of the things that I see from Anaheim this year is they're using a lot more width in transition and their weaks ideas are way more active. Like we know that Camp Fowler is a great skater and we know that Jamie Drysell is a great

skater, but this year they're actually getting a lot of puck touches in transition because now, um, you know, Zegrois not only is trying to play through people, but he's able to slow it down and, you know, cut back, change direction, find a short lateral pass to a D. And the spacing is just way better. And there was this gift that I posted on my Twitter last night from like this old Chappelle show skit where, um, Chappelle plays this like hack, uh, hit, like rapper called Dylen and he's choking white cleft, John, because. like Wyclef John is like getting too close to it.

And that's what Anaheim looked like last year. Like they were using the strong side of the ice way too much. All the players were bunched up together. They won't create a lot of offense. Players have to go through a lot of physical battles just to, you know, get the puck and fight into space. Whereas this year, they're really using the width of the ice. And that's where you see not only Ziegress taking off, but, you know,

Drysdale as well. And Cam Fowler is probably playing, playing as well he's ever had. Yeah, I mean, doesn't dry, he'll like any young defenseman's going to make mistakes, but I've been really impressed with, like I thought last year he was kind of thrown into a crappy situation

and he was overwhelmed by the moment. And this year, like his, his ability to defend the rush is already special. And so I've enjoyed him quite a bit. I'd love to see a, you know, we were talking earlier about a Pavelsky and sort of, oh, you got to replicate that and you've got to find a player like him. Like, man, this,

if this duck team could find him, could find a Jake Gensel type to play with Trevor Ziegers. Like, Jake Gensel's an awesome player. So it's clearly easier said than done. But man, like a player who has that shooting talent while also being able to think the game at a high level, I guess it might be a bit of a lazy comparison because, yeah, like we've seen him thrive with Crosby. But seeing a player like that next to Zegers, like he's already created so many opportunities

that they have nothing to show for just because the players in the receiving end aren't quite good enough. So I'd love to see that. I mean, it could be Jacob Perrault. I used to watch him, the OHL, and he shoots the puck a ton. And I wonder if he eventually takes over in Raquel's spot because he's a right-hand shot. And as you said, he has a lot of those kind of shooter elements that they would use on that line. One final thing, though, I will say.

Like, I've already seen this starting to crop up with Zegers, because I love posting clips of, like, him doing ridiculous stuff. and we're already starting to see push back to the way he plays. Like, you know, he tries to shoot through the legs from a weird angle or something. And there's people like, oh, just shoot the puck normally. Stop trying to show off where like he stylishly fakes a pass and does a deacon. People are like, he didn't even need to do that. It was unnecessary. He already had to defend her beat.

And stuff like that just really frustrates me so much. Like, we're so beholden to outcomes. I don't know if you find it this way. But like obviously it matters if you score goals are important and you're trying to win the game. and that's ultimately what matters at the end of the day. That's what is deemed successful or not. And players get paid based on that and all that. But it's also so troubling to just judge isolated plays based on solely on whether the puck went into that or not because there's so many things that influence whether that's the case.

And I just think from my perspective, and I'm myself guilty of this sometimes, like getting too sort of in the weeds or too myopic with my analysis. Like it's a game. It's an entertainment product. It's supposed to be fun. and we often lament how the NHL is falling behind in terms of mainstream and cultural appeal and compared to other leagues and how like, oh, how can we grow the game? How can we make it more popular? And I think young players try and cool shit and fancy moves, even if they don't work,

helps increase the popularity. Like you should be embracing that skill because it's just remarkable what they're capable of doing. And it feels like each year new players come into the league and they're better of you, they're capable of even better and better stuff. And I'd like to see us market that and show people who are, watching hockey on a nightly basis, how fun it can be. And it's like, oh, you should watch this because players can do stuff like this now. And instead, every player that, you know, doesn't fit into that kind of cookie cutter idea of what a hockey player should look like or play like is viewed

as like, oh, like, well, that's not, that's not going to work or all this isn't a video game or this and that. And I just, I don't know. I'm ranting here, but I'd really like to see us sort of get out of that like hater mentality of just like every time someone tries something, it doesn't work, us to view it as a failure and instead focus on how cool it is. The players are experimenting and trying cool stuff and that skill is as abundant in today's game as it is. I think it comes back to the idea of something called depth of skill, which is a term that Dowell Belfrey uses.

But it's a societal issue because right now the way that the world is now, like everybody is looking to optimize. And because, you know, it's very competitive. And I'm talking whether it's in hockey, whether it's in baseball, whether it's you know, in the startup world or whatever, we're all looking to optimize because as soon as we're not optimized and we feel like we're falling behind. And the counter argument to that is if you can do something three different ways,

you're better than the person can only do it one way, right? So if Zegaris or someone else, you know, can catch passes in a weird way or shoot between the legs, like it just means that they're getting better. They're expanding their skill set. They're deepening that skill set. And, you know, it's the same idea of like, everybody knows that you're not supposed to specialize too early in hockey, that you're supposed to play different sports. And like, everybody knows that if a player is learning to skate, well, if you put a soccer ball at his feet or her feet, that that kid is going to be a better skater because they learn how to use their body of different ways.

Everybody knows that, you know, the reason why Austin Matthews is such a great athlete and great shooter specifically is he comes from a baseball and a golf back. everybody knows that yet when you know people are working on their depth of skill and like we accuse them to being fancy or being overly complicated or overthinking it but like that's how people get ahead it's there's such it's such a kind of a hypocrisy in society that like you know when we try to develop depth of skill we're criticized for it but ultimately that's what's make that's what makes a difference well certainly and i i get it like there's a lot of that goes into being a good hockey player. Like, there's a reason why Linus Allmark or Linus O'Mark, sorry, not Linus O'Mark, the

goalie, but Linus O'Marc, the forward, like, didn't wind up being like the best player in the league, right? Like, even though you'd watch the stuff he was capable of doing with a puck on a stick and he was incredible and he'd score these ridiculous shootout goals. And there's been countless examples of very skilled players that could do really cool stuff, but ultimately it didn't amount to much in a game setting. That obviously isn't the case here was eager because, as I said, he's, he's piling up the points and, you know, checking all the boxes in terms of all the underlying metrics and everything

you'd like to see that helps the team win. But he's also trying these ridiculous moves as well. And I really don't see anything wrong with that. And I just, I don't know, I don't know how else to phrase it. But I've personally enjoyed it. And I'm curious every night to see what he's going to do next. And that is like the best thing you can say about a player because he's getting people to tune in to Anaheim Ducks games and care about it and buy his jerseys and follow both him and the team. And I think every, every NHL team should be striving to get players like that because that's what really helps move the needle. Yeah. Well, also, that's what an elite player is, right? Like when you watch an elite player, whether it's in a

practice or a game, your consciousness or your awareness of what's possible expands. So if you're watching, let's say, Crosby or Patrice Bergeron, well, you're seeing how it's possible to play hockey correctly by the book in almost every circumstance. So in a way, you know, your mind is expanded, but then you watch, you know, whether it's Rupé Hins or Connor McDavid or Trevor Zegroist, and then you see other things. But that's what elite players do. They redefine what's possible and what's practical and what you can do on a consistent basis. And then the whole game moves forward. It's not just a Ziegress thing. You imagine, David there. Like every time he slices through three defenders for a highlight real goal,

I post a video of it and you see like weird, weird reply guys pop up in the mentions being like, oh, the defender should have taken the body there instead of puck watching. And it's like, well, yeah, thanks for the tip. But while that might be technically true, it's also easier said than done. And there's a reason why he's a best player in the world. And we should celebrate this accomplishment because it's really cool. So I don't know. It's always weird to me when people focus on certain things like that. latch onto it as kind of like a defense mechanism or whatever rather than just acknowledging how cool of a play I was. Well, once again, I think it shows limitation how you understand the

game because when Crosby or sorry, when McDavid skates into a one on three with the puck and he feels like he has a decent chance of coming out of the pile of the other side with it, he knows that there's a four on two off the puck. So actually he's doing his teammates a big favor by taking on that one on three. Yep. Right. So for him, it makes perfect sense. Yeah.

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everyone. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Recognized employees with custom ink. Show customer appreciation with custom ink. Outfit your teams with custom ink. Easily add your logo to your favorite products and brands at custom ink.com. Make custom ink your custom gear, partner with great customer service, quality products, and all in pricing, along with personalized help when you need it, and an easy-to-use website when you don't. All backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Do it all today at customink.com. All right. Next topic, Oliver Shillington. So while during your time with the Marley's, I assume you probably cross-pass with them in terms of, you know, watching him closely. Did you see this season coming from him?

So I did watch them closely, but it was for a potential trade between the Leiths and the Flames like three or four years ago. So basically the Flames were trying to get one of the Leif's players who was holding out. And then they made some of their defensemen available. And then I took a look at all of them. And you know what? Like honestly back then, I wasn't overly impressed by Shillington. How come? I mean, like the physical tools must have been there.

They don't just come out of nowhere. I can't say that I watched any of his HL games, but I remember at the time of his draft, he was considered to be a top tier prospect and obviously fell in his draft class, and it's taken, what, six or seven years to get to this point, but it also, you know,

this skating ability that he's put on tape this season doesn't come out and over. Obviously, you have to functionally utilize it at both ends, which he has, but, you know, it's not like he's just, you know, hacking the system by putting up ridiculous numbers and people being like, I don't know how he's doing it.

Like I can watch his shifts and say, okay, I can point to exactly how he's doing it because he's doing this, this, this well. So you didn't see that in the HAL? So what I saw and the video back then that I watched with him,

was him in the HAL, but what I saw was he's a kind of player that's very helpful if your team's controlling the run of play because he can join the rush. Obviously skates really well, can contribute off the rush. makes good plays with the puck in the Ozone. But when the pressure is on,

he has trouble retrieving pucks one-on-one under physical pressure. And also he has a tough time making stops in the D zone. So if you're a little bit overmatch and you need someone to kind of turn the momentum or to create a change of possession, he's not necessarily that guy. And I think the reason why he's having such a strong year with Calgary this year is because

Calgary is just such a good possession team up and down the lineup that now he can almost kind of because of four other skaters are so in structure, he can kind of be more of a floater and more of a rover. And then he's able to pick up a lot of pucks and help the transition play, but only because everybody else is doing a really good job of holding it down for him. Well, that makes sense. It also helps that he's riding shotgun with someone like Kristaanov,

who I think at this point needs to start being considered as like a kingmaker of sorts of that position because pretty much everyone that plays with them seems to have. a much easier time doing so. And I know you wrote about Devon Taves similarly in your book. I find a lot of that applies to TANF as well in terms of his ability to be kind of like a connector or a facilitator where he's going to go back and get the puck and absorb contact and make a small little pass, which is in a zone exit or won't show up in any stats, really. But it makes life so much easier on his partner because all of a sudden, the guy like Shillington has a bunch of free space now to skate the puck out and use his wheels, which is what he does

best. And so, yeah, you're right. If he's, if he had to do the heavy lifting playing with Eric and Branson or someone like that who couldn't do that for him, it would obviously be a different conversation. But it also speaks to what we're saying about it's up to a team to identify these skills that are complementary to each other and get the most out of their players by putting them had a position to succeed. Yeah, I mean, I personally like both, I think Shillington and TANF caught me a little bit by surprise because I didn't expect them to do so well, especially together at this point, because if you remember a couple years ago, there were major concerns of whether Tanev was even going to be an okay

in each other just because of his injury history. Yeah. But, you know, he seems to be doing a lot better. And one of the things that I always enjoy about TANF is when you watch him play defense, he's always a little bit ahead of the play. So basically not only is he looking to kill the play like right now, but he's also hurting you into an area where either his partner can get the puck or if there's a 50-50,

then it's going to pop out to a teammate that's waiting. And I think that that's a really, it's a really tricky thing to watch for, especially if you're not there in person, you don't see the players like where they're looking. And on TV or on video, that's really tough. But that's one of the little things I really enjoy about TANF. Well, this whole Shillington thing, the kind of his development this year, I think, does spark an interesting conversation about the way young defensemen are kind of brought up and used and what's expected of them because, you know, I don't want to take away from the hard work that I'm sure he put in to improve his game in the meantime since, since you saw him at the HL and to take, you know, put himself in a position to take advantage of this opportunity. But at the same time, like, it's a great story. But if I'm the flames, I'm wondering how. a 24-year-old like him with his physical tools was sent down through waivers, went unclaimed,

sat in the press box last year for the majority of the season, I believe you only played in eight games for them. Started the year this year, clearly not in their plans because they went out and traded and paid Nikita Zedorov. They played him three minutes in the opener and then healthy scratch them in game two and didn't really give him a full run with Tenev until the third game of the season. And then they get this. So obviously, you know, sometimes you stumble upon this stuff and it's like, oh, this is a nice little treat and you just, you know, you take it and you run with it. But if I'm the flames or if I'm the other teams, I'm looking at this and beyond it being a cool story, I'm wondering, all right, do we need to kind of recalibrate what's going on here? Because something like this should not be happening. I mean, certainly I think there's there's some benefits of getting more looks to Shillington, a guy that we don't know versus.

Zadora of a guy that we know is not very good. So that's probably the first thing. The second thing is how much value add there is when you do find the right partner. So going back to the Dallas and the Anaheim examples. But still, like I'm, as I said, I'm not totally sold with Jillington. I think he's having a great year. I think he's in a really great situation. I don't know if he has that staying power.

So we'll see. I think you're selling short. Like, he's certainly in a great situation. I think what I've seen in terms of the skills, they seem pretty legit to be, especially like, you know, the stuff with rushing the puck up the ice and getting involved as the trailer and stuff like that. Like, that's obviously, you know, cool. And that'll grab a lot of the highlights and be on highlight reels and all that.

But, like, he's already shown to me his ability to defend the rush to the point where in 2021, that already makes him more valuable than, like, 60% of, defensemen that get regular minutes in this league. So even if he doesn't put up the big point totals he has so far and he's not playing with Chris Tenev moving forward, his ability in that one skill is so valuable to me because so few people can do it reliably without taking penalties that I'm using him regardless. So I don't know. Maybe I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here, but I think it's pretty legit.

I feel like, this is this is where he gets really fun because now in my mind I'm like, okay, how can I sell high on this guy? Like if I were running Calgary, like I'd be thinking about it. Not that I would do it, but because all of a sudden he's got the underlying and he's got the production and then he's got more respect on the market. I wonder if, you know, if this is now almost like it went from an undervalued asset to maybe an overvalued one. But, you know, this is neither here or not there. Oh, yeah, but it's going to be a lot of teams trying to save fate. Like they could have had him for free.

So I think trying to convince someone to give you something substantial for him at this point. Less than a year later is going to be a tough sell. but yeah, that's the fantasy hockey manager and you there. All right. Next topic. I gave you a bit of homework. Favorite random players to watch or guys you think are really good. Literally no one outside of their particular fan base has ever had any real reason to think about or have a conversation about.

And you can't pick someone like Andre Majapani. Everyone knows he's very good. Like this needs to be a legitimate deep cut for the true nerds out there. So give me, you can give me one. I ask you to come up with three names. I've got three myself, and I'm curious to see who you say. Okay. So I'm going to, I'm going to go against the grain here and catch it completely by surprise.

Okay. And I'm going to give you three non-NHL players. Because I was thinking about it. I'm like, the people listen to this podcast, whoever I named, they probably already know. Yeah, because they got really good underlying stats or, you know, they play in a certain market or they have a cold falling or whatever. But so as you may or may not know, I've been working as a consultant for the PW, sorry, the PHF's Connecticut Whale. So that's the women's pro hockey league down the U.S. That also has a team in Toronto.

And essentially some of the best hockey this side of the national team, the national teams in women's hockey. And I got to say, like the level of play is fantastic. Like, these are former Division I players. There's a number of Division III players as well. There's a couple of, like, Canadian University players in the league. And, you know, you can watch them, whether it's on Twitch, whether it's on ESPN, whether it's on TSN here in Canada. Like, my three favorite players to watch in the league are Michaela Grant Mentis on Toronto. So she's a center.

played D1 at Maramac, if I recall. And she has a lot of the, a lot of Barzal in her game. Like, not just the skating ability, but the ability to control the pace to play with the puck, really superb. Like, she has never gotten really a look with the Canadian national program, but like she's like right there. If somebody gets injured or whatever, like on merit,

she's, she's right there. Her linemate that gave us a ton of trouble when I coached, against them last month. I'm hoping I'm pronounced this correctly, but Michaela Kava, kind of an undersized right winger, really shifty, does a lot of cool things in terms of cutting back,

like changing the angle of the attack and really dangerous off the rush. Reminds me a bit of Willie Neelander, like really fun player to watch. Not so fun when she's scoring against us. And then on our team, we have a player by a name of Kennedy Marchmont, who's a forward and who's actually Mason Marchman's cousin.

And I tell Kennedy, like, you're a way better player than Mason. It's like if you watch this player play, like she's crazy good, whether it's off the rush run the cycle. Like, I mean, I could show these clips to NHL players and they would get something out of it. Just because, you know, they're not maybe the most physically dominant players at this level. And you'll see a lot of like Team Canada or Team USA players. they're way bigger and stronger physically. But they're kind of in that next tier of players

where they use their smarts and their skills to make up for that lack of physicality. And it just makes for really great hockey. And whether it's minor hockey players, junior players, pro players, like you can learn from that stuff. I like it. That's a good shout.

Do I want to hear my three names, who are NHLers? Yeah, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. All right. Your mileage on them may vary. But number one, Logan O'Connor.

Uh, okay. See, the abs, the abs are sneaky. They know what they're doing. They, uh, they jumped on this while they could. I believe in September. They sneakily signed him for three more years at just over one million per. He's already their seventh most use forward this season of five on five. He's their top used penalty killer.

He has a goal and three primary assists in 46 shorthanded mids this year for them. Uh, I think, I think it was last year, actually, that the evolving wild guys posted something about like how he should be in their Selky consideration. And obviously people laughed at it because they're like, who the hell is Logan O'Connor? And he was playing like nine minutes a night or whatever. And, you know, he had great suppression numbers. Everyone in the abs basically did.

But just watching him this year, he's legitimately a good player. I've been impressed with him. And he's like sort of the perfect third liner where he's going to help drive play. He's a good defensively. But he has enough skill where if you have injuries the way they have, he can play up the lineup in a pinch and not completely just be a black hole. So I like Logan O'Connor quite a bit. Yeah, super hard worker, super hard to knock off the puck,

like dog on a bone kind of player. You don't have to worry about giving him power play time because that's not really his game. Like, as you said, really good on the PK, a really good forechecker. Like that's a great contract for the team. And I think a lot of the, like, the cool thing about the abs I find is they're finding

a really nice balance between high, and skill, but also just guys who work really hard and who are functionally tough. Yeah. Which is what the lightning date, well, the basketball year. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I think he's going to be a good player for, well, he already is a good player, but he's going to be an important player for them. Yeah.

A guy who you might have, you might have watched in the HL. Did you watch Nicholas Wattel? More in the NHL, but yeah. Yeah. So he, he turns 25 in February. He's an RF. this summer. It's a good time for him to be looking for a new contract. Obviously, you know, he doesn't have the leverage as a restricted free agent, although the clock is ticking

until he is unrestricted. He is well in his way to basically doubling his previous career highs and goals and points. He's out of necessity playing like 17 minutes a night for them just because they've been so banged up down the middle. But I do wonder, you know, they're going to get Carlson back here. They have Stevenson, obviously Eichols and their long-term plans. I don't, he's a luxury item, that they probably won't be able to afford moving forward. And he's someone that I would be actively trying to poach if I was a different team. So here's a hot take for you, okay?

Let's say that Montreal office season this summer. Yeah. Well, they should. I see it. Like, for me, like, he does a lot of good things. And, you know, Vegas is going to be really tight against the cap, and he's a guy that can be poached. And I agree with you.

Like, he's a player that, um, once again, like that kind of connector, like a bigger guy, not really fast in a straight line, but can get off the wall, can make these little plays. If you put some wingers that can finish and that can fly, like, he could be really good. Well, the reason why I brought up the points thing is, like, obviously it's a matter of opportunity for him because it's like the first time he's really had a chance to play this role. But I do believe that he has legitimate playmaking chops.

Like I might be a bit overqualified as a number two pivot. Ideally, he would be like a strong. wrong play, driving third center for a really good team. But I do think he's got enough offensive upside that's still not on tap, but is getting there at this point of his career where I'm interested because I feel like, you know, might prove me wrong. But I just, yeah, I mean, what would it even take? Like if around $3 million or something, like Vegas can't afford,

they're already going to have to shed money. Like it just seems like something that would be very easily attainable. for a reasonable price with legitimate upside. Even if he doesn't develop into more, if he is what he already is, like he's a very valuable player. And for a team like Montreal, if you offer Shed him now,

he's going to be around once the team is good again. Yeah. Right? He'll be like a kind of a middle of the lineup guy. And, you know, like a center, like a center lineup of Suzuki, Roy and DeVorek is not terrible.

And you can, you can build around that. And then maybe eventually you bring in like another game changer and push people down. But like that that's something I'd be thinking about. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I'm looking here. So yeah, between two and four point one million,

the compensation is just a second round pick. That's, yes, I would be, I would be all over that. Final guy. Not even necessarily like, I don't necessarily have a huge analytical case to make here. he's just been a personal favorite for mine when I watch and play. Connor Clifton. I like him because you were talking earlier about players who don't look like what you'd expect a player to play,

if that makes sense. And for me, he's obviously this kind of like undersized sort of seventh defensemen that people cast him as. But he plays more physical than guys who are like eight inches taller than him. And I love the way he functionally. battles and competes. And I thought at the time, like, when they exposed them,

I thought it was a no-brainer for Seattle to pick him over Jeremy Lozahn. They obviously were infatuated with Lozahn size, I guess, and thought he had more upside. But whenever I, whenever I've tracked the Bruins games, he grades out well. I just think he's kind of misunderstood because of how he looks versus how he plays. But at 26 years old, making just $1 million, like, I would be interested in him and I would be trying to poach him. I don't think he necessarily has any game breaking upside by any means, but I just like him as a player. Yeah. And the one really funny thing about Boston is like it seems like every year

they're bringing up one or two like former college guys who like probably the best one of that of that category player was Matt Grizzlic, but like just guys who can play like down the lineup and not hurt the team too much and, you know, have a certain bite to their game. They may or may not be like more local players like like jack ashawn is the most recent one like he's i think he's a minnesota guy or he's from the midwest but um you know like undrafted undersized left hand and d he's going to be the guy that that replaces clifton most likely but yeah like they just have a lot of those kind of players and as an organization it's a strength of theirs to be able to just kind of bring up those players and not necessarily have him stick or become core players but

they're just around to give them good minutes and i think like I don't feel strongly about Clifton as a player necessarily, but I just find that as a team, they do a really good job of cycling through those players. Yeah, I just, I don't feel strongly about him either. I just have a little bit of a soft spot for him. And I do feel like a big sticking point of mine is,

there don't seem to be enough good NHL defensemen to go around for everyone. Like some of the caliber of players that are playing routine minutes on the back end for teams is not nearly good enough. And like, he won't hurt you. And that's a massive upgrade for a lot of teams. And he's just not valued as such because he's not six four or whatever. But that's a point for another day.

All right, Jack, that's going to be it for today's show. Plug some stuff. What are you working on, let people know about all the books and stuff that you've been pumping out? I feel like I just saw that you put out a presale now for another book. Like, I just read your most recent one. How did you already write out another one, tell people about all that? So the secret is, it's just the work that I do, I never let it go to waste. So for instance, the most recent ebook that I've offered for pre-sell is essentially the,

it's an e-book that includes all the five-on-five tactics of every team across the league, because I watch a ton of hockey. I like to catch a bit of every team, and I'm taking notes on their tactics on their forecheck, on their breakouts, on their, you know, neutral zone play. how they like to move the puck off the rush, who their good players are. So basically it's going to be 220 odd pages of diagrams and my notes on what every single team across the league plays like

and how their game breakers kind of bend the rules of the game in their favor. So if you're interested in that, follow me on Twitter at J-H-A-N-H-K-Y, and then once you get on my Twitter, then everything else is going to be right in front of you. Well, I highly recommend that. I read the hockey tactics 2021. I believe it's like 75 pages.

So I brazed through it in one sitting while I was flying from Vancouver to Toronto a while back. And I can vouch for the fact that it makes a great holiday gift for the hockey nerd in your life. So if you haven't read it yet or you think someone to enjoy it, I would definitely recommend checking out. There's a lot of cool tidbits in there. So keep up the good work, man. I am always excited to see. I love the way you sort of think about the game and incorporate different elements that are outside of hockey that are. are refreshing.

Right. So yeah, yeah, I really loved our conversation and hopefully we'll do this again soon. Yeah, man. Cheers. And for those that are still listening, please go rate and review the show. Each one's greatly appreciate a lot of you done so already, but it all helps out. Go read my work at E.P. Ringside where you can subscribe. And I just wrote it full length about Rupa Hints and the Star of Stop Line.

So check that out. And we will have Jack on again, sometimes soon down the road. So until then, thanks for listening. Eocast with Dmitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedeocast.