The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 424: Mo Seider, Mo Fun

Episode Date: January 10, 2022

Max Bultman and Ryan Hana join the show to discuss just how Moritz Seider, how impressive his rookie season has been, what we've seen from him that's made him so effective right away, and a whole lot more on the Detroit Red Wings. Topics include: The details in Seider's game Just how much they rely on him already Memories from the 2019 draft Lucas Raymond's dual threat ability The importance of his shot moving forward What the rookies have done for Detroit's watchability Dylan Larkin's career arc so far Jakub Vrana's eventual return The next steps for the Red Wings If you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. Each one counts, and helps us out greatly. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

On a beautiful run through the park, on a pleasant day, you can easily get lost. No, no, no. She didn't kill him. Huh? In your true crime podcast. It was the pool guy. So obvious. Whatever motivates you works for us. It's all about letting your run be your run. And Brooks is here for every runner.

Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Philip. Welcome to the HockeyedioCast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me for the first time on the show is my pal, Max, Max, what's going on, man? Hey, man, thanks for having me.

I'm doing really well. It's good to have you finally. I feel like we were going to do a show once when you were in Vancouver pre-pandemic, and we just couldn't get the schedules to the line. But I've been looking forward to having you on. So it's a blast to finally do this. And also, I think making his pedicast debut, I've been on his show. I'm currently wearing a t-shirt promoting his podcast.

It's my pal, Ryan Hannah. Ryan, what's going on, man? Hey, man, thanks for having me. And thanks for doing a better job of promoting the winged wheel than I do. Someone's got to do it. I had such a fun time. I was telling Max, your podcast is so legit. You're just sending gift baskets of podcast merch to your guests.

Meanwhile, I'm out here just begging people to come on the show and then thanking them afterwards, verbally as opposed to actually having anything concrete to give you. So you're, you're already, like, many steps ahead of me. You know, it's funny. I, um, I offered Max's shirt, but instead he wanted a bag of, uh, Ruffles all dressed chips. So I sent him a giant box of like a jumbo size from Costco of all dressed chips to Michigan. Yeah. I mean, I don't regret that at all. I stand by that. I didn't even really, I didn't even know that that was like a Canadian thing. I always just thought of like ketchup chips as being the, we have them now. Oh, you do? We have them now. Like, but it's been, it's been like a steady climb, uh,

I would say we had like rare occasions. We would have both of those two things. And then over the last, I don't know, three years or so, you've seen steadily more and more stores stock the Aldras. So now I could get them at the store. But I also do think the Canadian ones are better still. Yeah. All right.

I'll take your word for it. Okay. So just a quick note for housekeeping purposes before we get in here. We're recording this on Sunday afternoon because of the schedule makeover with the postponement the other night. The Red Wings are playing the ducks tonight. after we record. So slightly annoying timing from our perspective,

it would have been fun to see that matchup between some of the key Calder candidates we're going to be talking about here and be able to actually discuss it. But instead, hopefully nothing crazy will happen in the meantime. And so when people are listening to the show on Monday or Tuesday or whatever,

they're wondering why we're not talking about whatever happened on Sunday night. That's why. And the other thing is, so we planned this on like Thursday or something. We're like, all right,

like we're going to do the show on Sunday afternoon. And then the Red Wings came out and got out shot 27 to 1 in a period of hockey the other night last night. And I was actually going to come on this show and be like super optimistic just talking up the Red Wings saying all this fun stuff for Red Wings fans to get excited about. And then it's like, just watching that period, I was like, this is, wow. Max, what happened in that period? A lot. I mean, they came out and they just didn't have it.

And, you know, L.A. was all around the net. And, you know, I think it ended up being 27 to 2. they credited a late shot. They took it, they gave it, they took it away, they gave it back. But, I mean, they just played the entire period down in the Red Wings End. And honestly, it's funny because the one that was like an unassailable shot that nobody ever tried to take away was a shorthanded breakaway that very easily could have been a goal. But, no, I mean, L.A. came out and ended the game within 20 minutes.

I don't mean, there was still a two-0 game. I guess technically you could say that if they get the third goal, who knows what happens. but it never seemed like a game to me. Oh, it was a bad game. It was just one game. It was a really bad one. But the one silver lining for people that stayed up to watch that game and Red Wings fans in particular was seeing Mo Sider's Dangle at the end

where he showed that, you know, kind of burgeoning skill, especially as he's sort of spreading his wings here a bit more, just rushing up the ice and making two sweet moves back to back. And I selfishly wanted to have this, have both of you on for the show in the first place, because I've just been spending an ordinary amount of time, I'm just going back and watching most Ider tape from games so far this season and catching up on everything. And I've been bugging Ryan a bunch in the DMs just like sending him screen grabs of plays he's made and being like, did you see this?

And he's like, yeah, yeah, I've been enjoying it. It's been pretty good. So I've been so impressed by it, which kind of what he's casually been doing out there on a regular basis. And I wanted to have both of you on to kind of talk it out as fellow connoisseurs and enthusiasts. Max, I'll let you go first. What's impressed you the most just watching him and cover? him on a nightly basis that, you know, beyond the sort of the highlight reel plays, the people that are casually following might see people like myself tweeting out,

what sort of just like the details or anything in particular he does where it makes you go like, wow, I can't believe I get to watch this guy on a nightly basis. It's honestly the way that he keeps pucks in the offensive zone at the blue line, like whether he's swatting him out of the air or just getting to pucks that you think should exit the zone. I mean, this is not the thing that's going to, you know, end up on a ton of highlight reels. but when you see it happen five, six, seven, eight times in, you know, what it was, it's been three months so far the season on plays that you're like, oh, that puck leaves the

zone, I would guess, like, you know, 75% of the time and he finds a way to keep it in. That's just one of those things where you look at and you start to say, okay, I'm watching something a little bit different here. And there's other thing. And he's physical. He's, I think the passing has really surprised me and impressed me the way that he's been able to make some of these. he had one at the Blue Line a few weeks back where, you know, he kind of went under a guy and then

finished a check on a guy who was trying to finish check on him. But I would say it's the way he's kept plays in at the blue line. That's the thing that to me, you know, obviously I knew he was a smart player. I knew he was a good player. That's kind of one of those little skills that just surprises you and then you notice it over and over and over again. Brian, what's your answer to that question? You know, in addition to what Max said, which can't be overstated, his business.

decision making his poise so early in his career is just absolutely lights out. There's so much leeway for defensemen to come to this league, show some skill, and they'll make a lot of mistakes every game. And you don't write them off because it takes usually quite a bit of time for defensemen to come to form and really learn what it's like to play at the pro pace, the pro level, the kind of time and space that you have. And Sider looks like he's already been here for three, four years. You actually do a really good job, Dimitri, of catching these things.

You're in my DM, not just for the big plays, but something that people, didn't even catch you'll you'll show me uh hey look cider looked off this this uh this this forchek this pressure and made a no look past to larkin for the breakout and it didn't turn into a really big place and i would notice but he does those things constantly uh something max and i did max wrote a really great piece he followed cider's entire game and and i helped him out and we basically isoed on on cider the whole the whole game and grabbed i don't know how many clips like it felt like a hundred and every single shift you watch him he does something that That's just so impressive.

It's the Little Things is one of those adages that's just really broad and you don't really know what it means. Watch MoSider for one game and you'll realize what it's the little things means. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm sure he's benefited from having legitimate experience playing in pro leagues already heading into this season, right? Like he's an HL, but he's essentially played full seasons in the DEL, the HL, and the SHL over the past three years against grown men. And so that's clearly, you know, he's benefited from that.

But still, you're so right. It's so rare that you see a defenseman come into the NHL at 20 years old and have a game this refined or this advanced. Like usually even with the best, most exciting prospects, they come in. And like you watch them and their talent as apparent. Like you can see kind of the stuff that got them to this level, why they were such stars in every sort of junior level coming up. But you can still tell it's very raw. Like they're visibly leaning on those individual skills. But they're still trying to figure.

out the pace, the skill level in the NHL as they go along. And that's kind of why it takes them a while to get their sea legs. And that's why, unfortunately, it takes defensemen so long, typically to kind of be thrust into top, top pairing roles because NHL coaches notoriously aren't very patient types. And they aren't willing to kind of sit through those mistakes. So as soon as they make some of them, they get either benched or they get relegated to third pairing duty or whatever. And it's kind of frustrating.

But with Sider, he's immediately stepped in from day one and looked apart of someone who's pretty much already in their prime. Like certainly he'll make mistakes every here, every, every, every, every, um, every once in a while. But it's, it's so much more, uh, you know, visibly obvious just how advanced his game is already at this point. Yeah. The, um, the benefit of the DEL and that kind of market inefficiency that the red ones capitalized on.

I mean, it blew everyone out of the water. I'm not going to sit here and pretend that I was thrilled with picking MoSider at six overall. I, I think we said on the podcast when we did a Mo Cider preview earlier in the draft, kind of leading up to the draft, we thought, hey, if this is a guy who somehow slips the Red Wings in the second round, he'd be great, but not six overall. And it just goes to show how much, A, you know, what you just talked about playing those pro leagues has benefited and B, the unknown surrounding the DEL and finding Mo Sider. I think he's a diamond in the rough. I don't think every player that's coming out of the German leagues or an unscouted league is

going to be Moseider, but it certainly feeds into how he's been such a tremendous value for Detroit. Well, Max, the past couple years, this one notwithstanding, I would always have, like I do a preseason watchability rankings. And I remember it was, I guess it was like the last year, last normal year before the pandemic hit the start of the 2019 season. I think at the time I had the Red Wings like 30 to 31st on my watchability list. And you were right. No, but Wings fans were really upset with me at the start of that year before the year he didn't started. They were like, what are you talking about? Like we've got larkin.

We've got mento. we've got all these guys. And my point for ranking them so low was, I think, a really underrated quality in the current NHL is having defensemen who can move the puck up the ice, like in a coherent manner where you string together passes that lead to positive transition plays. And at the time, they just didn't have anyone that could reliably be asked, I guess maybe Filipronic. But beyond that, that could be reliably tasked with going back getting the puck and actually

getting it to Dylan Larkin consistently so that he could do something moving up the ice. And that's kind of why I was so down on them from an entertainment perspective. With Sider, what's really stood out to me has been sort of his puck handling under duress, where in the defensive zone, he's able to go back and retrieve it behind his net. And there's certainly times where he does like a highlight real play where he deeked someone out or he looks someone off and skates it out himself. But I'm almost even more impressed when he's kind of methodically picking apart a forecheck by kind of allowing the pressure to come to him

and then just simply dumping it off to a forward or his defensive partner on occasion as like a pressure release valve so they could just unopposed, skated up the ice because he's already done all the heavy lifting for them. And that's kind of really stood out to me just watching. It's very subtle, but it's for like all the nerds out there.

It's so beautiful to watch. I think that's what Ryan was talking about earlier when we spent that game. I was in Boston and he was in Waterloo. You're doing Waterloo? Yeah. And so I was just like, you know, watching the game live. And I was texting like, all right, clip like watch this and clip this.

Like, and we went through it. And as we were going, like texting, it was like, man, this is kind of crazy. Like almost every single one of these is like he's doing something positive that like you don't notice when you're really watching the Pock really or you're watching kind of overhead. Like, you know, you're kind of more when you're kind of watching the team that's playing offense. I would say most of all. And over time you go and you see all those things. Like even on the play last night with when he had the two dangles come to the neutral zone, go back and watch the. the six seconds before that happened, and he does exactly what you're just talking about.

He makes a backhand pass to Zadena that you're like, what are you doing? What are you doing? Oh, wow. And it's those plays. And most of the time, I would say they don't give you that kind of what are you doing reaction. Most of the time, it's just very clearly like, okay, I'm going to do the smart thing. I'm going to do the safe thing and make this happen.

But he's got everything in his bag. And that's the thing that I think, I don't know, I keep coming back to with him. I don't know that there's really anything at this point that I would say he can't do. And that's kind of amazing. Well, what I would say, and maybe one of you can kind of step in on this, because you're obviously more familiar with this game heading into this season. I obviously had, you know, I'd seen clips of women and read about him, but I left that to the prospect types more so just because I don't have enough time in my life

to be not watching, not NHL hockey on a daily basis. And I kind of wonder whether this is something that's always been the case or whether, you know, it's something that he's still developing. but he seems so comfortable around the offensive blue line to me in terms of, you know, you mentioned him keeping the puck in and stuff on clearing attempts, but I think even more so, like, you know, there's that one example, I believe he was either against the Devils or the Islanders recently at a home game where he navigates a zone entry and he kind of patiently holds on to the puck for half a second longer than most NHL defensemen, especially young ones

typically are willing to do because they're so worried about making a mistake. But he's comfortable kind of playing the long game in terms of. of waiting for either a clear or passing window to open up or waiting for a teammate to get to a position on the ice where he feels they're better, better suited. And so there's certain times where he like holds onto it and you're like, just your eye is so trained to seeing NHL defensemen just either kind of hammer it towards the net or just dump it down further into the zone to kind of get it away out of danger. But he's like holding on to it and waiting for something to open up. And that's such a rare quality, I think, for any defenseman, but particularly

a young one like him. something special with Sider and actually I think Max did a story where he talked to Sider's coaches over in Germany so he would be able to speak better to this is there were a lot of questions about what his offensive game could be when he was drafted and what really came about was the knowledge that in his draft year his coaches pretty much asked him to focus on his defense like get your defense up to a pro level game the offense we know your offensive skill is there but the rest of the world really didn't so that offensive acuity that you're referring to was a little bit of a mystery.

And a lot of people thought, you know, is it even there? Can he develop it? And I don't even know, I don't think it's fair to say that he's developed it. I think it was just kind of more there the whole time and a little bit buried because his coaches very fairly were focusing on developing his pro games. So that kind of patient decision making that, that ability to read the offensive zone was that leads into or that feeds into that market inefficiency I was talking about before. It was kind of buried because, A, the German League was underscouted and, B, people really didn't know the full story both sider coming into the draft.

Yeah, I can't take credit for that one, unfortunately. That one was not from one of mine, but I agree with what you're saying. I think, you know, it's less a fact of like he has materialized this puck game. And, you know, I'm sure it's developed, like for sure. I don't want to take anything away from the work that he's put in. But even early in Grand Rapids, you know, the very first year after he was drafted, you saw things. that you're like, okay, I'm supposed to think this guy doesn't have offense. And I'm thinking he's got offense, you know, and it just keeps growing.

Like, you know, his scoring at a rate right now that's higher than he scored at in the HL or in the SHL. And maybe there's some aspect of that that's just, it'll slow down as the year goes on or something. But I do think there's a large aspect of it that's just, and there's more and more here than anybody necessarily that I was reading, realized. The thing that I love about him and let's talk about his difference. defensive game because I find with these young defensemen especially like it's almost impossible

to praise someone like Kelmokar for example these days without some weirdo jumping into your mentions and being like oh yeah he's good offensively but what about his defensive game and it's like all right like I I get it but with cider if anything I find that kind of has been a strength so far of his because I love the ability to challenge puck carriers in multiple ways right like you see the finesse in terms of the stick work where he can knock it away from them or where he kind of angles them with his skating to a less dangerous position. But obviously the physicality, which has really been bubbling into the surface here recently, and kind of that mean streak has been visibly apparent. And for me, it's not so much that he's hitting people. Like, it's cool

when David Pasternak goes to hit him and he just kind of puts him on his ass and people love that sort of stuff. But for me, he's not necessarily chasing opponents around the zone and like just trying to inflict punishment or whatever. He's doing it in such a functional way, where it's just coming in the flow of a game and he's doing it to actually make some sort of a positive play, whether it's standing his ground and kind of turning the tables on an opponent with a reverse hit, or specifically knocking someone down and directly creating a change in possession, right? And I think that's such a key distinction for me because there's this weird idea out there that being analytically minded means that you don't appreciate toughness or hitting or you don't think it belongs in the game.

And I really don't know where that came from because that couldn't be more false for me. I think Sider is a perfect example of how he uses those qualities to actually generate tangible results. Like earlier in the year, I forget who it was in the blue jackets, but they're trying to create a short-handed rush chance against him. And he basically just put an end to it by just pushing him down to the ice and taking the puck from him and skating it back up the ice. And you see that from him where he's using that physicality of his, but it's with a plan. It's not just being this kind of big, lumbering guy who just hits people for the sake of hitting them. Yeah, I mean, and that's something that I think you saw in Sweden too. And something when I called people over in Rogla this summer to ask about, you know,

what was this kid like? And I tried to kind of get the backstory of the season. There was one game that a lot of guys had this strong memory of. And that was against Rolundda, where Yol Lundkvus, who's Henrik's brother, I think twin brother, actually, is kind of a, he's a big guy in that league. And he's been the captain of Ferlunda, which is one of the most storied programs in Sweden. and they all recalled this game where Yol Lungfist on the same shift. I think it was two.

It might have been three. Ryan, do you remember this detail? I vaguely remember what you're referring to, yeah. Two or three times in the same shift, Yol Lungfuss went to hit Sider and all three Sider reversed at him. I don't think that Lungfuss went down to the ice all three times. And everyone who told the story was like had all the reverence in the world for Yol Lungfus. They were like, I'm not saying this to like embarrass this guy.

I'm just telling you because like, We respect this guy so much. Like everyone thinks so much of this guy. And Mo just stood his ground and, you know, put up the shoulder and didn't take the hit, basically. Like, he gave it. And that is one of these things that I think the more you get into this season, the more you've seen it from, you mentioned the past or not going the other night. Like, you hadn't, I don't think, seen the bone crushing as much. There was a play against Dallas that is standing out in my mind at Dallas.

But, you know, by and large, like, I didn't think you'd seen the bone crushing. bone crushing as much until the last two or three weeks. And now you're like, okay, here it goes. And I wonder if that's the next element. And if that element is there consistently in the NHL, and I really think it will be that you guys, six, four and has that mean streak to him, it just adds that other wrinkle because, you know, what do you say about a guy who can stick handle the way that he does,

but also is going to make you feel your check more than, more than he will? Like, that's a scary thing. one of the most frustrating thing for me as a Red Wings fan, after Nicklitz from retired, obviously has been the defense, but seeing big defenders who refuse to use their size. I hate to pick on the guy, but Jonathan Erickson was a monster. And at times, I can pick out like maybe on two hands,

the amount of times where he would either body a guy or in a fight slam someone down. And you're like, oh, man, Jonathan, if he did that more, you'd be such a force on the ice. And I think what you guys just mentioned is what makes cider so good. He's so talented. He's skilled. He can deke. His hands are silky.

He can read the offensive zone. He has really, really good defensive sense. And he uses his size in a balanced way. He's not out there like a wrecking ball, just skating in straight lines, hoping to run into someone or putting, you know,

a cider sized hole in the boards. He uses it intelligently. And he's, it's a really balanced approach to defense. and it's just so satisfying to see. Like you said, Dimitri, just because you're analytically minded, doesn't mean you don't like physicality.

That's part of the sport. Maybe analytics, there aren't a lot of analytics that can capture that, or it's hard to put that on paper, but it is a very real part of the game, and it leads to good defense. And another thing about Sider's defensive game, and this has already kind of been mentioned here,

is he stops the play before it starts. You know, Max talked about stopping the puck at the blue line. He also stops the puck at his own blue line. You know, he shuts down so much in the neutral zone, and the best way to play defense is to not even get in your own zone. And he stops so much. His reads and his anticipation and his execution on it. Like he's very agile.

He's very nimble, especially for a guy who's like six, seven on skates. It's just he's either stopping you with great positioning and with his long stick or if he has to, he'll put you to the ice. It's, he really does do it all. I mean, this is a question for either of you. how much of his usage so far this season, which is quite impressive, and I'll get into that more and a little bit, is just that of sheer necessity because they just don't really have many other better options. How much of it is he's acquitted himself so well as we talked about that they're just comfortable feeding him as much as he can handle until he proves that he can't?

Or I guess you can frame it from like, how much of this was by design heading into the year where they're like, all right, we have the confidence level that this guy is the real deal. He's going to handle it from day one. and they plant this, you know, from training camping on, or how much of it's kind of just been like taking it as you go and just him living up to the hype and just kind of putting more and more on his plate. I would say, I would say if he wasn't this good this early,

they would have no problem playing Philip Peronick as the first, on the first pairing on the right side. Not that that would have been for the best. I think Heronik's biggest thing is he was eating way too many minutes, especially last year. And we saw that in the product. the ice, but they wouldn't have, this isn't a year where the Red Wings are challenging for the Cup. Obviously, this is best case scenario for Sider to come in, but, and perform this well, but if he

didn't, if he had a slower start, they would have been perfectly fine shuffling someone else up. That said, I think they were, they were anticipating him being the best defenseman on the team probably by the end of the season, and they were anticipating using him this way. And he has, he didn't have to force their hand. I think everyone saw this coming, but he really, really, really has grabbed the bull by the horns here. Much like Raymond did, Cider did it even earlier. Yeah, and honestly, you mentioned Hironic, and the thing that's interesting to me is, like, Hironic is another guy who came in, and as much as the Red Wings have pumped the brakes on a lot of their young guys over the years, like Hironik was coming up more or less the same time

as Dennis Chilowski, who seemed like he was on a yo-yo, you know, in and out of the the lineup up and down the lineup to Detroit and Grand Rapids. Philip Ronuk has come in and I don't think he kind of had the, you know, instant into the lineup that Chilowski. Chalowski made an opening night and stayed up and then he got sent down. And Hironick, I think, I don't remember if he was in it or not because that was the year they had a bunch of injuries on opening night, but he was, he was a Grand Rapids player. They called him up and then it was like they couldn't stop putting him out that he was playing

too much. Like, I don't know if you agree with that, Ryan, but like 23, 24 minutes a night for this guy who was in his first second year in the league and it was too much. And now he's like settled in nicely at 22. I think he looks really steady in those in those 22 minutes a night. But Sider, it's like, okay, basically from game one, he's been playing 20 minutes a night. And it almost seems like they can't help themselves as a game goes on. It's like every other shift, throw him all over the boards because, you know, he's the best option you got in most of these situations. So I don't think it's looked like too much for him. And he has, he's not usually had to be up.

quite the same once you're up at 24 man that's a ton of minutes like that's what heronick was doing but but consistently steadily 22 23 minutes a night for mart cider and he looked perfectly comfortable at him yeah he's playing uh he's playing about 22 and a half per game so far which is just a couple seconds behind tronick for the team lead but to put that usage into perspective the only other rookies this year that are averaging over 20 minutes a game are dyson mayo who's playing 2043 for the coyotes and Alexander Carrier, who's playing 2024, and both those guys are 25-year-old rookies. So clearly just in a different sort of bracket than insider at this point.

And they're leaning on them in all situations, high leverage moments. He's killing about a minute and a half or so per game on a penalty kill as well. They're entrusting him with all of that. And I think for me, I'm not necessarily that interested, especially at this point in having a, you know, Calder Trophy conversation because there's still so much hockey to be played and there's so many great candidates and I'm sure our opinions are going to change a ton so far. But it does seem like with Zegris, Raymond, and Sider, it seems like they're kind of elevating themselves from that other group of, you know, Mercer, Jarvis, Lundell, so on and so forth. And it feels like it's going to be kind of between those three.

And we'll see whether Sider and Raymond cannibalize some first place votes from themselves just because I think in, you know, certain national voters minds, they're going to have a tough time differentiating between the two or picking which one they've liked more. And so they might be like, all right, well, I'm going to put Zegris one and put Sider and Raymond, two, three in some order just because that feels right. But for me, Sider is so head and shoulders above those two guys when you think about it from the perspective of the degree of difficulty of what he's doing, right? Like that that usage, the fact that he's playing a healthy chunk of his five-on-five minutes, just dragging freaking Danny DeKeyzer around. Like for me, that is so impressive and so much more impressive than anything a forward can do at this point that I think we do need to. to factor in that when we're weighing their respective resumes because not everything is created equally and sort of the circumstances that you perform in are very relevant to who had the most impressive rookie season. Yeah, I mean, the rookie class this year is outstanding. And it's,

you know, I think that the three big ones for me right now are our cider Zegris and Raymond. But, you know, there's even guys like, you know, who's to say that if Bowen Byram can stay healthy that he can't work his way into that? Jamie Drysdale, by the way, is not that far out of being in that conversation too. I've like Dawson Mercer in New Jersey. It might be a little hard for him to catch Raymond or Zegress among the forwards, but what a fun Rookie Crop this is this year, man.

I know we don't want to turn this into a Calder talk, but I've been really impressed with the NHL's rookie class this year. I don't know why you don't want the Calder Talk. I mean, that's a really good, that's a lot of good content. I was firmly, like Lucas Raymond, I thought, yes, the degree of difficulty for cider substantially higher, and I think that's fair,

no matter how well anyone's performing. But I felt what Raymond was doing through the first 20, maybe a bit more games, was just so head and shoulders above everyone else. Obviously, he's slowed down as every rookie will have, like little slumps in their season. Even as the Red Wings as a team, and I think a lot of Raymond's slower games

or less productive games correlate to the Red Wings overall as a team. They've looked a lot worse recently. Even as that's happening, Sider has looked good. Yeah. you know, he hasn't been a superstar every single night where it's like the Red Wings got blown out or absolutely dominated by L.A. and Sider was, you know, a shining example of shifts. But a lot of shifts, a lot of shifts, you looked out there and you said Nadelcovic and Sider are the only ones doing anything good out there. And that to me has pushed Sider above Raymond in my mind. Obviously,

I have to give a lot of credits for Trevor Zegris and what he's doing as well, but even just internally within the team, I think the degree of difficulty and the consistency we've seen so far, not even halfway through the season is what gives Sighter the slight edge. So we'll see what happens for the other, you know, 40, 47 games, is it? Yeah. Yeah, I've talked to Blitzekers a bunch on this podcast. And obviously, the highlight real plays that he's had in particular, I think, are going to stick in the minds of a lot of voters and just his numbers from points to

his underlying metrics all completely check out and have no issue if you want to argue. Similarly, what we're talking about with Sider and Raymond, where, like, cosmetic effect he's had for that franchise where they went from just, just, you know, kind of being a lapping stock and people not taking them seriously to now people are tuning in to watch Ducks games just to see what Trevor Zegris does. Like that needs to be factored into this conversation. But for me with Sider, for him to be essentially breaking even at five on five on this team in the type of exposure he has where I believe they're up 23, 22 at five on five with them

on the ice and about 50% shot share is just so impressive to me because as we talked about, we're so used to see a young defenseman enter the league and really take their lumps and and get caved it until they get the hang of it, playing defense in the NHL, especially in an unshelson role, which clearly he's not doing, is about the hardest thing you can do. And it just makes me think that as this team gets better around them,

it's highly encouraging for what those figures are going to look like. But I just think of it's silly to cherry pick one game, but that game they played in Colorado earlier this year where they just got completely destroyed. And I think the abs had like 50 shots, had some insane, expected goal figure. And they got outscored. six two, the Red Wings did at five on five in that game. But Sider played led the team with

17, 15, 5 on five on five usage and the Red Wings are up to nothing with him on the ice and got outscored six nothing without him. Like to me, that just illustrated. Obviously, there's a lot to go goes into it and all that and other people are on the ice with them as well. But the impact he has when he's out there compared to when he's not is just so monstrous to me. And I just can't overlook at what I'm discussing when I'm comparing what he's doing compared to what some of these forwards are doing. Well, here's, so this, this is the PDO cast, right? I think we should get into this. Like, what, what do you make of the difference in the, because I think the expected goals right now, it's like eight points in Zegars. I think it's five, almost 56 to about 48 in terms of the

expected goals. And I know the usage is heavily tilted toward offensive zone starts on face off for Zegris, obviously not for Sider. But to me, like, that's a big, big gap. And that's like, if I was voting today, that's where I would struggle. Like, that's where Sider's case to me would be like, okay, Ken, you know, I think he's in arguably in the top three somewhere there. But, you know, what do you make of that, both of you? Because I think that is a, that's a meaningful gap there in terms of the expected goals. It is.

It certainly is. And you have to factor that in. I think the responsibility and the environment needs to be really taken into a account here, though. I can't, I don't want to. But does Zegris have that easy even environment? He's playing with Sunny Milano, who's having a great year, but it's not like he came into this season as like, you know, oh, put your rookie with him and he'll he'll excel. And it's, you know, Anaheim was worse than Detroit last year. Yep. I don't know. I don't think Zeger said it as easy. The zone starts

being what they are. But in terms of like the team context, I don't know that he's had it all that much easier. That's just, just the question that I have as a voter. You know what I mean? Counterpoint. Have Ziegers passing the puck routinely to Danny DeKaiser and see what his numbers look like. That's what I'm saying, man. It's Danny DeKisorzer on the left side. He's really bad.

He's really bad. He's been bad. But, okay, two things. Number one, again, like, yes, Sonny Milano is having an unbelievable year. What does he sign for right now, Dena? Is he even making a million dollars? No, you're right. 1.7.

Okay. So he's making 1.7. But it's not like he's. got into this situation where it's like guaranteed to succeed. Like I think he's driving the bus in that, in that way. He's a superstar. He's making everyone around a better.

There's like, it's rookie of the year, right? It's not like, you know, I agree with your point that you have to consider in some context to what they're doing. Like, and it's, you know, for that reason,

like I don't think like Michael Bunting would probably be at the top of my ballot personally, despite outstanding numbers in all ways because, you know, yeah, you're a Matthew's wing. You should do that. But you also, can't make it a hypothetical award either, right? Like, what you actually did was what matters, not what we think you would have done

if you were next to whoever, right? Like, I don't know, pick your average, Hampus Lindholm or whatever, right? Yeah, obviously, he's not average, but like your average top four guy on a contender. I don't know. I don't know if you can play that game too much of like, well, he was with this guy. We think he would have been even better if he was with this other guy. It's like, what happened, right? I don't know.

You're making the argument right now for why I currently have. cider one, Zegrois 2, and Raymond 3? I have, right now I would have cider and Zegris in some order top 2, but I don't know which way it would go. Like I think I would kind of be inclined to see that that gap in kind of the, I don't know, the underlines and go in Zegers' favor.

But the thing that would give me pause is, I think it's way harder as a defenseman as a rookie, but does that go back into the hypothetical land? To me, it's what did happen and what has happened. I might be inclined to lean Zegrois right now. I don't know. I am so glad that I don't have to vote today. I'm so glad that we have four more months for this.

Yeah, there's like 50 more games than if Ziegers has 60 points with like 15 highlight real goals created and keeps the ducks in playoff contention, then certainly. That's why it's silly to be having this composition to begin with. But I do think, yeah, the context of the playing environment, not that Ziegers has this, not that he's playing on the Colorado, Abilandje, he just gets to play with stars all. the time and thrive. Like he's clearly doing the heavy lifting on that, but I would love to see the Red Wings get Mo Sider a nice partner at some point here in the near future, whether that's Simon Ed Vincent or whoever that is, because I don't know how much longer they can keep running the Danny DeKaiser experiment out. Like it's just watching him handle the puck, whatever Sider gets it to him. It's like you just pass him a grenade. It'll be the end of this year, right?

Yeah, of course. The one thing I'll add before we take the breaks, I know we got that coming here, but I guess if we are going to make the case, it's about what happened and not, like what happens that, I don't know how much we want to factor that in, but like I guess technically Sider and Raymond do both have better goals for shares than even Zegras does. So maybe that's kind of a point back in the two Redmings guys' favor,

that yes, the underlying might go to Zegris, but, you know, cider actually does have a slightly better goals share on the ice at 5-on-5. So maybe that's, I don't know, man. This is a tough one. I'm talking

us in circles here. Yeah. All right. Let's take a quick break here. And then we're going to pick up the conversation of other things. Recognized employees with custom ink. Show customer appreciation with custom ink.

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Before we move on from cider and talk about some other Red Wing stuff, I, I've got a good story about the 2019 draft, which, Max, were you, were you heroes in Vancouver? Yes, I was here. The athletic had a whole thing where pretty much everyone came out here. We had a big staff meeting. Yeah, we were out in Burnaby. I remember that. Yeah.

So I don't, I don't really know anything about prospects. Like, I follow along as much as I can. But I just, like I said, I don't have time. to watch these guys as much as I'd like before they come to the NHL. So I was there just purely from like a networking perspective. Like I didn't have to worry about providing real time analysis on the picks or takes on like, oh, this is what this guy does well or whatever. Like I just kind of got to hang out and kind of crowdsource as much as I could.

And, you know, with the whole hockey world there, it was fun, especially pre-pandemic to just kind of bounce around and talk to people. And I remember all the buzzed that entire first night was about Siderman, Izerman going Siderman, Eiserman going off the presume board a little bit and taking Sider at six. I remember anyone I bumped into all they wanted to talk about was that pick, whether I thought it was a reach or whether he knew something we didn't and he was just sprinkling more of that magic dust of his and Sider was going to turn out to be obviously what he has so far. And the one guy I know for a fact that wasn't surprised that Sider went that high was my pal

Cam Robinson because we did a mock draft on the PDO cast. the night or two nights before the draft. It's episode 300 in the archives. I'd actually highly recommend going back to listen to it. It holds up very well, considering the amount of time has passed since then. I went back and listened to it recently. And we have this amazing sequence in there where I take Trevor Zegras for the wings at six. And I go on this whole rant about how I think he's the third best prospect on the class. If he's available there, you have to take it. It's such a great start to the Eisenman regime in Detroit. And then Cam takes cider for the Sabres at seven. And he gives out this really well thought out explanation of why he's so high on him, why it's a perfectly

reasonable spot to take him. And I just wasn't expecting it at all. I was so surprised I had him like somewhere in my teens at that point. And I was like, I say some line about like, oh, like, I like Mo cider. I'll be drinking Mo cider at the beach this summer. But I don't know, that's a bit too early for me. And maybe that's another example of why I'm an idiot. And I should just leave the stuff to the draft experts. But at the time then, the oilers are picking at eight. And I say I really hope the big centers go off the board in Doc and Cousins because it opens up the comical possibility of the Oilers taking Philip Broberg here. And I really think it could happen.

And it was just such a classic move for them to make. And just reading all the tea leaves at the time, I remember thinking, all right, there must be a reason why we're hearing all this smoke about why they're interested in them and if they're going to take them or not. And then obviously, as we know now, they wind up taking them at 8 there. And the reason why I bring this up is because I just remember. tying it back to the night of that draft. I was sitting right beside Mark Specter.

And he was so excited that Broberg was being taken because he could just draw the line between Nicholas Lidstrom, Ken Holland, Philip Broberg, and I could see the twinkle in his eye. And he had just banged out this column and he, like, ran to the podium so you could talk to Broberg and get the quotes. And he was just asking him all about Lidstrom or whatnot. And I said you guys this link, which is just hilarious column, which is like comparing Broberg to Lidsstrom. And it's just so funny to me because obviously I think it's Blasmos to compare anyone to Lidstrom, especially, you know, a young player who we haven't seen play

yet and whatnot. There's such a long way to go. But, you know, just that entire sort of dialogue about like great Red Wings defensemen and Ken Holland and everything and Mo Cider. And at the time, everyone being confused by that pick. And it's so funny a couple of years later, kind of how far we've come and how far we haven't come in regards with Philip Broberg. he's uh he's having a decent year though right like broburn i mean he's obviously not going to be in the tier of the guys who went just just uh just in front of and behind him but he's he's stepped in right yeah baker's field yeah yeah he he he's fine um it's it's it's ken holland i had a lot of i had a lot of thoughts about the way ken holland was running the

red wings towards the end of his tenure and And I said standby what I said at the time, but I will also understand and accept that he probably took more heat than he should have. A lot of things were just you couldn't stop it from snowballing, things that had started years, years before. But Ken Holland goes over to Edmonton and then automatically is just tied to this legacy that no one should ever pull in. Like you do not bring up Nicholas Littstrom, arguably the second best defenseman of all time. You'll have people who will say he's even higher than that. you can't invoke his name and attach that to Kenall and Philip Broberg. It just tanked him from the start.

It was hysterical to see and read, but that just was never going to go well. Guys, the final line of this column goes, and which number does Brogberg prefer? Obviously, he likes five. I mean, oh, man. Oh, anyways. Why not 99? Yeah. enough about cider.

You want to do a bit about Raymond? Because obviously you talk sort of about the ebbs and flows, relatively speaking to his career so far. I think I really loved his game recently against the sharks. I thought I was one of the best ones I've seen in play so far this year. He was just so aggressive in trying to create. That's kind of what I want from him at all times. I don't know if it's necessarily unfair.

I think it might be a bit unfair to expect from anyone, especially a teenager who's still adjusting to the NHL. to just expect them to be this kind of go-go-go-go player at all times. But he's such a good shooter that I constantly want to see him in that 5, 6, 7 shot attempt per game range. And especially recently he hasn't been that. There's been games where he just has like zero shots. And that's unacceptable to me because he's so good that like this team should be

finding a way to manufacture more touches. and he should be finding a way to manufacture more shots because it's going to open up so much more for him as a dual threat playmaker. And I think that is kind of his ceiling as being a guy who can just beat you in so many different ways. But for him to do that, he needs to be shooting. Well, that's what's interesting is that in his draft year, I would say if you had people rattle off a list of Lucas Raymond's skill set, I don't think shot would have come up in the first three things. Like I think it was hockey sense and playmaking and obviously elite skill. and some competitiveness, I think.

The shot is something that has taken me by total surprise. Like he came in and was immediately one of the best goal scores on the Red Wings, like in the preseason within three or four games. It was obvious that, oh, my God, this guy can score. And you know, he was a really good offensive player. He has been for a long time. But I saw him almost in that mold of like a guy who might rack up 50 to 60 assists and you're hoping he gets to 20 goals.

And now I think I see him as like a 30, to 30 goal to then like 40, 50 assist guy like superstar, right? And the shot has come out of nowhere for me. And so I wonder in part number one, like was there kind of an adjustment by the league, the opponents to know, can't give this guy a second to shoot the puck,

whereas before it might be like make sure the study guy doesn't have a lane to make a seam pass through? Because I think that's one of the things that pops to me about Lucas Ramon is he finds these seams and fits the puck's through. And then all of a sudden you were seeing wrist shot, He's beaten Mark Andre Fleury High point blank. And I wonder if maybe there's been some adjusting that's gone on there. But I agree with you.

Like he's a guy who I think can beat you in basically every way. And I think the next step is for him is going to be to add muscle. Like he's still, you know, he's 19 years old. He's down in his man body yet. And when he does, he's, I think he's a really, really outstanding player, a complete, absolutely complete player. I think that phrase gets overused sometimes. I think he's complete.

Lucas Raymond has kind of, I think he's done a lot of damage to what people's reasonable expectations should be for prospects. He said before one summer he had this injury, which kind of knocked him out for the end of his season in the SHL. Then he said he's focusing the summer on adding muscle and strengthening, especially for his shot. He wants to improve his shot. And when he did, he got a lot stronger.

And his shot, like Max said, took everyone by surprise. And now people are going to think that everyone can do what Lucas is doing, which is going be fun. But no, he's, he's, he's an all-tools guy. I'm really happy that we've moved on to Lucas Raymond because he is someone that we were as wrong as we were about cider at six. I think a lot of people were very, very excited about Lucas Raymond at four. And yeah, there are just not enough good things that can be said about his game up and down the ice. You know, I would say that San Jose game was another one where I felt the other, the opponents were collapsing on him a little bit more. Max is right. They have been taking away his space in his lanes. You know,

know the tape is out on him now. You don't see him walking up the right side without a ton of pressure. So he's not going to get those wide open shots where he can really lean into a stick as much. And then he had that ridiculous backhand pass through his own legs to the streaking Clark. And he still does those things on a night where maybe he's not, you know, the shining star. Well, he had even one sequence where like, I think it might have been Sider actually who stood someone up at Center Ice. And then Raymond kind of came back on the back check and took the puck and made a move and just basically. took it to the net and like fired a rush shot attempt and it didn't go in. But I just love that sort of

aggressive mentality from his like just for reference. He's had more than five shot attempts in a game just four times so far this year. And they all happened within the first like three weeks of the season. And he's a player who needs like, yeah, there's no reason why he shouldn't be taking six, seven shot attempts a game just because it's going to open up that passing for him. Like you're talking about kind of that pre-scouting and that tape. Like he should be a player, especially on the power play. It was so bizarre to me when I understand that it wasn't working, so they were trying to try to mix things up. But like, you don't put a player like that in the middle of the ice in the bumper slot

because that touches are just harder to come by there. Like they need to be, he needs to be on the half wall quarterbacking it as a dual thread, kind of like Kutraub obviously from a different perspective, but just like give him the puck and let him decide where it's going to go because he's such a smart player, but he can also beat the opposing defense in multiple ways. Absolutely.

I mean, in his shooting perspective, percentage is like 14 and a half. And usually when we bring up shooting percentages to say, like, I just think this guy is going to fall back down to earth. But in, in Raymond's case, I'm bringing it up really to underscore your point, which is that if you can be a 14 and a half percent shooter, you better get five shots on goal a game because then then you're going to really, like you're going to make those numbers work for you. And, you know, inevitably they always dip a little bit. I don't even think Kovetskin is a 15 percent shooter. There are, those guys do exist in the league. But oftentimes the more volume you add, the lower the percentage

goes, but to your point, like, if you're a guy who can have those four or five shots on goal a game and you have the finishing ability that he has, that's, you know, you got to just make the numbers work for you at that point. Like, you're that good. Put the shots on goal and get those balances. I think he profiles, I think he's going to be, I don't know, about 15%. I think he'll be above average shooter for his career. Like, he can be, he can beat goalies cleanly and he's smart enough where he's probably never going to be a super supremely high volume shooter. Like, he's not going to be Dylan Larkin. But I think, There's no reason to believe that he can't ramp it up

while still finding a nice balance between maintaining that efficiency and the volume. Another thing to add here is the Red Wings are still a rebuilding team. They've turned the curve a little bit here, even more than we expected this year. But the real talent and the real firepower exists solely on Lucas Raymond's line. So if Larkin and Bertuzzi are having an off-night or either one of them are injured, it's really easy to kind of game plan against Raymond. Vrona comes back.

The Red Wings add more skilled players in their top six. you don't just ISO on Raymond or try to shut him down and it opens things up. So Raymond can lean on his really, really, really good superstar level playmaking. Honestly, by the time he gets going into his career, or he can just beat you clean. It's the opportunity is there. And I think that's what you have to look forward to with him. Well, let's loop his line made Larkin into this discussion then, because I think, like, is there anyone beyond, I guess, Red Wings fans who get to watch cider and Ryman on a nightly base?

Is there any bigger winner of their, just infusion of their talent into the lineup than Larkin? Like, I just, when I was preparing for this trial, I was just kind of thinking about his career arc so far and, like, the situation he stepped into to start his career and then the playing environment that he's been in for pretty much the entirety of it up until this season. And now just imagine being him and you just get these two rookie rock star teammates to kind of just like riff with and have plays with and be able to kind of grow together. I think obviously going from being a 6.7% shooter last year, which was ridiculously low to being fueled by an 18% shooting percentage now, goes a long way here in this discussion for why Larkin, his production is through the roof. But I think it also does make sense that considering his talent level

and considering his unique physical abilities, that surrounding him with players who can kind of play off of them and help create, like that Raymond play you mentioned is a great example where Raymond's up. against the wall and he makes this pass kind of in traffic that allows Larkin to step into a rush opportunity where he's all of a sudden got significantly more space because Raymond was able to attract that attention. And that's just something he hasn't really been able to benefit from in the past as much. So it makes sense that he's having the type of year he's having.

But I just like, Max, have you, have you spoken to him at all in terms of just like that's sort of what he's been through throughout his career up until his point? And then now what it feels like to be kind of the established guy and the leader of this team while they are infusing this talent to kind of surround him? Yeah, we actually had him on the athletic hockey show not too long ago. Sean Gentilly and I, and he talked a little bit about kind of the team's evolution

and Lucas and all that stuff. And I definitely would encourage people to listen to that. I think Sean might have even written up, written up something on it. But one of the things I asked him about, like, he fascinates me for a lot of reasons. I think he's an amazing player. I think he's the guy who kind of doesn't get as much shine as he ought to just because of the state of the team.

But it fascinates me that he came in at the end, right? Like it's kind of that, okay, welcome the NHL, learn as much as he possibly can from Hendricks Zetterberg, because he's going to be gone in two years and you're going to have to deal with all this stuff. And I always think of, I asked him this question, like, how much do you think about the idea of like, in your rookie year, you're on Hendricks Zetterberg's wing and now, and he was the captain. you're the captain centering Lucas Raymond on your wing. Like how consciously do you think back and try to kind of relay that stuff? I don't think he kind of was making necessarily like the super direct parallel,

but did talk about like, you know, he's not too far removed from being in that spot and trying to, you know, pass on some wisdom there. But, you know, he talked about how he thinks Lucas makes him a better player. And I think that anyone who's watching would tell you that. Like, I agree with you about the shooting percentage. It's really hard. It's impossible to sustain a 19% shooting percentage over a full NHL season, basically. But I don't think it's completely out of nowhere either.

I think a lot of it is you add this guy onto your line. And not only is he the supreme playmaking type, but he also is drawing attention that guys, you know, how often has it been the case in Bill Narkin's entire career, at least since his first couple years, that he wasn't the number one player opposing teams, had to kind of work around, okay, just don't let this guy beat you. That's not necessarily the case anywhere.

They've got enough finally around him, including on his own, on his own line that are on the ice at the same time as he is, that players have to have their eyes double checking. Like, am I letting this guy get behind me? And I think that plays a tremendous role. And that's even in addition to the obvious where Raymond is setting him up. Like, that's just in the, you know, second order effects of having him on the ice the same time. I'm rambling now here, but Ryan, please save.

No, no, those are all really excellent points. really salient points and I'm happy you made them because it just leaves me one thing to talk about here is Dylan Larkin's career trajectory has taught me the mental value of winning. Like hockey is a mental game. Anyone knows that. But it pulled me away from being a completely firm, you know, tank, tank, tank until you're ready. And it's, you don't have to be a genius to realize that that's just not the way the NHL works.

But watching Dylan Larkin and his transformation as a player really drove home. the value of putting together at least somewhat of a winning product or a serviceable product on the ice in terms of an NHL team. You know, Max and I watch 82 games with the Red Wings last year and the year before, and you could see it on Dylan Larkin. Like nobody hated those years more than Dylan Larkin, including the fans. I've not seen a player in recent memory who hates losing more than Dylan Larkin. And the moment this team has something to believe in,

and the moment this team puts out, you know, product on the ice, where they can come into any game and have a reasonable expectation to win, that wasn't there before. And I think that's made a world of difference in his game mentally. He's dialed in. He's focused and he's doing things where, like you and Max both alluded to, we knew he had that in the tank. We knew he had those abilities,

but we just weren't seeing it night and night out. Again, a lot of it is made a lot better when Lucas Raymond is feeding you the puck and not Darren Helm some nights. But still, it's, I think, the mental impact of being on a team where you know you might be able to win that night makes a massive difference and can't be left out of the conversation. I don't want to get overly, like, right early here over like narrative-y, but like let me just like set this scene free for why I think Dylan Target is just one of the

most interesting characters in the NHL. One of the people that I really hope gets all the success that they can. So imagine you're a kid that grows up in Metro Detroit, you're a big hockey fan. You go to the university. You play your junior at the NTDG. in Ann Arbor or Plymouth. I don't remember which one I would have been at when he was there. It was right around the time when I switched.

You go to Michigan, you get drafted by the Red Wings. You join up and you play on a team with Hunter Zetterberg, and then he retires and Steve Eisenman returns to BGM. Steve Isam, who you would have grown up watching. And as one of my colleagues, Nick Baumgartner, pointed out on Twitter the day this happened, you're a kid that grows up in Detroit in the 90s. And one day Steve Isman calls you into his office

and says, I want you to be the captain of the Detroit Red Wings. that's all great. That's the fairy tale. I've written that story. We've all written that story. But the flip side is, that all comes with the price of you're going to be the captain of Detroit Red Wings in the worst part of your lifetime. Their worst run of play in your entire life, and you're the guy who's the captain for it, right? Or he might not have been the captain that year, but he was the obvious going to be the captain at worst scene in 2019, and it was still pretty bad last year. That to me is kind of this great duality for Dillen Mark, and that you get like this kidding every kid who grew up in Detroit in that age basically who was a hockey fan would have

you know traded everything for and it comes with all this losing and I think someday there's going to be if the Red Wings find a way to win a cup there's going to be a commercial about the don't Largan saga of having that amazing miraculous narrative it coming with so much pain for a guy who to Ryan's point hates losing as much as anybody I've ever been around wants to win at such a high level. And finally, you're able to pull him out of it and get there. Yeah, that's what the NHL commercials end up being, you know, 15 years later, that's what it's all about. I think he's fascinating. And he's lived quite the, quite the hockey career. And I think this next chapter has the potential to just be narrative gold for people in my profession. He's lived quite the

the hockey careers. He's like 25 or 26 years. Yeah, he's 25. He's younger than me. He's a 26-year-old hockey player. There he goes. But he's been through the ringer. I mean, I know, no kidding. But I remember talking to him. I did a story during that awful year where Colorado was in town. And I talked to Gabriel Landisog about what it was like to be a young captain on that 16, 17,

Aves team that was atrocious and the one that landed them, Kiel McCar. And then I talked to Dylan Larkin and Dylan basically, I think the quote was like, it's hardened me. And it hardened him as a as a leader. even the official captain at that time, he just was obviously going to be. And that stuck with me, ever since that story ran. Like, you know, I don't know. I think Landisog's not a bad comp for Larkin and the role that he'll ultimately play for the Red Wings. If they do get to where the Avalanche are, but that stuck with me ever since that story ran.

Well, okay. Here's an interesting sort of thought exercise for you guys that I was thinking about. You know, we talked about sort of that mutually beneficial on-ice relationship between Arayman. and Larkin in terms of how they've helped each other out in terms of Raymond getting the puck to Larkin in better spots. I think Larkins help Raymond certainly as kind of a chaperone, easing him into this level just because he's such a uniquely gifted puck transporter that he can get the puck up the ice.

And Raymond doesn't necessarily have to worry about doing the heavy lifting in that regard at all times and kind of can focus a bit more on like in zone details. Do you think long term it optimally makes sense to keep them together? or do you think that as this team gets better and there's more talent infused around them, that they'd be split up on their old lines and try to kind of have them carry their own groups? Brian, you can go first. There are a lot of different players who have played with Larkin and have been elevated by him. I see him as a pretty malleable guy who can kind of move around that top six,

or I guess right now the top six is moving around him. He's stuck on that first line for good reason. you know, Jacob Verona is going to come back at some point. The Red Wings are going to add more talent in their top six at some point. I would see, I would see and expect a version of the Red Wings where they're split up. Also remember Larkin's chemistry of Tyler Bertuzi is absolutely fantastic. And I think those guys elevate each other in a really, really big way. That's being a mutually beneficial.

That might just be a personal philosophy, though. I don't really see very many cases where there's a line that should absolutely be glued together across the league. I think it's pretty rare. You can count on a couple hands the amount of cases. But yeah, it's still early. I would expect that they get split up at some point. I'd keep them together. I know that nobody's the perfection line, but I look at that line in Boston and even that line actually isn't even together right now.

But I look at that line in the way that they complement each other. And I think there's a platonic ideal of, you know, a outstanding two-way center and nobody's Patrice Bergeron, you know, super gritty, super competitive, but also super skilled winger in Brad Marchand, obviously nobody's Brad Marchand. And then you kind of have your true offensive, but also fairly complete player in David Pasternak.

And I think, you know, it's not the perfection line, but I think you can see a rhyme for all of that there with Lark and Bertuzzi and. and Raymond, and I think when you find something like that that can work and that can, that can spark you and really win you a game. I think that lines won them several games this year. I think you keep it and you find out because you're not going to, you're not going to, right now, you wouldn't make the Red Wings a better team by breaking them up. And even if you had a couple pieces back, like Jacob Verona. Jacob Verona to me is the guy who can create offense by himself with his legs.

It's kind of similar to the way Andreas Fon. C would do it a while back. he's a guy who doesn't need hardly any time to score. And so you keep building that. You find those, as rare as they are, you find those kind of two-way centers that you can allow that game-breaking type like of Verana to be, okay, he's the offense on that line. I think Pew Souter's having a really underrated year, especially lately. If you put Jacob Verona on P.U. Suter's line,

and I don't know who goes on the other wing there, whether that be Robbie Fabri, whether that be Phillips-Zedina, whether that be Vladislav de Mestinov. I think that can still be a pretty complimentary line. And you're not done drafting, right? Like they're going to, I think they end up with a top 10 pick this year. And they got to get a forward there because they need more. They need more offense.

But long story short, I keep them together. Yeah. I just, I thought it was an interesting exercise to think about definitely more so like even like two years from now as opposed to the rest of this season. For sure. Just in terms of like maximizing skillsets. Like obviously they've played well together. but I'm really curious about sort of what Raymond's ceiling is as a person who can drive his own line because obviously we've spoken so highly of him.

And I certainly think that he's shown no reason to believe that especially as he gets closer to his prime, he won't be someone that you can just run your entire offense through. Like I want him having the puck and making decisions as much as possible. And so I just thought it would be interesting, like especially once you have more competitive aspirations, diversifying your skillsets throughout the lineup makes a lot more sense because it just makes you more difficult to defend. But I'm glad you brought up brand of there. Man, I miss him so much. I was ready to make him my poster boy for players I'm most excited about in the preseason

and then got the devastating news that he was going to have in that shoulder surgery. But I just, what's the updated timeline? Because I know you mentioned he's kind of back skating and he's traveling with a team. Yeah. It's not like a hard and fast, but it, kind of seems like maybe mid-delay February is when they're hopeful for, but he's not, he's not cleared to shoot the puck yet. So like there's still, as long as you have things like that, you're not going to get a firm date, even a firm real like range because they're not going to rush this. Like they're not going to take a chance on, you know, re-injuring, I think it's a

labrum in doing that in any year where they're probably not making the playoffs anyway. There's not really a rush back. And he's too important to them to take those chances. but as long as things go according to plan it, it does sound like kind of mid to late February would be the window where you can start, where you might expect it to at least know a timeline if he's not already backed by then. But it was cool to see him.

He's in L.A. him and Troy Stetcher were both skating after practice the other day. And, you know, he still zips around. That's for sure. You know, yeah. You know that he was one five-on-five goal off of leading the Red Wings last year? That doesn't surprise me.

He played 153 minutes from him. And four of them were in one game. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I mean, they're an offensively deficient team still. I would say that the arrivals of Raymond and Sider have actually helped it a ton. But last year, like there was, you know, how many podcast episodes did you do, Ryan?

That was just, what is it going to take for this team to score goals? They had none. Yeah. I'm not like, I don't like to self-selebrate. I have a really hard time taking any kind of like compliment. But Max, I think you and I and, you know, Prashant and Brad and Evan deserve medals for the amount of Red Wings hockey. One of the past few years. It's such a breath of fresh air to see what the Red Wings are doing this year.

And it was such a gut punch to see Verona go out like four minutes into his preseason or whatever it was. It's going to change the team if he's able to come back with any semblance of the spirit of what he was able to do in his limited time at the end of last season with Detroit. that offense, making a second line more dangerous. And then, you know, the rollover effect of potentially unlocking Phillips Adina's offense again as an idealist and maybe someone who's beating a dead horse here, then you move into a conversation of, okay, Detroit is legitimately another step closer. So, yeah. I mean, man, those 11 games he played last year, I understand the four of those goals came in the one game.

But I kind of forgot, he played like less than 20 minutes alongside Larkin. he was centered by filpula that's right like he can he can just create that for himself and like i do think him and zadina had a chemistry but like he just all the sudden there he goes on a breakaway oh he he got the puck in the offensive zone it's in the back of the net like he can just do that stuff you know i don't know that i don't know how it translates of the underlines but in terms of actual goals yeah like you give him a second and he might score he almost can't even use underlying so value a player like that because his game breaking talent is so electric they're like one Yakubrana breakaway is not equivalent to whatever shot attempt someone else gets.

Like this guy from 2018 to 2020 was 50 in 5 and 5.15 points for per 60 and third in goals. Like he is electric. I went on Ryan's podcast and I did a good 40 minutes about Yakobrana, I think, at the time of the trade. So I'm certainly excited to see him back. Is there anything else you guys want to talk about before we get out of here? Like I had a bunch of random notes, but it seems like we kind of covered the main sort of things that I think. would especially, you know, appeal to not only Reding's fans, but I think just like national observers who kind of want to get caught up on this team.

Yeah, the only other guy I would say is Nadelcovic. I mean, he's been, I think he's been really good. And to me, like, I don't know, like, that's kind of a piece that there was, it was completely, what is it going to be the Redving's future and goal? They just were rolling through different kind of 30-year-old. It's like, okay, this guy can stop the gap for a while. This guy can stop the gap for a while. Now you got a 25-year-old in there, and actually she just turned 26 a couple days ago,

happy birthday. but I think he's going to be here for a while. Yeah, the Red Wings really bought themselves a lot of time with Sebastian Coe, so by bringing in Alex Nandkevich. The line is Alex Ndalkovich for third round pick and the idea of Jonathan Bernier. That's what that trade was. And those opportunistic trades are what has defined

Isman's tenure in Detroit so far. Obviously the same thing with the Robbie Fabry trade and everything else that he's done. But yeah, Ned had a handful of games at the start of the season where he looked like he was getting accustomed to playing behind the Red Wings defense. which goalie's switching defenses is hard, and switching to the Red Wings defense is exceptionally difficult.

But yeah, he's the only thing he hasn't done so far as score, and I fully expected to do it, which is a ridiculous thing to say out loud on record. I put it in my 22 predictions. I agree. Yeah, he's been fantastic. And, you know, we were talking about last night's game where Detroit looked like a dumpster fire.

Cider looked good and Nadelcovic looked good. Yeah. He deserves a lot of credit for the Red Wing's success this year. Yeah, and being able to jump on that opportunity to basically give up a whatever pick and sign him to $3 million per season is something that you can do when you have the type of financial and contractual flexibility that the red wings have maintained throughout this. Obviously, it's easier when you just tear everything down and then you're just kind of building it back up. But I'm curious, like it makes them so viable for pretty much any potential trade as we saw last trade line, obviously when they creatively got involved in facilitating that subar trade, but also just jumping in in the last minute. and doing the brand of Ramanta trade. Like I,

that's what makes this team kind of exciting moving forward. It's that, you know, they have Steve Eisenman running it, but they also have so many avenues to realistically improve this team. And I think it's going to keep us busy in terms of following along and talking about it, because I imagine there's still a lot of moves ahead. That's a great point.

It's a great point. They've got every, every bit of ammunition that they, that they could want to improve the team they have. All right, Ryan, you go first and then Max, you can go after plug some stuff. What are you working on these days? Where can people check you out? Give us all that stuff.

Yeah, like I mentioned, I'm one of the hosts of the Winged Wheel Podcast. Brad Crisco and Evan Lobb Singer, the two others, join me on there. Winged Wheel Podcast.com at Winged Wheel Pod on Twitter. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcast. Check us out on YouTube if you like looking at our stupid faces. And as much as Max will ever lend his time, we try to have him on the show to. He's our favorite, one of our favorite recurring guest stars. So yeah, thanks for having us on the show, Dimitri.

Yeah, and I'm at theathletic.com or at M underscore Bolton on Twitter. But, Brian, we may have something fun for the people this week, yeah. I think so. All right. Well, I'm looking forward to it. I, you know what, I promise someone on Twitter, I want to put together a Mo cider mix, how to go along with. with a show so i'll tweet that out as well your dad soup one is pretty good i've seen you post that

before the dad suit and the federer ones are always classics i can always turn to those uh just watch as much of that as as humanly possible all right guys well this is a blast i'm glad we finally got to do this uh enjoy max enjoy the rest of the road trip out in california ryan uh be well and uh i'll chat with both of you soon thanks man thanks for having us all right that is going to be it for today's episode with the hockey pedio cast hopefully you enjoyed my conversation with and Max, if you did, please consider leaving us a rating and review for the show. Wherever you listen to your podcasts, they're all greatly appreciated a ton of you have done so already. And you'll love to see it. So please keep them coming in. You could just smash that five-star button. And if you're feeling extra

generous and have some more time, it only takes about a minute or so to just quickly drop a line and leave a review so other people who come across the show know either what to expect from it or why you recommend they check it out. Also, If you enjoyed the conversation and you like my work and you want to check out more of it, my writing is available at EP Ringside. If you've been kind of on the fence about signing up and you're familiar with it, you've seen some of the articles and you're curious to check out more, feel free to shoot me a line and I'll hook you up with a promo code to sign up and we'll get you all sorted for that.

There's just so much unique and thoughtful content that goes up there on a daily basis from a whole host of other writers. I really can recommend it enough. So I just recently wrote about players carrying the largest offensive burdens for their teams and sort of looking at all that and breaking it down. And there's plenty more coming from me as well on that website. So yeah, if you're interested, certainly I'd recommend checking it out.

We'll be back soon with more content here on this feed on the PDOCast. So thank you, as always, for following along. Thanks for listening. And until then. Videocast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at SoundCloud.com slash hockeypedeocast.