The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 425: Different, and Better

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

Darryl Belfry joins the show to discuss the following topics: Watching McDavid and Crosby train together How they used space as a weapon Positionless hockey vs. Positional interchangeability Getting more out of defensemen in the OZ Ways to optimize 5v5 offense Shot selection and how it affects puck recoveries The pros and cons of aiming high on goalies What makes Nikita Kucherov such a dual threat How Troy Terry attacks triangles If you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. Each one counts, and helps us out greatly. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. progressing to the mean since 2015 it's the hockey ptio cast post dmitri welcome to the hockey ptodio cast my name is demetri belfry darrell what's going on man how much just grinding away every day it's another day in hockey i guess yes yes it is do you um how do you feel about the the in season of it all compared to the off season because i imagine especially with with the n hl players that you'd work with you'd have more to actually work on adding additional skills in the off season when you have more time to actually

kind of grind out practices and really get to it. I imagine during the season, I think we talked about this last time, but I just wanted a refresher. Are you like just working more video and kind of trying to reinforce concepts you already worked on in the past? Yeah, sometimes. I mean, the work is definitely different. I mean, in the in season, obviously it's, it's exclusively video. It's not always stuff that we've worked on. Sometimes it's seeing opportunities and things. that we would like to do or we like to take advantage of or new new things that are popping up. So sometimes I view my role as I'm either a reminder or I'm a question, a question into, hey, take a look at this.

This is happening frequently. Maybe there's opportunity here to take advantage. But then in the off season, then you're taking the compilation of all those ideas and you're saying, okay, where should we best spend our time? And then it's more on ice for sure. Well, let's get right into it then because I've got a bunch of topics here that I've been thinking about when I had you on the show. I wanted to really dissect them with you. And we've been kind of bouncing around some of them off air. I guess the first one is you recently popped up in a 32 thoughts where Elliott Friedman was talking with you about, you know, kind of being there

alive for some of these McDavid and Crosby sessions when they were preparing over the summer in camps for a potential union in the Olympics, which obviously won't come to fruition now. But let's just talk a little bit about sort of that dynamic because obviously I think they're kind of considered to be the greats of their respective generations. But there's such, you know, uniquely different players in terms of their skill sets or the way they've played. But at the same time, both are still performing. at such high level. So what was it like kind of just being there for that and sort of work me through

that dynamic and kind of that chemistry and sort of how they made each other better? Well, like in a situation like that, you expect to see something that you've never seen before. That's that's the first. So your your eyes are on it. Like you're watching. You're looking for every detail. You're looking for every nuance. So you know you're about to see something that you're not normally going to see. And I, and what, what jumped out at me was like in any given, in any given game or situation, there's, there's really eight, eight pieces. You have the six players that are on your team.

Then you have the boards that you can use, which is like another player. And then now you have space. Space is now another player. And so what jumped out at me, uh, when I was watching. them play was they understood intuitively how to use that space and each one of them recognize the space at the same time or theirabouts and we're able then to take advantage where previously when I've seen space being utilized, it's usually one player that sees it.

They recognize that the other player that they're with doesn't necessarily see it. So they put the puck into that space for that. player to then go into. They guide them in. What was different about this was that both of them could see the advantage and they were able to, they knew that the space was the advantage and they just continually used it. And the more that the week went on, the more dynamic and the more different ways they used that space together. And that was the first time I'd really seen it done like, in that unison. Like I'd seen it done.

We've obviously had camps where we've had elite players together and and they've done some interesting things. And I, in looking back on it, I think I've seen this, but wasn't in a position or didn't have the knowledge to be able to recognize it. And now, now when I saw it, I just found that it was really fascinating that they were able to use space in a way that I, like the speed at which they, They were able to put the puck into space. The other guy was already moving into that space.

And you as the observer, you don't even know what they're attacking until all of a sudden it's attacked. And the same with the guys that were defending. You think you're defending people. And normally you are. It's two on two. So you defend. I got my guy. You got your guy.

We might have to switch off our guy. but these guys are using space as a player as an advantage. And it was just like if they're when they play like that, it's just at another level. And so that was what I, that was what I think jumped out at me the most was their ability to do that in sync. I'd never seen it or recognized it to the level that I saw it there. Well,

maybe this speaks to their individual respect to greatness that they're still able to put up the, the sort of stats that they, that they have been. But do you think it is kind of a potential limiting factor for them with their NHL clubs and maybe sometimes they're tasked with playing with players who can't necessarily see the ice in that regard? Obviously, these are two like supremely elite great players. So it's going to be tough to find anyone that can think along the same wavelength as them. But when you see them play off each other like that and really kind of just transcends what's going on on the ice compared to how they usually need to play, I imagine their sort of tasks and their responsibilities are

quite different. Yeah, it is. It's different. And I think where I don't know that it's limiting necessarily, but I think that they just, they just see it different. When you get to that level, that echelon of player, a lot of times, like there's physical gifts, obviously that they have that, that separates them. But more so than that is this understanding of how to put a play together and where in a given set of circumstances, where the advantage is. And I think that when you're playing on a normal team,

there are players, I think, that can see it. But they just are unsure if that's where they need to go at that given time, where these guys just, one guy would be moving and the other guy would put the puck into space or the puck would go into space. The other guy would be moving. but they both knew what they were trying to attack. And I think that that's, I think that that's, it's just interesting when you see it at that level. So it's almost like two really top NHL players that you could see on a given team.

Like obviously, dry sidles no slouch or, you know, or like Malkin or Gensel even. Gensel is, is unbelievable hockey player. Like they, I don't, I don't believe that they wouldn't know where they. that space was. It's just the way, the speed at which they were able to take advantage of it was probably what stood out the most. And then how difficult defensively it was to be able to manage players who can play at that level of intellect where they're both seeing it before it happens.

Like they both saw the advantage before the play had occurred. And then they just executed so quickly, like you didn't even know what was going to hurt you until it hurt you. It was really, it was the punch you never saw. And they would do it a hundred times. So it was really, was really fascinating. And you just see, I think, when you get to that level, just the, the subtle differences between like superstar and then like this level. Right. Like it's just there's little differences.

And it's in this type of ability. to use other things other than people. It was, in this case, it was space. And I think it's just the beginning of it. I think if we were there for, if we were there for two or three weeks, I think we would have seen even more. Like it was, it was that type of thing where it was escalating as the days were going on. Well, it's interesting you bring up that concept of using space because that's something

I've been, I've been thinking about a lot recently with regards to how to maximize the geometry of the offensive zone where it really feels like, you know, everyone always talks about how they want to see positionless hockey one day. And I think we're still a ways away from that because you watch a forward, especially when they're on the power play and a penalty killer is trying to attack them off the rush, you watch them try to defend skating backwards and you realize why defensemen are paid the way they are and why they're asked to do what they do. But I think one way we can start sort of nudge ourselves towards there is really changing the

framework of how defensemen are used offensively because it seems like such a large percentage of NHL defensemen these days are either programmed at lower levels or they're being coached up by their current coaches to basically be stationary in the offensive zone where once they get in, they basically stand at the point. Occasionally they might pinch in and try to keep it along the boards or something. But there's very little movement there and they're very risk covers. And then you watch someone like Akil McCar, for example, and obviously his sort of innate skating ability enables him to do a lot of this stuff and kind of experiment with it. And if he makes a mistake or he gets caught behind the net, he can just skate back into play and recover defensively.

But he's so willing to kind of probe around an experiment and get involved in some of these actions with McKinnon and Randon and Landisca where it really becomes kind of a five-man unit for them at times. They're playing five-on-five, but it looks like they may as well be on a power play. And that's because you've got defensemen behind the net. You've got Devon Taves kind of circling around and looking for an opportunity to jump in and hammer a one-timer. And they're just kind of not beholden to these sort of conventional, I guess, tasks or responsibilities. Okay, you stand here traditionally and you just stay there until the puck comes to you. And if it doesn't, then you skate backwards and get back on defense.

How do we sort of bridge that gap or make it so that everyone can play that way? because obviously the Colorado Avalanche have the gift of being, you know, incredibly talented in having a ton of players who can play that way. And obviously not everyone can. But at the same time, I do think kind of philosophically, there is a change needed when you look at how some of these worst teams in the league are playing on a consistent basis. Well, I think like if you don't get the D involved,

you are going to play three versus five in the offensive zone. So if you don't get the D involved, you're at a severe numerical disadvantage and offense is about movement and it's about creating numerical disadvantages. So it's really difficult and you hamstring yourself in being able to do such things if you don't get these D involved. And so the question is, is to your point, how do you get the D involved and not feel totally exposed where you're at a defensive disadvantage? And so what we see is we'll see the offensive team getting involved where you see whether it's

McCar or whoever is engaged and switching. But you also see McKinnon in the high three on two in the middle of the ice. You see rantanin in that spot a lot. And they do a lot to protect those defensemen. So

it's not necessarily position lists as much as it's positional interchange. And that the effect of that is the ability to then move the defensive shape. So every defensive, you know, when you're in the defensive zone, you have a defensive zone structure.

And then all of a sudden a defenseman takes off on the backside and goes down to behind the net. And then that winger is now going down to his icing line. So now even if they get the puck, how do they, how do they bring on? And then you have the forward that was at the net. He comes out to the top. And so now that's your defenseman that was supposed to be at the net. He's now at the top.

So now you win the puck and your best forward is at the icing line. And a defenseman who you normally would not really want to be having the puck, skating the puck through the neutral zone, organize your attack is now on the attack. So sometimes like I think the bridge to all of this is understanding the effective movement and what it has on the defensive structure, which is one. thing about how exposed they can be defensively, but it's when they get the puck, how do they counter you? They're countering you from really uncommon and very different positions because the defenseman at the net's not normally up there and now all of a sudden he's asked to be involved in a

rush. You know, you're not as exposed as maybe you would be if you were in a different way. And I think that that becomes more the bridge. And I think the other thing is it can't be just a decoy. It works in Colorado because the D that's coming down is not just coming down to fill a role. He's legitimately. He's trying to score. Yeah. He is trying to score. And so he's not going down. He's uncomfortable. He's not in a good spot. He gets painted into a corner, gets stopped. Now the puck gets stopped. You got the D in the wrong spot. Now they exit. These guys are moving. And, you know, the goal that he scored the other night that was spectacular against Nashville, you know,

like the movement that they had to create the play from a five-man unit perspective is, is I think what made the opportunity. And then he was able to recognize that this was an opportunity to attack and he took it. So I think that the more, the way, the way that we get there to not necessarily positionless hockey, but this positional interchange is we have to start understanding the game in the offensive zone from a more principled perspective.

Like what are we trying to do? Oh, we're trying to disable their breakout. We're trying to, you know, we're trying to disrupt their shape. We're trying to get them in awkward positions where if they do get the puck, it's not as dangerous against us. And we can we can kill their exit and keep coming after. The other thing, too, is like point shots now are very different. difficult to recover. And to score offensive, to score consistently in the offensive zone, like it's really difficult. And it requires a lot of different pieces to go in there. And the point

shot is a low percentage shot. And what we are starting to understand is the lower the percentage of shot that you take, the harder it is to recover. The more dangerous the shot is that you take, the easier it is to recover and the more likely that you're going to have more people moving. And Colorado and other teams that are like that, which there's a lot of teams in a league that have dynamic defensemen that get involved that way, what they're able to do is once they get you in that defensive zone, it's really hard to get the puck because they have so much movement. They're actually collectively moving at a faster rate than the defenseman, which is a principle. So now you have this speed differential.

So now anything that's shot, you're already got five people moving faster than the defensive players. You're going to win all those loose box. Where if you do it where it's three versus five, high to low, the guy shoots it, you're battling for body position. You're relatively sedentary in the sense of that your speed and the defenseman's speed are the same. So it's genuinely a 50-50. These guys aren't playing 50-50. The puck is being shot from dangerous areas. and they have so many people moving,

we're in now a shot, shot recovery type of a mode. So it's really changing that way. And we're going to need more defensemen who are more comfortable being in those positions. And to your point, more forwards who are more comfortable in the high three on two position of being able to defend from those spots.

So I think it's, it's going to be different. It's different now. And, you know, you can say, well, as a special player, Yossi is a special player.

And yeah, we don't have guys like that. Oh, you're going to have them. There's going to be lots of guys that are going to be able to do it. It's coming quicker than maybe we think and that there's going to be guys deeper in the lineup that are going to have to contribute to this type of role. Every deep playoff run starts with building an amazing team. Doing the same for your business doesn't take a room full of scouts. You just need indeed.

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and how often he was venturing down there. And it was promising it made me like think of a future where that's just not a notable thing because that's the way everyone's playing. But that's a great point about the forwards kind of being involved in this as well. Typically we think about the limitations of defensemen or their unwillingness to do so. But how often do you look and honestly, I think in any 515, sequence for the avalanche you're likely to see kl mccar behind the net and nathan mccannin at the point kind of covering that conventional defensive spot as you are their typical positions and

i think it's so interesting how mckinan loves venturing up to fill that point like part of it is by necessity if you're going to be on the ice with someone like mccar and someone needs to go up there but you know he it seems like he really likes getting up there and kind of getting some of his shots off i imagine it it gives them some additional separation from from other defensemen as well in the flow of the play just because they're not used to seeing a forward up there and all of a sudden he has more time to get a shot off than he typically otherwise would. And it also just kind of manufactures more puck touches for him. So along with the defensive responsibilities, I think, you know, he's probably not likely

to score a bunch of point shots from there. But it's certainly just kind of over the course of a five on five offensive zone sequence, it provides him with additional ways to kind of get involved and touch the puck, which is what you want from your best players. Don't forget also that there's advantages to be up there. you're likely playing against a forward who is now having to track a ton of movement. It's not traditional like skating straight out at the D and getting in a shot lane. You got this guy in the middle of the ice.

There could be three of them up there. There could be four of them up there. There could be one of them up there. And now you got a guy like McKinnon who has like gifts. He's got gifts of physical gifts. And it's unnerving for a forward to have to defend a guy with that kind of space up there who might be willing to take you on one-on-one from that position and be attacking down. So the whole thing is designed to create competitive advantage.

They're trying to find these competitive advantages, whether it's McKinnon versus a forward, that far away from his net with not a lot of support behind, to find numerical advantages at the net because they've just pulled you all over the place. a lot of times when you see a player like McKinnon doing it, he's shooting a puck, but when he shoots it, they have a three on two or a two on one at the net. He's not even trying to score from up there. He's trying to deliver the puck to the net into that numerical advantage. So I think that, you know, their team and other teams that are really proficient in this type of game

are scratching the surface. And we're going to see more and more innovation in this way because it's so hard to score in other ways. Like if you want to, you're going to have the bold D stapled to the blue line and the puck comes up there and they go D to D and then try to sift it in. The odds of you, the odds of you defending a breakout or a rush against are much higher than you recovering the puck and sustaining your offense or getting a rebound goal. It's almost like the point shot in that sense is now kind of a hope play.

It's not really an offensive stress. that you can rely on from a, from a numerical advantage. But when you start doing this type of movement and then all of a sudden, you know, McKinnon or McCar or Rantin is getting a dot to dot one timer, those are incredibly dangerous plays that are coming from this type of movement. So I think that there's going to be more to it.

And we're going to be see guys. And we're seeing it now in the league. There's guys with much less physical ability than K.L. McCar playing with less, less talented players than that Colorado line that we're referencing that are getting really involved offensively. So it's coming. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's interesting how, you know, I'm just doing some self-reflecting how much I've changed my tune. I remember when I first started analyzing hockey, I was just all I cared about was shot volume. And I would just give players credit for getting the puck to the net because I'd been sort of programmed to think that way,

right like you hear you hear people talk about it on broadcast you hear players you hear coaches talk about it you just you prioritize that above all else you get the box internet the things are going to happen and the more i've watched the more i've come to appreciate that concept of sort of decision making and shot shot selection and optimizing your offensive zone possessions right like i think having a purposeful plan for okay mapping out you can't necessarily it's not like it's not like the NFL where you can go into a play and be like all right this is where everyone needs to go and we're going to try to get the ball here and we're going to score that way. Like there's so much randomness that happens and you kind of need to adjust on the fly.

But I think generally having an idea of, okay, these are high danger areas. If we get the puck moving east-west, if we get the defensive shell stretched out, we cause some miscommunication and blown assignments, good things are going to happen. And how do we strategically find a way to get it there as opposed to just, you're right, going D-to-D and just trying to hammer the puck from the point and hope for the best. Like I honestly these days, when I see that, I, if I was tracking that game, I would mark that down as a turnover, basically, because the other team is going to recover the puck. It might, like we saw how many times did we see the one week link I thought for the

avalanche in that postseason series against the Golden Knights last year when the tide really turned was just Ryan Graves just hammering from the point. And we saw the ill effects of that where it goes off a shin pad. All of a sudden, it's a breakaway going the other way. And that's basically a turnover for me when I see that. So I just think like there's so much that goes into it, but I think enabling defensemen to or giving them the. the framework or the ability to do something with productive with the puck when they get it as opposed

to dumping it as deep as they can into the zone or hammering it from the point, I think is so important to revolutionizing 5-1-5 offense and really kind of modernizing it and optimizing it. Well, what I think you've already outlined a lot of the framework, which there's principles that then become guiding that allow people to be able to read off of each other. because when you start talking about positional interchange, there's a lot of trust that's involved. There's a lot of reading and both people kind of have to see what's, see where the advantages are and see what it is that we're really trying to do to get on the same plane. And that comes from principles and rules. And when you start talking about, well, we got a side change, you know, the guy that's coming up the wall.

If he's on his forehand, he's more willing to put the puck in the middle of the ice. So you can support in the middle if he's on his backhand, he's less likely to put a backhand puck. the middle of yice. So now you're going to support down the wall. Those are, that's a framework of an engagement. Those are rules of engagement that I now can quickly read the situation. I understand the rules. I understand the principles.

Now it's easy for me to get involved. And those are things that you can, that you can teach and you can influence. And you can get much more, like, you can get many more players in the lineup able to do that because they understand the principle. So they go, when when this guy moves, they go, oh, okay, I see what he's trying to do. So that means I got to go here because I understand the principle. I understand where we're supposed to go.

And I think, you know, when you talk about defense, defense, there's so much structure and there's positional, you have to adhere to a lot of positional constraints of where we need you to be at certain times because of, because that's what's important. In the offensive zone, it's more based on these, like, becoming more based on principles that guide movement so that we aren't moving just everyone just moving haphazardly. You might say one of our principles is ice balance. So we need to make sure that we have, you know, two people low and two people high. And then one person is, you know, creating an advantage one way or the other. Okay, but it doesn't have to be the same two people.

So now if I leave to go off the point, well, I have to know someone else is coming up because that's about, or if I'm in the offensive zone and I see one of my D leaving the point, well, that tells me right away, well, I have to go up and support that. You know, you might have rules that surround, rules that surround how the engagement is of your, of your F3, that whole position and on the ice, not, it's not a single position. It's a role that's integrated. And all five guys could end up into that position at a given time. And they need to understand what the rules and rules are of that.

And so I think what happens when we're trying to score because of how difficult over the last, you know, a six or eight years has been to score five on five, we're now seeing that, you know, you need to come out in a different way. It has to be unfamiliar than what the defense is doing. And we have to start doing things one step ahead. And these are part of it. And you're starting to see it with some of these players are revealing what these rules should be. We don't know. What do we know?

McKinnon McCarr, like these. guys are the geniuses of the game right now, these type of players. And they're in their play and their habits, they're revealing what these could be. So if we're paying attention, we could say, you know what, like that, they have ice balance. They have this guy on this side. You know, they, not only they have ice balance from the top to the bottom, but they also have it side to side. And so now if the puck turns over, they're not at a positional disbanded. They're not given up two on ones and breakways all the time because they're just overrun. Uh, because they're just running without any rhyme or reason.

There's there's rules of engagement and there's principles in play. And if they do lose the puck, they're in a position in which they can get the puck back quickly, which as much as we are in a shot, shot recovery type of game, we are also in a get the puck back as quick as you can. Because if you don't, you might not get it back at all.

Because these teams, once they get it, you know, it's hard to get the puck back. It was hard before. Now it's really hard to get the puck back. Well, okay, so related to that, I'm really curious on your thoughts on this because it feels like just anecdotally just watching all these games. Players are purposefully shooting high more often than in the past.

And I think part of the logic for that is goalies are so good and athletic these days and their pads are so massive that you're typically not going to beat a good goalie down low if they get a clean look at that shot. And especially, I said you some clips of this over the off season, but, you know, UC Soros is. someone who's obviously an aberration because he's under six foot, which is really rare in an NHL goalie these days. And he's so athletic that he goes laterally from post to post as well as anyone I've ever seen. And he's just such a freak athletically that shooting low on him, like you're probably not going to score. And so in that first round series that they played against Carolina, I felt like a lot of their skaters were typically if they had time, they were picking a spot up high near the year basically

and just trying to either bank it in off his mask or try to sneak it in right under the post there. And the logic makes a lot of sense because you get a good shot, you want to try to optimize it and you want to increase your likelihood of scoring on it. At the same time, logically, you miss the net more, I'd say,

especially over the net. And that leads to fewer opportunities to recover that puck as we've been talking about. And I imagine that must drive coach is crazy, because usually if you miss the net like that, it leads to a scoring chance going down their way because it bounces off the boards and all of a sudden it's a leakout for the other team.

How do we sort of balance those two things in terms of when you get a shot optimizing it and if that is aiming high and sort of that concept of trying to maximize the volume of opportunities and being able to get the puck back more often? Well, I think that there's some, you've got a lot of different things going on there. So I'll try to tackle them in as much of a sequence

as I can. So the first thing that I think that we have to acknowledge is that the hardest thing to do, the hardest skill in the NHL is to be able to score when the puck is on your stick for any longer than two seconds. So if you have the puck and it's on your stick for any period of time and the defense and the goalie and everyone's had an opportunity to adjust, your chances of scoring are so low. It's really hard to score like that. So now, you know, many, many of the shots are also contested. A lot of the shots are contested. So we talk about, well, you got to shoot high or whatever the case may be. It could also, one of the factors of shooting high or shooting high more often can be that their defensive stick is in the way a lot.

It's a problem. You have to solve that problem because very, rarely are you going to shoot without a defensive stick either already there or coming into quickly into that space. So some of it's a reaction of trying to get the puck out of the way of that defensive stick. I think that that's a factor. And so I think that's part of it. The other part of it too is that rebounds off of shoulders tend to be. tend to be

tend to travel for less away from the net than rebounds off of pads. Yep. So because people shoot the puck

so hard now, even when they're not shooting it hard, they shoot it really hard. You know, if you're shooting it off of a pad,

for example, it's really hard to predict the pace that puck's going to come off that pad. But when you

go off a shoulder or an arm, for example, and you go like six hole and the goalies had to reach, you know, the rebounds tend to stay more contained. So if you're shooting for a second puck, it used to be, well, go far pad. We talked about that for a decade. Now you just don't see that because it's really hard to do. And goalies are obviously smarter.

They use their sticks much better. Their angles are much better. Everything goaltending is way better. So they've seen that story before. So it's up to us as the shooters to find different ways to be able to provide dangerous shots and secondary opportunities. So I don't know that shooting high is a goal scoring is a goal scoring strategy per se. I think sometimes it's a reaction to the conditions of the stick. And it's also a reaction to the fact that if you've had the puck on your stick for any length of time,

the odds of the goalie not being square and in perfect position is probably pretty low. So you're now trying to play for the most optimized shot opportunity. The other thing is the closer you are to the net, based on the trajectory of the puck. So let's say I'm shooting from the bottom hash mark, middle bottom hash mark. If you try to hit the top corner from there and you shoot on the goalie, by the time it arrives to the goalie, it's actually. like maybe six inches to a foot off the top of his pad. So the actual, the puck hits the top corner.

But when it arrived to the goalie, it was just above his pad by six inches to a foot. Just so you see what I mean? So when you get it, when you get into distances like that, when I'm talking, that distance would be anywhere between like 22 to 30 feet. trajectory is an issue. And then the closer you get to the net, obviously now the elevation angles are very different. And now, you know, to get it up, just to get it up, an over his pad, like you're going to potentially miss the net because of the, because of how close you are.

You see what I mean with the trajectory. So these are, to me, because of where the puck is and the trajectory, the trajectory, the puck is normally on the ice unless you're like, now. these guys are reinventing some of that by, you know, scooping the puck and getting it up. It's the first time we've really seen the puck up in that area where the puck is not shot from the ice. The only time we've ever seen anything like that is a deflection of source, but that's not really a shot. We counted as a shot, but the guy wasn't shooting. He's redirecting a puck. This is very different now because it's so hard. The goalies are so big and and a shot that's high

when it was released and when it arrived at the goalie, it's not as high as we think it is, just because of the geometry of the game. So I think that those are important factors to keep in mind as it relates to that. And I also think because of what I said from the outset, the hardest thing to do is to score when you have the puck on your stick for more than two seconds. We're now seeing guys shoot off the pass, lot more.

The fuck is being shot past. And so traditionally, like those types of releases, particularly with the follow through, you're going to follow through high. You know you're trying to get away from the desperation of the goalies pad. You're trying to get it like halfway up the net and in the middle so that, you know, you're giving yourself the best opportunity. So I think those are factors into what it is that what it is that you're talking about. Well, that's a perfect segue because I wanted to talk a bit about Nikita Kutrov, because

I was so fascinated watching him play in these past couple games since he returned, just because it really gives you an added appreciation for what he's able to do in exactly that area that you're talking about, where I don't think there's any superstar in this league that has the puck on his stick for a shorter period of time than he does, which isn't to be mistaken for him being impatient or anything by any means further from that. But his ability to shoot off the pass in regards to one-timing it is so fascinating to me because he doesn't really even one-time the puck. He kind of does this sort of scoop motion where he in one move, he can receive the pass and then he can either basically kind of scoop that pass into the bumper spot and get

point a wide open look or he can sort of redirect it on net himself and it can basically serve as a one-timer for him. And I'm just so fascinated by his approach to the game in that regard where he can catch in Earl Reese from pretty much any position. Like we hear often how, you know, with any great player, like you can't really throw them a bad pass because they'll be able to make something of it. But I think that really strikes true with him where you can throw it to his front foot, his back foot, in between his skates, wherever.

And he'll be able to basically replicate whatever motion he wants to do. And it just makes him impossible to defend because regardless of where the pass is or how he's standing, he'll be able to beat you in two or three different ways. And so I just, it's a very sort of, you know, you're just talking about how if you have the puck on your stick for a longer than a period of time, you're probably not going to beat a goalie because there's so few players in today's game that have the shot talent and the ability to consistently, cleanly beat goalies.

And he sort of is a great example of that where you're never going to see him just kind of hold on to the puck for no reason until something materializes. Like, it's instantly moving off of his stick somewhere and it's so impressive to watch. So one thing about Kutrov that I think is he is he kind of innovates in one sense is that he is ability to separate his upper body from his lower body is and his comfort level of doing that very consistently in the offensive zone or when he's in an offensive situation is quite is quite fascinating. What I mean by that is like his feet are facing the net.

Yeah. But his shoulders are facing the middle of the ice. And his stick is behind him. And we're seeing more and more of like as you watch him over the, over his career. He's been doing this more and more and more. And what it does is the puck is in a shooting position all the time. And he could shoot it and he can pass to any part of that offensive zone from that position.

So he's got an ultimate like dual threat where he could do anything. And like to your point, he uses this, like you call it like a scoop motion. I call it, it's like a, it's, I call it like a whip. Yeah. It's like a whip or like in the old days, we used to call it a sweeper. Now I think he's innovated. I think it's much more of a whip because of how far he has it behind him.

He holds the puck back behind him. And when he, when he's asking for a puck on his off wing, he tends to have his stick on the back side. He doesn't hold it in the middle. Like most people, when they're expecting to get a puck from the side, they hold the puck. Like they want it in their skates. He kind of holds a stick way behind. He actually wants it behind because he has that whole like sweeping whip scooping type motion that is, that's innovative.

It's innovative. And now to your point, he's able to find other people. Now, what I find most interesting about Kutrov and what you've picked out is is really interesting. What I also think is interesting is that when he has the puck, everybody is moving. He inspires movement because he doesn't have the puck on his stick long and he can put it into spots quickly. And so he's one of those superstar players that elevates the speed of people around him because you just don't know when you're going to get it. And you're trying to move the people around him are moving to space and moving. to spots because they know if he gets it that they want to be in advantageous positions.

And there's a lot of players that when they get the puck, everyone on the ice that's on their team is slowing down because they're expecting them to either go one-on-one or they're expecting them to take some time to make a decision. And so they're trying to figure out what they're going to do with this guy. Because of the way he plays, he inspires people around him to move had a faster rate. That is to me incredible. Like that, as much as I love the, the, this whip shot and the separation of the upper body and lower body and I've studied it to nausea because I think it's, I think it is a really

innovative thing that can be transferred to other people. So I, I think that that's why not phenomenal. But the, the, the real genius in my mind is how people move. Like, you watch point when he's with him, how much movement he has and where he goes, the type of places he goes on the ice. It's interesting because he's elevating pace. And that's what we were talking about previously, about the offensive zone and how important it is to elevate the pace.

He just does that because of his style of play, which is really unique. Well, see, I think those two, and that's a great point you brought up, but I think those two are sort of almost related in a sense because we tend to loosely throw around the term dual threat for a lot of players because they can pass and shoot the puck equally well. But I think for a lot of those players, they're not necessarily dual threats

because their action in terms of whether they want to shoot or pass is predicated on where they receive the puck or sort of what position they're in. And so it's great that they can do both things, but they are limited to an extent because, especially on the power play, if you're operating from the half wall and you get the puck, depending on how you receive it,

you have a split second basically to make the next play if you want to catch the other team out of position. And you're so reliant on basically the person, typically the point man, or maybe the person on the opposite flank, where they're going to get the puck to you with him, since he can really with that scoop or whip motion do either of those, I think it also encourages the players that he's on the ice with to keep moving and keep trying to find open spots because they feel confidence knowing that this guy can get us the puck regardless of what happens in the past before it, right? And so that must be such a fun thing for a point or, you know,

Stamco's on the power play or even like a cologne around the net to have that confidence in a teammate knowing that regardless of what happens, as long as he gets the puck and it doesn't get intercepted on its way to him, I have a reasonable chance of basically having a tap-in goal here if I do my job before it. Well, it's the movement expands the amount of passing surface space that he actually has. So if you're not moving and he sees you, there's now, because you're not moving,

he has, like there's one path. Yeah, he has to get it to you. He's got to get it to you and you are where you are. Yeah. Now he might put it a little ahead of you. You might put a little behind you,

depending on the context of where the defender is, etc. What we're talking about is guys who are moving, trying to move to space, who are now expanding the amount of windows of time in which he has to be able to get you the puck. And by expanding that window, it makes it even more dangerous and try to defend that. Try to defend that kind of movement when it's not as predictable where that pass would go

because you have people that are that are in motion. I think as dangerous as he is on the power play, I think five on five when he gets to that offensive zone, I think he's even more. I think he's like he's an innovator. As much as we talk about some of these high three on two and the movement of the D and stuff like that, you take a look at a single. player who's doing things interesting that is going to inspire others. Kuturov is a really interesting player to study because he does do these really interesting

things. The way he handles the puck, the way he likes to shoot this, this like you say, a next level dual threat situation. Did you see the Kane goal last night on a power play? Yeah, yeah. Monta-bo was kind of like- Yeah, so he catches him cheating, right? Because he was- He was deceptive.

But if you watch, Kane, he's got the puck hidden. He looks like he's going to pass, which is not too much of a stretch that he's probably going to pass from there. He's typically looking for someone on the back door. And then at the last second, he, you know, changes it and turns it into a shot.

Shoots that that's what we've previously thought of as in my mind, a dual threat deception. He makes, he sets everything up to make it look like he's going to pass. He gets everyone convinced that that's the case. And then he fools you by shooting. that's that's been a previous definition of dual threat this kutrov is a whole

another level of dual threat because of the where he holds the puck and where he likes to catch the puck and his range of being able to pass or shoot and change his mind in the middle of the motion to be able to make whatever next play that he sees and of course his ice vision is spectacular his shot is ridiculous and so it just amplifies it even more Yeah, no, he's a hell of a player to watch. I'm not sure how replicable it is because it seems like he is a freak in that regard. But certainly some biomechanical stuff is interesting there. One final thing that I do want to talk about with you before we get out of here,

one concept or player is Troy Terry. And I've been blown away watching him this season because, I mean, obviously, statistically, you know, he's on pace for 47 goals or something after having 15 in his first 130 NHL games. So this is not necessarily completely out of the blue because he was a highly productive college player, you know, played for the States. Like he came in with a reputation as being a high skill level player

that could conceivably be a great NHL player, but we hadn't seen it up until this point heading into the season. And what's really stuck out to me watching him this year is how he attacks the triangles with defenders with regards to basically he's so confident in his ability now that he's seeking out these one-on-one situations where he can basically get isolated against a defender and then he puts them in a compromising situation where he puts the puck basically under their stick or between their legs and they either have to take a penalty against him

and he's one of the league leaders and penalties drawn or he just gets around them and gets a clear path to ren and i can't even count how many times he's basically dashed in for a mini break or a breakaway. So I'm just, I love watching a play. Like I know that Trevor Zegro's commands a lot of the attention because he does these sort of flashy highlight plays and he's certainly, you know, deserving of all that attention. But for me, Terry and his ability to be an entirely different player this season to me has

been just as impressive and I think deserves just as much attention. So the interesting part I think about about with Terry is that he, in coming into the NHL, one of the hardest things, like I said, the defensive stick and the defensive ability of players is so good that it would take a while, I would think, to get to the level of comfort that he is at. And it would be very brazen to just walk in and start attacking triangles the way he is. But what I think the difference is when I watch him is he likes to put the puck, not quite in the Kutcher off position, but he can separate his upper body.

from his lower body. And what he does is he puts the puck like equal to his to his skate. Like he draws it back as though he's in a shooting position. And he carries this momentum into the defender's stick space. So normally you would, you know, as a, as a player was attacking a defender one on one and was concerned about their stick, they'd have the puck in the middle of their body. And they'd be looking to try to problem solve the stick with their hands. what Terry does that I think is really interesting is he's very comfortable moving his body into the stick space of the triangle.

And to your point, he can step by you. If he has a speed differential, he can take the puck from that initial position where it's protected from the initial stick. But he uses his feet then to get into the stick range of the defender kind of cramping the stick and then puts the puck into the triangle or past the defender's feet as he steps by. him. I think what as you look at him and then you, you listen to that description, and then you think about McDavid and some of his highlight goals where he's going one on four and he's going through guys. And it's a speed differential, which is, you know, there's two or three guys in the world that have that kind of speed that can get into those positions. But he does similar things in putting the puck into that protect. He uses the triangle to protect the puck. Like that's the

area in which he's protecting the puck is in that space. And so if you can get past the defensive stick, between the defensive stick and the other side of the skates is a protected position for the puck. So because it's very difficult to defend that now that you don't have your stick, especially when you're moving back at a reasonable speed or you're concerned about the speed of the guy coming at you. So you have McDavid who has the puck in the middle of his body and he just goes quick hands to get the puck past your stick and then gets it through you and then steps on the other side. And now we're talking about Terry who's doing exactly the same thing, only he does it differently. Rather than putting the puck in the middle of his body and doing it that

way, he puts the puck to the side of his body in what we would consider like more of a shooting position. But then he uses that to get his feet to cramp the space of the defender. And then now he can shoot it. He can step by you. And he's done all those things this year. So he's really, and he can move laterally. And he's obviously been able to do it. But at previous levels, I would have thought that that would be a skill that would be difficult to transfer into the NHL. And here's a guy proving that that's not the case, that you can do it. And that using your feet in this way and having the puck in this particular position is a different way of being able to get the puck into that triangle, protect it by using it and being comfortable closer to the

defensive stick with your feet and your body and then use these like quick stick handles from that position and then also then step by with the speed differential. So he's a very interesting player in how he's doing things because like I said, he's approaching kind of an age old way of of, of, of, trying to protect the puck inside the triangle, but coming at it from a very different way, that going into it until he had this kind of success, the NHL, you wouldn't even have, you would have said,

okay, well, that's just, that's, that's a, a way that you could do it before you get to the NHL, but when you get the NHL, the defenders are too big,

the sticks are too good, they read this stuff too fast, and it's going to be very difficult. And now you see him having the confidence this year of, of doing it. It's just, it's just phenomenal. You love seeing that.

I really do. I enjoy watching it so much. I think especially like you, you know, you compare him to McDavid in that regard. I think when McDavid, I mean, clearly the speed like when it comes at you a million miles an hour, it's, it's very sort of, you know like you're like, okay, I'm in trouble. Yes. But with with with with with Terry, you know, he's obviously got agility and he's able to create that speed differential as well. But he looks so much more unassuming, right? Like when I watch him play, he kind of looks like kind of Bambi on ice sometimes where it's like, he's a bit lanky and he's sort of like you wouldn't necessarily think it's coming. And then all of a sudden,

it's almost like he lulls these defensemen to sleep a little bit or maybe kind of catches them off guard. And then all of a sudden, it's in this compromising position for them where they basically have to pick between obstructing him because they've already lost the one-on-one battle and they don't want to get embarrassed or just letting him get by them basically. And he's done it time and time again. And it's been really cool to watch.

So I'm entirely with you there. The best part about this situation, it is the reason why it's successful is because obviously he does it with, he does it with a real purpose. He understands what he's trying to do. And he is doing things different than what this defenseman is seeing. So the defenseman is playing three games in a week. He's going to be in, you know, 10 or 12 of these one-on-one situations.

Everybody in those one-on-one situations has the puck relatively close to the middle of their body as they attempt to do these sorts of things. And then this guy, he takes the puck from the middle of his body, puts it to the side of his body, and then crowds the space and then steps by you. It's different. And if different is also better, this is the result. But you got to get these young players like it, Terry,

to come up and prove it and try it at the NHL level. And I would suspect that it's going to be difficult. for defenders to initially, like, really understand how to defend him because there just isn't a lot of guys that approach it that way. There are guys that get into that puck protection position or in that shooting position, but not the way he does it. Like, the way he does it is very interesting because he's coming straight at you. Most of the time when people put the puck to the side of their body, they're also on the side of your body because it's a puck protection situation. and then at some point they try to draw it through you to get to the other side.

You know, there's all these like things that come into it. And yet he's coming straight at you. He could shoot it, which he's done. He gets in the middle of that position. All of a sudden, he shoots it through you. Or he's got it in a shooting position. You have to respect the shot. Next thing, you know, boom, like you say, all of a sudden, without really much warning,

he's stepping by you. And one-on-one in the NHL is really difficult. and to see someone, a young player, do it differently is really cool because it gives me a lot of work in a fun way. Like, that's fun work to go and figure out, like, what is he doing? How is he creating this advantage? And in my job, it's what part of this is something that, you know, another player might be able to take a look at the bones of it might be something interesting for them.

Well, when you're a young player and you're doing something differently, you better be getting results because I imagine the appetite for teams and coaches to stick with you and keep letting you try to do stuff that looks different and isn't working is very low. You're going to quickly get either benched or put in the press box or traded or sent to a different league or something like that. And so it's cool. Like I know he was sort of on thin ice last year, right? Like he was in trade rumors.

There was a lot coming around or, okay, because you're going to be able to translate this to the NHL level. What's going to happen? Is it going to have to kind of get a fair start somewhere else? And, you know, for it to work out like this is obviously great for both. him and the ducks. But it's another reminder of sort of how, how thin that margin is between basically, you know, being very productive and just never getting in the chance to really show that if it doesn't kind of happen for you quickly enough. Yeah, no, exactly. And having the

intelligence of picking his spots and being early, I'm sure he had to pick his spots. And then now he's gotten a lot more comfortable as he's been. And he's scored in different ways. And it's really leveraged itself in, but this is a core piece. But, like in the NHL, you don't score whatever it is. What is he got, 22, 23, 23 goals. You don't, he's not scoring the exact same way, 22, 23 times. This is a piece of what he's doing. He's doing other things also that are really interesting.

And it's just opened up his whole game to be able to do some, some other things. And confidence in the NHL is, uh, is a, is a really, that's the most valuable commodity because it's so hard, uh, to get, particularly for a young player for all the reasons that you talked about. All right, well, Daryl, I've got a bunch of other topics here, but I'm going to save them for, I'm going to have you back on the show sometime down the road and we're going to get into them.

So I'm going to cut it off here. I'm going to let you plug some stuff. Give the listeners an idea of sort of what you've got coming up or what you're working on or what have you. Because last time I had you on, your book had come out. And obviously we talked about that at length. And it was a great read. And I recommend anyone that's listening to this and is interested by our conversation

to go check that out if they haven't already. although I'd like to think a lot of my listenership Hal already has. But yeah, just let us know sort of what's next for you. So what's next is we've started this coaches and skill coaches workshop that we're going to do in Florida. We're going to bring anybody really whose interest doesn't have to be coaches or skill coaches, but it'll be kind of geared towards them about a lot of topics

like this, about different types of skill, kind of my perspective of what I see, what I see in offense and where I think the game is going and then try to relate that to how it can be taught. And so we're going to do a two-day thing down in Florida and April, so we're excited about that. And then we started this membership program on our website where we're doing, taking a look at different key development pieces for young players as they're going through that may not be,

we think are really important transferable skills going forward, but maybe on the underground of what, what is maybe normally out there. So those are the two main things, I think, one kind of dovetails into the other. So we're really excited about, I think moving into more of a phase of looking to kind of become more of an educator of what we see. And so the book,

I think the, you know, the reaction that we got from people on the book has really inspired me that, okay, maybe there are more people that are really excited about learning more about these types of things. And so we're going to, we're going to drop these two things.

things here. Like the membership is going now. And like I said, the first one will be this, the first one of these workshops will be this year. So we tried to do it a couple years ago, of course, but it got cut because of COVID. And we're holding on, hoping that we'll be able to get this one. Awesome. Well, this is a blast, I'm glad we finally got to do this. It's always fun chatting with you. And I'm looking forward to our next conversation already. So until then, be well, man. Yeah, you too. Take care. Thanks. All right. That's going to be it for today's episode of the Hockeypedio cast. Hopefully you enjoyed the episode with Dale Belfrey.

I personally love chatting with them. There's so much insightful content in there and useful nuggets to kind of apply to the next time you're watching some of the players we talked about. So hopefully you get some good use out of that and enjoyed listening. If you did, please consider helping us out by leaving a quick little rating and review

wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you listen on Spotify, you can leave reviews now there as well. So please go do that. And yeah, if you're feeling generous and you got an extra minute, just write up a quick little note as well for the review in terms of why you enjoy listening to the show or why you'd recommend people who come across it but haven't listened yet and are on the fence. Check it out. So thank you for doing that. If you enjoyed the podcast and you like my work, you can also find my written stuff at EPRinkside as well where you can subscribe and get access to not only my stuff, but most importantly, all the stuff that my great colleagues churn out there on a daily basis as well. There's a ton of unique insightful content there for your reading pleasure. So that's going to be it for today's episode. Thanks for listening. And we're going to be back soon with more. So until then,

Hockey P.DOCIS with Dmitri Filippovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockey pdocast.