The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 435: Workshopping Offensive Principles

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

Darryl Belfry joins the show to discuss his coaching workshop, the offensive principles the best teams in the league adhere to, and working with players to implement new skills in their game. Topics include: Fixing vs. investing in development The importance of cumulative shift effect How players like Devon Toews defend proactively Five-man units and moving in the offensive zone Positionless hockey vs. Positional interchangeability Stacking skills and building off of them Establishing speed differential and attacking creatively Zegras doing the Michigan, and what comes next Earning trust and building relationships with players How to teach something new that feels differential initially Dealing with short term results and making adjustments If you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help, each one is much appreciated! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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It's all about letting your run be your run. And Brooks is here for every runner. Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. To the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey P.O.cast. My name is Dimitri Filippovich. And joining me, he's my good buddy, Daryl Belfrey. Daryl, what's going on, then? We're in the throes of it right now. It's pretty exciting. We are. We're recording this. I was going to say from live from sunny Florida, but I've been spending my entire week here in, in like, the coldest ice rinks that I could possibly find. So it's, it is sunny out there, but we're in the rink.

right now in a colder climate and uh yeah no i'm excited to do this i'm obviously i guess listeners know because i talked about it on a recent podcast but i'm here in town for your coach's workshop and uh we're recording this on wednesday afternoon or whatever so it's finishing up uh today um it's exciting to do this because the last time i had you on it was one of my one of my personal favorite podcast but also the feedback where people were like i could just like read a full audio book or listen to a full audio book on this. I just want to hear you guys talk about because I feel like we started off with

like key principles. We were talking about motion offense and stuff and we're going to talk more about that today. But then I feel like we just started riffing about random like individual skills that we've noticed and people were like, oh, I've been seeing that and now hearing you guys just talk about it like really scratched an itch.

Yeah. No, it is interesting. Like once you, I find that that's my favorite part about doing these is that, you know, you have this thing in your head about certain messages. that you'd like to impart to the listener, but then the best parts of it actually come from, like, the things you weren't planning,

and then it just, the conversation gets going, and then next thing, you know, you're into some really interesting stuff. So what do you want to talk about today? Like, what interest you most?

Because obviously, you've been covering a variety of topics so far this week, and a lot of it is, I mean, there's enough meat on the bone. We could just pick one of them and basically do a full show on it. But what's most interesting to you in terms of all this stuff?

What's, like, the most interesting part for me, is trying to take a lot of the concepts that, you know, we see or that I'm dealing with with the players that I deal with in the NHL, like that's the sphere that I'm largely in, and then trying to create actionable activity for anybody that's in hockey that's trying to influence either their own kid or their a coach of a team at any day. different level and be able to illustrate through NHL, you know, examples that this is not these skills and the application of these skills and the way in which they're utilized.

There's obviously there's theory behind it that can be broken down and if used properly, it can be used by anybody. And so that's really that. I think the crux of what I was trying to do, I think that's what the interesting challenge. down here in this environment and I've always wanted to do it this way like so the way I tried to set this up was to have it to be very like development is progressive right so it progressive in the sense is like one thing leads to the next and things kind of stack on top of each other but I've never really seen like a conference of sorts in which the speaking topics were

layered so that they were revealed in the correct order right or in the proper order so that things could kind of come full circle a lot so that was and in doing that it gives me a chance to take my time but be more relatable to the to the people because I can start kind of at the beginning of the context and then walk them through so I think the reaction of of the people that are here we have people from like literally all of the like people from Europe there's people from you know NCAA and there's people from all different other parts of hockey so trying to make a relatable is a real challenge and i i just love that part yeah i guess you know hearing you say that i i wonder about the relatability because obviously like this is an n hl podcast as well and we're going to

talk about but just like the individual sort of skills you've been talking about and then how you you piece them all together in a stepwise format for players um that are at the youth level or at lower levels or even a major junior or what have you um or even you can say the hl for for nashel purposes as a developmental league. I'm always fascinated by this idea of kind of how you're operating from like a long-term best interest perspective, where are you trying to just win the present day at whatever level you're playing at, where I'm sure there's probably shortcuts you can take in terms of the way you play or the way you shoot or the way you skate that might be good enough for the current league you're playing in, but might not be establishing the best habits for your long-term outlook

if you are going to go on to future levels. You know what I mean? I wonder how much of that. Do you think like that's kind of a bit of a roadwalk? Or do you think that kind of a lot of this stuff is very applicable to all sorts of levels, really from the start of when you start playing hockey? Well, like all development, there's kind of two real approaches. You're either like fixing or you're investing.

Yeah. Right. And sometimes by fixing, you are investing because the best part about player development is that it's just not really like singular it has like it's one it's like an ecosystem right like you you impact one thing and it has like these ripple effects over over other things so part of the real part of the real challenge i think with with player development and trying to you know win the day today and then an influence a player's ability to be better like in the game tonight.

Right. And then also be better going forward is to understand what those, what those ripple effects are, be able to anticipate. Like if I make a change here, positive influence in that player here, what can I anticipate that I can use that ripple effect and be able to leverage other skills? So, for example, if I can make a player, if I can improve where they put the puck, like when they and how they use the puck to influence their skating,

I can reduce the amount of times in which in changes a direction, they dramatically slow down. So now because I reduce the amount of time they dramatically slow down, I can get them into better ice. Once a player is in better ice, what's the impact of that? Well, now they're going to have more time. More time usually means a possibility to make better decisions. So the ripple effect of the impact of just saying,

okay, this player puts the puck in change of direction, in awkward spots on their body that reduces their ability now to move, the impact of that is that now they're unable to get into positive space or the space in which they move in is going to be continued to be contested, making the decision making much more difficult. So that to me is the real kind of interesting part of that is just the ripple effect. And over time as I've gone through this, I've learned how to anticipate those areas. and know, you know, this fix is actually an investment that's going to then open up, like, a door of opportunity to then go into other things.

And then the other factor is sometimes it's a straight investment. Like you're literally planting a seed in the ground and you got to go and water it every day and it's going to be there for months and months and you're not going to see a single thing. but if you're diligent with it and you stay with it and you work with it eventually you know you don't realize what's going on under the surface and eventually it comes and then that opens up another thing but in pro hockey

it's there's not a lot like the patience level of course can't be that that much because we need to win and you know and and so trying to strike that balance and you know when you're still a prospect there's opportunity to plant a lot of seeds

and the more you do that, then the better it is. Well, I think that that concept that you brought up there of puck placement is such a perfect example that you spent a lot of time talking about that today. And that's something that I didn't necessarily really think about because, you know, we spent a lot of time in, especially in the media game and for myself in terms of analytics and looking at ways to optimize offense, thinking about, okay, how do we increase a player's shooting percentage? because it's what you're scoring between 10 and 12% most likely. I think the league average is around 11.

If you're an elite player, you're 15. Maybe you're having an outlier season and you're going to score 20% of your goals, but then next year you're going to regress to come down. It's crazy to think that, you know, you're shooting at 10 times, you're failing nine times in theory if you're purely looking at it from the perspective of did the puck go into the net or not on this one. Yes. And actually it's probably even more than that because for shooting percentage,

we use pure shots on goal, which strips away all the times you missed the net or got blocked, which in theory accounts for a shot attempt that you took. Absolutely. And so, you know, we've been thinking about a lot of east-west passing. We've been thinking about passes coming out from behind the net, kind of changing the vantage point of the goalie. And that concept of puck placement in terms of, and even your skate placement, whether the route you're taking to shoot was such an enlightening one for me to think about in terms of explaining how you can, two guys can take, or the same player can take the same shot from the same

position on the ice, but this one little tweak could potentially entirely change the formula in their favor because it's affecting what the goalie's doing or what the defender's doing and trying to stay in front of them. Yeah, it's a major aspect, I think, of reshaping in players' minds what a good shot actually is. I think that's number one. And, you know, In most players' mind, like, they're trying to shoot, especially if they're a score, they're trying to shoot to score. And to your point, like, even if they're unbelievable, they're still, you know, failing a lot of times.

Failing a lot, right? But in their mind, like, they have the whole benefit of expectations, so they know that they're going to get another one and all that kind of good stuff. That's all great. But you're right. Like, a player, the same player could come into two identical shot situations. and one shot is going to be a tremendously more effective shot due to the route that they took to get into that shot situation. Right.

So by changing their feet to go down towards the end boards rather than having their feet go towards the goalie, that just simple change of how their feet go. That influences the way their upper body releases the puck. It influences where the release point is between their stick and the weight, how much they're able to change the angle of the shot. And then it puts the goalie, depending on the location of the eyes, they could be catching the goalie in a transition time where they're trying to move. So I find that the guys that score the most,

They catch, on-stick shooters, which is the hardest way to score in the NHL is to be a person that the puck is on your stick for a duration of time before you're shooting allows the goalie to get set. That's the hardest way to score. So in these situations, the way in which you set up your footwork can be a difference maker in the quality of that shot. Now, changing the quality of the shot idea too. like is there is the shot this shot that you take like first does it go in great if it doesn't then what happens next because to your point so many of them don't go in but yet we want to get more it's still a race to a hundred yeah because you want to keep the math in your favor so if you're not if you're racing to get to a hundred well we need another shot so if you shoot the puck and it leads

to exits well you're not getting more you're you're losing you're losing you're the race to 100. You want to shoot, have it be a dangerous puck. The goalie has a hard time with. It leads to puck recovery by your team. Now there's more offensive zone puck time. You perhaps might get another shot opportunity. And we know that especially the top players in the league, the more frequently they get the puck in that given shot, in that given possession sequence, the better the chance quality is going to be for them to attack. So you have a all these things starting to tilt downhill, if you really start to look at it from that lens, you can start to say, okay, you know, we still know that the math, like, we're not going to

turn, we're not going to invert the whole thing and all of a sudden you're going to be an 80% shooter. You're still, at best, going to be 20%. So you still have eight out of ten of these are not going in, but what is the quality of those eight and what's the contribution to those eight to then further team possession, which might get you a better look for a more dangerous position. You know what I mean? Like if that makes sense, that's what it's about.

You're preaching to the choir right now. This is something that I've been talking about for a long time. And it was one of your core principles when you were talking about sort of your values for how to construct an offense or how you want a team to play, right? It's this idea that if you do your job, you're going to not have to worry about the defensive zone because you're not going to be there. and I'm constantly frustrated as someone who watches an unreasonable amount of NHL hockey. And it is the best league in the world for this sport, the highest levels played. And at the same time, some of the strategy to me is so bewildering in terms of how conservative it can get, where instead of just breaking up a player contesting an exit while you're already in the offensive zone

and potentially trying to consolidate that possession and keep it going, you see players who I think have been told, all right, don't get beat and embarrassed. So take a few steps back, give that gap, and we'll deal with this problem later. It's kind of like putting off your problems until tomorrow. Like, why do I deal with it today? It's going to be a little, you know, I'm going to have to put in a bit of work, maybe create a little physical contact, maybe try a bit harder. I'll just save it for 10 seconds down the line when I can do it in my own zone.

And that's just so frustrating me seeing that because, Yeah, like you should be just contesting it right away because you can create an additional opportunity while you're already there. Well, the hardest play to defend is speed. Yes. And the best way to counter speed is to get it, defend it before it gets to speed. So to your point, like in playing, trying to play sometimes conservative, we're like, okay, like, I can try to contest this play early and try to kill the play or at least negatively influence its ability to create a meaningful attack against me. I can try to do that early.

But there are some risks involved in that because as I'm going over there, you know, I don't make a good play. Then, of course, then now I can get beat and then that could lead to speed against. Fair enough. but then if you don't go, you're now delaying the inevitable, which is now it's infinitely harder because you may not have now the numbers to be able to defend it. Like at least if you try to contest things sometimes early, you get it before it's organized.

The more conservative that you play sometimes, you allow for the organization of that speed. Now, the counterpoint is that yes, we can also organize defensively and get more people. But there's a situation always in hockey where it's in the gray area that's where all the real offensive gold is. So when it's set and it's like it's crystal clear, okay, you have the puck and we are defending, then yeah, of course.

Now the defense is in a really good position and they can do things. to influence the quality or the options that you may have as a puck-carrying team. But when you are kind of, you thought you were on offense, and now all of a sudden you're quickly now on defense, which happens so frequently during the game, there's so much time where there's a window of opportunity, where you defensively could now kill something before it, becomes a problem.

And I think the game is starting to move towards that more and more and more because it's also really hard to get the puck back once you lose it. And some of these teams, they play such a, like, they can elevate the speed to a level that's difficult for you to play, like to defend at. Because they're just playing so much movement and the puck moves so fast. I think that's the difference too is like what we're seeing now is that the pace of play is so much determined by the speed of the people off the puck and how fast they're able to get in transition and how fast they're able to get up the ice. And then the quality of the ability to pass the puck, you know, a zone, a full zone ahead or pass the puck for distance or change sides and then go up. you're able you can get into a lot of trouble really fast in this league now because of that

against some of these teams so it's fascinating to me well i think we actually specifically highlighted the the avalanche the last time we did this i kind of wanted to build on it more because you talked about it as well this week this idea of um kind of the cumulative shift effect right in terms of um you have one positive shift and especially territorially maybe and then That allows your teammates who are coming on over the boards and onto the ice next to inherit a position of strength. And then they can build on that. And then all of a sudden you string together three, four, five, six consecutive positive shifts. And you're probably most likely going to draw a penalty, get a power plate, score a goal, certainly create chances.

And maybe the other team's goalie plays really well. It makes a bunch of saves. And nothing comes of it. But that's ultimately what you're trying to work towards, right? and I think the avalanche are still the best example of this. I think the flames under Daryl Sutter have been playing this sort of swarming mentality in the neutral zone this season as well to great success in the Leaves and Panthers. Pretty much every team that's having success this season is incorporating an element of this. But the avalanche still are the best example to me because especially when they have McCarra and Taves out there as their top pair,

I've been thinking a lot about why Devon Taves is so successful as a player because you're certainly never going to mistake him and Kill O'Car for one another when you see the two of them skate, yet you never really see Devon Taves get burnt by speed. And it's because I think he does exactly this, where he doesn't really ever put himself in a position where all of a sudden he's having to backpedal because someone is coming full speed at him and he's having to suddenly pivot and create a vulnerable situation where someone's going to attack him. He's kind of keeping everything in front of him and then defending skating forwards, as you

we were talking about. And that in and of itself makes him really fast because all of these guys can skate fast forwards in a couple strides. And so it ultimately doesn't matter that he can't skate as beautifully as Kilamakara because in that sense, he can be just as fast. Well, where the speed is made up is that he's not in recovery. He's proactive, right? So he's anticipating that play might turn.

He's already attached to the speed. threat, and now if they try to use the speed threat, he's already there and is able to kill the play before it gets started. He's not in recovery. And oftentimes where we run into a lot of trouble, even with the great skaters, is that when you can push them into recovery, they're having to recover a position. And whenever they have to recover a position, they're chasing something, right? So then the lines become straighter and their footwork then works against them because the

the better the skater, the more fluid they are, the more space that they use. And then when you put them in recovery, it's now they have to go straighter, straight lines. And they're, you know, it's a much, they're sprinting to try to get to a specific spot. So you're taking a lot of that skating, the best parts of their skating, and you're taking it off the table. So a guy like, a guy like Taze does such a great job of being able to mitigate issues, before it starts. And, you know, the benefit that he has as well is they spend a ton of time already in

the offensive zone. Right. So it makes it makes it makes it a lot different. And that's why for me, like when we've been talking this week, we've talked about these teams and, you know, even like Florida right now, they're crazy, good offensive team. They spend a ton of time in the offensive zone. So it, from a defenseman perspective, it reduces the amount of, you know, it reduces the amount

a time that you have to defend actually going out like coming back backpedaling out of your zone you're actually going forward which makes it easier so you're killing a lot of plays before it starts and then you get a lot of reentry the thing that you were describing before about the cumulative shift is cumulative shift is basically a definition of momentum right basically what it is it's the it's the actionable aspect of of how you would build momentum from one shift and shift to the next. What does that look like? Well, it might start with a defensive zone faceoff, and my job is just to transport the puck from the D zone, get it through the neutral zone, get it in the offensive zone. Once I get in the offensive zone, now I need to execute a change.

Once I execute a change, those two shifts now are not even. My shift, I've executed my shift, and I've now left. I've left the line that was defending us. They're still on there. So my next line that's coming out there is going against a line. that's already been on the ice for 20 seconds. Those shifts are not even. And so now it changes the context of each of those shifts. And putting teams and lines, for example, in deficit situations where they have to work out of a whole to then create a net positive to try to turn it. you're starting to see like some of these teams will put together seven, eight, ten minutes,

sometimes periods at a time where the ice is just tilted. And they're doing it from deficits. They continue to put, the opponent gets put in a deficit all the time. From a line perspective, from a zone start perspective, from, you know, they get caught kind of halfway. Like you get that icing that happens. midway through shift changes and stuff like that. They can't get matchups properly. They can't get their fourth line on the ice.

So now the fourth line misses a sequence because they can't get on or you took a penalty and now they can't get on. So that messes up the rhythm. And so what I love about like a cumulative shift effect or the ability to build momentum with the real effect of that is that it creates opportunity for teams to like impose a. game will against the other. And then now, you know, you can put people in a spot where they're almost just getting rid of the puck and they're just keeping it back to you because they're trying to alleviate and reduce the pressure. And then, of course, the offense is about rhythm.

It's rhythm and timing. So now I'm dictating the game to you because I'm controlling. I'm in advantageous shifts all the time. our team is moving, the puck is moving, our best people are getting the puck frequently, they're in rhythm. The other team is at a deficit. They've had three or four shifts

where they can't really get out of the mud and then their best player hasn't touched the puck or when they do get it, they're under so much pressure they can't really establish any speed. That to me is the game control thing that's happening that's really fascinating to watch and can influence it. Well, especially in the second period

with a long change where you can kind of wield that to your advantage. You see, like, if you watch a NABs game, obviously, if everything went according to script, you would just get into the zone, score on the initial rush chance and be done with it, and you'd be up one-nothing on the scoreboard, right? We just talked about how that, even on the rush, it might be a higher percentage likelihood

that you're going to convert, but still not nearly high enough. So what's going to happen next? You kind of pressure the team, and they basically, either you keep it in the zone or more likely, they kind of after 30 seconds, 40 seconds, their legs are burning. They don't want to do anything productive with it.

They kind of meekly just dump it into center ice, basically, up against the boards usually, right? Just kind of just try to get it off the boards and out. Right. What's funny to me is you see constantly that team generally has about, let's say, two guys who have probably been on the ice the longest who decide, all right, screw this. I'm getting off the ice right now.

I know it's a long change, but I can't be out here any longer. So you've got those two guys kind of creating this chaotic situation where they're rushing to hop over the boards. Meanwhile, it leaves their whatever, two or three guys left on the ice, kind of trying to cover all of this real estate all of a sudden. And the abs are so good at that, especially going from McCar to Taves, where he on the weak side then kind of sprints in,

and you're also creating, what you also like to talk about, that speed differential now all of a sudden where you're taking this kind of static neutral zone situation and getting another quick rush attempt, basically, because there's no one manning that point all of a sudden because that guy's just gone off the ice. Yeah, well, you're exactly right. So what you have now is you have this counter offense.

Yeah. Out of a situation that you wouldn't think would like, like everything's kind of stuck in the middle of the ice. It's not necessarily a... The opponent has been in their own zone defending. They probably could have defended really well, not really giving up anything, right? And then all of a sudden, like,

they're just trying to like, to your point, just get a chip out and try to get off. And then we're able to get it, turn it, and then re-enter it. And that's an unopposed entry. it's uncontested and now you're also elevating the speed. It's a speed differential

so now you're taking a problem and making it even worse and then you have people that are just coming on the ice. Talk about a deficit. They're coming on the ice in the second period from their long change, trying to sprint back to get into their spot. The other teams already in a whirling dervish in the offensive zone

you know it can be really it can be really problematic. The other piece that goes with that and it's really changed my perspective on initially speed differential. Speed differential used to be for me, primarily like a rush thing, where we talked a lot about having speed coming in in layers

and speed coming from behind the puck, you know, type of thing, which gave you this differential. So, you know, if you could envision, you're coming out, you're breaking out of your zone and the weak side forward, sprints out to pull the D back, and then that creates the runway of space underneath.

Now you find someone under the, underneath, they are now sprinting and picking up speed in that runway between the neutral zone. The 2D are gaped to the wrong guy because you didn't pass to that stretch guy. You just used them to kind of pull the D out. Well, now the D is slowing down because they can't continue to speed up. So now you have the D slowing down, and now you have this next wave of forwards are flying, building speed. That's the speed differential that I thought was kind of an equalizer of some sorts to players who weren't always as fleet of foot that the game speed that's the game speed part of how players who aren't

aren't as fast can play really fast is through something like that so that for the longest time that was really the context that i was using a lot of speed differential and then over the last little while i've been more concerned about what's going on once the play is in the zone and what we're starting to see with a lot of these teams that are offense like tearing the league part is that they are elevating the speed and the pace of play once they're in the zone. So you see this differential of speed where the defending team is at a certain pace and the offensive team is faster. And they're moving faster. And the advantage of that, and this is what I think has really changed a lot of things and what's really made it so hard to get the puck sometimes is that the speed of the offensive group is faster.

so they get every loose puck because they're moving at a higher rate already. And if they're reloading in the high parts of the zone, now not only they're getting these loose puck, but they're coming down on you. So they're really making it difficult for you to really, it's not like they're elevating. And then when you get it, you can kind of have skated out of the zone.

They're already on top of you and pushing down on you to keep you in the zone. And then that's what forces, these chip outs, and then it can create this real, like, talk about momentum. That's really what's happening. And it's fascinating to see, like, once they kind of get that grip and these deficit shifts start to accumulate, it can be really interesting to see that's how real offense is now starting to really take hold and take shape. Yeah, yeah.

Well, you're certainly noticing, I mean, it's still not nearly enough of it from my liking in the league, but I guess that's what separates the really good teams. from the ones who are trying to get there is that concept of like kind of the motion offense in the attacking zone where I think there's this that maybe is still a misconception that I don't think we need to get to a place where you have five positionless players, but maybe positionless in the sense that they're all allowed

to equally occupy spaces in the offensive zone where we're not so beholden to, all right, you've got your two defensemen on the blue line, they're not allowed to move off there because if we have a turnover or whatever, they need to be the first ones back and we can't live with whatever happens otherwise. So they're stuck there.

And then all of a sudden, you've got these loose pucks that are kind of halfway between them and the end wall. And instead of going to contest it or try to get it or extend the possession, they're basically like, all right, well, I'm not going to risk it. And so that leads to the puck coming out. And that's obviously not as much of a concern

with some of these high octane offenses because you're going to find a defenseman behind the net and all of a sudden. And then I think something you brought up as well, it was interesting kind of tying into that was what it does to the defensive structure where all of a sudden maybe you have a defenseman on the other team who's all of a sudden in a position now

where even if they do get the puck, they're not really trained on what to do next with it. You're not worried that they're going to lead a two-on-one rush the other way because that's not how they're programmed. So it kind of even neutralizes some of the potential concerns about what could happen if our defenseman is out of position. Yeah, like I think I'm with you. I don't see like position lists. I still think that there's going to be a need for the defensemen who defend and and and alike, but I do believe in positional interchange, which is I think what we're seeing now. And what what you start to see is that, you know, like a defense, the weak side defenseman attacks down, leaves his position and he goes down to the backside, right? And then his support maybe down below the icing. line to your point. So what does his normal check do defensively? Like that weak side defensive forward,

what does he, does he hold that position? Like, does he have to go down there? Like, there's decisions that have to be made about, like, how do we, how do we do that? Like, who's responsible? And often it kind of stretches and pulls and tugs at the structure of the defensive structure to have some of this. And then that player, the D goes down and then whatever happens, happens, and then they come back up. And the forward that was up there, holding that position, they're now diving down from a new position, but who's responsible for them now? Because that's now a forward, not a D.

That's a forward coming down there. So it creates these awkward defensive decisions that require a lot of structure, but you're constantly tugging at it. And that's what all of a sudden opens up slot chances, is that you're by utilizing the full area of the zone, because the truth of the matter is, too, if you play 2D at the point and you play three forwards, you know, in the regular positions in the offensive zone,

when the puck goes to one corner, you are now effectively playing three versus five. So you're at a competitive numerical disadvantage. So you want to keep that thing moving. You don't want to let the puck stop because that becomes a defensive thing. You don't want to play three versus five. So now you're changing sides. So the idea of using the whole zone now. And then having positional interchange, it creates a lot of stress.

And then to your point, like, you'll see, you know, Colorado, whether it's McKinnon or Rantanin or whatever, you'll see them up in that high three on two where they go in between the 2D. Like, who's responsible for that? Who's responsible to be up there? And then they'll invert it. They'll come up there. And then the guy will go down and then he'll come back up.

Next thing, you know, you see, like, their net front D is now the guy that's up there. even if he gets the puck, like, what's that rush look like against? Like, that might be the best situation for you is to have that, like, in terms of disabling their rush. So the fact that you had so much motion, so much movement, so much of this attack in the use of the zone, and you stretched and tugged and pulled at the structure of the defensive group, you've now put them in awkward spots that even now if they do get the puck, They're not in an optimal place to really counter you. It's going to take time for them to organize.

And in that time, like in the NHL, like when the puck turns, you like three seconds. If you don't do it in three seconds, they are going to be recovered. So it's a fascinating piece to all that. Let's take a quick break from our conversation with Del Belfry to talk about the sponsor of today's PDO cast Hello Fresh. With Hello Fresh, you get fresh, pre-measured ingredients and mouth-watering seasonal recipes delivered right to your door. Hello Fresh lets you skip those trips to the grocery store and makes home cooking easy, fun, and affordable. Honestly, that convenience part is the biggest appeal for me. I simply don't have the time on most nights to be laboring over, making convoluted meals that require you to jump through all sorts of hoops.

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and they'll hook you up with a bunch of free meals and you're going to get started and you're going to enjoy it and it's going to make your life easier. So you have that to look forward to. And with that said, let's get back to today's PEDOcast. Every deep playoff run starts with building an amazing team. Doing the same for your business doesn't take a room full of scouts. You just need Indeed. Don't spend hours on multiple job sites looking for candidates with the right skills when you can do it all with Indeed.

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slash blue wire, all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash bluewire to start selling online today. Shopify dot com slash blue wire well you know it's kind of unrelated to that in the sense that it's a it's a isolated incident or it's an individual move but along those same lines of that defensive decision making you got me thinking i don't know if you saw um i hope you didn't i hope you weren't watching this ducks flyers game because only the truly sick individuals were watching but it really caught my eye was so trevor zegress has has successfully done that michigan move a couple times. He obviously did the pass over the net to Sonny Milano. He's tried it a couple times. He's planted the seat of doubt in people's minds, right? And I think that move in particular

is, is its own entity. But in this individual play that I'm referencing, Troy Terry's out in front of the net and Zegras goes kind of behind the net or he's skating out there. And you can see the defenseman who's manning the net front who's trying to box out Terry for a split second to realize, oh crap, Trevor Zegris is behind the net. I've watched. sports senator and seeing what he's about to do next and he doesn't necessarily move over to cover the far post but he certainly kind of like freezes like you can you can see that he stops worrying about what troy terry's doing and in the meantime troy terry basically gets into a blind spot and gets leverage on him puts his stick down zegris instead of going around the net basically just passes it back

and terry kind of just like tips it in and that was so fast and that that kind of uh that that that that that check game of all right I've seen what he can do on this play and then that freezes the defender and then all of a sudden it has these kind of trickle-down effects that aren't as fancy it's not going to be as big of a highlight real play but all of a sudden opens so much more of the ice for you from attacking perspective because you've already shown what you can do otherwise yeah and it's like to your point it highlights it because the zeggris play is you know he's done it now several times and it's it's like a threat and it's part of like a game structure that he has that he can now leverage in a multitude of different ways.

So initially what started off was like, you know, this Michigan play. And then he took it to a whole other level. He's doing it on the move. Yeah, like he's like he's definitely in half of a year. He like took it and blew it up into all kinds of different possibilities. What's the real possibility is that it's now the threat is that the threat of it is more dangerous is now more dangerous than because he can use that in other different ways, which is what I think is fascinating.

And to your point, he can now open up other things. And then other players can start reading off of the way that people are defending and it puts them in situations to go. Because if you think about it, what's the most common way of that you see defensemen trying to defend this Michigan? Like they're using their stick to kind of knock your skin. Well, now my stick.

is the height of the crossbar defensively. In concern about where this stick, that he's going to do this, you stick lifted yourself, and now you're not defending a passing lane that potentially can come out there. So like this is the kind of thing. And, you know, this is a good example

because it's, you know, you can clearly visualize it. But that type of thing goes on all the time where players have a certain thing that they do consistently, that leads them, to a certain level of success that creates concern for the defensive group, but the variety of uses of that skill is what's really the threat. So it's not necessarily that.

It's what they can also do inside of that and the different types of things that become available, the more they get into those things. You know, you see that over and over and over again. So even if you took a look at like vintage, Crosby. Right. Vintage Crosby grabs the puck. He's below the icing line.

He takes it, puts two people on his back, and he, you know, he's, he's going to do a cut back after the next. So what's the advantage? What's the advantage of that? Well, the advantage is that, one, he's occupying two people because you can't control him with one. Two, he has all this movement. Three, the longer it's going on, the more people are watching what's happening, which

means other people like a Gensel or whatever are now sliding into much more dangerous spaces because the time it takes. So the real threat now becomes it's Gensel is the real threat because he's the guy who can slide into now a more optimal position because Crosby has leveraged this one skill that he has that is that he can do basically any time. Once he gets the puck below the icing line, he can do it against anybody. he now it's not the one-on-one strength on the puck that's real threat where he just carries a guy and takes it to the net and scores himself that's not the real threat the real threat is he's occupying two people but not really two two people are actively defending them

three others are watching what's happening because of what's going on and they're worried that perhaps it's going to come over and there's going to be a switch and that they're going to have to get involved and then these other players, whether it's a D-Man sliding into space or whether it's Gensel sliding in space, he's leveraging that skill to be able to create opportunity for others. That's where the real offense gets so fascinating. Oh, I love that stuff. All right, is there anything else you want to? We're kind of at the 40-minute mark here.

I mean, is there anything else that you think? I was curious of, you know, any impressions that you might have had. Well, the speaker's been doing a really good job. Well, you know, it's fascinating because, like, I said this before, like, when I first talked about this idea that I had about, you know, bringing everyone down here and doing it this way, I was talking to my wife about it and she was like, you know, like, even Dave Chappelle has like, he's got like a warm up group that comes on, you know, and like they have people like, you know, you're going to go and they're going to come down there and just listen to one person. I'm like, well, yeah, but it's like it's done in a way where it's. If it's done, if it's truly player development, then it needs to be done in a certain sequence. And so I'm going to try it this way. So I've been curious to see, you know, the fatigue level of the group and whether or not.

But I think we've been able to hold their attention. But yeah, I just, I think it's been interesting to do it. It's such a different type of concept or way of being able to do this. I think she, wildly underestimated how nerdy some of us are. Yes, she definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, my biggest takeaway is just, and this, I guess, accomplishes what you're setting out to do, which was how all of this ties together.

So we were talking about that puck placement and also just how it affects your shooting, how it affects your skating in terms of facility, like making you more explosive because if you're kind of letting, putting the puck out to a position where you're going to occupy next, it allows you to already be in that kind of athletic stance to do so rather than, you know, being upright and centered and having us basically start the moment. motion all over again. And so you put all of that stuff together and that attention to detail is really interesting to me. And certainly when you watch the games, you see a lot of this stuff, but it's tougher to kind of put it all together. But once you break it all down individually, then you can kind of build it back up in a more easily observable manner, if that makes sense.

Yeah, like for the benefit maybe of the listener, we can back up just one step by saying like when I opened and started the whole process, the what I was, the, the, the, the, the, the, the core piece that is central to everything was the value of how to use the puck to facilitate skill development. And initially we talked about skating. And then today we did a lot of how you use the puck to facilitate shooting and the different types of routes and what that all looks like. So the benefit of how the puck is used is different because we don't, in skill development,

We don't really talk about it like that. Like, you're going to, well, I know myself, like, when I was talking about skating, I would say, like, the most important, if I wanted to influence skating, I would start from the head down. You know, I wanted to create chain reactions of movement, you know, turn your head, which turns your shoulders, your hips, etc. And you would go through the joint chain. And that really was my, that was my methodology, you know, or if I wanted to teach shooting, I would teach it from, the feet up. I want to make sure that the footwork is good. Once the footwork is good, then we can start moving up and et cetera. And now my whole perspective has changed because now the first thing is really where the puck is going because if I put the puck in bad spots, it's going to

reduce the quality of my ability to move. And what we now know, sorry, not we, what I now know and it's really influenced my teaching is that the puck can either help you or hurt you. And the more I watched a player in awkward situations, a lot of times it's self-induced. They put the puck in a spot that's reduced their ability to move, and the ability to move is what's really been restrictive. So being able to tie that in throughout, and we've done it, like, you know, tied it back to each of the skills that we've gone through has been really good, I think, for our group to watch here this week. Well, I guess maybe you brought this up, or you touched on it earlier. So apologies if you feel like that kind of answers this, but, you know, that idea of fixing versus

investing, right? Like, I know me, like, when I was growing up, I was playing basketball, not hockey. But I remember, I know you reach a certain point where you start getting stronger, and then you can shoot the ball in a proper way, the way you see NBA players, just in terms of the form, not obvious, the success they have. When you're younger and you're weaker, you're kind compensating for it by shooting improperly just to get the ball to the hoop and that becomes to feel natural for you because that's the way you've been doing it for years right so similar to that when you're working with especially guys who are at a higher level and they've been doing something a certain way or you know they've been shooting with their skates facing the goalie for years and

have had success i mean they obviously got to this level doing so and then you start working with them let's say in an off season and you're like all right i actually actually want you, I know it is counterintuitive, but I want you to position your skates to take this route so you're actually diagonally kind of facing the boards. It's going to require you separating that upper and lower body. You're going to require on your flexibility and your torso moving in that capacity. I'm sure once they start doing that, it feels kind of weird to them. Like they're like, all right, like even if they can acknowledge that, I mean, they're working with you for a reason. You've had your own success.

You probably know what you're talking about. For them, they're like, I don't know. This kind of feels weird. Do you need to see some sort of immediate success or results for them to fully buy into that? Or is it already kind of like they're coming to you for a reason? And so they're going to be willing to embrace it, even if it doesn't work for them right away. So the short answer to that is that if I've done the work, the proper work beforehand in being able to illustrate the need for this change and articulate, well articulate and illustrate the benefit of if. this was to be changed, this is what the desired effect would be, then now I don't necessarily

need the body to feel good. I need the effect to occur. If the desired effect occurs, they will go through the pain points of the awkwardness to continue to achieve the desired effect. And then what happens is that if I'm successful in being able to understand how the body is supposed to move through that, eventually they'll feel. They'll feel good because they'll feel the torque or the extra, the extra benefit that I want from the body to be positioned in that way. So it's awkward initially.

Yeah. They will tell you to go fly kite if they go, they, they, they, they, they, they're results driven. Yes. Right. So the effect of what you want has to show a net positive. then they go, it feels awkward, but I see what you're trying to do, and they can see themselves doing the net positive. Now they're willing to go through it.

And then what invariably happens is they get about three quarters of the way through what I would consider to be the build of this process. And then they uncover a unique expression that they do that makes it feel great for them. And then when they set up, on that, that's when I'm out. Then we start exploring that part. So, you know, it's kind of like I have a, you know, I have a vision for it.

It's usually based on something else that we've seen or other players that we've seen that have done it. And it's like, hey, this is an idea. This is where we'd like to go. Here's how the body's got to go. We get them into the process. They finally get through some of the awkward part. Then they uncover the way their body moves really well inside of that.

I like that. As soon as they say, I like that and you can see that that move, then you start working inside of that to create variability. Okay, try it this way, try it that way, try it this way, so that there's a real exploration of it and then keeping in mind the results. Because at the end of the day, they only care about, does this make me a better hockey player? If it doesn't, if I get through this net and it doesn't give me like a marketable chain,

like this is a waste of time. And so for me, I'm always banking on this is going to make a marketable change that is also, again, it's ripple effect, right? So I'm going to make this change, but it's going to have an impact in a variety of different areas. So what I have to do is get them to where the drop hits the water. Once the drop hits the water, I got to know where those ripples are going and be able to anticipate and say, hey, try it this way. maybe we add this to it. What about this situation? Start adding these different ideas.

And then it's in that context, through the ripple effect. That's when it takes hold from a personal level. And then they can really see the variability of its uses. Now we really got something. Well, that especially in terms of shooting, that kind of interplay between, I guess, short-term or present-day results and your willingness as a player to either,

tinker with the way you're playing or try new stuff because you feel like it's not working. It's so interesting to me because, you know, one of the easiest things to do as an analyst is look at a player shooting percentage. And if they're getting their chances and they're getting their shots, but they're converting at scoring on two out of every whatever goals and you're like, all right, like, it's pretty clear that this player is better than this. And if they just keep doing what they're doing, they're going to get better results. It's very easy for me to do that with no emotional attachment.

I'm not out there getting booed and having local. media writing about why I'm not scoring and why I'm not trying hard enough and all this stuff. And so I guess kind of just showing that player that, all right, actually, like, these are dangerous chances you're getting. Also, the technique you're using is good because the goalie actually looks like they're out of position. Maybe you just hit the post a couple times or it took a weird bounce or they made a lucky save. Keep doing this.

It'll go your way. I think sometimes almost sticking the course in that regard might actually be just as important as kind of having that aha moment where you identify a quick fix and then all of a sudden it gets better results. I would say that the majority of my job is to be the process conscience of the player. Yeah. Because they're so focused on results, of course, like you say, every day they're judged. Yes.

Every day. And so sometimes a player is going to come out of the game. They've had, you know, eight, ten, twelve shot attempts. and we'll go through each one of those shot attempts and be like, you know what? Process-wise, you had the goalie moving like on eight out of the 12. You made a couple maybe poor decisions as to, you know, where your shot location might have been, or you overshot the puck here, or you hesitated, or the defensive structure just influenced you in too much. But at the end of the day, when you look at your total process, you didn't score,

but the process itself was very good. Where if that continues, they go four or five games like that, and process is pretty good, but they're not achieving results. They get anxious, of course, right? And so they're starting to look like, okay, what do I need to change?

Something's not working. What do I need to change? And my job most often is to be the process police with them and their conscience and say, listen, stay the course, you'll be just fine. This is good. And, you know, we've had to do that several times of, like, you know, talking them off the ledge. Like, don't change anything.

You're going to be fine. Sometimes, though, it's the opposite. Right. You're, you know, you had an opportunity for 12 shot attempts. You only took six because you're, you know, your process is no good. You're working yourself out of good scoring areas. Or, you know, there was an opportunity for you to attack and you didn't. And so then the play closed down on you.

And so there's a lot of. of like little things like that where the process is is not right. So then it's like what part of that process is going to be the one thing that's going to start putting them on the road to recovery. And like, you know, we talked a little bit about this coming in today, but like the mental part of it, being able to trust yourself and to trust your process, but also having like a conscience of being able to see is so vitally important to today's athletes. So I feel like, you know, as much as in the off-season, we're trying to do all these different things.

Like in-season, you're trying to hold it together of different process because the stresses of it can be overwhelming for these athletes, especially you get down to this time of year. Nobody's healthy. Everybody's banged up in some way. Everybody, you know, and you're getting down and then the expectations towards the postseason keep growing and growing, etc. Well, they might not have four games for stuff to work. itself out. They might not. No, they might not. And so, so yeah, so then it's like sometimes what sometimes learning to not say anything is is helpful too. Just let them, let them work through it. So there's a lot to it. And, you know, this time of year, it's the most fun, of course,

because you're ramping up towards the playoffs. We're starting to see how everything's going. But from an individual player's perspective, you know, this is like the real test of like their process to this point and how committed are they to this process and how often over the course the year have they been veering in and out of it. That to me is a really fascinating part to get them to feel optimal as they're hitting the hard part. These are competing for a playoff spot or trying to contribute to team wins, trying to elevate their game at a time in which it's needed to elevate. This type of stuff is really fascinating. But whole, Holding them to process rather than results is so difficult because sometimes those two things

are not, like they don't necessarily go hand in hand. They're supposed to. Great process is supposed to lead to great results, which over time, yes, it does. But sometimes you go through a situation where you go five or six games, your process could be dialed in and you just, it's just not going in. And the tendency is to everyone, especially when the stress is high, is to be like, like well probably should change something here i don't know what but we need to change something like that's that's the that's a really fascinating part and i have to come in armed with video to say no

no look at this one two three this is good process and i'll often say you know it's almost like that old adage well that's a goal in any league yeah it's kind of like some like that where you just say like listen you shoot that puck that exact same shot this this type of sequence like that's a goal like six, seven, ten times out of ten, it just will happen that you got the one. Don't worry, though. You got that one out of the way, so your odds are now better. Right. All right, Darrell, this is a blast, man.

I'm glad we got to do this. Always fun chatting with you. Hopefully people that listened or enjoyed our chat as well. I'm sure we'll do many more podcasts and get into all this nerdy stuff all and over again. Do you have anything to plug? You want to get the listeners? No, I'm good. I know.

I'm excited to get back. We have a couple more here, present. one more ice session here before we wrap it up. So I'm appreciative that you came down into my world here. Oh, this was a blast. I'm looking forward. As much as I've enjoyed this, I'm also looking forward to stepping outside

and enjoying the sun a little bit as well afterwards. So this is a blast, man. Thanks for it. Thanks for coming on. Awesome. All right. That is going to be it for today's episode of the Hockey P-D-O-cast. Hope you enjoyed that one.

It is always so fun to talk to Daryl. He's got a endless supply of wisdom and knowledge and creative ways to think about improving the games. So hopefully we, you know, we tapped into a little bit of that here. There's still so much meat left on the bone and we're going to have plenty of opportunities to get to the rest of it more and forward. So have that to look forward to. If you did enjoy the show, you can certainly help us out by leaving a quick little rating and review wherever you typically listen to your shows. A lot of you have taken up my consistent request at the other of these shows to please go do so.

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something new so if you're listening to this right now and uh it is currently Thursday uh April 21st I believe for the rest of this week we've got a promotion going on where everything on a site is unlocked and free to read for everyone. So if you've been kind of eyeing it and interested, but not sure if you want to commit, I get it. There's so many things to subscribe to these days. Go check it out. See if you like it. You know, you can just click on my other page and read all the stuff that I've been putting out over the vast little bit here. And if you like what you see and you want to sign up beyond that, I'm certainly happy to help get you sorted out with a good promo code. So feel free to give me a buzz and we'll see if we can make that happen.

As for this show, we will be back soon. Playoffs are only about 10 days away or so. So we're going to have plenty of fun content on this feed coming up. Really looking forward to all those breakdowns and all the series previews and whatnot. So until then, thanks for listening. And here is the outro music. The Hockey P.DEOCast with Dmitri Filippovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Filippovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.com slash hockeypedocast.