The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 443: Boy, That Escalated Quickly

Episode Date: June 19, 2022

Shayna Goldman joins the show to discuss the first two games of the Stanley Cup Final, how the Avalanche have been able to dominate, and what adjustments the Lightning can make with the series now moving to Tampa Bay. Topics discussed include: Why the Avalanche forecheck is giving the Lightning trouble The level of dominance we saw in Game 2 How good Val Nichushkin and Colorado's top line have been The unenviable task of slowing the Avalanche down right now Lessons to learn from Colorado's success Where things have gone especially wrong for the Lightning What Tampa Bay can try to do differently in Games 3 and 4 If you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help, each one is much appreciated! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

On a beautiful run through the park, on a pleasant day, you can easily get lost. No, no, no. She didn't kill him. Huh? In your true crime podcast. It was the pool guy. So obvious. Whatever motivates you works for us. It's all about letting your run be your run. And Brooks is here for every runner.

Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dmitri Phil. Welcome to the Hockey-Ocast. My name is Dimitri Fulpovich. And join Amy's my good buddy, Shana Goldman. Shana. What's going on? I'm good. I'm here. I'm excited to talk about a 7-0 route. Yes. Yeah. It's, you know what? We've been planning this before game two happens. So we're like, you know what?

We're going to record this Sunday late morning, early afternoon. We're going to have two games worth of content to discuss. It'll probably be, especially after game one, it seemed like you're like, oh, it's a very evenly matched series. There's a lot of give and take here. And then game two kind of blew that out. But I still think we're going to be able to get a good show out of this. So the plan is we're going to work our way through what we've seen in the first two games

in the series. And then we're going to look ahead a bit to what comes next as the location of the game shifts to Tampa for three and four. So hopefully people get a chance to listen to this before Monday evening's puck drop. We'll keep it at a tight 30 to 40 minutes here, try to cover everything we need to. And hopefully that does the job to satisfy everyone's fix for hockey between now and that. So let's get going.

Shana, what's the first thing that jumps out to you from watching these two games, whether it's something Colorado did well, whether it's something Tampa Bay struggled with that really kind of is at the forefront of your mind when you think about these two games. It's Val Nchuskin season. That's it. Yeah. That's that no, it's the Colorado Nachushkins. No, it's everything we expect Colorado to be their being. And I think, I have to think that getting past round to kind of like open this door for them to play to their strengths. It felt like against Edmonton, we saw the avalanche. We expect them to be throughout that game, like throughout that series, excuse me. And now coming into it, it's like,

well, this is their greatest test yet. And they're going against someone who's very good. defensively and very adaptable and all of that is still true. But in the first two games, we're seeing Colorado play the game that we anticipate them to play. You know, they kept the pressure up in game one when they slipped a little bit, you know, when they took a lead. We saw them pick it back up when they needed to. And, you know, yesterday was the prime example of just keeping the pressure up for the entire game. So it's like they are that powerhouse that we expected them to be. Yeah. So what, okay, they're 14 and 2 now for those keeping a score at home for the postseason. and they have outscored teams 76 to 43, so plus 33 goal differential.

By my count, there was only really one game where I thought they really got outplayed. It was that game two against St. Louis where it really felt like it was like the first time we saw someone slow them down in any meaningful way and like kind of just muck it up in the neutral zone, actually get a four check going and sort of make them play a game that Colorado probably didn't want to play. Whereas even, you know, games three. and four against Edmont Denhampton certainly did a much better job of kind of hanging around and trading punches with them. But I never really felt like they were in jeopardy there. I know

they were down whatever heading into the third period of game four. But with this Avs team, it feels like they can score in bunches so quickly that as long as like the game isn't getting out of hand from a stylistic perspective, I feel pretty good that they're going to find a way to score more than you. And so far through these two games, like these games have been played pretty much on Colorado's terms, right? Like it's, I imagine the pace of this is, is very uncomfortable to Tampa Bay. You can visibly see it at times where they're like just hanging on for dear life and try to grab a breather wherever they can.

Like how many times is the camera panning over to Victor Hedman on the bench and he looks like he's like 120 years old and he's like, he's got this big beard and he's just like huffing and puffing and yeah. So they're really kind of just dragging them into the deep, deep end here with them. And Tampa Bay just has had no real answer really. Yeah. And I think, you know, the one challenge is dealing with Colorado speed.

The other challenge of it is you haven't been as rested as them, even though they had one sweep. And then the third challenge now is the altitude. Colorado knows how to play at these heights and play at this speed at those heights. Tampa Bay plays there once a year. It's not like they had that much time to train before. We see in the NFL schedule, teams will go out to Denver for an entire week to practice out there to get, you know, acclimated to it. And Tampa Bay had one day, maybe two days. So, and one of the days was media days.

It's not like the entire day was spent doing. different like training and things like that. And do you even want to do it after this long grind of a playoff series? But yeah, like Tampa, I think a credit to them is that they're very adaptable. They can play the game in every which way. But this level of speed is different from what they've seen. You know, Toronto is a speedy team that can put up a lot of shots. Florida, in theory is, and that's not the Florida Tampa got in part.

Yeah, like Florida didn't play to their strengths. And then Tampa Bay didn't let them. a mix of things, obviously, Tampa's play like is a prime reason why Florida is out. And then the Rangers have that speed and skill element, but they're not this overwhelming five-on-five team. It's completely different. So as much as we're looking at it going, well, you can't count Tampa Bay out after two games and you can't. We see them get better in series. On the other hand, it's like, we haven't seen Tampa have to be in this position against the team like Colorado. And they need to find an answer for that overwhelming speed in all three zones. Yeah.

I think sequencing here is interesting, though, because I went into this series, like, whenever anyone asked me, okay, how do you think this is going to play out? What are you going to happen? I thought game one was going to be exactly what we saw in game two, where I thought, like, Colorado would just absolutely blitz them, overwhelm them with speed and win seven nothing or whatever, right? And then I thought game two, we'd see Tampa Bay kind of play a tighter game and start to figure it out a little bit. And then as the series shifted to Tampa Bay, it'll become much more even. And I think if we had seen that, maybe our vibe or our tenor here about how we feel about this series might be different because it would have been the most recent thing we've seen. But it's kind of tough not to watch what we just saw in game too, acknowledging that it is just one game.

We've seen Tampa Bay be down to nothing in a series. We've seen them be against the ropes, against the leaves in round one as well and bounce back and show that championship medal and all that. But this kind of does look different, right? They were overwhelmed by New York speed in the first two games where the Rangers were creating off the rush and getting that cross-ice action going for one-timers. And that looked kind of jarring because we didn't expect to see that from Tampa Bay. But it feels like this is a different form of like even if Tampa Bay plays better, Colorado can beat you in so many different ways that it's going to be an entirely different challenge bouncing back from this. I don't think we can equate what they did in the previous rounds to what they're going to have to do to climb out of this hole. I fully agree.

And I think, like you said, if the games were in opposite positions, like Vasilevsky allowed a bunch of goals, they hung them out to dry, things like that. You move on to game two, tough start. And then we saw a totally different second half of game one than we saw in that first period because Vaselowski was Vaselowski. And he challenged them a lot more than he did in that first period. So it did feel like, okay, going into game two, he's trending in the right direction with Tampa Bay needs if they can't get their legs under them quick enough.

And that didn't happen. And like, I don't fault him entirely. for, you know, the game two loss. He was hung out to dry. I think Adman Russians at even strength were six nothing in Colorado's favor. Like there's only so much you can do if you're the goaltender, if your team isn't playing well defensively. But like it did feel like maybe that had the games been reversed,

it would have made a lot more sense. And we'd have a lot more faith in Tampa moving forward. But like you said, this Colorado team is so good. They're so good at every position. And even if we go, okay, they might be losing on. Jay Berkowski were like, oh, wait, but they might get an awesome cadre back. Oh, they have depth. Oh, they have defense.

And they get by with average goaltending. And they've gotten by throughout the postseason with below average goaltending and a number of games too. Yeah. Well, yeah. So I think there's only, I think the entire story of these first two games for me can be traced back to Colorado's forecheck. I feel like so much of the success they've had and then the struggles that they've imposed

on Tampa Bay can just be traced directly back to that in terms of just what the abs forecheck has done to really torment the lightning pretty much every time they go back into their zone to retrieve the puck. And, you know, the irony of it isn't lost on me because for my series preview, I spent a significant portion of that show talking about how the lightning forecheck needed to slow down the avalanche breakout and kind of focusing on that end of the ice. And then these two games have just entirely flipped the script and it's basically been the opposite of that. But let me hit you with some stats here because I track the first two games as I have been doing all postseason to kind of capture how tilted the ice has been.

So, Aves defensemen have attempted 71 515 zone exits. They've gotten out with possession 51 times. So that's over 70% of the time. They've been hemmed in with a turnover just seven times total. So basically, if you think about those numbers, that's like what Kail Makar himself has been doing all postseason. And that's how every single Aves defenseman cumulatively has played in these two games. Even Jack Johnson has five possession exits.

I was going to say, everyone's talking so highly about Jack Johnson. like the Jack Johnson Redemption tour all of a sudden. Did you see that one retrieval he had in game two where he like went back? His back was, uh, facing the, the lightning forechecker and he kind of did like a little shimmy where he fake, like he was going to go left and then he got it and went right instead. And I was like,

he's like literally playing like Gil McCar out there. It's outrageous. And, and, and I know. It's, it's wild. It's like everyone you put into this system just gets a jet pack attached them basically.

Bowen Byram, 12 exit attempt, 11 with possession, just continuing his, uh, his freakishly great post season. so far. But the reason I bring up those stats is because I wanted to help contextualize what the lightning defense might have done in my comparison. So they've had 82 exit attempts. 25 of them

have been with possession. So that's 30% of the time. They've had 23 failed exits. So that's turnover as they keep them hemmed in their own zone and making them continue to defend, including seven by Victor Hedman, who's kind of been like the biggest culprit so far in terms of just looking like he's visibly struggling with the speed of the avalanche. And there's just no way around those numbers really, right? Like it's not, if you, even though the lightning aren't necessarily a rush team, like they need to be playing downhill in the sense that when they have like the Kucharal line out there, they need to be playing with the puck, especially like through the neutral zone and trying to establish offensive zone possession. And basically every time they try to get out, it seems like even if they do somehow get out of their own zone, the abs have it in the neutral zone and they're just bringing it right back in. And so it honestly feels like the ice for a significant portion of this series has just been kind of tilted downwards towards Tampa Bay's defensive zone. And it's, yeah, it's been jarring to watch. Like I've been putting together some of these, some of these clips of the Abelanch Forecheck on Twitter.

And it's, you're getting like a full two game, the two minute, uh, mixtape of, of a four checking masterclass from like one game against a good team. Like it's not like the Abiland, the Lightning have like six Jibonies out there who are playing on the blue line trying to get like, you know, fumbling the puck around. Like they have good defensemen and they just look like beer leaguers right now. Yeah, it's so wild. Like if the lightning weren't managing to get out of their zone clean, but they were stopping Colorado from doing it.

So nobody was doing this. That can work to an extent. I think they live with that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Against the Rangers, you know, by game five, which was interesting because they were on the road and they still managed to do, which I think made it all the more impressive,

was that they were really disrupting the Rangers attempts to enter the zone and, you know, going with possession, they were making them play a dump-and-chaise game and they were beating them to pucks. And it was like, okay, that might challenge Colorado. As skilled as Colorado is, and they are much better team than Rangers,

top to bottom. like that might pose a problem. And here it is, Tampa has their own problems. They can't stop Colorado. Like it's going downhill in every which way. And Victor Hedman had a terrible game one. It's so rare we say that, especially in the playoffs. I mean, you look at last season and it wasn't his best regular season.

And by the time I hit the playoffs, it was like, no big deal. I'm fine. I'm Victor Hedman. I'm going to go thrive. And that did not happen in game one at all. And so it hurts if he's not playing to his strengths, but it absolutely crushes you. if now he's part of the problem, which he absolutely was. And like, you know, on the surface, like we did,

me and Dom did the preview for the athletic and we were comparing like the defense head to head. Normally we do it like we were splitting up teams. And this one we were like, no, let's go through these exact matchups and analyze them. So you get both sides of it from one person's voice. So it would be things like Chernak and McDonough against Manson and Johnson, who were not good in the last round together. You know, the avalanche will have more shots, quality chances. And you're like, well, that's not encouraging.

you can see how someone like Sam Gerard clicked so well with Manson, you know, was the offensive cog he needed alongside him. So his defense shined. Jack Johnson's not that. And all of a sudden, Jack Johnson's playing well, you know, and Byram has been an absolute star. Love watching him. I think that he's such a difference maker for them because they have this defensive depth that maybe they didn't anticipate. You would think Gerard went down there in trouble. And it's like, no, no, he's got this. It's, you know, and it doesn't matter that it's, you know, he has little postseason experience, he's still thriving. And then guys like Sergegev and McDonough and Trinac,

who you think that Tampa Bay can rely on alongside Headman aren't playing to their strengths. And it just, it's, there's problems like top to bottom for, for Tampa. And I guess maybe people underestimated how Colorado would for check because they play that speed skill game and people expected more of a track meet. And that's not the case. Well, I honestly wouldn't say, like I,

I rewatched the game this morning. I wouldn't say that the avalanche for check is, is doing anything necessarily like overly sophisticated or groundbreaking. I'm no forechecking specialist by any means, but just to my eye, like it seems like a pretty conventional like their F1, the first guy in his own is just, and he's usually Natchushkin, which is great for their purposes, is just like bull rushing, whoever goes back to play the puck for the lightning. And then that player is like just hounding them, right?

Like they're like just relentlessly on them. They're basically forcing them to either make like a low percentage play or turn it over directly or basically not be able to have like a quick outlet, right? And then the others for the avalanche by the time that happens and that F1 slows it down are just like like their defensemen are pitching so aggressively along the walls and basically shutting everything off in terms of that. And so the lightning really have only one exit plan, which is like throwing the puck up the middle of the ice.

And we've seen that result directly in a bunch of turnovers and great chances for for the avalanche, regardless of like it could be their first line with Natchushkin and And it's got or it could be their fourth line and they could have like O'Connor and Helm and Cogliano or whoever out there and they're just creating chances off of these sequences where the lightning are fumbling the puck around. And so it's, I'm not sure what the answer is to compensate for that. Like later on in the show, when we wrap up, we're going to kind of talk about like adjustments in lightning can make and kind of how they can turn this around. But the biggest issue I see for them is whereas the avalanche have a car, they have Byram. They have even Taves who can absorb that pressure and kind of,

use their skating ability to beat that first fork checker and either create space or get it out of the zone. The lightning don't really have that, right? Like, like, none of their defensemen are necessarily so fleet of foot or so agile that they're able to absorb that and then make a play with it skating. Like, they need to pass the puck out and the avalanche are just giving them no time to do so. And so I think that's kind of the root of the problem. And I'm not sure from a personnel perspective how you kind of adjust for that. I have no idea because I would think that if Tampa wants to play to their strengths, it's going to be players like McDunna and Maybe McDonough and Sergeathev using their sticks to, you know, knock their opponent off the puck and turnack and McDonough taking the body as much as possible and slow it down by adding more physical play to it and force Colorado to grind it out of it.

Kind of like how we saw Vegas, you know, take it to Colorado last year. Like I think that's the way that Tampa has to model their game. But it does seem like Colorado's figured out ways to get through that. Like if you want to up the pressure on them, it's, they're like playing so much freer, I just think since they got past St. Louis. and that's like allowing them to just keep to keep skating around everybody, you know, at times when you watch them, it's like they're moving so quick and they're moving the puck around so quickly. Like, is this the way that you can win a game? Like, or is it just that you're sprinting around the ice and you look so busy?

And it's like, no, no, no, they legitimately are like that talented that they can move at these high speeds and make these plays happen. And if you can't find a way to shut it down, you might go for a hit and now you're out of position or you might be under pressure and make a turnover. And it's all these things we don't expect the lightning to do. not like they it's not like they can't do it they didn't have a perfect regular season but you know like we know the lightning in the postseason we we expect great things from them and rightfully so and the fact that you know they didn't allow not only they didn't allow Tampa to even the series last night they got their asses kicked it's like oh okay this is how this is going yeah yeah this is just such a it just looks so different visibly i find like just what the avalanche are doing like how

they're just like pursuing the puck just so relentlessly. Like it's, it's wild to me. It's like everyone. It's contributions from really everyone. Like Andrew Cogliano misses game one. He was out for a while with a hand injury. He ever jumps back into the lineup.

He's out there flying around making plays at whatever age. He's at right now. Like it's just remarkable. It seems like truly anyone you put into the system is just completely going off. And so yeah, I'm not. I don't know. I think the lightning certainly have some adjustments to make, but it really seems like,

And rightfully so, Colorado is like feeling themselves so much right now. Like they're so confident, as you said, after getting over that hurdle, that they don't even feel the need to kind of like respect Tampa Bay speed. Yeah. Like they're like, like they're like not even acknowledging the possibility of getting beaten. Like and, you know, sometimes they will because of puck bounces like that, that Kuturov assist to Palat in game one where they kind of created that two on two and then he made a beautiful play around Taves and Makar was kind of puck watching.

That happened after like a weird scrambly play where Colorado got caught deep in the offensive zone. So that's going to happen. And I think moving forward, the lightning are going to need more of that, just kind of like good puck balances to create chances for them. But the avalanche are like so confident right now that they feel like that's a risk they're willing to take because like Josh Manson, Eric Johnson, like they're like just so deep in the zone. I think there was a play where like Kel McCarron game two was like four checking. And he was like literally the deep guy behind the lightning net trying to create a forecheck for them.

And it's like they don't care. Like it's really just five guys kind of alternating in whoever's in whatever position they just go for it. And that's something that us nerds, we love the positionless hockey, rovers. Like, Cal McCar, if a coach allows him to can say, go thrive. And, you know, it seems like he has the trust and rightfully so to play that way. But no, it's incredible. Players like Darren Helmer goal scores again, who knew in the year 2020, we'd be talking about goals scored.

Sniping shots off the rush. Like in this economy, okay, it's incredible. Like they have this system that they've put together, the way that they've built up their core and then the way that they've only supplemented at the deadline. You know, Josh Manson, great ad for them. You know, we could all say at the time, it was a good deal. It had this potential. It's living up to it, obviously. And then they get the added bonus of him scoring goals each round, which, who saw that coming? And Arturi Lackinen, who is one of my favorites, such a good disruptor to add. And I love that because I like how they construct

their lines. We talk a lot about, you know, line balancing. Should you load up? Should you be too top heavy. And that's been a problem in Colorado before when they had McKinnon, Ransan, and Landiscagall all playing together. But a player like Balanchuskin, I like so much because he's so skilled and he can facilitate plays. And even before he had this finishing touch was just such a good complimentary player that, you know, they had that line last year. It was him and Don Skoy and I think Comfer at one point. And they own like 70% of the expected goal share or something stupid because they never allowed shots against. They generated a ton for. They didn't have the results to show for it and you have three players who are towards the top of the team and takeaways like it all made

sense but if you space that out there at your lineup and you get a player for nick mckinin who's going to constantly retrieve pucks and also has the puck skills too you know besides the goal scoring that he has this year like it just adds this nice touch of lineup balance that i wonder how many teams look at that and go this is what we need to take away maybe you know some wanted like a tom wilson like on their top line when after the caps won the cup because it's like you can go for that lesser skilled player and have someone so physical and maybe you can think they protect them in a sense or you know things like that but i feel like nutruchkin has that perfect balance of skill and everything else that all-encompassing game that it's intriguing because you could put lekin in on your

second line and they did for a while and it works because you still have that lineup balance and i'm just curious if that's something teams take away from it yeah oh there's a lot to take from this abs team and hopefully it'll be the right stuff and not yeah i mean i i guess it is always you know, the art really is in the ad beholder. I feel like if you, if you're committed enough to a certain agenda, you can always spin it in whatever angle you want. But I mean, it's okay. So that game two, the game we most recently watched,

like I think that was about as thorough of a destruction as you're going to see, especially like this late in the postseason on this setting and the Stanley Cup final stage against this quality of opponent, which is a team looking to three beat. And I think you mentioned earlier that you had, or the the odd man rush chances at even strength of the redover six nothing for the abs. I had five on five rush shots at 15 to two for the abs last night. Yeah.

And two, those two for the lightning were a bit generous because one was kind of like a Nick Paul one where he was coming from a relatively tough angle. And the other one was a Braden point attempted that didn't even make it on net because Bowen Byron kind of just harmlessly knocked their way. But they just weren't like we can talk a lot about what the abs did. offensively and how they scored seven goals and all the talent we saw on display. But like defensively, it was about as dominant a performance as you're going to see because they just didn't allow anything all night in 45, five on five minutes.

Natural Static had the lightning down for six shots on goal, one high danger chance, and 0.35 expected goals as a team. And that even might be generous because it feels like Kemper wasn't tested all night. So like they just, regardless of how many goals the Aves scored, it felt like they're, defensively, they were so swarming and they were giving them so little space and they had the puck on their stick for such a long period of time. The lightning, I think that's almost as big of a concern moving forward in this series. It's like, how do we sustainably find ways to create offense? I know they scored three goals in game one, but it really feels like it's going to be

a struggle for them to score any goals. No, absolutely. And like during the last series, we saw, like Tampa had the advantage in shot attempts, but when it was quality chances, like the Rangers still had the edge in the first two games. And, you know, they were generating more cycle chances and more shots off the rush, which was like a little bit unexpected for the Rangers, which, you know, that had been a season-wide problem for them. And then in round one, it was a disaster. So it built on round two and were able to push back against Tampa in those first two games. And then the script completely flipped. And, you know, Tampa Bay had more rush chances and they had the results to show for it. They had more cycle chances and they had the

results to show for them. And if you're going to get past one of the best goalies in the world, which they were facing at the time in Chesterkin, you're going to have to test them a lot. Like you could look at it and say maybe they could lull him to sleep and the couple chances they get will trickle through. But like in reality, we know the more sustainable way to try to beat him is to just pepper him with shots and hope something goes in. For Vaselowski, the same is true. If you're going to try to beat him, you need to just overpower him. And, you know, I have it as 23 slot shots at even strength to six. That seems like you're challenging one goaltender and you're not the other.

And, you know, maybe Colorado recognized that, I'm sorry, that Kemp, was not his best since he returned from the eye injury. He had one quality start against St. Louis. He wasn't great in Edmonton before he left the game. And, you know, he wasn't even perfect in game one of this series. He was challenged less too. And maybe it's a concerted effort to protect him or which wife, rightfully so. But they're playing defense too in a way.

It's not like they're just accumulating block shots. They're playing like this new age defense of getting the puck back, retrieving the puck and just pushing play back down the ice. and they're not taking their foot off the gas when they're in the lead, which they did against St. Louis, and obviously it burned them in Game 5. Against Edmonton, we saw they didn't do that as much. And even though they had leads in games, they were still, you know, just pressuring their opponent as much as possible.

And in game one, we saw Colorado kind of sit back a little bit and temp if I step up. So I think that had to be something in the back of their minds too. Like we can't let a lead slip away from us. We get a lead. We just have to keep playing to our strengths. And they did. So it's so impressive. they challenged Vastsevsky the entire game in every situation, in every which way that they could.

It wasn't some one-dimensional strategy. They were only getting rush chances. They were doing it in every which way. And they just didn't allow anything back for Tampa. Like, it's just incredible how dominant they were. Yeah, they're really, the way they're playing right now really is like all gas, no breaks personified, right? Like I can't remember a team that's better at piling it on and making things go from bad to worse for you as the opponent than they are.

Like that ability of theirs to just like they have one strong ship and then all of a sudden it becomes a string of them in a row. And it must just be such a helpless feeling for your for the opponent playing against that because you can almost kind of see them like realize like, oh shit, like we're we're screwed right now. And this is going to be bad and usually results in a goal against or a penalty or a bunch of chances. And so yeah, I mean, I think that is like there's certainly imperfect. Listen, like they've blown some leads this postseason. We've seen them have hiccups along the way. But when that topic we're kind of tangentially talking about earlier of like what you can learn from this team or what you can adapt if you're incorporating it into from their success to try to replicate that yourself, that kind of ability to just keep playing your game and aggressively always keep pushing and trying to go for it. Even if you're up, even if your fourth line is on the ice.

Like that's something that I'd love to see. And that's what I find admirable to see more so than like the top end talent is remarkable. obviously, and that helps facilitate a lot of this. But I do feel like the mentality they play with, the system that they have also allows them to kind of tap into that and really maximize everyone. And so it must be fun for them to play in. And it must be just so brutal to play against. So I'd love to see more of that in the league.

Yeah. And I think it'll be so interesting if they maintain this. Let's say this, even if it goes six games, if we see Colorado maintain this level of play throughout it, not, oh, well, if you run in circle so much, you're going to to burn yourself out by the end of the series because that's something I feel like we would hear from more traditional perspective being like that's not the heavy hockey of the postseason or you can't win playing that kind of style. That's what we heard the last couple of years about Colorado. And it's what we heard about Tampa the year that they completely ate shit to Columbus.

Like can you be such a skilled team top to bottom and win and not try to change your game in the playoffs, which we saw burn Florida this year, prime example of that. So if they can keep playing this, and I understand they didn't have as long of a path, they would. went four games. It wasn't seven, seven, seven, playing 21 games to get here, even 18 games to get here. They had a much easier path, and it was four, four, and six, it was 14, right? Yeah. And to still play like this, it's obviously different than if there were another seven games on top of that. But if they can just keep up this style throughout, I think that's going to be really interesting. And that should push more people in the right direction and should say, this is the way you want to play. This is the

playing style you should want. This is the roster construction. This is the build your core. Develop them. Not just get the draft picks. Develop them. Be patient with them. Supplement with supporting talent along the way. Don't go crazy with that. Just support along the way. It's like it's the build that I think so many of us want to see succeed. And right now, you know, we could say it's only two games in and we know Tampa puts up the script, you know, being down to two nothing in a series. It's just so impressive to me to see that it's working so well. like this, how can you not be taking this away from watching them? Yeah, I know, I completely agree with that.

I mean, I don't think we need to, I don't think we need to preface everything with it's just two games we've seen Tampa Bay of contact before. I know we have a bunch of times already in this show. And I hope everyone listening is like aware of that and isn't just like, you know, this isn't necessarily like a coronation by any means. But like we're just reacting upon the first two games we've seen and especially the most recent one, like I don't, I don't know how you can take anything away from that but that. And while it has been such a team effort for Colorado, I did want to quickly give a shout

out to that top line of theirs. I know you talked to on a Chushkin a little bit already. You know, McKinnon hasn't scored yet. I think he's been, like we've gotten the full Nathan McKinan experience in these two games. Like he's just been, he's been like stomping around the ice and just using his powerful strides to put Tampa Bay's defenders in such a tough spot. So even if he hasn't necessarily been scoring, it's like, it's just been such a nightmare to deal with for them, I imagine, where it's demoralizing in a way. And there's a shift that I really kind of highlighted in the second period of last night's game where the puck after a long, long shift for the abs, bounces into the neutral zone. And I think a lot of teams would

have either just kind of passed it back into their own zone and sort of allowed, facilitated to change or kind of slow down a little bit. But McKinnon grabs it and he just like brings it right back in, full speed, storms in, goes right at Eric Chernak, dishes it all. the Nchuschen, who was in alone against Vasselovsky. He wound up getting robbed of a hat truck on that play. But it was the exact type of sequence. So what we're talking about, that mentality of constantly attacking, but also what McKinnon's been bringing to the table. And so there hasn't many goals yet, but he's been creating so many opportunities. He's got 19 shot attempts. He's set up nine, five on five shots for his teammates so far. Both are series highs. In game two, he played 1632, all situations minutes. The Lightning had two shot attempts as a team in that time.

And so I think like he's very close to kind of breaking this thing open even more so. A couple of bounces here or there. But I did want to give him some love as well because I think he's been playing really well. And that top line has been kind of full marks, everything you'd want to see out of your top unit. Yeah, the top line's been incredible. And in game one, they did get that Sorrelli matchup a bit. And it seemed like, you know, against St. Louis, we talked a lot about the Ryan O'Reilly matchup against Nathan McKinn. And there were points where the avalanche were just like, whatever,

we're just going to keep playing to our strengths and put them out against them. and it felt like that was the case in game one. And the Hagle, Coulorne and Sorrelli line had a horrible night in those minutes. Game two, they did get McKinnon away from that. I think his primary matchups were the Pilot line instead last night. But we talk so much about Sirelli, his Selky caliber defense. And it's like, don't forget there's a, you know, a Selky caliber defense in Nitchkin on that line.

You have Gabe Linescock, who is such a good player. He came in to the playoffs and maybe we expect a little bit more rust from him. And he's been great. And matching him back up with McKinnon and. putting this line together for round three was great. And it's even more dangerous because Ranson and who didn't start the playoffs that well in the first two rounds is now thriving on that second line. So you have that one-two punch. How do you try to shut them down? Who do you focus your matchups on? Like do you say we can't contain McKinnon? We'll let that line run amok and try to

shut down everybody else in their lineup. Like it's such a tough decision to make. Yeah. Natushkin's been, I mean, he's been the star of these two games, I guess. And it was just remarkable because there's so many superstars on both sides. And he's been the one that stood out. He's got three goals, one primary assists, 11 shots on goal. Shot attempts are 38 to 13 with him on the ice of 5-on-5. And it's funny, whenever I tweet about him the past couple of games, it's like fans of other teams tagging their team's official Twitter account in it, which is, I mean, I love the idea that, you know, the administrator of those accounts has anything to do with personal decisions, obviously not, but it is funny. It's like, I assume his play in a weird way, it's earned him more dollars on whatever contract he signs this offseason. But it's also kind of like if there's any possibility of the avalanche making the money work, they almost have to because he's been such a remarkable fit stylistically and sort of his profile in terms of the size speed combo and how he's allowed them to get rant in and off that top line and give them a similar winger on McKinnon's unit. And so,

he's almost priced himself out of Colorado, but he's also like made himself so invaluable that they're going to now prioritize and maybe even above some of their other unrestricted free agents. So like it's a topic for another day. We're going to have a lot of time to discuss it this off season. But his play has made him of a very, very hot commodity this summer. Yeah, rightfully so. And it's so interesting to see what they're going to do. Like do you want Leknin to step up in his place?

Then you try to find the next version to go somewhere in the middle six instead if you can't afford him or do you just open the bank or maybe hope that he's, he would take less to stay with this team. Like, it's really interesting because like Colorado was the team that gave him a chance after Dallas bought him out because he wasn't as great of a player as they expected him to be because of where he was, you know, in the draft, even though he was still a good defensive forward. You still need those types of players on your team, even if they aren't those elite top pointers you expect them to be.

And you look at the change for him and how well he clicks in the system. Like I'm so curious what happens with him because he really is a fantastic player and he's had a great year and he just keeps, you know, upping his life. level as this postseason goes on. All right, let's take a quick break here, here from a sponsor, and then we're going to finish up the conversation with a bit of a look ahead to the next couple games. Every deep playoff run starts with building an amazing team. Doing the same for your business doesn't take a room full of scouts.

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But from a lightning perspective, you know, you're going home, game three at home. We've seen them as we talked about bounce back in similar situations against the Leafs and the Rangers. What are you looking for from them in these next two games just in terms of like legitimate things that they could potentially do differently, whether it's lineup stuff or the way they're playing to give themselves a fighting chance beyond just hope. the Vasilevsky bails them out and like fundamentally, at least getting something going at 5-on-5 so that this is a real, real challenge for Colorado. I'm really curious how they handled the match-up game

because we're going to hear a ton about Anthony Sorrelli and rightfully so. Like, where does he go? And where do you put McDonough and Chernak out? You know, do you try to have that as your five-man unit against the McKinnon line and try to contain them? Do you focus on the Rantanin' matchup instead if it's Coddry and Rantanin and say that's the line that's going to get this Ralelli match up and figure it out from there. You know, like, it's so intriguing to me because we know that Tampa can adapt.

We know that they can tweak their game and do things to clog the middle a little bit better, which they obviously need to do. They were allowing far too many cross-ice passes. And it's similar to last series again. But as similar as it is to last series, it's so different because the avalanche are completely different from any other team they face in the playoffs. They're just that strong. So I'm very curious.

If I'm Tampa, I wonder if maybe I don't. don't try to go Cherenac McDone against McKinnon. And I think let me keep headman on that line because at least he can skate to keep up with them a little bit better and not put himself out of position if he's going for a hit. And I can't see him having three bad games in a row in the playoffs. Like I just I just don't see it happening. He's too good for that. That I wonder if back on home ice maybe they can put him in a better position and, you know, he can try to shut them down a little bit more.

But it's going to be a really tough one. The other thing is they have to figure out. something with their power play. I think in game one, they had a power play early in the game, and they were moving the puck around and generating quality chances. And then later on in game one, they had maybe the worst power play I've seen them have this entire year. And here it is. Your five-man unit is healthy. You have Braden Point back in the fold. You have exactly who you should want. And they just are not generating nearly enough off of that when they get those opportunities. And obviously, that was a huge thing for them in round three was how much they scored off those

power play goals when they were the better team. at even strength but didn't have the scoring to show for it. So I wonder if they make any adjustments there as well because maybe we didn't think of the avalanches penalty killing enough. And during the regular season, rightfully so without question, it was not good enough in the regular season, but it's improved as the year like went on and it's been so much better in the playoffs.

So that's something they have to scout that a little bit better and try to figure out ways to exploit any gaps that they can find. And obviously there aren't many. Yeah. I wonder, you know, the match of game, it's interesting. You brought that up. That's what I was thinking about as well in terms of, of we saw a bit of a glimpse of it in game two.

I think like in the third period and then the game just got out of hand until they basically scrapped it and just moved on. But they did, Cooper did kind of go to that breaking, a break in case of emergency option of putting Kucharov, Stamco's and point together for like one or two shifts. And we've seen them do it in the past. And they've been reluctant to because they've liked to like kind of spread out their lines more. But in this case, especially at home with benefit of last change,

if they can potentially get them out there for a few shifts against Colorado's third pairing in particular, maybe that can create a bit of an opening there for them. Obviously, that's going to put a lot of pressure then on that Sirelli line, which has struggled with Colorado's speed in this matchup. But yeah, I'm curious to see if they go kind of that offense, defense approach a bit more aggressively. In game one, you mentioned Sirelli and McKinnon went for like five minutes head to head, and McKinnon's line did just fine. And in game two, they played head to head for one minute and seven seconds.

And by my count, 40 of those seconds came right off the opening draw where they were both just out there to start the game. And so it was clear that Colorado decided like, listen, we're going to, we're going to free up our top line a little bit. And maybe even not necessarily free them up, but put them on Kuturov's line as well. Like he has so much faith in that McKean and the Chushkin Landiscah group at both ends. And they're working so hard that they kind of just completely blanketed Kuturov and Stancos. and they had no hope of creating anything. I felt like they didn't have the puck in that game two at all. And so maybe at home, the lightning go with just basically throwing Sirelli on that grenade

and just being like, listen, you're going to have to play all of these defensive zone minutes against the top line and just try to hang on. And that'll free up Kuturov, Stanikos, and Point to potentially have some more offensive zone shift. So that's something that I would consider. But we'll see what Cooper does. I do think I have faith in Cooper to cook something up at least here to give the lightning a bit of a chance. He never really gets the credit he deserves and like Jack Adams voting and stuff

because he's had such great personnel. And he kind of, I think it's almost self-inflicted in a way because he gives off this sort of like aloof personality on the bench sometimes. You know, like the camera pans to him where he's doing these in-game interviews. And like he's like, he's like, it's like, it's such a jovial guy. And he's like, just like, oh, we're just happy to be here. Like, you know, I'm just doing my job here, blah, blah, blah. This is part of the team and all that.

But like, I think behind the scenes, like he's very underrated as a tactician. and he pulls the right strings and he knows his team really well, of course, after all these years. And so if there is something to do to make life a little bit easier for them, I do have faith that they're going to explore that and key in on that and actually go that route as opposed to just being like, all right, well, we're going to keep trying to do this even though it doesn't work, which some other coaches might do in a similar position. Yeah, no, I think these are two of the better coaches in the league that don't get credit for it for some odd reason. And maybe it's because they didn't have the best saved percentage of the entire year this year. and that's why. But no, they really do deserve credit because I think Bednar really put the avalanche in a position to succeed this postseason by preparing them differently than years past, making sure

he had more versatility in the lines. I loved they just kept trying different combinations that I went. If this combo that we know it's incredible doesn't work, now we have all these options. And that paid off for them when you look at how rented and was struggling and how they knew this is the quick fix we can make. And then here are the results. For Cooper, we know how many in-game adjustments he can make. and in series adjustments he'll make.

So, you know, that Cologne, Sirelli, and Hagle line only was put together for game three of last series. So I'm curious to see where they go. I like the idea of point with Kutraff, because if we look at any of the past postseason runs, that's the combination that you have. And now that, you know, he has two games under his belt, maybe points going to be a little bit sharper. And there's only so much I know you can expect from him when he was dealing with the injury. And it shouldn't fully be on his shoulders. That's the whole point of being like so stacked.

But I wonder if maybe the two. of them together could be something, even if it's with Pilat because Palat and Kutrov have incredible chemistry or you keep Stamkos and Palat and that's your duo. And then Kutrov and point and that's your duo and try to just mix up the top four scoring, like the top six scoring options with those four. And you find someone to match up with them, whether it's Nick Paul playing with, say, Stamco's for a little bit more defensive stability because he could use it. You know, things like that. I wonder if those are the adjustments we start to see and really get that mixed and match a little bit more because it's great to have Stamco's and Kutra off together,

but maybe splitting them up is the way to do it. So one of them, if they get crushed by, say, McKinnon's line or Rantan's line, like you have more openings you can hope for. And they've been so good at managing home ice Tampa Bay. So I can't imagine that they don't get the matchups that they want because we didn't see that. You know, Sirelli last night, he only had a couple minutes of rancin. And he didn't get those top six matchups you'd expect him to get. And Cooper has gotten those matchups on the road before, you know, by outcoaching his

opponent, but with Bednar, like, that's not going to happen. So they have to use that home ice to their strength. And I'm, I'm so interested to see what they do. Yeah. Well, it's clear they need to fix the breakout first and foremost. Otherwise, none of this matters. And, you know, good luck doing so, of course, given the personnel that Colorado has and the limitations Tampa Bay might have with their defensive skating ability.

But I would say they kind of need to just pick away and go for it regardless in terms of they either need to bring their wingers. much further down to just like sag down basically by the goal line and provide quicker outlet so they can relieve a bit of that pressure and not have headman trying to do everything back there or they need to go completely for broke and just basically start sending kutrov almost cherry picking and like as soon as there's a hint that they're getting the puck just flying through the neutral zone and hoping that headman and surrogitchev can hit them with those kind of home run blob passes over the top because otherwise like they're kind of

stuck in the middle playing this like very neutrally in terms of like breaking out the way they usually would and the way they were able to against the Rangers. And the light and the ads are just like sitting all over that and they're like yes, please keep trying to do that. We will uh, we'll have a field day. So they need to fix that. And then the other thing is creating some sort of five on five offense, um, especially in terms of the cycle. Like how many, I'd be very curious to see how many cycle shots they've created in these two games because it feels like, you know, the fourth line had a bit of success in game two, but like that's Tampa Bay's bread and butter. And it feels like they haven't been able to establish that at all so far. It's been, it's actually been like kind of trading chances on the rush is when they've had a bit of

success offensively. Otherwise, it's been nothing. Yeah. For last night's game, I have eight nothing in cycle shots that were in the slot, slot attempts off the cycle. Right. I'd even think I'd eight, nothing last night. That's not going to get a done of attempt of it. No. And that's not going to test Kemper. That's the biggest thing too. Like, they're not jittering this five on five offense. They don't have much going on with their power play. They're making life way too easy for Darcy Kemper, who is of any of the goalies, you know, the one you can exploit. And instead it's Vasilevsky. It did look like they were trying to go a little bit more high blocker last night, too.

Like maybe that was their scouting because rightfully south where he's allowed more goals. And Darcy Kemp for his life has just been pretty damn easy. Like the last, even in game one, you know, Colorado was the better five on five team by a mile in game one. But last night in particular, like that is not the way to do it for a goaltender who's been shaky at best. He was great all season. Like I don't want to say, I know a lot of people. don't give him credit because he's not in that tier that we think of.

And he hasn't earned that. You know, he's a very, very, very good goalie, but he's not the elite tier. And I understand that. But in the playoffs, he just has not been as sharp. And you just need to put some chances on him and see what can happen. That's what Edmonton did. And that's why we've had like,

we've seen those, you know, high scoring games. And Colorado can win those types of games too. Tampa Bay just has to figure out a way to do it. Yeah, I mean, we came into a series being like, oh, the X factor is the goalie advantage. Vasselovsky versus Kemper. It's like, well, that's only an advantage if you actually get pucks towards Kemper and he hasn't had to do anything. Yeah, I mean, like the ideal possession for Tampa Bay is cycling the puck around his own, funneling it up to the point with that load of high play and then just kind of shooting for tips. And they basically

just like lean on you that way, right? And it's been a bit validating for me watching this play out because throughout the Florida and Newark series, I was like, I don't understand why they're just so willingly sitting back and allowing them to do exactly that, like at least pressure them at the point, try to use your speed to create odd man rushes. And the abs, I guess, are suited to do so because they have the personnel, of course, that affords them the ability to do that and play that way.

But I think just like that aggression is something that's really given to Tampa Bay problems. And like, well, the first shift of last night's game, right? They had, I think they spent 30 seconds in the offensive zone. It was going great. And the puck kind of bound.

is on Chernak. So they have to regroup in the neutral zone. McDonough gets it. Ntushkin's like right on him. And he gets backed up all the way into his own zone, turns it over, great a chance for Colorado. McDonough takes a penalty. Colorado scores on the power play and it's one nothing. And that's something that Colorado is obviously very talented, but they created that just because of the way they pressured them in that situation. And so Tampa Bay is going to need to figure out a way to sustain offensive zone shifts. And like I said, it's easier to than done. But it's pretty clear. I guess the good news for them is there's like two or three things that are very easily identifiable that they have to fix.

Now, how they go about fixing it is another challenge. And that's why John Cooper gets paid the amount of money he does. And that's why he has the job that he has. But I don't want to envy him. But at least like it's clear. It's not like a mystery in terms of why Colorado's winning the series. So I guess that at least provides like a bit of an entry point into fixing these things. Yeah, it's a matter of identifying it.

Okay, check got that. figuring out an answer and even if they do now the players executing. Like you're still asking a lot. But it's funny. Like we talk about how different this was. The Florida and the Ranger series really do like stand out for the Tampa Bay perspective, how different it was. If any teams need to be studying Colorado, it's the two of them.

For Florida, it's going, you can play to your strengths and win games. And what made you successful all season, you don't want to suddenly scramble that up into the postseason. And it was on them for the personnel decisions like Ben Chirot, who is one of the worst defensemen that they had the whole postseason. like who could have seen that coming. But you look at it especially for their forwards the way that they did and didn't challenge Tampa. You know, like they did have some really good scoring chances on the power play that they couldn't

convert because of Vasilevsky. But at five on five, you know, we're talking about it. They should be watching this series so closely going, okay, we might have different personnel groups, but our players can play this way or our players can play to their strengths. This is what we need to do. And for the Rangers, it's we know we have elite finishing. We know we have elite goaltending. Now it's everything in the middle.

and while they worked on their defensive structure in the second half of the regular season, you know, it did kind of fall apart in the playoffs. More than anything, though, it's their offense and seeing how Colorado is going up against them and getting through their defense in ways that the Rangers and, you know, Panthers just weren't able to do. They should be studying everything going, okay, it is so important to have that, like, strong foundation below the surface to be able to move the puck the way that they do, to have those cross-ice passes, to have those shots, you know, to be able to be monsters,

off the cycle and to create rush chances and not just get lucky that we scored on a couple of them. So there's just a lot for those two teams in particular to watch. This is how they managed against Tampa. And obviously, not everyone's Tampa Bay. But if you can beat Tampa Bay, you can be pretty damn good in this league. Yes, certainly. Yeah, well, I'm excited for game three. I'm curious to see what that pushback looks like, what those adjustments are and whether

they pay dividends. Selfishly, I'm hoping that happens because I'm not ready for. no more hockey for the next couple months. I'm excited about the offseason, of course, but let's get a few more competitive fun games here because especially for a large stretch of that game one, it was like, oh, my God, this is going to be the series that we've been hoping it's going to be. And then game two was just like not competitive. And so we'll see what the rest of the series has to offer.

Shana, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to do this and check in, plug some stuff. What have you been putting out lately where can people check out your work? So you can find my work at Sportsnet. and that is going to be primarily focused on this series this week. And that's how it was last week. I have something that went out about Valenichickin the other day. And then later today I have something coming out that's about players who were eliminated from the postseason,

like three young players who I think deserve attention for what they did, like K. Andre Miller and Jake Ottinger. And then for the athletic, I will just have a bunch of things all over the place. I know we're working on the analytics primer, a new look analytics primer. I'm very excited about and a mailbag to match. So hopefully it helps readers understand the numbers better, writers, how to use the numbers, where to find things when you watch a game, how we're constantly tweeting out these stats, just like here's a hand on how we do it.

So hopefully that helps out. All right. Well, looking forward to it. And I'm looking forward to getting you back on the show here. So enjoy the rest of the series. And we'll chat soon. Okay. Sounds good.

Thanks for having me. All right. That is going to be it for today's episode of the Hockeypedio cast. hopefully you enjoy our chat with Shana and it gets you ready for the rest of the series. We will be back soon with more on this feed. We'll see how the rest of the series turns out and we'll plan and record accordingly. If you enjoy the show, please help us out by leaving a quick rating interview as always. A bunch of you have done so.

Each one's greatly appreciated. Just smash that five-star button. It's really the easiest thing you can do and it helps us a ton. If you're feeling extra generous or you've been loving the show, you can, Drop us a quick line right up below review that either lets people know what you enjoy about it or why you recommend they check it out, what you've learned from and all that good stuff. So thank you so much for doing so. Really is appreciated. If you're looking for more content, you can also subscribe to EPRink side.

We just had a big promo code with the drop of the annual draft guide. And honestly, it is an invaluable resource this time of year. You're not going to get more detail and more useful information anywhere. So that draft guide alone makes the subscription to EPRankside worth it. You'll also get playoff and offseason coverage from myself as well and all sorts of other good stuff from our other writers as well. So definitely check out that draft guide though because I will, I'll certainly be digging into it myself. And we have the annual mock draft podcast with Cam Robinson and Chris Peters coming as soon as the playoffs are over. So that's going to kind of be our bridge into the off-season coverage here on the show.

So looking forward to that. Thanks for checking us out. Thanks for listening. Enjoy the rest of the Stanley Cup final. And we'll be back soon. Until then. Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovic and on SoundCloud at soundcloud.

At soundcloud.com slash hockey p.docast.