The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 450: Breaking Down the Blockbuster

Episode Date: July 25, 2022

Thomas Drance joins the show to discuss Matthew Tkachuk going to the Panthers, Jonathan Huberdeau and Mackenzie Weegar going to the Flames, and what's next for both teams following their blockbuster trade. Topics include: Why Matthew Tkachuk is such a unique player What our expectations should be for his future scoring How he'll provide the Panthers with a different offensive element The age bracket of Florida's new core Why they were comfortable trading Huberdeau and Weegar Whether they have any cards left to play The amount of leverage Calgary had in negotiations What Darryl Sutter can get out of Huberdeau defensively The reason Weegar is polarizing and how much of it is fair How Calgary's playing style is a great fit for both The Flames loaded defense and potential combinations What they can do next to add to their team If you haven't done so yet, please take a minute to leave a rating and review for the show. Smash that 5-star button. If you're feeling extra generous, you can also leave a little note about why you recommend people check the PDOcast out. Thanks for the help, each one is much appreciated! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

On a beautiful run through the park, on a pleasant day, you can easily get lost. No, no, no. She didn't kill him. Huh? In your true crime podcast. It was the pool guy. So obvious. Whatever motivates you works for us. It's all about letting your run be your run. And Brooks is here for every runner.

Doing the research and sweating the details to create gear that works for you. It's your run. Brooks, run happy. Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dimitri Phil. Welcome to the Hockey-Ocast. My name is Dimitri Felpovich. And joining me is my good buddy Thomas Trance. Thomas, what's going on, buddy? Oh, man, just wrapping my head around. It's not just this weekend either, right? I'm wrapping my head around this weekend, but I feel like I'm wrapping my head around an offseason where all of the dire warnings about the importance of cap space.

came totally true over the course of the last three weeks of NHL business. Like all of a sudden, players are valued in this way in real time that matches what I feel like, at least the cap savvy and the analytics savvy among the hockey commentary. We've been grading trades like this for like years, but they haven't actually looked like the way we've discussed them. All of a sudden they do. All of a sudden they do.

It was, I feel like this weekend almost in particular. And that Friday window where you get the Lion A signing, the Bjork Strand trade, and then that Kachuk Hubert Omega deal was this moment where all of a sudden, all of these principles about cap flexibility, about cost certainty, about sort of these, you know, highfalutin, intangible concepts really sort of shaped the NHL news cycle. it was pretty mind-blowing. Yeah. I'm still stunned, right?

Yeah, it's nice to see actions have consequences for once in the NHL. No kidding. Yeah, no, I mean, and it extends just in general, like, it's even stuff that hasn't necessarily played out yet as a sign of that, right? Like, we're kind of in this holding pattern right now where teams are still trying to figure out. We've got some pretty big name free agents who are still, you know, we're still trying to accommodate them. Are still on the market or are they? Theoretically, yes. Their cat-friendly page says that they're still available.

certainly. Okay, so. They've all signed with the Islanders. We just don't know the details. Well, you know, the registry's backed up. They haven't gone through everything yet. They're in the queue. It's been really nice weather out, you know, out of office right now.

So we were planning on doing like kind of like a last, uh, free agency slash off season moves round up anyways. And then this trade came on Friday night and I was like, okay, this is going to be perfect timing for us. So I think we're going to, we're going to just really unpack all that. There's a lot of stuff I want to talk about. No promises. we're going to get to any of it other than this trade because I feel like it might just take us the full hour.

So we'll kind of feel that out. Let's start with, uh, let's start with, uh, let's start with the trade has some lessons, though that pertain to some of the other moves we saw last week. So I, I feel like we'll naturally, you know, in classic catcher in the rye fashion, like digress into, into some of those. Oh. Into deep, need, no, needer writer takes on undoubtedly. All right.

Let's start. Let's, this is a good entry for, enjoy it for us. The panther side of the trade. So you and I, Thursday, I believe, to give people a behind the scenes peek at our lives. Yes. We're hanging out at the dog park, watching our dogs do really cute shit. The way we, I think we typically do. At least two, three times a week.

And because we have no lives, of course, we're talking about Matthew Kuchuk and trades. We'd like to see it and potential offers and this and that. And you floated an interesting one at me. They caught my attention. And it was. Wieger? Wiener? Berhege.

Carter Berhegey. And Justin Swardiff as like the prospect slash young kids. they couldn't possibly trade another first. Yes. I underrated. I underrated just how L.A. Rams. The Florida Panthers are. How New York Nixon.

Yes. So that was that kind of calm my eye because I think I'd been so focused on the blues component of it because it just feels like kind of like the writing was on the wall for that. And so we're trying to figure out what was going to go on there. And it wound up being, you know, pretty astute of you. So I wanted to start off by buttering you up here and giving you a little bit of credit because you were on it. I wouldn't have assumed Hubertow, though, right?

I would have thought, you know, the Huberto inclusion is so fascinating to me. Yeah. I'd sort of heard earlier in the summer that potentially the Panthers didn't even have interest in extending them. Like that wasn't something they seriously wanted to consider. Yep. And I kind of didn't really kick the tires on it a ton, even though it came to me through my sort of Florida Whisper Network, the palm tree network that I still have from my time working for that organization. I just sort of was like, okay, I mean, that makes sense as something they'd view as high risk

and sort of put it in my back pocket. I didn't assume that they'd act on it this offseason, considering what this team is poised to do again next year. I mean, they were a hundred and 22-point team. They were historically good. Hubert-O was the third leading scorer in the NHL. I figured that's not a situation that you need to, sort of move on actively. Now, the Uyghur thing too, I'd sort of, I'm not the only guy who heard

this, Uyghur's name was out there over the course of draft week in particular. I think there was a sense that he might be available. I think that there's, there was a sense that it was time to move on internally with the Panthers and their top pair left side defensemen who happens to be right-handed, an incredibly unique profile. You can't understand this deal, I think, without understanding that from Florida's perspective, neither of those contracts, like the next contracts that those guys signed are not contracts that Florida wanted. Yeah. Right?

Certainly. You cannot understand the deal without understanding that from the Panthers' perspective, they valued these guys as one-season guys. Yeah. And the opportunity to pounce on a unique power-forward player type and lock that guy up from ages 25 to 33, right? I mean, is there a single year of Matthew Kachuk's next deal that you're even, like, nervous about from a declining, you know, from a, from an inefficiency perspective? No.

Not really. No. Not really. Yeah. Your mining is entire. He's not going to get slower. No. It's impossible.

And with a guy like Kachuk, like, I know Kach's a physical guy with great hands. Yeah. But it's like, what makes Kichuk special? It's that he's one of the smartest guys on the eye. Certainly. He's smart and a dumb way. And he picks his spots too, yeah. Oh, he doesn't just pick his spots.

He hammers them. He nails them. He's a genius. I mean, I just think there's no, there's no inefficient season on that. Whereas with a Huberto extension, Hubertow is going to be 30, right? Yep. The first year of his next deal. What year aren't you concerned about the inefficiency of it, right?

I mean, it's just a completely different world. So Florida basically, I think, is really benefiting from the cost certainty of, a unicorn type player. There's really no other Matthew Kachuk in the NHL. Yeah. And they valued that uniqueness. They valued that cost certainty. They valued the window of it.

They got the clock right in terms of adjudicating player value here. And yet, it feels like the Calgary Flames pulled a rabbit out of the hat, right? We're going to save the flame side of this. I'll stick with Pandizu for a second. Kachuk's a really good fit for them. Yes. And we're going to talk about that as well. How worried are you about Sam Bennett?

No, okay, stop. Stop you right there. I want to hammer that point you made about the timeline and kind of the contractual component of this. So it's funny because at the trade deadline, when they acquired Claude Rue, I really was like, I was giving this a lot of thought because it seemed like the sentiment at the time was,

oh, the Panthers are loading up for one big run here. And my kind of pushback to that was, well, if you look at their team, pretty much every core member is between 24 and 26 years old, except for Jonathan Huberto and Mackenzie Weger. Right. And it's interesting that those are the two guys. They stripping them,

there's obviously the fact that they don't have term on their deal allows them to do so, or at least makes them feel more comfortable doing so. Yeah. And then they bring in Matthew Kuchuk, who's turning 25 this season, and they have them up until he's 32, so that's the entirety of his prime.

Yeah. And that aligns, like, other than Anton Lundell, who's 20, pretty much everyone, right? Like, Barkov, Berhege, Bennett, Ryan Hart, like everyone, Eckblad, everyone in there is like 26 years old, basically. Right. And that is like a great position to be in as an organization

because you're getting their best seasons. Yeah, you're taking five years. You have a five year run now. Yeah. With incredible cost certainty. And really none of those contracts are any, like you don't look at any of those contracts as being dubious. Yeah.

I mean, they're all, do you remember, do you remember when Aaron Eckblad's contract was sneered at? Yeah. I mean, we're only like three years removed from that being the case, but that's a steal now. Well, would you agree that it's almost impossible in this day and age? Like, if you get a young player to sign a long-term deal that keeps their number down from what it could potentially be,

pretty much all those age well. I mean, like the coyotes signed a few of them under Cheka that like didn't. Yeah. But for the most part. But even the ones that didn't. Because you can get away from it if it doesn't work out. Like someone will take that player. Well, and also you can buy them out before the age of 25 at one-thirds.

True. But I mean, even the ones that haven't worked out for Arizona, we're talking like Clayton Keller. Like you could get value for Clayton Keller. And he's a good player for sure. And you could, and Nick Schmaltz, you could get value for Nick Schmaltz.

I mean, even the ones that haven't worked out have, which I think makes your point. The other one that someone might throw out there would be Mitch Marner. Yep. But wouldn't you rather have Mitch Marner's contract and be Toronto than have Matthew Kachuk's contract

and be Calgary? I mean, none of those bridges worked. Like that same summer that Mitch Marner signed the contract, Lyonet got bridged since been traded to Brinket got bridge. since been traded. I already said, Lione. Yeah. Kachuk got bridged since been traded.

Besser got bridged. You know, that was a kind of a train wreck in terms of like they, it got pulled out of the fire, but the whole, the whole situation unfolded in a messy way. And then like don't sleep on the Timo Meyer $10 million qualifying offer story. Like that's going to be a big problem. That's going to end up in arbitration next summer.

I think people underrate like how much of a headache it is for an organization to like have really good players that are UFAs to be. Even if you're a good team that season, like the goal is to win the cup that season. Yeah. Like it's impossible to get away from that story, right? And even if they're a year out. It complicates things.

Well, look at what Matthew Kachukh was able to do. Matthew Kachuk was able to exercise what Jalen Rose calls pre-agency. Right. Right. In the NBA context. A year out, he basically was able to force his hand, kind of pick his spot. We all sort of, we all sort of knew that he wanted to go to one of those low-tax

states, the playoff team, right? And he was able to kind of drive the bus there. And, you know, that's a really stark example that I think a lot of, and not just Canadian teams, a lot of teams need to sort of understand here because all of a sudden it's not like you're living in a world. In the wake of Kachuk, it's not like teams are living in a world where, you know, to take another example from a player that I cover in Elias Pedersen, right? Elis Pedersen has two years left on his deal. This is not a situation that you have to sort out in 24 months. It's one that could shape next offseason.

If the Kachuk example is any indication, which I think it has to be. Okay. Let's get back to the Kachuk bit here. I want to talk about him as a player. You mentioned he's a unicorn and I've seen that term throwing around. It should be, right? He's a unique player. There's just not a lot of guys who hit that much, score that much,

are that annoying, draw that mental. much draw that many penalties without taking too many. Like there's the power forward archetype. There's very few guys who actually do it year after year after year. Kachach's one of them. Yeah. Well, players like him don't typically become available because players like him don't really exist. Correct.

Yeah. Right? There's like six of them. A 24 year old who just had a career offensive season that's available. And you're right. A top line offensive talent who produces like one. So it's not like a theoretical, oh, this guy's got. skill like we've seen him produce on the stat sheet like that he's malleable and i think really important

in this discussion to fit into any situation right i think you need the reason why he was so good with johnny goddrault was because johnny goddrault was because he carried the puck and that's something matthew could chuck and it's a credit to him because he's a smart player he realizes he doesn't have the foot speed to be trying to galvan through the neutral zone yeah and and do wild stuff with it right so he gets it and he he quickly tries to get it to goddrow or a faster skater sometimes even like rasmus anderson right yeah and he tries to give it off to a better skater and then he can kind of at his own pace get to where he needs to be in the offensive zone

and that's a credit to him and an understanding of his own strengths and weaknesses and Florida has a lot of guys like that especially if he's playing with like Barkov and Verhege, let's say on a line those are like two of the best guys in the league at entering the zone with possession and then making a chance happen off of it

so he won't have to worry about doing any of that and so he can fit into all these different spots and then he has that like he checks every box in the sense that he has the offense, but then he has those, I don't want to say intangibles because I think we can tangibly quantify like he gets people to take penalties against him because he's so annoying. Like he takes a lot himself, at least most recently, but he's like, he still draws more than his irritation that he causes is a tangible quality because it forces opponents to make dumb

mistakes against him. It's good that he's in the division with Brady. Yes. Like that's, you know, the fact that we're going to get four to five of those a year is perfect. I'm very excited. There's one picture in Getty images from the one. they were playing each other during the Canadian bubble where they're in a post whistle scrum and both of them are like there's like referees between them but both of them have a finger

like in each other's mouth or around each other's face and then each have their mouthguards sticking out on the side and they're like they're just doing annoying they're like basically wet willying each other oh just like renaissance art yeah exactly i'm excited for that the kachuk you know it's interesting i remember kach in his draft year and it was hard to isolate his own offensive impact because he played with the U.S. national development team on the line with Austin Matthews, pretty good, no big deal, right? And then went to the Ontario Hockey League for his draft eligible season

and was like the perfect running mate for Mitch Marner. Yep. Right? And, you know, I think we've seen now in Calgary, too, there's an element of his game that's in line with, you know, what I call the heavy press type, by which I mean, like the less skilled guy that compliments. the more skilled players.

This is something that everyone has to have in the cap era, and these guys increasingly get paid, as Zach Hyman showed us, right? Yep. But Kachuk has his own elite level of skill. He just also can play that role. I don't know that anyone else fits that mold to me. I mean, I think you go down the list,

and it's guys like Timo Meyer. You know, Timo Meyer is really good, but he's not an elite offensive guy. Well, he is, but he's more of a, creates for himself more than like Kachukchuk's much more a facilitator, right? Total. Kachuk, Kachuk, in terms of his overall offensive impact is great on his team, I mean, right? You know, Tyler Bertuzi. Right.

I'm just saying you go, Hyman, you go down the list, Michael Bunting. You go down the list and it's just like Kachuk is so clearly. Yes. The absolute top echelon model of this super valuable player type. Yep. And the ability to plug him in with Barkoff, I think. I mean, that sounds, that lines, especially if Barkoff's stride, like the power in his stride, looks like it did the first half last season, more than the second half last season,

that line can do some really, like, crooked things in terms of the way they control play. Yeah, if his skating is hampered and then you put a check on that as well, then I'd be worried. But I'm really not, like, I've seen people be like, oh, what's his foot speed going to look like in an Atlantic division that's pretty fast? And it's like, I think it'll be fine because he doesn't put himself in a position where it's an issue. He also can play fast. He thinks quickly enough that it's not a big, he's got fast hands. You know what I mean? Like there's elements of his game that, now here's the one thing, though, that I'm worried about from a Panthers perspective. The Panthers have been, and Bill Zito has been on until this deadline, Bill Zito was on this like PDO heater.

Yeah. In terms of the trades that he made. Every move, like King Midas stuff, right? Everything he touched turned to gold for a few years. And then you get Chirot. And then you get Charot. and then you get Claude Giroux, who was kind of a cooler. I mean, look at that power play in the playoffs, right? Like, Juru was exactly what that team didn't need. I know he was their second best player in the playoffs. Yeah.

But he just wasn't what that team needed by any stretch of the imagination. Chirot was bad there. Yeah. Chirot was genuinely bad. And then, you know. Well, he proved the limitation of that system. He did. He finally showed that someone could go to Florida out.

I think, no, he was testing the outer limits to figure out, like, you know, all right, I found the line. Okay. But one of the gambles that the Panthers made that I didn't like at the time, because most of them I loved. Like I thought Declare was, even the ones that didn't work out, like Hinnastrozo's. Like, that makes sense. Right. You know? The one that I didn't like at the time and then it worked was the Sam Bennett.

Yes. And extension. And to be clear, I like the trade, fine. Yeah. Bennett for two seconds, whatever. That's a worthwhile gamble to take. But to extend him off of 14 games with a high shooting percentage, I thought was really, you know, I want to use the trade. word reckless, but premature.

Yeah. Risky. And yet that worked. Ben, it was fantastic last year. Well, it's one thing to succeed in the, on an, on a second line on an elite team. Yeah. It's another to succeed as like a righty who's a decent finisher who gets to play with Jonathan Huberto, who for me is the best playmaking winger in hockey.

I'm all apologies to Nikita Kutrov. I think Kutrov is a more dynamic dual threat and a better play. but for me in terms of pure passing ability playmaking right Jonathan Huberto is the best winger in hockey Qualitative take from me Feel free to quibble with it. I know Godreau and Panarin there's arguments you can make but for me it's Huberto I'm really worried that out in the wake of this trade the Sam Bennett factor how how much less is Bennett without Huberto to play with that would be the one concern. Yep, the one big team

sort of fit concern that I have in the wake of this deal is I just the panthers are still going to be so good they have so many assertive two way pieces right they're there they're maybe they wanted to to move away from the sort of skill game that a player like hubertoe represented but they don't have a huberto now they don't have they probably have enough offense overall that it's not going to matter but they i still think they're going to miss him a fair bit okay here and and no one more so than Bennett. Yes. Okay,

here's my question. It's kind of related to that. So, you know, Chuck timed this really well in terms of maxing out his value. Last year,

he was sixth in points, 104 of them. Ninth in goals, 42. He was also third and five-on-five points, 64 of them. The combination of him,

Goodro and Lanoa and Aved down here, outscored team 73 to 31 at 5-15. Now, now... I mean, people aren't talking

enough about how that season from that line. It was not just that they were the best line in hockey last year, right? They were like the best line we've seen in hockey in five years, at least. Well, okay, so related to you, though, here's my question. What's a reasonable expectation for a chuck offensively moving forward? I'll give you some stats. Back that up.

Past three years before this previous one, two, one point nine seven, two point two seven, five points per 60. that ranked 81st 94 and 48 which is good that means he's a first line player yeah this past year he jumped up to 3.25 which was the 6th best rate right now he himself shot 16.6% which is high but you know considering where he generally shoots from playing with Johnny Badrow between his legs yeah yeah like you know what not outrageous I think he shot 16.4 in like 2018 19 he's been like 12 to 13 13 first career it's like Malan luchitch in his prime was like an 18% shooter and there was not a lick of regression that was ever going to happen. It's a couple extra goals regardless, even if he bounces down a little bit. Now, the Flames as a team when he was on the ice shot 12.3% as a team. 12.3% of their shots went, turned into goal. I didn't even know that was allowed when Darrell Sutter is your coach.

That's a pretty telling sign of regression. Now, it's funny you brought up like the charot thing because I was going to say, my only hesitation of like pronouncing him a clear regression candidate is we've seen player time and time again the past few years step into this Florida Panthers. system. Now, new coach, should mention that as well, see what Palm Maurice does, but theoretically, everyone has looked their best coming into Florida. I forgot about how much they were cussing each other out during the 2020 bubble. I have a feeling he'll like him now.

100%, but I'd forgotten, I'd forgotten just how tense it was in that arena. Yeah, yeah, yeah, certainly was. After the, after the, yeah, you were there for all those games. Oh, yeah. So, you know, we'll see what happens. I, I would argue that at what he signed, for considering it is all of his prime seasons. He doesn't need to be a hundred plus point player to be effective because he does provide so many other multi-dimensional values.

If he's 75 to 85, which seems reasonable because that's pretty much what he performed at before this, I think that's fine. People might be disappointed because they're expecting 104 points, but. If Mason Marchman's a 50-point player in Florida, there's at least a chance that Kachuk is going to continue to produce a ton.

I just, I don't know how much how much of what made Florida special in transition was lost with Weger and how much of what made Florida special in terms of the efficiency in zone was lost with Hubertoe. I'm not saying all of it by any means because there's so much talent still down there. But some of that offensive top end was wrapped up in a couple guys who are no longer on that team.

And so I'm really curious to see what this looks like because I think we are sleeping on, I think we are sleeping on the Weeger impact. in particular. Yeah. Right. And I think on both sides. So when we get into Calgary, we'll talk about it more.

But it's like, you know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure in a vacuum going into next season that the Florida Panthers are better subbing in Cachuk for Hubert O, period. To be totally honest with you. And then when you also remove Weiger, I don't think. I just, I do think there's a chance this takes away, you know, plus the department. departure of of the sort of brunette quenville group how much does that neuter what it become a really you know sharp cutting edge for a pretty much unmatched panthers of offensive attack i mean

i think there's at least a chance that it's not insignificant here's what i'll say to that one ties back to you're totally right but i think we spent 10 minutes of the start of the show talking about how contractually I'm okay with them losing two, three, four standing points or whatever from making this subtraction on their main roster. Yeah. For the cost certainty of- If it extends two or three years of a competitive window down the line. I'm fine with that.

Other point out. I'm fine with that with some reservations, which in particular, the thing no one ever talks about enough with the Florida young team thing is, is Barkoff. Yeah. Right? I mean, he's got the back of a 47-year-old. At some point, you do wonder if, in fact, you know, that you look at the ages and it looks good,

but you have to take into account who's really stirring the drink there. You know, it's a certain Finnish-born player with Russian heritage. And the fact that, you know, at some point, you've got to be concerned about a guy who's had back injuries because back injuries are the type that never actually heal, right? You just manage. And, you know, I thought he looked like a different player in the last 30 games last year. Certainly.

Versus the first. Well, and there's no way around that. if that's the player they're getting and not the one that he can be at his absolute best, then none of this really matters in my, in my name, like they're screwed. It's all window dressing. It's a good point. Here's what I would say. I think normally we push back so much against the idea that, like, what,

they lost at a lightning within eight days. And I think you and I did a podcast shortly after that series. And I think we brought up this point a lot. But watching that series, I do genuinely believe they can't, they couldn't keep just playing the same. same way and expect different playoff results. You're right. Because I think there was something fundamentally flawed in the way they were approaching it.

And it wasn't like, oh, we just got PDOed for four games. Like, no, you are trying to play a certain way that clearly doesn't work in this setting. If it hadn't happened against Washington 2, it would be one thing. It was like such an inferior team to them. Such an inferior team. But they both, they both, in Washington's case, they pushed them into the brink. And I know it was a six game series, not a seven game series. but like that series was seconds from being 3-1, right?

They pushed them to the brink and then the Tampa Bay Lightning swept them, both because the Panthers couldn't figure out a way to break down a relatively straightforward one-three-one. Like that's a problem. Well, the past few years of lightning, or sorry, the Panthers have been unequivocally the best rush team. I guess maybe like you could put the abs in there,

but pretty much like in terms of what they create off the rush, it's been incredible. And then throughout the regular season, they were just kind of overwhelming inferior teams and even good teams because you almost can't prepare for it because they play so differently than everyone else right and as they come into these playoff settings and obviously you don't want to overreact losing to the lightning because they are such a great champion but when you can slow the game down when the rules change a little bit when you can like distinctly game plan for a team defensively and take away their plan a if they don't have a plan

B like you're screwed like you can't just get by even the avalanche we saw how many different ways that they beat teams over the course of they their Stanley Cup run. Like, you have to have different types of players who can beat you in different ways because, of course, everyone's watching and scouting and they're going to try, like, if you don't take away a team's plan A, then, like, what are you doing in the playoffs? You need to be able to play the game that's in front of you. And it's not just the abs.

Think about the Tampa Bay Lightning, right? And their maturation. Yeah. And then the way that they started punking everybody by mimicking their style and just doing it better, right? I mean, you're right. You have to have that tactical malleability, I think, for sure, at once. you get into playing the best every second night in the Stanley Cup playoffs.

So here's why I brought that up. I don't think Chuck, he's not the playmaker that Hubert O is on a pure talent or in terms of how much he creates. But I think they can make up for a lot of that offensively because he provides a different form of it. And by that, I mean, like we kind of alluded to this, but like his ability to kind of hang out by the goal line in the offensive zone and be a triple threat, whether it's doing the traditional stand in front of the goalie's screen, it takes some.

punishment try to tip the puck or gets it at the side of the net brings it out front tries for 4800 time to go through the legs download passing right but the download passing the nick felino impression the goal line pass off the download how many times that l island home score off of that like quick one touch where you just get it into slot before they could adjust it's such a rare skill too so good there's there's not a lot of guys who do that well like i literally bring up nick felino because he's like the only guy i can think of i mean meiko rattan and has it to him to his game, but it's like, there's not a long list of guys who are really, really good at it.

Matthew Kachuk is exceptional. Yeah, yeah. So whether it's that or like kind of work in the cycle and trying to grind out offensive possessions, I think he does give them a new way of attacking a defensive shell that's like, we're not going to let you play with space or speed. Like you can come into the offensive zone, but we're going to like be around the net.

What are you going to do next? I think he gives them like a problem solving option for that. that I don't think they had before necessarily. And so if he's able, like, if he's able to, as good of a passer as Huberto was, if you're telling me that Chuck's going to be on the goal line, and then you're going to have either Barkov or Reinhardt or Bennett or Hrbrike, whoever, just kind of streaking into the slot and waiting for those passes, like, I'm interested, I'm interested to see that.

I am too, but one tragedy for me of the last two years, like of the Panthers glow up, which didn't result in much in the way of playoff success. One tragedy to it for me. is there seemed to be a reluctance to play Barkov and Hubert O together. Yeah. They really barely played like only when trailing, it was like 205 on five minutes last season. We barely saw it in the playoffs.

Yeah. And, you know. But that's kind of by design, no. No, like when they were a bad team, it was like they have one line. Totally. Totally. I get it. But I mean, as that team got deeper.

Right. Like you're telling me you couldn't have found a useful supporting attack with some combination of Bennett, Lundell, Reinhart, Declare Verhegey? Like, surely you can build an average second line out of that. And at least, at least, you know, try a different look here and there because there was a thing that Hubert Owen Barkoff were able to do it together, whether it was with Yager or Bugstad. They made Bugstack a 30 goal score one season.

Dodonov, they had some nice seasons with Daddy on the right wing. like there was a mind meld between those two, like two pass-first lefties who are big enough to win battles along the wall. Maybe again, it's my Vancouver bias. But there's something about that player type and that combination between them that I had a lot of affection for. I think it's just too bad that they never tried that because one of the ways you could have produced more without leaning so heavily on your rush

chances was to install a cycle game built around those two with literally anybody playing right wing. True. I would have loved to have seen it more. True. Well, I think they probably feel more confident that they have the personnel to pull that off now in terms of front. I'll see if Paul Reis, who's not necessarily known for being a freaking offensive creative genius here. We'll see if he's pulling the strings.

I think the Panthers may have significantly weakened their blue line. Wow. And I think there's a real chance that while they'll benefit from the cost. they've installed, there's not enough coming now. Yeah. And not enough assets. Like they, they've drafted so well, too. In this sort of Zito era, you look at the sort of pick.

Like, they haven't had a ton of picks, but the ones that they've used, they've been pretty consistent about shooting for upside with some pretty good results, Devon Levy being a sort of another good example. It's going to be really hard for them to improve the way they need to, especially on that blue line. I mean, who's playing with Ekblad now? You know, like, what does that defense, what's the top four even look like? Well, and I think...

That's the tricky situation because if they had kept brunette and you were like, they're going to play the same way they played last year in the regular season. Sure. And they just made this trade. I'd feel more confident because I thought that system made it so much easier for, like, the Brandon Monters and Gustav Orsings of the world to... Like, you're just playing. up and down and you're like, all right,

there's always going to be, there's always going to be someone available, and there's always going to be space for you to skate into. So if you can move and those guys are pretty easy to find, well, you'll make some good stuff happen. I'm a bit more worried now, certainly, because I don't know, like, I don't know how much of it was by necessity and how much of it was because he wanted to, but Paul Murray's during the end of his Winnipeg tenure,

like after they, like, basically got rid of all that Blue Line talent, part of the problem was they were like getting Nick Geelers, and Kyle Conner and Mark Shagfly and all their forwards to do like literally everything. And so they would go back and play the puck and then have to carry it out themselves. And I wonder if that's what they're going to try to do here.

Like just basically make sure their defensemen other than that like that just don't have to do anything. So I don't like it. Well, yeah. I wonder if that's logic though. I'm trying to work my way to do it. I'm worried that the Panthers are now a little bit stuck. Yeah.

I think it's going to be very hard. They're now in the same situation that an awful lot of teams. teams find themselves in where you might like the core and you might like the cost certainty they've built, but the task is the task ahead now is going to be, can you get better and cheaper at the same time at several premium positions, including goal tending, where they've gotten intractable millstone hanging over their head through no fault of the current management group and defense. And that's a tall order. Like, that's what after the league struggles with

and is banging their head against the wall trying to do year after year. we just talk about how the Panthers for the past two years have done such a good job of identifying guys are cheap and then getting the most out of them? We have, but the gravy train is stopping a little bit. Right. To some extent. Well, it is when you target Ben Chirot. But also the fall of 2020 is not replicable. Like the Panthers, the Montreal Canadians and the New Jersey Devils were like the only three teams with buying power. Yeah. You know, I mean, that that doesn't exist anymore. You know, the the spending advantage that the Florida Panthers. enjoyed for one year was a truly a one year thing you got to credit a rookie general manager for making you know hay out of that but like that that gravy trains over and those players aren't going to cost you one million anymore well you know they i think they are limited you mentioned

like they've moved their first round picks now 22 23 24 25 yeah but here's my my rough kind of back of the napkin in math they have 75 million in cap commitments for the next next season tied up in 11 forwards, four defensemen, and two goalies. Scary, right? That doesn't include Anthony DeClares 3 million, which will start on LTIR, but he will be back around January, I think. And when's Lundella? Well, I'm not even going to worry.

They can't worry about that right now. You got to. Have 50 points. That 75 million doesn't include Patrick Cornquist 5.3 million. Oh my goodness. Which is expiring. Yeah. He's got an eight-team, no trade list.

the problem for them is that all of that money is tied up in base salary. Right. So the problem also is that you have to pay. Right. We'll get into this more when we get into the Calgary Flames side of it. But the commonality that we've seen in some of the most lobsided deals of this offseason, like what is it? Right.

There's a commonality. Every deal that hockey Twitter has been scratching their heads at or calling a deal or what have you. I mean, there's a common threat. To brink it, patch ready, right? Bjork Strand. Bjork Strand, for sure. And now Hubert O'Kichuk.

And I mean, the lesson isn't hard to figure out. The connection isn't hard to figure out here. Like, scoring wingers are everyone's first cap casualty. Yeah. Everyone's first cap casualty. So getting off of... What about fourth line wingers? Yeah.

So getting off of a J.B. VR or Patrick Cornfist. Yeah, that's tough. I mean, I think you can maybe do it at the deadline. Well, last summer, different circumstances, but last summer, they had $4.5 million left to pay out Anton Strauman. Right. And they moved him to Arizona for a second and a prospect.

Yeah, but they don't have those players anymore. I don't see how they make this work if they don't move Patrick Gornquist's money or get him to retire. Well, he's not going to retire. But the... They're going to be a cap team with four defensemen under contract. Yeah, no, I mean, they might be stuck. Like, I have real concerns. At the same time, though, they have a lot of dope players in their prime.

They're going to be good. Yeah. But they're also going to be, they're also, like, they're going to be good, but are they better? Yeah. Do you think they're better? Like, just, yes, no. They're not going to be better next season. Okay.

So they're going to be good, but they're not better than they were last season where they lost in a sweep in the second round. Right. And the avenues to improve further are blocked. That's my concern with the Florida side of this deal. Yeah. It feels like they've, you know, I don't want to say they've driven into a ditch because no, that's extreme.

The Barkov, Kachuk, Reinhart, Ekblad ditch is more like a resort. Yeah. But they've like driven to a resort. And it's like the Hotel California. Like they're going to have a nice time. They can check out any time they like, but they can't leave. leave. Like they're kind of stuck there. And I don't love that. I don't love that for a team that's, you know, they're probably good enough to be a contender, but it's going to be a murderer's

road for them yet again in the toughest division in hockey. It will. No, I don't have, I wish I could disagree with that. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's fair. Like, you have to realistically look at it. I love to stand the Panthers. I still think there'll be a really fun team to watch. I think they'll be different. I I think they'll be worse. Like, I don't, even if they brought back the same players, they probably weren't going to have the same success they had last year. The NHL doesn't really work like that.

No. I think they've opened up, it's weird. I think in terms of actually playing on the ice, I think they've opened up potentially different looks that might serve them well in a playoff setting. I think in terms of like, from the front office perspective,

in terms of fielding that our roster, their options have been limited. So I, I just, It feels to me like they, I want to try and get this analogy right, but it feels to me like they've, feels to me like they're on the right side of the James Neal Patrick Hornfus trade that Pittsburgh made five years ago, right?

In that they've sort of traded the better player for a rarer player, right? But you like that deal a lot less when part of the price of making it happen. includes like the right-handed version of Devon Taves. You know, like that makes me a little bit more circumspect. Yeah. About the trade. I just think people are sleeping on the impact of the defenseman here. And as we pivot to talking about...

If they were uncomfortable, if they've truly viewed it as McKenzie Weger will not be on our team. Beyond next season. Yeah. I guess you could argue they could have used him in a separate trade to potentially get other players that could help them. Yeah. Or go with him for one more. season. Yeah, also he could be on your team. You don't have. I mean, especially if, especially if the issues are off ice or our giveaways. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's not like

McKenzie Wigger's issues were like speed. Yes. Or, you know, I just think, recognized employees with custom ink. Show customer appreciation with custom ink. Outfit your teams with custom ink. Easily add your logo to your favorite products and brands at custom ink.com. Make custom ink your Custom Gear partner with great customer service, quality products, and all in pricing, along with personalized help when you need it, and an easy-to-use website when you don't. All backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Do it all today at customink.com. Champions aren't born. They're made. And the secret to make your business reign supreme, Shopify, the all-in-one commerce platform to start, run, and grow your business.

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And then we can talk about Hubert O and Uighur as well. Can I just start by asking the big question that I have? Because I don't have an answer to it. Okay. But I want I want this to hang over our discussion of the flames. Okay. And I'm hoping that you can also give me your view like a partial answer to it. The thing I don't know from a Calgary perspective, the thing I'm fascinated to watch, like, what is the impact of giving the best defensive team in hockey?

Yeah. A top pair quality, an additional top pair quality defenseman. Like, I can't remember that happening in my lifetime. Like, I can't think of an analogous situation. What is the impact of giving the best defensive team in hockey a player like that? Like I find it very difficult to sort of handicap how good Calgary is going to be in the wake of this deal. Because my first blush sort of take is that's going to be pretty impressive. They're going to be really hard to score against.

Yeah, well, initially I'd say I think you do reach a point of diminishing returns in terms of like, even if you had six Nicholas Liddstroms, I feel like at some point you will give up a certain amount of goals. like I think like you can only be so good defensively in a way similar to like you can only really be so good offensively like I I think we'd like to think that like oh if you maximize every single line up spot and you had like 12 perfect forwards that all fit each other so like yeah that's not the best you're ever going to be is 58% yeah like it's just that's the way it works mackenzie weger though is such an interesting player because on top of the defensive acumen he's also so involved in the transition with the puck right that I think he can actually help

them offensively just as much in a way, which you talked about how like for the Panthers the way they wanted to play or the way they were playing, how much of that was also boosted by the fact that they had this guy who could just like get the puck out of his own pretty much whenever he wanted to. And you saw it in that Stars series where like only Shillington and Anderson were really threats with the puck and Anderson at a far less dynamic clip. Yeah. Just because just because of his foot speed. I mean, I think he's more creative than Shillington to be honest with you. But Schillington can move in a totally different way. Totally. Adding another body. And then and then, and then.

the sort of floor aspect of a left side defenseman who shoots right and can play their side. Anyway, let's talk to the business side because Calgary was up against it, right? They were up against it. I think they did really well for themselves here considering the circumstances. Oh, yeah. Because it seemed like, I mean, I don't want to say they had no leverage because they had the rights to a really good player that a lot of teams theoretically wanted. So like that is leverage in and of itself.

Well, and the price that the Panthers paid tells you a fair bit about the price that other teams were willing to pay. Like, make no mistake. The Panthers don't give that up. Do you think that's correct? Yes. You think the Pan, you think Bill Zito was talking to Bill?

Doug Armstrong? This makes up the two Armstrongs. Well, I think within the industry anyway, the, because a lot of the rumored trades and, you know, hockey Twitter is notorious for this, are very low ball offers. Oh, yeah.

I was like, we'll give you this third pairing defenseman a second round pick and some random prospect who was good five years ago. Like, I'm not going to report this because I haven't done the work to have multiple. multiple sources on it, but it's like the players that people that I talk to a lot, you know, current executives around the league were of the mind that were on the table.

They were like very much better than those hockey Twitter offers you've scoffed out. Like the player you don't think the team was willing to part with, they were willing to part with. So do you think Brad True Living could have conceivably gotten Jordan Kairu, Jake, neighbors in a first? Well, no, because the cap wouldn't have worked. Right. I think he needed. Well, I probably got like Marco Scandala or some. Even then, even then you're only talking about $5 million coming back.

That's true. That's true. St. Louis would have been cooked. Yeah. I think so, I mean, do I think he could have gotten at least 66% of that? Yes, I do. Including the major piece? Yeah.

Yeah. But I think the other piece coming back would have had to be a much higher salaried guy than Scandella. and thus you get into where it would have been complicated, particularly given the no trade protections that the blues have. Well, that's interesting because I think we're going to have this conversation again at some point with Pierluque Du Bois. But it's a really interesting conversation to have about if you're a team, it's like so telegraphed that a player wants to go to your city to play for your team.

Yeah. And the only catch is either you have to put together a trade package in the present to get them or hope. Or you try to have your cake and eat it to by patiently waiting it out and trying to sign up with zero acquisition cost. Which is tough to do. It's tough. Like why would a player like Matthew Kuchuk have only one destination?

But also want to play next season on a $9 million deal when he could get a $76 million deal and play. Like why would you play a dangerous game for $9 million guaranteed when you could play it for $76 million guaranteed? And then only get seven years. This is exactly what happened. I think about Weber before. I think about the Weber offer sheet scenario, right? And there was, you know, rumors for years, not entirely unfounded that Weber's, you know, private ambition would have been to come to the West Coast of Canada and play in Vancouver. And, you know, I don't think that was entirely unfounded.

The Canucks met with him to discuss an offer sheet that summer before Philadelphia. And they told him the only deal that makes sense, the only deal that actually results in you coming. here is a one year offer sheet. Yeah. That's the only deal that makes sense because if they match it, you become a free agent. And if it's longer than that, they will, there's no way to design it so that it won't be matched. Yeah.

And they explain that to him. And so Weber, Weber is left with, do I sign an extension before the CBA expires, right? Like do I sign an extension on the old rules before September 15th, 2012? Yeah. or, you know, do I pursue the thing that I want most from a hockey fit perspective? Well, guess what's always going to win? Yeah. At that bag.

Yeah. Absolutely. And every player should. 100%. Zero, zero criticism. I'm just saying, this one really reminded me of that. And I really think, like, you, technically the flames had a year to make this move. I don't think they ever considered, as soon as, like, like, earlier this week and it came out, like, he told him he's not going to resign.

Yeah. These are the teams that go to, I don't think there was a zero percent chance that he was going to be playing on a one-year deal for the flames next season regardless. So it's not like they had a year to make a deal. They really had this summer to make a deal. And they obviously filed for arbitration just to buy themselves like a little bit of extra time. Certainly. Because, and you know, that enhanced their trade value. Like I'm sure that that was done with the Kachuk Camp's permission and understanding, right?

because they needed that additional leverage time to give Kachuk the sign-in trade, and this was really an NBA-style sign-and-trade. It was. A fascinating sort of wrinkle, something that really should be happening more. And from what I understand, now, the cap-friendly and correct me if I'm wrong, but they opened up a second buyout window by being the team to sign Matthew Kachuk, as opposed to trading him and his rights. That would be correct.

Which we'll talk about with Sean and, But they also have another Or, they have other arbitration finalists. I guess Florida just doesn't get the second. Right. Florida doesn't get it. Not that they'd be using it.

But okay. Well, they might if they traded for Philippe Myers. Right. Okay. Someone's still doing that. I still believe that that's going to happen. The flames needed to decide

what direction they wanted to go here, right? Because it was a very crossroads moment for their organization. And I've seen a lot of kind of like people being like, all right, well, what does this ultimately they accomplished because this team should be trying to get like young players and futures as opposed to like just kicking the can down for a year potentially right and i think should they well no here's well i don't

think so because even if you remove godrow into kachuk and they'll say you didn't add any player in return in exchange for kachuk as great as those two guys are i think there's still enough good players on this roster that i wouldn't feel confident saying they're going to bottom out and be like a top five pick oh no right so With that logic, they also, let's say they embraced, they were like, listen, we're going to trade Kachukh for purely futures. I legit think, I legit think you lose Kachukh and Goddrae, and they're still an elite defensive team.

Like, I think, I think, even without Hubert O and Weir coming in, I think there was a real chance that they were a playoff team. Yeah. Without, without, you know, just, just if they'd signed, like, league average guy in, like, Evan Rodriguez coming in and, Sunny Mlana. Perfect. That's exactly what I meant.

too. Yeah. Like those guys come in. That's all our best buds. Huh? That's why we're best buds. I saw, I saw Sonny Milano in your eyes.

Did you? Yeah. I was about to say guy who sets up Zegris. Like it was just one of those, um, my, my head's based on it. You bring those guys in. I still think they're, I think they're top half of the league team. Well, yes. But also, let's say they decided.

Let's say they got, they were like, all right, this is going to be tough for us to swallow. Our fans will be unhappy. But the best, the most prudent course of action for. this organization is to just rebuild the hell out of this, do it quickly, do it aggressively, and just suck for a couple years, right? Let's say they decided to do that. Yeah. We just talked about how this market, how few teams there are, they could even absorb contracts realistically. So even if they decided to do that, I saw a lot of, all right, if they don't get anything good back for Kachuk, trade backland, trade to Foley, trade marks or trade TANF. It's like,

which teams are taking on these deals? Like, I don't, like, even if you wanted to accomplish it, I don't think you could facilitate quickly enough to be bad. Look at the Canucks and look how hard it is to change direction. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, unless you have full flexibility financially. Unless you're willing to lose some deals.

Like unless you're willing to, no, no, but the Bjork Strand trade is a perfect example of like, the reality of shedding cap space is that to do it, to do it, you've got to pick your good players and you've got to accept that the return sucks. Yeah.

And then you've got to, you know, take your licks and be damn sure that the reasons you're carving out cap space are worth it. And in Columbus's case, I think it's highly debatable. But, yeah. But for that team to be able to actually keep Patrick Lione's not a small thing. Right. Yeah, we can talk more about Columbus here at the end. It's just it's all part of a piece. No, it is. I mean, I just think if you, you have to accept, it's not like we're going to trade backland for a hall. It's like we're going to trade backland because we need the cap space and we're attaching a second to get it done.

No, but in this case, like, you would agree, right? Like, the worst place is to be directionless in the sense, like, being stuck in the middle. Totally. Whether it's by design or whether it's because you can't get out. And, like, I understand why, even if it's not necessarily a long-term solution, like, I don't know what their plan is with Hubert O, if they even have intentions of extending them. I don't know. We'll see what happens with Uigh or.

Or if he wants to do it. But A, I mean, this buys them more time, right? So they're not out of the woods. No. But now they have more time. to make a decision from a better position of strength, whether it's at the deadline or at some point in the season or later, like they're not rushed to do it.

Here's my take. Yeah. Really quick. What did we just talk about? What is the single piece that teams are willing to not just move for free, but sometimes pay you to move, scoring wingers. Okay. Calgary has a Vezna nominee goaltender, a backup that we like, right?

Vladar is totally fine. Yep. And that Dustin Wolf kid, you know, who was like, like 9 to 4 in the American League last year and better than that in the playoffs. Okay. They have, if not the best defense corps in hockey, the only reason it's not the best defense core in hockey is that they don't employ Kilmaccar and the Colorado Avalanche do. Absolutely.

Like two through six, you take Calgary's group ahead of the Colorado Avalanche, but the distance between McCar and Rasmus Anderson is so big that you probably still give the, but nonetheless, an elite elite defense corps. That's their weight class, right? It's like very much top of the league quality. And then they have a Selky nominee in Elias Lindholm, who's not their best defensive center. If you have those building blocks in a world where Bjork Strand is available for free for a third and a fourth and where a team will pay you an additional 24 year old cost controlled right-handed defenseman to take on Max Patch Ready. Why do you have to move Hubert O at all?

keep him for one season. And if he leaves, that's $6 million in cap space with which to absorb the next patch ready. Right. Like if you have a Daryl Sutter team that can control play and play killer defense and all you need every year is to replace another 60 point winger. Yeah. There's a real chance that you can just do it on a rolling basis at bargain bin prices. And just like, you know, you can have sick style thrifting. The Calgary Flames are set up to thrifting.

drift better than anybody. That's my take on this. I would keep Hubertow. I think the Calgary flame should keep Hubertow for this season. Absolutely. And not even worry about it. Try to resign him. If he's not willing to, no problem. We'll find your replacement. And we might even get paid to take him. Well, and I think, you know, deadline markets can come hit or miss. But, you know, let's say they decide for whatever reason to explore trading him at some point. Yeah. I think we're also underrating how he makes $5.9 million, right, against the cap. And Uighers, 3.25 or something? Yeah, 325.

Right. So 9.15 combined. Like, what we've seen over the past couple years is what doesn't, or what really factors into it is a lot of these contenders are really up against the cap ceiling. So if they can get a guy for cheap that they can slide in without having to move around other money, they'll, they're willing to pay extra in terms of acquisition cost of futures. Like, what have we seen the lightning do time and time again in the last couple years? Multiple firsts for.

You want an extra first because this guy only costs $1.5 million? The amount of people in the business who still react to things like, Brandon Hagel, I've never heard of him. Two firsts? I know. Right? No, but the Barclay-Gadro thing, people were furious when it happened.

Furious. In our trade line preview, we had Hagle going through the lightning for that exact reason. It's like they can have two years of this guy, whatever is AAB is. They'll pay 20 first for that. Yeah. Like, you can't measure the value for that because they don't have to move, or Claren or whatever at the time. Totally.

To bring him in and actually out of the sky, right? I mean, he had no finishing luck in the playoffs, but I thought he played really well. Yeah, excellent player. Okay, so, um, that miss against Toronto aside. That could have been a big deal. Yep.

Okay, we talked, I think, about the business stuff, right? I'm trying to go through my notes. There's just so much to wrap your head around. I love this trade so much because there's so many moving parts. Well, so the player empowerment side can't be ignored, right? The Kachuk paradigm. I think is the biggest. What has a long,

I think the two things that are going to have long tails here is, increasingly we live in a world where wingers are seen as inefficient bets. And even the best ones in the league. Like Max Petriety is a point per game guy. Jonathan Huberto was third in the NHL in scoring. And his inclusion, like, I didn't even factor him in. You know, I had them,

I had them trading Carter Verhegey because I couldn't even fathom that Huberto would be, a piece of actually probably lower value from a panther's perspective than Carter Verhegey like that didn't even occur to me but if you are toward the end of your deal even if you're 27 and have four years of term at a 5.4 number and scored 60 points like scoring wingers are increasingly seen as inefficient bets and that has huge implications for the trade values of an awful lot of players that you and I think are great. Well, that's also why Nino Need a Rider went for what he did.

Because how many, how many wingers got paid four to five million Aavs this summer? Nino? We can probably count on one hand. Yeah, I don't even think we could. Nino, Makayev. Yeah, everyone's going either super cheap or their studs, and you're paying them $8, $9, $10 million.

Can you imagine having signed a big money, middle six winger a week before Bjork Strand goes for a third and a fourth? Like, man, anyone who committed big money to a winger, like up to and including the Pittsburgh Penguins with Brian Rust, those deals were like awful looking within a week. We traded texts over this. How has a smart enterprising rebuilding team, not gotten Jason Zucker, who was one year left,

who was a good player, got a second or whatever to take him, played them in their top six, hope he stays healthy, he'll produce if he does and get another asset at the deadline. While retaining half. Yeah. Instead of signing one of your own for the same.

I know. I do not understand it. I genuinely, it bugs me so much. Well, the JVR one too. I know the JVR cap hits big, but,

and also I don't have as much time for the player. But man, like if you put JVR with a good playmaking center and put them at the net front, you can rehabilitate that value, especially once teams are looking at, you know, JVR at one.

point seven five with him being laundered through a third party everyone's in such a rush to uh to get incrementally better like to i just have something to show your fans like look we're trying yeah we just spend money this guy is gonna be fun to watch right yeah and the goal is to win i can guarantee you that fans of your team will not care whether you finish with 82 points or 86 points at the end of the season yeah they're still going to think you suck yeah so a lot of a lot of these A lot of these signings for these teams or a lot of these like wingers. I guess it's fun. Like I don't know.

You're going to sell some jerseys. Like it's really fundamentally does not change the trajectory of organization. And so it's not a matter of us, analytic guys, like not caring about winning. It's actually the opposite. I care so much about winning that I want to try to win. I think it's hard to explain to some of the more competitive and involved owners in this league.

Yeah. That we're going to maintain cap space. Like free agency is going to come and go. we're not going to make a splash. The draft's going to come and go. We're going to trade back. We're going to trade back and accumulate assets. And then when free agency hits, we're going to just sit on our cap space.

We're going to sit on our cap space for two weeks because it's going to pay off. Yeah. Like that's hard. That can be a hard sell when your owners are competitive, action-oriented hockey fans, you know what I mean, who want to see their team be in the mix and be in the headlines. And they want to hear from their friends about what a great offseason they had. You know? Yeah.

Yeah. But you don't acquire Boychuk and Letty for a song on July 1st. You do it in late August. You know, you don't get Christian Earhoff for free on July 5th. You get him in September. Like you don't get Devon Taves when the offseason starts. You get him at the tail end of the off season right at the end of it. Like that's how you rebuild a blue line. That's how you get Max Patch ready for free. That's how you get Bjork Strand for free. you have to be willing to be patient. I think that's a really tough sell for more teams internally than we realize. Yeah, certainly. Okay, let's do quickly, we're at an hour already. I want to talk about Huberto and Weger in terms of actual law and ice contributions. Because I think people are interested in terms of trying to forecast how they're going to fit on his team, right? What's the gap between Huberto and Gujarra?

Well, I think he's like about as perfect already made facsimile as they could have. Except he's larger. Yeah, I think less like dynamic as a puck carrier But in terms of the offensive zone Like the distribution and making plays for others I think he's just as good a shooter though Like I think he's just as good to finish Yeah, yeah I mean what?

He led the league and assists last year And primary assists Yeah, scored 115 points Now he's we talked about We should say We talked about how Chuck's year was an aberration Like this was all There were a lot of offensive aberrations last year

The whole season was an offensive Of course, right So we should point that out because I think we spent a lot of time talking about like what is Kachak actually is unoffensive. But Hubertow's been pretty consistently. No, of course, of course, of course. Point per game. But this was like a next level for him at age 29, which is like not a thing that's typically something you want to bet on, which is I think why we both, we'd be both worried about being like, let's sign up for seven more years of this at an exorbitant price. He's just so, you know, I know Joe pretty well.

Do you have any funny Huberto's stories that you can share? So many. Anyone. I mean, the main thing about, the main thing to know about Jonathan Huberto is Jonathan Huberto is a little bit rare in NHL circles in that he wants to be the star. You know, I think going to a Canadian market is kind of an interesting place for him to be. Yep. Because I think Huberto is comfortable with attention. And he's a people person.

I think he's going to enjoy the pressure in a way that other players maybe might not. The majority of NHL players might find it. Of course. I think he's going to, I think the bigger the stage, the better, the better sort of the higher his aptitude is. You know, I remember as a PR guy, right, you have to get guys to do things most of the time after they've competed in a game. or they don't want to do them. So you figure out how to be like a lion tamer. Like part of the job is being a lion tamer, right?

Like just like how do I get this guy to yes right away really quickly when there's eight million things going on and I don't have time to debate it? And Huberto was relatively straightforward because I'd just tell him like, oh, you know, man, like, the thing is, is like I can't just get another guy to do it. Like I need a star. He'd be like, okay, well, that's me. I'll do it. I'll do it.

There's not a lot of people that I've worked with that I like more than Joe. Like, Joe was awesome. It's just a pleasure. And his work ethic, when I started working with Jonathan Hubbardo, I think he was probably like a buck 80 in terms of his weight, maybe a buck 85. And two and a half years later, by the time I left the Panthers, he was like 210 pounds. Just like, and probably a better skater for his work, right? Like Jonathan Eubertoe is an absolute killer in terms of the way he works on his game.

I think he's going to be a tremendous fit for Calgary. Well, and I think he's going to get a lot of opportunities to do what he wants to do in Calgary on the ice. Because I think there's a misconception about Daryl Sutter hockey. I think if you watch it kind of casually, it's like, man, this guy's just trapping it up in the neutral zone. This is boring. In reality, when they're at their best. Now, we didn't see a lot of this against Oilers in round two. No, but when it's like the Brown Williams Copatar.

When they're rolling. Yeah. And they're swarming in the neutral zone. I imagine for an offensive player, assuming you can get the buy-in to compete defensively, it's going to be very fun because you get a lot of turnovers and a lot of quick counter attacks where you're all of a sudden on a three-on-two countering back into the offensive zone. And that's what Hebrito wants to do. And so I know there's been a lot of like, how's he going to mesh with Daryl Sutter?

or like, oh, he's an eighth percentile defender or whatever. Like, he's certainly not a good defensive player. But so much, especially for Daryl Sutter defense, is trying. And we saw last regular season, Johnny Godro backchecked really hard. And I imagine it was because he saw the immediate rewards of like, oh, if I do this, I provide a bit of support. All of a sudden, we get a turnover. I get the puck.

Right. That's pretty fun. And then I get the score and I get paid. And I think for Hubert-oh, who's going to be in a contract here, Yeah, motivated as hell. I think I will see. Sutter hockey's perfect for him. The thing about Godreau is Godreau's faster, right?

Godroes is better puck carrier. But a lot of the things that are hallmarks of Sutter hockey, close support, right? Like your teammates are close to you often when you're playing Sutter hockey. Well, his area game, right? His in tight passing game is sort of one of his best attributes. He's better along the wall than Hubert O is because he's a larger human being. Like he's an exceptional battle winner.

There's a lot of aspects of Sutter hockey that I think he's going to be a perfect fit for. Yep. And he's going to play with a last Linholm, I assume, who is actually the perfect player to play with Huberto because defensively, I think he can help him. Offensively, what we saw from the last year where he scored 42 goals,

it was a lot of hanging out in the slot. Yep. And the puck comes, shooting it incredibly quickly and accurately and scoring, right? Yeah. And I think it's going to be a match made in heaven. And I actually think, you know, it's kind of silly to say this about a player who got nominated for the Selke. And I'm with you, like Michael Backland is probably their best defensive forward. Yeah.

Which is not a knock on. But when you look at the, when you look at the defensive models, right? A lot of it is based on, hey, these guys play together. what happens in the minutes we have that they're separate to determine to try to isolate impact right and that's the only way you can do it because if two guys are on the ice at the same time how do you quantify which guy was responsible for a good defensive play which is which is why the godro or sorry which is why the huberto like uh the anti hubertoe heart case now huberto wasn't on my heart ballot i want to be clear here but i thought was a little overheated because it's like oh you mean when florida panthers top six

forwards aren't playing with jonathan huberto their numbers are better because they're playing with barkov Yeah. Like, that's not exactly a slight unheapridae. Anyway, sorry. I digress. That's the thing I noticed because I was like, I'm really curious. It's like, Linholm played 100 minutes without Kuchuk last year. And it was basically random, like, defensive zone shifts with Trevor Lewis and Brett

Richie, where I assume he was out there to take a draw. And then if he didn't win in and he got it out right away, then they were just bleeding shot attempts against because he was out there for that, right? And that's not like a good way to evaluate who's good defensively. So I think a lot of that because it was like, and Matthew Kuch is a good defensive player, but I think a bit of it was blown out of proportion in terms of like he's the best defensive winger or whatever.

It's like he's good. He's good positionally. He's active. But like a lot of the credit, a lot of the credit for their success was actually attributed to his numbers because of that usage. And I think Elias Landholm is a very good

offensive player. And I think playing with like, that's a great spot for Huberto step into. If Huberto can do what he did for Sam Bennett, what can he do for Elias Lindholm? Yeah. Because Elias Lindholmholm. is a better finisher yeah a smarter player yeah also right-handed yeah I mean

Elias Lindholm I hope he brings his appetite into this season because he's gonna eat do you plan that line what was that I don't know I just thought about it um okay I've been going long enough that I want a snack okay we'll talk about weger here quickly and then we'll be out okay yeah no I'm in no rush to leave so I think the perception of him is a bit more nuanced because Hubert it's like it's pretty clear it's like all right this guy is one of the most gifted playmakers defensively what are you going to get for we're weger I don't necessarily think it's like an even an analytical conversation I think it's like it's it's very human to see him make

the occasional mistake that's highly visible that leads to a goal against on a big stage in the postseason where it's like a close game and they lose because of it and to have that be the last thing image in your mind in your evaluation of them right sure like I think that's a very normal thing. My only argument against that is one, well, I guess two, I guess two arguments against that. One, like he handled a puck so much for them. Like his volume of defensive zone touches where he was going to try to make a play

with it, and he always does for better or worse. When you have the puck that often, it's like, that's like when in the heyday of Eric Carlson, it's like he led the league in giveaways. It's like, yeah, he also led the league in puck touches and like attempts to do stuff, zone exits, like passes out of everything. The best players in hockey lead the league in giveaways. They make the most mistakes because they're making the most decisions. Yeah.

And two, I'd argue that everything he does in those intervening moments is so valuable in the modern game that in the aggregate, like, it makes him such a valuable player, right? Like, I can live with an occasional boneheader mistake. And I do think it's a fair criticism. Like, he seems to get a bit spooked under pressure, right? Like, he hears footsteps. I don't think he feels pressure well. Yeah. For a, okay, yeah.

For a top end. Maybe it's actually the opposite extreme then. He should read it better. For a top end player, I think he, so weager's like an energizer bunny in real life too. Like weir is one of those guys who's always kind of moving. The listeners can see what you were doing. Sorry, but I was bouncing. You know, but you everyone has that guy in their office or a guy you used to sit

with in class and he'd be just like, like that's who Uyghur is. I don't think he feels pressure at a high end level in terms of being the first guy back to get a puck and having four checkers on him. And I think that is a valid criticism of his game. I think Weiger became overrated over the last couple of years, you know, one of those guys who was so anonymous and so underrated, and then has sort of become underrated, became overrated, and then had two giveaways, two bad moments,

and now is underrated again. The fact is that he's got a tremendously unique profile because he can play either side, and he's a bona fide top pair guy on either side, and I think he's probably better on his left, but he can easily, easily slide. back over to the right. I view him as more offensive than defensive,

although the defensive numbers are studly. If you're worried about turnovers, just put them with Chris Tannaf. Wow. I think they will. Just put them with Chris. They're not worried about it. Super easy.

You know what will make anyone more comfortable? Playing with Chris Tanov, you're fine. Weiger's top pair quality defensemen, period. Like he's a top pair quality defenseman, tough, smart, skilled, I don't think he feels pressure that well when he has to be the first guy back to get the puck. That's the only thing about his game that leaves me a little bit cold. And even there, it's like it's top four caliber.

It's just not high end. Like it's not the best part of his game. He's going to change how Calgary can play in such a meaningful way. Plus, his ability to play on either the left or the right side means that, you know, what's Calgary's worst case scenario? You lose Chris Tanna for 20 games. well, McKenzie Wigger is your second pair, right D. You want to play them with Rasmus Anderson?

Like, I think that'll work. You want to play them with Noah Hannafin? That'll work. You want to play them with Shillington? I think that'll work. Like, they might need to be sheltered a bit, but I think that'll work. You can play with Zadora. Like, between him and Zedorov being interchangeable on the left and the right side and

Schillington, too, I mean, the amount of versatility, the sort of level of the floor that that defensive group has, there's just no easy night. and then that's not even getting into like Mackey, Valamacky, who I don't like that much, to be honest with you. But like nonetheless, I mean, there's like nine guys on that team. Yeah, if it's a guy they need to put in occasionally as a sixth defense. You're not even worried about it. So I just think Uyghur's impact in Calgary can be far more significant than people realize.

Like I think that's the key piece here. And it's one of the reasons why in the wake of this deal, you know, I know that they still have some issues. I know that ideally you'd find a way to reallocate Sean Monaghan's money to an additional middle six forward and ideally a third line center upgrade, but I find it tough to look at this team and not see a side that should be favored to win the Pacific.

Well, last thing on Uyghur, his transition work is so good. Electric. So, you know, you mentioned earlier how like, if it wasn't Shillington or Anderson, and moving the puck out. The flames were in trouble in the postseason. Out of 102 qualifying defensemen,

I had him Uyghur as 11th in successful zone exits with possession, but defending the rush is where he's actually at his best. So I agree, I think he profiles is more of an offensive defenseman in terms of like sprinting up the ice and trying to make stuff happen with energy.

But he's a monster on the squeeze. And that's like, like, Daryl Sutterer loves that. Like he was getting like Nikita Zedorov and Eric Branson to like step up because if your gaps are so close with your forwards, if you're getting that back pressure, like you can do so, right? Like you don't have to worry about sagging back.

And so he was like top five in terms of forcing turnovers and not allowing injuries. And so the idea of putting him with Chris Tannaev is actually so fascinating to me because in that you would have like one of the handful of best rush defenders in the league with one of the best handful like in zone defenders. Right.

And that is such an awesome, like it's so rare for you to be able to construct a pairing like that. while still having Anderson and Hannafin and then Shillington like roaming around and sheltered third pair of minutes just crushing it every time he's on the ice. Like you're right, that is an electrifying group and also if they eventually

if they decide to keep Uyghur and extend them and trade one of the other guys for a forward help if you want to. Like you can always trade defensemen for forwards. It's much tougher to do the reverse. I wonder if you try and do Uyghur right away. Yeah. You know, I do sort of wonder about how much the pressure of the moment,

particularly when he had the one giveaway against Washington and it became another and another against Tampa Bay how it like snowballed right because it did feel like in that moment he struggled with it a little bit and that's sort of where to the turnover criticism for me is a little different in Uyghur's case than it has been most of the time like it was the same error three times yeah and and so I think it became like this snowball effect and so I think it's It's fair when that happens to a player, even a player who I regard as highly as weaker, to ask some tough questions about, like, did you handle that well? Yeah.

And if you didn't, why not? And what can we do to better support that? But also, I wonder if you can eliminate that pressure to some extent. And obviously, it would be in the Flames' interest anyway to do a deal off the bat. Avoid the contract your pressure. Avoid that new team pressure. Sort of go in with some comfort. If I'm Calgary, even beyond the sort of strategy and asset allocation element, just from getting the most out of the guy side, I wonder if you try and get a long-term deal done almost immediately with him.

I mean, it's funny because we talk about the age bracket of the Panthers. The flames are old. Here the flames. The Hadesdae, Tannep 33, Tannep 33, Marks from 33, Blake Holman 31, Tafoli 30, Alaska, Home 28, Mongeupon, is turning 27, Anifin and Anderson, 26. So not that you all of a sudden want to become the Washington Capitals of a couple years ago and just have like every single old player in the league. Why not? It becomes less of a concern for me to be like, all right, this 29-year-old, what's he going to look like in four years or five years?

It's like, what is our team going to look like in five years? Like, I don't. You got two more years, right? Two more years with TANV. They finished first in goal differential and sixth in point percentage last year. Like I know they're fundamentally going to be different because they just lost two first-line players. But the only team that allowed fewer goals than them was the rest of. Rangers, right? And the Rangers got a historic season from their goaltender, right? I mean,

you literally need to put God himself in net to be better defensively than the Flames were last year. I mean, and now they've added a top pair quality defenseman. I just, the sky feels like the limit for the amount of two one games that the Flames can win. Yeah, and they have, they have options. I'm not sure how much they're willing to spend in terms of real money, but they don't have a ton. I don't think they have a ton of options left. Unless Monahan gets healthy. They buy out Monaghan. But Monaghan's not healthy enough for that.

Yeah. So unless he's like cleared in the next two weeks, I think that Monaghan path is done and your hope is going to have to be that he heals up in time for training camp and can give you something on the third pair and then you trade him and retain salary transaction for a better player.

Yeah, he's only got the one year left. It sucks because the buyout is like literally, would afford them a top six winger in terms of like the cap savings they'd have from it totally well and and the manjipani shillington thing like those guys probably do take up most of the nine that you have left can you dump luchitch's contract can 5.25 cap hit makes one million dollars a season now he's got a 10 team trade list i don't know if arizona's on that i think you can but i think you have to take cap space back so like i think you could clear three million i don't think you could clear five and a half.

Because they do some sort of a deal where they get like Nick Schmaltz back? No. I don't think so because I mean, they should. That would be awesome. No, not one for one. I mean, I think Sutter would. I don't think Shudder would have a ton of time for Nick Schmaltz.

But I just think they need, they need. You're right. They need one more top six winger, preferably like a right winger to get them a bit more pop. If you clear the space for Milano or Rodriguez, that would be perfect. Yeah. Right. Yeah, there's guys available still for sure.

Definitely. But, but yeah, I mean, the Monahan buyout, I'm not expecting that to be an option for the flames at this juncture. The Luchich thing, I think there's a realistic path to that. But I think, you know, like just to give an example, obviously these teams aren't going to trade with one another. This trade would never happen. Edmonton's not going to re-re acquire Milan Luchich, but like could you do Luchich for a player like a Warren Fogle who's got like two years on a worse, smaller contract that would then open up $3 million in space? I think you could do something like that without without even surrendering additional futures, right? Like there's deals like that to be done that would also open up the space you need to go get a middle six

sort of lotto ticket. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know whether it's guys like Dupe or potentially like moving one of those defensively. I think if they wanted to get like really aggressive in terms of improving offensively because they have so much to work with from a defensive foundation, I think they could do it. Me too.

But I think they're probably going to be like they might make another signing, especially they can get Rodriguez for Jeep or something. My view, though, is if you're Calgary, I think you don't worry about the top six and you, and you're sort of trying to do third line improvements over the course of a season. And I don't think you need, like, the Chris Drury model shows us, you know, like, you can do that relatively affordably in season, in my view, you know, like, yeah, there's going to be players like a Vitrono or a Milano that are available. There's going to be not the top center on the market, but the,

third best center on the market who you can get for a conditional pick. They also just acquired a Schwint and a pick, right? So it's like they have additional asset capital to play with. I think you can basically redesign your top, your bottom six in midstream. We saw Colorado basically build that fourth line over the course of the season with the Obakebel waiver claim, the Andrew Cogliano trade, right? I mean, you can't, obviously Tampa Bay rebuilt their third line in midstream too. So again, I think if you're a team like, Calgary. Yeah, it's a good problem to have. Don't worry about it. Just don't worry about it. I think what you're hoping, what you're hoping for is that

Monahan shows enough that you can find a way to either move him or use him. And your plan is basically to manage your cap space carefully and rebuild a third line in, you know, in Meteores as the season goes along. And if they can do that, they're going to be really good. Yeah. I legitimately, like right now, if you go to a Vegas sports book, he'll see them at, you know, 3.2,000. to win the Pacific, which is like just better odds than the LA Kings who are like 3.75 to one. Right. And worse odds than Edmonton and Vegas.

And to me, that's like, you know, I don't want to say, I don't want to be such a degenerate that I call it free money. But if I bet on hockey, which I don't, I would find that extremely tempting. Yeah, their baseline is so high. Because even on nights where they don't have it, like they're just not going to give up. Like, they may win too. What's their worst case scenario defensively? Top five?

Top five? So if you're a top five defensive team, how good do you have to be offensively to make the playoffs? Just like you can be 22nd in goal scored. And they're going to be probably better than that. Yeah, and they're going to have like Huberto, Lindholm and Anderson on the power play, like moving the puck around. I mean, again, the top six, you go Huberto, Manjipani, Lindholm,

backland, to Foley, Coleman. You're telling me that's not an above average top six. It for sure is. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's a big team. All right. We did an hour and 20 minutes on this trade.

I think we needed it, though. I needed to talk it through with you. When it came out on a Friday night, I was having a few beers, and I was like, oh, fuck. Back to work. I go. Because I found out when you texted me, because you texted me to book me for this pot. Yes. And then you texted me and you were like, now we have something to talk about it.

And I was like, oh, I better. And then I told my wife. Yeah. And she was like, Hughie. She's like very upset. Yeah. Well, you call him Joe and she calls him Hubey. Yeah, there you go.

Very telling. So you're going to like this. So this is actually going to be the last show that I'm recording before my break. I pre-recorded a show with our buddy Cams, Your Honor. Nice. We're going to run after this one. He's making his return. He's making his return.

First time you're going to be able to hear him, give off his bad takes. Did he have some bad ones? I don't know. You can listen and judge for yourself. No, he was great. He was great. And I'm looking forward to having him back and speaking public. as opposed to.

Awesome. It's not a text messages. So I'll give you a chance to plug some stuff here on the way out. Sure. You're taking a bit of a break yourself, right? I'm taking a bit of a break. So, yeah, I mean, I've got one more Vancast dropping this summer. So look for that this week at the Athletics Podcast Network.

And then I'll be writing all summer at the Athletic. I'm not really taking time off from writing. I'll still, like, plug away at two, three articles a week for a bit. and then I'll take a few weeks in August off and it'll be great. But yeah, find me at The Athletic. Find me at Thomas Strance on Twitter. And thanks for having me, man. Always a pleasure.

Love it. I'm looking forward to having you back on next season already. Quick plugs for myself. Just please go read and review the show wherever you listen to the P. And after this, listen to the show with the Camps you're on as well. And hopefully that helps hold you over. You enjoy your summer. Our whole friend group on the PTO cast.

Exactly. Who knows? Maybe we'll be able to all three of us talk at one time. That would be great. That'd be really fun. So Thomas, enjoy the rest. The unexpected. Oh, the unexpected goals.

Enjoy the rest of your offseason and we'll chat soon. EpidioCast with Dimitri Filipovich. Follow on Twitter at Dim Philipovich and on SoundCloud at soundcloud. At soundcloud.com slash hockey PDOCast.