The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 64: Would You Rather?

Episode Date: February 23, 2016

Having been blessed with a pair of admittedly less significant, yet still relevant trades to dissect, we take full advantage. In doing so we discuss the bizarrely marginal upgrade by the Sharks given their situation, the Leafs prudent strategy of stockpiling draft picks, and the Canucks lack of foresight. Plus, spinning it forward we look ahead to Monday's deadline with some speculation about popular names that have been bandied about in trade rumours recently. *Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, and can also be streamed from our website. Make sure to not only subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new shows as they’re released, but also take a minute to leave us a glowing review. *This episode is brought to you by Freshbooks, an online accounting service designed to save time and help avoid all of the stresses that come with running a small business. They’re currently offering a free 30-day trial to listeners of our show at Freshbooks.com/PDOcast (just remember to enter “Hockey PDOcast” in the ‘How You Heard About Us’ section). *Also sponsoring today's show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They're giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and joining me is my co-host Travis What's going on, man? I'm doing good. How are you doing today, Dimitri? I'm doing good. We have two trades to discuss, which is which is news. I remember when we recorded at the end of last week, we were like, okay, we've talked about the Wydemen and the concussions for like six straight shows now

so it'd be nice if we have something fresh to talk about and sure enough, they're There are minor trades in the grand scheme of things, but there's still transactions. Was it last year that all the trades happened a week before the trade deadline and then the trade deadline was just like nothing? I don't remember, man. I can't even remember what happened two weeks ago, let alone last year. So I'll take it a little bit more. Yeah, I'm just curious because I don't know.

I feel like it was either last year or two years ago, but regardless, it seems like there's, I don't know, more action before the deadline these days. I sort of understand like that for some teams you kind of want to see. as many games as possible to kind of decide where you're at with this sort of stuff. Like a lot of these teams are kind of stuck in this middle ground and maybe a couple weeks will make a difference between you being like, okay, well, maybe we could actually kind of use a little piece here there to potentially make a run into the playoffs or, nah, we're not actually that good. Let's become sellers.

So for a few teams, it makes sense, but I've always found the notion kind of weird that you'd like wait until this very last moment and then like generally, I feel like that would just lead to panic trades where you're getting. giving up value, just making a trade for the sake of making it because you know that the kind of clock is working against you. So I don't know, like, whenever teams kind of wait and then wait until the last possible minute to do this stuff, I feel like it's generally not a good idea. In a similar vein, I always love how teams, it'll be like two games before the trade deadline, and you'll get the article from a connected local media guy that's, they're going to

see where they're at after these next two games. And it's like, oh, so if they get one point or three, that's going to decide if they're by or seller. And I am, the thing is, I'm sure that some teams operate in this capacity. And it's insane to me, right? Because there's no way, like, a one or two point difference can really skew your playoff probability all that much. And yet, I am sure it drives a lot of decision-making. Yeah.

Well, and there are teams. We'll discuss the Blues, for example, who I feel like their sort of needs and outlook for the rest of this season have changed quite a bit over the past two weeks or so, like where they were at before when they were fully healthy. And now they've lost a couple of key guys. We'll get into that in a little bit. But let's start with this with this Sharks Leafs trade where it was, for those I missed it, it was Roman Polack and Nick Spalling for two future second rounders. So I think they're 2017 and 2018.

And the Leafs, you know, this kind of goes with their philosophy that they've instituted ever since they brought in this new front office where they had like nine picks last year, I believe. And then they have 12 already this year, which is going to be a record. And it makes sense they're kind of stockpiling these assets. So for them, it makes sense. For the sharks, I'm kind of wondering what the rationale was behind this move. I have no idea. This is the most confusing part, right? Because it's not even that they're signaling.

So forget, step away from the actual trade for a second and then realize what they did at a macro level, very high level, what did they do? They used future assets to acquire current assets with the idea being this can help them immediately, right? But how, I mean, what are the odds they can beat both of Anaheim and Los Angeles? I mean, it's got to be less than what, 10%. And that's being extremely kind to San Jose. Yeah, no, for sure.

And it's shaping up that way. They're going to have to go through both those teams pretty much. I mean, it's very likely that they're going to lose in the first round. I mean, let's be honest. They're not better than Anaheim. They're not better than L.A. Even though I had someone unabashedly arguing with me that I was wrong about this and that San Jose was in fact much better than L.A. this year.

And I was like, oh, it must be, I don't know, 2010. But no, it's a very, it's an extremely confusing deal because, again, I don't see how they get any value out of this trade incrementally, at least as it pertains to the playoffs. And the other part of this is the obvious one, which is Nick Spalling isn't good. And Roman Polack's probably a third-parent guy. And if you think those guys combined are worth two second-round picks, I mean, you're dreaming. I mean, come back to planet Earth. Yeah. Well, okay, so it's worth noting that I'm looking at their kind of depth chart for their blue line right now.

And I was thinking, like, what do they really even need Roman Polack? Like, let's say Roman Polack actually was better than he is right now by some certain margin where he's not necessarily the best player in the world. But he's a serviceable guy. And let's pretend that's the case for a second. Like, they, I'm all for having depth and injuries happen. But it's just like Burns, Martin, Mark Edward Vlastic, bronze. Dylan, like, they have a really good blue line. I feel like when I look at that team, that's definitely not like the first thing that comes

to mind. And now they've basically kind of blown their load on this one trade and they're going to sit out for the rest of this deadline. And they could desperately use, I don't know, like a backup goalie considering that Alex Stalach's been a catastrophe and some more depth scoring up front. Like, I don't know, it just seems like a really weird way to kind of allocate their last remaining resources here. So I understand that they're actually, again, I can never remember anytime I read

something, I can never remember who. actually reported this, but I'm pretty sure they're still in the market for a back of gold thunder. But even that said, I mean, that's, it sounds like that's going to be it. So, at least as it pertains to the sharks, the more confusing part, I actually, I don't know which is more confusing because I think Polack is serviceable. But again, like, I don't know if he adds any value eating into the minute of your blue line, because I think San Jose's defense is actually pretty adequate for even a playoff team. The other part of this is, like, what do they see? and Nick Spalling.

I don't get it. I don't think he's good at all. There's no way he's worth the second round pick. Yeah, it's super bizarre, especially, yeah. And like down the middle, they're pretty set, right? Like Thornton, Couture, they can slide Thomas Hurtle there. They have guys like Chris Tierney. Like, it just seems super weird.

He's basically kind of slotting him in as their fourth line center, I guess. Like, whoa, great. That's going to really kind of move the needle for you here. The other part of this, obviously, from the Leif's perspective, is, you know, they fleece San Jose. um they're the team the gms they've traded with like they're not making it a secret are they they like they're they're they're not i don't know i i guess it's that would be unfair to wilson um because he i don't know he's made a series of good moves and he kind of yo-yo's quite a bit like some days i think he's a genius in the other days i'm like i don't know what he's doing so i

can't really get a read for him uh well do you think it's fair that the best to say like one of the best things wilson's done has been to not just like completely panic and sell guys like Thornton and Marlow for like 50 cents on a dollar, especially after that year where they blew the series lead to the Kings. And I mean, even last year when they missed the playoffs, I feel like a lot of GMs would have just been like, okay, well, I got to do something because this clearly isn't working. And like, not necessarily that this current incarnation of the team they have right now is going to, you know, get them to a Stanley Cup. But these guys are at least kind of rebuilding more value for themselves and potentially whether he wants to move them this

summer or not, he'll kind of retain and get better assets instead. Yeah, I mean, I think it's a fair thing. I think it's certainly fair to point out. The really interesting question with San Jose here is I wonder how much of this is financials driven. And the reason why I say that is I think they were one of the teams a couple years ago that was crying about having lost, I was like 20 or $30 million in a season. And, you know, I'm always skeptical of those numbers. But I think their point, during that season was even with playoff revenue that they were getting crushed for whatever reason. And you do wonder though, regardless of how fabricated that $30 million number is, you do wonder if

they do really value making the playoffs this year. And I think they're in prime position to do so. Like I don't think they're going to finish outside of the top three. But maybe they think this is a move that solidifies it. I just, I don't know.

I've been trying to find real justification for the San Jose trade. Doesn't it strike you is bizarre? Like, I'm all for kind of trying to make small adjustments if you think they can actually make a difference for you, kind of on the margins. But, like, from what I'd understand, it would be that Doug Wilson, like, contacted the Leafs and actively sought out Roman Polack and Nick Spawley. I find it surprising that someone from the Leafs front office called him and they

were like, hey, we got these guys. And he's like, all right, well, I guess if you're offering, I'll take them. Like, he must have gone out of his way to make this trade. right? Doesn't that just seem like a very weird thing for someone to do? Yeah, especially Dick Spalling because again, I don't think Nick Spalling is any good. I don't know what his value is. But getting

back to the least respect to for a minute. So I mean, obviously they win the deal. They're going to give just unreal stockpiling of draft picks in the past couple of years. And in fairness to, I think people like to point this out because they hate the Leafs. And this part is true. Blowing up a team is

not difficult, right? Like you can always find a team to take your your veteran players and pay premiums for them. And, you know, that's all fine and well. The hard part is rebuilding it and turning it into a successful team. And if, you know, if you don't believe that, you can look at teams like Edmonton and the other laundry list of franchises who have, you know, finished low in the standings every year. And they can never just seem to mount a surge in the standings for a long period of time because their organization is poorly built. So, you know, I have full confidence in the least front office. I think they're obviously well run, but this is the easy part of it. The other part of this is

how many more bad contracts do you think they can have to? I mean, they're clearly now using the rest of the year. Everyone talks about like, oh, they're going to just be trading half the roster at this point. And we all expect that. But I love how every deal that they orchestrate now, more or less is, okay, we'll take one of your terrible contracts if you throw in, you know, if you sweeten the pot in terms of draft picks. And like they're basically buying draft picks here. Yeah. No, they are for sure. There's no two ways about it. And I think I saw someone tweeted that they're spending like $13 million on their cap space or something for guys that aren't playing for their team. Like that's, that's remarkable that they're doing that. But you know, more

power to them because I think it's kind of saying something to the people that, you know, there's a certain segments of fans and teams that probably think they've got this draft thing figured out. And it's kind of like the appeal to authority where it's like, oh, well, if we're in this position of power, we must know what we're doing. And then you have the Leafs who have guys who are actually kind of got their start in major junior hockey, right? With like Kyle Dubas and they hired Cam Sharon and Rob Pettipus and Mark Hunter. And they have all these guys who you'd think would know a thing or two about the prospect side of things. And they've kind of sort of admitted with all these moves that are like, listen, as much as we know, we really, you know, we're going to be wrong more times than we're right.

So we're going to just try and stockpile as many of these lottery tickets as we can. and hopefully some of them hit, and I'm sure they will. And that's sort of the way you kind of have to do it if you're building a team. Yeah. So, I mean, they're not really making this strategy any secret in any way. I'm just kind of curious how many more of these deals they'll orchestrate in the coming days that have some of the worst contracts in the league coming back. Like, you know what?

The funny thing is I just really want to see how much money they have tied up in guys who will never play a game for them. Like they didn't even make it a secret about it. I think Ratatoura is saying in the, San Jose's HL affiliate, right? Yeah, it's like, yeah, just throw them in. We don't even want them. Just throw them in, and he can report back to your team. And we'll take it on this contrary.

That, to me, is so great. Anything else on this particular trade? We should do one final thing on, and I know we've discussed it in past shows, but as soon as the leaves kind of make a trade like this, the whole discussion about tanking and sort of moral ethics and sports comes up. And I don't know, like,

I just feel like we sort of need to rehash it a little bit just because people still are kind of being incredulous that every time the Leafs official Twitter account tweets out there their lineup for a game everyone just kind of makes these snarky jokes like

oh like this is an actual team ha ha ha like this is an embarrassment like what are they're making a mockery or the league it's like you're missing the force for the trees if you think the Leafs are to blame here or the Sabres when they were doing it it's like the league incentivizes tanking

so it'd be foolish if teams in those positions weren't doing it yeah well I'm just not going down I refuse to go down this hole today. But again, for the one billionth time, if you have a problem with the way it is, blame the draft. There shouldn't be a draft in the NHL. So as soon as you say, oh, the draft is good.

The draft is great. I like how this runs the league. Okay, fine. Then you're going to have some trickle-down effect where you have a myriad issues. And the proposed solutions to remediate tanking, two are so comical, like points accumulated once you're out of the playoffs. And whatever it is, it's going to be, there's just going to be a new strategy, right? So if it's like points accumulated after you're eliminated, that encourages teams to blow it up earlier in the season, right?

Like you want to find a way around it regardless. Yeah, yeah. That's the whole point because the goal will always be to draft in the top spot. And then, of course, if you make it totally random, then, oh, maybe there's no incentive to tanking. But then you don't fix the problem, which is the truly bad teams don't ever improve because it's totally random. how draft picks are out. And then how do you think people are going to react if, you know, how the Kings missed the playoffs by a point or two, and then they get the number one pick and they get

Austin Matthews. And it's like, okay, great. I'm sure people will find a way to kind of be up in arms about that, how it's just unfair that, you know, a team that doesn't need a guy like that gets him all of a sudden. And the other teams who could desperately use them are out of luck. And people are always going to find something to complain about. What's the best team that can get Austin Matthews this year? Oh man, none of the Canadian teams

I don't know, I guess the HABs maybe Like they could conceivably if they got him And then carry Price is healthy next year And they make a few kind of nice moves on the margins They could be What about Winnipeg? Yeah That's assuming that Pab looks not starting 50 games

For them next year I definitely think that they could be a really good team What about Colt? No, I'm just kidding Um Under John Jororella's tootillet Yeah, he'll be traded He'll be traded before he plays in the game

Oh man I heard some good stories good blue jacket stories for another day from a couple different people the past couple weeks that is that is one interesting organization

I'll just leave it at that I'm sure people are gonna love when you tease something like that and then just just look at it it's so you know what though here's the thing about it here's the thing about the jackets anyone who's an ardent fan

of the team and knows the inner workings of that organization likely knows some of the stories to begin with like it's like anytime you have this same people in a front office for an extended period of time and the team is bad and people do

their digging and they find out what is some of the stories that kind of percolate out of there. And I don't know. It's just, it's amazing. That front office is such a catastrophe. It's, I don't know. It's awful. On a related note, have I ever told you the story about how I broke the John Tortorella getting hired by the Canucks story?

I want to hear it. No, I want to hear it, though. So one of my, one of my best friends from high school, was working for the Canucks at the time and like a marketing role and he was kind of walking around the building on a day in summertime and he's like, hey, this is super random

and I don't know if it means anything, but I'm pretty sure I just saw John Tortorella kind of walking in the hallway and I was like, hmm, I'm sure people online would like to hear this and I put it up and then like four hours later they announced that they've come to terms with John Torolla to be their next head coach

and I got a lot of retweets on that and it made me feel good. Good, it should. Look at you. You're like a reporter. No, but I mean, that was one of the greatest moves in Vancouver Canucks history.

I mean, he turned that franchise around and it felt like days. So yeah, the Canucks, and again, the Canucks are looking great under Torterella's rule. This is why you're a broadcasting professional because you've,

you've teased Canucks moves and we will get to them as soon as we do a quick little break here. As you surely heard of the top, sponsoring today's show is FreshBooks, an online service that's designed to help make life easier for small business owners and freelancers like URI. It can do just that by providing tools such as automatically importing expenses from your bank account, or not having to keep hard copies of receipts lying around the house, or maybe even simply composing and firing off an invoice in a matter of a minute, just using their incredibly easy-to-use templates.

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of unrestricted use to all of our listeners, and you don't even have to go through the hassle of entering your credit card to sign up like in most other places. All you have to do is go to freshbooks.com slash PDOCAST and just make sure to enter Hockey P.D.O.cast in the How You heard about a section. And after that, you can immediately start making your life easier today. All right, yeah. So as you mentioned, the Canucks, in the grand

scheme of things, it's a small trade. It's not something that's going to make a huge difference either this year or in the years to come. I don't think, unless, you know, the worst possible scenario happens. But they made a one-for-one swap of prospects, I guess. One of them is definitely a prospect. The other guy, I'm not even sure you could really refer to him as a prospect anymore. It was Marcus Granland for Hunter Schenkerich, and everyone here in Vancouver is obviously kind of freaking out about it just because the deal doesn't really make much sense on the surface. And once you peel it back, peel back a few layers and come to terms with why they made the move, it's even more bizarre.

Well, why they made the move, I read the Benin quote. And it's the stock quote for if you don't have good justification. It's, oh, I don't really have any numbers to support this or any real legitimization to support this deal. so I'm just going to tell you I like the guy's energy and I like his character and that's a great way to know that you've lost the deal I think. There's two main kind of driving forces

from what I can gather and one of them is and this isn't just unique to the Kinex I'm sure this happens with every team out there where John Weiss Broad is their assistant GM and he was with the flames that year where they had the three first rounders and chose to

pass on Shinkarik and clearly weren't big fans of him and they took guys who were worse than Hunter Shinkurik instead. And apparently, you know, he's not a, he's not a Benning guy, he's not a Weisbrood guy. So they had no ties to him. So they were like, okay, whatever, we can part with him. And the second one, which is absolutely mind-blowing is that, and we've heard rumblings about this, that they are legitimately trying to make the playoffs.

And a lot of it probably has to do with ownership kind of forcing their hand. But they viewed this as a move that Marcus Granland, who couldn't even play for the flames this year, really, is going to instantly step in and, fill some sort of Brandon Sutter role and play down the middle for them, which is something that moments after Benning discussed him in his press conference, Bradgerie Living comes out and says, yeah, I'm not sure about Granland actually playing down the middle. I think he's going to be playing on the wing for the Canucks based on stuff I've heard in conversations that have been had. And it was just so contradictory and hilarious. And anyways, they apparently are viewing this as a win now move

where Grandland's going to step right in and kind of help them make a late surgery over the playoffs, which I don't know, I'll just leave that to you and you can discuss that. Well, again, again, when you talk about rent, like, I don't want to say rentals because not every player is a pure rental, right? But you understand my point. When you're trying to say we're acquiring this player to get us over the hump and make the playoffs, I always wonder, like how many wins do they think these players, a guy like Granlin, for example, add to a team in a 30 game stretch. Do they think it's more than one?

And I'm saying one, and I'm being extremely liberal. I am giving him more than the benefit of the doubt. Do they think Granlin could add six goals to this team? And I just, there's no possible way that that could be true. And then it brings you back to the original question is, well, if he's only adding between zero and one wins and one again, being really kind to him, is this deal worth it? Do we want to give up a prospect for this type of player?

Does this actually get us over the hump? And I think the answer is obviously no. I would be hard-pressed to find a person who thinks the answer to that is yes, other than I guess Jim Benning, maybe. Well, you've got at least one guy that thinks the answer is yes. And we don't know for certain if he actually believes that, right? Like, Grantland's not necessarily a rental. He's a 22-year-old, and he was a former second rounder,

and he's had good AHL numbers. It's not necessarily a guy where they're like renting him for a few months and he's going to walk as a free agent. So it's different than that. But it is just, it just reeks of kind of incompetence, right? Where people are up in arms about how teams like the Leafs are tanking, whereas the Canucks are essentially tanking.

They're just not doing it willingly. They're just falling flat on their faces because they have absolutely no idea how to approach roster construction and personnel moves. So I'm actually, now that we're talking, about trade talk and players in the market. The whole, this trade for Vancouver just didn't make a whole lot of sense. And I don't really get it. I don't know how much time we can actually spend on it.

But I'm actually writing something for tomorrow's piece. And I have to bring this up. And I'm going totally off the radar here, but you just kind of jog my memory. But do you remember earlier this season, it was a thing? And it was definitely a thing because I had to go back and remind myself like, oh, this, I remember this actually. actually happening. Do you remember when Jeff Skinner was like more than on the trade block?

Like there was talk about he's just trying to basically dump his contract or a little more than that at most. And do you remember that? That was like an October, November, December thing? I think it's been happening for like at least like a year and a half or maybe even longer. I mean, at least just based on vague stories I've heard, not necessarily, you know, a Bob McKenzie type publicly putting it out there. So, and the reason why I bring this up is if we're talking about like trade pieces,

guys who can legitimately move the needle and maybe they cost a pretty reasonable price. But like, if you're a team and you are all in, you are all in and you are willing to give up real asset or assets for a player, isn't Skinner the exact type of winger you want on your team? Like that, that's a guy who adds wins to your team. I don't understand why, why, and I don't know if this is still true. But outside of his injury history, why would, why would Carolina be cool on him at all. His contract is extremely reasonable. He scores very consistently.

The piece tomorrow kind of highlights that he is like, along with John Tavares and maybe two or three other guys, the most consistently, I don't want to say lethal, but consistent presences in that, in that home plate area where most of your goals

are scored and the guy is just a shot generating machine and like he's your prototypical top six winger and you're really a first line winger. Isn't this the exact type of player you want is if you're a buyer he is i mean i've loved jeff skinner for pretty much since he came into the league he's 23 yeah his his his his his his his rates are always through the roof and uh he he draws a lot of penalties as well and he as he said he generates a ton of shots and there's a lot to like there i do think that we shouldn't necessarily just completely gloss over the the injury

history because and i guess you can i guess you can say this about every single player depending on the severity of the hit but like with him there's a legitimate case that we made that he's like one unfortunate kind of ugly fall or a head in the boards or a shoulder like that connects with him to pretty much like just like never being the same guy again right and and for a while there he was it just took him a while to kind of get back to playing at the speed that he'd been playing at early in his career and I think that it be unreasonable to suggest that concussions weren't a part of that right like just whether it's like a little bit of uneasiness or timidness

kind of just thinking that okay I could be one bad hit away from just never really playing hockey again. So, but it's, as a fan of his, I'm, I'm really happy to see that he's gotten back to being a goal scoring machine. Pretty sure it was like three concussions in a three-year span, which I, again, I'm not a doctor, but that sounds pretty horrible. And they were the bad ones where like he'd be like wobbly knees, barely getting back to the bench too. They weren't like ones where after the fact they were diagnosing it and trying to keep it quiet. Like they were pretty, pretty blatant ones. Yeah. I don't know. And the only reason I bring it up is there's a lot of talk about, you know, Eric Stahl, as we've talked about

on this podcast and like, you know, a couple of the other guys out there. But like, if you're talking about, and I'm going to segue, I'm going to beautifully segue this sentiment, but if you're talking about guys who can really add wins to your team, both now and tomorrow, and they can probably have a not-an-insane cost. And the only reason why I say that is because anytime it's been reported about a Jeff Skinner trade, and this is going back, you know, into this season, but maybe as far back as December, it was never like Carolina's demands or a couple first route picks or whatever. It was more like, yeah, this player's pretty good, but there's a vague reason why Carolina wants to get them off the books. And I'm sure a part of that has to be

injury related, but like that's the exact type of guy I'm targeting if I am okay financially, if I am willing to absorb a bit of injury risk. And I really want a, a, productive winger in my line of he's one and the other one would be did you see the other trade rumor that hit today? No, what was it? So apparently Elliot Friedman

Oh, was it the Nathogadry one? Yeah, I mean, that's pretty curious to me because I felt as though not that you can say any player is untouchable especially in that organization but I mean, I don't even think he was close to untouchable but I felt

like he is a a key piece for that team moving forward. I think Thousand Cadre is really good. I'm not saying he's the most polished defensive player in the league, but like, to me, he's the type of player you build around. Rith, he's not, maybe he's not

a franchise per se player, but he's pretty damn good. And I thought it was curious, not only his name out there, but that a team in St. Louis was linked to him. Yeah, no, that that fit makes a lot of sense. I think that people sort of have a tough time being reasonable with guys that play for the Leafs. They have so much exposure, especially here in Canada.

But Cadre, early in the season, was generating shots like he'd never really had before in his career and just couldn't get any of them to go in. And people were discussing how he'd been changing his game. He'd been shooting more from the outside, Trana, Trina Ray Gorsi, which was hilarious. And he's at a perfectly fine season. I think that if he's your second center, you're doing really well. And I agree. A team like St. Louis, it makes sense for them because we've discussed this where they're in this weird spot that I'm not necessarily sure there's a single move they can do right now within a reason that'll make me feel comfortable with saying okay they have a really good shot here to come out of the west right so you want to bring a guy in that has either term or you have their rafa rights where it's not necessarily just a two month move where you're trying to extract value here it's something where you can bring him back next year and the year after that and and keep trying to get back after it because it's tough like I feel like the Blackhawks are one of the only teams and maybe like the Kings and the Ducks who you can justify being like, I think you should go kind of all in right now for a guy

that has just the rest of this season left on his deal. St. Louis, and you're so right about that. St. Louis, though, is in, they are in probably the weirdest spot of any team in the league, I think, because here's why they have, I don't want to call them like a legitimate Stanley Cup contender, but they're pretty cool. I mean, they're a really good team. That's number one. Number two is the new surround Ken Hitchcock, it's not completely loose, right?

Like, there are playoff expectations that have been failed to have been met for a couple of years now. And you can sense that the seat's not hot, but it's warm, right? Like, that's a thing. Like, St. Louis has pretty high expectations. And the third part is they have very real operational needs. And part of that is the fact that they've kind of had this ugly run of injury luck right now, where they have a few players beat to Petro Angelo, Brian Elliott was hurt just tonight. We were talking about that before we recorded.

They have a hole down the middle if they want to address that. And a player like Nazim Kadri, I mean, there's a lot of ways to go as buyers. But I almost think that that might be the reason why they are big buyers at the deadline, because I don't know that they can just kind of coast as is into the playoffs. Because, I mean, again, they're very possibly be looking at the first round exit. That's the case. Well, especially with Backus as an impending UFA and them, not necessarily being the type of team that can afford to lock him up for, like, he's going to get at least the Ryan Kester contract, right?

If not more, where it's going to be something around like six years and at least six million per. And the way he plays and the tread he has on those tires as he's getting into his 30s now, I would not want to be the team that's on the hook for that. But I mean, he's, he's their captain and he's been there for so long and he's still a productive player. and it's tough for a team that is in a position to contend, at least right there with the other teams in the West, to just be like, all right, we're just going to let one of our best players walk here because we're worried about what it's going to mean three years from now, right? Like, it's a really kind of, it's a lose-lose situation because however they approach it, there's going to be a certain side to it that's going to wind up looking bad on them. So let's assume that they do go to the Nazim Casier route. What's a realistic price for him?

Oh, man, I don't know. I would think it starts with their first round pick. Yes, but I don't see why the Leafs would be necessarily, like, I guess they might just not, I've always thought that the Cadrew rumors were just bizarre because they always seem to involve the Leafs not getting proper value for the type of player that he is at the age that he is, right? Like, it seems super weird that the Leafs would just be like, nah, you know, we don't really need Nazim Kadri. He's, like, in his mid-20s. It just seems like he fits in with their timeline for where they're going to be at in a few years. Yeah, the other thing with that is I also, and again, this kind of gets back to the Toronto point, but I also wonder if they trade cadry and maybe that's, I don't want to say completely unrealistic,

but again, I just don't really understand why they would, but let's assume they do. I mean, at some point they're going to have to get a roster player back, right? If they're gutting, if they're actually gutting it to this degree, like you can't go into the next year with like 17 draft picks and six players on your, active roster and that including Stephen Stamco's like I mean at some point you're going to need to fill out the roster and at some point they're going to run out of players if they if they keep going down this path of flipping guys for for just you know future assets so that's that's the other part is I would assume in an azim cadre trade that might be your exception there where they actually target active roster players but who I but see why would the blues a team that's

bringing azim cadre and presumably to try and help bolster their lineup for a playoff run, also in turn, give back an active roster guy that's worth anything, right? Like, it just seems like it's kind of a lateral move unless they really think that they're upgrading here and kind of swindling the leaves. I think you're heading down the path of the old three-team trade. I just saw one vetoed in the NBA. We almost made it. I had to go to, I had to make that point of reference.

Is it just me or do we rarely see three-team trades in that? Yeah, it's extremely rare. I don't know why, though. I guess it's tough with a cap, right? It's kind of tough to make it work for three different teams. I mean, yeah. But, I mean, you know, the NBA has the soft cap so you can pay the tax. And there's a lot more luxury to kind of move around for a lack of better word.

But yeah, the hard cap definitely kind of suppressed that to some degree. But I don't know. I always thought it was a pretty creative way, especially in a situation like we're talking about here. Like Toronto, I don't think necessarily would trade Nazim Cadery to St. Louis without getting a roster player back. and then St. Louis is in the position where their most valuable assets that they'd be willing to give up are picks. So then you need to come up with some sort of creative triangle where the picks from St. Louis would go to another team, probably a seller, who would then send away one of their roster players to Toronto with Cadre going to St. Louis. I mean, that's the only way I can envision that trade making sense.

Well, I would love to see that happen because that's one of the only possible legitimately exciting things that could happen between now and the deadline. All the other ones are either super telegraphed or just not really all that influential to begin with. So we could put together the package. The Cadreys, Stamcoast, Chatton Kirk package. No, ooh, actually, so this, okay, so Chatton Kirk's in there.

You don't throw Shay Weber in there somehow. Shea Weber gets offered sheeted by the flyers. We talked about, that's my favorite thing probably that we've ever talked about is when we were talking about the flyers like two months ago, we were like, what the fuck would the flyers have done if they had Jay Weber's $150 million on the cap right now? So bad.

By the way, so actually, let's end on that trade rumor. Radco Gudis for two second round picks, or did you hear that one? Well, I mean, Roman Polack just essentially went for two second round picks. So I believe it, but it seems extremely bizarre. And we should say that all kind of shenanigans aside, Goudas has actually been pretty good for the Flyers this year, but yeah, I don't, he's like, he's been, I made a joke on Twitter where he's playing the, are we there yet, suspension game with the department of, yeah. I don't know how you can, I don't know how you can trade for him in good faith right now. Like that, that guy is a, is a walking suspension. Yeah, he is a walking suspension on every shift. And like, I don't think he's a terrible player, but I mean, he just scares me to the point of when I'm watching a Flyers game and I see him going, you know, lining up for a hit. I'm like,

there's a 50-50 chance. He's just going to pull his arm out and just level this guy in the head. And ultimately, it is about 50-50. And honestly, the most perplexing thing right now with the NHL is actually how few times Radh Gaggagutis has been suspended relative to how many times he probably

should have been suspended. I almost feel the NHL feels bad for him because he'd probably be banned for life at this point. Yeah, I mean, especially the last two ones, I think one of them was against the Sabres when he kind of, Felino was in a weird spot, but it was a blowout and it just seemed super unnecessary for him to even try and hit him to begin with. And then the other one against the, I think it was Bobby Farnham against the Devils where he just

like, the puck is heading into the offensive zone and they're all the way back in the Flyers defensive zone. He's like going out of his way to try and check Bobby Farnham. It just seems like so unnecessary, especially for a guy that throws so many kind of legitimately borderline hits for him to be also going out of his way to do ones where the puck is even near to play. I'm glad we wrapped up in Rakagoo. Did we miss any? I think we just did the trade cast. I think we covered every rumor from the past two days. Well, okay, one final one. Um, it's not, I missed one. No, it's not necessarily a new development, but I saw the lad, apparently at some point in time turned down six years, six million per from the Jets, which if true either suggests that he just really doesn't want to play in Winnipeg or he's a crazy person because that seems like a lot of money for Andrew Lad. No, I think he thinks he can get more. And I actually, I would not be surprised if he tested for agency and got more.

Okay. So who, who, if you were running a team, who would you give more money in term to Backus or Lad? It has to be, Backus just purely because he plays down the middle, right? I think it's a lot closer than you think. I don't think it's. But do you think Lad's going to get more than Backus? That seems tough to believe for me. Unless Backus agrees to a team-friendly deal with the Blues, which we have no reason to believe you will.

This might be, we might need to do an entire podcast on who would you rather pay the X amount of money to between Ladd and Backus. I almost think... It's pretty close. It is extremely close. I'll tell you this, I think relative to where their contracts will end up, I think Ladd probably give you a little more of the value. As crazy as it is, I don't, I'm pretty cool on David Backus. I mean, it's, I just think, and I like Backus as a player, but I just think his contract

could go real bad, real fast, and because I just think he's going to be paid a fair amount of money more than Andrew Ladwell. I think his contract could be crazy, Bacchus. Yeah. No, that's, that's definitely possible. I guess, yeah, that's a good point. I'd just take the guy that you can get for cheaper, I guess. Because, dude, this is just a maximum risk of version.

Just give me the cheaper guy. Well, I wouldn't sign either of them to the deal they're probably seeking. So I guess that's the starting point in the discussion. Why doesn't Lad want to go shorter term with higher dollar? Again, I find those deals for those types of players to just be so much more justifiable. It's the big reason why we thought Dustin Bufflin's contract was so good. I'm like, even if he's in the tank by year five, it's extremely unlikely. The first three years will be anything but extremely productive.

Like, that's the exact type of contract. You want to give a 30 tweener, you know, a shorter term deal with more money up front. And like, I don't know, is Andrew Ladd really going to die if it's between, you know, four or six years or something? I just, I don't know. They have ways to make the money work. And if you're a player like Andrew Ladd, you can, so long as the team has the cap space. I mean, I think you could find a lot more interested suitors if you'd be willing to reduce the term. But the fact that he is apparently wanting at least six years, I don't know, it's kind of weird.

I guess I've never been in a position where I'm negotiating a contract that big. So I all due respect to Andrew Ladd. But I don't know, it just seems kind of an odd sticking point because you can get that money back in another way. Yeah, I guess you can. Although we're just casually being like, oh, a couple million dollars. It's nothing to me. It's nothing to me. I don't even feel it.

Yeah, that's true. All right. That was fun. That was a nice little few minutes of would you rather. Tradecast. All right, man. Yeah, hopefully there will be some other stuff that happens the next couple of days in the lead up to the deadline that we'll be able to discuss. I knew we forgot one. All right, we'll save for the next one. What was it?

I'll save for the next one. I can't even do that. It's going to be at least 20 minutes for other discussion right there. Oh, I can't wait for that vote. All right. All right, man. We'll talk soon. All right. online at HockeyPedocast.com. Subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, or follow on Twitter at Dim Filipovich and at Travis Yost.