The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 65: An Inside Look At the Trade Deadline

Episode Date: February 28, 2016

Chris Johnston joins the show on the eve of the NHL trade deadline to discuss how he vets his sources, the process that going into publicly relaying news, and finding a balance between providing opinionated analysis and strictly reporting facts. We also discuss how it made sense for the Rangers to go all-in with the Eric Staal trade, and whether the Ducks will feel the need to keep pace with the moves the Blackhawks have recently made. 0:00 – 1:45 – Intro 01:45 – 8:30 – Working for Sportsnet / Hockey Reporting 8:30 – 14:40 -Reporting Facts vs. Opinion-Based Analysis 14:40 – 19:40 – Rangers Acquire Staal / Trading Picks and going for it 19:40 – 21:45 – Artemi Parnarin / Winning Attracts Good Players 22:45 – 29:00 – Anaheim Ducks 29:00 – 31:20 – Dallas Stars 31:20 – 36;50 – Reimer / Complicated Trades 36:50 – 41:40 – Trades ahead of the deadline / Surprising Trades 41:40 – 42:35 – Outro *Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, and can also be streamed from our website. Make sure to not only subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new shows as they’re released, but also take a minute to leave us a glowing review. *This episode is brought to you by Freshbooks, an online accounting service designed to save time and help avoid all of the stresses that come with running a small business. They’re currently offering a free 30-day trial to listeners of our show at Freshbooks.com/PDOcast (just remember to enter “Hockey PDOcast” in the ‘How You Heard About Us’ section). *Also sponsoring today's show is SeatGeek, which is making it easier than ever before to buy and sell sports and concert tickets. They're giving our listeners a $20 rebate off of their first purchase. All you have to do is download the free SeatGeek app and enter the promo code PDO to get started. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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And joining me is one of my new coworkers, Chris Johnston. Chris, how's it going, man? Good. Glad you got the employee number and you're all signed up on the team. I promise at one point I'll stop, I'll act like I've been there before and stop kind of, you know, being excited about saying that I'm a sports and an employee. But I feel like I deserve at least like a few weeks here to kind of get it all out. I think so.

I mean, look, it's an exciting place to work and really to have a job in today's media industry, I guess, is something we should all treasure. Yeah, no, for sure. Okay. So we're recording this on a Sunday afternoon here in downtown Toronto. And we're going to try and keep the conversation sort of more broad. And I guess we're going to cover like overarching storylines rather than specific trades or rumors just because by the time we post this, it already might have been deemed obsolete. So I kind of want to start off with something that, has to do with your job and how you approach it as someone who reports news and has various sources around the league and kind of stays up to date with everything and people rely upon you to transfer information to them how like around this time of year just like what what is it like i bet it's probably crazy right just having us sort through everything the worst part about it is you just bug everybody so much you know and and you really have to lean on the people that talk to you and that share information openly with you and tell you things maybe that you can't report

right away. So you rely on those relationships and I think you strain them pretty hard in the couple weeks leading up to the deadline. And July 1st, although that's maybe even a little bit less because I don't think the attention on it is quite the same. But that's all it is. I mean, I'm not at the point myself where, you know, once you get into the Holy Trinity of the guys that do this, I think that occasionally some news comes to them that they're not even seeking out. But I think I'd beg to differ. I think you're definitely up there on the, on the, I mean, I like to think I'm trending in the right direction. But, you know, some of this is just time, you know. Right. And someone like Bob McKenzie, who's so well respected is, you know, he's had a lot longer time to develop and nurture relationships. Right. And I have. And, you know, some of the people that I'm friends with now might be GMs one day.

You know what I mean? And I'm sure that's how it worked for Bob. I haven't asked them about that. But I just think that it is a process. And but kind of to get back to my own process is that no one, it's been maybe. handful of times ever where I've gotten a piece of information just sent to me that this has happened and no one knows about it yet. So for the most part, a lot of what I'm doing is trying to, like that old Wayne Gretzky

quote, like see where the puck's going, anticipate what moves they're coming and then keep asking people and try to get a sense of what's going on and you try to get lucky every once in a while to break a story. Well, so I think you have a pretty good successor. Obviously everyone is occasionally going to be led astray for whatever reason. in case you're getting wrong information or something like that. But like just, I'm sure you have guys that you sort of you have good relationships with where if they tell you something you know it's factual or at least at the time.

But like what's the process between getting a piece of information and putting it out in the public sphere? Like do you try to maybe get like two different people that can corroborate the same piece of information? Or like do you like how do you vet it? Like I don't want to, you know, you don't want to spill all your secrets, of course, because I don't want everyone else trying to do your job for you. But like what sort of goes into that, especially at this time of year? For me, it has to be too. Right.

Because every person who tells you something could be, have an agenda behind it. Right. And so you have to like, you know, there's agents, there's teams. And if we're talking trades, there's two teams. There's the NHL which gets involved in trades. There's the NHLPA. There's lots of different people that are privy to the information you need. Right.

And I feel like for me, I don't want to. have a batting average at this. Like, I don't want to hit 500, even though that's great in baseball. Right. I don't think that's great if you do my job. Right. And, you know, you just don't want to be wrong, really. You don't guess and you don't take what one person says and as total gospel, even the people you really trust, although, you know, over time, you do start to realize who you can kind of trust rather implicitly and not. And, you know, really what I think we're trying to do, like, It's like the beat writers that go to, that cover one team. They just go to practice every single day and watch it and then wait for something to be different.

Like someone's the way they do something or the way someone's using the lineup or if they're in the dressing room, like the way certain player always acts that it changes. Right. And then you figure out that something's going on there. So like to me it's about keeping your conversation about hockey going with as many people involved in the league and with teams and with players. Right. And look for the when the conversation changes a little bit, the tone changes. And then you just got to nail it down.

But anyway, it's a tough game. I think that far more now, I think everyone in general, I hate to admit it, but I think journalistic standards have probably slipped. And social media partly drives that. Just, I mean, there's more desire for information. Well, especially, like, it could be very easy to sort of get caught up in how quickly you're relaying that information, right? Like, especially with, like, the Twitter, it's like, if you generally want to be one of the first people that gets it out there, because, you know, then gets more attention and recognition for the job you're doing,

as opposed to if you're just parroting what everyone's already been saying for the past half an hour online, right? So it's kind of tough. I can see how, like, it be maybe sometimes a little tricky to kind of find that balance where you want to make sure you're getting the information right, but also doing it in a prompt enough manner where people aren't scooping you all the time. Well, I think the value that, I mean, let's face it, I should get it out there. You would love to be first on every single story. I mean, that's still valuable, but I think it has much less value now than it once did. And really, I think the goal is, you.

is to be able to explain why things happen. Right. And some of that is analysis, but, you know, I leave that to the analyst, too. Right. It's more about explaining, you know, what's been going on in a certain team and what their front office was thinking, maybe other players they were looking at and that forced them to go there. And, you know, I think that that becomes where you can have some value because it's not,

I mean, just getting the transactions, like people forget. I mean, we all know who's really good at this. But at the end of, you know, the deadline, I'm not going to probably be able to tell you which individual guy, unless there's someone who really has an awesome day, own the day. But, I mean, really, I think it's about understanding and communicating to people why things happen. Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I think, wait, is there like a fake Chris Johnston Twitter account? Have you reached that level yet? Is there a Chris with two Ss or something? Not that I'm aware of. I mean, there's a few people out there that like to scream at me on Twitter.

No one's pretending to be me. So you brought up an interesting point there about the analysis component of your job. and I think that's sort of an interesting balance in and of itself where you obviously, I mean, it's human nature to have opinions on stuff and you've been recovering this sport and following it and been a fan of it for so long that, you know, you have certain ways you approach thinking about the game and stuff like that. But you don't really, I imagine for someone with your job, you don't really want to be too opinionated because then maybe that might rub some people the wrong way. Like sometimes you kind of just want to actually report factual information where people can't really

disagree. But it's like, this is a fact that happened. Whereas opposed to like someone like myself, I don't really have that sort of a reputation, I guess, or I just have a different job title. So I can, you know, crush a player or a team if I think it's necessary without worrying about, oh, crap, if I, even if it's deserved, if I say this player sucks or this team's doing a horrible job and assembling their lineup, next time I try to talk to them for information, they're going to be like, hey, like, we don't, we don't like you. Why would I give it to you? I'll pass it along to some other guy. Like, I don't know, do you, like, is that something that consciously goes through your head, or is it just, you've been doing it for long

enough where it's kind of become second nature where you, you've already found that balance? It's, for me, it comes naturally because I'm just, I'm not inclined. Right. I don't see the world in black and white in general. Right. So for me, it's not a challenge, but I think that if you were someone who's highly opinionated on everything, and, and there's tons of value and tons of positions for those type of people, but I would think being a straight news gather wouldn't be one of them. Right. For the reasons you mentioned, I mean, I'm going to tick people off and have, and you hear

about it. But at the end of the day that the people I deal with, I want them to think I'm fair and that I'm not taking shots, I'm not, you know, that I'm not going out of my way to make anybody look bad. It's more about, again, trying to understand what they're doing, what they're seeing. But you still have to have opinions. I mean, just because someone tells me something, I don't repeat it on a radio interview, say, because I think that makes me look dumb.

if I don't have a brain involved in this to analyze, you know, what's gone on. So there is an element of that. I mean, for you, it would maybe be tougher. I mean, it's not to say you can't get some news. Right. But to do it every day and have it be the primary focus of your career, which it's become for me. Right. I think that that would be a tough proposition if you were inclined to really want to criticize people.

Yeah. No, I always, I've come, I've sort of seen that firsthand being in locker rooms and stuff like that where you can kind of see why, beat reporters sometimes or whether it's like the broadcast team of a particular team would be less inclined to uh sometimes it come across as homers and and people get on their case about it but i can definitely see like if you're interacting with all the same people every day you don't really want to be making a habit of uh of saying bad stuff about even if it is warranted right you try to spin it in a in a delicate way where they're not going to get offended and they're going to keep giving you the information that you need to do your job well the hardest job i think in this league would be to be a

beat writer of a really small market team and a place, you know, there's a few places around the H.O. where there's literally one writer essentially covering the team because then any crap you raise, it's you. Like, it's all you. I mean, I've worked in Toronto my whole career. And so, you know, there's always something along the leaves. But I feel like they have a much thicker skin with everything, just because there's volume everywhere. So I don't feel like what I, and I do cover the leaves, like proportionally a lot more than the rest of the teams in the league. Like, I don't feel inhibited in what I can say or the opinions I give because there isn't a thin skin there. But I know there's quite a few organizations around the league that pay attention what's said

about them. And, you know, if you were like Jeremy Rutherford in St. Louis, he's the only guy there every day. Jeremy once told me a story that he messed up in a, he wrote like his typical game report and he said it after, you know, so-and-so gave away the puck on this goal. And he got a text from the player like within half an hour. It was like, no, it wasn't me. It was him. And But like he's getting corrected by the players, whereas especially in my early years, like there was years there where no leaves player and would know my name in the jockey room.

I mean, as I've been around more, that's not the case so much. But I'm just saying you're almost anonymous to do even if you're in the room asking questions. So there's different types of jobs. I just think it'd be so hard to push the envelope in those smaller markets. And you rely on that team for everything.

Right. It's your job. Your access on like the days off. Like, you know, because now in the CBA, each team gets four days off mandated per month. But these guys that go on the road, I think some of the teams will give them an interview on that day or two just to help make their job easier.

It's small stuff like that, which I realize the wider public doesn't care about, but you become slightly indebted to them because they're looking after you and to some degree you're looking after them. So that's a job I wouldn't want to do and I think it would be very difficult to do because you don't want to feel like you're not saying what you believe.

I mean, at the end of the day, I stand by everything I say and write. I mean, I believe it. If I say it, I can be wrong. Yeah. But I don't, like, I don't lie about a player because his agent is someone I feel like I will favor to. I just never done that. Right.

And we're not going to name any names, but you can definitely kind of, people aren't stupid. You can tell if someone is saying something that, you know, they've been prompted to say by whether it's a player or an agent or an executive or someone just doing them a favor thinking, okay, well, if I do this for them now, maybe I'll get a scoop later down the road. And it's nice to hear that you're not taking those shortcuts. Because I'm sure it could be tempting sometimes. I can see how you could fall down that rabbit hole. In a way, but it's sort of like any short-term success. Like, I just wouldn't find it that gratifying. And I think at the end of the day, like, I know we're just talking about it.

Like, we only cover hockey. It's not that important. But like what you stand for in your life is important. And I just think you want to, for someone like me, it's important that people respect that I'm honest when I give an opinion on hockey. And when I call someone who works for a team or if I talk to a player in a dressing room, I'm just up front about what I, what I want to know and what I'm interested in. I just, playing games in the short term,

you can win, but I don't think you can build a long career and be respected if you do that stuff. Yeah, I agree. Okay, let's try to get into some actual specific NHL talk without, without winding up looking like idiots later after we get all of the news horribly wrong. But we just got news that the Rangers acquired Eric Stahl, which is, I think probably, I guess, maybe the second most notable trade of this past week after the Andrew Ladd one, I'd say. Yeah, I'd say so. So I think the Rangers fall into a bucket of, I think there's like, you could realistically split the 30 NHL teams into maybe five buckets of like six teams, like based on sort of

the position they're in and how they'd classify themselves at this deadline. And the Rangers are one of these teams where they're sort of committed to this season. Like, I don't think they're one of the best couple teams in the league, but you could definitely see them making a lot of noise in the playoffs just. because of Lundquist and because they can, you know, they have a pretty deep lineup. They can roll their lines without much drop off when you get to the third, fourth line. And I think that out east, it's pretty wide open. The capitals have been running away with it a little bit here.

But come playoffs, I think there's probably five or six teams there that you can see conceivably see representing the east. So I think the Rangers are definitely one of those teams. And they're cap situations a mess. I mean, they have a lot of things to iron out this summer. But bringing in Eric Stahl seemed like a little bit of a no-brainer just because he will be off the books and it's sort of a potential shot in the arm that could help put them over the top in the playoffs, right? Right. And there's a real pressure there because of Hendrik Lundquist. I mean,

he's committed long term to the organization. He's still an elite goaltender. And I think they really want to win when he's there. I mean, obviously they win. But I think that there's more pressure to forget that they only have five draft picks now coming this June and not the first until round three. I mean, this is where the penguins started to get in trouble. And to me, it was justifiable. I mean, we could go back and look at the trades we didn't like. But like Ray Shiro had two-generational centermen and some other pretty good players there. I mean, every year he had to try to win. But he traded away all his draft picks. And his time went along, and especially now that Crosby and Melkin don't have the same impact on the game, I mean, they're still doing well.

There's just not a lot there. And I don't know that there's a shortcut really to get it back on. That's where the Rangers are headed. I mean, eventually that's where the Blackhawks are headed too. But, you know, I understand this deal. I mean, I'll be. I mean, be interesting to see. I mean, Stahl's kind of been used as a winger a lot lately, but if he lines up at center and they have Brassard and step on, maybe him as their third line center, I mean, that's pretty good for the East. And I agree with you. I mean, everyone assumes the caps are going to walk to it. Right. I think it's pretty open. The playoffs always have a surprise, right? And there's some voodoo there. Like, the Rangers, like last year the Rangers shouldn't have beat

the caps. And they just, they are in their heads a little bit. So, I mean, I get it. You got to go for it. If you're in the east especially, like the West, it's a different proposition. Because even if you're one of those teams that's almost there, I don't think you can lie to. You shouldn't be lying to yourself behind closed doors about where you're at. Well, I mean, yeah, I can see how it would be tough to sort of take a step back and objectively evaluate yourself, right? Like, you'd always like to be optimistic about your chances and being like, talking yourself and it's like, oh, well, if these three things all happen, we could possibly get our foot in the door. But I think with the Rangers, like, they sort of made this

decision when they decided that they weren't going to trade Keith Yandel, right? Because there was a lot of talk there where they were going to try and recoup assets and try and replenish some of those picks that they have traded away in years past. And they just decided like, listen, we were going for it this year. And when they made that decision to keep the handle, they're pretty much committed. So I don't see like, it's always tough to give away a couple second rounders and a prospect and stuff like that. You don't want to get into the business of doing that just because you're trending that way. But at the same time, if there's one team where it makes sense, they do that, it's probably the Rangers. For sure.

I'm trying to think if there's another... I mean, Pittsburgh could be another example. They're in a cap mess, too. But I kind of understand if you're Jim Rutherford, and they kind of have different moves. Some of them you like and some of them you don't. But I understand why you've got to go for it. I mean, unless you get to the point where you're ready

to trade one or both of your star-setterman, you sort of have to be all in, you know what I mean? And look at the king... I think the kings are an example of this, where you look at some of their moves and you go, hmm, I wonder if Dean Lombardi and Dary and Daryl Sutter here are looking at this thinking, well, if we get another, let's say, two cups in the next three or four years with this, with this

core, we can ride off into the sunset and, uh, you know, this will be someone else's problem. Because you can definitely see how the Kings, like five years from now, uh, might not be as successful a team as they currently are, right? Like, they're going to be in like the position of Leafster right now where they're like trying to just trade their contracts and get draft picks and it's going to be ugly and long rebuild. But if they have like four cups during this sort of, uh, dynasty here, it's, no one's going to end with two.

Yeah, it's pretty good. It's like, it's going to be better than. most. And, you know, they've been to the Western Conference Final another year they didn't win. I mean, I get it. Same with Stan Bowman. Look. Right. I mean, the Blackhawks have, are going to have no prospects, essentially. But, I mean, if they were, like, three cups, they went four. Right. I mean, we're getting a really special territory, like, historically in a league, let alone with everything in the salary cap that they've had to deal with in juggles. Well, I think there is sort of an effect, which you can't necessarily quantify, but, like,

you look at how the Blackhawks were able to get a guy like Rettami. Pernar in this summer and he's even been on the record saying a lot of couple teams at least were pursuing his services and he wanted to play for the blackhawks and I imagine a lot of that had to do with the success they've had in the past few years right so if you keep winning and keep doing having long playoff runs you could potentially get college free agents and and these guys coming over from Europe and where you're not spending draft picks but just because you're sort of being rewarded for your for your winning culture right like right right so you know what's interesting about guys like that in the past I think they wouldn't assign with the big teams because

they needed a place to play and they were worried they wouldn't crack the lineup. The Blackhawks, they know have to play them because they make relatively little money and they make a lot of sense on the cap with how good they are. Right. So like in the past, you would expect, say, like the Leafs or the Flange or these teams that, you know, aren't contending to win that they would get all those guys just because they could say, hey, man, you're in the top six and we guarantee it. But now the Blackhawks can make that guarantee.

And that's, I mean, now they're just like, that's not fair almost. I mean, I guess the one trigger with him is he's going to, of his performance bonuses and he's going to, you know, he's going to make 2.7 million extra dollars than he would have as a result of being a top 10 score in the league. And that's going to hurt the Blackhawks in some ways. And, you know, I guess you just, you take that because I think yeah. Because you got a top 10 score in the league for nothing. I think he told them before the season, this is going to happen. You're going to have to pay a little bit extra for it. I think they'd be okay with that. Right. I mean, they're upset about the John and Taves won. And I actually

get it because that came at the end of their first cup run. But the Kahn Smite Trophy is voted on by a panel of writers. So, I mean, and I'm not crapping on the writers, and I'm one of them, and I voted in all these awards the last 10 or 12 years, but it's like a small group of writers that messed up their cap that year, because by John and Taves winning, in his entry-level contract, it was a million and a half extra on their cap that they weren't necessarily planning on, and then they had to get rid of a player. So I can understand the frustration that one. At least this is an objective that it doesn't involve someone's opinion. You know what I mean? He's putting up points. I mean, you got to pay him. Yeah.

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I think a few other teams that might fall into that kind of committed to this season and trying to go all in and see if they can make a run are the stars and the ducks out west. I think even particularly the Ducks, because they have sort of an uncertain summer coming up here where there you have four guys that have performed really well this year that are RFAs and are going to see noticeable optics and pay, especially with guys like Lynn Holme, Vatten, and where they're on their ELC right now, and I'm sure they're going to be making over $4 million at least next season, right? And Frederick Anderson, too, has been an elite performer.

And Rokar and Raquel also is probably going to have, like, what, 40, 50 points for them this year playing on their second line. Like, it's one of those things where they're going to have to reward some of these guys, which is a good problem to have. But I look at them and think, okay, the Blackhawks are pretty clearly made a statement here shoring up much of their needs by, they brought in basically three guys to play on the wing. And Taze was playing for a while with guys like Ryan Garbet and then Richard Panic

and Andrew Shaw has been like stapled to his hip all year. And now suddenly you bring in Lad, Waste, Fleishman, and they're a much deeper team. And it's pretty clear that they're like very serious about trying to repeat as champions. And the Kings are obviously a really good team themselves. So I think about the ducks where they've been so close the past two years to kind of getting over that hurdle and whether they might be likely to,

I don't know if going all in is necessarily the right term because I don't know even know what that move would be given this current climate and who's available. But I'm wondering if like they might be, less likely to just sit on their hands and be like, we like our team right now, even though they've been playing really well. Well, this is the part of the conversation that there's no way to not date it slightly. So as we're speaking on Sunday afternoon, they haven't made any deals at the deadline. But I did have a conversation with Bob Murray, the GM the other day, and he openly admits

he's completely torn. Right. Because he feels that in the past, he's been a bit too aggressive with the tinkering. He's done with the roster. And he thinks that that has some aspect in their slow start this year. Right. And, but for all the reasons you've just mentioned, he, he recognizes he's probably not going to keep all four RFAs. He's got a fairly aging core as well of guys on meaty contracts.

Like, this is clearly their window. And so at the exact moment, he says he's worked really hard to be more patient. Right. Like, it's probably a good time for him not to be patient, really. I mean, and, you know, there's players, there's lots of guys out there that I could see making sense. But, you know, the price has so far been pretty high to go. acquire those guys. I mean, he's going to make some move, but the old Bob Murray would have been like all in on Andrew Ladd, for example, I think. And, you know, they didn't get that involved here.

They didn't want to get anywhere near first rounders and all that stuff. Right. Some of the good prospects they have. So it's a kind of a weird time for that organization. And, you know, Bob said, because he's a former NHO player, he said, it's taking me a long time where I don't think like a player. Like he was so reactive all the time and impulsive and always just wanted to be in there doing something, whereas now I think he's trying to be a bit more removed. And, you know, let's face it, the Ducks have been the best team in the league since Christmas time, give or take. And if he doesn't do anything a consequence, they still have a pretty good shot. But I guarantee you right now, still about 24 hours from the deadline, he is, it's killing him. I guarantee you just,

I could already hear his voice on Thursday or Friday this week, let alone now that we're this close to the actual deadline itself. Well, I'm sure the position he doesn't want to be in is come like late May, they lose in seven, games, the Blackhawks are Kings again. And he's like, oh, if I had just made that one trade, we might have had a different outcome here. This is the whole reason we have a deadline, right? I mean, everyone makes fun of it every year. Like, what's going to be left for the show and all this stuff? But there are always a lot of moves and a lot of dumb moves. But it's because occasionally those moves do work. And so there's always that kind of second guessing that goes on.

And, you know, a team like the Ducks, like they're a budget team. The playoff dates are good for the owner. There's a lot of factors that go into this thing. And, you know, realistically, even if we just imagine the ducks a year from now at this time, they're likely not going to be as good as they are today. Like, they're not going to have as good a chance to win. Like, this is arguably the best chance since, I mean, last year going to Game 7 of the Western Final was pretty good. But it's, this is as good as it gets probably for Bob Murray in his job with the Ducks. And so, yeah, I mean, A, I'm sure he's been working the phone's like crazy, but it's hard to know what to do because you don't want to mortgage too much of the future,

but then you do kind of want to do it. Well, you get so many chances to win, you know? Yeah, no, that's true. Well,

I mean, you look at the guys available and I don't really even see a guy, at least expiring deals. There might be someone with term left where you could be like, okay, this could be an interesting player here. But especially for the ducks, I feel like they would be even more likely to bring in a rental just because

their summer is so uncertain that they probably don't want to latch on to another contract that'll muddy those waters even more this summer. they'd like to kind of gall in this year, try and see if they can win a cup and if not recalibrate in the summer. But I don't see any of those forwards, right? Like they don't, they're not necessarily in the market for a defense when I feel like they're looking for someone who can help them score some goals because they've just been so bad at converting a lot of these shots, right? And we think that eventually kind of they're going to regress back to converting more of those goals. But it's pretty clear they made some sort of stylistic change their game where they've embraced more of a Kings type of approach where they're kind of bogging down the game in the neutral zone. and just suffocating other teams and understanding the fact that, listen,

we might score two goals on 35 shots tonight, but the other team's going to score one, so we're going to be good regardless. Yeah, they're trying to be boring. Right. And actually, they've scored a fair bit during this run. Well, they have a lot of talent. I mean, it makes sense. But they plan on night.

It's funny, Bob, was defense wins championships, every sport. He said, I'm getting worried now that we think we're going to score five every night. I mean, it's funny. Working for a team would be a great job. Even for me, it's sort of like a secret dream. But, man, it's got to be stressful a time. watching all this stuff. And, you know, I think that he's probably, in fact, I know,

he's worried about what he does with those RFAs. So, you know, they were in on Druand. They might still get there. I don't see it. But, like, they're trying to set themselves up to start reloading with more the future in mind than just this year or two. Yeah. But, you know, I would guess he's just going to go with what he has

and just hope this year they win one more game when they get a chance to. Okay, so you said defense wins championships. What do we think the stars are going to do? It feels like they've been sort of linked to Dan Ham Hughes, and by the time we post this, as you said, it might have already, might be announced, who knows. But it seems like they're in the, they realize that they have a really good team here.

And they have a lot of things going for them. But they're also, I believe, in like the bottom five, if not bottom five, definitely bottom 10 in terms of goals. They've been giving up and save percentage. And it feels like they could desperately use someone a bit more reliable on the back end to eat some minutes and kind of help spread the wealth there. I don't really see very many names available. Hambeus is one, but a lot of other guys seem like those sort of prototypical kind of quote-unquote stay-at-home defensemen that are going to kill penalties and block shots.

But I don't, I feel like what makes the stars such an intriguing team and the successful one is sort of the style they play where it's this kind of gambling. Like, let's go for it and let us try and score more goals than other team. And I don't really think they want to get away from that too much by bringing in all these slower, more plotting guys to try and iron that out. So I don't know. Like, we're looking at their team. What do you think is a reasonable approach for them? Well, they don't want to win 2-1. Right.

Well, I mean, maybe secretly they do, but they don't have a team to win 2-1 very often. And the biggest issue they have is that they committed more money to goaltending than any team in the league. And those guys haven't given them good enough goal-tending. And, you know, I don't see them making a deal at the deadline for another goalie. Like, that doesn't – it would make sense in theory. I don't think it makes sense in reality. No.

And that probably is something they have to address in the summer. So, D, you know, the Ham-use thing, I just think it's an ideal fit for what they're trying to do. I mean, the cost, I don't think it'll be too great. I mean, significant enough. But it's a blue-line move that they need. But there's just, there's a real paucity of there's just not a lot of guys at there that we could sit here and say they should go trade for. Because most of the players, I think, that they could use aren't getting traded, basically. But, you know, the blue line makes sense for them.

I think you just roll the dice a little bit. I mean, I just don't see them win the cup at this point. But they're so good. I mean, they're fun to watch. Right. You almost want them to have success selfishly just because maybe it'll have other teams want to play that way. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I think they're good for the sport. But it's got to be defense where they improve. I don't see any real need for them. Well, you look at the price the sharks play for James Rimer, for example. And it's like, I bet there's stars fans out there. They're like, we couldn't have really given up. like a fourth round pick to bring in James. It brings up an interesting point that I've been thinking about the past few days

where, and you can probably speak to this better than I can. But fans generally look at these trades in a vacuum and go, oh, why didn't my GM pay this price? Like, it's not, and I always think, like, it's not necessarily that cut and dry where there's all these, like, interpersonal relationships and conversations that are being had for weeks or days or whatever. And I don't think, like, the Leafs were like, hey, to all of the 29 teams, James Ryan,

is available for a fourth round pick first come first serve right like it's it's one of those things where i don't i can't i don't know if the stars were even in on james rimer they probably weren't because as you said they sort of are already committed to these two goalies with big price tags but it's just like i think fans can generally get carried away a little bit by thinking like every move that happens is an indictment against what their gm either got for a similar player or didn't do in that regard and i think that uh it's not always that simple it certainly isn't and with the rhymer thing i mean that they made the trade a few days before with Nick's balling and Roman Polack. And I think this was all kind of sort of two trades in the end, but it's probably one big trade in terms of conversations that were happening there.

And, you know, the Rimer could work actually. If the stars are willing to send one of their goalies here, that's the only way it works. You don't want to get in any situation where you have three goalies ever. I mean, that's always bad news. It never works out. It's always kind of ugly and awkward and even just practice and sort of practical things. become more difficult. But, you know, that would have been a bold move, but I would have supported it, depending on,

assuming it was a similar kind of price, and you sub-out Alex Steylock and say, Ante-Niamy is the one coming. I mean, that would have made some sense to me. But clearly, I think they're just going to stick with those guys as my sense in what's going on in Dallas. But this summer, especially if it doesn't work out, I think that they need to address that position in particular. Because they've got a, I mean, look, they've got a great team. They're pretty, they're well situated to the cap. They got young players to come in.

I mean, I don't, there's no reason they can't be good for a number of years here. Well, I think one thing we've gathered so far in the past week is that it's a pretty good time to be a seller. Just because there aren't, they don't seem to be that many teams that are that overtly selling, right? Like, I think that the hurricanes are a perfect example of this where you could have easily seen them being like, we're sort of in this race here. We're a few points out in the metro and we're fighting for a while. wild card spot and we've been playing really well recently and we have a young team and our attendance numbers are low like we definitely benefit from having even if we don't make the playoffs just playing

playing competitive games here in march and april but at the same time they probably looked at some of these halls that teams are getting like mike weber going for a third round pick and roman polack going for two seconds they're like well hell we can't really reconcile keeping a guy like eric stall just because it's such a benefit to our system especially a team that isn't going to be in on big name free agents every summer. If they can get a bunch of cheap assets and picks and prospects and turn that into players, they can keep at cost control prices, right? Like, I feel like the market has definitely been divided.

And if you can sell, you probably should just because you're going to get a pretty good reward. Even teams, I mean, the hurricanes could still make the playoffs. I mean, I'm not saying it's likely. I'm not saying Eric Stahl just like a little. But like, I think it makes sense if you're a team that's on that bubble to get rid of someone like that you can and hope maybe you still get in. I mean, the flames did it with Glenn Cross last year, which.

I mean, the thing with Stahl, in this case, there's like a symbolic aspect to it. And, you know, there's probably ways we can't even measure how weird it'll be for guys on that team to not have him around. I mean, he's with them since the O3 drafts. So, you know, 13 years with one organization almost never happens nowadays. I give Ron Francis actually a lot of credit, though, because, you know, I don't have specific info on the nature of this, but the owner of this team who has the team for sale and is seeing 9,000. people a night at the games or whatever, clearly would want them to make the playoffs, just for the, to offset his costs and to make the money.

But Ron Francis, I believe, looked at his roster, sees a lot of good things happening there. That blue line has been great for how young those players are and chose to still go for the longer term. And, you know, some GMs wouldn't have the clout or maybe the guts to go to their owner and say, look. Yeah, the support especially, right? You know, the other thing, too, they retained half of some.

Stahl's contract, it's a million dollars in actual money for an organization that isn't brimming over with actual money. So, you know, that was a tough trade to make for those reasons, I think. The easy play would have been to just keep him. Right. And hope that he does enough to get you in the playoffs and you, I think that this was the much harder decision. And I give any GM credit who does that because I think it's still too much of a risk-averse league in general.

Right. And that's the one thing I, you know, for all these people that say you can, can't make trades and stuff because of the salary cap. Well, we've seen an insane amount of, like the David Clarkson deal. I realize there's specific circumstances, but that was an untradable contract, so to speak, but it got traded. I mean, there's ways to do it if you're willing to take a gamble. In this case, I don't know that Columbus likes the gamble they took in hindsight on that one.

But you know what I mean? I still think if more GMs, you know, wanted to roll the dice, that there's ways to see more action. Yeah, I agree. I think, I don't know, this might seem anecdotal completely and the actual sort of raw data might not support it but i feel like teams have at least been more inclined to start these trade talks and these rumors have been popping up um earlier and earlier before the deadline right like it just feels like and it makes sense because if i was running a team i wouldn't want to have like a gun held to my head with the deadline looming being like oh like i need to make a trade right now

especially if i'm a if i'm a buyer where i'm like okay i'll i'll bump this third round or up to a second rounder just because the deadline's approaching and we have to make it happen right like especially if you're a good team you'd probably make sense that unless your position's already solidified that you'd want to bring in a guy that you think's going to help you earlier to help win games in the regular season as well and then kind of integrate into your team and get ready for the playoff run as opposed to doing it last minute and being all frantic health or shelter right right well and look most guys delta rentals obviously and they're buying give or take 20 games at this point and why not make

it 25 or 30 i mean it's sort of it's simple to me but you're right i mean the hard part i guess his sellers usually are more inclined to wait closer to the deadline. They're trying to create an auction type thing. But it makes a lot of sense to identify a player, be very serious, and just go get them two weeks early, I think. I mean, like Ottawa did with Dionne Funf. I mean, that was, that deal came together in basically less than 24 hours. And it's because the senators were ready to do it. And they made sure they got an offer together to do it.

And, you know, we'll see. They're still out of the playoffs as we talk now. But they've actually played a little better in recent days. and, you know, they bought February 9th, so they probably bought another 10 games again than if they had to wait until closer the deadline. Yeah. Okay, let's wrap it up with this.

Is there any... What are you looking for come Monday? I'm always looking for a surprise. Do you think we're going to get it? In my heart of hearts, no. Yeah. I don't. I mean, you know, I've been bugging people asking,

is there anything that... I mean, I guess it depends how you also would frame what a surprise would be. But like if Edmonton decide to move on from one of its $6 million guys, that would be a surprise. I mean, we're not, we won't be surprised when the day comes. They trade one of those guys is clearly coming. But if it happened on Monday, that would be a big deal.

So that's the one if I have a handicapping it, and it's sort of a weird thing to even, but if I say, what is the most likely surprise? Because then it might not be likely. But anyway, I would think it's that, Edmonton doing something. I mean, it's clear Peter Shirelli's been there, Todd McClellanell, almost a year.

They feel that a culture change is part of what they have to do. They feel they're in that mode where it's addition by subtraction, which I'm not sure they entered with that. I think that they thought impose a little more structure, but now, I mean, look, they need a blue liner. We know that. And they believe the only way they're really going to get it is by trading one of their more marketable pieces.

Boy, now that I'm thinking about a potential deal there between the oilers and the ducks seems very enticing. I don't know how the money would work. And if the ducks would be interested in bringing on a guy who's inked long term. But I mean, the Oilers clearly desperately need the fencemen, and I feel like the ducks, I mean, it would be a big loss if they lost the guy like Battenham, for example,

but with guys like Shay Theater coming up, who's already kind of cut his teeth a little bit in the HL this season, and guys like Brandon Montour, and they have so many prospects in the HL that that seems like a very interesting fit. It would be good. I mean, look, and that's something, that would be even harder for Bob Murray at this point, I think. I mean, because, you know, you're weighing, okay,

is having Sammy Vattenen on my, for example, in my lineup more valuable if we just end up having to trade them later. You know, like you're wondering, can I get more for him later? Right. Probably not. Yeah. I mean, I would take guts. I would like that, though.

It's funny you mentioned I hadn't thought of that as a connection, but. Well, I mean, for the Oilers, it doesn't, it's one of those things where bringing in Sammy Vatinin now as opposed to, let's say, if they made a trade at the draft. Like, it doesn't really make a difference to them because it's not like Sammy Vatner is going to come in and suddenly revitalize their season, right? The Oilers are content with what their fate is this season. So it's one of those things where for them there might not be that much urgency to make some of that a trade like that happened. But I mean, for the ducks, like that would be fascinating if you brought pretty much any of those guys in and put them in because they'd instantly give you like a little bit of an elevated scoring punch at least.

Well, and what it comes down to really is the ducks have to answer, do we want draft picks for this guy when we do eventually trade them? Right. Or do we want help now? Yeah. And obviously if you want help now, you make the deal to deadline. Right. that's where you're getting it. I mean,

there could be fit there. I mean, and that's where I look for, but really in my heart of hearts, I still think we're talking about depth player for fourth round pick, you know, for the most part on Monday.

But we'll see. I mean, I'm a optimistic person by nature. And, you know, there's something fun about having an actual deadline that forces action that, you know, and we're live on TV and we're bugging everyone we know and see what happens. Cool.

All right, Chris. Well, thanks for taking the time to come on the show. It was a lot of fun. and hopefully now that we're all in the same umbrella, we'll be able to have you on as a recurring guest. It feels a little different now that you're actually on sports. It's not the same old PDOC. Yeah, it's not a little independent project going on on the side

where you just kind of come on for 40 minutes and don't think about it anymore. No sirens. Yeah, no sirens. Yeah, no, this is great. Downtown Toronto, it's not as cold as I was led to believe that it is, but no, it's been great. So thanks for taking the time, and we'll chat soon. Cheers, man.