The Hockey PDOcast - Episode 99: Just Another "Analytics" Podcast

Episode Date: August 11, 2016

Chris Johnston joins the show to discuss how the media can continue to tell more interesting stories using numbers on every medium, but particularly the last great frontier: television. We also chat about the right vs. wrong way to go about assembling an analytics staff in your front office, and which direction Las Vegas will go in with its draft picks come expansion time. Here’s a quick rundown of the topics covered: 0:30 The news cycle grinding to a screeching halt 4:00 How to seamlessly incorporate numbers into your work 7:20 Improving television broadcasts 13:20 Building a cohesive and well-rounded front office 26:00 The expansion draft strategy for Las Vegas Every episode of this podcast is available on iTunes, Soundcloud, Stitcher and can also be streamed right here on the website. Make sure subscribe so that you don’t miss out on any new shows as they’re released, and also take a minute to leave a glowing review. Thanks for listening! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

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and joining me in studio. It's my buddy, Chris Johnston. Chris, it's going on, man. It is a rare occasion when we can sit across from each other and talk. Yeah, we've done this once before at the trade deadline, I believe. When you came to my loft near the St. Lawrence Market, and we talked. And now we're in Little Italy recording this. I like this.

You actually get me the new part to Toronto, because probably like any city that you live in, you end up sort of staying to your neighborhood or where you work, or maybe even in some cases where your friends are. So I haven't been up here near enough. and I live two kilometers door to door. Maybe during the off season, it's starting exploring Toronto blog and just... I think you'd do well at it.

Capturing all these different locations we record at? You've got the spirit of the city in you. I like that. All right, so it's, what is it? It's August 9th. Nothing's really happened lately. I feel like today's biggest story was that Alex Ovechkin might have gotten injured

while he was training, but then a report quickly came out, came out saying that he's not actually injured and he's fine and he'll play in the World Cup. So that's where we're at news-wise at this point of the off-season. My favorite of all the countries is Russian reports because they actually are quite honestly. I think people maybe are a bit too skeptical.

They're actually quite honestly usually right. But there's always a level of sort of mystery. You know, and myself having covered a lot of international tournaments, the Russian team of any team is the hardest to kind of crack just even for simple information. So it doesn't surprise me that that story would be very unclear. Even if it wasn't Alex Lavechkin, but, you know, it's been a fascinating few weeks. because, you know, every once in a while, even though I'm enjoying my vacation, you sort of wonder, like, what am I missing? And then you go to General Fanager, cat-friendly, whatever you use, and look at the signings.

Like, there's not even sort of modest RFA signings at this point. I mean, I sense that most of the hockey world is not paid. It's not just the journalist. I think it's... Everyone's just on vacation. The agents, the GMs, the AGMs, and, you know, everyone's just enjoying the summer because we all know, especially the World Cup. Yeah.

It's going to start with a spring. this year in September. Yes. Well, it's good. I feel like we deserve it. It was a good playoffs. And as you mentioned now, with the World Cup,

and then it's going to be the condensed schedule and everything's going to be so hectic this year that I think it's kind of good to get a little break here. It is, but I've missed the PDO cast. And I'm not just saying that because I'm sitting across of you. It was like a month of an empty feed. And so I was quite excited last week that I was, you know, because I'm living a life of leisure for the most part.

I've actually been listening to podcasts like crazy. and yours, Demetri, I must say, is one that's been missing. So glad to have you back the last couple shows. I'm glad to have you back on the show. All right, so I'm here in Toronto, and one thing I'll be doing here other than enjoying my vacation and exploring all the different neighborhoods the city has to offer is a meeting with our bosses at SportsNet

to discuss our game plan for how we're going to cover this coming season and sort of the approaches we want to take and stuff we want to focus on. And I think now that I have you in studio, it would be interesting to sort of just discuss where we're at now in 2016 in terms of kind of relaying information to consumers because there still is, I feel like the fan base is growing in terms of people that want more numbers heavy stuff and more thinking fans, if you will, in terms of they want the minutia of what's going on and all things like that. But we also at the same time, whether it's on TV or on podcasts or in written work, you don't just want to regurgitate a bunch

of numerical information at someone because that's not very entertaining and that's ultimately why they're tuning in for it right because like all this stuff's available online you can search it up yourself but generally people that are working a nine to five job of their own and just want to kind of want you to tell them what they need to know what the specifics are so i don't know like how do you approach that as someone who does work in all these different uh sort mediums in terms of trying to kind of put a spin on that while also remaining entertaining and not trying to overwhelm them with information? Well, the one thing that's always frustrated me, and I can't say that I've found a solution

to this yet, but I found as a journalist specifically that players, if we're going to, let's just talk about players just to keep it as narrow as possible, they'll get like something attached to them. So like a player will do something sort of notable and someone will be the first to write about it or talk about it. And then that person gets asked incessantly about that one specific thing in his life over and over and over and over again, you know, you might see with a draft prospect whose dad played in the NHL. Or, I mean, that's fairly obvious. But even, you know, occasionally something, you know, Patrick O'Sullivan, who's become very well known on Twitter, you know, had some interesting circumstances with his father.

growing up and like that becomes kind of his story that gets told in various ways again again again and I feel like that we're not always sort of doing a better job of finding the new in there and we're all better served for that and what's probably the best thing of all with what you mentioned is that the people that are consuming the information or whichever medium is coming from they want more and I'm with you I think that we have to find ways to present the gray sometimes it's not just a black and white. This is the mold. You know, this team does certain moves because of this. This player does certain things because of this. I mean, we're all far more complex, as we know,

being in our own minds. I don't do any one thing because of things you might know about me. Like, there's a lot more going on. And I feel like because the audience is more sophisticated that I hope that that we'll react to it, you know, not just a sports net, but in general, that that we'll recognize there's so much more to tell. And, you know, we need some help from the people we're dealing with, too, to open up to us. But, you know, there's evidence of that. I mean, I was telling you about this earlier, and I would urge anyone. And I'll have to look it up before the podcast is over.

But this summer, I heard a podcast with Jonathan Taves where he was speaking about his interest sort of in stoicism and really questioning kind of deep fundamental questions about what his life is about, why he is. I mean, I think the sort of questions anyone asks at certain points in time, but to hear a hockey player in the prime of his career with the kind of stage he has, he's open about that, and I will get the name for anyone who wants to listen, was fascinating. And I just think that it's just a reminder that there's so much there for all of us to pursue. And that's when you're analyzing a situation, but it's also in the sort of lifestyle sort of storytelling aspect as well. Yeah. And I think that, like, it's easy for us on this podcast, for example, like we're hanging out right now and we can just talk about whatever and there's no real restrictions involved. And it's, and ultimately, like, in my writing work as well, like, if people, generally the people that read or listen to my work are the people who already sort of know what they're getting into and they're going out of their way to search for it. But I feel like the frontier we still need to conquer in terms of telling better and more well-rounded, interesting, innovative stories is on TV because I think, I've discussed it was Jeff Merrick on this podcast quite a bit because he is frequently on TV.

And he mentions that he wants to say all this other interesting stuff, but he has these time restrictions. And it's not necessarily kind of enabling him to go into these long convoluted stories. He sort of needs to hit his spots and hit his marks. And then he's quickly out of there. And then they're all of a sudden, you know, commercials and all this sort of stuff. So I don't know. Like you've been on TV a bunch this past year doing your hockey coverage.

Like, is there a way that we're going to get better at that in this next season? season or is there still a long way to go for that? Well, I'm a terminal optimist, so I believe so, but, but, you know, the problems are pretty obvious. I mean, it's, if you were ever to sit there, and I presume most people all listening have better things to do, but time, sort of how much time each person that's making a point speaks, it's, it's very short amount of time. And even in an intermission segment, it's a 17-minute intermission, but there's commercials and all this other stuff. I mean, you're really boiling the analysis of the game or the discussion about the points around the game down to a couple minutes and you sometimes have four or five people on the panel.

You know, we start to see the issue here. There's no, the real conversation isn't happening in that time frame. And I say that with respect to the people that do that. It's just there's not time to get into the issues. And I think maybe that's why podcasts like this one have found a niche is because there's an opportunity maybe to unpack things a little bit more. And I have to believe, you know, with some of the changes that have gone on at SportsNat specifically, that there's going to be an opportunity now to do more because I think that the audience has shown that there's more interest in hearing things discussed a different way. And you're right. Jeff's problem is real.

And the times I'm on there, it's real. But we still have to fight against saying that it's something you can't do. You can still make it. I think that we can accept actually now. the more I think about it, we can accept that the base level of knowledge is higher than what it was. For sure. Like to reference some even basic analytical ideas, I don't think that you have to explain, you know, the sort of where it comes from. Each time you don't have to explain the definitions of where we got all this.

Shot attempts, not including block shots or whatever. Like that once would have been even four or five years ago was common even in written articles in the mainstream press. I think that there's ways to do it now. Look at my dad's 68. Yeah. He understands this. like the general stuff. Well, it's common sense.

Right. And I think that there's a way now that maybe we can accept that our audience knows more and hopefully use that as a way to get at least slightly deeper ideas, but it's difficult with the time constraints. Right. Well, I think that one thing I'm definitely going to recommend to our bosses is that I give everyone a crash course on what analytics actually means because we're a loaded term. We were discussing this before we went on the air.

And I understand, I say it sometimes myself just because it is easier just to to say that rather than like preface it with this, you know, long spiel about what you're actually referring to. It's kind of like a catch-all term. But like during the draft, for example, one of the last hockey broadcasts that I watched, it just every, every single thing that Arizona Coyotes did was an analytics move. It's like drafting Clayton Keller, analytics. It's like, I don't, you know, I'm not privy to what the coyotes were using to make that pick. But I can go on his hockey DB page and see that, you know, he scores a lot and he produces a lot of goals. and he's a very productive offensive player.

And I imagine that was one of the main selling points for them, that this guy's are really skilled and talented, and we know that goals are hard to come by in the NHL, so we're going to take him because generally you have to get those guys early in the draft if you're ever going to get them. Well, and the reality is, most GMs rely on their scouting people to really guide them to the pick. I mean, maybe it's the GM at the end of the day

that has to sort of live and die by it, especially if there's two ideas in his own camp, and he has to make the final word. It's not like John Shika is, you know, like he's not orchestrating all this. I mean, he's busy enough. We've seen everything the coyotes have done. They've been hiring people. They've got a new HL franchise that they're populating.

They've made a lot of moves this off season. My guess is because he was relatively new on the job at that draft, that he was leaning on the scouting staff that's been in place. And plus, I mean, he was in the organization before in a more junior role before becoming GM. But you're right. He's not pulling all the strings and saying, you know, analytics. He's not just like opening up a big spreadsheet and being like, okay,

we're taking this, this guy, and then we're trading for all these guys. Like there's so much that goes into it. It's not. And I'm not sure where this comes from. I think there's, I guess there's always a level of mystery around these teams that even those of us like, like you and I, Demetri, who know lots of people work for the teams or talk to them,

who are maybe even friendly with them. We don't always get a total view into what's happening. But the little bit of peek behind the door we get reveals that there's a lot of the same human dynamics that exist in any workplace. And there's competing ideas and competing voices and internal politics. And there's all these things. So it's like, yes, teams have really across the league have probably hired analytics people.

Yes. You're using air quotes there. Yes, sorry. That's not shown on the podcast, but like analytics is a very broad field. In fact, if there's anything we can say that's happened since free agency, I mean, the most interesting moves arguably is the stuff that's kind of the shuffling behind the scenes because I think we're still trying to get a handle on which teams are using this. How are they using it? Right. And there's, there's been some evidence. Tyler Delo. Yeah. I'm not being moved by the Oilers. Matt Feffer with the

habs. I mean, this thing, I don't know, it's almost like a couple years ago that the outside people said, all right, teams are doing analytics. Let's not talk about it. Well, let's face it. This is evolving still. Right. And we've had discussions about this off the air, but I think it is interesting. I think people listening to this podcast will be interested to kind of get a little peek behind the curtain in the sense that like, like, for someone like myself, I would not want to work for a team just being hired as the token analytics guy in the sense that you hire someone just so you can point to it and be like, oh, listen, like, we're doing analytics. Clearly, we have this guy on our staff. And I think that happened around the league. It happened, especially that one summer

two years ago, I believe, we're just like, all these teams are hiring just one guy just to sort of press release. And it's like, of course we're doing it. Come on. Look, look, we hire this guy, but then, I mean, months later or whatever, you, you talk to that person and you just find out that they've sort of been emailing back and forth with themselves because, you know, their decisions aren't actually, they're not having a serious voice in the room. It's not going to dictate all the moves, but you should at least consider it if you're going to hire the person rather than just doing it for a, you know, a show of good faith or whatever. And this is why you need, I think, to be successful. You need the strength of an organization that goes top down because people have

to feel comfortable in their roles. And I can honestly see, and I believe this has happened, where some GMs don't really listen or don't adhere to some of the things. I mean, I'm sure part of it is just they don't buy into it. And they're the one at this point who has full control on hockey matters. And it is that simple. But I also think there's an element of they still have to prove their own worth. And then if they're just getting certain reports and making moves based on those reports and if those moves work, you know, they might, be at a point at some you know not that far down the road where they're not getting the credit either so I think that that to make it really work everyone has to feel comfortable where they are and be part of a

team and that that's something that organizations in every industry struggle with because there's a lot of natural tension built into these these ideas and if I were to wager and I don't have the I don't have the number but I'm guessing the number of teams or this works what we from the outside would say is is well, it's like definitely less than five out of 30, now 31 teams. Yeah, yeah, that's true. And might be like two or three. Well, and I think I've been asked like what would, if you were running a team, what would your optimal sort of work situation look like? And I think that, you know, if you look at a team like the Leafs, for example, where they have that one summer they hired a bunch of guys. But they clearly like put together an infrastructure there that it's like, it's a,

it's sort of a symbiotic environment where these guys are working together and they're building off of each other and they're not just yelling into an empty abyss they're actually sort of growing as hockey minds because they're going back and forth and you're challenging each other's findings and that's the way you go and then you have someone in place whether it's an assistant GM or whoever that can sort of act as that as that bridge or buffer as you put it where the guys can be like this is what we found and then he can go and talk to his boss and figure it out that way because sometimes the divide between a person that's brought in to consult for analytical findings and a GM is so vast that sometimes you can't actually bridge that yourself.

You need someone in the middle to do that for you. Right. And that's where Kyle Dubus in the Leif situation fits in so well because, I mean, I guess in some circles, he's become known as an analytics air quote guy. Right. But obviously his background. It's really funny. He's actually like a very hot.

I just say it's a hockey guy. If you just saw his resume, he's as much a hockey guy as anyone. in his age that that's that's in that level and you know he's he's had all those sort of traditional I guess if you want to call it that experiences and and but then he's obviously has an open mind and so I think he must and I'll tell you these days and it's not an axe to grind but it's even tougher and tougher to figure out exactly what's going on in there if you're in my role but I mean the way I can imagine the way I sort of know it generally is that he can present the findings of, you know, he's in the management discussions.

And he's got the back of the people that are doing those analysis for him. And, you know, I have to assume, and if the lead to PR staff is listening, I haven't talked to Kyle with this because I don't want to betray him in any way, but I haven't. But I'm just, I have to assume he cares about. Like, he's not asking them, it's not a make work situation, right? And it is an ideal way for it to be because I think we've seen a number of situations without naming names at this stage of the podcast

where I know of people who've been producing report after report, analysis on the current team, maybe players they should target, you know, opportunities, and they just feel like they're firing into the abyss. And at the very least, we know in the least situation, that they have a champion at the big table. Right. Doesn't mean Lula Amaral's Lus and, in fact,

there's a few moves that the team's made that suggests otherwise. But at the very least, that's working. the way it should. Right. Because that voice is being heard. And I think, you know, other teams can't employ as many people. There's a money aspect. Right.

I think that there's something to be learned from, you're right. They need a champion on the inside who can bridge that divide. What do you think, like, what's your take on that just from the outside? Because you did mention sort of moves that have flied in the face of what we generally would thought they'd be doing because it's stuff like giving Matt Martin a long term deal with a bunch of money or bringing back Roman Polack or, you know, in the draft, they went with the strategy of drafting a bunch of overage players, which is generally something you wouldn't see from a team that's looking at the numbers up really closely.

Like, it just seems like it was definitely a departure from what we would have thought they would have done otherwise. Like, do you think they just, like, identified other inefficiencies that they should target? It's tough to say. I will say, the issue we always have, because we cover sports, right? And there isn't always a scoreboard at the end of the day. And so we're watching all this in real time. And, like, I'm no different.

anyone else, a fan or someone like you, Dmitri, I'm trying to figure out what does this mean? What does this say about the big picture? Is this a hint of dissent? Is this? But, you know, the great thing about August 9th is I feel like we're actually more naturally just a few feet removed because no one's in the middle of this. And, you know, I, to me, I see it as an organization that not one person has the voice. That much is clear. It's not just, it's not just lose world. Like in New Jersey, There was no exaggeration there. Right.

He was the beginning and the end of every word about the team. In Toronto, I think that he has that reputation. I don't believe that he has the full and final every say, but obviously he's a big presence. And I just look back to, so when they're hired, I mean, quickly, this actually speaks to the analytics issue. So they brought on the analytics team. Yeah.

And Kyle Dubas at a time when Dave Nonas was still the GM for one season. Dave and everyone else who is Associated Dave gets fired. You know, Brandon Shanhan brought him on so he was still as the big boss. But then he hires Lou Lamarillo last year, but a little bit more than a year ago now. Right.

And that changed everything. I mean, Lou is... As old school as it gets. It just shows, though, the problem with saying, like, what's the perfect model? Right. Is there's no model.

Like, every year, these teams change so much. Right. And I believe we could go deeper with all the teams. Yeah. I mean, the Leafs have been particularly hectic, the last five years, say. But you kind of have to get used to that environment. So what their moves say to me is that one thing I've, my honest takeaway is that Lou has some power, but he doesn't have ultimate power.

Right. And, you know, that's significant enough because there's a lot of other newer progressive voices. I mean, I expect fully to see Kyle Dubas as a jam in the league of probably the Leafs, but maybe somewhere else. There was a lot of talk about that. Coyote's opening for a while before he quickly shot it down. Right. But even Luz, if we go back to. his original press conference and someone said something about Kyle and Lou's answer and Lou is not,

I'll tell you, I've interviewed Lou many times. It's a constant frustration of mine because he is so good at not saying anything. But he said the day that he took the job, if Kyle isn't the next GM or the Leafs, it's Kyle's fault, which I realize is a slightly loaded comment. Right. But really, to me, what he was saying is that most people internally see him as the next GM and then he was putting it all on Kyle. Like if he can't make this work, then it's his fault. But, you know, let's face it. I just think Kyle will be a GM in the league. And the future is coming.

And I think that those guys still have some say in these moves. Well, it's interesting because we're discussing, like, that progression of going from assistant GM to GM, it's not necessarily as, you know, foolproof as you might think. It's not like a linear thing where you go like, okay, you're going to do this job. But then you're going to get promoted to this and this, this, this. And then all of a sudden you're going to be GM. It's like these guys come from all different walks of not necessarily life, but of the game, like of whether it's former players or guys that have been scouts or this and that. And I don't know, just like I do wonder as we're going along now here in the next couple of years

as, you know, more teams hire these younger assistant GMs and teams realize that they need to become more progressive, whether we will see more of that more of a linear progression where guys kind of get to sort of work on their craft for a few years as the assistant GM without necessarily handling all of that pressure and then all of us. side and moving up to the big role. It's such a weird job because, I mean, so many of them stay around for a long time. I mean, GMs, you know, for all the bad moves made around the league, and I think any, even the smartest mind in hockey would make bad moves, but so many GMs keep jobs for a really long period of time.

So the seats don't really change that much. Then occasionally when they do, you see guys get a second job. Right. Jim Rutherford in Pittsburgh, Peter Shirelli and Edmonton, you know, you know the idea of what I'm referencing. And then there's a few guys like Jim Benning moved up from an AGM in Boston to a GM in Vancouver. But you're right, there's really no, I mean, I think back to when I hired Mike Gillis out of the ranks of an agent. I mean, that's happened.

It's really tough to, if you're charting your course to be an NHL GM, I don't know how you do it. Find a different career path is probably. Well, I mean, anyone who has that job today should just probably pinch themselves. I mean, I don't like to even get a minute. those guys probably to be honest right now are thinking about stuff don't have enough time to do with their team right like like I don't envy their life at all but I'm just saying to get that kind of role and to keep it is very difficult yeah I think and and there's no one way to target at it like Steve Eisenman is in the hockey hall

of fame he could he could be doing anything right now he could be doing a token job shaking hands at games for the Red Wings yeah you know he could probably be in business world I'm sure he's made, you know, that's the one thing. Athletes all, you know, play golf with the right guys. Like, they could be, and he's such a smart guy, and he chose to be a GM. Right. But very few people that are as accomplished on the ice as he was choose to do it. It's, it's the Wild West.

Anyway, I know a lot of guys who work in front offices who dream of being GMs. There's only 31 jobs. I'm not here to ever say they can't do it because that's not my nature, but it's so difficult. And there's not, there's not, I don't know what the best schooling is, really. And actually, the coyotes, maybe they, I mean, they're reaching a little bit because there's an unknown quality. I don't mean that they've done wrong. But there's a calculated risk in what they've done. But I think that that's the right way because at the very least now, the person who has say on hockey matters really is involved in their analytical discussions.

And I think the more teams move at least to putting those people in positions of legitimate power, not just as consultants. I think the better arm they are. That's the next, sort of the next wave, right? Yes. It's the counterbalance what you're saying. Right. You don't want to just be a guy firing reports into the air. Yes.

You need power. Yes. Yeah. We'd all like a little bit of power. I'm his agent. No, it's really funny. When you were mentioning that, I was thinking, like, 30 teams, 30 teams, 30 teams. And I was like, oh, yeah, there's 31 teams.

It's like every year, it takes, like, a few weeks for you to kind of realize that the calendar is actually turned. Yeah. I hate to say that. I'm pumped about it. Yeah. My whole career there's been 30 when I was a kid, obviously there was less. But everything about this team, I mean, we've had expansion in the past. So I guess those that want to do their research can look back, you know, more than a decade and see how it plays out.

But let's face it, most people are of the moment. And we're learning now in real time, how is this going to work? Well, and I think that we've discussed this before. But like, I definitely get the feeling just from how everything's sort of shaping up that this Las Vegas expansion team will be at least. least at the start, given more equal footing in terms of being given a chance to succeed, right? Like if you look back at those expansion drafts for the past ones, it's like some of the guys being taken at the top of it was just like career backup goalies and like third pairing defensemen like the top choices that they can make. And I feel like at least this team will

see how they, how, what path they decide to go because there will be like a minimum financial requirement that they have to hit. So they might have to take on some bad contracts. But it'll be fascinating to see like they have a lot of options it feels like from legitimately talented players across the league well it's actually it's unprecedented really the salary cap didn't exist the last time we had this and they have i think almost with every team okay there might be a few um where they don't really have a choice like there where there's one player they're taking right from that available pool but i think in most cases they'll be choosing between the guy with a bit of name and a bit of contract and the best available prospectish or you know right like young player

that hasn't necessarily who's like 22 and who's played in the hl but and and that will be a constant choice because eventually they have to have enough sort of oversized contracts right but they also for this to really work they have to get a few of those yeah you know at least second tier prospects you're not getting in most cases they're not getting a top 10 first round pick I mean, those guys will either be protected or they will be exempt. But it's fascinating. I think it's actually more, it's nice to see how much in short order here, George McPhees filled out his front office because I think way more than any NHL expansion team,

like this could go, I see the bad. Everyone's talking about how good this could be. And I saw, again, you said you were an optimist. I am, but I see the problem here is that they're literally going to face that choice in probably 18 of the team's minimum, where there's a decent guy you want for today, but then there's a bit of tomorrow, and they're weighing that and what's best.

And what I mean by why, I'm just glad they're getting people in place because they have to do all the diligence they can. And even though it's, you know, June is still 10 months from now, it's not that long. That's a lot of games to watch. It's a lot of intel to make. And I want the team to be good.

I mean, not out of, I just think it should be. I mean, they paid $500 million. I mean, if you're, I mean, there's not a lot of equity in pro sports or equality rather. But like these guys have paid a lot of money. And if this is going to work, they probably have to have a good team. And I just think they can go one way that yes, we'll look back on going, oh, great expansion process. But I could see another way where we're like, look at all the crap contracts or stuff with.

Take on all the anchors. And if they don't have enough coming up behind them, like it could. I'm not joking. I could see them being bad for like seven years because as we know, you can't buy out every bad contract. You can't trade every bad contract. And if they take the wrong bad contracts,

anyway. But that's why I'm... It makes it fun, man. This is why the 31st team is amazing. Well, and listen, it could go, there's so much time left until there's actual expansion drafts so many things could change.

But I think an interesting wrinkle to watch will be just keeping in mind that this team is playing. in Las Vegas in terms of the players that they wind up selecting because from some discussions I've had, I do think that there will be more of a veteran vibe of older players on this team just because they are worried about kind of loading it up with young guys who might be more entranced with all of Vegas's vices. Well, that's real too.

And the other thing that veterans will like is the no state tax income tax. which, you know, obviously exists now in Florida and in Texas and Nashville and Tennessee or no. Anyway, definitely in Texas and Florida, but not that many NHL stocks have a total sort of tax-free situation, you know, which I think when you get to the end of the career, you see the end coming, you're trying to maximize what you make and what you do. I think a lot of people will really embrace that community. It's not a bad place. So I was just down there when they made the announcement, the end of the day. the June and I took a ride out with a friend of mine around T.P. Summerlin where the TPC

Summerland would have a pretty good golf course, but it's where the practice facility is going to be. Yeah. It's not the strip. And obviously, every other time I've been there, I've basically been on the strip or just off the strip. Right. But it's like there's another world there that, you know, this is what they're banking on. They don't want anyone who even wants to go on a Friday night, really. I mean, maybe occasionally. They're not, you know, inhuman about it. But yeah, But they really want people who want to live in that other part of Vegas that tourists don't get to see. I'm a big believer in this. I have to say, I mean, I think that this is going to be really good.

I think players are, the big thing that sells me, A, they have a brand new nice arena. And Bill Foley is a real deal. Like, I've just met him a couple times, and I am, he's the kind of guy that he wish he could be your boss. Right. Like, if he wants to buy a media company, I'm in. Yeah. And that's not an insult to anyone I work for. But he's a sort of guy that I think you fall in line for.

So he's the right owner to have in this situation with a lot of unknowns hanging over. And there will be a lot of unknowns hanging over, especially since I feel like all this stuff's happening. And it's so easy to get caught up in it. But then you realize that there's actually a full NHL season to be played before any of this really materializes, which seems kind of crazy. It does. You wonder what's George Fee's next year going to look like? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I would guess as veteran as he is, he still doesn't really know.

Right. And even all the work he would have done, I'm sure he's talked to David Poil, for example, who spent a whole year building the National Predators before they were fished to the National Predators. They hired Barry Trots a year out. Right. It doesn't sound like Vegas wants to do that. Like, they'll maybe wait a little closer for a coach. But, you know, it's uncharted territory, even for a guy who's been doing that job for so long.

And, you know, I think he's going to have. have to watch the day-to-day NHL a lot to see what teams are doing because there's a few teams out there that made preemptive moves but like Ben Bishop is still with a lightning. And I'm like a guy like Mark Andre Flore for example. Mark Connery Flore with the Penguins. I mean the goalies is the one we, it's the easiest to focus on because there's really, you have two NHL goalies in most cases and so we get a look at it. But the defenseman is the next case because teams can either protect three as part of sort of the

larger scenario or if they protect four they get fewer skaters but you know that i don't think that in any case we can start to guess if you you know washington for example they have orpick niskinen carlson uh help me out orlov the guy from calgary great guy we're really we're really blanking yeah i'll pull it up midsummer yes we're in offseason forum but you know you realize what I'm saying here is that I think that that will start to take more clarity as that the season goes along, which teams are good, who gets traded, and if you're George McPhee, you're watching this every day. You're thinking of Carl Olsner?

Carl Lerner. There we go. I'm sorry, Carl. Literally, if you're doing my job, like, if you're in rooms every day, he's one of the best guys you could account for it. And in George McPhee's case, he knows all about that team. And they're a team, to me, just at the outset, I mean, maybe it's as simple as they let Perksorpic be exposed, you know, because he has a big.

ticket, but that's a team that's going to have some interesting choices. Yes. And there's many more around the league. And I think if you're the GM of the Vegas, they're not going to be the knights now, apparently. The London Knights don't like that. But the Vegas, whatever they are, you've got to be watching that stuff every day. You've got to figure out sort of where the pressure points are, I guess, in the league. Yeah, well, I'm looking forward to it.

I think that it's kind of cool that they went ahead like this and obviously hired McPhee. But then all of a sudden that he just went around and just hired his full staff, basically. so quickly, like not the coach yet, but what were your thoughts on all the guys that he hired to make up the rest of his front office? It's an interesting group, and I just, like, sorry, I'm just geeked out about this still, because, like, I feel like my analysis is very thin at this point, because I'm just excited because we're seeing something you don't normally see, right? But to go to Kelly McCriman, right, who I know, you know, the Leafs were very close with

on a job last year, other teams have shown interest in. He's been in the WHL for years in Brandon. And I mean, that's, he's bringing sort of new blood, if you will. I mean, he's been around the NHL with his family name, but, you know, into that organization. I think that, that to me is what's interesting. Misha Don Scov. Help me with the. Yeah, Don't want to mispronounce names.

I know I know you're sensitive if someone gets Philopovich wrong. Oh, yeah. Or Demetri misspelled very frequently. Right. But Misha obviously has made big names at Hockey Canada as their analytics guy. Right. I don't have a full sense of what he's. doing but the director of hockey operations he's going to have a say in it i mean that that's an interesting

hire to me and so they're sort of imagining a different universe i think that most teams are yeah most teams are trying to fit people in they're they're building their you know their whole thing out right and as i said i really think this is going to be good yeah well i know it's not for everyone but like it does seem like it's kind of like a clean slate and there's just like for optimists out there they're the possibilities are really endless, right? So for like, for whether it's people they're hiring or players they'll be getting or people that'll be following that team, it's just like, it is a very exciting time because it could go both ways, but there is also a way to envision this being a success that's going to be so entertaining to watch.

And good for the league. Right. Like I don't think we're predicting they're going to win like the Western Conference in the first year, but they could have a team for sure that's tough to play against, which, I mean, that's the bar. That's the bar for an expansion team. Are you going to win eight games? Are you going to, like, be tough? Like, when you go there, you're worried you're going to lose.

Right. And what hockey's become, really, as we know, it's a coin flip. So many games. Yes. If anyone's in Vegas right now and you're gambling on games, bless you. Because I don't know how you do it. Because on any given night, really, like, it's become Gary Bettman's ideal here that, that more or less teams sort of regress to some sort of mean.

And there's really a coin flip aspect to it. And, you know, so anyway, I can. could see them being not obvious, they're not going to be sort of historically bad. But I could see them making historically bad choices, as I mentioned. Because the one thing that all teams are saddled with, even if they're players that play for you, is bad contracts. And so to start, Vegas has no bad contracts. Right.

But as soon as June 19th or 17th or whenever that expansion draft is, they might. Well, they're probably going to have to take on at least a couple, honestly. Right. But did they take five-year ones or two-year ones? Right. Yeah. And that's the question. I mean, like, I mean, look, are they going to take on Brent Seabrook?

Mm-hmm. Who has been a tremendous player, won lots of cups. Yes. Nothing bad to say about him individually, but, like, giving him an eight-year extension is... That hasn't even kicked in yet. It's insane. A little kick in by the time. Well, yeah, I know.

But even, like, last year, he wasn't even playing on an extension yet, and he clearly shown signs of decline. It's just crazy. Right. And you know what they're doing. Yeah. But my point is that will immediately, when we're, evaluating Chicago down the line is going to be like, oh.

Yes. And so Vegas is starting without that, but I'm just curious how many of those type of deals, you know, do they take on a Dustin Brown? It's probably a more realistic conversation. I don't anticipate Prince of being exposed, but Dustin Brown certainly will be. I'm sure the Kings would love if they took on Dustin Brown. Right. But if you're in Vegas, like, does that make any sense? Yeah.

And they need, again, they need to hit a certain percentage. I believe it's $48 million, give or take. their first year. It might be 49. I know Tom from General Fantage will be emailing as soon as as this is live. He'll be telling me what exactly it is. But I'm sorry Tom, but it will be somewhere in that range. And so they do have to take on deals. Right. And so you have to choose which bitter pills could you swallow and which ones do you want to avoid. Yes. Well, it's going to be an exciting time and I'm sure we'll have a lot of discussions about sort of draft strategy and stuff they can do moving forward. Chris, thanks for taking the time to come on the podcast. It's been fun. We didn't

even get to the World Cup. So that's how... We didn't... We'll do that later. I'm sure we'll have time in the next month or so to chat about that. So everyone can follow you at Reporter Chris. And I can follow my Toronto Adventures blog that I still haven't named yet, but we'll be going online shortly. Are you going to Twitter soon? I hope so. The people want to know. We'll see. I hope so. I've been tweeting out the links to these podcasts, so hopefully I'll actually start indulging in conversations again. All right. Well, we will all wait with baited breath. All right, man. Talk soon.

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