The Hockey PDOcast - Film Club - Matthew Tkachuk’s Playoff Run

Episode Date: May 19, 2023

Jesse Marshall joins the show to discuss how effective Matthew Tkachuk has been so far during Florida's playoff run, what we're seeing on tape from him, and why it makes him such a unique player from a skill set perspective.This podcast is produced by  Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Meen since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedocast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich, and joining me as my buddy Jesse Marshall. Jesse, what's going on in? Good to be with you. Thank you for having me again. Yeah.

So here's the plan for today. We're going to do a film club. We're going to do Matthew Kachuk, a player that we've been planning on doing this for a while. Full disclosure, we had this one scheduled for Thursday yesterday. And then something came up and we had to push it back a day. and that's why there wasn't a show yesterday. And initially I was worried because I wanted to do it as kind of like a primer for the Eastern Conference final before that series started. And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen in this game, especially with Maddie Kichick, anything could happen.

You could either have an amazing game or you could do something and get suspended. I'm like, I don't know if this is going to age very well. And if we're going to be able to do the show on Friday. And then the timing turns out could have been better because he scores the overtime winner to mercifully end game one of the East final before it reached a fifth over. time. And so it turns out there really are hockey gods and they're looking down upon us here today. Yeah. And first of all, thank you for being accommodating to the pink eye that's ravaging my household among other illnesses. Yeah, you know what's funny is I'm, we almost got two hockey games, right? Like that was what we basically watched and that was two hockey games. And I'm

appreciative of that because there's so much more you can analyze with that breadth of game. And when it goes that long in game one, the adjustments you would see between game one and game two. You get to watch them happen on the fly, right? You get to watch people figure things out as the game goes on. It's a very unique circumstance. You know, I think there's a big difference to be between a game one, five O T and a game six, five OT. By game six, you figured a lot of things out by then. You're entrenched in your habits. You can micro adjust in the game, how you match lines, how, you know, whatever, but you don't see the actual strategy shift like I think you saw last night, where I think Florida at the beginning was really sort of like aghast by a Carolina,

style of play and how sort of big they make themselves in the offensive zone and spread out everywhere they are. But as the game went on, you started to see that classic Florida forecheck that's been so good. And really for me, the story of the postseason start to shift the tie to that game. And Matthew Kachuk, who's frankly been at the absolute helm of that forecheck, this entire postseason to be, for it to be him was, I thought, super representative of the Florida experience. Well, and if I could think of two teams who pace themselves less over a course of 60 minutes than these two teams, it's like they go full blast pretty much every single shift, right? And so for them to then have to play essentially an extra game in the same evening is very physically taxing.

And also on the note of the adjustment, I think we're going to get into this with Kachuk himself. But I thought that he made some clear adjustments as the game went along because I was sweating it for a while. I thought in regulation, it was one of the worst games, if not the worst game I've seen him play this postseason. A lot of the stuff he had been doing in rounds one and two in terms of waiting for the puck to come to him doesn't really work against this hurricane team because they pressure so hard man on man that when he's waiting along the boards for the puck to come to him, by the time it gets there, someone on the hurricanes like steps in there and either pokes it away or gets in his

space much quicker than I think he had been used to in the previous rounds. And so he made a bunch of turnovers. I think at least a handful to Brett Pesci, it felt like he was all over him. And then as the game went along in the overtimes, it felt like he really got his footing, got his bearings. And by the time the fourth overtime came around, he was setting up a handful of grade A chances and kind of looking much more like the Matthew Cichuk we'd seen in the first two rounds. And so I thought that was pretty notable. You know, it's funny, and we don't have to turn this whole show into a game one analysis of the Eastern Conference final. We're kind of going that route.

But it's specific, it's relative to Matthew Cichuk. so it's important. You know, circumstances beget that forwards fulfill different roles. Not every four check is the same. Not every breakout's the same. Hockey's a chaotic game. I may prefer to be F1 in the series. Got to be F2 in the circumstance, right?

That's just the way things go. And there's not always a defined and set role. You got to know how to play every space. But I do think, Demetri, that I was extremely interesting, that what we saw, I think last night was Kachuk play the role of the straw stir, the front four checker in the in the Florida system less than ever last night because Carolina is executing this very simple breakout to neutralize that man.

They want to take as much time and space as they can. And it's just a very simple D to D structure. It's a D to D pass where you make a greater than symbol with your defenseman, go up with your pass around the four checker. other defensemen moves up around the floor checker. You just kind of zip a doodle around. I made that up. That's a phrase I just invented.

I like it. But it renders that top guy less effective in most controlled circumstances. So where do they move Matthew Kuchuk now to have the most level of effectiveness? It's in the middle two of the Florida system. It's a one, two, two, they put him in the middle. And it did, to your point, it didn't go well. You kind of saw him almost be more reactive, right? for Kachuk at his best is an unleashed animal, right?

I think we can both agree with that. Like the guy is just the epitome of controlled, smart, aggressive hockey. But as the game were on and you saw it in the OT goal, he began to attack himself in that middle of the ice and go from reacting to proactively getting on the puck and making circumstances for the recipient of that second breakout pass really difficult. So all this is to say, Dimitri, we could probably start here.

You know, you focus on, You could focus on the individual skill. Great. Good shot. You saw it overtime shot. It looked perfectly placed. You could focus on the aggression and the forechecking and sort of like the tempo he brings, which is a tangible impact of the game.

But I think you got to start with the head first, the brains. We've talked about this, you and I off show. He always seems to have that anticipatory next step on everyone he plays with. And no matter who the opponent is, he's just moving at a pace. They just can't seem to keep up. with from a decision-making perspective. And he has to, right? Because if he plays the footspeed game, he's going to lose every single time.

So he almost has to adjust in that way. And that's a great point. I mean, this forchick of theirs, I don't even know what the tally is up to this point, but it's got to be in double digits of goals they've created this postseason within seconds of forcing a turnover in their attacking zone and other teams defensive zone. And we did a full conversation on our last film club about the crack in forchick. and then we looped the Panthers in as well and kind of compared and contrast to the two.

And that's a really good point you make there because I think I naturally envisioned him as being that aggressive F1, right? You just like picture him barreling in and sometimes like throwing those kind of reverse checks even to try to dislodge a defenseman from a pocket force to turn over that way. But now that he's playing on this combination

with Bennett and cousins, sometimes it works where he can kind of defer those guys to use their wheels to go in there and disrupt. And then that allows him, to kind of almost like a safety, right? He's like standing there in the zone and then he can read where the play is going and then as the second wave kind of jump that route.

And it's really interesting to see that kind of interplay in how those guys kind of assume those roles and how he can be effective in both of them. Yeah. And that's to be fair. Like I said, you know, you have to be able to know them all, but that doesn't mean everybody's good at them.

Right. And I think there's some players that are just, they're not able to move and shift back into the neutral zone and produce turnovers and disrupt the play with the same level of effectiveness that he is. That's truly what makes it remarkable is that, you know, even in the circumstance like the one that Carolina has sort of invented here where they can, they have the one, the defensive personnel to skate and pass around this thing.

At some point or another, you got to give the puck up to a forward in the middle, right? Like that's like you can't, your whole offensive strategy can't just be defensive and carry in every single time 100% of the time. Like that's sort of almost like what they're daring you to do now because they're eating up the middle. And if people say like, well, what does that look like? And I think like for Kachuk, even in the evolution of last night's game, Demetri, it went from constantly being physically engaged with someone and thinking that that was

the right move to playing off of them and then attacking and closing and giving them this like false sense of space that they have the space in time to make their play and then coming in with an active stick or a hip check or a body really quick closing to, to, you know, be able to to disrupt it. And, you know, he almost was like, you know, you talk about a safety read in the quarterback's eyes. It's playing off the ball too and giving that quarterback the sense that the route is open when it's not. You have the jump. You know what's about to happen. I just thought it was interesting to see that play out again through the course of last night. It's difficult to notice live, but I think on rewatching some of those overtimes, you start to see him sort of stalk you like a shark

in the neutral zone, right? Well, and for forwards, I think it's really difficult to properly, I mean, for every player, like evaluating defense and properly attributing who's responsible and then how we weigh that compared to the offensive side of things is always difficult, right? And I think part of the problem for me, like, I like the trade when they made it in the off season because I thought it was a very shrewd move from a business perspective of not only divesting themselves from two diminishing assets that are in their 30s and are due for a big payday, but also locking yourself into like a longer runway with a guy who's 24 years old

or whatever and just basically having the rest of his prime, right? So I really liked it from that perspective. I wasn't entirely sure what we were going to get from him this season because, first off, the counting stats offensively were unlike anything he'd done previously, right? And part of it seemed to be inflated by the ridiculous playmaking season Johnny Goodrow had beside him and some inflated percentages. And there was also the defensive part of things, though, where I think he was like 93rd percentile or something and even strength defense.

and there was a lot of talk about how he was moving the needle so much on that end. And I was a bit skeptical of that because I felt like a lot of it was actually what Elias Linholm was doing and kind of that unit as a whole. And the circumstances of it were driving it. Now, his even strength defense fell to 57th percentile this season. But it doesn't matter because the offense is obviously so great. And I think some of these things from the forecheck to the anticipation to moving them in the right direction constantly kind of, accounts for why those numbers are the way they are, right? Because I don't think you necessarily think of most wingers as driving defensive results,

but especially one who's kind of as plotting as he is with his foot speed, being able to do so, right? I think generally we think of like a guy who who skates really well and can pressure opposing puck carriers. Those are the guys who are good defensive forwards, but he does it in such a different way. I think that's why it's kind of tough to wrap your head around how he's doing it. It's a good call. And I would also argue, too, Dimitri, that the most of, like, I think, I think the impact is there, but I don't know how much it's happening in the defensive zone, you know, like, I feel like, like he's present there, right?

Sure. But I think overall, it's, it's that disruption that occurs between the blue lines that allows to flip the play on its head and make these really, like, these chances that really grossly benefit Florida, right, in the exchanges that, that he finds himself in. I have the number, I don't have it in front of me, but I think, you know, looking at his playoff run this year, I think like what his goals for percentage for Florida is at even strength over like 80% right now. It's just, it's strangling.

Well, let me give you, let me give you, I'll set the scene here. Let me give you all of the, I have a rundown of his postseason metrics so far to kind of just give people an idea of. And then we can talk more about what we're seeing on tape on how they're doing it, right? and kind of build off of this conversation we started with. So he's got six goals and 11 assists, eight of them primary, 10, 5.15 points. That's an even strength. No, that's overall, 17 points, 10, 5-1-5 points, which are tied with Rupa Hints for the league lead this postseason.

He's got 28 high-danger chances himself taken, which leads the team, according to Natural Statric. And then by my passing data that I've tracked, and I sent you this, he leads the team with 45 shot assists, which is second on the team is Brandon Montreuxor 33, and a lot of that is like, simple little power play passes and not actually being a massive playmaker the like a chuck is but then he set up directly 30 scoring chances in 13 games for the florida panthers second on the team is carter for hague with 15 that kind of just give you a sense of how much of the puck is kind of being funneled through him and then he's making the decision of who it goes to in the offensive zone right and so with him on the ice of i15 they're up 13 to 3

as you mentioned there. They have 59% of the shots, 59% of the expected goals, high danger chances are 60 to 37. And what's impressive to me, Jesse, beyond all of that, because obviously all of those numbers, if you're up 13 to 3,

you're doing a lot of stuff right, is who it's coming against. So in round 1, he plays 40 minutes against Brad Marchand. They're up for nothing in those minutes. In round 2, he plays 35 minutes head-to-head with Martyr and Matthews. They're up 4-1 in those minutes.

And then in game 1 here of the East Final, really two games worth, It was interesting. They weren't using Jordan Stahl against him as much as I thought they would. They actually went with the, with the Martinuk fast called Kahnemi line instead. But that overtime winner came on a four check where they forced Burns and Slavin into making a mistake in their own zone.

And those two guys through the first two rounds had been about as clean and infallible as you're going to get, right? I've been talking about how I think Slavin should be like one of the cons, my favorites, how he had preposterous 5-on-5 on high school numbers himself. and so he's doing all of this against the other team's best players too, and I think that's what's impressive about it. Yeah. Man, there's still a lot to take in there.

I think so first of all, the fact that you're 100% right, the pair that he did that against Leszai and overtime, they had been basically infalliable. But I think that it is a testament to the way, the style of play and how it can cause you to see ghosts, right? like in in both of the length of a series as a whole and then individually in the microcosm of a game right um there's just you know this is so much these teams love to have timing based and route based breakouts that work very similarly to how uh routes and football work you know there there's there's guys jutting through

the neutral zone very high rates of speed you got somebody trying to get an object from them to the other guy, like through a body of, of opponents. And they, the Florida's ability to just destroy that and force teams to play a style of hockey that they don't have an interest in that requires more work, coming back deeper into the zone, playing puck support in a way that most people probably don't like, taking a lot of flare out of your game, stifling a little bit of your creativity, um, it from, and even all the way down to the timing disruption, uh, it, You know, you have to have the right mix to be able to do this, right? You have to have the right mix.

This line, any line he's on, he's the straw that stirs the drink, but the rest of the mix has been right to. It's been players that can get up ice and jump on loose pucks quickly. It's players that can make the most out of transition opportunities. It's other players that have sort of like followed his lead and jumped in. I mean, if you look at the raw turnover numbers that, that Corey, tracks to the All Three Zones Project, Carter Verhegey's been through the roof this postseason and his own ability to get up ice and create turnovers with four checking.

I think that we've seen, we've both said last show that these four checks are really sort of defining the way that the game is played now. But when you start to look at the nuance of it and how Matthew Kachuk fits into it specifically, you've got to give credit to the staff for allowing them, them being the players, go out and feast like this because it's so, you know, it's so much easier to play on the front foot in this game. When you're pressing the play and you're the one forcing decisions in hockey, you're always going to be have more win than the other guy. When you're forcing the other guy to chase you around or to go after loose pox, I mean, that's what this whole thing is about.

You become this reactionary opponent when the face of, of a style of play like this. And you begin to chase. And that just. it wins teams so viscerally. And I kept thinking to myself, like the longer this game goes. And like I know Carolina had chances late into that game, Bobrovsky was unbelievable. I mean, like,

Sheena Goldman pointed out his performance was like second all time and goals save above expected in the analytic era. But you could see as the game went on, like it just becomes so taxing. And his understanding to me, Demetri, of him being Kachuk, how to make you skate the most. is almost uncanny the way he presses you from an angular lane perspective, right?

He forces you to reroute yourself or to take the long way to get there and be physically engaged with him the entire time. And if you have an, if you have a goal in mind for your breakout or just even as an individual player to meet you, there's nothing worse than having to take that extra mile in what should be a routine step for you, right? And that's, I think, really what it is. It's like playing your favorite video game on a difficulty level. you've never even seen before.

It's going to drive you crazy. Your muscle memory, all that. Throw it out the window. You know, it's like playing Tetris on level 99 speed. You know, most people don't know how to react with that as the starting point. I'm with you on that. And in terms of like the combination of skills and why they've jelled so well together, at the same time, though, if you had told me at the start of the season that a line of

Matthew Kichuk, Sam Bennett and Nick Cousins would be getting those, these types of numbers, I would be like, I would not have believed you, right? Because I think heading into the year, I was like, all right, well, they're bringing them in, they're going to pair them up with, with Barakov. I'm interested to see how those skills mesh together. They haven't really done that. Then during the regular season, they had Verhege on that line instead of cousins, and their numbers were through the roof.

I think they were up like 50 to 25 at 5-1-5 when they were out there together. And when they started the postseason that way, when they sometimes throughout these games, either if they feel like they need to kind of create something like, offensively in an isolated situation or situational in the offensive zone, they put Verhegey out there with him. And I love every single time they do that because him and Bennett creates so many of these opportunities and Verhege's finishing is such a boo next to them. But I understand why they're not using them full time that way because Berhege is very

useful for Duclair and Barkov on the other line. But for him to be driving this line in this way with two guys who I do not think would be getting anywhere near these results without him is what's impressive. right he's kind of and that's what makes him so effective is is i remember i know it's like i if i'm describing it he's a play connector right like he allows all of this stuff to come together and without him it's a bunch of sort of spare parts that are moving in different directions but all of a sudden you put it together and everything seems to flow much more smoothly from their end of the ice through to deep in the offensive zone 100% he is the equivalent of like a good midfielder right and

soccer the way that he can connect all of your parts together and make the whole thing work but i i just have to go but you know the the the forecheck is the straw that that stirs the drink here right like that is what makes this whole system this whole thing work um and that that is where i think his presence has felt uh the most and i just i guess what shocked me um and we've touched on this already but but what shocked me is seeing how You know, this is a team that lacks a lot of gross star power, right? Like, I mean, you look at the situation that we're in here. Like, you wouldn't say Florida could keep up with namewise, a team like Boston or Toronto.

But I, what shocked me was how much the impact of one really good player in the right environment could have. And you think about these stories in other sports, like especially the NBA, I think, where you have one superstar that can make a run, right, and can beat, you know, and do the superhuman to topple like a, you know, a super giant with all these max contracts on it. This, this feels like that. You know, this is that in hockey. I don't know, frankly, that I could really go back in time in the modern, like,

I don't know, you want to use the term, like, analytic era. Like, can you think of, like, a story like this where, like, a player became so, I guess, like, I go back to, like, like 1999 when Yarmary Yager beat the devils and like upset them as an eight seed and did it all by himself on one groin like I think about that sometimes like but I mean to me this is just this is so uncanny to see and I'm not I'm not here to dis Florida this isn't dis Florida fest right but like this is a star player being a star player and having this massive unimaginable impact and toppling all these giants along the way I just feel like this narrative.

and this scene is like so grossly unheard of in hockey. Like we just don't see this thing happen all that often. And it's just, for a player of Kachuk's ilk that seemingly lacks like some of the flare and finesse that you would expect out of the high-end talent that are capable of that, that makes it even, I think, more uncanny

and all the more bizarre and fun to watch. Well, I think Lost in this a little bit, or underreported is this was the team that won the president's trophy last season, right? There's a lot of pieces from that nucleus that are still here. I think what, to piggyback up, what you're saying, though, is him coming in totally changed not only like the identity or whatever you want to say, but also like how they play in certain ways, right?

And then I think that's what they were trying to accomplish as well, beyond the business and the financial sort of thing and kind of planning long term. It was they clearly wanted to diversify their attack, change the way they play without necessarily completely removing some of that rush element. and they've accomplished that. And they deserve credit for it. I don't think we necessarily, you know, every time a team makes a run like this,

we get a bunch of dissertations about like, oh, this is what this actually means about team building in whatever year it is. And I don't think we necessarily need to spin it in that fashion. I wouldn't mind it if the takeaway from this is it's okay to make aggressive trades in the offseason, especially like hockey ones where big name players are moving. I'm excited about that. We're in the content game.

I would love to see more of that, certainly. But I don't think this necessarily is something where, like, oh, we need to learn from every single time a team makes a run like this because we do acknowledge the playoffs sometimes are about randomness, right? They're 5 and 0 in overtime so far. They're winning every single one goal game. This is a magical run. And that's part of the beauty of the playoffs.

And so I don't think we should lose sight of that either. And it kind of doesn't mean we shouldn't enjoy the ride while it's happening, but we also don't need to make kind of like widespread proclamations about changing what teams are doing. just because of what Florida is doing right now. No, I agree that. I actually, I mean, I think that's what makes this so fun is probably not the like, like there's some things you could look at and be like,

I don't know, you know, I think, you know, there's an uncanniness to this, like you said, right? But it's an example of me of like a really good player being really, really good. And, you know, you end up with a couple David Goliath feels out of the result. And it's been, I don't know, that's good for the sport in my opinion. Well, it's a good. off season to be a strong forechecker. Like I think I think that's going to be the takeaway, not just Florida,

but a lot of the themes we've been talking about through this postseason, right? I don't have the free agent list in front of me. But if you are known for forechecking, you will get an extra dollar of a million dollars on AV on your deal this summer, I think. And we might see some trades of teams prioritizing those skill sets as well. So I'm interested to see how that works out. All right, Jesse, let's take our break here while we still can. And then when we get into the second part of the show,

we'll kind of get a bit more into describing some of the stuff that Cucuck is actually doing and kind of what we're noticing on tape as well. So looking forward to that, you're listening to the HockeyPedio cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. Your number one spot for Flames coverage can be found on Flames Talk with me, Pat Steinberg,

exclusive interviews, trusted insiders, and the latest news. Listen live weekday afternoons and four or stream the Flames Talk podcast on demand. All right, we're back here on the HockeyPedioCaster Jesse, Marshall Jesse. We're doing our Matthew Cachukh, film club. Let's get into some of the nerdy tape details that I think listeners tune in for because we talked a lot about game theory and stats so far. So the reason why I wanted to do this is because I was thinking about this. I think the Chuck

might be one of the most, if not the most unique player in terms of skill set in the game right now, right? I just can't really think of a lot of analogs for the combination of things he does. a lot's been made so far this postseason. Dallas Aiken's went on, was on the broadcasts on Sportsnet during round two, right? And he, during one of the, one of the intermissions was talking about how much of the game, especially in the postseason,

is played along the boards, how important that wall play is. And that became like a big topic of discussion, right? And in thinking about it and watching these games, there's probably no better player in the league right now at leveraging that to make successful possession plays than Matthew Kachuk. I send you a couple clips where it doesn't even wind up being necessarily a scoring chance or a goal, but I think they help explain why some of these five-on-five metrics for him

are the way that they are. And it is that play connection where he's so good at standing at either blue line, basically, which are very high leverage points of the ice because they literally represent like a barrier, either enter or exit. And while he's standing on the wall, particularly, let's say, in terms of zone exits, part of the difficulty is a defenseman is bearing down on you, right? They're coming down full blast. They're going to try to poke the puck away or hit you or disrupt something.

And he just stands in there with his back turn to them. And he's able to absorb that and then make a play into the middle of the ice for either a Bennett or a cousins to then skate into it. And it makes them in the process even probably faster than they actually are. in a vacuum because all of a sudden he's created this like runway for them to skate into right and so that is such an important skill and i think help explain why they're getting the results they are and i wanted to highlight that here first because i think it's like an important part of because a lot of the headlines are going to be around his passing from the goal line right

and like how he can set up plays into a bumper for sam ryanherd and all that but i think this is one of the most underappreciated skills in the game right now and is worth exploring more and then that's what we're here to do today. Well, I think the, you know, probably the most impressive part about it to be, he never looks. He never, he, he does no point. If you're, if you're an opposing player trying to get like some kind of tell about what's about to happen, like where this puck's going to go, like good luck.

Like, I don't think I've ever seen him like telegraph this stuff. And it's his ability to make like what I would almost recall, I would almost call like scoops and digs on the puck, right? Because he's not looking to make a tape to tape pass in most of these. circumstances. I love the use of the term runway, right? Because it's exactly what it is. So you're engaging with him in some form or fashion. You think you've got him tied up. He could even use his legs most of the time. He's just looking to kick that puck into the area that you're not because you've come to him, right? You've drawn to him. And he knows that, you know, at the point he is in that

system, he is, like we said earlier, he's that connection, right, plays that role of uniting the front and backends of your team together. That's how he's doing it. You know, in a world where time and space is as limited as it's ever going to be in the game of hockey in the postseason, you have to be able to make these plays with a high level of effectiveness and is the smallest amount of time and the smallest window as you possibly can.

So, you know, you see the play come to him. There's this physical engagement. You're expecting this long, drawn out war, but he takes his stick on the backhand between his legs and just pushes the puck out to a teammate who's streaking through the neutral zone at 100 miles an hour. And then boom, here's this clean zone injury. And it was a guy that you never saw coming.

So you're 100% correct. And it's the ability to do it just based off of what his peripheral vision is telling him. And trust in his teammates being where they should be. I mean, that's another big part of this, too, is he's trusting that these guys are going to be there because he's not stopping and turning and looking and doing the traditional things that a lesser player would do to telegraph that pass. So I'll vary just within the flow

and the puck is with him for such a short period of time, but the touch he's putting on it is so important in the grand sequence of the event. Well, that play at your defensive blue line on the breakout is such a crossroads moment in every hockey game and it happens countless times, obviously. But if you don't make the right play there, you're going to be trapped in your own zone.

And more often than not, it's either going to lead to sustained pressure that then results in a penalty or a goal against. Or if you do manage to get it out of your zone, especially in say the second period with a long change, all of a sudden now you're tired,

you're scrambling to the bench, the other team teams are getting so good at regrouping quickly and getting back in the zone and they're either going to get a numerical advantage or you're going to set up whoever is coming on the ice next for your team, right, replacing you with fresh legs.

All of a sudden now, they're starting their shifts, scrambling in a defensive zone, and it's not an advantageous position to be in. And so you wind up one little play results in two, three, five minutes of what we describe as momentum changes, right? And so that's really important. And, you know, in Corey Schneider's tracking his regular season, I thought it was really interesting, like the percentiles of how this works where he is in the 97th percentile in zone exits, one of the best forwards in the league at doing so. He's only 65th percentile at zone entries, which makes sense, right? He's like, Generally, the guys were the best of that are the burners who can just carry the puck in themselves.

But he's in the 98th percentile in rush assists leading to shots or chances. And so at the other end of the ice, what he also does is he kind of posts up around that blue line and a similar effect where he can get it to a Bennett to then skate into it and have a rush chance himself. And it's kind of, it's so fascinating how he positions himself in these high leverage spots on the ice along the boards and is comfortable making these plays under pressure. And I don't know, it's, it's really cool. Like, Darryl Belfrey always talks about how one of the most important skills or things that we need to talk about in hockey is improving the conditions of the puck, right?

It's like, you get the puck. It is either in a bad place on the ice or it's bouncing or it's, it's kind of tricky to corral or someone's come in to pressure you. And what you do with it in terms of settling it and then making a play so that when you pass it to a teammate, they're in a better position. You're not just handing them a ticking bomb, basically, right, where they're going to get hit with it in open ice. He does that so well, where he improves the conditions every time.

Like, he knocks a puck out of midair, settles it, and then passes it to a teammate. And they're so much better off for it, right? It's like one of the most teammate friendly skill sets, I think you can have. We probably ought to focus on that a little bit more as like one of his most underrated skill sets, is the hand eye that comes in with him being a 14. checker because he's flagging a lot of stuff down to your point. You know, everything he does is about forcing a defenseman to go the opposite direction of the way that they're going, which inherently kills their momentum, right?

Because if you're a defenseman skating forward with the intent of playing offense and someone generates a turnover, you have to stop and go backwards to play defense, right? the other person that's coming at you doesn't have to stop right they have the buck like they they now hold a distinct advantage over your head and he's taking a lot of really good defensemen and i think making them look bad but they're looking bad because of the circumstance right the the the game is changing on them the the the tide shifts from offense to defense because of those plays he's making it the defensive blue line and the offensive blue line i love that the idea of him just being a facilitator of the play, right?

Very rarely is the guy that is going to draw the puck across the line himself, but he's the one working it out of the defensive zone, and then is making himself available across the blue line to then redistribute the puck once the entry is complete. So they're really vital. I think that kind of role is, again, and I've said this now a couple times on the show, the amount of brains you have to have,

understanding of the way the game is played and the flow of it and putting a puck in an area that is either advantageous or disadvantageous for your teammate. To do all of that at the level of speed that he does it and it's just so seamless. He doesn't delay anything, right? He makes these really important plays and decisions as they're happening without slowing a single thing down. And that's what makes him so difficult to mark in the offensive zone, you know, and that maybe this is a transition for you,

Dimitri, but he so often seems to be skating in a direction and way that is just totally the opposite of everyone else. Yeah. Right? Like, it's like, you look at him,

you think, what is he doing, but it's in preparation for whatever the next thing is. You know, he's not thinking about the now. He's thinking about the two steps from now and going against the grain to get there in a lot of ways sometimes. It's funny to watch to me because you can always sort of notice him

because he's doing something that you think to yourself, where is he going or what is this? You know, it doesn't make any sense in the moment. but then a bang, bang, play. Oh, okay, I get it now. No, I'm with you. He, um, the only way to describe it is in the neutral zone.

He kind of like, it's like a basketball player posting up and backing down a defender. And I don't ever recall seeing someone do it in the neutral zone as much as he does it, and how comfortable he is with that in mind. And, you know, it's strategically, it's smart because you're protecting yourself and the puck in the sense that for the most part, we still see players can be reckless sometimes, particularly along the boards. they don't care if they see your numbers, they're going to run right through you and push you into the boards and take a penalty. But for the most part, it's not the game that it was 10, 20 years

ago, right, where it was just free reign. It was like the Wild Wild West, you see someone, you're just shoving them no matter what direction they're facing. So in this sense, if you're facing the defender, then they can definitely run through you in a legal way more so. And so by turning his back to them, it's smart because he buys himself time to do that kind of like the peripheral surveying and scanning. It's a lot of no-look passes, but he's clocked where his guys are or where he expects him to be before he gets to play. There's a lot of scanning, which is a popular scouting term these days that he does.

And they almost use him like a playmaking center in the NBA, like Nikola Yolai Yolka Joubos, where it's like they pass the puck to him. He turns his back in the post, and then they send cutters in both directions in Cousins and Bennett or sometimes a mentor if he's out there with him to then. provide passing outlets and options for him. And then he basically gets to decide who he wants to get the puck two hevers open and distribute that way. And it's such an interesting way to run a breakout scheme and kind of a neutral zone set the way

that they do. And he's uniquely qualified, I guess, to do so. But it's just, it's interesting. And that's why I said, I wanted to do this and how unique. And now there was no analog to it because it does just visually look a lot different than what you see most teams do. Yeah. I don't know that I could, I mean, I couldn't sit here and name.

And, you know, there are players like that who will turn and invite pressure. I don't know, Sidney Crosby's done that authoritative. Yeah, I mean, he's like, he'll keep you glued in the back pocket. And he's like, I'm comfortable with you there, this entire shift. But more so like behind the net, right? And like when you think about like that, like the spets a shift, right? Yep, yep, yep. It's a bit of a different skill set than just standing there at center ice along the boards,

which obviously a center probably wouldn't be doing more so anyways. but it's yeah it's it it Chris Crosby's probably the best example in terms of comfort level being in that type of position where the defender is placed yeah but I love that I love what you said about like the step ahead scanning you know I mean that that's great I mean because it you know again I can't stress enough that like if he waits a second too long in all of this you know the idea of being able to make an area pass or just put the puck in a place where you know your teammates got the best crack at it and they have speed to get there. that's gone. You lose it. You know, that's a momentary thing. You know, that's something that happens in the second that it's happening based on the flow of the game. And you lose that if it's if you don't have that sense. So, and I think there's, we probably ought to give a shout to to his ability to play.

You know, we've talked, we alluded to this too. But that that lends itself to what he can do in the offensive zone, right? And I think that whether it's him making the cut or him distributing the puck in the cycle, that line's ability to elongate an offensive zone shift, use an active D, right? There's a lot of understanding that's going on there in terms of like, again, where everyone's supposed to be, what's the best angle to take to get there? And I love watching Kachuk specifically walk out of the corner to the front of the net with the puck, which seems to be a huge preference of his, is to try to get to the corner.

And he's got a lot of distribution options on his way there too, right? So it's not always just a crash and tuck opportunity. I mean, I think he gets pretty creative with it. But all these things tie together, you know, to make him, you know, I think sort of the more dynamic puck distributor that we've seen in a while in terms of approach. And, you know, like you said, the sort of post-up technique that he does where he knows somebody's, you know, he wants to be engaged with physically, frankly. You know, he wants that magnetizing other players to himself just opens up space

for everybody else. So he seems to really, really welcome that. Well, I think this came up during, and this is a point you made when we did, I think, our Elias Pedersen film club, right? Where like he almost like, he likes to initiate that first contact or feel where the defender is because then it's sort of like, it locates everything for him, right? And then puts it into place and then you can act accordingly off of it. And that it's always like a subtle little little touch or a little bump. And it's never anything that would get, get called, right? But in a sense,

it is kind of like, the defender doesn't have the puck. And sometimes he does it before he gets the puck. So it's like you're initiating contact. It's interference, but the grand scheme of things, it will never get called the way it should. I mean,

they let much more egregious things go, especially in the playoffs. But yeah, it's very, it's all of it. Like, it's very, there's a certain evil genius to it.

And then there's a certain, like more subtle kind of genius, creative genius. as to how he does it and he has to because he won't be able to take the park like Connor McDavid in his own zone and go coast to coast. So he has to do it differently. You can get away with a lot more in motion, right? Like you're really going to get caught when two people are standing still and you take their legs out from under them or something like that or move. You know what I mean? That's where you really get in trouble. He is so good and masterful

at in motion contact. So he scored a couple goals like this, this post season where he'll come through on a cycle, barrel through an area and just like you said, shove someone, right? Like at the moment that the puck's going to arrive, like he's preemptibly moving them out of the way so that he's the only one that can get the crack on the puck. And it's happening in a window that's, well, first of all, he's not egregiously tackling anyone, right? I think that's like a really important, like getting physical with someone and like using the same. I mean, it's still, I'm not trying to explain away interference. But I think, you know, it's what makes it. different to me is he's doing it in such a smart way, right?

He's in motion. He's moving through an area and skates in the same place as somebody else happens to be skating. And he's going to win that physical engagement. He gets a little extension on him. Sometimes there's a shove there, but he knows how to move people to create space. That's the takeaway, right? Like, that's, it's the same thing. It's the same idea.

It's proactively striking on the defenseman that's going to try to stick lift you and take away your time and space. If you move them out of the way, they're not there. They can't do that when you get the puck. Also, the reality is that if you're the first person to initiate the contact, that generally does not get called. But then if there's a retaliation after, especially they goes above and beyond, and then an embellishment follows or reaction follows,

that catches the official's eye. And generally, like, they notice the first one. And then they're watching. And then if the second thing happens as a retaliation, that's what gets called. And that's how you get into a spot where Madhika Chuck is drawn 10 penalties this postseason and taken only five, which is also another massive advantage for his team, right? It's part of the game, you know, for better or for worse.

And sometimes it could be very frustrating if you're the other team because you feel like they're getting away with a lot more than and then they're not getting called for it. And then you do something and you're immediately called for it. It's very frustrating. But that's kind of part of the cat and mouse game here. Yeah. Or I guess cat, cat and rat game. If you want to go with the rat.

Is there any other stuff on Kachak here that you think stands out or is kind of like noticeable on the tape in terms of like little tricks or little skills, trademark skills that you've noticed from him? No, I just, I'm happy he's had an opportunity to showcase. Like I said, you know, I think that we talk a lot about all this stuff and lost in all of that. I think the icing on the cake here is the fact that he's a good shooter. He's a good shooter, you know, maybe not.

He's 40 goals this year. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's, you know, we haven't even mentioned it. like we haven't even mentioned it. But this postseason for me, with regards to his shot, has been what I think is his bread and butter. And it's that I will sacrifice everything I need to in the world of velocity, to put it exactly where it needs to go.

And I think there's just a lot of really good innovation from him in ways that he can, you know, keep his blade flat, to keep the puck on the ice and the wherewithal to know when that's appropriate, it, you know, in loose puck situations versus clean shot situations. And, you know, the tool is nice, Dmitri, but the discernment of the tool, right? That's what sometimes separates you and gets you to the 40 goal plateau. And discernment, I think, has been probably his best tool and his shot this year. And it's just, it's the right selection.

You know, you could have all the fancy clubs in your bag. But if you don't know how to use them, they're no good. And he knows how to use all of them. So I think it's just, that, that is. the icing on the cake to all this. He can create these opportunities you can do. And then, and then as a finisher, where he often finds himself, given how close his proximity to the mouth of the net is and where you can usually find them when the cycle gets going, he is just clinical with knowing what that situation calls for and what the circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. I mean,

I'm glad we did this because we've been talking about doing this one for a while, but also I feel like a lot of, and I'm responsible for this as well, a lot of the playoff coverage so far through these first two plus rounds of the Panthers has been what the Bruins and the Leafs have done poorly to lose or get upset in people's eyes as opposed to what the Panthers might have done to kind of force their hand or put them in those situations or win these games and what they did right. And now you look up and there are seven wins from the Stanley Cup. Certainly a long way to go from that. I think this series against Carolina is going to be especially hellish with a lot of back and forth and twist and turns and it's going to be a long

hard fall one if game one is any indication. But, you know, I thought this was going to be a bit of a step back year for them as like a calculated bridge to take a step back and then lock in a player long term that's younger and then use the future years to add around him. And I guess they did technically in the regular season, right? It was it was a big surprise. They almost missed the playoffs. But now you look up and they're obviously having the success in, and having this magical ride through the post season. So it was good to finally direct a bit of the attention or praise their way, I guess. Yeah, agreed.

And again, I have to reiterate that I think the lesson learned for me was star player value, you know. And how, you know, I, I'm not surprised to see him have this level of impact. But just, you know, for the mix to be this right. Right. And for everything to have on the team. That's been the crazy part for me. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you on that.

We got a couple of minutes here. Do I do a quick note on how you're feeling about your Pittsburgh Penguins? Sure. You know, moving. So you got the GM progressing, the GM search progressing. There's been a lot of exciting names in the mix. Matthew Darsh, Eric Tulski, John Chaker. While they didn't make it to the second round, unfortunately, Pete got knocked out.

So I don't know that we have like a really full understanding. of who is in the second round, right? But I think if you get the sampling and names from guys that are around it and are sniffing around, it's an exciting time. You know, I think that there's a need for a cap savvy forward thinker who's not going to make trades from a kale grandlin for a second rounder in five million cap hit. And you need to find something that can get out of that stuff and is going to get the player evaluation piece right right now today right um that's what this is about it's about it's winning

and with this window as open as small as it might be open demetri's as small as it might be um there is a crack and maximizing that crack in in the right way is is the ask and i think you see a lot of names we just started recording the show about an hour after kyle dubus parted ways with the maple leaf so you know that fsg purportedly loves him uh so we'll see if if there's any anything the big gets an interview there if there's any conversation but um you know i think given how bad things were in pittsburgh and how just absolutely ruined uh the ron ex-dall era became uh at the end there there's a lot of excitement around these and names because they're you know again a little bit more forward thinking and um you know a little bit more uh i hate to use the term analytical

friendly demetri because that's so it takes me back let's 2010 but modernized modernized in their line of thinking. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, hearing you say like first round, second round, I think what should become an annual tradition is teams that miss the playoffs that are either in pursuit of a new GM or new coach be like holding rounds of, of the interview process to mirror the NHL post seasons. And now we're in the Eastern Conference final portion of the Pittsburgh Penguins GM search. Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't worry too much about the list of names. I know whenever it's like reported of like these guys are all interviewing and then you pick like the worst retread on there. It's like, oh my God. Like what if they do this? And I assure you a lot of it is

just doing due diligence in terms of like mining for ideas. Not that necessarily I would be asking Peter Shirley on how to build my team anyways. But yeah, I think it's an interesting job. Obviously it's scary that, you know, Crosby's 36, Malkins 37, Lothang is 36. And that's, that's a scary job to inherit, but I do think it's a very like unambiguous job as well in terms of like the goal, right? Like it's like how do we get this team better now, but also in a way where the infrastructure is there and now you just need to bring in players that actually make sense for once for the coach that's in place and the system that's in place. And then the fact that you do have some cap space now and I see no good reason why they should be selecting 14th overall this season or whatever. And the fact

that you could leverage that potentially into improving your team would make this an intriguing landing spot for me if I were a prospective GM. But yeah, I'm very curious to see how that turns out. All right, Jesse, let's get out here. I'll let you plug some stuff on the way out and let the listeners know where they can check you out. Yeah, so I'm working on a discussion about forechecking in the playoffs right now, a little bit of a systems analysis for McKeon. I've got a little bit more work to do on it, but look for that for them soon. It's really going to, it's going to be about forechecking and, you know, the flavor of the playoff, as it were, and a little bit more insight into how these teams are doing it.

All right, buddy. Well, I'm looking forward to reading that. We will do another film club before the postseason is over and we move on to next year. So we'll take some submissions from listeners, as always, if they're interested in us deep diving anyone, and we'll do that in a couple weeks. Thank you to everyone for listening to the Hockeypedo guests for another week.

We'll be back on Monday with plenty more of the show here on the Sportsnet Radio Network.