The Hockey PDOcast - Game 3 Takeaways and Offseason Player Movement

Episode Date: June 9, 2023

Thomas Drance joins Dimitri to talk about their big takeaways from last night's Game 3 of the Stanley Cup Final. They also discuss recent trades around the league, potential trades on the horizon, and why power dynamics are changing in the NHL.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2050. It's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dmitra Filippovich and joining me in studio on this Friday. Can't think of a better way to close out another week of shows than hanging on my buddy, Thomas Drenz. Tom, what's going on, bud? No much. Enjoyed.

The Florida Panthers pulling out another one. Oh, I thought you were going to say what you really are doing right now is currently simulating the draft order and picks that will be a bit of a bit. in our upcoming fantasy football draft, which happens two and a half months from now. I was just killing some time, yeah? Yes, as you are one to do. I'm no longer doing that, though. I would never do that on the air. No, now we're focusing.

I mean, we've got the French Open on 1 TV. We've got a replay of last night's game, which we'll be talking about here today on the show. Let's start with Game 3 kind of observations takes as Florida gets back into the series and really makes a series of it, getting on the board. And then we'll talk. We'll close the show with some, like, five. current events, stuff around the league for people who aren't necessarily as interested in the games because their favorite team isn't

play, we'll have a little taster for them at the end. So that was a smash and grab by the Florida Panthers. Yeah, well, I certainly think they should feel pretty fortunate to have come away with that win. I'm not, I don't want to frame it as if they were demolished,

but I thought Vegas's quality showed more in that game, certainly than it didn't game one. And it felt like, two things sort of were at play in my view anyway. One is I think we got the best Bobrovsky game since, you know, early in the Toronto series. You know, for all of the overheated headlines that he was generating,

in my opinion anyway, during the conference final, that was a really good Bobrovsky game. And yet I can't get over the fact that like, Vegas has converted on what, 15% of their five-on-five shots all playoff long. Right. They were at 20% in this series. And it reminds me, almost of the other South Florida finals team in the NBA,

where it's like the Miami heater shooting an outrageous clip. They've got like three players who are 35% career guys shooting 46, 48% in the playoffs. And people are like, well, they're open shots. And it's like, yeah, but Caleb Martin's not going to make 48% of open threes going forward even. And it just felt like at some point Vegas was going to have that game where they outplayed another team or outplayed the other team and still came out of it having been outscored 505. That's such a non-story for me, though, in the sense of, like, can you believe that this team in the final of their sport has gotten some good luck along the way? No, of course.

Has the team ever made it to sound like a final with bad luck? Absolutely not a thing. Of course, you need to be good. Put yourself in a position to benefit from that luck. But here's a thing. While you can cite Vegas's shooting percentage is certainly inflated regardless of how much you value their improved shock quality. Yeah, when I do. They've been fortunate.

Florida is now 7 and 0. in overtime games this postseason, which is obviously just as fortunate, if not more, right, to win that many coin flips. That's just the name of the game. As when you get to this time of year. I mean, they were fortunate in a lot of ways last night, I thought. They were. Okay, so they looked like they were on the ropes, right? They tie it up with 2.13 left in regulation.

They win it four and a half minutes until overtime. I'll give you the floor here. What do you want to, do you want to talk about Matthew Kachuk's impact? Do you want to talk about the officiating? Do you want to talk about what you sort of hinted at so far, which was how Vegas played in this game compared to Florida? I want to hit on all those, but as a guess, you can pick which one we start with.

Well, here's what I want to start with. I want to give Paul Maurice a lot of credit for the following. I think it would have been easy, and I think a lot of coaches might have considered turning the dial a little toward men in terms of the way that, the Florida Panthers four checked in game three, given how easily Vegas seemed to break their pressure in games one and two. And I liked that Florida came out and just kept sending two forwards and kept playing their game.

I thought that was important. I thought Vegas struggled to find that like pass down low to a centerman who's able to skate through the neutral zone. Yeah. I thought they had far less success breaking out of their end at five on five. I think it did sort of, they got stuck in the mud a little bit more. Early in the game, I thought as the game went along, they definitely got their footing, yeah. But early in the game, it felt like they took them a while to get going, right? The Mark Stone goal was on the power place.

That was the Marshalls goal, right? It just felt like it, I agree with you that they did sort of solve it as the game went along, but I liked that Maurice didn't alter his game plan, particularly because I think if you go passive against this Vegas forward group in particular with this Panthers defense, you're going to get grinded up. Yeah, I'm going to struggling by that one. On the one hand, I agree with you. I respect, like, we got to this point playing a certain way.

We can't let two losses totally, like, we can't just concede and totally change our identity. At the same time, though, I wouldn't, despite the fact that they won this game and got a few more bounces and some better luck. I don't think the execution was necessarily to the point where I would say, wow, Florida really stumbled upon something that's totally changing the dynamic of the series, right? Like, I think Vegas should, while they should feel like they let one get away and they really could have taken a stranglehold on the series, ultimately, like, if you play that way again, you have to feel good about your chances. And particularly in the neutral zone, like the breakout is one thing. But I thought that, you know, Florida or Vegas really seems to, we worry sometimes about their team speed, right? You're talking about how, like, oh, can Florida's team speed overwhelm them a little bit? I've been noting how I feel like they absorb the opposition speed so well.

I feel like they play better against these aggressive teams because they play that kind of passive forecheck in the neutral zone. They let you skate into it once you make a mistake eventually, which Florida has been doing in this series. They quickly counter and make you punish you for it, right? And I think that's what Paul Maurice was getting at in his media availability before the game. About the restrained physicality?

They're like, we're making this too physical. It doesn't need to be that way. We're kind of chasing hits and stuff like that. I think what he really meant by that was we're playing into Vegas's hands because they're just sitting back and they're basically laying this trap and then we're just skating into it and putting ourselves out of position and then Vegas's elite skaters like Stevenson and Eichol

have so much more room all of a sudden to just skate up the ice with because Florida's like really tightly bunched and they're chasing all these hits and their spacing is all off right? And I thought we saw that kind of again for the most part now the results didn't obviously indicate a Vegas didn't even score a single five-on-five goal. Yeah. But I think it was kind of more of the same. of that and it's really interesting that dynamic of how Vegas is almost benefiting from the opposition

speed. Yeah, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point. I, you know, I like the stubbornness of sticking with what brought you there and I did think they were more effective in that aspect of the game in particular last night, but, you know, I think it's like the way that Vegas is using their size to absorb contact as opposed to initiate contact. Yes. Right? It's like it's a, it's a skilled game married to the size of this Vegas team and I think that's allowed. I also do just think that the Panthers puck movers, especially on the back end, are like great at alluding pressure, but can sometimes skate themselves into it. If you give them space, like I do think it's a unique personality thing about this

panthers back end in particular that makes easing off them or playing them more passively advantageous. But here's the thing. And this Vegas team is different than the past incarnations that made long playoff runs. Sure. But I feel like when they've gone in the trouble in the past, beyond just running into a hot goalie and not having the shock quality to get through it,

I feel like they've struggled against these kind of like passive, more defensive teams, right? Totally. They just like almost do that to them. And then they try to overcompensate to speed the game up themselves and they get into trouble. And so far this postseason. The Canucks game plan in 2020, right?

The Winnipeg series is whatever in round one. But like then they play Edmonton, Dallas, and Florida, which are three of the more sort of aggressive teams in that regard. They haven't necessarily played, you know, a Montreal team in that shortened season or the Canucks in the bubble or even that Dallas team that wound up beating them in the bubble, right? Those are teams that kind of had success playing Vegas that way and they haven't really run into that type of opponents so far this postseason. Now we're in game for the Stanley Cup final. Like, I'm not expecting Florida to suddenly become that team.

No. Even if I think they might benefit from it. I just don't think they have the defensive personnel to pull it off. I think they'd get ground up. You know, credit to a friend of the podcast, Jack Khan, who was on this talking about sort of adjustments after game two in this series. One thing he was noting was because of Vegas's passive neutral zone structure, you can kind of beat them sometimes by doing exactly what Florida did on the overtime winner, which was in the neutral zone that regroup. But then kind of delayed entry by Sam Bennett to stop up and then quickly hit Carter Verhagie in the middle of the ice and then attack. I really like the execution on that.

And, you know, I was on your show the other day, and you were asking me kind of what can Florida do differently to get back in the series. And I think we settled on getting, you know, executing better clearly, but also just getting some more balances. And it feels like that's kind of what happened in this game three. And sure enough, they get the, they get the win to show for it. Yeah. They, uh, I mean, I come out of that one. Sometimes you have these wins in the playoffs and you look at something a team did different. or a change, right?

Like, oh, did they stumble on something? Right. And sometimes you get wins that almost add to your confidence in the other team, like in the losing team. And this was one for me. I almost came out of this feeling, like I felt, I came out of game three feeling far better about Vegas's Stanley Cup chances than I did, for example, after game one,

where I felt like the Panthers had gone toe to toe with them in a way that I hadn't expected. Well, on that note, I've been just beating this drum ball whole season. I've got to stay on brand and continue it. Natural Statsrick had high danger attempts in this game at 18 to 16 for Florida. Yeah. I mean, that certainly didn't pass the eye test,

but also in my tracking. So when Florida pulled their goalie with like two minutes left in regulation to try to tie it up, scoring chances at that point in the game were 17 to 6 for Vegas. It wound up being 17 to 9, Florida got a few there and then tied in and won an overtime. I thought Bobrowski, as you mentioned, was terrific, particularly in,

keeping it two to one, right? He got the benefit of that one post off of, I believe, Barbashev off the rush in the third period, but for the most part, he made a lot of the saves that people have been giving him credit for this postseason, but he actually did them in this game. In particular, there was that one, I think it was off like maybe Howden, where you could see Howden was trying to pick a corner and shoot high on him, and you could, and the replay showed, like, you could visibly see Bobrovsky. He got low again, but then he almost remembered and he like he like he like jumped up and like physically fought it off with his shoulder right it wasn't a matter of like absorbing the puck like he had to get there and he realized that he was

out of position and it was cool because that was like it's very rare you see it play out in real time that way of like that that chess match of shooter versus goalie and him sort of realizing and making the adjustment to his credit so I thought he was really good in that game it was probably the worst offensive effort I've seen from florida this postseason maybe like there were a couple games against Carolina there where they went up and just didn't really try to score for large stretches of the game. But I thought, you know, part of the Vegas in the neutral zone was so suffocating at times. But I don't know. I didn't see anything very encouraging offensively from Florida. Now, what I will say, one adjustment they did make was coming home, having the

benefit of last change. I thought what Paul Maurice did with his usage and deployment was an interesting wrinkle to this series. So the broadcast kept talking about this. and crediting Vegas's fourth line for how well they've played in this series and being like, oh, Paul Maurice does not want to get his top two lines out there against these guys. And I don't think that's what was happening. I think Paul Maurice realized that he can only play his fourth line against Vegas's fourth line, right? Whereas Vegas is very comfortable sending those guys out against Kach's line and sort of absorbing some of those minutes to free up their top players, Paul Maurice does not have that luxury with the way his fourth line is structured, right?

Right. So in this game, he was pretty much like exclusively trying to get that stall, Colin White, Dalpi, Dalpi line out against Vegas' fourth line. What he also did was, I think he realized that, and part of this was because so much the game was spent on special teams, right? There wasn't as much 5-1-5 as you'd expect. But he really realized, I think that, okay, if I'm going to lose, I'm not going to lose rolling my lines. And if you look at the ice times that he divvied out for his players, like White, Delpy, Lomburg, cousins, Mahura, Stahl, everyone you would classify as sort of potential weak links on this team did not play.

And instead, he played Sam Reinhardt for 26 minutes, Montour for 25 and a half, Forsink for 25 and a half, Barkoff for 25, and Eckblad and Bennett. He really just rode his top guys as much as humanly possible. Yeah. And so that's tough because this laid into the season, right? It's like it is kind of a war of attrition and you don't, they might not have as much left in the tank as they otherwise would. But with only a handful of games left in the season, if you are going to go down, at least go down swinging with your top guys.

And so speaking of that, like respecting them sticking to their brand. In this case, I do respect like Paul Maurice's acknowledgement of his weaklings and then basically trying to eliminate their exposure as much as possible. Yeah. And one other thing that I found interesting was the way that Barkov was just sicked. Did you see his head-to-head numbers against Eichol in this game? Yeah, ridiculous. Five and a half minutes, 10 to 1 shot attempts, zero shots on goal for Vegas. Well, I mean, I told you.

I told you, Barkov gets up for those. Do you want to repeat it again for the people who somehow did not listen to our preview? No, just Barkov. Barkov, I remember when I worked with him and Eichl was on the Sabres, so there were four games a year. Like, I know, you can tell with a player, like, he got up to compete with Jack Eichol. I had someone message me and say, I love that story. story, I don't really understand why, like, because they weren't in the same draft class, right? Generally, like, that's, like, what we use as sort of, like, players viewing other

players as a benchmark or, like, for some reason, having commonalities. I think in this case, repetitiveness of playing against each other. And I assume Barkov probably being, like, not only am I underrated, but I feel like I'm better than this guy and no one really talks about it that way, right? I imagine there's an element of that. And I also think, it's just, you know, number one centermen who are roughly your age, you know? Like, I think, I think, I don't know that he felt differently about like Matthews. Like it's just, you could tell with, he's not like, I'm going to go destroy Patrice Bergeron tonight.

Like, I'm sure he wants to beat him, but there's not like he's not, and he's measuring himself up against a gold standard at the position, but it's also not necessarily, uh, he's not a peer of his necessarily, right? And look, I think that makes all the sense in the world. They had to find a way to contain Eichel and really going with a far harder match

in terms of Barkov playing or checking him almost straight up, I think made a fair bit of sense. They had to do it. They had to do it even if the Bennett line, I mean, they get the goal, but they didn't win that matchup. No. They didn't win that matchup against the Stevenson line. And then, you know, they really missed Lus Doreanan.

Like, I really think they missed Lus Doreen a lot more than we're talking about on that third line. It just hasn't been quite the same without that third body, that third puck battle winner. Because when you put him and Reinhardt together on Lundell's flanks, because Lundell, for me anyway, is just like smart at getting to open space and has a quick release and that makes him really good. But he's a perfect fit with two guys that can really be sort of whirling dervishes in terms of driving play.

Yeah, it was a bit of a symbiotic relationship. I think also, like, you know, we were discussing this as well. You know, depending on your mileage on guys like Hauden and O'Madio, they're not necessarily like needle movers. but in the context of playing with the players they play, you're not like pinching your nose every time they're on the ice worrying about what's going to happen. They can hang. They're fine, right?

Whereas, and you feel that way about pretty much everyone on Vegas, right? Like even the fourth line, you're like, all right, if we get them out there against Kachuk's line or against Barcoff's line, we're not necessarily frantically trying to get them off the ice. Whereas for Florida, they don't have that luxury. And so losing a guy you do trust has like, an even further effect. So I'm going to digress here a little bit, but analyzing hockey fundamentally, what we're always doing is trying to parcel out individual credit within, you know, a team sport where

it's actually very difficult to do, right? And so when we talk about a line driver or a play driver, we're talking about trying to identify an individual player that we think gets more responsibility for team results than, or gets more credit or should get more credit for team results than guys who just share the ice with them. And I've always sort of had this formulation when I think about hockey is like there's guys who can set the table by which I mean guys who can drive play. You know, in my mind's eye, think about like, Taves and Kane here. Right. So it's like there's a guy who can set the table and then there's a guy who can eat. Right. Right. And they may not be

setting the table, but they have the talent to finish to make it hold up to really enjoy the meal. And yet I feel like what we don't talk about enough is a level of player for whom Amadio and and Howden, I think, are good examples where it's like, often we'll say for a guy who doesn't, who in an analysis or in an analyst's view doesn't get primary credit for a line's success or failure. Right. We'll call them like a passenger. Right. And that's actually a pretty negative connotation. Like, I feel like we need a term for a guy who is at the level of that line is like not a drawback.

Who can keep up? Yeah. Like who can hang. Right. And so it's like. You know, for me, Howden and Amadio are perfect examples of, you know, I don't think they could drive a third or a second line on their own. But they're absolutely fine there. They're like completely useful and good and solid in that role.

And I feel like there's still real value there. And I don't feel like we talk about it enough or even have the language to do it within the context of, you know, applying like analytics or whatever to hockey. So let's stick with this analogy. So William Carlson's in the kitchen. and he cooks up a beautiful meal, right? Sure. You trust Michael Amadio to transport that meal from the kitchen to the dinner table

so that Riley Smith can eat. Yeah, yeah. Right? Or at least, or at least like to keep Riley Smith company while he does some damage. Just telling some jokes. Yeah. Do you all, I'm noticing your cup's empty.

Can I get your refill? Yeah, he can hang. Yes. It's like he'll be invited back and he made sure to praise Carlson's cooking. Yeah, but I guess what we're saying, like, I wouldn't necessarily be him as additive. he's just not, he's really not taking stuff off the table necessarily, right?

And so, and I think that is valuable, especially when you find a guy off waivers or, or like, he's making a league minimum and you just bring them in and you're not paying for it. Or if you build out your lineup the way Vegas has, right, which is to try and have, you know, three really strong lines and then a fourth line that you're comfortable playing against just about anybody. I mean, one thing that'll be interesting is if Barkov eats, and a lot of food analogies, I'm clearly hungry, if Barkov eats Eichl's life. If Barkov eats Eichl's lunch again in game four and the series converts back to Vegas to two, like at what point might Vegas have to consider loading up further? Because that's going to be sort of an interesting dynamic. Look, I think Vegas has got enough here that they're going to win this series. There's so many different ways they can beat you, right?

It's not reliant on the one line. And you wouldn't look at this game despite the Eichel Barkov head to heads and say that Vegas should change a single thing? No. Just do it again. I honestly think that game four is going to look a little bit like game six against Dallas did. Yeah, good. I think we're going to see Vegas, you know, really unfurl a pretty significant effort in game. Well, a big part of Vegas or a big part of Eichol's success this postseason has been because William Carlson has been absorbing so much of the defensive responsibility against the best players.

We've been noting like he's getting to feast on lesser competition. Barkov is about his challenging. as it's going to get in that regard. And I do, like, Eichol's still contributing, right? He's creating chances. Even at 5-1-5, he set up a few last night. Obviously, the beautiful pass through like three different sticks. Ludicrous.

To get it to Marsha's O was just the highest level of skill imaginable. And the fact that they have him to do that in the power play, whereas Florida hasn't really been able to execute in that way has been a big difference in the series as well for all to talk about how good they are at 5-1-5. But they're going to need him to break through and score a bit. But I love this. The strength on strength is what the playoffs are kind of all about.

and like seeing Ikel try to break through against Barkov while Barkaw is having a 25 minute performance like he did in game three is just is absolutely phenomenal theater like that's what this is all about right and regardless of who wins it I just want to see it as much as humanly possible and then and then you get the you know Kachuk clutch moment too which is well let's talk a bit about Kachuk and his impact right because he takes the hit from Kolasar yep he stumbles after he gets to still play it on the power play yeah I what's going on I didn't love that after

the game, both him and Paul Marius, I believe, said that the reason he was pulled was because of the concussion spotter, right? Okay. Now, his reaction today hit would certainly, even though he didn't get hit in the head, would lead you to believe that he was dazed, right? Like, it's a very classic, like, you get hit,

there's impact, and then the reaction after, like, he's stumbling, trying to get up. Here's a thing, though. Dazed or winded, but I think when a guy falls down... He pretty clearly had a shoulder injury, though. Right. Not just necessarily, oh, it can only be one or the other, right? You can have the head trauma while also having hurt your shoulder along the way, especially during a fall.

But on the sports I broadcast, they showed on that power play shift before he got pulled from the game. Like, he literally couldn't lift his arm. And then there was a battle along the boards. And he like meekly skated into it with one arm and then tried to poke the puck and then quickly got out of there. Like, he clearly was physically unable to compete in that way, which is very uncharacteristic for a guy who just sticks his nose in those types of, like, traffic areas as much as. possible. Now he came back and he obviously delivered the heroics as late in the game, but that was a very bizarre sort of like handling of it and lack of clarity. And then after the game made me feel even more confused about it. Hopefully both him and Brandon Montour,

who also got hurt at the end of the game are going to be okay, right? Because while we feel like Vegas is the better team here, Florida is certainly capable of sticking around and competing in these games and giving them difficulty. And you want to see them have all of their guys available as as close to maximum capacity as it can be. Yeah. Well, as, you know, and as the odds stack up, right? Like, as it's like, Kachuk is hobbled, Goudis is playing through something, right?

Can't even practice. Montour will see what his status is when the club, I guess probably does morning skate tomorrow. As those odds stack up, the Panthers story in some ways becomes more irresistible, right? Yeah. So it's going to be a, yeah, look, game four, I'm excited because I think we're going to see.

see Vegas's best game of the series. Like I really think we're going to see Vegas's best effort. And it's just a question of whether or not Florida can find a way to, to, you know, hang on with their fingernails here. Because, you know, when Vegas has gotten up, we've seen it. Game two against Winnipeg. We saw it occasionally against the Oilers. We certainly saw it in that sixth game against Dallas. I just think that this team's geared, their top gear is as close to unhittable. They're as close to like skating an opponent off the ice as anything I've seen. scene and I just think we're going to see it game four I'm stoked man kachak is so good though he is so good like his impact in this game which I just wanted to like give love to factor in on all three

florida goals right pass off the wall to mandra for the first one second one he first tips for heggy shot which is a scoring chance then it goes back around he gets the rebound he taps in and then the third one doesn't even get a point but that goal does not really happen without him doing the net drive and kind of at least giving aid and hill and the defender something to think about right and so phenomenal player I really hope he's like able to use both of his arms functionally in game four and it should be a heck of a game

you know he'll play he'll play in a sling if he has to okay Tom let's take our break here and we come back we'll close up our conversation on this series we'll pivot to a few other topics you're listening to the hockeypedio cast streaming on the sports net radio network the most opinionated Canucks show out there

conucks talk with Jamie Dodd and Thomas Drans be sure to subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here on the Hockey PEO cast with Thomas Drands. Tom, before we move on other topics, let's close, let's put a bow on our conversation of this game because, you know, we're watching it now as we're recording. It was a close game, obviously, right, the overtime finish. I don't, it was like actually the least enjoyable game from like an aesthetic perspective

for me so far. Yeah, no question. And it's a frustrating point. part because I think we both agree that it's very annoying when officials get in the way of games by quote unquote putting the whistles away and letting the guys play and all that. And then you have less skilled slower teams sort of leaning on more talented opponents and evening the playing field by taking advantage of that. But then you get games like this where what, there was 11 combined power plays. And I don't know, I could have done without a handful of them. I think like it was a lot

of stuff where I guess by the letter of the law it might be a penalty but it didn't really impact the play and so we don't need to stop the game to do this because it's so beautiful when the game is free flowing and in this game we had 41 of the 65 minutes we're played a 5-on-5 and that's just yeah not enough that's not what that's not what that's not when playoff hockey is that it's best no although it was kind of the last gasp like one thing to track here is the Vegas power play has been so potent and we know because of our buddy cams charon's tracking and work over at the athletic and website, we know that the whistles go, the whistles go away more as the series gets deeper. Yep.

And so it's going to be fascinating to watch that dynamic because I do think we're in for an abrupt shift, whether it's in game four or game five, where we're going to see 58, 56 minutes played at 5-1-5. Which, it's strange to say because I think we both agree that Vegas is the superior 5-1-5 team, yet they've had such a special team's advantage in this series that it feels like if they do put the whistles away, it would theoretically benefit Florida more, even though it would lead to more 5-15 play. Yeah.

I mean, look, Vegas is going to get theirs. Like, that's the thing here, right? I mean, how many 5-on-5 goals did they go into this game with in their-think? I think 56 and 19 games or something? But here's the thing in this series, so this postseason, Vegas had 10 power play goals in 90 minutes in the first three rounds. Yeah. In this series so far, they have six in 26 minutes through these three games.

One of them was an empty-natter, but still. But it's because Bobrovsky's having. way more trouble seeing around Mark Stone than I think anybody could have guessed. I mean, Mark's, like, the way that Bobrovsky's eyes have been taken from him on the power play, I think is extraordinarily good work by Vegas, but also, you know, Ointinger, Stuart Skinner even. Other guys have been able to see around that in a different sort of way over the course of this playoffs. Yeah, well, Florida does, as Jack Con has noted on the show, Florida runs that one-two-one dive,

which leads you exposed down low and gives you the numbers advantage if you get that pass through. And that's what we've seen right on the Eichel pass, various others. Like high-level plays, obviously, but it leads to a lot of Jonathan Marshall's so just hanging out of the circle and just teeing off. And with Mark Stone's butt in Brozky's face, it's also like good luck, right? So that's kind of been, I mean, that has for as much as Vegas is a superior 515 team and has been this postseason, the difference so far in these three games has kind of been execution on the power play, which is something I thought we might see heading into the series,

but just for opposite reasons. Like I thought that Florida might be able to get the better of Vegas there, and it's been the complete opposite. So once again, I mean, this is the beauty of unpredictability of the playoffs, but also from an analyst perspective, it can be pretty frustrating. Yeah, I mean, the Vegas power play looked kind of dead in the water. I also find it amusing that both of these teams penalty killing rates are atrocious over the course of the playoffs.

Right. Like, it's been, I just think that's fun. I guess, yeah, it goes against what we generally believe, right? Goals are great. Okay, so let's talk about two guys on Vegas here, Nick Haig and Nick Wah. And everyone named Nick. Are we having the offer sheet? Because it's going to segue us into super duper early offseason player movement,

kind of concepts in terms of what's happening of the NAA, of concepts from other leagues like the NBA, trickling into the NHL. So we can kind of talk about that. I think it's a good segue rather than just jumping from this series purely into random stuff that has nothing to do with it. So I know where you're going with this, right? Which is that the offer sheet device, right? Like that's what you're talking about, the opportunity cost.

Here's what I want to say. Everyone that is cheering against Vegas is doing so under this misguided notion that the league gave them this team and they're cheating somehow by manipulating the cap. and they've certainly leveraged it to their advantage over the years. But the only people you should be mad at are your own team's GM because guys like Nick Waugh and Nick Haig were just sitting there all of last summer waiting to be offer sheeted because they're good players. They'd put enough on tape for me to feel like they could do better in a bigger role,

both in that sort of 24 to 26 year old range. And an offer sheet of up to 4.29 million last summer would have cost you a second round pick comp to get them. And Vegas had zero, like, plausible way of matching that. Like, they just could not have happened. And so teams just allowed. Now, obviously, the player has to sign. Players like to play in Vegas.

There's all of that. I'm sure. I'm sure. But you can't tell me that if a team loved Nick Waugh as, like, a six-foot-four, two-way center who has even more untapped playmaking ability, that they couldn't have, if they had offered him 4.3 million, for five years that he would have said no because he liked Vegas's $3 million offer instead. Like I just don't buy that as an argument.

People make that argument in bad faith because I don't know. They want to believe that teams aren't just not making offer sheets for like, you know, reasons of relationship management or I guess that's the polite way of saying collusion. But let's be real. If that was the reason, like if every player in the NHL hate it, money that much, it would be a pretty interesting departure from how every other human being on the planet conducts their own business. And maybe. Well, also, Vegas is like, the player would have had to sign it. I like, why do we always hear that is the reason that a, that it's,

it's wild stuff. Well, also that that, that collusion idea of like, well, you know, you don't want to upset the other team. Meanwhile, like, what do we talk about Vegas all the time? They're just ruthlessly at any cost trying to improve their team every single offseason. and meanwhile you're just letting them keep good players for less than their worth. Well, look, we had this discussion around the Tampa Bay Lightning where everyone was upset about the Nikita Kutrov LTI thing, right? And the Markstone LTI thing is the same thing. And, you know, that was after a summer in which Ross Colton, Surgishev, Sirelli, and Sernak all similarly sat around waiting. Yeah.

And ended up signing, you know, 4.25. for CERNAC. Like, come on. That's a steal. Right, but at least in that case, like, Tampa Bay was coming off of a Stanley Cup, right? That was that summer. So you could at least be like, all right, well, listen, like, you want to, like, win a Stanley Cup. Well, and it was, and it was the fall. Vegas is coming off a year where they missed the playoffs. Obviously, like, extreme number of injuries and all that. They were unlucky. But still, like, I think it's a different context even in that regard. I just think at the end of the day, efficiently used offer sheets should be used to mess with your opponents as much as to actually land.

Well, especially like that kind of like a cascading poison pill one, right? Whereas if the two guys are available, you give a big one on one. And it's like, all right, if you want to tie it up here, all right, now we're just go get the other guy. For sure. And I'd add this. Like the, you know, Michael McLeod, right? New Jersey Devils played fourth line minutes, right-handed centerman, way more skill to the

eye. Like the skill that he shows on tape pops in a way his count. stats do not. Darry mentioned is a 60% face-off guy. This is like, this is the bet you want to place, in my view, if you want to try and find the next NICWA or maybe even Wild Bill, right? Like you want the fourth line guy who you think can be an awful lot more than that for your team.

Like that's the concept of the expansion process. Right. Guys benefiting from being in a new environment with added opportunity. Right. Yeah. The best way to land that guy is the offer sheet bet where you value him at a level that his current team isn't ready to yet or can't afford to yet. Now, do you, okay, do you think that it is actually because teams are scared of stepping on one of their 31 competitors' toes? Or do you think it's a fact that pro scouting in the NHL probably isn't where it needs to be?

I think it's like, do you think like Michael McLeod is actually being valued enough because if a team felt as highly about him as you or I do, and we're just using him as a kind of oxy-plice conversation, like, Nick Wall last summer as well. Like, if you fall in love with that player, it just seems absolutely preposterous to me that you wouldn't go above and beyond to get him for a second round pick if you felt like he could be your second-line center of the future, right? So even your high-end third-line center of the future, like,

where else are you getting that player for $3 million? Come on. Like, Pius'uters, what, going to be a $4 million player? Like, I mean, I mean, the, the value of landing a guy with that profile at the age of 25, to me, that's a no-brainer. I mean, in this series, Vegas, Nick Hague leads Vegas in 515 Ice Time. And I think Nick was on the fourth line, like, wildly overqualified. We've seen him play on the second line.

And he's great. It's postseason, his versatility in playmaking at 6-4 is just like, ludicrous. It's the type of thing where you would think an NHLGM would be just drooling over it. And so I don't, yeah, I don't, it's tough to reconcile all of these things at once. I think there's a lot of things going on, but I do think it's fundamentally like ingrained conservatism. And the fact that, you know, I do think teams within the NHL environment struggle sometimes. And this is, I think Vegas's edge and I'd add Bill Zito's.

I think both of these gems who are playing in the final are good at this. Like I do think GMs struggle sometimes to act in their own self-interest. I really do think there's a collectivist. Well, you don't want to get a nasty text message from one of your buddies running another team. name, right? No, I know. It's ludicrous. Yeah. Okay, well, let's segue into this, then. Do you want to talk a little bit? We can do Pierre-Luc-Bah. We can do Alex De Brincat. We can do any number of sort of guys who are theoretically available. Why don't we do the news of the day? Why don't we do Damon Severson? And then circle back to Dubois and DeBronk it, because I do think there's a pretty classic link between the two, which is, you know, when you think of the Tanner-Genot trade, and this was the first time it really

occurred to me. Like the NHL trade deadline transpires, you know, as NBA trade season was up. And, you know, I kept looking at these NBA trades and seeing like five second round picks. And I'm like, what that? Yeah. And that has no basis in hockey. And then the Tampa Bay Lightning do the Tanner Geno trade.

And it's like, that's an NBA deal. Yeah. Well, they were like, here's an entire year's worth of draft. Yeah. I mean, maybe it was more like the Ricky Williams. Right. but it was, you know, it felt like an NBA deal in terms of the scale of it, in terms of the way that those draft picks were valued by a, by a contender.

And then we get to, you know, today and like, we got a sign and trade. We got a real sign and trade where a team effectively loaned an extra year, an extra year. To keep the AAB down, right? Right. And returned, you know, usually these are the rights for these players trade for a fifth or a third or a fourth. And it feels like they upgraded the value of the pick they got back. for a guy they weren't going to sign anyway to a third for their trouble, which was no trouble at all. I mean, look, I like, I'm a good business for New Jersey.

It'll be extra good business for New Jersey if they repeat the process with Ryan Graves. Yes. Like if they, if they come out of this, having walked on from both of those guys and return multiple mid-rounders, it's just going to be like, that's brilliant. But that's an NBA deal. It is. That's an NBA deal. Now, the NBA has really creative predatory offer sheets. So that's the next step here.

But we've also got Pierre-Luc Dubois and Alex DeBrinquette bringing that like player power dynamic to their last year of restricted free agency, effectively exercising what NBA analyst Jalen Rose once dubbed pre-agency. So we've got the pre-agent trend now coming to the league. And I think that one's fascinating, especially to have Matthew Kachuk do it last summer and now DeBrinke it. and Pierre-Luc Dubois, I think it poses some really difficult questions about maintaining your team, maintaining star players if you're in a Canadian market like Ottawa, Calgary, or Winnipeg. I think that's one part of the discussion. I also think it poses some really difficult questions for teams in terms of like if there's going to be a conveyor belt now, where prior to hitting unrestricted free agency, players regularly. shake loose in this manner, does that change the sorts of assets and flexibility that you should maintain so as to be the team that's capable of getting Jack Eichel, that's capable of getting Matthew

Kachuk that's capable of keeping your powder dry, right? Yeah. Yeah, especially if you're in a desirable market, right, like a bigger market where you would think a young, young star would like to play their mid-20s, right? Yeah, I think of a team like L.A. is really interesting. I think we already saw this a little bit and then benefit from it last summer with Kevin Fiala, right? Where at the time, it was clear that Minnesota wasn't going to be able to retain them mostly as well because of their own cap complications. But then there was this idea floated out.

It's like, well, Kevin Fiala's a really good player. So all of these other teams are interested. Look at this market. Right? And it was like, I remember Ottawa was linked to him, even New Jersey, all these other teams. And in reality, he was like, he told his agent, I'm only going to L.A. Right.

And so being that type of, and then L.A. is, of course, then able to be like, all right, well, we have the cap space, we have the draft capital and a prospect will give you favor and a first. And we can absorb him and pay him what he wants, and it's a win-win.

And a prospect who feels similarly about signing in Minnesota. Right. So that was a uniquely well-suited deal between those two teams. But yeah, I mean, that's interesting. Because Fiala effectively already called his shot too,

and we don't even lump him in because it happened under the radar. It did. But it's also, I mean, like these reports are kind of amusing to me because, I mean, a similar thing happened with Kachuk, I think, where I think he probably would have been open to maybe the blues, but a lot of the other teams that were like technically on his short list, I have a hard time believing it was more of a, let's kind of save face by making it seem like he's not really backing his existing team into a corner.

right? So it's kind of like a PR move. I think that happens much more as well, because you see the Debrinkat one, right? And Pierre LeBron, and it was like, oh, well, you know, Dallas, I assume would be on his list and stuff. It's like, okay, even, he might want to go to Dallas. There's just no possible roadmap for that actually happening. So playing that out as a potential scenario just seems like it's purely PR

because it's not actually based in reality. Right. That's not a realistic suitor for it. All right, let's keep moving. So, yeah, no, it's, well, I think what's been funny about this, too, is the way that it's trickling out, right? So these are Canadian markets, right? We've got Jeff Jackson and we've got CAA, so Pat Brouson and J.P. Barry. And, you know, in both cases, right, there's a list. There's a list. It's not long.

Players not going to sign there. Released in a certain way, you know, it's a fascinating thing to watch because these situations really do now feel like they're unfolding with a playbook. And I do think that's the Kachuk legacy. Does Kachucks, here's a question for you, does Kachukes, right out of the gate for Florida. Change whether or not a team, not on the signing list, should do it as a rental. In retrospect, would it have been worth it for, let's pick, I don't know, who fell short short in the playoffs, Toronto. Would it have been worth it in retrospect for Toronto to come to the table in that

Cacheck situation and offer, Neelander Sandin? to try and rent Kachuk. Right. Like, this is obviously pure hindsight. Right. With the benefit of pure hindsight, would that have made sense for them? It's tricky because the unpredictability or volatility of the playoffs as well. Totally.

Like, it makes no one player really... Kachuk would certainly move the needle significantly for Florida. We're seeing, like, literally all the overtime goals and clutch. Yeah, yeah. Heroics he's had this postseason and how good he was this regular season. for them and just changing the culture and all that. But it's really tough no matter if you're already a contender and let's say you finish first in your conference the previous year and you're like, all right, we're going

to try to win a Stanley Cup this year. No one addition is going to make you feel actually confident that you will win a Stanley Cup. And then if you run into a goalie or something and lose it, it's in round two again. And then you have nothing to show for it. That's a really difficult Pilt as well. Now, I'm always all for trying to win a Stanley Cup if it's within your window. And what's the story of the Kachukh trade if Chicago simply loses to Pittsburgh in the last week of the season.

Right? I mean, we'd be talking. But no, but I'm still, but in this case, right, it's like this was a long-term play as well. It's a 24-year-old. We're going to have them at a good price for a year. I'm talking about the short, I'm talking about, is it worth? Right. For a one year, try to win a cup.

Yeah. I mean, obviously it depends on the acquisition cost and you have to kind of factor that in. But I don't know. So I think the list component of this is very interesting to me because I do believe that, while like I don't think Dallas is a realistic landing spot for DeBinket, I do believe that, like he would be open to many more teams than a peer, Luke Dubois, who really has seen, he's been like telegraphing Montreal,

and then it's an interesting thing where it's kind of, it's like, if you're Montreal, do you just not risk it and then pay a bit of extra just to make sure you secure the asset? Yeah, you do. Or do you wait till free agency and then bring them on? You, when you're this far out, when you're like 12 months out,

just pay to get it done, don't risk it. Obviously, it's different at like the deadline. Or acquiring a guy's rights, But, no, I think, I think if you're, I think, secure the good player. I would say, I would say fundamentally, I think the rental model for Matthew Kachuk is a fun thought exercise. But it, but I just runs also so counter like how NHL teams operate, though. Push your assets into extending your window. Like, this is why, like, from the perspective of the Severson deal, I liked the Proverrov deal for Columbus.

I was one of the few that did. But the Severson deal far exceeds my risk tolerance because of the term involved. you know, when you get... So what are you trying to accomplish? Totally. Well, but no, but for me, for me, I don't have a problem with bringing in a player. I don't have a problem with getting good players.

If when you're in a rebuilding situation like the Columbus Blue Jackets are, you've set yourself up to do it without limiting the ceiling of your core. Like because Proverrov is affordable and the deal is short and they had surplus draft capital, right? I don't have a problem with getting a player

you think will retain valid. or bring real value to you at the cost that they did it. But once you commit to Severson through his age 36 season, right? And now we're looking at 15 million committed for the next four years to like Merz-Leekins, Good Branson, and Severson. Yeah. That begins to be like, that's going to limit your ability to shoot yourself out of the muck, you know, once you're Kent Johnson's and your cylinders and your, you know, Leo Carlson's start to hit.

But the thing that I just don't like is like, I just think there's this fundamental misconception. where all of these teams operate under these guys of, well, we make splashes in the offseason. We're like not terrible next season. That's going to, we're throwing our fans a bone. And then I'm sure Columbus fans are excited now. The games are going to start. Reality is going to sink in where they're at best going to be like the 10th best team in the Eastern Comberman's or something. Yeah.

And ends to be like, all right, well, what are we ultimately accomplished here? Whereas I'm much more in favor of like losing but doing so in a, in a, plucky fun way where you're like establishing the vibes kind of like what buffalo did this year what new jersey did previously and then trying to time your window accordingly to actually be good as opposed to aiming to be the 10th best team in your conference i when like i liked the prover off trade yeah we get it tommy but but but i didn't realize until the severson deal yeah that the Philadelphia Flyers had sent their vibes to Columbus in the package. It's like Daniel Breyer bundled the short-term thinking desperation and sent it to Yarmot

Keklin. Well, that's a thing. I think what I don't mind any of these moves in isolation. I was like, and also like I'm all for getting better players, but just at what cost in terms of what it signals for your actual objectives. And it's like hiring Mike Babcock doing all these moves. Yeah. It's a fun.

It's just wreaks of desperation or an organization that is. Not limiting its ceiling, but also not actually trying to win a Stanley Cup in 20, 28 or something. Right. It's like just trying to be relevant or whatever the definition of that is in the next couple years. Well, the teams that everyone knows aren't close trying to be relevant is always fun. We're wrapping, right? Yep. I just wanted to say, thanks for having me.

And in case you didn't know, I'm a big fan of the pro for out of trade. Tom, I will let you plug some stuff, let the listeners know what you've been working on. Because you've been doing more national stuff, which I love to see. I think I don't want to see you wasting all of your talents on covering the Vancouver Canucks. So give me a little spiel here on what you've been working on before they can check you. Come check out my work at theathletic.com. Obviously, Canucks talk coming up next with Jamie Dodd. My co-host wrote a big Connor Baudard feature over at the Athletic this week that I thought was a lot of fun.

And I've got some stuff about how much I like the proverroft trades. So you can enjoy that as well. All right, buddy. Keep up the great work. We're going to have you back on again soon. That's it for another week of the PDO cast. Everyone enjoy Saturdays game four. We'll be back on Monday to talk about it and the rest of that series.

Looking forward to that. In the meantime, thank you for listening to the HockeyPediocast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.