The Hockey PDOcast - Game 4 Takeaways, How to Create Goals, and the Goalie Position

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

Sean Shapiro joins Dimitri to talk about Game 4 of the Stanley Cup Final, the brilliance of the Golden Knights defensive approach, how goals have been created in this series, and the evolution (or lack thereof) of the goalie position.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey-Pedocast. My name is Dimitri Philopovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Sean Shapiro, live from Vegas. Sean, what's going on, man? Not much, man, I've got the, probably one of the more, no one else can see this, only you can. But I got one of the more boring backgrounds in Vegas, just the inside of a hotel room. So I could have done much better for you, so I apologize.

Yeah, it's okay. It's an audio format, right? So we'll let it slide this time. We've got the extra day off between games four and five. We're going to put it to use today. We're going to talk about Saturday nights game four, look ahead a bit to game five. Might be the last day before the game of the 2020 season.

And on the one hand, I don't know how you feel about this. On the one hand, for me, it's June 12th. It's like really nice and hot these past couple days here in Vancouver. I'm like, you know what? I'm like ready for summer mode. But at the same time, I desperately hate change.

And so the idea of there being no more hockey and totally having to change my schedule in that way is throwing me off a bit. So it's taken me for a bit of an emotional roller coaster ride just kind of sitting back here in the past 48 hours and being like, is this going to be the last game of the 2020 season? Yeah, I always want the, like, you're right about the emotional roller coaster because it's, it's June 12th. It's like, it's, I always, growing up, like this past, my dad,

had always played in the soccer tournament in upstate New York. And every year, it was one of those things where, like, I remember I would watch the cup get awarded there. And it would always be like June 7th. Like the cup would be like, for me, it would always be like June 7th was like, like June 7th through 10th. Like it's like the cup would already be. And so for me, it's always like to be going, when we're starting to get close to June 15th, it starts to feel like, okay, how are we stretched out this far? So I just want, I just really want it to be a good game. Like, like, just like, that's, that's my biggest thing. Like, if Vegas wins, that's great.

They'll celebrate the cup. If Florida wins, we get another hockey game. I just really want tomorrow night to be one less good hockey game. I don't want what I fear. It could be of a, just a end of that L.A., New Jersey series from, what, eight years ago or whatever it was, where the final game wasn't a hockey game and it was just a coronation. Well, we finally, we were almost getting there to, it's the end of game four, right?

Because it was the natural environment where Vegas went up three nothing, but the game wasn't out of hand yet. And then Florida at home was mounting the comeback. They cut it to three, two. They had a while there where they had a chance to go for a tie and goal. And then obviously the chaos at the end of the game. So we were almost getting there. Maybe in game one, you could say like the first, actually pretty much all of game one was

was fun, right? It was played at a high event style, fast pace. There weren't too many penalties. It was pretty evenly played for otherwise. even game three, which Florida won, that was not a good performance. It's been very one-sided, in my opinion, through these four games in the aggregate. And so maybe that's it. It's like there's so much attrition getting to mid-June with all the miles that these teams have put on their bodies,

especially the way Florida played and the path they had to take to get here. I know that the Eastern Conference final was a four-game sweep, but it was about as taxing of a sweep as you're going to get. And then they get the 10 days off, whatever. But, you know, it's such a marathon that getting to this point. point, it's like the Stanley Cup final is the pinnacle of the sport, right? It's like, these are the two best teams. They're playing for what all 32 teams start the season, try and a vie for. And then the actual quality of the games themselves isn't really reflective of that. Right. Like, if you're tuning in, you're like, all right, let's see what this,

what this NHL has to offer us. These are two best teams that are playing for the title. It's like, oh, it's not, not the best product. I'd say, I'd say certainly probably round one of the postseason feels like, it's the perfect distillation of what you actually want from this sport. Well, and like a Chuck potential injury, right? Like, I fully expect Chuck to play tomorrow.

I don't move the potential or alleged or whatever. But whatever. But whatever. Like just even that to me is just like, so I've got, like my uncle actually lives out here in Vegas and is a big hockey fan. But he only pays attention to Vegas, right?

That's how most hockey fans are. And so, but imagine, like him and I were talking about the other night where all, all of a sudden, someone who is tunes in tonight, like, oh, I could see the Stanley Cup one tonight. I don't watch, if somebody's watching into the NHL the same way I tune in, way I personally tune into the NBA, where I only really kind of, I watched during the final, but that's about it. All of a sudden, you're like, oh, I hear this Matthew Kachuk guy, is one of the best players

in the league. He's got personality. And then game five, he's going to play like 12 minutes and it's going to be like ECHL's power play specialist style. Like, it's, now that's out of our control, but it's almost a frustrating. fitting way to how this series has been played out where it's like it's hockey but it's I mean well he had the he had the heroics in game three right I think that delivered certainly yeah game four though I didn't watch the T&D broadcast I was watching the the local uh Canadian

feed here in Sportsnet and most of the third period was spent with like a kachuk isso gam of like him on the bench though just like looking like he wanted to hop over the boards but then yeah just chewing on his mouth guard and not actually playing and and it does kind of suck that that's what it's gotten to here with that injury right where he pretty clearly can't lift one arm and he's just getting through and they're saving him for these situational minutes like they did at the end of the game but yeah we'll see let's let's talk about game four then as a whole right we've had a bit of time here to sort of digest it it was you know that second period in particular where Vegas turns up the heat tightens the screws

and just buzz saws through you like the level they're able to hit when they're playing that way is frightening. And it was thoroughly dominant. And that's that's the best way I think I could describe it. Right. Like it was it was they were pretty much completely dictating the game doing whatever they wanted just getting chance after chance. And you know, Bobovsky in these past two games in particular, I've been critical in this postseason. I think he's played really, really well in these two games. It could have gotten significantly more out of hand than the two games in Florida did, and they didn't purely just because he was actually making some legitimate grade A saves. But otherwise, I mean, Florida did wind up coming back into it and at least

adding some late game drama, but for the most part, like that that encapsulation of that second period of Vegas was what that team is kind of all about when they're at their very best. Yeah, I mean, it was, there was the kind of, without Bobrovsky, the third, the third, the third, the, the, the third, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, It was, it would be like game two essentially, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. It was, yeah, it was, I mean, there was, what, two, two or three posts.

There was, Bobrowski made some really big saves. Like, I mean, it was, you watched, like, I think I said something during the game. I think I haven't tweeted it or it's like, like, it's game four just kind of felt like the, the second period of game four was kind of the moment where it's like Vegas is like, I'm done playing with my food. I just, I just want to get this over with. Like, that's, like, that's what it felt like. And the third period, Florida had, it was a nice drama, but it wasn't ever, like, there's yet to be more than a short stretch in this series where you've ever been like, yeah, I could see Florida winning the cup.

Like, I've never had that moment, like in this series. Maybe game one when Eric Stahl opened the scoring with the shorthanded goal. You're like, all right, that won nothing. That was the moment where I'm like, oh, man, is Aiden Hill going to, is Aiden Hill good enough to win the cup? That was more of that discussion on the stall goal, but that's, well, here's, okay, here's, here's the story of this series for me. The scoring chances by my account as the series gone along game by game. Yeah. Game one, 18 to 16 for Vegas.

It was a really close game in my opinion. Game two, 22 to 16 of Vegas, which isn't necessarily that one-sided, but it is when you consider that half the game was spent with like score effects being heavily in Florida's favor. Game three, 17 to 9 for Vegas. Game 4, 18 to 6 for Vegas. Florida in the past two games at home, down 2-0 with their season on the line, has generated 15 scoring chances combined in six plus periods with the five minutes over time for whatever in game three. And they've scored the five goals in that time, a couple of sort of, hey, it's hockey.

There's going to be a random bounce goals there along the way that have helped fuel that. But it doesn't even matter if Aided Hill. is good enough to win the Stanley Cup. And he will hear, it's just a matter of whether it's in five or six. But it's totally besides the point. And then we're going to see a lot of retconning here, right, where it's like, this is the story of the postseason. Like, what a run.

Aiden The Hill right now is second now by a wide margin. Jonathan Marshall is the heavy favorite for the Kahn's mit. But he's second, right? And that is just not reflective of what's going on in these games. Like he's been good. He's made some big saves when he's been called upon. but it is about as favorable environment as you're going to ask for. I mean, get more into the details here and the nitty-gritty of it.

But, man, I mean, 15 scoring chances in two games at home for Florida. Like, that is, that's just wild to think about how stingy Vegas has been in where they're letting them get shots from. It's like the, I mean, it's, it's almost, it's almost like we're seeing the NHL's version of like that late night beer league game where like the one team is clearly. the best team in the league and they get all the guys that show up but then the other team has the really good goalie and is a bit lucky and has like 11 guys who work hard and so you feel like the game's closer but you're watching you're watching and you're like I mean this is just some guys

who work hard versus some guys who actually should be here and that's really what it feels down to and it's it feels like you don't want to like grab on what the panthers have done to get here it's a great story and all that stuff. But at the same time, like, normally hockey is a sport where we don't see the better team, where the game doesn't always reflect the better team. Like sometimes, and this series has been one where the result has clearly reflected. It's been more MBA-like, where it's been pretty clear, one team is clearly the better team. And I'm not sure if that's a good thing. It's not a great thing for TV broadcasters trying to sell drama on it, but for a, from a team building perspective,

I think at least better lessons can be taken from this as opposed to, well, hot goalie gets you there. Well, they can be. I don't know if they will be, as we can talk more about in a little bit here. Yes, yes. Yeah, I don't view it that way at all in terms of taking anything away from Florida.

I know you're not there clearly, but like the alternative of Carolina being the Eastern Conference representative, they might have like negative three goals through these four games, just based on the way. they generate their offense against this Vegas defense. I thought Florida, you know, certainly some favorable bounces, some good luck, things come together,

which is true of any postseason run, even whether it's a Cinderella or a favorite, like you need some stuff to go your way along the way. I thought there was full marks getting to this point. This series has just cemented that Vegas is the class of the league this postseason, right? It wasn't necessarily as obvious at points throughout the regular season. because they never really had a full lineup and they were kind of working their way to getting to this point.

But ever since the postseason started, that has been true. And they were, you know, to be fair, the number one seat in the West in the regular season as well. So it's not like this is out of nowhere, but the level they've played at consistently throughout this post season where even if they have had a down game, right?

And they had a couple in Edmonton in that series in round two, you know, game one against Winnipeg in round one. I thought the game, what was it? four we have game five in the stars series at home i didn't think they were very good yeah they immediately followed all of those with very definitive performances right and this one they blow the game three and you're like oh like is the has this planted the seat of doubt what's going to happen here and they come out and just absolutely throttle florida for the first 40 minutes before florida

clause back in it a little bit and that was like that resolve or that resiliency being able to bounce back from a subpar performance and then give your a game has been a trademark of this team this postseason and that's just been the case here in this series as well 100% I mean it's it's this this Vegas team is the like I was talking to um what was I was talking it was uh King Cole said before I thought I was going to say just be like a awesome high ranking no no no no no I was just trying to remember which player it was because I was talking I was talking to for one of the things one of the stories that I haven't written yet but I kind of either it runs between game four, game either runs either post series or between game five and six was just talking

about how one of the reasons this, I was talking to Vegas defensemen and Vegas forwards about how, with how this team is built, there's not a different job for each line. And I think that's something that too often that happens. Like I was talking to Alec Martinez about how he said, it doesn't matter which forward group is on the line, the defenseman's job changes. So it doesn't change. It doesn't change with Vegas. And there's other teams where obviously we know that changes where if and for some some reason's good, some reason's bad. Like in Edmonton, Connor McDavid should have a different job than everyone else. Like that's that that's okay. But for other teams like the Florida defensemen who obviously players are very protective of their teammates and everything like that, but the Florida defensemen are not going to basically admit.

Well, we, we really, we wish Barkoff could play 60 minutes a night. Like they're not they're not going to they're not going to go rip on their teammates. And so this this Vegas team though, so the job doesn't change. And even when and they dealt with their own kind of like adversity, they got their in-season adversity dealing with the injuries and everything like that. It was, I mean, they had 109 points or whatever it was despite dealing with all the injuries in season. And then kind of that last, the worst thing that anyone, the worst thing that Florida, that Dallas did for Florida was

Dallas deciding to was basically Dallas coming back and winning game 4 and 5 to me was the was the last little resolve warning adversity that vague like the only way to me

Florida was in this series if they were going to catch Vegas right after like an easy sweep just getting right after yeah yeah but so Dallas basically coming back to win game four and five it basically it gave Bruce Cassidy, it gave Vegas, basically everything to see, like, look, okay, let's just put these guys out of their misery. And that's what they've been doing. Like, it's, I mean, they should, they should have won the cup already.

Like, Bobrowski stole game three. The cup, we shouldn't be in Vegas right now. Yeah. Yeah, well, especially since their game has predicated so much on kind of attention to detail as well, right? And so, like, resharpening that focus and getting, getting ready. Not, like, entering the Stanley Cup final, it's also, it's kind of weird to be like, oh, are they going to, you know, sleep, walk in here and be caught off guard because it's the Stanley Cup final. But, you know, I get what you're saying from that regard.

I mean, you know, so I mentioned the 15 scoring chances in these final two games for Florida. Here's another stat for you that really, I think, shows or demonstrates the problem Vegas' defensive scheme is giving them and why these numbers have been the way they have. So Florida's shot redistribution at 515 in terms of what percentage of the team's overall shots their defensemen are taking. I noted that in the Eastern Conference Final against Carolina, they were only taking 32% of the shots. And to me, that reflected the difference between them and Carolina in terms of approach

and in terms of how they had changed their game or even guys like Radco Gudis, who used to be very trigger-happy from the point, were all of a sudden now passing up shots to funnel the puck either into the slot or back down below the boards and allow Matthew Kachuk to operate from there, right? And that was a much more efficient way of generating their offense. So 32% in the East Final. in this series, defensemen on the Panthers are taking 46% of their shots. And in the last two games, 55% of the shots that the Panthers have taken have come from

their defensemen. And to me, that's what happens when you play the Golden Knights, right? You come in with good intentions in terms of, all right, we've played a certain way, this is what we're going to do. Then you start playing against them and you realize that they just without fail, pack the slot, have that attention to detail, just sit around there and, force you to kind of play with your food on the perimeter and then eventually settle for bad shots. And at some point, maybe through trial and error, but at some point, it's like the

realization sinks into you that, oh, we're not going to be able to get to where we want on the ice in the offensive zone. Like this is not going to happen for us. And then you just start playing into their hands by just taking those perimeter point shots, which they've done so much more in these last two games that they did at the start of the series. And that's a testament, I think, more so to Vegas and the problems they give them than being like, oh, Florida's not playing this right? Because I just think they have no other tactical recourse. Like they just have no problem solving ability or ways that they can get through this.

Like no one else has that's played Vegas. And so, man, what a, what a masterclass defensively by Vegas in terms of having this system and then executing it throughout this postseason. And these last two games in particular have really, I think, just highlighted that for everyone. And I think that's, I think that is an interesting story to tell. Maybe it's tougher on, on a broadcast for a play-by-play guy in color commentator to get into this. But I think, like, if you're interested in hockey, this team's ability to execute this in a sport where what's the most common complaint we hear all the time? Well, hockey's too fast and chaotic.

Like, you can't really micro-analyze it and break it down like other sports. Like, it's just much more random. And there's nothing random about this. Like, this is a coherent plan that's being executed to perfection. and to me that is very satisfying. Yeah, Vegas has rescued the blocked shot, basically. Like, because for so often we would hear, like, oh, this guy blocks a lot. Like, it was, like, it was the whole, it was always the Chris Russell argument, right?

Like, he blocks a ton of shots, but he never has the puck. Like, that was all, like, and it's one of those where Vegas has kind of from a, has shown, for an example, that when you're applying content, important context of things and everything like that, like, when, And it's what, 61 block shots combined between the past two games. Never once did I look down and think, oh, man, they're blocking too many shots because they don't have the puck. No, it's every single time, it's by design. They're like, okay, you want to shoot from out there?

Fine. I'll block that shot. And with how good Vegas is at layering and structuring that, even if something does get through, even if a shot does get through the block, it's coming through where there's so much time. from the point of the block to the time it gets to the goalie, where it's not like the goalie's like, oh, oh, crap,

I got to take a quick adjustment to a, to a bad deflection three feet in front of my net. Like, it's, it's, it is, you said a master class. It's a master class defensively.

And it's, like, that is, it's, Vegas has rescued the block shot as a, as a, as, it used to be more of like,

oh, well, block shots are bad because they have the puck. Well, Vegas has flipped that narrative. And, uh, once again it goes back to how does everyone use that going forward which will be fascinating but it's

it is masterclass i think you've got you hit the word right there yeah it is and and you know we focus on the on the predictability of like all right well if you play this way you know exactly where the shots will wind up coming from we use that as um to point to like why it's easier for aden hill it must be easier for the skaters as well though right because there's a level of predictability to all right the puck's going to go over here, and then you're going to have time to get there and block that shot or reroute it or make it a less dangerous one for our goalie to stop,

even if it does get through. And so that makes it life easier for everyone. Obviously, it's easier than done. I think most coaches would probably want their players to do that. It's like, oh, well, you know, we have the system. We execute it. It's easier for everyone. Yeah, let's do that.

You need the personnel, obviously, to pull it off. But yeah, just what they're doing in that regard has been has been fascinating. I've got, you know, shots blocked in the series at 97 to 54 for Vegas. And a lot of them, too, are also like when the puck does get into these high danger areas for Florida, how many times can you remember like an actual clean look from in tight, right? It's like always rushed or forced like wide or something that they're hearing the footsteps of the Vegas defenders. None of it is, none of it is easy. And even, even like we think block shots, we think of fourth, bottom six guys or whatever. Like it was the, um, I, I,

don't remember who had the, I think it, maybe it was Barcove, but Eichl had the block. It was, there was a, like, there was the little, there was the slot. It was the, it was the, it would have been the first period. No. Yeah, for, I think it was first period in Florida. Um, and basically one of those chances where Barcove has a chance coming down, cuts across, good chance to create a, create a shot. And Ikel gets the block where it looked, it was one of those where, like, at first glance, you're like, did he take out the pitching wedge or was it blocked? And it was one of those where Ikel got the, the sticking on the block. But there's, there's so many little, like, we talk about the structure of it that creates all this, but even the kind of the full team dedication to getting it on that. And I imagine this Vegas team, I think we've seen it in the playoffs. One of the reasons this team is built for playoff hockey is that Vegas blocking your shot and doing that. If you're playing over a course of an 82 game season, there's not a mental, like, hey, they've been doing this to me three games. I got to shoot right away. I think part of the reasons this team is a quote unquote playoff team is the way their shot blocking wears you down over the course of a

series. I think we saw it against Dallas. Winnipeg series was never really close. But I mean, I think we've seen it this series where after playing, you play them one game and you could be like, oh man, that was tough. You can move on to the next one. But when you're playing the same team over and over again. It just starts to creep in and it starts to become that space where it's like the, well, they almost start to beat you before they step on the ice with it. Yeah, there's a predictability for the opponent too, where they know that they're going to get beaten that way, and that must be even more frustrating. Yeah, I mean, and then, you know, from Florida's perspective, the injuries, I mean, obviously it goes without saying it haven't

helped, but they've kind of expedited the process or sort of shine a brighter light on an already existing issue heading in, right, where you don't have loose through an in and they're series, Kachuk gets hurt. And so Kachuk plays, what, 1640 in game four? A couple shifts in the third period, maybe four or five total. And so Paul Maurice goes to different line combinations in game four, right? He bark off, especially as the games going on, I thought played a fantastic game of hockey. Like he was all over it.

It felt like every time he was on ice, something good was happening for Florida. So they put him with that new look, Ryan Hart-Lundell line, right? they put for Hage and Bennett with Kachuk Limited. It's like either him or or Anthony Duclair, who also missed a bit of time in this game. But what that did is, I was about to say, are you going to list a third line?

Because they basically went to two lines. Exactly. I know, but that's what I'm saying, where guys, this gets talked about a lot on like all the basketball podcasts I listen to where there's certain players that can work in certain playoff series, but the beauty or the agony,

depending on your perspective, postseason run is that certain matchups come along where guys just get played out of the rotation or played off the floor like you just eventually the coach you realize all right i can't i can't use this guy the way i had been using him previously and in this series i mean all those guys are like the fourth line right with like Colin white and Zach delpi they're using eric stall because they mix and match him and they use him in special teams and stuff but none of those guys have really been able to play in this series. And then Nick Cousins as well, as a result of this, essentially gets eliminated from this

game. And so you're left with six forwards. You really trust if you're Palmaries. And that's a big problem because even if you think that Vegas's fourth lines impact is a bit overblown, it's like, all right, whatever, it's still just a fourth line. They're probably not actually going to score on you. They legitimately have like three first lines. And so if you're only using two yourself, there's going to become a point where

one of that like Stone Stevenson, Carlson Smith or Ico Barbership, Marsha, so gets out there against players you're not comfortable having on the ice against them. And there's just no working around that. Eventually, they're going to take advantage of that. And you're seeing that. Like, they just, you know, in game four with with guys like Stahl or Longberg on the ice, Florida was getting absolutely caved in. And at some point, especially if you're down, you just realize, all right, well, these guys are not only struggling, but they're not going to generate a goal for us. So you tighten the bench. you're using five or six guys.

And at that point, it's kind of over for you. I mean, it's how many teams can, and I know orders of line rushes and before the game is always ridiculous to read too much into. But like Mark Stone is the third line right winger or whatever when Vegas takes line rushes before the game. Like that's, that to me tells you everything about not everything, but that that gives a pretty good indication of what you're dealing with when all of a sudden, with all respect to Zedatalkalpian Ryan Lomburg, that's who's lining up on the other side at that same

time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, uh, it's really showed itself in the series. Is there, um, anything else from game four in particular you wanted to get to that you think we should touch on before we go to break here? I mean, I had, I had a note on the officiating as well, just because we always complain about about lack of consistency and going from 11 power plays, which I complained about after game three, because I thought it totally zapped the flow of that game.

to one and a half in game four, with like one throughout and then the last one in the final 30 seconds on the puck over glass. I didn't even think the two games were necessarily like played discernibly differently by the two teams, which I think is the problem. Like it's not one of those things where,

all right, well listen, the refs drew a hard line in game three showed the players what's going to fly and what won't. And so the players reacted accordingly and it worked because in game four, they really tightened it up. and they played a much more disciplined game. I don't think that's the case.

I think they were very similar stylistically. It just one game, the refs chose to call 11 power plays, and the other one, they didn't. And that's just, that's the problem. The thing I hate about, and I hope I'm wrong, but the thing I can easily see it happening because it's the NHL, the thing I hate is I hate that there's going to be some officiating meeting this, and someone's just going to be looking at penalty minutes and just time of penalty minutes.

And somebody's going to look between game three and four, and they're like, well, you see all those misconducts they gave out in game four, they really settled the game down. They made sure the game was played. And no one's going to look at the fact that they gave out all of these 10-minute misconducts at 20-1. It's just going to be like it's like it's the, it's, yeah. I mean, the final, I said a master class by Vegas defensively. It was a disaster class by the officials in the final two minutes.

Like, I don't know what. Oh, my God. That's stoppage when Aiden Hill got pushed. Like, yeah. It's either a penalty or it's not. If you feel like it might be, but it's not, you're not for sure. You let the play, play out. If Florida scores, that's why we have the reviews, right, to see if there was goalie interference.

It was absolutely unfathable to me that they decided that they could get away with that and just stop the game, just essentially to take a break themselves. Like, you know, like, let's reset. Take a breather. Take a breather here. Everyone go to your benches. Let's reset. Get a juice of water.

It was awful. It was awful. I don't know what. And then obviously the stuff at the end, like part of that's going to happen at the end of a game like this, but also like allowing it to happen in the first place because of a series decisions along the way. I mean, it was a mess. It was a mess from an officiating perspective. And I don't think it in any of these games has really influenced the outcome. I think like the Vegas should be up three one, if not for nothing in this series. But it has not been an exemplary

performance by the officiating by any means in the Stanley Cup final. All right, Sean, let's take our break here. And then when we come back, we're going to talk about a few articles you've burned recently and kind of how they apply to the series. So looking forward to that. You're listening to the Hockey P.Docast streaming on the Sports Day Radio Network. Big guests and bigger opinions on everything happening in Leifestland. Real Kipper and Born. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here in the Hockeyedockeped guest with Sean Shapiro.

We're talking about the game four of the Stanley Cup final. As we look ahead to game five as well, I think, you know, for the context of this conversation, Sean, you just put up a piece kind of documenting the importance of, of something that I think is probably like intuitive to a lot of people who watch hockey and are following these games, right? But just seeing it laid out the way that you did in terms of the cold, hard facts of how quickly goals are scored upon entering the zone. We always talk about, you know, the prevalence of the rush game and how important it is to be quick off the transition and to attack that way. And that's been a hallmark of Vegas's and Florida's really for the past couple years, right, in terms of their offensive approach. But you're seeing that in this series where just how quickly these goals are being generated off of it and how if you don't attack that way, you're going to have a very uphill battle, right?

Because the opposing defense gets set and then it's going to be significantly more difficult for you. So let's kind of lay out the framework of that and kind of get into how that's manifested itself in the series. Yeah. So, I mean, for me, one of the things watching Game 4, and it was something that kind of like just stuck in my head was. I'm, you're watching Game 4, and we hear throughout the playoffs, the narrative of, oh, the big battles and the zone time, you hear about that stuff, and it's fine. It's not that, it's not the bad thing, but you hear about it. But then you stop and I think it was on the ride back to hotel after the game here. I'm thinking, like, okay, you look at all of those goals. And aside

from the, aside from one, all of them were like bang, bang into the zone, right? And it prompt the nerdy, I mean, prompt the nerdy airport slash flight activity for me of basically sitting there and rewatching every goal and having to, of go and having to go find spots on the broadcast for some of the longer ones where I was basically pausing the video right as the puck crossed the, right as the puck entered the line and then pausing the video again and then taking the time difference to figure out. And basically, the moral of the story is goals in this Stanley Cup final if it's at five if it's if it's scored at even strength

it's getting scored in seven seconds or less after the zone entry there's a couple exceptions here and there but in general basically and this isn't this isn't as I said in the piece I wrote it's not rocket science or brain surgery or whatever other cliche you want to pick but like it's it's the goals have to come because of how good teams are defensively how structured they are. We talked a lot of how floor, how Vegas is so good.

Goals have to come in the moments of chaos. Goals have to come from the moments of weakness. They have to come. And when you're sustaining zone time and you're physically imposing on a team, you're not really breaking them down structurally a lot of the times. But when you come in right off the zone entry, those are the times where those seams open up for the cross-ice pass. Like we saw the Montor Pass to Barcove, right?

or the or or or if whether it's off a clean entry where you're you get defensemen who haven't got into that spot to set up defensively or off the recovery the team is most um vulnerable like to steal the what was it I think am I giving him the right credit to pep guadiola if it was like the team a team is most vulnerable like right after they've got right after they've won the ball and then and and in your most successful right after you've won the ball back I think to use to steal a soccer from terminology here. And that's how goals are scored in the Stanley Cup final. Like you look at

it and I'd love to, I'm sure at some point now I'll nerd out about this over the summer and go deeper about how different teams do. But for these two teams, it's a perfect case of if you're going to score it five on five, it's got to be on the rush. It's got to be right away off the zone entry because otherwise it's more

of just your putting physicality into the bank. Yeah, I mean Florida, both of their goals in game four and they go back to the overtime winner in game three. all came in that fashion. You know, the two goals, Stevenson scored in game four. You know, the first one, Eckblad essentially, like, thinks he's safe to go off on a change. And so instead of just dump in the bucket

or doing something much less ambitious and inspired, White Cloud, just tape-to-day pass to Stevenson, he cuts through there and he scores. And so, yeah, you're right. Like, I think that there's that vulnerability while you're transitioning because not only do you often have the numerical advantage in terms of attackers versus defendants, but also those defenders are kind of on a bit of an island, right?

Like they're having to move and defend, which is a lot more difficult than when you can be stationary and just occupy a little zone in the defensive zone. And so that leads to miscommunications, breakdowns, guys being open where they're otherwise wouldn't be. And especially like we're giving so much credit to Vegas' defense. And part of this is they're so good in the neutral zone defending as well. but like they showed in the second period

when they're at their best that they don't give you too many of these opportunities to attack them off the rush which makes their defensive zone structure even more dangerous because it's just not being as exposed as often as otherwise would

and maybe that's part of this as well right you mentioned the Chris Russell thing from back in the day of look how many shots this guy's walking he must be good defensively it's like well no he never has the puck and also he's having to constantly do it for Vegas it's much more situational

in that way where it's not just that's not like their prefer outcome, but when they get in that spot, that's what they do, right? And so Florida just hasn't really been able to attack them one-on-one and isolated defenders on the rush as much as they probably would hope for. And then once they've gone into those in-zone settings, it's been brutal trying to create. But yeah, I mean, players who can, you know, for a while, we just used to look purely at zone entries in bulk, right?

You'd be like, all right, well, this is the number of, you know, for a while. zone injuries the team had, compare it to how many times they dumped it in, and then you go like, all right, well, you know, you're generating more shots off of a zone entry. But then you can really see that there's a, I think, a differentiation between just kind of carrying the puck in and then like taking a weak shot from the flank, as opposed to players who can get in there and then realize that you have one to two seconds before you lose that advantage and make some sort of a high nature play, either get cutting into the middle of the ice themselves, like Ico's done all postseason or making a play for a teammate by hitting him with a quick pass

and allowing them to skate into that open space, right? And so these players who are problem solvers in that specific area are already incredibly valuable. But if you're just thinking about like, all right, what's the skill set that you need to prioritize moving forward? It really feels like it's that specific one. Well, and to me, like Brandon Montor is a perfect example of that. We're Montor's a guy who this whole series where like there's the whole big Vegas defenseman and everything like that. But the other big story to me is if a team is looking at guys, you need to look at players like Montor who are able to,

and even, obviously he's had a couple points the past couple games and everything like that, but just the goal he sets a barcove on, the way, even the, like, he almost has the, that Phoenix Sun's like seven seconds or less, like shot clock in his head where like, and I know the goal was like downright silly and never could wind off both Vegas defense. But that's still one of those plays where they get into the zone, things are regrouped, things are starting to settle. It's like, okay, let's get something on net because it's the end of a shift. Like I think players like Montor are going to, you're starting, like, we always talk about all the mobile defensemen and everything like that. And as teams, like Vegas is going to give you the outside, take the outside, go back and take it, take it while they're giving it to you and then work it back right away for like the Barkhog goal.

It's, I think we're seeing, I think that's one of the other key lessons from the series is where players like Montour who aren't necessarily just moving the puck well through the neutral zone, but understand that, that, that internal clock of, of everything. I think that's, that's, that's a big lesson for me from this series where I think, um, like, it was kind of funny where it's like people will be the Montor storylines. I think people are looking at the wrong ones. Like, like there's the emotional family, which is great. He had a kid mid series, catching red eye flights, all that stuff. That's fun. But like the other thing, it's like, oh, look, a guy who needed the game to, like, took a while to turn into this guy. And I think more so is he was kind of always this player, just kind of needed the, like, Paul Maurice has given him the rope to do it. And I don't think he always had that.

How do you not frame, how do you not title this story seven seconds or less? Well, isn't there a whole, like, book after that? There is. Oh, I think you could still get away with it. Yeah. You know, you spoke with, with, I'm in Barbosheb. I think it was before the series, right? Here you were talking a little bit about because I had been pitching you at all of my

Jack I go tape studies. I was like, oh, man, like, just watch all these plays where he's doing a specific thing. Dallas's defenders are just completely out to lunch. I don't know if it's them just not putting the work in in video sessions before or whether it's them knowing it. But once you get it to the game, it's a different animal and they're not reacting accordingly. but his ability to do exactly what we're saying here, where it's one thing for him to carry the puck over that semi-permeable membrane, right,

of the blue line, it's another what he does next. And instead of taking some sort of a low percentage shot or allowing the defender to nudge him to the outside and then getting caught in a difficult kind of inefficient position, he's immediately able to stop up, cut into the middle of the ice, and then make something happen from that zone entry, right? And so we were talking about that and then and then you sent me a funny exchange that you had with Ivan Barbertshev about it. Yeah, I talked to Barbishav about it during a media day.

And it was one of the, like, media day is always a big scrum and everything. And so like I always try to go to the opposite side of the scrum. It's one of the reasons that some of the best conversations are had on the opposite side of the room of the scrums of things. And I was talking to Barbershev and I kind of brought up playing with Eichel and everything like that. And he gave the nice kind of canned answer up and never played with someone. And then it was like, I was like, but I really wanted the answer. answer on this. So I was like, I was just really curious. And I'm like, well, no, like, if you do this and then all of a sudden I've got my,

there's no other media members around. So I feel. And so I've got, I'm like literally got like, I'm literally like kind of drawing a rink with my finger on the table. And, and Barberyshev kind of gives me like this. Barbertschev and I kind of at the exchange where he's like, well, you're right. But I don't think I'm supposed to talk about that. I love the idea of like some other media member being like, so, uh, Ivan, you, you're a hockey player, right? And it's like, yeah. And then you're like, all right, so this is Jack Eichael's own entries. Let's break them down frame by frame here.

And he's just like not not ready for it or way. I liked the, I liked the, it was a similar kind of exchange with, we had with Paul Maurice after the morning before game for, obviously before. So it was feelings were still high. Florida, his son had, sons team had won a title the night before. His sons are broadcast for Florida Everblades. And we're going through about 10 minutes of just. Game three, you're talking about this game and this.

And remember we asked Paul Murray, he's just about like just talking to HL coaches. And he goes into how the, the Panthers neutral zone coverage basically was expedited in teaching because he basically took the lessons from Brad Ralph, who's the coach of the Florida Everblades. And he also talked about a, it was the first time he ever saw the team go three off against three, going back to his one year coaching in Toronto for the Marley's in the HL and John Stevens was the coach of the other team. It's the first time we ever saw a team

go intentionally go rip it off the glass off a draw and go three up the other side and it led right to a three on O. And it was one of those things where it's just like you and I talk about hockey tactics all the time on here and I love it. It was funny to see kind of like him. Like if a coach in any other sport

at brings up something about tactically all of a sudden it's football it's basketball all of a sudden we get a bunch of follow-up questions about it just unfortunately in hockey like and that part of it was it was the end of the media availability so i think you know follow up but just so often is anytime a coach actually opens up about it the next question will be anyhow who uh how is so-and-so's how so-and-so's lower body that it's just it's i i i miss that in our sport because i love these conversations and the type of times i have those conversations with coaches and players like like that's the stuff I actually care about hearing from them as opposed to

well do you think point shots should get to the net well that's why it's important that you're doing the important boots in the ground reporting because otherwise we'd just be getting a lot of so Paul you uh you guys want to take this one shift at a time or no just to just to clarify um is this is this is this a must win tonight that's a good that's that's is this a must win tonight I love that um okay so we've spoken the other thing I want to talk about was we spoken about Aiden Hill and sort of the connection between that and the defensive system in front of them, right? And also like the lessons people are going to take from Vegas's success and

them winning the title and this postseason run and everything. Right. And so part of it, I think is, as I said, Aiden Hill is second and cons my voting. We're already seeing stories written about like how, you know, oh, any, you know, he has a 934 say percentage in this postseason. Like, it's obviously a remarkable run when they traded a fourth round pick for him. I don't think they even envisioned this certainly, right? Like it's obviously a great story. But I think there's more to it. And I think just the goalie position as a whole is so fascinating in the way we evaluate it,

the way we cover it, the way it has evolved itself, right? Because I feel like for the most part, there's so few people in media that are qualified to actually speak about it. intelligently, one of which I would not cover account myself, certainly. But just like the intricacies of the position and kind of how it has also evolved because we focus so much, because I feel more comfortable speaking about it on, you know, shot selection and what skaters and forwards are doing to challenge them. But there's that, there's that seesaw, right, where when that happens, there's going to have

to be an adjustment from goalies. and so much of the focus with the state percentage dropping has been improved skillable from forwards, you know, equipment changes and everything. But I think you kind of hit on something interesting in your substack about it as well. So we can kind of talk about that here to close up today's show. Yeah, yeah. Substack, which now has its own pulling it up for the real URL, Shapshots, shapshotshotshockey.com. So that's definitely check that out. Kudos to the guy who's a photographer who found who like got the first shapshats.

Shapshots URL a long time ago. So shapshotshockey.com. But yeah, the, no, like, I, for me, as someone who played goalie and still attempts to play it at a semi-decent level at a beer league, the position in the way it's run and everything to the, it has always been fascinating. And over the past couple weeks, I basically, I was at the USA hockey goalie, the national camp in May. I caught up with Jonathan Quick. I caught up with Jake Ottinger, basically. And this originally had started as like an American goalie thing, and they just kind of evolved into the entire profession of it,

where like baseball pitchers, NFL quarterbacks, hockey goalies. It's the three like most coached, most individualized positions in sports now. And pitchers and quarterbacks, it's, they're still at least, they're, they're dictating the play. Those, those two positions are dictating the play. And but goaltending is the one where it's reactive. And so goaltending coaching in my view, and I looked at this and other people confirmed my view of this where we went from goal tending coaching.

It made goalie's made goleys better. Everyone's now got the technique. Everyone's got the base, everything. But every single kid now who wants to play goalie right away gets a goalie coach. You're five years old, five, six, seven years old, whatever. You're getting a goalie coach. And it's no longer the space where you're a hockey player, you're a coach, tactician. You're okay, well,

the puck guy comes down this, you do this, you do this. And it created kind of and it correlates pretty well with the save percentage drop in the NHL where we've got an entire generation of goalies who basically came in with really good technical ability and really good space skill,

but they're not really problem solvers. After I wrote the story, someone sent me a text where they actually said they thought my story was a really good they brought up Cal Peterson as a really good, as someone who, as someone who's a really good example of kind of someone who got trapped in this, where someone who was really technically skilled, but never really had to be the problem solver,

never really had to be a person. And so as goaltending, this goaltending pendulum needs to swing. Like you look at the goalies who are, as goalies try to take back, right, where NHL skill has never been better, yada, yada, yada. Part of it is you need to get to a position where goalies are less predictable. And Brovsky's a good example where he's not completely predictable. I mean, he's obviously there are

definitely tendencies, but he's not like every other goalie. You look at some of the other guys who are the better ones that play all the games now. You and I have had the conversation about Helibuck and workload, but Conner Hellebuck is not, Conner Hellebuck holds his hands differently than most goalies. He plays differently. Jonathan Quick, obviously, he's a backup for Vegas now. But one of the he's kind of a perfect example where we took the wrong lesson from him, the goaltent, and he took the wrong lesson from him. Basically, the RVH came into play because the Sadiens killed the Kings down low. And he was getting killed down low.

And the RVH was born directly because of the Sadeen twins. And instead of everyone looking at, well, Jonathan Quick created this technique to deal with a problem, everyone said, oh, Jonathan Quick, won two cups doing this. So now we must do this every time. It's something where it's, so this whole piece for me was just like a, basically, I talked to Trey Augustine, who's a draft prospect coming up in this draft about it, was basically me just nerding out about how, from a position and a perspective, how do we get back to installing skill, but also making goalies, like, no one's going to be Hashiq again, right?

No one, like Dominic Hachuk would have been coached. Dominic Hachuk would have been coached out of the position. That's the reality of it. Greatest goal in in Hachel history would been coached out of the position. So we're never going to get a Hachik again, but how do we at least get some of that back? into the game. And that was the kind of crux of my piece that I was, uh, that people should read. So, no, I think, I think it's a great point because it's become so cookie cutter, but unfortunately for goalies with the advancements and skill have come so, like such a wider array of weapons for

skaters to beat you with in terms of both shot types, but also locations and like what precedes it. And so a lot of that stuff that might have worked previously doesn't. And then as you're right, I think that that problem solving skill is the thing to hone in on here, where once you get kind of taken into the deep end in terms of, all right, now you're seeing stuff that you weren't necessarily prepared for, there's a lack of adaptation or like the skills necessary to adapt to that in real time. And that's why I think you're seeing a lot of what's happening, right? So I'm sure that that'll come along eventually the necessary changes. But I think that's like a really important point in terms of what's happening in today's game.

I think a perfect example of it is like you look at how the goalie gets coach now, where even you go to a morning skate or whatever, and you watch and the coach, the goalie coach is out there right away, and they're working on post integration, or they're working on post integration, or they're working on making a blocker saves or whatever. Like pick whatever the poison is. They work on that. They work with the goalie coach. And basically it becomes, okay, you know exactly where the shot.

coming from, you know exactly what you're working on, and you're doing that. And that's fine. You have to have that part of instruction at some time. But when that becomes all of your instruction, the player is never midgame, midgame, no one's going to stop the game from the corner and be like, hey, we're now going to work on a cross seam pass left to right. I just want you to focus on keeping your chest across. Okay, just do that. That never, midgame, no one puts. Maybe that's what the officials were trying to do at the end of game four when they stop. that stopped the offense's own possession for the Panthers. They're like, all right, hold on.

Aiden Hill, we got to work on this year. One of the, one of the officials as a kid who's a goalie. Yes, it's a teaching moment. It's a teaching moment. So it's like that. So I thought one of the, so Steve Thompson is the director of a USA goaltending. He brought, and I really appreciate the way Steve looks at this because I think he has to look at it this way. Because we saw USA hockey is basically trying to avoid the crisis that we saw where at one point was 2008, up until 2018, right?

the CHL wasn't allowing import goalies. I know they're allowing them now, but for a while there was the Canadian goaltending crisis. And USA hockey is now in the spot where they're trying to avoid that because USA hockey is starting to worry about in the USHL. We have a lot of import kids, a lot of kids from Slovakia, Finland, where Latvia, whatever, coming, taking a spot in the USHL, taking a spot from an American goalie and opening up another spot for a kid in their home country. And USA hockey is trying, okay, how do we avoid the crisis? Because they don't want to put the import rule on, but how do you beat the import rule?

You need to develop better goleys in general. You need to get back to a position where people are solving problems and they're not robotic. It can't be the, and so Steve, I really appreciate Steve sentiment where it's like, okay, we need, and it starts with, this is some of the best of the best of the position or whatever in this camp. But he's like, it starts with not, coaching them. It starts with, instead of, it starts with setting up a drill where you're going to

see 12 or 13 shots and you're not, as a coach, you're going to put the whistle away no matter what. You're just going to let them get beat. You're going to let them make the mistake. You're going to let them learn and teach themselves. It's the same way, it's the same way at anything, where you learn through, you learn by losing, right? And if, and right now, goalies, and for a long time, goalies haven't been losing in practice. And so where did they start They started losing in games and all of a sudden it's the biggest lights and everything like that. So goalies basically needed to get back to the fact where you're losing more often in practice. And that's not a bad thing.

But as a as a profession that's trying to teach someone to stop a shot, I'm sure it's a lot easier as a goalie coach to justify to mom and dad that, oh, look at all the shots he's stopping in practice. Like it's a it's a battle that is like I wrote about it and I feel like pretty happy with the reception to it. but it's also something that is being noticed and talked about within various organizations. Certainly. All right. Well, we got to get out of here. We're out of time. Unfortunately, I wanted to talk to you about Alex Faust and regional broadcast and stuff.

We'll have to put a pin in that and save it for next time. You and I get together. So I'll hold us to that. So I'll let you go here as well. And we'll be back tomorrow with more of the Hockeyedio cast as always streaming on the SportsNet Radio Network.