The Hockey PDOcast - Garbage Time in Dallas

Episode Date: May 24, 2023

David Castillo joins Dimitri to talk about the first three games of Stars vs. Golden Knights, how things went off the rails so badly for Dallas in Game 3, and why Vegas has been able to have so much success.This podcast is produced by  Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PDOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipo. Welcome to the Hockey-Ocast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich, and joining me is my good buddy, David, what's going on, man? Well, hey, we're going to talk about a lot of positive things. Dallas Stars versus Vegas Golden Knights after a sort of a very harmless game three. So I'm just looking forward to talking about it, Dimitri. Yeah, very uneventful.

nothing happened in the game. It was just your typical run-of-the-mill playoff hockey game. No, it was a dumpster fire to put it lightly. And we're going to jump into it, talk about everything. I think talk about the series as a whole, not necessarily just focusing on game three, although game three kind of brought up some of the overarching issues that Dallas has experienced in the series,

but we can kind of loop it all together and talk about the first three games of this matchup and why Dallas is in an 03 hole and why Vegas is up three-nothing. I'm going to start on on the most somber of notes, David. I'm going to give you a summary that I have written down here of everything that happened in the first period last night. Okay.

71 seconds in, Vegas scores to go up on nothing. Less than two minutes into the game, Jamie Ben absolutely loses mind, takes an egregious penalty. We're going to talk more about that later that puts the team down a man for five minutes and gets him kicked out of the game. Seven minutes and 10 seconds into the game, Vegas is already up three nothing. That gets Jake Otager pulled from the game. game. Some point later in the first period, of Gnady Dodonov runs into Rupé Hintz, gets hurt,

doesn't return to the game and seems like he's doubtful for game four. Later on in the period, he didn't wind up getting hurt, but in just the string of cursed events, Rupé Hintz trips over a stick that's just sitting in the neutral zone and falls and loses possession of the puck. And then the stars hit the post or crossbar twice in that period, come out of it down three nothing, don't wind up scoring at all the rest of the game. Am I missing anything? from what was possibly the worst first period, given the circumstances that a team could play, which was what Dallas incurred?

No, I mean, it's sort of in my recap for D Magazine, I kind of compared it to Michael Douglas and falling down. It really was just, it kind of felt like a psychotic breakdown, just, I mean, in so many different ways, which may be a little sort of insensitive comparison, so I don't want to go there per se, but it just anything, it was just the Murphy's law of errors,

like anything bad that could have. happen happened yeah if you believe in like negative momentum or like snowballing effect this was a good reinforcement of that theory because it felt like it just kept going from bad to worse through the first 20 minutes and then not that the rest of the game was much better but it felt like after that you know the game was essentially over and I think the shame of it for me uh you know there's a lot of things that obviously went wrong but the shame for me personally is you know just because of how sort of summarily the stars fell apart as a team in this game and just how one-sided it was at the start.

I was actually very interested coming into it to see what adjustments Pete DeBer would make and what adjustments to stars as a team would make in this chess match because it felt like they got their legs under them a little bit in game too. They certainly played a much better defensive game for the first 50 or so minutes of that game and then now heading home with the benefit of last change being able to potentially shake free from some of these matchups that Vegas had been prioritizing. I was very curious to see what Dallas would do, whether that would make a difference and whether this series would kind of turn around

and they'd be able to deliver a counterpunch. And instead, it just essentially immediately devolved into quite literally garbage time with garbage being on the ice in the second period. But just, you know, there's nothing you can even really statistically take away in terms of takeaways from this game because, you know, you look at the money puck's deserve a meter, deserve to win a meter or like the, you know, the 5-1-5 stats or the shot share or anything from this game. it really doesn't matter. It paints an entirely different picture of what happened.

Vegas was clearly just very content nursing a 3-0-0-0-0-0 lead, and Dallas was just peppering them with very harmless shots from the outside. And so at the end of the day, you look at the numbers, and you're like, oh, well, you know, Dallas put up a bit of a fight there. They at least created some opportunities. But in reality, when you watched it in real-time, you realize that that really wasn't the case. And so it's almost a throwaway, and that's such a shame because not only they go three-down in the series, but it was the biggest game of their year,

and it ultimately, it's like it didn't really even happen. You know, it really kind of emphasizes that I think where sort of the regular season is figuring out sort of the climate of these teams, the playoffs are all about kind of figuring out sort of the weather, right, of these teams. And so these kind of moments have really, you know, Dallas has kind of really lost these moments. They've lost, you know, the quote, weather. Because, I mean, you, it wasn't like, Ben's going to get some warranted,

deserve criticism for what he did. But it shouldn't be lost on Dallas that they've unraveled in different ways before Ben made one of the dumbest decisions in this franchise's history. Like game one, you know, getting absolutely dumpstered in the third period for trying to sit on their lead. And it was Miro Heiskenen getting beat by Keegan Kolasar, of all people, on, you know, one of those late goals. Game two, Ryan Sutter's turnover, not to mention his unprofessional response afterward, right?

And then, you know, I don't know if there's a good word for anti-effort, but that was game three. So, like, I agree with you that I think Dallas has sort of, the series maybe been competitive, but not close. But there are things that have been building up, I think, kind of throughout these games. And Dallas just keeps losing those moments. and so now they're losing the series. Yeah, and that is what defines playoff series, especially this time of year. But, you know, it does feel like games one and two both went into overtime. So they really were coin flips in that sense.

But it does feel like even before game three, a lot of this series was being played kind of on Vegas's preferred terms or how they would be comfortable playing. And so, you know, we can talk a bit about goaltending here because I think everyone's going to come back down to that, right? the disparity between Aiden Hill's numbers compared to Jake Godinger's are night and day. But while Aiden Hill has certainly been terrific and I mean, he's got, what, a 949 save percentage in this series. He's given up just five goals in three games, including a game three shutout.

And since taking over from Laura and Braswa, when he got hurt early in the round two matchup against the Oilers, he's got a 95% percentage in his eight games at 515. Like he's been very good and done everything they need from him. But then you look at that 34 save shutout and the actual sort of, details of it or what he had to face or what he was exposed to. And that really highlights this main theme of this series for me. And it is what Vegas has done defensively to Dallas. Because heading in, I was very curious to see, all right, well, Dallas has been scoring a ton of goals off the rush. They have so many different unique ways now with their improved depth to beat

you offensively, to carve you up in different ways. And last time I had you on, we were talking about that specifically about sort of this unique offensive style they have and how it was working. against Seattle. And in this series, Vegas has essentially taken most of that away. And I think the credit is deserving fully to them rather than focusing on what sort of Dallas hasn't done or how they've unraveled or bad decisions they've made as a team. It really does feel like Vegas has kind of pushed them into this corner and has forced some of those decisions upon them. No, absolutely. And I think one of the, and hopefully I'm not getting ahead of myself, But I think for Vegas, I think one of the bigger sort of stories is, is their center depth.

You know, before the series, I kind of wrote on my substack how I was actually kind of afraid of the Jack Eichol versus Heiskin a matchup because Eichol is one of only two players I've ever seen Shake Heiskinin relatively consistently, him and McKinnon. And part of it's Ickel's like absurdly long stick, which is kind of part of it because it kind of naturally negates one of Amir's go-to defensive moves, which is that. sweep and poke check. But, you know, if there's such a thing as like subtle speed, Ikel has it. He's such an elite puck protector. It's easy for him to kind of flip that switch and, you know, initiate that first step to kind of shake the defender. And you actually saw that in game one, which I'm surprised nobody jift where Ikel literally like that suited him. Like I couldn't believe it. Yeah, he kind of put him in his spin cycle, right? And shook him. Yeah. And which is crazy because it's a matchup that for the most part, you know, Miro has hadn't had to, he hasn't had to deal with.

But I think what's really been haunt in Dallas is actually William Carlson. He's the Ford who's played high skin the most, outshut him 13 to four to the first, you know, three games. The Dallas Ford, who's seen the most, who he's seen the most is Rupert Hintz, who he's outshut in 9 to 6. And it's his back check-in that kind of seems to spoil every middle of the ice attack that the top line tries. And even though someone like Carlson is not as fast as hints, he has enough loose puck speed to kind of more or less hang with him. And there's another guy that I want to talk about and maybe we'll just kind of highlight him later. But that's Nicholas Waugh, who I think really needs a sort of think piece to be written on him, written about it because he deserves to be mentioned the same breath as Carlson, say, from like, you know, four years ago and Stevenson, you know, within these last two years. Yeah, I'm...

Long time listeners of the show know I did a big thing on Nikwa last year where I was like, man, I certainly hope that some enterprising team takes advantage of the situation and steals him for a second round pick with an offer sheet because Vegas just simply cannot match and he needs to be playing up a lineup and no one did so in Vegas was able to retain him at a discount and bump him up at some point in the second round when Michael Amadio got hurt. And yeah, he's jelled perfectly with that, with that combat. And you're totally right about Carlson, right? He kind of feels like a boogeyman in a way defensively.

And he allowed Vegas to dictate the terms against the Oilers as well. Because by the end of that series, by game six, Jay Woodcroft and the Oilers were clearly so concerned about the matchup of Carlson being out there when Connor McDavid was out there and what he was able to do defensively to kind of neutralize him and prevent them from scoring that they were going above and beyond and jumping through all. these hoops to make sure the McDavid was off the ice whenever he was out there and then trying to sneak him on when Carlson would take a break. And that totally just threw them out of a rhythm and really changed all of their plans and altered them. And that is such a compliment to what

Carlson has done and how he's established himself defensively. And it feels like that's sort of happening again here. It almost seems bizarre to say, right, when you have the firepower of a top line like Dallas does. But then just because of this unique defensive impact that he's able to have, it really does make you sort of reconsider your matchups or your usage and deployment and what you're trying to accomplish. And that's, that's, that's an amazing luxury that the Bruce Gassidy has. That needs to be said when we talk about this team's sort of defensive structure and their defensive numbers and what they've done on that end of the ice this entire postseason.

And, you know, just kind of add to that. I think Carlson kind of like, you know, just, well, maybe getting back to Nicholas Waugh for a second. Like, I think he's a good example of how elite soft skills can elevate a player and thus their line. This is something that Dallas doesn't really have. Like they have players that can produce, they have talented players below the top line,

but that's very different than, you know, a player that kind of fits in with the interlinking skills of their line mates. Like, for example, Wa is not the best shooter or the best passer, but he's literally one of the best, one of the game's best chance creators off the cycle for Corey Schneider's data.

And that's kind of what Vegas is doing with these matchups, which is they're forcing Dallas to use the wall, where they just constantly have superior position, which I think is also kind of owed to Dallas's lack of foot speed on the blue line, which again is a zoned topic. But one of the things that I do want to kind of bring up, which is maybe sort of too much kind of theory crafting and sort of like hockey philosophy. But I think something we also saw with Seattle and some of you're seeing with Vegas

is the kind of ripple effect that I think strong depth can have on its best players. Mike and Blake McCurdy, he did some preliminary research on quote, off-ice impact. The idea being that, well, territory is not always one or lost on a single shift. So what he did was find evidence for players creating residual offense and defense. Excuse me. And I think sort of Vegas has been a really good case study in how depth can give teams the offensive and defensive zone starts that they want for their best players.

Like every one of Vegas's top line is starting over 70% of their shifts not on the fly in the offensive zone. Meanwhile, Dallas's top line, you know, ranges between 58 to 63%. Because, well, I mean, they're just, they're getting punished, like from line one to four. They are. Oh, man, there's so much time I pack it with the fours. Can we put a pin in it for a second and just finish up on the goaltending and kind of the Vegas' defensive play before we move on to that? Because I think that's warranting of its own section in this conversation.

For the series, I've got Vegas in terms of rush goals and heading into this, this was. was a matchup that I was really curious to see how it would play out, right? Because through the first two rounds, I believe Dallas led the entire postseason with 15 goals created off of the rush. And Vegas, while they didn't score that many, was getting the much better end of it against Edmonton in round two and certainly in round one against Winnipeg. And so I was very curious to see who would be able to sort of win that matchup, who would be able to dominate in the neutral zone. And so far, through these first three games, rush goals in the series are four to one for Vegas.

And what's interesting is, I'm not sure if this came across on the, on the American feed, but on the Canadian one here during game one, I forget if it was the first or second intermission, but Alex Petrangelo was being interviewed. And generally, these player interviews at intermissions are such throwaways, right? It's just like a cliche fest and you're not actually going to learn anything. And then it's like, all right, I probably could have used those 90 seconds more wisely. It didn't really learn anything there. In this case, though, he'll sort of ask about what the,

what they were focusing on or kind of how they wanted to play in this series. And he went into this little dialogue about how he noted that like the big thing for them was maintaining the gaps off the rush. And he was like, listen, we need to make them dump it in because they have a bunch of really crafty guys who can make plays off the rush. I mean, you've seen that this postseason. And so for us to be effective, we need to force them to put the puck into the zone and then chase after the game.

And that really feels like that's exactly what they've done here through the first two games, according to Corey Schneider's tracking, zone entries are 162 to 125 for Vegas. Chances off of those entries are 20 to 9 for Vegas and rush shots are 30 to 60. Now, that doesn't include game three. I'm sure that I'll kind of look more favorably upon Dallas once you include those numbers because they were kind of dictating the pace a bit more with that deficit in mind. So I just throwing those numbers out. But through the first two games, even though the games were close in the scoreboard,

that's what I mean when I say that Vegas was really controlling the matchup that I thought was the key to this series. And so it really does kind of come back to that, in my opinion, in terms of trying to figure out where this has gone wrong for Dallas. No, that's, that's my main. I almost like have nothing to add, but I will add anyways because this is a podcast and two people are having a dialogue. But I think the sort of one of the things I've always kind of kind of gone back to with

Dallas is somebody kind of said on the, last podcast where, you know, the stars are kind of this case study and sort of design versus operational efficiency in modest conflict, where I do, like, DALS is, yes, like an offensively potent rush team at their best. But it primarily kind of stems from the top line, able to do all that damage on the rush. The depth can do that, you know, especially with the inclusion of Dadov and Domi. You know, they have a little bit more transitionability because of those two. but I think sort of from what I've kind of seen, I think part of the issue and part of what Vegas has done so well, especially in the defensive zone, which is that they shut down the middle

of the ice, they shut down Dallas's speed, which is one thing. But then when you look at where Dallas is traditionally punished teams on the cycle, their plan B has been behind the net. And Vegas, you know, with their kind of zone coverage, has done a really good job of not pursuing Dallas's fours. Like they try to create something behind the net. It doesn't matter. We're just going to, you know, you do whatever you want.

We're just going to make sure that no pass gets through the crease or back to the point. And that's something else that is punished Dallas. And they just haven't adjusted. Well, here, the Spore Logic has the inner slot shots for Dallas. Game one, they had seven of them. Game two, they had four. In game three, they had two of them. And they were both by Rodic Faxa in the third period, who was probably their least likely

forward to actually turn those shots into gold. And I think that also highlights a big issue for them in this series where Vegas, because of that compact structure in the defensive zone that you mentioned, where they keep everything to the outside and are very comfortable with it, I actually thought that heading into this series, Dallas might be able to leverage that to their advantage a little bit because they are happy to oblige in taking those point shots and getting guys in front of the net and having those layered screens and tips, but that hasn't really worked out that way in this series.

and instead they really just have been settling for very inefficient low percentage perimeter shots. And so, yeah, I mean, the combination of that, how Vegas has dominated the neutral zone in both directions, both defensively and offensively, are the stories of the series for me. And to kind of put a bow on this, you know, Aiden Hill has that 34 save shoutout in game three. I would argue that's about as easy a 34 save shoutout as you're going to see. I think S. Lundell led the stars in shots on goal. out of those 34, I think he had five. And I don't know if you'd agree or disagree with, but it feels like the toughest shot that Aiden Hill faced

was one that didn't even technically count because it was like that one where the puck just popped into the slot on a delayed penalty and Joel Hanley just ripped it. And Inhill made a blocker save, I believe, but it wasn't even going to count because the whistle had been blown dead and a penalty was coming. And so it really just, they got the 34 shots. They dominated the possession in that game.

But in reality, it was a microcosm of everything that's happened in the series where it was all, all very weak stuff from the outside that Vegas will just live with all day. Yeah, and that's, that's, I think, I think, again, like, kind of, and you saw like a little bit of this, a little bit of this with Seattle, where the, the sort of Seattle and Vegas's depth, have these, like, they have players who can play to a style, whereas Dallas doesn't really, they don't have, like, you know,

for example, you look at beyond their top, line. You know, they don't have a forward line that can really, you know, sort of either like create off the cycle or create specifically off the rush. You know, there's not like a ton of speed, like broadly speaking on Dallas's end, you know, beyond someone like hints and, you know, to a lesser extent, Johnston, who is not a fast skater, but, but has really good loose putt speed and he's very agile. And sort of, and then, you know, with the other players, I think that was kind of my issue and why I wanted Dallas to get a defenseman. And I realized that. that's another topic. Why I wanted Dallas to get the defensemen? Because their issue at their

worst, again, still a very good team. That's what makes this series kind of so disappointed. But their biggest issue was having three zone players, a defenseman to initiate the attack. And the forwards they brought in like Domi and Dodonoff were excellent. I'm not going to try to does not revisionist history and like, ah, well, actually Domney and Dodonoff weren't good. No, they were, they were very good additions. But they didn't fix what was truly able. Dallis and you're seeing just kind of the worst of it now with with the sort of blue line's been left which is you lost Klingberg and instead of replacing him with somebody the guy that you did bring in to replace elements of his game is a healthy scratch Niels

Lundquist you up-jubbj you upjumpur and now S. Lendell is playing with a rotating door of Yanni Hockenpaw and Colin Miller that's not going to cut it like it's not yeah I know and that's very like a delicate balance where on the one hand I want to criticize the players but on the other hand I don't know what the alternatives are necessarily right like I think it's very fair to say that at 38 years old Ryan Souter should not be playing as much as he is right now especially in such sort of high leverage premium minutes he's played 65 on five minutes in these first three games 70 all situations minutes like that that is not a recipe for success but then you look at it's like what the alternatives are.

And beyond switching guys like Hock and Paa and Hanley and Miller in and out of the lineup, which the borer has done throughout this postseason so far, there haven't really been too many buttons to push in that regard. You could argue that maybe, you know, they should have given Niels Lundquist a longer look earlier and positioned him to be a factor in this postseason. That's sort of a moot point now because they didn't. And really, I think a lot of this traces back to the deadline, as you're saying,

while Doddanov and Domi have been wonderful for them in this postseason and have made a huge difference in getting into this point, they didn't really address the biggest issues. And now they're left with this blue line group, which doesn't really have a lot of answers to whatever questions are posed to them. Even a guy like Thomas Harley, who you and I both love and we raved about the last time we chatted during the Seattle series, has struggled to my eye in this series. And game two in particular, it was a bit of a tough go for him in handling the puck. And that foot speed that you mentioned there has been exposed a little bit, not just in terms of defending Vegas's puck carrying speed, but in terms of going back and retrieving the puck and then making a play with it where early on it felt like Vegas was doing a great job on the forecheck of going in and punishing them physically.

And then now as the series has progressed, I think you've seen some of the remnants of that where some of these stars, blue liners are hearing the footsteps a little bit and kind of forcing and making mistakes as a result of it earlier than they need to, I think. that was a great example of why Suter made that inexplicable decision to turn the puck over in game two. Harley's done that a few times himself. You saw in the first opening goal in game three off that little kind of four check and then cycle that led to Marshall Sault's goal. It was a bunch of miscommunication kind of guys just sort of sloppily chasing the puck and not knowing where to go. And so all of it has manifested in this. And I think that I'm not sure what the answer is, right? I don't really, I'm beyond, I guess, just not playing Ryan Suter as much. Okay, well, what what is the alternative? I'm not entirely sure what the answer to that that question is.

You know, it's, I would honestly say it's, I think for as much as we kind of talk about sort of playing too many minutes or, you know, second power play unit, which just drives me insane, which I agree with, I still think Dallas's biggest problem. And this is not going to starts fans might get angry about this. But I, I think it's really the second pair. It's S. Lendell with Yanni Hawkenpaw and sort of Colin Miller. In fact, They rank 53rd in even strength plus minus at minus 3 out of 56 playoff pairs. And so I look at the final four in their blue lines. And when Vegas is not playing Patrangelo, Theodore is the next man up.

Carolina, Slavin, followed by Pesci. For Florida, Eklad, followed by the quietly elite, Gustav Forsling. And then for Dallas, it's high skinned by Foll by Eslandel. And I think it highlights how critical it is for defensemen to be three zone players. Lendell is a one-zone defender. Like he's good in the defensive zone with his position in, and that's it. I mean, he doesn't have the speed to skated out. He doesn't have the passing to facilitate the transition or the puck strength for that matter.

And that's one thing that I kind of highlighted on Twitter, which is that, you know, in game two, like, yes, Sutter's Turner was awful. And I saw people make an excuse while he expected Miro to be there. No, like Miro was right next to him when he made that awful pass. There were no excuses. He panicked. But in game two, it was Lindel's super weak dumpout that led to a turnover, which then led to the zone entry that ended their night. And whereas, like, Sutter is probably not going to make that pass again. Esselendell always makes that play.

He always dumps the puck out. And this is a guy that's more or less blocking Harley from being a potential, you know, top four on the left-hand side. So that mushy middle, I mean, this is a guy that gets paid $6 million a year. or close to $6 million a year. So I think that mushy middle is killing them, just the fact that they don't have a second pair. I mean, you can't think of, I can't even think of blue line in the entire playoffs this year

that has a second pair like that. No, you can. And the issue is, you know, we're going to talk a lot more about I call here after we take a break. But while we're on Lendell, I think Bruce Cassidy deserves a lot of credit for installing this defensive system

and having Vegas play the way they have off the puck. another thing he's done masterfully in this postseason he did it against the oilers to j woodcroft he's doing it again here to pita burr is he is targeting specific matchups and he's getting them time and time again and that's setting up his top players to succeed it is a bit of a coaching chess match and he's clearly winning it and what i what i say by that is on the one hand he's getting that petrangelo martinez pairing with william carlson out for you know over 50% of uh dallas's top line minutes if i want five which is also then in turn allowing him to free up Jack Ikel for offensive usage. And you look at Eichael's five most common opponents at five on five in this series. They're S. Lendell at 20 minutes, which is significantly more than anyone else. Mason Marchman, Joel Hanley, Wyatt Johnson, and Thomas Harley. And that is, I know that, you know, that came a lot in the first two games where they had the benefit of last change in home ice.

But if you were to script this series and be like, all right, what's a recipe for success for Vegas? It would be, well, we're going to get our most dangerous offensive player out against that group of players and that's exactly what they've been able to do and as a lindel's sort of one dimensional nature has really been a big problem in that matchup while he's good positionally defensively and kind of soaking up uh you know shot blocks and and all that good stuff after what happens after that has been a massive problem because it just sort of restarted the cycle over and over again because they haven't actually been able to turn any of those ends of possessions into

the positive plays moving out of the zone. It feels like whenever they do get the puck, Eichel and his group kind of just forced them into a turnover in the neutral zone, quickly regroup, and it's back at it again. And I think that has been highlighted here. And that's a big reason why Vegas has been as successful as they have and why Dallas has been struggling in that matchup.

Yeah, it's really, it's almost like tough to watch sometimes because you see exactly what this team is capable of at their best and certainly what they're capable of when high skin is on the ice, but it's just such a 180. And this is not to necessarily like dump on like S. Lindell in his contract, even though, yes, I tend to be critical of him because I've always kind of hated that notion of like pay the guy and the other guy's shadow. It's basically was what happened with Lindell's contract, right? He was paired with John Klingberg for so long.

And he was seen as this sort of defensive apparatus, this kind of stabilizing force, even though he never drove play. Like he didn't do anything special in all three zones. He was just the defensive guy next to Klingberg. And so Dallas has been content to kind of live with these players. You know, that's kind of why Haken Paw was brought in, Colin Miller, et cetera. And it's really kind of, it again goes to show you just kind of what we talked about with the Seattle series, how much the margins matter.

Like if you settle for, you know, the floor on a. a really critical position and you just and you don't do whatever you can to optimize the lineup, somebody's going to come along and exploit that. And that's exactly what Dallas is experiencing right now, which is their defensive, you know, their blue line, which really needed help with the trade deadline goes unaddressed. They feel like Lindell's reputation is good enough. It's not. It's never been just because of how he's been characterized. And to Vegas's credit, they're just doing exactly what they need to do. They're sort of, they see the kind of,

they see exactly how they're going to win and what they're going to do to just constantly gain territory. And they're doing it. Like, here's your weak link. We're exploiting that. Yeah, it feels like they're, yeah, they've kind of identified the cracks in the armor and they're just basically pressing down on those

and then kind of making them even bigger than they were previously. And maybe, maybe I just underestimated the fact that Dallas, as first two opponents in Minnesota and Seattle just didn't really have the offensive personnel, I guess, to do so. And so now that they're facing someone with the guys that Vegas has, it's become a bigger issue, obviously. All right, David, let's take a quick break here.

And then when we come back, we'll keep talking about this series and plenty more. You're listening to the Hockeypedo guest streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. Your number one spot for Flames coverage can be found on Flames Talk with me, Pat Steinberg, exclusive interviews, trusted insiders, and the latest news. Listen live weekday afternoons and four or stream the Flames Talk podcast on demand.

All right, back in the Hockey Petticoor, we're talking stars, Golden Knights. David, let's talk a little bit about Jack Eichl here because to my eye, he has been decidedly the best player in this series through three games. I know he's got just the two primary assists to show for it so far, but it feels like he's been creating so much

in his five-on-five minutes. Vegas is up to nothing on the scoreboard. High danger chances are eight to three. and I've personally in my tracking got him down for 10 shots set up, five scoring chances set up. And of his own 12 shot attempts, eight of them have been scoring chances. And it feels like he has been probing and creating every time he's been on the ice.

He's been effortlessly slicing into the offensive zone with the pocket to set the table for his teammates. And it really feels like he has been, you know, from a skater perspective, at least the biggest difference maker in the series. I'm really happy for, I just want to say that as just a hockey fan first and foremost, I'm really happy for Eichol here because I feel like for the longest time, you know, despite his draft status, sort of he just kind of, I think people just, you know, mostly ignored him or

kind of treated him as the guy in the shadow of McDavid. And not even in the shadow of McDavid, but probably like, you know, players like Miko Ranton who also win that draft, Mitch Marner, Kappersoff and so forth. And I think kind of what you're seeing is now with a good roster and 100% health, what made him and what makes him such a special player, which is, I think he's a player like of incredible kind of a combination of like subtlety and physicality where sort of, you know, he doesn't always beat guys with his speed, doesn't necessarily need to. That sort of puck protection kind of making him use.

unique and kind of stand out. But it makes it makes it look like he's not, quote, quote, trying, which is one of the things that always kind of bothers me about sort of talented players that, you know, coaches criticize because, well, maybe they don't throw enough like checks or hits or block enough shots as if like that's synonymous with effort. Like, well, you know, maybe like what's going on in their head is their effort, you know, them trying to figure out things on nice and try to anticipate things rather than just kind of always react. And to me, Heichel has just done such a great job of being proactive and how he sees the play, being offensively and defensively aware, and just winning one-on-one battles as a result.

It's the perfect blend of that kind of that talent, but also the physicality, but the creativity. And it helps that, you know, he just, he's in. some of these, you know, against a blue line that is, you know, can't handle him. But to be fair, Muriel He's got a couple cracks in him, and he got absolutely, like, bodied. And that is something that you don't even see against, you know, like guys like McDavid or McKinnon. And so I've just been impressed and kind of in awe, really. Yeah, his utilization of that speed is really fascinating because it feels like offensively

when he has the puck, the game is really slowed down from him. He's reached this next level of confidence and comfort in what's going on around him, especially you watch him on some of these plays on the power play, not the Vegas. His power play has been particularly good in this series or this postseason. But it sort of illustrates that in terms of like his willingness to sort of like circle back rather than forcing something and just slowing the play down and waiting for a passing window to open up so that he can attack as opposed to, you know, just constantly being go, go, go. And then when he doesn't have the puck, I actually think just as impressive has been his

work defensively in this series where, you know, he's almost sped himself up where he is constantly putting in the effort to come back and apply back pressure and disrupt. And when we discuss how Vegas is dominated the series in the neutral zone and maybe the differences in terms of, you know, the foot speed between the two teams, I wouldn't necessarily say the Vegas blue line is all that mobile, but they're able to look a lot more confident in gaping up and stepping up than Dallas's is because of a guy like Ikel where every single time Dallas is trying to carry the puck up the ice and you've all of a sudden got him backtracking closing the amount of ground they have to cover an account for and that's forcing a lot of

turnovers right and so I just think it's been a masterful three zone effort from him he's been putting it all together and it's been really fun to watch and you know game three was a great example what was it it was on that power play um I believe in the second period where at the end of his shift even, it looked like Radic Faxon might have, you know, a partial break or a chance to come down the right wing and get a scoring chance off. And he comes back, backtracks, just takes him off the puck, allow Shay Theodore to pick it up, and they're back out of the zone and able to attack once again. And so that was a great sort of encapsulation of what he's been doing this entire postseason, particularly in this series, to make a difference. Yeah. I mean,

it's the kind of thing that unfortunately you sort of aren't seeing on the other end on the also side, but it's, I think what also helps too is that Ikel sort of kind of getting back to that, that sort of, you know, discussion about kind of player clusters and, and sort of, you know, ideal linemates, you know, more than chemistry. I feel like chemistry is just such a, you know, it's usually kind of a stand-in for experience. But instead, like, Ikel doesn't just have, you know, sort of players that, you know, he has experience with, but players that I think really kind of complement what he does in all three zones, between, you know, Barbashev, you know, just kind of being a sort of forecheck and demon.

And then, of course, have I forgotten who Eichel plays? Jonathan Marshall, so who has been kind of fantastic job of getting open once Eichael gets the puck. And you saw that perfectly on the first goal in game three, right? Where a slight little, you know, hiccup by the stars defensively where all of a sudden there's like a miscommunication, they don't know who's covering who Eichael has the puck. all of a sudden instantly Marshal just pops up for like a wide open shot and winds up converting on it. That was such a perfect combination of like sort of bad goal tendon and like great position right where March or so just runs right in front of Audinger to get open.

Ondinger just still like keeps his eyes on the puck just completely ignoring it and and sort of March so just kind of further disconnects from Robertson and Pavilski's coverage and and just like that. It's right, that was the first goal, which, I think also kind of emphasizes that, you know, for as much as, you know, people want to kind of talk about sort of been as they should, that that was awful. You know, Dallas did not just start it out awfully, like, to begin with. This really was like a collective bad start before, you know, before like the nastiness and all that stuff. And, and, you know, just kind of getting back to what we're talking about with Eichol, it's just, it really makes a difference. You know, again, you know, goes back to the quality of competition versus quality of.

line mates, quality of line mates is always going to be so much more important. And I'm pretty sure like the data is out on this, right? Like sort of for forwards, right, their performance is more affected by the quality of their forward line mates followed by and followed by the opposing defenseman and then vice versa for defenseman. And Ikel finally has a really good compliment of forwards who can finish plays, but can also kind of work with his timing. And, you know, as the sort of boxing cliche Jay goes, time and beat speed. And that's what Ikel's line has. They have timing and it's just been beaten Dallas all over the ice. Well, it's not just Ikel though. I think the issue for Dallas here is, in my opinion, Ico Stone and Carlson have been the three best or I guess most impactful

players or skaters in this series. And each of those three guys is anchoring their own separate combination of forwards. And that is when you talk about depth, like that is it. We praise Dallas's newfound depth after adding Domi and Dodov and abilities to create in different ways. And, you know, all of a sudden they have this array of offensive options. It's not just Rupert Hins attacking off the rush anymore. And that has sort of been completely overshadowed or entirely evaporated in this series. Luke Lennon-Denning's assistant game two represents the only even strength point that any star skater has who isn't playing on either the top line or top herring for this team.

While you look at Vegas and they've gotten multiple, even strength goals out of each of its four lines. Eichle and Marshall's line has two Carlson Smith and Waugh have two. Stone and Stevenson and Howard have two. And then William Carrier and Teddy Lugar have scored two as well. And that, that, like, when we're talking about like, oh, the differences between these two teams or what's been, what's been happening here and what's been transpiring, well, that's also another important note here. Like, Dallas is, nothing's really worked, but in particular, the fact that Vegas is getting so much out of all of these different combinations has been a big point

emphasis as well. Well, I think that was also why I was just kind of so afraid about Dallas's deadline, which is that, you know, initially the big, the talking point for Dallas and for fans and I think even within the organization was, oh, we need a, you know, we need a right winger for the, for the Tyler Sagan line. And I never understood that because Marchman and Sagan, they weren't great together. So the idea that one forward would just come in. and magically fix that line, which is nonsense. And so what they did is, which is something that Vegas is not done, which is Dallas added talent instead of impact, you know,

or talent instead of chemistry. And I think that's kind of what that's really been the difference between the forward lines, which is that, you know, Dallas has some really talented players, but there's not a whole, but they don't drive play. Like, yeah, sure, Ben scored a lot of points this. year, of course, a lot of which were on the power play play. But when you look at a lot of this sort of, you know, play driving results, a lot of their possession metrics, it's not like Ben Johnston and especially Delandria to begin the year were,

you know, like supernova or anything like that. And, you know, same thing with the Marchman-Sagan, you know, insert player X there, right? You know, there just hasn't been that sort of that play-driving ability present in their forward lines below the top line. and Vegas conversely has that. And I think sort of this kind of play driving quality is what's fuel in one team over the other. And also kind of goes to show you what, you know, the difference between so offense and production. And, you know, offense is much more sustainable.

It's the stuff of production. Dallas just has guys that can produce, but not necessarily the guys that can drive play. Yeah, that's a really important differentiation there. Do you want to talk a little bit about the J.B. Ben, incident i mean i just i don't i don't really a lot has been said already i i agree with everything like it was inexcusable it was indefensible it also wasn't his first time doing something like that uh obviously on on on this stage and given the context and circumstances it was but um i don't know it just it felt really like selfish and reckless and you would expect more from a player with

the experience and you know the in theory should be a leader on this team the captain and all that and then the lack of accountability after as well. I mean, you put it all together, and it was a pretty rough kind of stamp on what was just the most miserable game possible. Miserables is definitely, I think, the first and last word that kind of comes to mind. But I also think that it's sort of, this is,

it kind of like starts with hockey culture, like specifically this fetishization of playoff brutality. And, you know, as much as I hate to say it, I love brutality. I used to cover MMA and boxing. I still watch those. I still enjoy them. But the thing about brutality in those sports is that the rules are clear and everyone

consents to that brutality. Like hockey players, yeah, they consent to hidden in physicality, but not to be in hidden the head or cross checked or elbowed. And these things constantly go uncalled. Like we saw this earlier in the year where like Jeff Carr just hit the head on Cam Car, which didn't even get an hearing because George Perris was on vacation, I guess. and we've seen this over and over in the playoffs. Like even when the violations are excessive, like when is the punishment ever proportional

to the act? You look at the petrangelo and nurse expansions being prime examples. So Ben did something fantastically stupid and I'm not making excuses, but it's just on brand for playoff hockey. And Ben's cross-check won't be the last thing that we see, the last dumb thing that we see as long as the NHL fails to kind of change that culture. Yeah, no, I agree with that. It was interesting during the game.

I forget which intermission it was, but the sports night panel is talking about how, you know, Jamie Ben's going to own up to this after this game, right? And then he has two and a half hours, essentially, to think about what he's going to say. And then as soon as the game ends, just leaves without speaking of media, leaves it to others to handle.

And you know what? It might have been the right decision, because once he spoke today, his excuse made absolutely no sense. So he had a full. full day to think about it and still couldn't come up with a reasonable explanation. So maybe it was a good thing that he didn't speak after the game. Or although I'm morbidly curious to see what he would have said in the heat of the moment.

You know, sort of games like that, you can kind of see why the sort of like the cliche kind of talking head is born because my goodness, it's so easy to just kind of come up with a narrative that makes somewhat logical sense, which is something like that happens. And you're kind of just like, wow, this team has like no composure. And they're led by someone that made an idiotic decision and then made another idiotic one after that. And you kind of start to, you know, question like, well, does this team have what it takes? Obviously they do. Obviously, this is a talented team.

You know, they're in the Western Conference finals. And all the pieces seem there for this team, certainly not to make a run this year. I think the riding is on the wall here. But certainly like next year and beyond, but you're just, how can you think about sort of anything else except just this spectacular failure? And, and so, yeah, it's, I don't,

I'm not like interested in kind of like, you know, sort of, you're doing the, you know, playing that Steve Ney Smith role and like, you know what? This team needs to burn it down. This team needs to restart rebuilding and retooling whatever. But it is, you, in the moment, you do think, man, geez, if you can get rid of Ben's contract, that would be great. Yeah, I mean, and that's about with back-to-back games where in game two, you know, Ryan Suter

makes the mistake that leads at a loss and then has a very interesting postgame with the media, then game three, Jamie Ben does this and doesn't even speak to the media. And you'd think that, you know, these players in leadership roles are held to higher standards and comparing it to the way young players are treated in hockey, right? And if they did something like this, how that would be talked about as opposed to these guys who I guess have built up cachet over all these years as veterans is interesting to compare it and contrast. I don't, you know, I don't know what else to say about this series.

I'm kind of curious to see how Game 4 goes. It is back in Dallas. We'll see who's available and who's not for the stars. But I don't really know how you come back from a game that transpired the way the Game 3 did, right? I think it's one thing to lose a game. It's another thing to kind of, um, you know, be punked the way that they were or melt down in the fashion they did. And so I'm, I'm sure we'll see some pushback in game four. And this is obviously still a very talented team

that got here for a reason. But I don't know. What are your thoughts kind of on game four and where this series hits now after what we saw in game three? I feel like even if they win on game four, it's still going to be kind of the sort of proverbial blue ribbon. Like I don't, I think mainly because I think through three games you can kind of speak to the broad trends, which is, you know, William Carlson is doing a great job of shutting down the top line. And even if DeBoer keeps, you know, the top line away from Carlson's group in game four, well, you know, Cassie's going to go back to that matchup in game five. And if somehow they win game five and six, well, he's going to have that matchup for game seven. I mean, it's just, it's, and even then, well, what are the guys that

don't have to deal with Carlson line doing with the Ikel group, you know, is Ikel still absolute body in that S. Lindell-Hocken-paw-slash-Miller pair, probably. Like, I don't, you know, there's, there's nothing about like S. Lindell and Hawkenau's performance to make me think they can handle Ikel when Heiskenon himself can't, right? I mean, it's so it, the writing really is on the wall. And I think it's going to be just really interesting kind of watch Dallas's offseason and see if like, you know what, maybe we should get serious. It's tough, though, because all those guys are shined through next year, Hock and Paw, Miller, and Sutter.

And so hopefully they get serious. I mean, like, it's, yeah, I mean, I know the series is not officially over, but, I mean, it just, you know, functionally it feels like it's over. And I just feel like you'll probably see a good performance from Dallas. And, you know, sort of the, you know, kind of local guys can kind of sort of gas them up. Like, you know what? They still got some of the left. But no, they don't.

It's just it hasn't been the matchups. I mean, just the most important players for Vegas have been consistent and excellent. And the most important players for Dallas have underperformed. They have. And Vegas has just had more options and maybe, you know, I'm going to beating myself up a little bit because I know heading into this series, you were quite high on Vegas and were sort of concerned about it from Dallas's perspective. I think I was just a bit too high on Dallas or maybe not putting enough stock in what Vegas showed us in round two. where, you know, they demonstrated a clear lack of flaws, a lot of depth, versatility,

an ability, most importantly, to leverage their own strengths into punishing the opposition and taking advantage or neutralizing their own strengths and taking them away from them. And I just didn't really, you know, should have maybe given that a bit more thought or credence heading into this match. I'm thinking about how these two teams would shake out head to head against each other. But that's exactly what we've seen through these three games. And I guess the lasting takeaway is this Vegas team is, very, very good.

Yeah, and I think I also like think that something that we tend to kind of ignore just like broadly speaking like and just kind of analysis as a whole is, is the concept of Stalysis make fights. I also think Vegas is just a really good stylistic matchup for Dallas where they can sort of, they can slow the game down, but they can also play fast. You know, they have good depth, but they also have game breakers. And those are all things that almost kind of sort of foil Dallas in a lot of. different ways where, you know, Dallas also has game breakers, but they're all in one line, you know, for the most part, right? You know, Wyatt Johnson exception. And, and they have depth,

but that depth can't drive play, whereas Vegas has depth that can drive play. And of course, they have, you know, sort of, you know, you mentioned like the blue line not being the most mobile, but they can still function with the forward lines that they're given. And that makes a real, you know, a huge difference. Whereas Dallas doesn't have the defensive. group that, you know, can really sort of cover for the Ford's defensive mistakes and, you know, vice versa. The forwards, like, don't have the ability to cover for, you know, the blue lens mistakes outside of Heiskenen.

And so, yeah, it's just in a really disciplined team to, like, not in terms of like penalties or anything like that, but discipline in terms of like structure. Yes. Yeah, definitely. All right, David. Well, it was good to chat with you about this and looking forward to having you back on the show. I'll let you quickly let the listeners know where they cannot.

where they can check your writing out that you've been doing on this series with our friend of the podcast, Sean Shapiro. Yes, D Magazine, as always, we've been doing the sort of what we saw, what we felt like, kind of recaps for each playoff game. And then I still sort of contribute to, I still write on Pucks Albows, my substack. And, of course, Defending Big D every now and then will sort of show my appreciation for them giving me my start. Awesome, buddy. Well, I hope you have more than one game left here in the holster to, to write about because I've been enjoying your work and coverage of this so far.

So if that continues for at least a bit longer, we will be back tomorrow with another episode of the Hockey Ptoddinger. We didn't talk much about Jake Godinger here. We talked about the Aden Hill. We didn't talk about the other end. And I wasn't ducking that conversation. I was just saving it for tomorrow because I'm having Kevin Woodley on the show. And I think he's going to have a lot of wisdom to impart on that.

So I want to just kind of save that topic for him tomorrow. So looking forward to that. When we'll be back with that episode of the Hockeypediocast tomorrow here, on the Sports Night Radio Network.