The Hockey PDOcast - How Dallas Has Swung Their Series Against Vegas, and Their Biggest Stars

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by David Castillo to break down the first five games the Stars and Golden Knights have played against each other. They look at how Dallas has been able to fight back in the series after going down 2-0, the massive contributions they've gotten from Wyatt Johnston and Logan Stankoven, and the factors that'll play a deciding role in who ultimately wins. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

2015. It's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockeyedio cast. My name's Dimitri Lepovic and joining me is my good buddy David Gastio. David, what's going on, man? Doing well. Doing well. It's, I'm happy to keep you company since I'm not sure you would have had as much given the competitiveness or lack thereof through round one. Yes. Well, that's exactly what we're going to do today. We're going to talk about the most competitive round one series this postseason by quite a bit. The Dallas Stars versus the biggest golden nights, we're going to break down the first five games, everything we've seen, kind of how

the series is shifted in momentum, fully unpack all that stuff. I think the big opening question here for us that we need to answer in trying to kind of figure out how this series has played out so far is what happened between games two and really the start of game three, I guess, but let's say between games two and game five, right? Because you left game two, with the stars having lost both the first two games at home. Vegas was going home with a two nothing lead. It felt like it was very sort of doom and gloom. And it was like, oh, no, like we underrated Vegas.

Everyone was way too high on Dallas collectively. This is going down a very sinister road for this team. And they came out with an unbelievable effort in game three, won that one that game in overtime, of course. One game is four, one game five. And now all of a sudden, they've sort of flipped this script entirely and about as dramatically as you're going to see in a series like this, and they have Vegas suddenly on the ropes for really the first time.

They weren't at all last year, so it's been a while since we've seen this team kind of face this type of adversity. So what's your take on kind of what Dallas did, or maybe what Vegas hasn't done to adjust themselves, that's resulted in this kind of a dramatic shift. Just kind of starting at the general level, I think the series really kind of forces you, to kind of avoid that, that sort of if-then analysis.

And for those that don't know, like, instead of analyzing hockey, I used to analyze price fights. Most of the UFC, also a little bit of boxing and K-1. And I mentioned this because I feel like competitive fights at the highest levels are rarely one or loss because one participant is particularly deficient in some area or lack in mechanics of a certain kind. It's not often, I think, about what is fundamentally wrong with one party so much as it is. is the kind of the rhythm of, say, a fighter that went right at the right time.

And I think we're seeing the hockey version of that. Like, if you're just looking at shot tolls, yes, Dallas has been, broadly speaking, the better team. I feel like Vegas has broadly speaking to have been the better team in transition. So it may not seem like it with Dallas winning three in a row, but these have all kind of functionally been one goal games. And I think the difference is that Dallas has started to develop more of that rhythm, which has led to draw more penalties. that's been huge, way more takeaways,

and which I'm pretty sure they lead all playoff teams with and really capitalize on this kind of mid-series sequence of staying composed, but also playing with an edge. And so I think this pocket of momentum has kind of created the right breaks. And like you, I'm a big proponent of data for the simple reason that I trust my brain more than my eyes. But there's definitely a kind of team with something to prove chip on their shoulder. And a lot of that is fueled not by veteran experience.

You hear that Rick bonus? but by enthusiastic legs. And that's been like the big story to me. Well, I think everyone, it's interesting you bring that up as sort of your background because I do think while it's not necessarily traditional, and I share the same thing, right? I come from basketball. So I kind of come with a unique lens to sort of viewing and analyzing hockey and doing all these breakdowns.

But I think like, I think everyone's familiar with this concept of styles make fights, right? In particular, I think that lends itself to playoff analysis because you have these sort of two teams that match up in different ways and they're both trying to accomplish different things specifically and then how they react to that is important. And the reason why I bring that up and you sort of note the concept of momentum there is I was thinking about how these games have played out so far, particularly, I mean, I'd say all five even, maybe more so the last three where you think about game three, Dallas comes out scorching hot, right? They're just peppering Vegas with chance after chance. Yet they don't necessarily have.

anything to show for it on the scoreboard. And Logan Thompson certainly played really well. He was making a bunch of high degree of difficulty saves to keep Vegas in it. But Dallas hasn't really been able to separate itself yet in this series, regardless of what the shot counter or what the chances are like. And Vegas is always seemingly, they look like they're on the ropes. And then all of a sudden they're one shot out. They tie it up quickly.

They're back in it. And it's like, oh, man, how could Dallas not distance themselves from us, considering how well they've played? and I'm sure how well they feel they've played. And I think that brings us to what makes Vegas such an interesting team in this postseason setting because they are so good, in my opinion, at absorbing the opponent's momentum, and then almost like absorbing all that speed and momentum and then just dishing it back at them in full force with one perfectly executed counter, right?

And I think you see that in this. And it's anecdotal on my end. Like I haven't really been able to figure out how to quantify it. I think it's way above my head and my pay grade. Maybe we can get like Michael McCurdy or something to look at this. But I was positing this theory in the Discord, actually before we went on air with some fellow listeners about how I think Vegas probably leads the league in goals scored immediately after their opposition's expected goals spike. Because I think like they allow you in a way to just generate all of these chances on them. And then all of a sudden, when they look like they're at their lowest point, that's exactly when they're going to strike.

And if it happens a couple times, you're like, oh, man, they got lucky, they got fortunate. But I think there is something to that kind of strategic robidope in a way. And I think you have seen that in the series. Yeah, by the way, isn't that Kevin Bacon's superpower in X-Men first class? Maybe. The whole of the, anyways, silly references aside. You know, I'm glad you mentioned that because I think it is important for Stars fans, especially, to not get ahead of themselves.

I think Vegas is still doing really well in the neutral with their passing. which I always found funny because the Knights don't have any stars that grade out like in, they don't have like a bunch of stars, right? You have Eichol and then a grab bag and yet they grade out as an elite pass in team. I mean, this is a team that was per Corey Schneider's tracking data, third and behind the net passes, third in center lane passes, and fourth in passes low to high. And Jack Conn had a really good write-up on their kind of re-entries and diagonal plays in the rush

and how kind of slowing it down can be precisely. what speeds their attack up. And Vegas is still absolutely doing this to Dallas. I mean, that was the thing that worried me going into game five, which is that, well, worried me as a Starz fans, obviously if you're a Vegas fan, less so. But I feel like Vegas looked more like themselves in the previous game. And if you look at the difference in this series,

like just in terms of goals, it's really come down to the Knights taking penalties. And, you know, some of those impossible angle goals from game four. So, so yes, I think Dallas is kind of forced, forced Vegas to take penalties, and I think great teams get lucky breaks. Vegas is one of them. Last year, they had the highest shooting percentage and even strength of any playoff teams since 2007.

But I would expect the rest of the series to take place at even strength, which I think slightly favors Vegas. And that was the Cam Sharon finding from last year, I think, which is that the refs, they technically call more penalties in playoffs than in the regular season, but they do put away the whistles in elimination games. So I think in Vegas kind of has a chance to really kind of get back into the series being at home, breaking the spell of the home teams like losing all their games after the other night. Maybe this is this is kind of their chance. If it's just played an even strength, we're going to see more of this sort of back and forth.

Well, I've tracked the scoring chances myself for this series. And here they are. And I'm going to tell you that I'm breaking down from game one to game five because I think they really neatly and accurately. depict how this series is sort of transformed and played out. So game one, it was 13 to 12 for Dallas. So very close, very low event. Game two, 14 to 13 for Vegas. Similarly, so game three, 35 to 18 for Dallas. That's when they poured it on. I believe like 25 of those were in the first half of the game. Game four, 22 to 18, Vegas. So the events have kind of ramped up slowly, but Vegas did play better. And I thought, I thought, kind of carried a lot of that play. And then Dallas scored a few goals.

kind of late in that second or whatever to take control of it. Game 5, 25 to 12 Dallas. And I was texting you about how you wouldn't know it just looking at the scoreboard, but I thought that was low-key, one of the more dominant performances you've seen, because Vegas wasn't really able to get anything. And even in the way Dallas defended that third period lead for the entirety of it, obviously what stands out is that amazing Jake Godinger save going laterally where he sticks his pad out and stops the Chandler-Stevenson breakaway. But that was really the only chance that I thought was even remotely threatening to Vegas gone on that game. Maybe there was one where kind of Michael Amadio came in and passed

it on his backhand cross-ice to Carlson and he got a bit of a clean look. But for the most part, Dallas was keeping everything to perimeter and almost giving Vegas some of their own medicine in that regard. And so as this series has progressed, as those scoring chances indicate, I do think that sort of the style or the terms of engagement between these two teams have started to shift slowly in Dallas's preferred pace, I think. Like regardless of obviously Vegas won the first two games, so I think they were very happy with how the series started for them. But I think those scoring chances that I just told you,

how low it was in the low teens was something that they prided themselves on, right? That defensive effort, that ability to kind of put that defensive shell in the slot and prevent Dallas from really getting anything towards their goalie and insulating Logan Thompson. And as the series has progressed, Vegas has started to slowly kind of find ways to burst through, and I think that's reflected itself in those scoring chance totals. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, I wouldn't add really anything else to that, except that Vegas is, I feel like that sort of that net front presence that Stankovin and Johnston are so good at has kind of been sort of an inspiration for a lot of the other forwards.

Vegas actually last in the playoffs and rebound shots allowed. So that's absolutely been a factor. And again, I go back to like, it really. I mean, tactically, we can look at like certain things, right? Sort of the way Vegas works in the neutral zone, kind of relying on their forwards, good for creating an odd man rushes. But I think Dallas is relying, it seems to me at least. And I've only rewatch, I think I only rewatch game to track in some other things.

But I think you are seeing Dallas rely a little less on the middle of the ice, trying to kind of spam rush entries and more on trying to generate the countertacks as you mentioned, really kind of, especially attack with the way they're attacking their top line and along the wall. And I just think to me, it just goes back to Johnson and Stancoe and just really leading the way in this regard. And you're seeing that kind of trickle down effect for even the veterans, like Ben, who has been fantastic. And I haven't really liked Ben's game all that much, like, or at least through the regular season. It's been productive, yes, really good impacts on offense. but I always thought like

defensively, you know, even that goal that he had, I think it was in game one, where he just completely cherry picks. And it wasn't like a great read because Johnson was in the middle of like a 50, 50, 50, 50 battle, and Ben just blows the zone. And great, it leads to a goal.

But I'm just saying, like, Ben's defense has been a little bit of a question mark for me. I didn't necessarily like the sort of that goal, but it was great that it was a goal. however, I do think that he's also a player along with Sagan finding this next gear and also being just stalwarts defensively. Certainly. I also went back funny enough to rewatch Game 2. And it's interesting that we both picked, I think, the most aesthetically unpleasing or displeasing game of the series.

But I really want to watch it because I do think people that have been following this series and are listening to the show are probably curious with this opening questions. that I kind of posited to you of like, how did this series change, right? Because it was 2-0-0, and now all of a sudden Dallas was 1, 3 in a row. So I watched that back trying to sort of find any differences in it that would help explain that or kind of clues that would point us in that direction. And my big impression is honestly that history really is written by victors because I think everyone just came away from that being like, well, Vegas won. So they must have done something remarkably well, which isn't to take anything away from them

because particularly in that third period, Dallas really didn't get any good looks in Vegas just kind of stunk their claws in and brought it into that game state that I just said they preferred. But Dallas also, I think, if you go back and watch it, had so many chances early on

where they did get a three on two or a two on a one or a breakdown down low where someone was open with one-on-one versus Logan Thompson. And the puck kind of like bounced on them or they bubbled it and it didn't wind up materializing into an event. so it wasn't tracked or recorded as such. And that kind of gave us the impression of amazing defense.

But ultimately, Dallas was still in the right place. They just weren't able to execute. Now, the postseason comes down to execution, right? It doesn't. That idea of moral victories or, oh, the process was right. If you wind up losing four out of seven, that doesn't really do you any good. But I think in this case, in trying to kind of figure out, all right, how did this team all a sudden shift from that performance in game two to what happened in game three?

I think that's an important distinction. And maybe Vegas should get a bit of credit for it because, you know, their defensive style is so maddening at times with their stick work and their ability to kind of perfectly time your shot or your pass to block it or just kind of tip it and get in the way of it. They're so good at that. And they have been for the past two years. And maybe that does kind of plant the seat of doubt in the mind of a player playing against them where all of a sudden now that frustration starts seeping into your decision making. maybe you're trying to make an extra pass where you don't need one. Maybe you're shooting more quickly

than the kind of opportunity allows itself to, I'm sure there's some sort of the kind of like byproduct to that. So maybe that is credit to Vegas's defense. But ultimately, I think it was interesting to rewatch that game too compared to like what my lasting impression was it when I watch live. Yeah, no, it's really,

the playoffs are kind of an interesting sort of petri dish for this kind of tension between sort of process and outcomes, right? Where sort of a good process may not necessarily lead to a good outcome and vice versa. And there does seem to be kind of a factor of players, especially on Vegas's side, kind of being a little frustrated that, you know, some of their typical sort of tactics are sometimes less effective, although not always. And, you know, you kind of really saw that, you know, come to a head with, you know,

Alex Petrangelo haymaker, backhand haymaker to Tyler Shagin's nose. But, you know, again, like Petrangelo is a player with this kind of history, right? He's a very intense player. May not be the most physical, but he certainly plays with an edge. And I do feel like, I think you've even seen it in Jack Eichel. And I think one of the reasons why you've seen that in Jack Eichael is something that I want to note, which is that, which while here are the minutes that Eichol has played versus Chris Tannaf from game one to game five.

Nine minutes, nine minutes, 11, 8, and 10. And essentially, Cassidy has largely ignored the fact that most of Tannes' minutes are dedicated to shutting down Ikel. And that's pretty much exactly what he's doing. So I think there's also kind of this battle within the battle of these matchups that aren't necessarily favor in Vegas,

which is kind of leading to some of this frustration. And maybe that's kind of why they're taking it out on each other. but that's also been an interesting element and kind of one of the reason why, like you, when I went back to game two, I was really interested in watching these singular matchups. As opposed,

yes, it's obviously fun to kind of, you know, go through some of the tactics and neutral zone play. Well, maybe not fun, but, you know,

it's a thing that needs to be done if you want to kind of understand this. It's a labor of love. Yes. Yeah. Because I don't know that looking at the series in the broadststress,

It's necessarily going to lead to you understanding why one team is better than the other. Yeah. Well, speaking of TANF, I mean, we have to shout him out because he is pitching a perfect game right now, essentially. 5-1-5, 103 minutes so far, goals, 5-0, high danger chances, 27 to 6. And Icault has been the primary matchup. Also, a ton of those minutes have come against Vegas' most prolific offensive defenseman in Cheath, and the other matchups have essentially been against that hurdle stone pairing when they've been together.

And so what he's done in those minutes against those guys, given his role and responsibility, is just absolutely world-class and shouldn't necessarily be surprising because we've spoken very highly about him. Last time you and I got together at the end of the regular season, we glowingly spoke about the impact he's made on this team. But you can see it kind of firsthand here in terms of what a guy like that in a series like this where there's a specific sort of pressure point

that you need to deal with with your opposition, best offensive option, his ability to play this way against him is just remarkable. And what a luxury that is for Pete DeBurda have a guy like that. Yeah. I mean, we, I mean, like there's really, TANF is just kind of everything that you could ask for really in a defenseman, like I think period, especially in kind of modern hockey where it's, it's, you want, you don't necessarily want those kind of peaks and valleys. You want that sort of that mesa, that just kind of that plateau.

and TANF is just kind of the ultimate and just sort of stabilizing the behavior of really like an entire blue line. And, you know, I don't believe, and of course the thing that I always like going back to you, which is that, you know, this is also a talented player. This is a player that leverages actual talents between his pass and puck handling and really just skate in a really, I think, offensive way that just happens to be in the defensive zone, which is why he's so effective. But I don't believe, I do want to mention this because I'm curious to hear your thoughts. I don't believe in the idea per se, the defenseman effect save percentage. I know Garrett Hall has done some pretty extensive research on this, but, you know, that was back in 2014. And I know that David Johnson, who used to work for the devils, if I'm not mistaken, is a proponent of this theory. So I'm not convinced, but I do wonder a little, right?

Because according to Evolvin hockey's model, Dallas does have the top ranked defensive court in the playoffs. and I know the stars are second shots allowed off the rebound, and a big part of that is TANF. And I would argue that he's been the best defender across both teams. And the crazy thing is I don't even think it's particularly close. So, you know, not being on the ice for a single goal against any of the even strength is kind of one thing. But maybe it's not a coincidence that Odinger has kind of looked like Audinger. I mean, not necessarily, right?

I mean, he seems to get stronger as a series goes on. He's led in like a few softies. I do sometimes wonder about that. Well, he hasn't given up, what is the stat that he hasn't given up a single third period or overtime goal in the series so far in the five games, which is obviously very important. I'm of two minds of it to answer your question

because I think on a macro level, I'm a bit skeptical because ultimately, like one player's ability to influence the same percentage that's not the goalie is going to be very hard to come by just because there's going to be so many random bounces or, you know, they might be like hopping over the board so, like, come on the ice and all of a sudden they're inheriting a very vulnerable position and it wasn't necessarily their fault. Like, you're going to have that stuff over the course of a large enough sample that I think is going to, regardless of how well you play defensively, you're just going to be on the ice for goals against. And that's just the nature of the sport.

I do think, though, like particularly in the public metrics, they're just, unfortunately, the blind spot right now is there's no time and space consideration. And for a player like Tanev, you see sort of his ability. to time stuff, to get in the way to obviously, like the block shots are one thing, and those don't necessarily even impact the same percentage because they're not registered shots on goal, but his ability to, with certain patterns and positioning to kind of influence a shooter's ability to get a preferred shot off, even if they're getting it from a good air in the ice, I do think is a real thing. And the list of guys who can actually say that as like a repeatable skill is probably very low in the league, but I do think he still, at this point of his

career is one of those guys. So I do think there's certainly something to that. I want to talk about why Johnson a lot. We got to take a little break here, though, quickly. And I don't want to start the conversation about him because I'm worried that it's just going to take us the rest of the way. And so maybe we should kind of squeeze in our break here. And then when we come back a little tease, we're going to jump right back into it, talk about Wyatt Johnson and do all that fun stuff with David Castillo. So looking forward to that, you're listening to the Hockey PEOcast streaming on the Sports Nair radio network. All right. We are back here in the Hockeypedeocast, joined by David Castile Today we're talking stars, Golden Knights.

David, we teased before we went to break that we were going to get into a full Wyatt Johnson conversation. And it's about time we do. So I can't believe we made it through 20 plus minutes so far after today's episode without even really referencing him because his fingerprints have been all over this series. And I'll start off with this. I had in that aforementioned Discord and I'm going to keep shouting it out on these shows because it's so fun.

You have to get in there. If you listen to the show and you're not in there, you're just missing out because every night we're having these conversations. They're remarkably fun. and a lot of thought-provoking stuff in there. So get in there, the end by the show notes. But I had this kind of cheeky comment in passing.

I think it was during game one or two. I forget which one. But it was after he had had another series of scoring chances where he was really distinguishing himself. And just in passing, I was like, I'm growing increasingly confident that why Johnson is just flat out Dallas's best forward.

And this isn't like on a permanent basis or, you know, based on role or anything like, I think just like full stop. he is their best option at creating a high danger look and then turning that into a goal. And that's what matters right now. And so I think just flat out, he's their best forward despite all the guys that, you know,

even the veterans, but also certainly hints and Povelloski and about Robertson and so on and so forth. He's their best. And nothing in games three or four since then or game five have done anything to dissuade that notion. The fact, if anything, they've reinforced it. How do you feel about that and just his performance so far? Let's kind of get into that and talk about the way he's been able to impact the series because it's just been absolutely outstanding. You really need to put more mustard on the word certainly with the certainly with HINS part.

But maybe we'll get to the less. Oh, we're going to get to Hens. Don't worry about that. Okay. All right. It's there really isn't. Honestly, like I struggle to think of. And to me, that's always how I think of and define.

elite players, as if a comparable is not automatic. If, you know, someone that, you know, just kind of like, I mean, I guess like there are certain things about like hints when I kind of, especially his puck protection. I kind of sometimes think of like prime borracheck. But it's, it's really impossible to kind of understate just like how important having a 20 year old kid that was drafted 23rd overall in the 2021 draft. is the best forward. Because I don't think it's particularly close either.

I mean, he's, he kind of, he does, it's funny. Like, if you look at the, oh, your peers over there, your colleagues over there at EP Ringsside, right? Mitchell Brown, Lassie Allen. They, you know, a lot of those that tracking data on Johnston at the time in his junior career was, yes, this was a good shot generator, but he was much better playmaker. we have not seen that per se like on the whole but i think that's changed with stankovin's presence

and you're just seeing one of the most well-rounded forwards like i would say in the game today in terms of just his ability to run routes his ability kind of like this oddly structured sort of three-zone presence um that's also just like unhinged He's just like unleashed at times. And it's not like people aren't trying to put a body on him. They are. That was always the criticism even from like Stars fans. Ah man, you know, Johnson seems good, but he needs to put on muscle.

No, no, he doesn't. He's got a force filled around him and he's, I don't know how to talk about Johnston intelligently without just saying stuff. Like, he's awesome. He's so cool, man. He's elite. You know, that's kind of why I like my Twitter sticky. at this point. Well, especially, I think it's fair, though, because his best skill right now is just

his ability to, regardless of who's out there or what's happening, just always be open in the inner slot. And it's kind of like a difficult thing because that's just the reality of the situation. So it's tough for us to kind of like come up with all these creative hockey terms and like cool lingo to describe what's happening beyond that. It's like the most difficult thing to do in today's game is particularly like people can get open off the rush certainly because there's just more space and you generally have a numerical advantage so it's easier to get open but in a set defensive zone environment where they're attacking regardless of the five-on-five situation or who's playing against them he's always open and even if the other team thinks they have them covered they don't

and so it's that's just a remarkable skill and i think that's something that very few players have and he's already shown that he possesses it can i put you on the spot real quick yep Would you take Johnston one overall in a 2021 redraft? That's up against Owen Power, Simon Edwitson, Luke Hughes. Yeah. Yeah, I think Owen Power is the only, let me pull up that class right now because obviously I, that's not my area of expertise for our website there at AP Ringsside, but I will say that Owen Power just because of like positional,

positional difficulty, I guess, and the ability to find a defender like that and his ability to drive offensive impacts, particularly himself from that position, is so rare. So I think that's the only kind of like interesting comp in this regard. I think all of the other forwards, though, he has certainly kind of gone head and shoulders above them at this point.

So, yeah, I mean, absolutely outrageous. And let me give you some of the stats so far to kind of help quantify all that. Rather than us just saying that he's really cool and really cool. Yeah, yeah. So five games, three goals, three assists. He interestingly leads all-stars forwards and ice time in this series, which I think does kind of reflect how well he's playing and also how much the coaching staff is just like fully entrusting him and realizing that the time is now and this isn't some

sort of like future thing where it's like, oh, this is really exciting to get excited about for what he can do down the road. Like, no, that's happening right now and they're sort of acting accordingly. 48 shot attempts, 21 shots on goal. I have him down for 25 scoring chances in these five games. To put that into perspective, Jason Robertson is second on the team with 10. So he has 15 more than anyone else on the team.

And in game three alone, I think he had 12. So he had more in that one game, which was about as dominant, a two or four's performance for one players. You're going to see in a playoff setting. He had more in that one game than any star forward has in the entire series. I said he's always open.

I just, it's been remarkable. the only player that Vegas has really had any sort of success in terms of like corraling him a little of it and blanketing him has been unsurprisingly William Carlson. And he's still gotten some looks, but it's been, I think, a bit more suppressed. And that just speaks to how awesome Carlson is himself and those types of matchups. He's only played about 22 minutes out of Johnson's 77 at 515 so far in this series. He's feasted against the Nick Waugh matchup. He's feasted against Stone and Stevenson.

And so I think looking ahead to the series, game six is going to be in Vegas. Obviously, Bruce Cassie is going to have the advantage of last change. I think he needs to seek out that matchup a bit more because right now for as good as Dallas has been in terms of generating chances and shots and everything we've talked about so far, he's such an engine for that that if you can kind of make his life a little bit more difficult, I think Vegas has to probably feel pretty good about their opportunities to win all the other minutes. And so I think they almost need to invest all their resources in trying to kind of control that matchup a little bit because otherwise they just have. I've had no real kind of answer or recourse for doing so so far. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, like from the Vegas perspective, I think sort of William Carlson is kind of really sort of that player that sort of time for God. I mean, like he's still really effective.

And this does feel like a series where you might want that classic sort of kind of trying to match lines sort of, you know, approach. Obviously, it's harder to do against a team with depth like Dallas. but when you have a player like Johnston, and of course, Stan Coven, then you really have to just kind of accept the fact that, well, you know, you can either let this particular line run away of the series or you can contain them as best you can

and just kind of hope, you know, the you can sort of win the kind of margins for error in other matchups. Because they really, like you just laid it out. I mean, laid it out. Johnson is incredible. And it's because, like, he does so many things, that are both obvious with his shooting ability and not so obvious with his ability to anticipate, you know, sort of when the puck is going to be around the net.

But of course, like, I really think that Stancoven kind of deserves a lot of credit here. Because, again, like, to me, we're through the look and glass when it comes to, oh, these young players, like you said, these young players, man, they want a great story. No, they're like part of this core. There may be some of the best forwards on the ice across two elite teams. And I think for Stankovin, when it comes with like Ford motion and velocity, Stankovin is really kind of like the whole of my beer of NHL wingers. And we give him a lot of credit for being, you know, what I like to call the endless Ford, which is a nod to one of my favorite obscure Japanese mixed martial artists, by the way,

Mitsihiro Shita. I know no one will get that reference, but he's an endless forward. And I know like Darry Belfrey kind of talked about this, not just because he moves fast because he's got elite mindfulness. this. There was that pass like the other game where just, he was like at the blue line and just intercepted it from, you know, 30 feet away. And intercepting passes like across like entire zones has been kind of part of what he can do. And I actually thought DeBore was crazy to return Babelski back to the top unit after the game three performance where they just went ballistic.

but he generates so much on his own that it's kind of moot. And I think it's to Stan Cohn's credit that, well, you know, he was taken away from Ben Dushain, which was a great line. And yet sort of kind of didn't quite skip a beat. And I think he's been just maybe not as key as Johnson has because Johnson's just a better finisher. But I do think kind of going back to the data on Johnson and juniors and his profile as more of a playmaker. is something that we haven't seen really kind of challenge until now, and that's, to me, been because of Stancovin.

You know what Stancovin is? I'm making this up right now, but he's a side mirror player because, and I tweeted this meme, I think, during game three or four, but he's an object. Are closer than they appear player, because you can sort of see it when Vegas is breaking out up the middle of the ice, obviously early in the series, there was that notable example of him doing the Markstone to Mark Stone where he back-checked him into oblivion and just pick-pocketed him and then turned it into a goal.

But he's done that countless times that haven't necessarily been highlight reels for the mass audience. Their highlight reel plays for me, and I guarantee you I will put together a mix at some point here of all of them, so it will turn into a highlight reel. But his ability on the back-check to essentially close speed like that

where you can almost see that the player breaking it up the middle feels like in a regular circumstance, they're comfortable because they're like, all right, I've timed this out. I've done it's a million times. I've got some time and space here to skate the puck up. And then all of a sudden, he's just there before they know it. And they've like shoulder checked a couple times.

And then in between them, he's cut that ground in half. And so his ability to impact the game that way, you know to this, how he like just jumps routes and how he can pick pucks off and stuff. It's really the best combination of a lot of habits that you see from like a, a grinding third liner, right, in terms of that motor and puck pursuit and competitiveness with the skill level of a bona fide first line player, right? Because he also leads this team in 15 scoring chances set up and is a big reason why Johnston has so many scoring chances himself in this series. And that's because he's so able to, and it's very fitting that he's

doing this in a series with Mark Stone because that has been Mark Stone's best skill for all these years turning those turnovers immediately into scoring chances, right? And you're seeing that here where he'll take the puck away and then before the opposing defense can get back into position, he'll make a high danger pass across to someone and they'll get a great look. And so that combination of defense with the playmaking and skill level is just unbelievable. I mean, that first goal, he set up in game five to Dadaunov. It was a great sort of puck reception and then finished by Dadaunov himself. But you could almost see that I forget who the defender was and even Aiden Hale and Nett, I don't think either of them thought that that puck was going to be able to get through.

And myself watching at home live, I thought that he had sort of waited too long and had run out of real estate. And the puck was just going to get intercepted or hit the diving players' legs. And instead, it somehow got through this tiny little window and wound up being a goal. And so that's just next level skill that's a bully on display pretty much every time he gets the puck. That was basically a goal line pass. It really was. Yeah. kind of what it felt like.

And I think, you know, everyone talks about the Dallas's 2017 draft, but I think that 2021 draft class feeling like it's right up there. I mean, Dallas basically drafted two top three forwards. And I do mean top three, right? Per Jonathan Wilson's classic rubric, you know, top three forward, as opposed to top six forward will give you between two and two point four, two point five points per hour at even strength. Stancoven and Johnston, both sit within or above that range.

So, yeah, just can't be understated enough how critical these players are, not just as good young forwards, but as elite forwards period. Yeah, someone responded to one of my tweets saying, wow, Stancove is amazing. He's the best stars rookie I've seen since last year. So, yeah, I think the degree of difficulty of both those guys obviously not being premium draft slot picks either, right? kind of helps validate, I guess, the idea that that could almost rival that hallowed class that you spoke about previously.

Do you want to talk a little bit about hints here? Because his only goal has come on an empty net, right? And it did seal a game. So that was an important one, certainly. But he has yet to beat a Vegas goalie. He hasn't gotten the looks that I think we've become accustomed to seeing from them in past versions, particularly last year's postseason when he was. just running wild. He's got nine shots on goal, eight scoring chances, 20 shot attempts in five

games. And on the one hand, like, he's eating up a majority of the Eichol minutes, right? They're kind of going head to head as the primary matchup. So I think that's an important distinction here. And that's a trend all season where Pete DeBore really kind of slanted his and Robertson's usage towards more of a defensive role. And I think that explains some of the offensive drop-off for them. But I do think there are some alarming things that stretch back to the regular season. Like when you know I spoke last, I think we noted how he had been scoring goals, but a lot of them had been kind of greasy ones where he was going to the net front

and tipping bucks in or jamming in rebounds. And I can't remember the last time we saw him come down the wing and from the perimeter rip a puck past the goalie the way we've kind of come to grow up and know and love. And that would be a very useful skill in this series in particular because Vegas does give you those kind of perimeter-based shots and they're so good of protecting inside. but they will give you the opportunity to step in. And that theoretically should be his one advantage in a series like this. Yet he hasn't even really tried it for the most part, I don't think.

He challenged Alex Petrangelo once off the rush in Game 5 and actually got it to the net, but didn't wind up getting a good look off. But I thought that was encouraging that he at least was aggressive in that regard. But otherwise, there just hasn't been nearly enough with that, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm not going to make excuses, says the guy who proceeds to me. excuses, but I do think you have to concede that kind of like with the whole sort of the styles make fights kind of philosophy. And I think if styles make fights, then it makes sense that those quote fighters will be more or less effective against a certain style. So I think like I agree that

you know kind of part like Vegas should theoretically be a little bit more favorable for Hints. But I do think I do think Hintz's speed is kind of misunderstood. Like even by Stars fans. Like Yeah, he's fast, but he's fast in full stride. Like, he needs time, space, and anticipation to get there. Because if you're judging him strictly on his first step or his acceleration, I mean, that part of skating is not elite. I mean, he's not like McKinnon or David where he can just kind of create that speed out of nothing. Or even Stancovin.

Stank, it's like he's great in doing that. And I think what you're kind of seeing is, yes, the increased level of competition. But I do think another factor in this. And it's kind of something that we, as much as I like, hate to do it because great story. Everyone wants to see him win a cup. But Joe Pavelsky has just not been, not that I'm blaming,

because I think you can look at hints himself, even just his body language and some of the frustration that really kind of reveals itself in some of these games. I think you can look at hints and kind of judge him on his own. But I do think when you consider the way his speed functions, that Pavelsky in particular just not even being an option on a lot of these breakouts. Like, Povellsky has not just like hit a wall, but like, I mean, he's just been really,

really bad to the point where like sometimes his awareness is not even there. He'll just get puck jacked, a guy like 10 feet behind him, not anticipating the way he used to. And I think because I tend to believe in sort of quality of linemates as as a crucial factor in player performance, I do think Povellski has really been kind of this sort of, kind of leaned on hints and I think influence part of his play. But that's, again, that's not to necessarily make excuses, right? Because I guess the thing is I look at like Johnson, Stankhoven and Ben, that's a trio that there's really no weak link.

Even as much as I criticize Ben's defense, there's no weak link there. And so in some ways you can kind of look at hints in the same way you can look at maybe like Sagan and Duchenne, who have also struggled. where, you know, Vegas is kind of neutral zone passivity, it kind of creates problems for these players that otherwise kind of rely on on sort of this, you know, kind of built up speed as opposed to, you know, players that can kind of just jailbreak the defense at times. Yeah, I think it doesn't help certainly, and you've seen it in this series. I think part of it is the age and even in the later stages of this season, I don't think it was necessarily the player he'd been in the past. but in this particular matchup, a lot of Joe Pabelsky's strengths, unfortunately, get neutralized, particularly offensively, right?

I think there's still some connectivity stuff in the neutral zone and work on the walls that I think he can still thrive in and put them in advantageous positions. But we've spoken about how Vegas is sort of intensely aggressive fronting in the defensive zone and not just sitting back and letting you tip pucks and screen, but going out of their way to get in front of you and block those shots has essentially taken away Joe Povelsky's greatest

offensive skill in this series. He got the one kind of backdoor tap-in that almost that he just missed the net on in game five. And that was a bit of a shame because it would have been interesting. I mean, it would have been nice to see him get a goal and finally get on the score sheet, but maybe that could have got him going a little bit. But for the most part,

the opportunities just haven't been there. I mean, you look, he's played 86 minutes so far. He's got the zero points. He's got four scoring chances in that time. And a lot of it has been either with Hinson Robertson or with Ben on the second line, right?

And so the fact that it's just not there for him right now, I think does tie into this where all of a sudden now you're just going to have to do more if you're Robertson and hints. And I think like the context of that probably needs to be applied here when you're evaluating everyone's performance and not just Pavelskis. Yeah, I think the other thing kind of just to add to that, which is that I think with hints, you know, again, certainly not a given. Series is not over.

But I do think HINS is a player whose talents and skills and ability would absolutely come more alive in a series, for example, versus Colorado. So, like, this is, yeah, I don't think Hince is done. I think he's still to me, like, just a really great player. And, and, yeah, I think the Vegas matchup just doesn't really favor his kind of style. And, you know, even Robertson to a lesser extent, I think sort of as a player that, um, that who's kind of sacrificed a little bit of his offense for much better defense. And, and I think that kind of has like a slight residual effect on Hince as well. Yeah, I mean, I thought, I think Eichols look amazing in this series, unsurprisingly.

And yet him and Hins have played 33 minutes, five or five against each other and Gold are 2-1, Vegas in that time. And everything is pretty even. So it's remarkable how like the perception or the visual of what you think of how the guy looks like. And then you actually look at what's been produced. as a result. And it's like, well, I think if you're in Dallas, you know, you'd certainly like to see him start scoring more because that's what he's paid to do and you need him as a

frontline player for you. But ultimately, if you're coming out relatively, even in that type of matchup, you have to favor your depth. And I think we have seen that, right, where Dallas has been able to kind of find scoring sources from other players and get contributors along the way. So I think that's an interesting thing. You know, it's interesting you bring up Colorado there because earlier on we were talking about how I think Vegas is. the best in the league at absorbing momentum and then countering and scoring. And I think that would make for a fascinating sort of foil for Colorado in a round two matchup if they were able to come back and win this series at the risk of kind of looking too

far ahead because obviously there's still a lot to be decided in this series. But on the other side, if Dallas were to finish this off and come through it, in thinking about Jake Onger's performance and kind of what that would look like, obviously I think he would be tested significantly more by Colorado than Vegas has been able to muster. so far. And before we went on the air, I was actually watching, you know, they do those like player availability after the season's over and they go up to the podium and they answer a bunch of questions and they talk about the future and all that and what happened on the series. And in Hellebuck's portion, he was talking about how he essentially said that he felt that he

was playing like the best hockey of his career. And then in this series against Colorado, he just never saw the puck. And I think Mike Kelly had the stat where 10 of Colorado's goals against Halibuck were ones where he was just screened and he could not locate the puck at all on it. And so that would be an interesting thing in a future round two series between Dallas and Colorado because they've already shown Colorado has that with guys like Nchuschen and Lekin and in front of the net, they can cause all sorts of havoc and create offense that way. And Dallas has struggled a little bit in this series against those kind of high tips that Vegas has been creating, right?

With hurdle and with Stone and with various other players, even guys like Nick Kwaan Kohlassar have sort of given them some trouble that way. And so that's an interesting thing to think about in terms of what a round two matchup will look like between those two teams. There's so many dynamics. But I think just that idea of they've struggled against that in this series. And if you're Colorado and you're sort of pre-scouting, you're preparing for it, you must be like kind of looking at that and being like, all right, I think we could do some serious

damage with that. Well, I mean, it's you add to that as well as the whole five defenseman thing that Dallas is running. And, and I, like, I just, I personally, you know, I hate to get into, like, criticism of Dallas because I think they're playing a really, they're just playing great hockey right now. And it's not perfect hockey, but it's the hockey that they need to play against this Vegas team. And again, a Vegas team that defendants stand like up champs, a better lineup than they were last year. I think it really says a lot about what the Stars team is capable of what they can do. But, you know, and kind of like sort of getting ahead of ourselves.

And thinking about that Colorado matchup, you know, that is one of the things that I do criticize DeBoer for. Because I don't think there's really an interesting excuse here. Like, and I don't necessarily buy DeBoer's argument that, oh, loading up their minutes in the playoffs is the reason they played less in the regular season. I mean, does anyone think those minutes would look like this if Dallas had Yanni Hockenpa in the lineup? Like, I just, I don't think so. And the players will say what they need to because they all want to be on the ice. And but whether or not they can handle it to me is besides the point. the real question is what is the long-term impact of that. And that's the thing. It just feels like

a bizarre risk assessment. Like Lundquist hasn't even been bad enough to ask, you know, whether or not, you know, that sort of reward. Plus, I feel like there are times, like in the moments where I do feel like there have been kind of defensive pair breakdowns, not necessarily defensive breakdowns, but just the pairs themselves kind of being out of sync. I mean, I don't know what the actual numbers are, but it has felt like these have been in situations where you had unlikely pairs, like Sutter with Lendell or Harley with Tanniff. And this is maybe a nitpick in the grand scheme of things. Maybe there's something that never factors in because you just have elite defenders that,

yeah, sure, it's going to be a stronger, you know, higher workload. But hey, it's the playoffs. Just like injuries, just like Bergeron with, what did you have? Last year was a herniated disc or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I just, I do worry that that's the, that's, that's, that's really the thing that worries me about future matchups, which is this whole five, you know, self-imposed five defensemen thing.

Maybe it won't, but, yeah. Well, I mean, there is an accumulation of wear and terror, particularly when your potential round two opponent is sitting at home and resting while you're playing these intensely physical games, right, where you're just adding on to that mileage. So, yeah, I think that's certainly a fair concern. All right, David, we got to get out here. There was other stuff that are on the cover, but we just, we got too into it, man. We had fun, as we always do.

I will let you plug some stuff on the way out here because I want people to check out the great work that you do in covering the Dallas Stars. But in this series in particular, you're a go-to source for me. So let the listeners know where they can check all that out. Well, thank you for the kind and flattering words. You can find me. I'm doing the nightly recaps of D Magazine with Sean Shapiro, what we saw, what it felt like, fun series, and then of course the Starstack, which is my personal substack, where I kind of just cover it all. In fact, the other day wrote something, a lengthy

11-minute piece on revisit the 2021 draft. Why did Wyatt Johnson fall? So substack, Starstack, D Magazine, I'm probably elsewhere, but I've like long forgotten those places. All right. Well, that is relevant reading material for the purposes today's show, certainly. I think the conversation we had about Wyatt Johnson will be. probably wet the appetite of listeners. So if they want more on that, they should definitely check that out. This is a blast man. Enjoy the rest of the series and the postseason. I'm sure we'll have you on again soon. So I'm looking forward to that. My only plugs are smash that five-star button if you enjoy today's show to help us out wherever you listen. Pop into the Discord, as I said,

the invite link is in the show notes. And that's going to be all for today. We'll be back soon with plenty more of the Hockey P.D.O.cast. So thank you for listening to us on the Sports Night Radio network.