The Hockey PDOcast - How the Flyers Are Playing This Season, and What It Means for Their Rebuild

Episode Date: December 15, 2023

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Charlie O'Connor to talk about how the Flyers have been able to surprise everyone this season, why their current playing style has been so encouraging for what they could be capable of in the future, and what it all means for their rebuild. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedio cast. My name is Dmitra Filippovich and joining me for the first time this season is my good buddy, Charlie O'Connor. Charlie, what's going on, man? Hey, Dimitri, it's great to be back on the show. I'm excited to have you on. The Flyers right now, as you all know, are 16, 10, and 3. They're seventh in the league, or seventh in the east, I should say, in point percentage.

fourth in the metro. Of course, the two metro teams they're ahead of are the hurricanes and the penguins. The two teams they're behind are the Islanders and Capitals, just as we all drew up at the start of the season. But they have got this 11 to 3 and 2 record since giving the sharks their first win of the season. And that is a loss that at the time certainly looked egregious, right? And it was easy to make fun of, but I think with each passing day looks less so as the sharks finally start to look like a real NHL team and actually rack up some wins of their own. But for as good as that is from like a results perspective, we're going to talk a lot about that and sort of how they've gotten there.

I think that element of the how in terms of how they're getting these results is what's really interesting to me and why I wanted to have you on today. And then also to kind of have a conversation about some of these combos going on behind the scenes now because of the success, right? Just because this team was expected to look and perform a certain way heading into the season. And now we're about at the 30 game mark. and it's just subverted your expectations so much. So that, of course, causes this whole conversation about rebuilding and how to do it properly

and what the goal is for this season and everything in Philly. So I think there's a lot for us to unpack there. What do you think from your perspective has been the most sort of interesting or eye-opening part of these first 30 games in terms of what surprised you the most or what you think is most notable from this Flyers group? You could give me an hour and I wouldn't be able to go through everything that surprised me about this team. I guess I would say, if you're really breaking down what surprises me the most,

it's what I assumed was going to be this team's biggest weakness. And it's the blue line core. I fully expect it, this defense core, to struggle mightily. And I don't think they've been incredible. It's not like the Flyers secretly have one of the best, you know, top sixes in terms of, you know, one through six in the league. They don't. But there have been a few developments that's kind of allowed them to hang on and produce above average numbers.

And I think the first is just the performance of Travis Sandheim. He's never been used in a true number one defenseman role. He's always kind of in the two or three in Philadelphia behind Ivan Proveroff. Obviously, they traded Ivan Proveroff in the off season. And they kind of moved Sandheim up to the number one spot because someone had to do it. It wasn't because they were particularly excited about it. Travis Sandheim had a really bad year last season. Even in past years when he struggled, he's always had really strong underlying metrics.

Last year, they even fell off a cliff. He didn't click with John Tortorella. He almost got traded to the St. Louis Blues would have been traded had Torrey crew not exercised, there's no trade clause. So the Flyers clearly had their doubts as to whether Travis Sandheim was going to bounce back. And really from the start, Sanheim has at the very least, at least done well in a very difficult role. At times he excelled. I think his his performance has come back to Earth a little bit, maybe over the last two, three weeks, but he's still performing

like an above average number one defenseman on a team that is currently in the playoff mix. And I've always been a big Travis Sandheim fan. I never expected Travis Sandheim had that in him. I thought he was a really good number three, a guy who could be, you know, the anchor on your second pair. But I did not think he could be the anchor on your first pair. And thus far, he has been that. He's getting 25 and a half minutes a night. He's got 21 points and 29 games. They've recently pulled him off the power play,

but for quite a while, he was on the, he was on all three situations. Obviously, he's a penalty killed guy. He's a big minutes 5-15 guy, and he was on the power play. And he's really just, I would say, for the most part, avoided the big mistakes that always had me viewing him more as like a Jake Gardner and his prime type,

where really good play driver, but not the kind of guy who you want facing off against top lines and top competition every night because when he would make a mistake, it would tend to be glaring. I think Sandheim has dramatically exceeded my expectations in that role. And the other guy, who is the reason why the second pair has been as strong as it's been has been Sean Walker. And this is a guy who essentially was a cap dump for L.A., a team that's obviously looking to make a push, not just to make the playoffs, but to be a legitimate contender this year. they essentially gave him away in the pro of rough deal. And Walker to this point, you know, by by some of the, the advanced models out there, like by expect a goal as RAPM and at evolving hockey, he's not just been a good defenseman.

He's been one of the best even strength defensemen in hockey. And his presence on that second pair has allowed them to use someone like Nick Seeler. And I don't think Nick Seeler is a bad player, but Nick Seeler is a true talent, third pair defense. That's what he is. and because Walker has been that good, it's allowed them to use Nick Seeler as their number four. And Walker is essentially carrying Seeler into top four respectability.

So you have Sandheim kind of, you know, not lugging around, but he's definitely elevating, I think, the play of your 22-year-old Cam York, who was still kind of trying to find his way at the NHL level on the first pair. And you have Walker elevating the play of Seeler on the second pair. and suddenly something that I viewed that was going to be a major weakness of the flyers, because I just didn't know if they had anyone who could succeed in these roles. Suddenly they have two legitimately really good pairs. And I think that's the biggest reason why they're driving play as a team to the degree

they are at even strength, which is top five, top six in the league by pretty much every category. Well, I think part of why they are driving play so far and at 5-1-5, their fifth and shot, at 54%, their fourth, inexpensive goal shared nearly 55%. is because of the distinct choice they made in terms of how they want to play this season. I think that has been the most surprising part for me because right heading into the year, I think what I expected from this group was, all right, they're probably not going to be very good.

I had them low on my watchability rankings because I just expected this to be a team that's going to try to hang on and kind of grind games out, right? Play a dump and chase style, pretty low event. Try not to get into these back and forth. they acknowledge that they don't really have the talent to necessarily compete that way against some of the other and more skilled teams in the league. And instead, they totally went the opposite way where Sport Logic has them at fourth in the

league in rush chances generated this season behind only Colorado, New Jersey and Toronto. They're 28th in the league in Offensive Zone possession time, which kind of works hand in hand with that where so much of their offense is coming off of that quick strike in transition and off of turnovers in the neutral zone. And you mentioned Sandheim there. we could also lump in guys like Kinectne who was obviously productive in a different environment last year, but Ointipid and so on and so forth. Then some of these guys have really, I think, thrived and benefited from playing in this type

of like up-tempo, more quick attack style of approach, right? And so I think that's been the most surprising thing. I keep telling people like, it's one thing that this team's winning games. And, you know, I wasn't expecting him to be 60 and 10 and 3 at the 30 game mark. But there's ways you can get there. and we see this time and time again where teams, whether it's through just unrealistically good goal tending or shooting percentage spikes, get there. And then we say, all right, well, we're waiting for the other shoe to drop the next 52 games are going to look wildly different. And they might still

for this team, but just based on the process and the way they've chosen to play this year, first off, it's been much more entertaining than I expected, but also it would lead you to believe that assuming they keep playing this way, this is much more legit than not. And that's certainly something I just didn't even think was in their range of outcomes heading into the season. Well, I think the thought process behind that from a flyer's perspective, and this goes back to the adjustments they made from the top, obviously they moved Danny Breyer from an interim general manager. He took over Chuck Fletcher at the end of last season. He's now the full-time general manager. They hire Keith Jones to be president of hockey operations. And they very much

promoted this idea of it being a new era of Orange. That was the big, marketing slogan they used. And then they went out and they drafted Mafé Mitchkov with the seventh overall pick when he slipped a bit due to multiple reasons primarily because of the Russia factor. They looked at it as we have embraced a rebuild.

We are accepting that we're not trying to squeeze as many wins or as many points out of this team as possible like we've done the last few years. Instead, we're going to try to set ourselves up best for the future. And I have a feeling that if they were trying to, it's funny because it ends up working out in their favor anyway. But if they had went into the season trying to just win as many games as possible

because everybody's trying to keep their jobs, I think they probably would have continued to play a slow pace grinded out style. But the way they looked at it is, hey, we might not have the horses to play a fast-paced controlled entry-centric game, but we want to figure out who on this team can play that game so that when we have guys like Mothay Mischoff come over and when Cutter Gotiye, their other top prospect who they took fifth overall back in 2022, when he turns pro when he leaves college and they have guys who they believe are star level talents who they want to be playing a more skill oriented game. They want to kind of prepare the team to be able to play that.

And I mean, the stats tell the story. Like I track entries for the flyers. I've done this for multiple years at 5 on 5. And, you know, last year the Flyers were a 42.24% controlled entry team by my tracking. I didn't track every single game, but I tracked about 60 or so. This year, I have them and I haven't tracked the last two games, but I've tracked the vast majority. I have them up at 50.28%.

So we're talking to. about an eight percentage point jump. They've gone for being a heavy dump and chase team to a team that is one of the more control of entry-centric teams in hockey. And I don't think that's a, I don't think it's a dramatic system change. Like, I don't think they've changed their systems. There's that much. They're still running, you know, one to two in the neutral zone.

They're still using the same de-zone structure they did last year under Torterella. It's pretty much a hallmark of what he does. The difference is is that last year, Tortorella felt, like he had to re-implement good defensive habits. That was his big thing. So one thing about Tuderell's coaching style, the centerpiece of it really are these really intense and devastating tape study sessions where he just will absolutely ream out players for making mistakes

and not doing what he wanted them to do. And last year, when guys would leave the zone a little bit early, when they would try to carry the puck in past the blue line and then turn it over and it would turn into a transition rush to the other way, Torts would ream them out. And he would, you know, basically, you know, make an example out of them that this is what you can't do. And if you keep doing this, you're not going to see CDIs. Well, I don't think it's even that they've changed their style. It's just that Torderella came into the season with the mandate from above.

And also, I think he's on board with this too, is just that I'm going to let them do those things now. I'm going to let them try to, you know, he calls the difference between anticipating and cheating. you know, in terms of blast in the zone a little bit early. He's like, we can't move into the direction of cheating, but I want them anticipating. I want them trying to stretch out the defense. I want if it's a 50-50 chance of carrying the puck into the offensive zone or maybe getting stripped of the puck,

I want them trying to carry it in. And I think it's less about a changing system and more about a change of incentives on the part of the players because once the players realize that I'm not going to get benched if I turn the puck over at the opposing blue line and it turns into a three on two going the other way, they're going to be more likely to try it, knowing that they're not going to be punished for it. And I think that's why you're seeing such a dramatic change in the way they're playing. It's not because they've overhauled their systems.

It's because John Torterell is no longer, he's no longer punishing them for making those kinds of mistakes. And he's just, he's adjusted the incentives on his team so that now the players are actually praised for making those kind of plays rather than criticize and potentially being benched for it. Which is amazing because if you told me heading into the season, I'm like, all right, listen, this team is still rebuilding. It's still trying to sort of figure out how it wants to play

and John Turtorella is going to want to get them to drill that mentality into them in terms of quote unquote playing the right way, right? I would have assumed that would mean exactly what we talked about, which is sort of just dumbing it down to like the lowest common denominator of hockey just like get the cross-center ice dump it in go hit someone get back get off the ice let the next guys come and do the same right and that's something we'd become accustomed to seeing and that's typically what teams do when they're in this position because for whatever reason

even though they expect to be bad or they expect not to compete they still like don't want to really open it up to embarrass themselves i guess or maybe it's kind of like a self-preservation tactic where you just try to cling on and slow it down and try to grind these games out which seems counterintuitive because you think, all right, this is a good time for you to experiment with potentially exotic stuff and some of it might not work, but at least you'll figure it out with nothing really to lose. And instead, they totally flipped that script, right?

They like, I think they've increased the risk profile in terms of whether it's cheating or anticipating, like just having guys being able to potentially fly the zone sometimes if they sense of the puck's going to become available, allowing guys like Sanheim, you mentioned that. I certainly didn't expect him to be like third in the league. an ice time, but it makes sense that being allowed to use his skating more and become more involved in stuff would lead to positive events for him. A lot of these guys have benefited from that.

And I did not see that coming at all. And now that sort of with that in mind, I think we should talk about the comments Torrella had a couple weeks ago, right, where I thought they were not only insightful to this process and a lot of what you talked about, but also should be highly encouraging moving forward, which was sort of essentially trying to set up that system and kind of do the groundwork of like building out this foundation so that when you infuse this organization with more higher and talent, they'll already have a ready made product and all of a sudden everyone will be able to take off and flourish. And I think that's really cool because we don't often see teams operate that way. I think there's this expectation that when you're rebuilding,

you're going to be bad and you're going to have a lot of players who aren't going to be there by the time you're good again. And then you're going to draft all of these young, highly skilled guys, and you're just going to throw them in there, and they're going to have to do it all themselves, and that team's going to become good because they're so good, right? And instead, the Flyers are going about this much more sort of organic or natural way of, like, getting the team playing the way they ideally want to play three years from now without necessarily the players to do so.

But in doing this, they've actually, in a weird way, stumbled upon a very successful formula that's actually getting more out of these players than I think they probably even thought they were capable of in this season. Yeah, and I wouldn't be surprised of a lot of this really does come from the top in terms of Danny Breyer because I'm not saying that John Tortorella isn't open to this style of play. He did have a, you know, a safest death sign up for years dating back to his time in Tampa. It was a big deal in Columbus when he basically had both Seth Jones and Zach Wrenski playing like rovers.

So I don't think it's that he's not open to, you know, you know, opening it up and playing a more fast-paced rush-oriented style. But I would not be surprised if a lot of this stems from conversations he had with Danny Breyer, because Danny Breyer obviously played more of a skill-oriented game. He was a score. That's what he was. And I suspect that Danny very much was like, I want this team playing an aggressive attacking style.

I do not necessarily want them to be a dump and chase 40% controlled entry team. for the next 10 years, which honestly, that's what Dave Haxell had them playing. That's even what Elaine Vino had the Flyers playing. That's what the Flyers have been for the better part of a decade, even when they've played well under those coaches. They were a dump and chase team. This is the most rush or re-ent that the Flyers have been probably since Peter Lavillette. It's my guess, you know, dating that far back.

So this is a wholesale shift in terms of the way the Flyers are playing. And wouldn't be surprised if it comes straight from the top. I also think that you're right. I think that, and this may speak to the traditional inclinations of guys that have been in the game for a long time, I think the people in the organization thought that by playing like this, they were going to naturally lose a lot of games. Because their view is that if we play this kind of open style, this aggressive style where we're taking risks, we're carrying the puck into the zone without superstars, we're going to turn the puck over a lot. We're going to go up a ton of high danger chances.

We're going to give up a ton of op-man russes and we're going to lose a lot of games. And that's okay because we're rebuilding. That's fine. Instead, they found out that actually this style works quite well in terms of driving play and in terms of outscoring the opposition to the point where, you know, look, this is not a team that is a contender to win a Stanley Cup by any means. But they're very much in the playoff mix and it's now the middle of December and they don't seem to be going away.

And the process behind the result. they're generating appears to be sound. So I almost wonder if they expected that this, this tactic would naturally lead to a lot of losses. And then they kind of accidentally realize that no, actually this tactic is really good. And it leads to a better process that might lead to more wins than they ever thought it could have in the first place. I mean, Charlie, Owen Tippett is tied in rush chances with Nathan McKinnon and Travis Kineckney's tied with Carter McDavid. Like, this is what we're talking about here.

And I, I mean, I love this because obviously it's much more entertaining to watch, but I also think it makes for such a fascinating case study or blueprint for what, and not to take away from the players, right? Because I think they're certainly playing well on some of these guys are developing and producing in a way that exceeded clearly my expectations. And I think there's like legitimately something there. This is not like, you know, some sort of magic act by Tortoella on the flyers, where they're just taking no names off the street

and all of a sudden juicing their totals, but just in terms of like changing the way you choose to play and what you allow your players to do and how you're like what your approach is, they've clearly stumbled upon something where they've been able to get really good process and results, especially at 5-on-5, I should say, we'll talk more about the power player here in a second,

but at even strength as a whole, let's say, out of this group by choosing strategically to do this. And they've done it without, you mentioned sort of how, okay, this exposes you to more turnover as potentially becomes risk here, well, their defensive numbers look really good too, right? They're like top 10 and goals against, expected goals against

support logic has them given up the third fewest inner slot shots. Like, there's a lot to like here in terms of how everything's coming together. I guess the one part where it hasn't come together is the power play and this is probably just a good time for us to talk about it now because this has obviously

been a recurring theme for this organization. They were 30 second inefficiency two years ago last year. Now they're 30th, but their actual goals power have dropped to an all-time low. And there's no real meaningful difference in terms of like how likely they are to score

when they're on the power play with an extra man on the ice as opposed to 5-15 or even short-handed. Like they're almost equally likely to score across all three game states right now, which is one of the most bizarre things going on in the league. And I don't know where you fall on this. I know you had a long conversation

with your co-host on your show a couple days ago, a couple weeks I don't know, it's all blending together now, but I was listening to you guys talk about how much of it is sort of personnel versus coaching, right? And sort of where the blame for this inefficiency falls. I think this is a good conversation for us to have here because I'm very fascinated for you to sort of tell me

what you think is the blame for this and whether this is sort of where that lack of high-end talent manifests itself or whether it's something that could be fixed and could be the next step for them to address in this process of, like, fixing this team offensively. Yeah, I really do think the reason why this is such a tough question to answer is because it's probably a little bit of both. I do believe that this is where their lack of true high-end talent shows.

I mean, right now, I would say the Flyers two best players are Sean Kutriere and Travis Keneckney. And while I think very, very, very highly of Sean Ketri, especially, given how well he's bounced back from two back surgeries, even when he was 27, 28 years old and when he won the Selke, he was never a driver of the power play. Claude Jureux was the driver of the power play, and Jacob Vorichick was probably the second driver of the power play.

Kuturi was like the fourth or fifth guy on that unit who just got goals because all the other pieces were really good. And then Travis Kinek, wow, I think he's very much shown how good he can be in a rush-oriented office. I think he's very much developed as a shooter. I think he's a really skilled player. He's not the kind of dynamic distributor that I think a power play really needs.

I don't think he can drive a power play in the way that that Drew could. So this is where I think they do, it does show why they need really good players. And I think they have pieces who could be good on a power play. Like I think Connect Me can be a really good piece on a successful power play. I think a Turier can be a good support cock on a top unit. You know, even guys like, you know, Tyson Forrester's developing. He has a really, really good shot. Owen Tippett, I think could be a power play guy on a good team.

You know, they have pieces that could be good on a power play. They just don't have that engine that makes it go. And I think to me, like this power play probably has the ceiling. You know, if everything was working perfectly, given the talent they have on hand, it's probably about like 17 to 19 percent, which isn't very good. And that's just because of who they have and who they don't have. The problem is, is that they're significantly worse than even that. And it's very hard to swallow that, you know, you have power plays like the San Jose

Sharks are significantly better than the power play of the Philadelphia Flyers. Like there are other teams that also lack high in town. There are other teams that aren't stocked with really good forwards up front or really good, you know, defensemen with 105 mile an hour slap shots or whatever that are significantly more effective on the power play than the Philadelphia Flyers. And that's coaching. You know, that's them not being able to find ways to put these guys in the best possible positions to succeed. Rocky Thompson is the power play coach. He also coaches the forwards. I think he's done a good job coaching the forwards.

I think, you know, we've seen progress from guys like Tyson Forrester, guys like Bobby Brink, you know, young players. And Joel Farab, he's taking a big step forward this year as well, even if I would like to see him getting a little bit more ice time to take advantage of that step forward. And guys like Owen Tippett, you know, Owen Tippett very much took a leap last year under Rocky Thompson. So it's not that I think Rocky Thompson is doing a terrible job at all aspects of his job. But I think he's doing a pretty bad job on the power play because given the players they have,

this should not be an 11% power play. It should. It shouldn't be a great power play. I don't think anyone could make this a great power play, but it shouldn't be this terrible. And people ask me, what should they do to fix it? And my answer truthfully is it's not my job to figure out how to fix it. It's Rocky Thompson's job to figure out how to fix it.

They have enough guys. They have guys like Tyson Forrester and Owen Tippett and Trappes Connectee who have plus shots, who can beat goalies clean. They have guys like more. and Frost and Bobby Brink who are legitimately good playmakers. They have guys like Sean Couturee and Noah Cates when he's healthy who can win puck battles along the boards. Like they have pieces that you could turn into a good power play.

It's just that Rocky Thompson has been unable to do it. And it's funny because Brad Shaw has done such a great job on the penalty kill. It's one of the best penalty kills in hockey. John Tortorella's systems and his tweaks to the incentives behind his systems have turn the team into a really good five-on-five team. And the power play isn't just not living up to it. It's legitimately ghastly and it's one of the worst in the league. And I think that does speak to how poor of a job the coaches are doing in terms of getting the most out of the talent they have on hand. Yeah, it's tricky because, but the power play is theoretically the game state where like design

and tactics are most prevalent, right, in terms of like drawing. You can actually sort of, as much as you can in hockey, meaningfully draw up sets that'll get guys open and get you to funnel the puck to where you want it. And if that process is sound, you know, the talent will ultimately determine how far that goes, but it should get you to clear a baseline

and clearly like 3.2 goals per hour or whatever they're at now is failing to do so. And so I think your co-host, Bill said this maybe in slightly more colorful language than I'm allowed to say here on the radio show. But unless the coaches are telling them, to go out there or not score, I don't know what they could seeably be doing from a coaching perspective to lead to these types of results. At the same time, I think part of it is,

this whole conversation ties together, right? Because everything we talked about, it even strengthened 515 is how their willingness to embrace playing this certain way off the rush has squeezed so much more juice out of the orange than we expected. Well, rush opportunities on the power play are much tougher to come by. Right. And so if that's going to be your primary source of offense or like generating neutral zone turnovers and then quickly flipping the ice and attacking downhill, you don't get into those spots because generally the opposing penalty kill as soon as they get the puck in their own zone, they fire it all the way down and then they bring a fresh set of guys out and they line up across the blue line and then they're

in their own zone and they're much less vulnerable to a rush attack. Right. And so it makes sense that on the power play, um, you'd see that like material lack of higher and talent show up more. And you'd also have a tougher time schematically glossing over some of those flaws with the roster. So all of that makes sense to me, but I still think there's got to be something more there because you watch that game. I know you were there on the road trip. The one in Colorado was really eye-opening for me because this Flyers team just comes into Colorado's rink and just attack them with this entire speed game.

We've just been talking about it. I thought it was a really impressive performance. And so you watch that and it's like clearly a skilled group that has something to offer there. And I just think there should be some more tie-in there on the power play than we've seen. But yeah, it's going to be fascinating to follow and it's obviously something that's been recurring

so it's not necessarily a new issue. But now that they're actually winning games and it's mattering, these little edges here and there actually make much more of a difference than they might have previously seemed. All right, Charlie, let's take a quick break here. And then when we come back, we'll pick the conversation back up with you. You're listening to the Hockey-Ocast

streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. All right, we're back here on the Hockey Piediocaz joined by Charlie O'Connor. We were talking about the Philadelphia Flyers. So Charlie, before we went to break, we were talking about this team's power play, their system, the way they've been playing at even strength, the kind of this idea that they're trying to set the groundwork foundation for what this team should look like and play like when they infuse it with high in talent.

Part of that, and we heard John Torto-a-talk about that a few weeks ago, was Matt Van Mitchcock, right? And this idea that a couple years from now, once his KHL contracts up, he's going to come over. He's still going to be on his ELC. And all of a sudden, one of the perks that we talked about during this entire pre-draft process

was what that means for whichever prospective team drafts and witches, did you have this timeline to ramp up and set that stage for what should be a very productive player that's going to be able to play for you for reasonably cheap in a couple years. Now, he's obviously off to a phenomenal start in the KHL where he's got 11 goals, 26 points this year. I'm not going to pretend like I've been watching

these KHL games, I've been seeing some highlights here and there and been reading the report certainly in terms of what my colleagues at Edley prospects are talking about. But you just, you don't have to be some sort of advanced scout to know that, you know, the fact that he's already trending towards having like the most productive 19 year old season for a KHL or probably bodes well for his ability to score in NHL at some point in the future, right? Like he's past guys like Teresanko and Bernarren. Now he's going to smash past Bchnavich, Kuznetsov, Kapprizov, guys, we have had success in this League. So that is certainly very exciting. I'm just kind of curious for your take in terms of how all

of this comes together now in terms of setting this stage and creating this environment for him to come over everything that entails. And I know that you spoke with Danny Breuerre recently as well, sort of about this idea of this need for, which is acknowledged by both him and everyone in this organization seemingly publicly, that they probably don't have enough high end pieces right now in terms of scorers on this team and that they need to find a way to get them. And Mitchgov is certainly a great start. You can add Cutter-Goche there as well, but there's still going to be a need for more of that if you're going to take that next step from like plucky, playoff contender to

legitimate threat that's annually competing for a Stanley Cup. So Mitchkov is the start. How do we sort of get there? How do we bridge that gap and sort of what are those next steps in terms of their plan, I guess, organizationally for accomplishing that? It's a fascinating question. probably the biggest blind spot in the organization because I don't think there is a set plan beyond hope that Mitch Koff is the superstar that it appears he's going to be.

And I guess we'll see how that plays out, but I'm fairly confident that he's going to be very, very good. And then Carter Gautier, fifth overall pick, you know, he's looking like he's at the very least going to be a good NHLer. I think he could be a really good NHL score. it's, I think, reasonable to wonder if he's actually going to be an NHL center or if he ultimately will slot over at wing at the NHL level. He might ultimately end up being a Jeff Carter type where he can play center. He plays center sometimes.

And then other times he plays wing because everyone knows that, you know, he's a 40-goal talent that, and I'm talking about prime age, Jeff Carter. I'm not talking about Pittsburgh Penguins era, Jeff Carter. But I'm talking about the guy who was a key contributor on a king scene that won multiple cops. If he could be someone like that, that's great. But Jeff Carter was also not asked to be the number one center on those teams. He wasn't always even asked to be a center. You know, that was Anzay Kopitars role. So I think it's fair to say the Flyers are going to need to unearth more high-end players.

I do think they maybe need fewer than we originally thought because I'm working on a piece on Chongoturier. And Chongoturier basically looks like the same guy. he was before the back surgeries. He looks fantastic. And I always use Sean Gertory as a stealth elite guy. Now, granted, he just turned 31. He'll be 34, presumably by the time Mitchcoff gets over here. So that drop off may happen by then. Doesn't appear to be happening now. But I think there's a good chance, Sean Gertory will still be a very good player by the time Mitch Gop is here. And then you look at a guy like Travis Kinecti. And Kine also is looking like he can be a high-end guy. That said, there are holes in this. You know, Mitch Kov is a way.

winger. Sean Gatorre, I don't think, is anyone's idea of an ideal first line center on a cup contender, especially when he's 33, 34. They're going to need probably one more really good playmaking center. They definitely need at least one more high-end defenseman. I really like Travis Sannheim. I do not think Travis Sannheim is ideally your number one defenseman if you're trying to compete for Stanley Cups, even if this version of Travis Sannheim is real. They drafted Oliver Bonk in the first round. I think Oliver Bonk is a quality prospect. I do not think Oliver Bonk is a future Victor Headman or a future Kel McCar.

I think he is a quality guy who, you know, maybe he's a number two, number three type of guy if he hits, if he pans out the way the flyers are hoping he pans out. They're still going to need more guys. Now, the one thing that, and we talked about this on our podcast, last week after I did the interview were this week. I think it was this week. All the weeks are blending together. Exactly.

I was on the road for nine straight days. They all blend together. But just that when I asked Breyer that question, the follow up to, okay, you say you need high-end talent, how are you going to get the high-end talent if you guys are too good because of all the good things that are happening with this team to draft in the top five, to draft in the top 10? Right now they look like they're too good this year to have a shot.

at a Macklin Selbrini or have a shot at the true top end defenseman in this class that will probably be gone by pick seven or eight. And he kind of evaded the question. He's like, well, we already got a couple. Great, but you probably need more. I think the true answer here, if they're going to make this work, is they're going to have to make really good traits or they're going to have to convince someone in free agency who becomes a free agent that he should come to Philadelphia and, you know, provide that last bit of veteran high-end talent skill because unless they get lucky in the draft, and I guess that's possible, you know, you see teams get lucky all the time.

You know, you could talk about how Tampa Bay, you know, yeah, they had Victor Headman and they had Steven Samcoast, but they also had Braden Point who's taken around three. They also had Nikita Kuthorov, who was taken around two. You know, you do need to get some luck in the draft, and maybe that's part of what they're banking on is that some of these. second third, fourth round picks are going to, you know, hit for them and become the kind of guys that can be top of the line of players. But I think it has to go beyond that. Your plan cannot be

just hope we luck out on a third round pick because we're due. We haven't done that in a while. We should get one one year. That's not the way it works. You obviously hope, but it's not the way it works. I think if this is going to work around Mitch Koff and Gautier and then guys like Aeturie and Connect Me is they're going to need. need to make some really shrewd player acquisition moves over the next three, four years. And I guess the one positive about the way that they're doing this in terms of, you know, playing better than I think a lot of us thought in terms of youngish guys, you know, like Owen Tippett, like Joel Farabee, like Bobby Brink, like Tyson Forrester,

who might not be future stars, but are developing in a positive culture. Having those guys develop well and having those guys establish themselves at, you know, age 23, 24, 25 as very good players, it does give you the theoretical ammunition to go out in the trade market in two, three years and maybe make a move the next time a Jack Eichael caliber player hits the market. The thing is, is that you still have to pull that off. And that's where the job of Danny Breer will get very difficult because you have to nail those trades. know, there's, it's not like, you know, when a star player is available, it's not like there's only one team that's trying to get them. There's a bunch of teams. And you have to successfully execute on a big trade to get those guys. And you have to get the right guy. You know, Eric Carlson was available. I'm not talking about this version, but I'm talking about the one that the sharks got.

And then they ended up having a basically give him away. So not only do you have to go for the high end guys when they're available, you have to get the right high end guys because you don't want to get a guy who ends up torpedoing your entire cap situation. So it's going to be tough for Breyer. But I think if the flyers are going to make this work without tanking, without getting another two, three years more of top five, top 10 picks, they're going to need to do it by getting those guys via trades or getting one of those guys maybe via big free agent contract. Otherwise, I don't think they're going to have enough talent to make this work in terms of

being a cup contender. Yeah. I mean, it's been a strange, and I'm sure you're dealing with us in a data. day basis with everyone you're interacting with and all the comments and everything. But it's a strange situation brewing, right? Where on the one hand, I think a certain segment of people won either expected or wanted the team to go full scorched earth at this like this season, right? Which was like, we already saw them move out guys who aren't part of the future or who

they just wanted to get rid of so they could create space to change this team and better evaluate players this past summer. and they showed a willingness to do so in a way where they're eating money and acknowledging like, all right, listen, we're just going to bite the bullet here. We're going to either retain money on this or whatever, but we just want to move off of it and we're going to get some picks or some capital back in return and kind of play the long game here. And so a rebuilding team that's really willing to fully commit to it that way and also is willing

to spend money to do so, right, whether it's buying assets or eating bad, other teams bad money or stuff like that, all of a sudden creates this really interesting proposition for building for the future and accumulating those assets. But then you get this team that's playing not only a successful brand of hockey in terms of the record we've cited, but also doing so in an objectively fun way where it's really tough to even quibble with it in terms of the process in terms of the entertainment value in terms of how they're doing it. And so you're kind of like being torn between these two sort of extremes, right?

And it's only 30 games. I think there's still room for not necessarily the bottom to completely fall out here, but whether it's injuries, whether it's like the demands of playing this way and playing under John Chororale, I can certainly be taxing. That could certainly lead to attrition. There's many different routes that could go the rest of this year where they still wind up being a lottery team and wind up not getting a top five pick, but maybe kind of closer to that top 10 range.

So that still is in play and you don't want to close the door for that. but it certainly seems like that it's moving into a different phase sort of. And I get the reservation or concern about sort of putting the cart before the horse a little bit in terms of potentially limiting your long term upside just because of these early returns, right? Not that the organization is doing so, but just like once you start playing this way, it's really tough to kind of take that step back now and find a way to get those top five, top 10 picks once you're already in this sort of competitive range.

and it can limit your ceiling moving forward. So it's a pretty tricky spot. Not that it's bad that their winning games are playing well, but it certainly I guess kind of muddies the waters a little bit for the rest of the season. Yeah, and I think the flip side of that, and this is the argument that the Flyers' brain trust very much believes.

Danny Breyer articulated it to me during our interview series that I did with him over the weekend, is they very much believe that the reason why they are not in favor of tank and they are not in favor of going full score shirt. And to be, to be fair, Breyer made that very clear from the start, you know, literally from the day he was named interim GM. He said, I am very much in favor of a rebuild, which is a word that the Flyers and Chuck Fletcher were never willing to say. He, Breyer basically was the first, him and then Dan Hilfordy, who's taken over the ownership role of the team over the last year. Breyer was basically said, I am,

I am in favor of Rebuild. I think it's the right move, but I do not think we need to tank. I am not in favor of a tank. And he reiterated that when I talked to him this weekend. He said, my concern with a tank is, I believe that if you tear it all down,

that it makes it very, very difficult to develop talent. And you get caught into a rut where you bring guys up into a negative atmosphere, into a negative environment. And then you don't get the best out of the young guys that you tank to get because the atmosphere environment is not conducive towards having them become the best version of themselves. And I don't necessarily think that's something you can test, but I do think there is

some merit to it in that, you know, if, like, for example, I do not think that Owen Tippett would be the quality player he is today if you popped him into, you know, a mess of a team. Like if you if instead of Owen Tippett getting traded to the Flyers in the Clodger Deal, he had gotten traded as a reclamation project through the San Jose Sharks, I think Owen Tippett would be just as underwhelming as he was in Florida. Like I think there are absolutely benefits to coming to a team with structure that is, you know, trying to win and can surround you with at least decent players to give you the opportunity to grow as a player.

And this goes back to what I was saying earlier where, you know, if you develop enough of those guys, maybe you can turn two of them into the high-end talent, the high-end piece that you need, and maybe that's the benefit of doing it this way. Obviously, the concern. And I do think this is where a lot of the fears on the part of Flyers fans come from when they talk about this and why so many of them are very much like, we need to get more top five picks. And this is maybe not Danny Breyer's fault, but it is the fault of the Flyers organization. Fans do not trust the people at the top. They do not trust the flyers as an entity to make shrewd trades and get those guys via another way. They watched, you know, Ron Hextall basically do nothing with all the assets and just hope

that all of his prospects turns into turn into superstars and only a couple of them turned into cap like lowercase S stars and none of them turned into superstars. And then Chuck Fletcher made a lot of trades that quite frankly didn't pan out. when he tried to make those sorts of deals, a lot of them were either disasters out of bad luck. I'm thinking the Ryan Ellis deal or disasters because they were just ill, you know, ill advised from the start thinking the Rass and Risk the line and trade.

I just think that there's a feeling of the only way we're going to be able to get those guys is by drafting them because we can't trust the flyers to go out and get them by any other way because they've been incompetent for so long that there's, no way they're ever going to make a deal where it's like trading Tyson Forrester and a first round pick for a superstar set. Those trades can happen. And maybe they're creating the environment where those trades are more possible because the assets they do have, the young quality assets they do have, are developing in a way that will make them even more attractive to other teams. It's just that fans don't trust that even if that's the case, that the guys at the top will take

full advantage of those assets and actually find another way that isn't drafting with the third overall pick to get guys of that quality. Yeah, and I think fans aren't wrong in thinking that. Like, clearly, we know that the most direct path to getting the types of players that we, that we keep talking about the flyers craving and eating is by picking in the top five and top 10 and not just once, but repeatedly and acknowledging that maybe not all of them are going to hit, but a couple will. And then those guys are going to build each other up and grow together.

and then all of a sudden you've got something special, right? And so it makes sense that that's what you want to accomplish. I guess on the one hand, like I can see how this could go south. I don't, I'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt that things will be different, though, because I don't think there's any signs to suggest that they aren't rebuilding still, even with this 16, 10, and 3 start, right? Because this isn't the type of thing where, okay, they went out in the summer and they added a bunch of guys to help them now and then John Torrella is playing them and playing other veterans over guys that you're

just clamoring to see more out, right? Like there's certainly little usage things that you could probably quote with, but for the most part, a lot of the players that you would like to see playing or that are ready to play in the NHL are getting an opportunity to do so and are doing well. And so that is a good thing ultimately, right? It still doesn't mean that you can't make other moves moving forward or potentially if you start losing more, maybe trade some of these guys. It doesn't preclude you from that, but it's not like they sort of, you know, took the easy path

or tried to get a shortcut to get this done. It happened much more organically, which makes it more surprising because I thought looking at this roster heading into the year, they're not going to tank, but I just think this team's going to be bad. And so they're going to wind up getting a top pick regardless. And then maybe that I'll make it more likely that they trade a Travis Kinnockney or a Scott Lawton or something or, you know, it incentivizes them to do so because they're losing a lot.

Now instead, they might be, I guess, a bit less likely to do so. at least this season, if they still keep playing this well. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all of a sudden, they're dramatically limiting their ceiling or trying to win now, quote, unquote, as opposed to rebuild, if that makes sense. Yeah, and I think we're going to see the dedication they really do have to this idea for rebuild when we get closer to the trade deadline. And maybe the answer will resolve itself.

Because if they go on an eight game losing streak, and then they're suddenly out of a playoff. but then yeah, they're going to sell everything that isn't nailed down. But if they are four points out of a playoff spot in the Metro, if they're right there, are they still going to sell a Sean Walker if a team offers them, you know, a conditional first round pick or something like that because he's a right-handed shot who's having a really good year with a relatively reasonable cap hit. That's going to be very interesting because a rebuilding team almost certainly would do that.

a rebuilding team would trade Nick Seeler because he's having a pretty good year and he's on an extremely cheap cap and surely there will be a contender that will want to add him to their rotation. Those are the kinds of guys that the decision that the Flyers and Daniel Breer makes on those guys coming into February and then into early March. I think it's going to show you a lot more of what they actually think about this team and what they actually think about this rebuild. I just think, like, did you talk about someone like Connect Me? Like, connect me someone where one thing that they've said a lot over the last year is that the players will dictate how long this reboot lasts. Connect me to me is somebody where he's young enough where if you think that this could get turned around pretty quick, I don't think it is a betrayal of the rebuild if they

potentially look to extend Travis Connected. And they say like, all right, like, let's try to work out like a six year deal. He's only 26. You know, this could work. Whereas if you look at somebody like Sean Walker and you say he's 29 years old, he's having the best year of his career, this is the perfect time to sell high on him. And if you don't, then it's a fair question to ask, you know, are you guys really committed to this? Or do you think that next year you guys can pivot back to contend it? That to me will be a real test of their commitment to this idea.

Well, I'm excited to see that. I wanted to talk about connecting you with you and Kachari, and we kind of touched them in passing, but we budgeted our time poorly here because there was so much to talk about. And so we'll just have to save it for a future edition of the PDOCast with you. And hopefully we can get you back on again soon. You are really busy, though, and you've got a lot of stuff that you're churning out yourself. So I'll let you quickly plug that to the listeners and let them know where they can find more Charlie O'Connor talking flyers content. Yeah.

So I did recently in September, moved to a new publication. It's called P-H-L-Y Sports. You can find it online at all-P-H-L-Y.com. Obviously, I used to be at the Athletic, moved on to this venture in mid-September, I believe, is when we launched. The bulk of the written content is free.

So check that out there. If you're a Flyers fan, we do have, I would say, about an article a week on my part, behind a paywall. It's for die-hard members only. Usually that's the most in-depth article I do per week, more analytical or using, you know, access than only I have. So definitely would love to have you join as a diehard as well.

And then also a key part of this, this PHLY is our daily podcast. So we do five podcasts a week. We have standalone shows, the great Kelly Hinkle, who we obviously worked with at Broad Street Hockey, joins us regularly. Some shows are standalone, where we'll do the most. on non-game days, and then we do a show pretty much for every post game. My co-hoes, Bill Nats, runs the show, and then I jump on for post-games, usually about a half an hour and after I get done interviewing John Todorell on the players. We just break everything down.

So I think the real focus here is to have comprehensive coverage of the flyers on a daily basis, both written video and audio. Definitely check out our YouTube channel as well. I was at practice today and filmed a post practice video right from the press room up in in Forhees, New Jersey. I do those pretty much every day after practice when something interesting happens at practice. So subscribe to our YouTube channel as well. You can find that there.

You know, subscribe to our podcast feed, P.HLY Flyers podcast. And check out my writing if you're interested at all pHLY.com. Awesome, man. Well, keep up the great work. It's been really fun following your coverage. a surprisingly fun start to the season for the Flyers. And as we mentioned, over the next couple weeks and months, it'll either get even more interesting because they're going to keep this up.

And then we're going to really have to revisit this or it's going to go south. And then they're going to embrace that what everyone wanted to see to begin with, which was this rebuilding component. And then that will provide us with a new set of talking points. So looking forward to having you back on us again soon. Keep up the great work. And thank you to you for coming on. And thank you to listeners for listening to us.

That's going to be it for another week of shows here in the PDF. We'll be back next week with plenty more. So enjoy your weekend. And until then, thank you for listening to the HockeyPedioCast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.