The Hockey PDOcast - Jake Guentzel’s Impact in Carolina, and Their Top Line’s Offensive Approach

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Darryl Belfry for a deep dive on how Jake Guentzel has fit in Carolina, the way their top line has played since he arrived, and why their collective offensive approach is such an encouraging development for the team's playoff outlook.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitry Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dmitri Filippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Daryl, Daryl, what's going on, man? Excited to be back. It's going to be fun. We're back after a week off. And a good plug for our last show, the last time you and I spoke, happened Tuesday night, last night,

watching Nathan McKinnon just run Buck Wild over the Minnesota Wild. So if you haven't checked out that, Patrick yet, I recommend it. My condolences to the Minnesota Wild Defensemen who were hearing the footsteps all night and fearing for their lives. But it was a good reminder of everything you and I spoke about last time we did this. So we've got two shows left here on the schedule, at least a regular season one at that. Next week, the season finale, we're going to get back together. I'm going to do a look at Alexi Lafranier's breakout the season. But that's next week.

This week we've got a new Belfrey banger, which I have to give a shout out to our, listeners and the PDO guest discord who coined that as the new working title for these shows, the Belfry Bangers. And we do this every week where we pick a player and we deep dive them. Now, we're going to do something a little different today because I want to talk about Jake Gensel certainly as kind of the centerpiece of this because he's the new player kind of being thrown into a mix in Carolina. But as a whole, I want to spotlight that line with him, Seth Jarvis and Sebastian Ajo and the way they've been playing since they got put together. And we've got about 12 or 13 games worth of a sample now.

They've been remarkably fun to watch, absolutely dominant. I think totally changed the upside and ceiling for Carolina this postseason. And so let's get into all that. You can start with Gensel, you can start with the line. You can talk about Carolina as a whole because they're a team I don't

generally speak too glowingly, offensively on the show, right? Because they kind of, a lot of their concepts run counter to some of the stuff you and I typically like to see from the way teams conduct their offensive approach. But this line in particular has been able to sort of break through that glass ceiling a little bit and sort of change things for Carolina. And that's why they're a fun subject for us here today.

Yeah, I think anytime you talk about a line and why they become successful offensively, I think that there are some commonalities to the process in that. And, you know, they obviously have to be good in transition. In order to do that, you've got to be able to get the puck. And so you have, you got to be able to get the puck, you got to be good in transition, you got to be able to get the puck off the wall and be able to get it into the interior. And then you have to be able to create multiple chances and sequences. You've got to spend time in the offensive zone.

And what I think when I watch this line in particular, what I like about it is they are incredibly good on the walls. And they're able to sustain offensive zone time. and not to mention, like I also think they're very good off the rush. One of my favorite parts about the way they play off the rush is all three of them are fearless in the net drive. They will go to the net. And so they have the makings of a really good line. And then you put them together and this is what you get.

Now, one other note on that is I'm not surprised that Gensel would come in and do really well with Aho. because I think Aalho is, plays similarly to the way Crosby plays in the sense of how competitive he is, how hard he works off the puck and his tremendous ability to make passes in small areas. And Gensel is a relocation expert. He slides into space and he understands puck support in the offensive zone, as you would, having to play with Sid. So to come over and play with a similar but not the same type of player, it doesn't surprise me that he just walked right in there

and has had virtually no, I don't think he's had any adjustment, really, he's come in there and lit the world on fire. And I don't think it's surprising because of those characteristics that he's familiar with. Yeah, since Gansel made his debut in Carolina, he leads a team with 22 points in 15 games just behind him, Marahoe with 19 and Jarvis with 13. Now, I went back and I put together a bunch of clips, which we're going to be to run through here on the YouTube channel while we have this conversation. But the three of them have combined for 26 goals.

I've got them down for 68 scoring chances in those 15 games between the three of them. And remarkably, it's actually been Gensel, who has been predominantly on the receiving end. He's got so many looks around the net. And they just haven't gone in. I think he's hit the post at least three or four times so far. So he's got the six goals out of those 22 points. I expect that the lid is going to come off for him soon. and he's going to pop off for a bunch of goals shortly.

But in the meantime, they've been just a scoring chance generating machine. And what's interesting, we're going to get into all of them individually, but I think just kind of as an overview of them working together, what I really like is there's such a, and this is a testament to how varied their skill sets are, that I think there's a level of interchangeability as well, right? You mentioned kind of that fearlessness off the rush in terms of any one of the three is comfortable taking the lead as the.

guy going towards a net, dragging a defender with him, creating traffic and looking for a tip there and then the rebound. But pretty much all three of them can kind of work in unison and occupy many different positions on the ice, right? This isn't a matter of like putting a shooter with a passer and then a puck retriever the way I think we use to think about a line construction. That can still certainly work, but I think in today's game, the demands are just so much wider. and you're seeing that with a line like this where all of these guys can simultaneously occupy any of the three sort of positions

in the grand scheme of either a rush sequence or a cycle opportunity for them. Yeah, I mean, in today's NHL, if you want to play as a top line and you want to be a player on the top line, you have to do all three of those things at a very high level. You might have a certain skill set

that stands above that. Like one thing with Gensel that kind of irritated me when he was in Pittsburgh was there was so much focus on his shot and he has a phenomenal release and he's quick and he has an extremely quick stick and he and his relocations

and the way he positions himself to be able to shoot and his fearlessness obviously all lends into that but this guy can pass a puck and he's very competitive and he makes a lot of plays off of walls and you know he's a very fast skater as well

can create that way so this whole idea of like like you said of having like specific roles for guys in a in a top line situation i think those days are done i think now if you want to be a top player you have to do all of it and not only that but then you have to contribute to getting the puck back which is what all three of those guys do they dog the puck i mean i don't think you can play in carolina unless you are relentless in your pursuit of the puck in the way in which you defend. But the way these guys can then turn that into offense, I think, has been really fun to watch. Well, to give the listener as just a sense of how good they've been together,

they put them together in that game in Toronto, about, I think it was a third game, Ken, so it was on the team. So 12 and a half games together now, 155, 5-15 minutes. Shots are 102 to 57 for Carolina. High danger chances are 35 to 14, and goals are 11 to 2. and we're going to get into the details of why they're so legal together, but I first wanted to present that. And then the reason why I think this matters,

this isn't just a line that's sort of glowed up and is playing well together because we've seen Carolina have lines dominated 5-1-5, particularly in terms of shots and expected goals and all that. And then we come into the postseason, and they bump into the same issues every year, which is sometimes their offense can be very predictable and one-dimensional. It's very perimeter and volume-based. and when you play a team that can game plan for you specifically

and is seeing you every night for seven straight games, they can essentially kind of put a defensive force field around the slot area and they'll just let you tire yourself out with those perimeter shots and point shots. And that's what happened to them against Florida last year. That's what happened to them pretty much every time they've been eliminated the postseason the past couple years. And I do think this line gives them the best chance they've had during this entire run since they kind of turn the corner as a franchise of breaking through that, right?

Because these three guys, they move so well off the puck. They create so many legitimately great A chances. And they also get into the interior. And I think that's important. Like there's still certainly some volume here where you'll see them sometimes just get a shot on net because they're so good at retrieving and getting second and third opportunities off rebounds. And they all like to kind of stand around the net and sort of look for that tip play as well.

And that feeds into it. but I do see a lot more from them of like passing up a bad initial shot to maybe get the puck a bit lower in the zone and cycle it and look for an actual scoring chance in the slot. And I do think that's a departure from what we've seen here previously. I'm curious for your take because we never really talked about the hurricanes much, you and I, how much you think of that is a personnel thing and how much of that you think is sort of like a coaching mandate where Rod Brindamore just wants them to play a certain way and everyone has to fit in there because I'm sure like, just seeing this happen time and time again every year, at some point, you do have to change things up, yet they've been playing this way for so long now. Well, my take on Carolina is similar to yours. The best part about Carolina is also the worst part.

The best part is they have a clear identity as a team. You know exactly what you're playing against when you play against them. The bad news is you know exactly what you're playing against when you play against them. There's not a lot of deviation or variation. You know, you have, I was really excited when Naceus came up and started playing for them because I find he's a different type of player than what they have normally had there. But now you add Gensel to the mix and he is going to add a different dimension, which they need. So you can have an identity, but you have to be careful that not that you don't just, every line just plays the same. It's just not realistic.

And when you watch the top teams in the league, those teams, their top line does not really play like the others. And this is what now Carolina has. And I've been excited to talk about this line since you mentioned it because of that, because they have different skill sets. Gensel is different in the way in which he plays. And he will bring out more of the offensive and creative side of Aho, which Ajo, when you watch him, particularly in big games and you watch him in the playoffs, he gets ultra gritty, which is great.

We love gritty and, you know, he gets to the net area and he is very competitive. But you also need to have a little bit of that creativity to be able to make the interior passes because you're just not going to be able to be able to get there by just trying to do it through brute determination. you have to sometimes find alternative ways. And this Gensel has an ability and has played with a guy who is as he's the most competitive guy in Crosby. And now you have Ajo who is very similar in the way that he plays. And now, but Gensel found a way to really bring in a lot of the high end skill. And I felt like he pulled that out of Crosby a lot.

And now he's going to do it here with Ajo and Jarvis. I love Jarvis as well. I can't wait to get into him. But the point of the matter is, is that it gives them now a top line that's different than what they otherwise had. They do similar characteristics. They're going to play the D zone the same. They're going to probably forecheck similarly. They're going to have those similar system plays.

But when they actually play and they get in the offensive zone, their skill set can bubble up and give you different looks, create different scoring chances, create different opportunities, attack other areas of the ice that the other lines just aren't, which makes it them more difficult to defend. Where in years past, they would come at you with this like relentless grind, you know, like you say, take kind of bad shots, try to find their way to the net and see if they could do it. And it led to one and duns or they were in the offensive zone, but chasing the puck. This time they have a group that is getting the puck back and generating offense. They have a chance to be more patient.

I think Ajo has that beautiful blend of that poise on the puck where he can really make a really skilled play. And then if he loses it or the puck gets in a shot recovery, he's relentless in his ability to get it back. And I just love that about him. Gensel is very similar. and I think that they'll be able to pull that out and become a little bit more of a feature line that could create more problems. And then you come back with NACIS, who NACIS is a guy who when he plays wing is, I think, more effective because he plays the middle of the ice. And so he then gives you that winger that plays the middle of the ice. It kind of gives you a different look off the rush.

And so they might just be able to come at you with some different looks, which is, I think, to your point, at the beginning of the conversation is what's needed there to got to get them over the top. Well, there's one fundamental change I've noticed, and I really do think this is going to be consequential as we get into the postseason, is at the time they acquired Gensel, they were 27th in the league in rush chances. I believe they were averaging about 5.5.4 per game as a team. Now, in the 15 games since, they're first in the league at 8.1 rush chances per game. And I think part of that that you're seeing is they've started incorporating whether it's by design or whether it just because they have the personnel now and the horses to play that way with these three.

More sort of those elite concepts that we talk about with a team like Colorado where when they took that next step, they started incorporating those quick neutral zone regroups and that reentry game so much more into their offensive approach. And this isn't something Carolina has typically done because they cycle the puck a lot. but then once it gets into a neutral zone, they're very happy to just essentially dump the puck back in and sort of get back to work that way. Instead, I think we've seen them now sort of make a more concerted effort to actually follow up those cycles

with another rush opportunity their own. And that's becoming really lethal because we know how good they are cycling the puck as a team. And so I wanted to talk about this with you because I've spoken to some players recently about this. And there's this big conversation of, you know, Carolina is one of the few teams is it plays such a strict man-to-man defensive scheme now.

Most teams have kind of shifted more to a zone or a hybrid approach, right? And a lot of the attention comes down to, all right, it's certainly physically taxing, I think, for a team to play that way because you're just having to chase more. You're obviously having to pursue the puck. We know how Rod Brindamor prioritizes all of that sort of pressure that they incorporate and why they have such good defensive results. But I think an under-talked-about part of it is the mental component,

of it where by playing that way, it's so difficult to transition from defense to offense because you're so kind of one track minded and tunnel vision for just pursuing whoever has the puck and kind of trying to get it back, that once you get it, you're not in a position to immediately then flip the switch and transition the other way. And now we're seeing them kind of change that a lot more. And I think that's huge for this team. If they're actually going to start attacking off the rush this way, that's just something they haven't really done. We think about them as being this sort of fast-paced, frenetic, high-activity team, but it doesn't actually lead to rush chances.

And now it does. And so I think that's like a big difference that we can point to since Gansel got here. Yeah, I mean, their offense to this point has been playing without the puck. Like they get it in the defensive zone and they're chipping it out and they're trying to force you into some bad plays. And then they get it in the neutral zone. And now they get it and they're trying to, like they play so much more of a puck management team. That's basically what they're doing.

And that becomes taxing because you're basically chasing the puck a lot. Now, you win it back and you do some things. That's the, it's fine. But it's so much easier to play once you have the puck from a physical perspective. And then when you talk about a seven game series and all you're doing is, you know, you're chasing the puck, you're putting pressure on the puck, but you don't really have it. Now you're doing that in all three zones. it becomes like much more difficult when you're playing that pace and then you got to do it every other night in the in the playoffs and the defensive zone is not so much like there's two problems with the with the defensive zone two not problems but their challenges if i know that you're going to play man on man then i'm going to activate people all over the sheet because i'm going to be able to pull people into poor transition positions so i'm going to take your strong

side defensive forward and I'm going to pull him into the corner. And I'm going to take your, you know what I mean? I'm going to take this other guy and I'm going to move him over there. Well, now you're trying to break out. As soon as you win the puck, you're trying to break out. Well, you have people in awkward spots. When you play a little bit more of that like zone on top, what happens is that now you have people in predictable transition positions.

And so you can be man on man low, but then when you get in the high, And when people get into the high ice, they can start pulling you apart. And pulling your transition game apart, which is going to affect your rush. So you have people that are uncomfortable and not coming from the right area. You don't have the same consistency. So now you play this, like in their case, they play a lot of basically like puck management. They advance the puck into good areas that they can't get hurt with, but they're not really advancing the puck to a great offensive position.

And with this Gensel line and Aho, it forces them because they want to play with the puck. They have skills to make plays off the rush. And like I said, it drags Aho into this skilled part of his game, which I want to see more of when the game's on the line. Like he obviously is a skilled player. He makes a lot of plays. And it's not to say that he doesn't. It's just to say when you get into the high pressure moments, he tends to play a lot like a check. and you just can't have your top player having only that mindset.

You want him to be toggling back and forth of relentless dogging of the puck to get it back, but then once we got it, we're making plays, we're going to threaten, we're going to build speed, we're going to create numbers, we're going to generate in that way. And I think that that's what the opportunity is for Carolina in this way. And it's interesting because their rush approach up until this point has been a lot of just trying to manage the puck, put it in awkward areas, forecheck it, win a battle, and then off they go. And this possession, a little bit more possession will make them much harder to play against and will reduce the amount of time they're actually defending in all three zones, which then obviously has a major effect on their ability to sustain. that over a longer periods of time in the playoff series. Well, and what you're seeing is they are just seeking, like I mentioned how they're sort

of passing up bad shots. Sometimes the otherwise might have taken just to get the puck on it and start the cycle into extending the sequence by getting it lower in the zone and then trying to decisively actually create a passing play that's going to lead to a high danger chance. And in particular, that interior passing kind of laterally is something we've seen. And it's beautiful to watch because Gensel has essentially brought over a lot of the principles that him and Crosby used to utilize to such perfection in the two-man game. And he's carried that over to Aho. And hearing you talk about sort of how in the postseason he's had to sort of simplify or oversimplify his game, I think part of that has been just a requirement because he hasn't really had the players to play a more sort of higher wavelength, high-skilled game.

right you're with gensel you're seeing he's so good at not only connecting plays but in particular getting open in coverage and then that gives aho an outlet all of a sudden to pass the puck and then once he does so he moves into open space and gensel's such an underrated passer that he can get it back to him and now all of a sudden you're encouraging and enabling a lot of these higher level concepts that they just didn't really have access to before i think you're seeing that and jarvis certainly fits into this as well and you're just seeing the three of them kind of play off of each other in that way and sort of isolate defenders and get into like low three on twos and two on ones and then pass the puck into space. And these are things that the hurricanes have never really

done. Like they, they almost viewed at times their best pass as a shot, right? Because they're like, all right, my best way to get closer to the net is to shoot it from distance and bank on the goalie not being able to freeze the puck. And we're just going to kind of through brute force, work our way closer geographically to the net. Now all of a sudden, you're actually seeing them past the puck around to get closer and closer. And I think that's a big distinction from the way they used to play. Yeah, I mean, like the other thing too is like you have players like they're on the back end like Burns is a high volume shooter. He's like he prefers the puck low to high and then release it to the net. He was doing that for a decade in in San Jose to a high level of success. And then

now he's come over and in the work that he's done in Carolina has been very similar. He's a high volume shooter. It gets a puck to the net. But now, what you're starting to see is like these players are jumping in the rush when they're playing when they're playing with with this line you see them in the rush you see four guys coming up because they know that there's plays going to be made the other thing that's very interesting with this line in terms of their rush ability is one of the hallmarks I think of a great rush team is their ability to get depth in the zone quickly so on entry how quickly can you get below the top of the circles and the teams and the lines that find themselves have that ability

to gain that depth quickly they are going to be able to create a lot more because they're going to be able to create that space underneath that's one of the things i think that ahio has been dragged into through gensel has been that gensel gets depth and gensel can pull up and make plays he has an excellent delay game ah ho also has a very good delay game as well but they are able to kind of work off of each other, utilize their willingness to go to the net, to get that depth of the zone, and then start making plays into that underneath area.

And once you start opening up the underneath area, all of a sudden now, these defensemen will slide into these spaces and be able to make good decisions. And that's what we're seeing. And there's a lot of goals in your edit that are coming off the rush with a lot of players in the rush.

Four people are in the rush. They're well spaced. There's good options. And defensemen are contributing. And you're getting that, one, through the depth, two, through the willingness to make plays. And then that drags also the defensemen who wouldn't have necessarily done that.

Had we just been, you know, get it in, get it there, to get it past the red line, then like chip, chase. Like there's no reason for a defenseman to get over. overly involved. But when you start going rush after rush after rush of possession entries with depth opening up this space, like I said, you're starting to drag other people who wouldn't necessarily do that. All of a sudden, you're pulling them into those spaces. And that's what I mean. Like, even if you didn't have that with any of the other lines, just having that with this line creates a whole

different dynamic that is harder to defend when you reach in the playoffs rather than, hey, these guys are just going to get it in behind you and go to work. It's a whole different type of mindset then three lines are going to do that, but this other line is just not going to do that. They're going to make these other plays. And I'm excited to see as they get into the playoffs how they're able to do that. But I think the biggest effect of Gensel has been his ability to drag other people into the skill.

one of the things that you touched on that I think is a major aspect of this, Gensel's play off the puck is, is one of the best in the league. Like he is outstanding in his ability to, he slides into space with timing. He does a great job off the rush. He understands when to stretch. He understands where to go.

He just has an outstanding support mentality. And he moves so well off the puck. and he can pass and make plays and finish. It just drags other people into trying to do that as well. So this is what happens. He starts moving into these spaces. They find them there. The play isn't there.

He moves out of that space. All of a sudden, someone else is relocating it. You're dragging people into that. When you're not as good off the puck, you don't have others who need to be good off the puck because we're just going to get it into a reasonable area and shoot it. So you're going to the net. You're not relocating into other areas, which is what we see with this line.

There's three guys now, and then we see the other, the D are starting to get, like I said, involved. But everyone starts to play off the puck better because you have this one guy in Gensel, who is, in my mind, he's world class off the puck. And he starts dragging other people into it. And to watch Ajo start to come to life and really show this aspect. of his game, to me is one of the best reasons to watch this Carolina team is to watch the real difference in Ajo and how good he has been off the puck. Yeah, it's a mentality. You know who's loving this, Demetri Orlov, who I've noticed is like every

single opportunity he gets to scream down the weak side. He's getting involved there. And that's opening up a lot for them as well and taking advantage of a lot of this passing. And hearing you talk about Gensel, I completely agree in terms of the off the puck stuff and his ability to just consistently get open. But in particular, I think what we should distinguish is, I think it's just work in that kind of intermediate game in the offensive zone around the hash marks, right? Because Carolina has been so distinct in terms of everything comes from the point.

And then they are always amongst the league leaders in like rebound opportunities, right? Because of all of that volume of point shots. And so that's why they get inflated by a lot of these expected goals models because geographically on the ice, it looks like the scoring chance is coming from a very high danger area. But in reality, it's like right up against the goalies pads

and they're essentially just jamming a low percentage shot in there that's not really going to score. What Gensel's providing them as an outlet in that soft spot in the middle of the zone where on the power player, seeing it as the man in the middle, right? He can come open for that one timer, but also then to distribute it back to Ajo or Jarvis around the net.

But then even during 5-1-5, he's just occupying an area of the ice that they never really had a presence in before. And now all of a sudden, that's going to force the opposing D. We talk about that predictability. All of a sudden, now they have to account for that. They can't just sort of lean one way or sort of protect the house because they know where all the shots are coming from.

And that's going to open up so much more for Ajo and Jarvis and the defensemen are coming down on the weak side. And they're all kind of coalesces that comes together. But I think just having someone like Gensel there who's so comfortable in traffic, still feeling like he can get open at all times is just something they have. really, I feel like, had a presence for in the past couple years. Yeah, no, it's exactly it. They are either shooting from 55, 60 feet, or they're shooting from, you know, the goal line

to 10 feet. And they just haven't had that space. And one thing that Gensel also does is he slides off to his off-wing side. So I consider him like a sliding guy. Like he gets into that slot area, the high slot area. And you see him slide into these spaces. One, he's preserving the shot space that he wants because he is a shooter. That is one of his best traits.

And so he's always looking to preserve the shot space. He doesn't need a lot of space to get rid of the puck because his hands are so quick. But he is conscious of that. So you'll see his footwork. He just kind of slides into these spaces. And there's a lot of subtlety to what he does. but then you'll see him fall off the back side and he'll play off in the off wing side

because he loves that one timer there as well. He's got a great shooter off the pass. And so what and then when he starts moving and sliding into these spaces, he's encouraging movement elsewhere. So it's one thing to have a guy just stand like in the high slot. It's another thing to have this guy working the high slot, which is what he does.

He's working. He's not standing there. He's looking for work. He's creating angles. He's creating space. He's preserving the space. He's sliding, moving ever so subtly and creating options and availability. And then like I said, he'll slide off.

And the value of that is he encourages rotation. And because all three of these guys are really good in puck recovery, he'll be there. They'll generate a shot chance. And then all of a sudden, Gensel sprinting to the corner to win a puck battle. well now you're seeing Jarvis or you're seeing Ahio slide up into these spaces as well. Like I said, this type of player tends to drag you into it, whether you want to or not, just because he's so good at it. And he forces and creates these rotations that you wouldn't normally have seen.

I want to shout out, Seth Jarvis here, because I feel like, you know, we've talked a lot about Gensel, certainly. That's been the premise of this in Ajo. I love what I've seen from him. I've been so blown away by what I've been seeing from Seth Jarvis lately. Not that it's necessarily coming out of nowhere because he's a player who I've really liked ever since he entered the league. But just seeing the way he's flourishing now where you can sort of bring back a lot of the concepts. I think you and I spoke about when we did the Logan Stancoven thing in terms of like an undersized player who's winning battles and who's very like strategically competing. but the technique he's displaying in a lot of these board battles is very impressive to me, right?

And it's not just a matter of him outworking bigger players, although there certainly is some credence to that, but it's a technique in particular where his seals and his abilities to sort of move around and navigate in tight to extend possession and then get open is helping catalyze a lot of this as well, right? Because we speak so much about their ability to retrieve pucks and their ability to cycle it, well, you need a player like that who can not only get the puck off the wall, but actually continuously just win these battles against bigger defenders. And so he's been doing that time and time again. Every time he goes into the corner there against the bigger guy,

I fully expect for him to come out of there with an advantageous situation. And Carolina, all of a sudden, being able to create a scorning chance out of it. And that's really cool to see. Yeah, I think you bring up a great point. Like one of the things that's fascinating with all this type of discussion is that The distinction used to be that the top players didn't have to work so hard on the walls or win these board battles or play with a lot of grit. The expectation was that just make a lot of skilled plays. And today's NHL, like I said before, you have to be able to win pucks back because it's very difficult to get it back if you don't.

And so the difference, though, between like that first line player and players lower in your lineup is they have the ability to, to win the puck to then be able to create separation and then use that separation to be able to make that next most dangerous play, the interior passes or take a step or two and then all of a sudden find somebody on the backside or they can personally threaten the net. So it's what they're doing after they win the puck that becomes why they're able to justify their position as one of those top players. but it's not that it's not that that responsibility is unique to this group. Every top line has guys, you have to be able to get these pucks.

You have to win it. Jarvis has been really good because he, not only does he understand that, but I love how quick he is in his ability to get off the wall and make that next play. He doesn't overhandle it. And he doesn't, his puck battles don't lead to other pack battles. which is characteristic of players lower in the lineup. They win a lot of battles, but then they just take you into another battle.

And it goes battle to battle to battle. And those are like minute-munching type minutes. You're not really doing much. You're just minute-munching the situation and dragging the other team from a physical perspective. The difference with Jarvis and what I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of what's really most impressive about him and what justifies his position in terms of being able to be

and a really strong contributing factor on this line is that he makes plays off those walls. Not only is he win the puck, but he makes the play to get it off the wall. And then he has all these other skills. Like the kid can really shoot the puck. Like he is full value of a guy who can really develop into a front line player. And I think that's what we've seen this year.

and this addition of Gensel who is going to drag even more of that out of him. Because, I mean, you take a guy like this Jarvis, who's now working the walls the way that he has and he's learning skills and he can make these plays. And now you combine him, you put him on the ice with a guy like Gensel who's sliding into these like spaces that he hasn't had players move into those spaces before. That's what's going to intrigue him even more, not only to win battles, but when he is in that position, he will start to make. mimic those behaviors as well because obviously Gensel will be able to recognize it himself in those movements. So what I love about this line is each guy has an ability to do all the things that are necessary to be successful.

But winning the board battles, you have to be able to make those next plays because if you can't, it's hard to justify your position there. Well, and does anything better demonstrate like the modern game and the beauty of it and how much things have evolved in NHL than players like this. And it's not just the board battles, it's how much of his damage he does in tight around the net too. I was at the Canucks Golden Knights game the other night. And like Connor Garland is just giving these monstrous Golden Knights defenders fits around the net and behind the net and along the wall. Because he's just constantly moving. He's getting low, spinning around, trying to make a play off the wall,

coming around the net, jamming away at the puck. And for like a bigger guy, all of a sudden, just trying to keep tabs on him, trying to figure out what he's going to do, where he's going to go and kind of keep up with that pace, seems like such a daunting task, whereas before there was like just much more physicality, just stand there, just basically cross-check the other guy in the kidneys and move on with your day. And in this sense, like, it's just so much more demanding for defenders and the responsibilities for them have changed so much. But you're seeing that with Stankov in Dallas and Wyatt Johnson or with Jarvis here where he's just become so lethal in not only winning these battles,

but creating in these areas that we used to think you had to look a certain way to be competitive, and that just no longer the case. Well, you used to have to stand there, and you have to go there and stand there, and it wasn't a rotation that was going to be the play. You were going to go there and stand there, and everyone else was doing their role in the line, right?

And that's just not what goes on now. So all three, you'll watch an offensive zone, sequence with Carolina with this line and you will see all three of those players land at the net in a given shift sequence in the offensive zone. That's the difference and that's what gives them fits. And then they're quick. They understand body position. They understand leverage.

They can trap your stick. They can put you in a bad spot. They can create shot lanes. They are extremely good once the puck is in like a rebound situation. They got quick sticks. They can elevate the puck. There are all kinds of different skills that they have, but they don't have to stand there. You don't want Seth Jarvis standing there and just eating cross checks and getting punished.

He goes there. He's there for a second. He sees what's going on. He creates good body position. And then poof, he's gone. And then he leaves out one side, let's say the right side. And next thing, you know, Ajo is landing on the net from the left side. So you were on this side.

Now the next threat's over here. And then that guy's there for a second. and then boom, he's gone. He might pop out to the top, pop out towards the top of the circle. Now you're like, okay, should I go out there with him or should I stay here? And then there's all these decisions that are going on and guys are coming and going, which makes it a lot easier for these guys to operate in that area. And then we're seeing that they can do so much damage because their puck skills are so good.

Their sense of timing is excellent. And they don't have to absorb the normal level of punishment that we would expect from players who have to spend who make their living there. And I think that that's a really cool part of what the modern, like what we're doing with the NHL right now is that you're seeing those types of players with that skill set have an ability to hang out at the net. And I think it's awesome. And then not to not even talk about how well they pop out into these little spaces to

be able to shoot, which is what we've been talking about with Gensel. Yeah. You can really see just the benefit of kind of that concept of kinetic energy, right? And just like that constant movement and then how that can drag players into the fight because now all of a sudden now they're moving, they're more likely to be open. They get the puck more. I mean, the number of puck touches is increasing so much here as well for all these guys. And I think that's when we talk about Ajo and this idea of like simplifying his game

versus unlocking all of that creativity in the postseason. Just the realization that he's going to get the puck back. so much more often in high danger areas, as long as he keeps moving and he keeps extending these plays for a skilled player like him, that must be such an incentive as well. It's kind of like this carrot

that's dangling in front of you. So that's what makes player evaluation so tricky for us sometimes, right? Because players can have this in them, but unless they're surrounded either by the right environment or the right sort of complementary skillsets around them, it might sort of lay dormant for a while there

and then we just might never get to see it properly flourish in daylight. And I think you're kind of seeing that here where just all of a sudden, like, it's sparking so much more creativity and movement from these guys that obviously had it to begin with, but it wasn't necessarily either being asked weren't feeling like it was the right spot for it. So they just weren't doing it themselves. Yeah, that's exactly it.

I mean, I've said it many times, even on this program, the NHL is largely situation. and getting the right fit playing with the right players and the right situation is really important. And if you aren't in the right situation, it can be precluding in terms of taking a skill that you have and not being able to utilize it fully or even to the best of your ability. And there's a lot of players that kind of get caught into that. And then that's just talking about them when they're in the NHL. But imagine when they're not in the NHL, the level of projection and feeling that someone gets when they're watching a player of just trying to see some characteristics and say, yeah, I think this player could fit with us or I think this is a great player who would fit with the way we want to play, but not having been able to see that in the environment that they're in. To your point, that's what makes scouting so incredibly difficult.

and I'm thankful every day that I don't have to do it. Do you have any other notes, Daryl, on any of these three guys? I feel like I've tried to give them all their shine here. There's obviously a lot of overlap between them, but I do think you're seeing some individual standout skills from there as well. Is there anything that you feel like we haven't gotten to that we should? The one thing I had that I just think is a point. We did mention it, so it's not nothing new,

but that willingness to drive the net is so. intriguing. It's a, it's somewhat of a lost art in the NHL. Like, you don't see, uh, the net drive quite the same way. But these guys are a bit old school. Like, they'll take the corner on you and, and go to the net where net drive largely when you see net drive, it's usually like a middle net drive. The guy's coming from the middle. He splits the 2D. He tries to get on the heels of someone. You don't see it as often with a guy like driving the outside. But in the early games that we've seen are the first several games that we've seen here with this with this line. You see all of them have that ability to come on the corner and take that and take the corner on a

D which is a fascinating dynamic to have because you know, you need you need the right pass. You got to have the speed and then all of a sudden you're able to take the corner. But the sheer number of times they've been able to do it is something to watch for because If they're able to do that more, we talked about getting the depth into the zone, but that threat of getting in behind you and being able to take the puck to the net is a real threat. And to have, like, to me, you don't see Aho as much. Aho does it more in the offensive zone, but certainly Gensel and more so, Jarvis has been taking the corner on defensemen in somewhat regular basis since this line was formed. and I think that that's a really good feature to have on a line that, like I said, is a little bit different.

You don't see that quite as much anymore. It's a bit of a lost art. Well, he was punishing the Bruins with it last night in particular. And I think it's even more of a weapon when you're incorporating what we just talked about with how much more their work in the re-entry and the regroup as well, right? Because either the other teams trying to get guys off the ice and all of a sudden there's miscommunications, they've got fewer players out there. or the guys have stayed out there, and all of a sudden now they're tired, they're a bit slower than they might have otherwise been. And so you're just taking it directly at them and really not letting them off the hook.

And so that's awesome to see that they're doing that so much more. Yeah, I just really, I think the efficiency has improved so much. I really like what I see from the approach. This is a team that I've been sort of skeptical of or had concerns about in the playoffs because of these offensive limitations. And I think they're still going to have to prove it certainly, especially against the top defensive team. But I just think there's so much better suited or,

position to kind of problem solve in that way now through a lot of these things we've highlighted here today not to mention the fact that they have a top five power play now as well and you've seen gensel fit into that by working that man in the middle and giving them more passing options there and one-time threat there's so much to like here between these guys and the way they're playing off of each other and so yeah if you haven't had a chance to watch the three of them yet i highly recommend uh going out of your way to do so we're going to get to see a lot of them here in the postseason and that should be fun. All right, any parting thoughts here, either on these guys or stuff you want to plug on the way out?

No, we're all good. I mean, we're plugging away. We're looking forward to our June event here in Florida for coaches and skill coaches. And we're really feverishly preparing for that. And yeah, just looking forward to this postseason. I think that, you know, I think this regular season, even though that East is still undecided. And we're going to see really, you know, some fantastic, like a fantastic finish there. It was going to be exciting.

But I'm anxious to turn the page and see some of these teams in the playoffs now. Yeah, how does the preparation for that change in your opinion, especially because I was noting about how for Carolina, I think it's a bit different when, especially with the activity they've played with in the past, in the regular season you're catching teams, three and four,

three games in four days, back to back. They play so differently than a lot of other teams in the league that you just can't really prepare for it. You don't have the time to do so over the rigors of a regular season. So they catch teams off guard and they benefit from that. Whereas in the postseason, there's so much more game planning, I guess, or like specifically oriented stuff to, all right, this is what they're going to do. This is how we prepare for it. We're ready for it and we're better suited to sort of compete

against it. Coming for the postseason, from your perspective, like just like how for skilled players in particular, that sort of X's and O's or that cat and mouse game between top forward, and opposing defense is kind of how you break through that. I imagine that must be such a fascinating part of the schedule. It is a fascinating part because a lot of times you're playing against the same people now for seven games, up to seven games. And so you have to find a way to beat that. And so the question now is, is my game, my individual game or our collective lines game,

is it is the way we play good enough to play against these guys where they have to adjust to us? or is it a situation where we have concerns and there's some things that we should be concerned about what they do. And I think that's what largely is the cat and mouse thing. What I love about the NHL playoffs is at the end of the day, you've got to beat the guy on the other side. Like that guy that's on the other side, you have to find a way to make him minus.

And I think that that's really fascinating. and win your matchup and find a way to win that matchup. And sometimes I feel like the teams that do the best, they change the least because they just know that they're so confident, like this is who we are. We know it's good enough to beat you. And then you are the one that has to adjust to us. I always find that fascinating to see who's adjusting. And then you see it with the coaching of like. Like the coach is concerned about playing certain lines against certain lines.

That also is a concession. And I always think like at the playoff time, you got to be able to say to your best people, we're going to play you against their best guy. And we trust that you can beat that guy. And I feel like that's the most powerful position to come from, but not everybody's in that spot. No, certainly.

It's going to be a lot of fun. Hopefully you and I, like I said, off the top we've got one more regular season to show here we're going to do alexia lafranier next week and that should be a really fun one once we get into the post season maybe we won't do these every week but hopefully we're going to get some some interesting kind of trends or i guess head to heads that we might be able to kind of highlight and have some fun with that so we'll see still on the scheduling and that but i'm looking forward to it darrell this was a blast as always we'll see you again next week thank you to the listeners for listening to us if you want to support the show

go smash the five start button wherever you listen go watch along with us on the youtube channel where you and see all of the clips that we're talking about with these players. I believe we're up to 22 of these deep dives now this season, and they're all archived on the YouTube channel and on the podcast feed, of course. So if you want to prepare for the postseason by kind of figuring out some of these standout skills we talk about, and so you can enjoy the games more while you watch them on your couch, I highly recommend doing so. And thank you for listening.

We'll be back tomorrow with another episode of HockeyPedioCast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.