The Hockey PDOcast - Joe Pavelski's 1000 points, and 1,000,000 tips

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

Sean Shapiro joins Dimitri to reflect on Joe Pavelski's career and the impact he's had on the Stars after he reached 1,000 NHL points.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitra Filippovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Sean Shapiro, Sean. What's going on, man? It's a good day. The weather's finally turning really nice here in the Michigan area. And I got to see some milestone hockey last night.

It's a good day. Yeah, we're coming off a pretty fun night of hockey on Monday night in the NHL. Eric Carlson hit 100 points. the first offenseman since Brian Leach over 30 years ago to do so. Claude Drew became the 96th player in Asia history to hit 1,000 points. And then, I don't know, did we clock how long after half an hour later or so? Joe Pavelski became the 97th player to do so. Yeah, I mean, it was enough of a point of conversation where I was talking to the,

I was talking to Matt Rodel, who's the stars director of analytics and the press box in Detroit during the first intermission. And we had watched the video of senators clearing the bench, right? or to come out to celebrate Juru's 1,000th goal. And we were discussing how that's now the precedent that the stars now had to do the same. And then so probably at least 20, probably that 25 minutes gap between probably.

Well, you know, teams often treat like their like analytics departments as sort of this like black box. It's a mysterious. No one really knows what's doing or what they're doing or how they're doing it. Fans are always interested. So it's nice to get a peek behind the curtain here that we know that the stars are using their analytic staff

to orchestrate player celebrations. I think that's a very underrated part of the game. For sure, for sure. I mean, the celebrations per 60 are very important. I think that's something that careers are built on. So players on ice per 60. Should have drawn to delay a game. Sabres did the, I'm going through my list of stuff that happened last night,

just so we don't forget anything important. Sabers did the Anton Hudobin clip from the bubble, just loudly said we're not going home as they came from behind, beat the Rangers and a really fun shootout. It was fun watching Devin Levi and Igorish's drinking go head to head in that capacity and go back and forth.

And then watching especially Levi, you know, acquit himself against our Temi Panera who they flashed the graphic as like a 60% plus success rate in the shootout on many attempts in his NHL career. He's just absolutely lethal. And Levi just gave him nothing to shoot at. It was really fun to watch that back and forth. and then as a nice little nightcap for the West Coast audience,

Donald Sutter using Nick Ritchie in the third round of a must-win shootout where a goal would have sealed them a huge two points instead of Tyler Tofoli or Andrew Majie Pani or Elias Linholm or pretty much any other significantly more talented and better player than Nick Ritchie. And of course, he doesn't score the flames lose in very flames fashion. The 30th one goal loss this season, which is a remarkable stat to try to wrap your head around. A lot happen in the NHL. A lot, a lot happened.

What was your favorite of the bunch? You think that was in the Ritchie for Ritchie trade? Do you think there was some clause in there where it's like, they was thrown like the coyotes were like, you must use this Ritchie in a shootout at some point. Like that's the only justifiable reason I can think of this. Going around decision. Going along the theme of analytics going too far,

Daryl Sutter in the post-game interviews, citing the fact that Dick Ritchie had once scored in a shootout against, Susie Sorrows as the reason for why he was his choice was like, all right, the math has gone too far. This is enough. He's said he's five career shootouts in his whatever long, how long career. This is enough. I've, I've seen enough. We've jumped the shark. I really love, I didn't get to watch that game in person because it was at the Detroit Dallas game, but I really love the Devin Levi's story. Like you look at, we've talked about him a bit, right? Yeah, I've talked to chat with him last week. I really love the way he approaches the game.

He's like, he's a real. And I also like, he's got the bit of the chip on his shoulder short goal. Like, like, he's sorrow. It's like, it's good. It's like we have like UC Soros no longer is going to be the only short goalie remaining. Like we just, we kept waiting for one other sub six foot guy to be able to at least continue the lineage. And like we have that guy in Devon Levi. So I feel at least when I go play beer league and I'm 510, I can be like,

I'm tall enough to play in the NHL, or I could just be close enough to Toronto to be an ATO. That's another option too. But the, it's, I, I love the Buffalo story. I don't think they're going to get in.

It's hard to see, if they get in, it'd be awesome. Like, I would love to see, I'm dreaming of the Devin Levi versus the Bruins first round. Like, how great would that be?

The guy from Northeastern, who stood on his head there going against Boston. I would love that story. I don't think it's, going to happen. I just, it's, it's, there's a lot that has to happen one way or the other, but I would love it. Well, the real story

there is that the Sabres are the most like, chaotically fun team in the league. Oh, yeah. Essentially. And so I would love to just see that against the team, especially that's like as structured and disciplined in defensively as the Bruins. It would be quite the, uh, polar opposite. I'm sure, uh,

a learning curve for the Sabers there, but, you know, a good one. It's still fun to watch. Yeah, the Levi thing is interesting. I had a Kevin Woodley on the show last week and he was sort of talking about, um, you know, Levi's process, I guess, and kind of his desire and appetite to get better at his craft. And for a lot of these young players, right, there's a reason they've been successful so far. Part of it surely is just like athleticism, but part of it is also work ethic and just constantly

watching other guys who are successful in the league trying to get better. And he was talking about how Levi is like using, you know, virtual reality before games to get to get in the zone and to get prepare himself, how he's like crunching all this tape and trying to watch other goalies and pick stuff up how before he was allowed to play for the Sabres while he was waiting for his work visa to come through. He was just like sitting in the press box and like keeping hand track notes of where the Sabres were giving up shots from so that he could sort of, you know, put himself in those shoes and try to, you know, get prepared because he wasn't basically like practicing with the team for that long, right? And so all that stuff's really cool. You can kind

of see he's like very active in net and maybe sometimes that detrimentally so. Like there's times where he just comes out so far and loses his crease and someone misses the net and it hits like the boards behind and I'm worried that it's going to bounce back and you know someone's going to have a tap in just because he's still out of position I think once he becomes more comfortable in the league and especially has a summer to like digest and prepare for other shooters which it seems like he really likes to do I think he's going to have a huge edge in that regard but you can just see like the traits that everyone loves right like how like he competes and battles and how aggressive he is coming out to challenge shooters like all that stuff is is really fun to watch He has for as far as the, not the style of goaltending because they're too different. Like obviously, Jake Ottinger is a different style of goaltender. He's that big. They have different bases. But I do get very similar preparation vibes between the two of them, where both of them are very nerdy about how they consume the game, very nerdy about how they consume where things

come from in that side of the prep. Obviously, very different. Stylistically, yes. stylistically, but off the ice, very similar in the approach of going to going into a game. It's, it's interesting to watch there. I love that. Okay. Well, so one of the things that happened other than the Levi's story last night was Pavelsky

and you were there in the building for that. I believe you had one year where you guys intersected, right, when you were still on the stars beat and it was his first year with the team, I believe? Is that, or were you there for a longer? So I covered the team. I covered I covered Pavellsky for on a full beat basis during the 2019-20 season, which went through the bubble. And then I was still in Dallas during the 20, even though I was no longer on the Stars beat, I was still in Dallas during the 2021 season. So I still had a, still had six-foot distant interactions with Pavellski at the time.

But so, yeah, he's someone who I kind of was around, watched him on a day-to-day basis for two years. have gotten to know a little bit as well since because during the bubble, there's just random players that in media coverage who were better about answering the phone than others. Like I just was one of those where like during the, I remember during the, during the delay where there's a stall, right? With the season ends in March, the season ends in March gets stalled and we're all like, oh man, we're back in three weeks and we're back in August or whatever.

But like he was back in Wisconsin and he was always really good about answering the phone. phone as a reporter and talking about what he was what he was tackling things and so i've gotten to know felsky a little bit that way and very uh like you look at a guy who like how perfect is that that's the goal right the goal for a thousand points like you could not that you could have scripted it that that's the one you would have scripted right like that tip he's and i i wrote this like i do some work for for d magazine down in dallas and i was writing a story about jason robinson today and I was talking about that moment. And in the story, I wrote about how Velsky scored on a goal that he's,

a play that he's practiced literally a million times in his life. And my editor just gave me a call. He's like, are we sure it's a million? Like, he just gives, like, he's like, are we sure it's a million? That's a little hyperbolic. I'm like, well, he tips about 100 pucks before and practice every day since he's been 16 years old. It's like, yeah, like, yeah, it probably is in the million.

Yes. So it's, it was just a perfect way for him score 1,000. And it's, it's funny. Like, after the game, they were having the debate. So the goal was Heskinin had the, it was a 71st point tying Zubov's Dallas Star's record. So they got one, it's a thousand point new franchise record for points by defensemen. They're going through

the debate of, okay, who gets the puck? Just like, now obviously Joe was going to get the puck where let's, let's be honest how it was going to be a bit more prestigious. Yes, yes, but yes, but it was still the, it was still the, They both got the picture at the puck individually. And then Jason Raidman, the wonderful SARS team services guy, quickly handed the puck to the thousand point score. Well, I went back and watch his goals from the season because I was like, I wonder when the last time he scored like off a shot was.

And his last eight goals have been tips, deflections, redirections, all like carbon copies of each other. Right. And so it is very fitting that he scored his thousand point in that way. it was also really interesting because it kind of captured what's made him so effective and also what's made that line so effective over the past two and a half years or whatever since they've been put together because they had that initial foray into the zone, right? And I believe the puck comes over to Pavelski.

He has like a really good high quality scoring chance on the side of the net. It gets blocked by sider. It kind of goes behind the net. They retrieve it. They cycle it back out. And then him and Robertson at the same time, occupy nearly the same space in that middle of the ice between the two circles where they're both funneling up and it just happens to come to Pavelski's side and like with his back turn

to the net without even looking. He he deflects an otherwise very sort of harmless looking shot into a high danger chance which turns into a goal. And that's the other cool thing. Not only has Pavelsky served as such a valuable resource, I'm sure, for Robertson in his ascension into being a superstar in the league, but also they kind of like occupy the same areas of the ice and it's always interesting to see them sort of compete for that position, right? And sometimes they overlap in that way. And it's not bad because they've had goals where they kind of provide this layer of tips and screens where like one guy is slightly in front of the other and he gets

a piece of it. And then the other guy tips it away. And it's always amusing to be like, oh, okay, who was the last one to touch that? Who gets the goal here and who gets the assist? There's been a few instances I can remember that that exact same thing happened. And the stars in general is someone who covered the team. And after, there's two parts to this, right? There was a part of it is kind of had the, who was shooting the puck from the blue line,

kind of slightly changed over the last couple years. But you look at from the time Pavelsky came in and kind of from year two on, the stars as a double-layered double-tipped team just like even the goal last, the other goal later in the game where, and it's a 6-1 game or whatever, so it was completely lost in the shuffle. but it's a similar play where Colin Miller takes a shot from the point, Jamie Ben's going through, and it actually just bounces off Jamie's rear end and goes in.

As the stars in general have just really embraced kind of like, Joe Pavelsky came to town, and it was like, oh, this is what Joe does. We're all going to do this. And it's, and I love watching, like, I love watching Robertson and Pavelsky play off each other, because it's something where there's that understanding where they're both, kind of trying to occupy the same space. But when, and neither of them are fast. It's like a turtle race, right?

Like it's like a turtle race to the area. They both get to the same spot. But the guy who gets there first is almost willing to concede it and slightly move. It's, it's a great thing to watch. And it's something that, like, it's, I really enjoy there. There's some press box in the league like Detroit. And if you can survive the dangling death box in Calgary and stuff like that, there's some perspectives where you're right above the play.

And it's really fun to watch just kind of like, the above to see how they intersect and kind of the, I guess if you were to use the football analogy, like the All 22 camera angle, just to see how they play off each other once. It's set play, but it's not really set play. Well, gone are the days, the definition of what a net front player is has changed so much for the past handful of years, right? Like, gone are the days where you can just like sort of post up there and just hang out and just wait for something that happened, right?

that's that's your because you're essentially taking yourself out of the play it becomes much easier to defend that's like okay we don't have to account for this guy it's much more difficult the lightning a handful of years ago where a team that was really utilizing this well with you know guys like coloren and and such where like it's constantly moving in and out right and like trying to time it so that you come there when the puck comes there and otherwise it's like someone's always chasing you it's really difficult to know when that's going to happen and you see that as we try to kind of grasp what is the definition of hockey sense right what is that look like that that's what you're describing there where it's like the timing and the intellect

that it requires to as you watch that it's not by accident like pevelsky and roberts that are both moving up that middle funnel at the exact time as the pot the shot's about to be taken and then getting their sticks in place and that's like that must be a goalie's nightmare right because like how do you even you can't get set for that it's like that puck could pretty much go anywhere it's almost the word net front he has become an evolved in a very fun way into expanding the net front. It can be the moving and out. It can be the moving, moving the forward and backward.

It can also be the part where there's some of the net front where it's essentially extending the, it's basically extending the net front in the shooting space almost six feet one way or the other just by using, by creating the angles on tips and things like that. It's just, it's become so much about, it used to be just, you stand up there, you take a couple wax to the back of your,

knees and you just you just stand there and you're a tough guy and now it's about expanding the avenue expanding the options it's like we should have called almost net front expansion now like that's what it should be called though because it's no longer something where you even have to be big to do it right like you have to be you can be a obviously if you're a bigger guy that can move it's you take goalies away easier obviously makes a ton of sense but you don't have to be you don't have to be a john mclare to stand in front of the net anymore that's not that's not the way it is anymore I'm going deep into the archives on that one. But you know what I mean?

No, I love it. I love a, you know, when Victor Arvinson came on the scene, he was playing for the Predators. And he was like, they were using him to screen the goal. He was just like jumping as high as he could to take his eyes away. Like, yeah, there's definitely, it's definitely changed.

I think the timing and touch is much more important than in size, certainly in that regard. And, you know, Pavelski, um, what a career he's had. I was thinking about this because once he hits a thousand points, right? There's a lot of conversations about like, Hall of Fame and all that and trying to put his career into context. I think much more interesting for me as I was thinking about his career is like there's

a case for him to be made as like the quote unquote analytics player. Right. Like he is like he has captured this era so well in terms of the advances of the game and our appreciation for different things. He comes into the league. His first full season is 2007, 2008, which is fittingly the first year we have data going back to in that regard. right with him on the ice since he since that 2007 season at 5-1-5 his teams are up 742 to

543 so nearly plus 200 58% goal share there only time he wasn't a net positive in his 16 seasons was 2018 19 his final year with the sharks yeah and like all the underlying numbers under the hood were through the roof as well he was still dominant just wasn't getting any saves behind him in that time 58% expected goal share as well he's drawn 364 penalties taken just 190. This year he's drawn 25 taken four another part of his sort of resume in that regard and just the consistency from year to year as well where actually fittingly enough the first year that you're talking about covering him for the stars was really the only regular season where his offense just completely dried up. And I remember at the time being like,

okay, he's 35. He just signed this pretty expensive three year deal. I'm a little bit worried about this. And then in Pavelsky fashion, he turns it on in the playoffs. has 13 goals or whatever during that run to the Stanley Cup final. The following year, they put him together with Robertson and Hints, and he's bounced back basically essentially to his peak seasons. And so what a remarkable career there and kind of, you need to look beyond just like the thousand points is great.

And that's why we're talking about this. And that's why he was being celebrated. But there's so much more that goes into that beyond just those counting stats that have made him so effective. It's interesting. Like the longevity of it is like when he's signed with Dallas, it was like, guy, well, this is a, okay, this will be kind of an end of the career weird thing, but it's like,

just from an optical, like, thing, like, I would have never thought, and obviously he'll always be a San Jose shark first. That's not the, that's not really changing things. He spent 13 years there. You're the captain there. Like, that's always going to, but I wouldn't have thought when he came to Dallas that it's something where you would have looked back at Pavelsi's career and those would be in the first minute of his highlights. Just to be, like, when you look back, like, you would have thought like, okay, well, It would be kind of, it would be one of those things where out. And it looks weird to see Joe Pavelsky playing for Dallas after so long in Stan. I was like, no, it's, he's carved out like an incredible second team spot.

And the way, and just for him to be playing on one of the better lines in the NHL 38 and just the way he played. Like, it's the only shame, the only shame of the fact. And maybe it's not because he just keeps beating the aging curve is at some point, age will take away the Robertson-Hins-Pevsky line. It's one of the reasons every time I watch Dallas like you want to like savor it every time because it's they can't play together forever and but they're so fun to watch together.

Yeah. Yeah. They're not peers from like an age perspective, right? Yeah. Because Pavolski's been around so much longer than them. Yeah. I mean, it's funny when he signed that deal as a 35 year old to leave San Jose and go to Dallas,

I was nervous about it. I have to admit, I was like, man, like I don't, he's still performed really well the year before, but I was like, I don't know about this at this stage of his career. And you look now,

he's going to be 30. I believe this summer. Yeah. He's performing at a 28 goal, 78 point pace, which is kind of like in line with his career averages. He's so efficient because he doesn't, he's changed his game and now he takes all of these shots that are around the net and tips and stuff like that.

So his efficiency is through the roof, right? Like he doesn't really take bad shots unless it's setting something up down the line. And so he's really efficient at turning shots into goals. He's a very integral part of what makes Dallas special offensively in that regard. And watching his game, I truly think, like, the only limiting factor is going to be when he feels like he just doesn't want to go through the grinds of being an NHL player anymore, right? Of the preparation of getting your body ready, of the day-to-day of an 82 game regular season and wearing terrible all that and being away from your family and everything. Because his game right now is so conducive to just basically, I feel like he can just keep doing this every single year he wants to until he decides that he's had enough. And he's an interesting case, too, when it comes to family.

because a lot of times you talk about like being away from your family and stuff like that. Joe has someone who most guys like you, you talk about players and players have like Joe, Joe's son Nate is, I believe is 12 years old now. And so like his son has been, Joe is, Joe and I've talked about this before. It's like he's so appreciative that his son has been able to actually like see his NHL career. His NHL career isn't like Nate is not going to be, it's not like Joe will have to tell his kid like, oh, this is, this is a, I played hockey and I was pretty good someday.

Like his son gets to watch it. And it's the other thing, and I think we've talked about it before, but it's just amazing to think like, so Joe Pavelsky's 38, 19 year old Wyatt Johnson is living with him right now. Nate, I believe, turns 13 this summer, I think. I don't know Nate's birthday, but like, he's about to have two teenagers in his house. One is his teammate and one is his son. it's the it's one of the great stories in hockey honestly that's pretty good that's pretty good i mean yeah our pal uh david castillo wrote a really interesting piece for for d magazine which you cited earlier

yeah and i thought it was really cool to see it framed that way of like how not only pavelsky levels is game up in in the playoffs but also what an important part like you really could make a fair case that you know certainly like he's can in just because of how much he plays and and how much he territorially moves the dial in the favor of the stars is their most important player. Jake O'Dinger, Rupa Haines to the center. But Pavelsky, like, because of his game and because of the way he operates, that's how you, at times when the game bogs down, that's how you need to create goals in NHHL postseason, right?

And so for him to be still this part, this important of a figure on a team that has legitimate Stanley. A couple of aspirations out west is really interesting to me. It's not just that he's sort of as like, as a 39-year-old veteran presence who's mentoring Wyatt Johnson and taking him in and showing him the ropes of the NHL. He's leading by example in that way because he's still on ice, one of, if not their most important player. So that's kind of cool. He's not going to be the, like he'll be on those lists, right? But like a lot of those times those old guy without a cup lists are more of guys who are almost hanging on most of the time.

It'll be like, this is the guy who's past their prime and. sticking around and still keeps going because they want to win one. And Havelsky isn't the old guy without a cup for that reason. He's the old guy who could lead a team to a cup. Like that's, that's a legit possibility. And that doesn't, I mean, what he's done to the aging curve is, I mean, it's, you and I talked, you and I had a long chat about Ovechkin earlier. And they were like, Ovechkin is obviously the gold standard for what he's done to an aging

curve. But we're talking about two guys that we watched this year in the NHL that just like, just have smashed what it's supposed to happen as you could hold so they have and and i don't know something about the sustainability of it right maybe maybe i'm i'm taking for granted how much goes into him being as effective as he is right like at some point i'm sure the the coordination and the hand eye and the speed of the hands will maybe progress a little bit and i'll make it more difficult for him to do this but like not to diminish the physical achievements yeah did it take for him to be as productive as he is,

but like him's just sort of gliding around the offensive zone and then popping in today in her slot and having his stick in place and tipping it. Like, I don't know, I don't know if I'm framing that right, but if something about it feels like I could see 42-year-old Joe Pavelski doing this if he so chooses. I don't think he's going to decline physically to the,

he might start getting injured more, and that's another part of this, right? Like, since he turned 30, he's missed 10 out of 700 possible games in his career. Like that's remarkable to turn 30 and then just be as healthy and available as he's been. And so maybe that'll change a little bit. But in terms of on-ice utility,

like it's tough to envision that really changing for him. So that's kind of cool as well. It's the whole thing where you were never fast. You can't get slow, right? So it's he, that's just a reality with him. And it's why like I look at it's, I look at him and it's interesting.

Everything just connects to Robertson away too, where Robertson's in the guy where Jason Robertson, long term and obviously you look at his game where it's like very similar where he's not fast so he can't get slow so his game will age well so well do you so bovowski is also interesting because he signed the three-year deal it'll come there right and then since then i believe he's been playing on a one-year deals and it's been diminishing in value as well even though his actual production hasn't right like he's like taking less and less to help keep this team together to stay right like i believe like next year he's a 3.5 million dollar dealers and like that

But it's a 2 million bonus after 10 games played. Oh, there we go. It's the, it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's still still one year of 5.5.5 million. Yes. I imagine because of all the other intangibles like purely like just a production. I feel like he could he could get more if he is so too wanted to but he clearly likes it there and he found a great home so it makes sense but he likes it there he's got he has it

but it and by taking that type of deal it gives the stars a little. bit more flexibility in the off season to make it work and all that stuff. But it's- Plus why Johnson's paying rent and so it helps pay the bills as well. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting. And anything else on Popelski or should we go to break here? I think it's funny because I think the one other thing on Pavelsky that always just comes

up that's just like, it's, you talk about the old guy who clips close to end of his career. He's like, he's the best golfer in the NHL. Like he's got like literally he's got like he's he every single year he gets invited to golf and like there's that like big like charity like pro am that I think Tony Romo's won it a couple times and like he's finished like second in it a couple times. And so you look at a guy who's like the narrative would be so easy for him to be like on the way out where they're like, oh, we're just trying to put Joe back on the golf course where he belongs like and that never comes up. And it's also funny too where it's like anyone who talks about Joe Pavlsky, you two. you talk about how important golf is in his life. When it was Dallas and Tampa, came to Dallas and Tampa to sign,

there was no way Joe Pavelsky was signing somewhere where he couldn't golf in December and January. The stars as a team golf like four to five times a week. It's one of the big draws of it. And you know what? Maybe that's maybe that's the trick. Maybe that's the market. Yeah, that's the marketing.

I love that. Okay. Well, Joe Pavelsky, what a player, looking forward to still doing him. his thing, it's not necessarily putting the bow on his career by any means because he still has plenty of runaway here. But the fact that he got that milestone last night gave us a nice little chance to sort of reflect on what's made him so special. Sean, let's take a break here. And then when we come back, we'll keep chatting.

You're listening to an Occupiedio cast as always streaming on the SportsNet Radio Network. Everything Canucks before and after the games. Canucks Central with Dan Riccio and Satyar Shah. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here on the Hockey Pediocass, Sean Shapiro, Sean. You know, we talked Pavelski at the top. Let's talk a little bit about the AHA. Last time you and I convened a couple weeks ago,

we talked about how the league NHL uses it as a developmental league, you know, the pros and cons of the objective, I guess, what you're trying to accomplish with the way you run your HL team. Since then, I believe we got word that the Chicago, wolves are going to try to make it as an independent team basically, right? And you wrote about that. You also, and I'll let you plug this here, you put out a fantastic book on the Texas stars and the HL as well. So we can kind of tie that in because there have been some big developments for a lot of the conversations we've been having here, right? One is this idea that that I've been kicking

around, which is like NHL, the NHL is so said in its ways in terms of like how it like views like role players and they need to be these veterans and they need to play a certain way. and that's viewed safer by a lot of these curmudgeoning coaches. And instead, you've got all these young H.L players who are very clearly more skilled and probably have more to offer if they're given the opportunity, just like paying their dues in the HL and waiting for the opportunity to shine. And then you see what we can talk Nashville. You see like how that's turned out for them.

And then also we had a conversation last time about the idea of each team getting to have a third sort of bullpen goalie that can be with the team and he'd be used in emergency situations. And that's been a big story. this week with the Leafs. And it looks like they're not going to have to use, you know, a junior goalie or, or anyone because the league's letting them use Joseph Wall tonight against Tampa Bay. But still, it's, it's been a big week for our HAL conversations and some of the

half-bay concepts we've been kicking around that are kind of coming to fruition here. Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny how that all comes together. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the Chicago. The Chicago Wolves thing was super interesting when it came out last week. The eBug thing, I mean, and then I'll take the quick chance to plug here. Like, I actually wrote a whole book about the, I have a soft spot in my heart for the HL because part of me being able to actually make it as a hockey writer was I got to go cover the Texas stars down in Cedar Park in Austin.

And the, and good friend of mine, Stephen Berser, who was known only on Twitter as 100 degree hockey. this is the first time Stephen's ever done anything under his public real name. He's always just been 100 degree hockey on Twitter. And him and I would always get beers after games. And in Austin, after Texas Stars games, we would just be talking about a lot of the HL stuff. And we would always half jokingly say, like, ah, let's, we should write this down. And so we finally did.

So self-published a book this week called We Win here. It goes to the Texas Stars actually in their locker room have a big, it's printed on the wall there. We win here, which is obviously. goes, and you and I've talked about the AHAL before, actually goes a little bit against part of the HL mantra where a lot of teams are, for the reason we have an entire Western Conference, West Coast Division now, where it's more about practice versus the win loss at the end of the day. But yeah, we went here.

We even snagged the easy URL. We Win Here.com. A collection of stories and essays about Texas stars, the AHA, why it all matters, sent a copy to you. Hopefully you've enjoyed your brief perusing. initial foray yes it's a busy time here in the nchel circles but certainly have gotten a taste of it and it's highly recommended well okay so let you yeah which one of these do you want to take first then do you want to take the the predators and how they're using their young players do you want to talk open goalies do you want to talk let's talk yeah let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's let's

let's let's let's talk predators right now because it's a team that uh it's a really interesting team right Like they're in this spot where basically they're still in. I think Winnipeg can win and get in tonight, right? I think, I think that's the official. Is that the official Winnipeg can knock them out tonight, I think? I think so is the timeline. So it's the last chance we can talk, maybe the last chance. But who knows?

I mean, I've covered Rick Bowers. Yeah, Winnipeg is 93 points in 80 games. The Predators have 90 points in 80 games. So yes. Yeah. So, but. the predators are in this spot where you and I were messaging about it where it's like they go from this team where you're kind of struggling and then they start trading pieces away guys get hurt

and they start calling these guys up from Milwaukee who oh lo and behold they're better options and it's it's it's it's a case and point for a statement that you've made before on the show where it's too often we have guys who are quote unquote NHL players who there's a much better option within the organization, maybe even two, three options better within the organization that we're just completely ignoring who, A, are younger, probably more willing to play junk roles, for lack of a better word, and B, probably making less than a million dollars a year.

So it's almost cap malpractice across the league and people don't talk enough about it because everyone does it. Yeah, I mean, obviously, anything that you mentioned in terms of them still being mathematically alive or playing better since the trade deadline has to cite UC Soros just being ridiculous, right? And there's been, I mean, we saw it last night in Calgary game, they won. There's been many nights during this stretch where they were pretty clearly outclassed. And you could tell that if they gave up a goal or too early, they just weren't going to have a chance

to come back because they don't have a lot of offensive pop or juice to their game. if you look at their current roster. And so it, this has been on sorrows to basically stand on his head and make 40, 45 saves. And he's come through many times because he's one of, if not the best goalies in the entire league right now.

But it is interesting that, you know, they trade at home. They trade need a rider. They trade Tanner Genoa. Philip Forsberg, Roman Yose, Matthew Shane, and Ryan Johansson all get hurt.

And so they have to dip into, if you look at their roster right now, it's pretty much everyone that has played significant games in the HAL for the Milwaukee admirals this season, right? Like you've got Tommy Novak, Phil Tomasino, Luke Evangelista, they've been sort of their leading scorers since then. And it's young guys who, especially in the case of, I think, Thomasino, I think it's pretty

clear that John Hines, like many NHL coaches, was like uncomfortable with relying on him, right? There's much like sort of meat and potatoes, grinder types in that bottom six. You're much more comfortable utilizing those guys. And so then he's just stuck in the HL playing games. and then he comes up and he quits himself very nicely. It's pretty clear that he should be in the NHL. He should be playing. And I think based on the way these guys have played,

I'm not sure what Barry Trott's coming in and the organization kind of changing his direction and what that meant for John Hines. But I think there was a fair case to be made that they probably would have considered looking elsewhere for a new coach this offseason. I know I think he has like one year left in his deal, so maybe they just would have played it out as a rebuilding team.

But because of this sort of spirited run where against all odds, they've hung around for as long as they have. have even after becoming sellers of the deadline, it's pretty clear now that they're going to bring Heinz back. And so these guys in a way, ironically, saved his job after he probably was at least part of, he definitely wasn't pounding the table being like, I need to have these guys up in the NHL with me at the very least, even if he wasn't actively sending them down. And so I don't know, I think the irony of that is certainly not lost on me. And I think is a very interesting case study

to keep in mind moving forward. There's another irony to this too where when the predators decided to go with John Hines. They did not go with their HAL coach Carl Taylor, who had actually coached a game. I believe he he'd actually coached a game coming out of the bubble or whatever it was, but like

they didn't go with, they didn't go with their HL coach. And now the guy, the guys that the HL coach has put together have basically helped the guy above him keep, there's just another funny like coaching irony of all of this where John Hine, where if the predators fall,

fall off the bat and these guys don't come up and save John Heinz job. John Heinz is probably gone. And maybe Carl Taylor gets the job. It's just a fun. There's lots of ironies in this. Lots of lots of fun things there. I don't know. Playing this out and thinking about it though.

I think how the game has changed in terms of, you know, we talk constantly about how every team is embracing, kind of having four lines that can all play a skill game. And the baseline level of talent in the league is so much higher than it used to be. right. I think there used to be an argument that I mean, of course, teams like carry it around and actively dress like enforcers, right, and guys who are pretty much there just to fight. But for the most part, their fourth line was like, all right, you guys are going to play

four to seven minutes tonight. You're going to get a shift occasionally, go in there, maybe try to change the momentum if things are going bad for us, throw a couple hits, get in a fight. That's all we need from you, right? And now there's teams that are certainly using their fourth liners as, you know, specialists for like, all right, you're going to kill penalties. these for us or you're going to use you exclusively for defensive zone draws and things like that. And I get that that might not be a situation where you'd want to put like a 20 year old skilled player out of major junior in. I understand that.

But for the most part, just because of the contract status with the ELCs and the fact that, you know, they clearly have a higher talent level and ability to actually contribute meaningfully and trying to win hockey games. I don't think there's a lot of excuse. I don't buy the argument that young players are better. suited playing in the HL given the state of that league as opposed to even if it is playing eight to 10 minutes a night at the NHL level because I just think that that'll be better and they have more to offer than a lot of the alternatives I guess. Yeah, I had a really

interesting conversation with a player about this this week, someone I who had covered for a long time in my career. And ironically, he's in Detroit now that I am in, in Alex Chazon. And Alex Chazon obviously doesn't fit the young player mold. But him and I were talking about the role of the bottom six in the NHL where where Shazan is a guy who is playing that not front role in Detroit since Tyler Bertuzi left and has been doing it rather well. And the whole concept of coaches in general, and it's expanding to whether it expands to young players depends greatly on who the coaches, but in general have been able to, it used to be more so of a coach would look at, okay, I'm picking my power play guys, I'm picking for my top six, where you might have a guy who has a skill set that only

fits on the power play. You might have a, like, that's what Chezon knows, for example. He's a perfect example of that. He is at five on five, he's a bottom six fringe player. But on the power play, he's pretty good in front of the net. And he was telling me how his hope, he was having a pretty good hope that his career will be able to continue because coaches are thinking more like this, that he's going to, there's more, there will be more teams that look where he can play on the fourth line and still

be a net front power play guy. And just, and that extends to, we need to apply that to younger players. We need to apply that to, there are guys who can learn these roles and can play on the bottom, can play third, fourth line, left wing or whatever, and still play a spot on the power play can still do this or kill penalties. Like, it's, it's, it's, hopefully things continue to evolve that way. It's, there's always going to be, it's copycat league, right? you need someone to lead the charge on it. And it's not going to be two guys standing behind a microphone. It needs to be a coach doing it.

But we can at least try. Yeah, we're doing our part. Well, speaking of the Red Wings, a topic I did have here on my list that I wanted at least touch on with you. I'm not sure how much you've talked with any more conversations you've had there in Detroit. But following along what's happening with Simon Edvinson's contract status is very fascinating to me because the Red Wings pretty carefully were curating how many games he was playing, so there's contract would slide and so his ELC wouldn't kick in this season.

And I think initially we've been programmed to think that, especially with the way baseball operates, right, where there's a lot of shenanigans with avoiding basically or prolonging how long you have to wait until you pay a player what they're worth. We've been programmed to think, all right, that's smart business, right? It's a good practice to do that.

You don't want to just waste a year where you have this guy under control and his ELC. Let's start that next year. And giving them more thought and doing some reading on it, I actually think it's kind of the opposite, right? With the success we've seen young teams or teams have with getting young players with limited service time and limited data to show as like, all right, I deserve to be paid accordingly. Getting those guys to sign long term deals as quickly as you can is probably the best way to maximize your cap sheet and get those players for future years for less than they're actually worth. And so in a way, I actually think it's almost the wrong way to look at it, especially for a team like the Red Wings that it makes sense when like a team that has a ton of expensive players and is right up against the cap does it because it's like,

all right, having Simon Edmondson next year or a year down the road for less is going to help prolong our window. But in this case, if anything, the Red Wings should be like, can we please burn all of your years right now so that we can just sign you to an eight year deal? because that's probably going to get us the best bang for our buck in years 4, 5, 6, 7. I don't know. What do you think about that? There's times I feel like Steve Iserman still thinks he's managing the Tampa Bay Lightning.

Like I think there's times where he's still running like that. Like saving Edvinson's contract by not burning the year, that's a Tampa Bay Lightning type move. That's the move where you're like, oh, we want to save that. And we've got all these guys on big contracts. We need to kick that down the can and deal with it later. But it feels like cat malpractice. me what the Red Wings are doing with Edmondson, where you should, he should be playing tonight, he should be playing Thursday, he should be playing all, he should play 11 games.

It should burn because from what I've seen, he's going to be an NHL regular, and the Red Wings have made it pretty clear, he's going to be an NHL regular in October from the start of the season. So he's going to have a full season to build up a case. He's going to have a second season to build up a case, too. You give him three seasons like the Red Wings are going to. he's going to demand so much more. He's going to play himself into so much more value.

And by burning the year, you move him closer to, okay, we can sign you to the long-term deal for a lower cap hit because you only have two years of proof. Now, right, he's going to be able to go into three years of proof and be like, I'm an RFA. I can ask for way more. I've proved this much. It's, to me, I think it's, I really think it's cat malpractice by Detroit on this because it's, it's something where if you were a good, team and you're living on the margins and you have a chance to win the cup this year and you're like like you know what do it that's fine figure it out but this is a team where they have lots of cap space you're spending you're spending you're you're you're still rotating half of verona's

salary this year and and next year and still have a ton of cap space like to me it's I think that there's such an old school thinking still of like oh you hold on to this service time control the service time. This is the case, and this is, it's not the only one. There's lots of cases where we should be seen from a management perspective, how can you buy more of a player's prime? You want to be able to sign Simon Edmondson to a, if he turns into what you think he's going to be, you want to be able to sign him to a lower cap hit for his entire mid-20s, as opposed to having to spend more because you wouldn't give him another game in 2023. Yeah, no, I mean, playing this out even further down the line, like, one.

of the only times where I think it's actually benefits a team to sign a young player to a bridge deal, unless there's like, you know, for whatever reason, circumstances or context where you're like, I'm not sure how much we want to commit to this guy. If you feel like, all right, this is going to be a player for us in the future is when you're a Stanley Cup contender and you just don't have the space that it'll take to buy up UFA years. So you're just trying to keep your team together and you get them for two or three years for cheap, which is what the lightning have feasted on, right? oh, for years now, getting players to sign those bridges. And then right after they pass that bridge,

all of a sudden, you give them that long seven, eight year deal. In this case, if you're a bad team and you're rebuilding and you're this part of your organizational arc, each one of these teams should be in a rush to sign their young players to as many years as they possibly can be. I think that's the way we need to look about it. So it was interesting because when I saw that, they were doing that. My initial reaction was like, all right, that makes sense.

And then I gave them more thought. I was like, okay, I actually, I don't agree with that at all. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a space where it goes back. It's also an interesting Detroit thing where like I look at the spot where the Red Wings, I know it's been, everyone's like, oh, trust the Izer plan. It's funny. Like last day, I tweeted it last day, the game. It's second intermission. They're down 6-1. Dara McCarty is waving his arms during the during the intermission and has a trustyzer plan shirt on and everything like that. And it's, it's one of those things where I'm watching that game last. night and I've seen Detroit all year, but it goes back to the end of the day. And it's because they were playing Dallas, which is where it's why the comp is my head. It's like, where is Detroit going to get their second round pick that scores 100 points? Where are they going to get their, where are they going to get their goal? Like, you look at the quote unquote, Eiser plan, and the more you try to piece it together, and I know everyone likes to pretend, oh, Steve's playing

3D chess. And I think that's just part of it is, There's a big reverence for what he did as a player in Detroit. And he gets a ton of credit for what happened to Tampa. But at the end of the day, I don't think he likes his team. Like, I really look at his team. I think he was pretty vocal about that at the deadline,

right, when he was explaining why they quickly pivoted after two losses to Ottawa. Yeah. And by the way, that was the right decision, right? They clearly put the cart before the horse this past off season where they spent a bunch of money on veterans. And they realized that they're not good enough.

And if anything, it's like, all right, we look at the Atlantic. And part of the logic was, well, we're just going to wait for Toronto and Boston and Tampa Bay to age out

and then all of a sudden we'll jump in and then it's like all right well Buffalo looks like they're quite a bit ahead of us. Ottawa looks like they're at least comparable if not slightly ahead of us. So that should be concerning and that's why you do need to take a step back. So I love what they did at the deadline but you're right. In the grand scheme of things, the whole plan that

everyone has been very like clutching their pearls about that's definitely happening in Detroit. It feels like it's kind of one of those things are like there's like this big board of like trust the Eiser plan. And like I'm sure Steve has a plan. But it also feels like what was the plan is probably crumbled and dissolved six different times. And now we're just kind of in the parts of moving sands from one hand to the other and seeing what sticks. And I'm not saying that it's not going to work. I'm not saying he's not going to fix things. It's just I don't see you need,

there's an immense requirement of luck factor. You're not, you need to, you need either the wings need to wings win first or second picking the lottery, everything changes. You get badarter, Fantilli, everything changes. But it's very... That's true for everyone, though, right? It is true for everyone. It is true for everyone.

But it's kind of this, it's for me always just coming from this perspective of, I always hear in Detroit of like, oh, well, Steve's got, Steve's going to do this the right way and trust what he's going to do. And I feel like too often, we forget that he is just another GM. at the end of the day. He is a GM. Like, he may be smarter. He definitely completely raked Vancouver over the coals. But at the end of the day, he is also a fallible GM. And I think sometimes that gets lost within this market.

All right, Sean. And now I'd everyone stop reading me because all that. The sound of that is all the Detroit people unsubscribing, leaving, and everything like that. No, that's fine. That's fine. I think, I mean, certainly it's a conversation, put a pen in it and then revisit it in the off season and see what they do at the draft, see what they do. with all the capsules that have. But yeah, definitely. I'll let you plug some stuff. You already plug the book.

You have a new podcast yourself coming out. You've been a busy guy. Let the listeners know about all that stuff. I am a very busy person. It's funny that I blame you for this because I was someone who once said that there's too many hockey podcasts. And now I'm a guest on your show. And I do the Dallas Stars one.

And now I have another one coming. So doing one this week, one that's coming out. Ironically enough in Detroit. So if you're a Detroit person, please still do subscribe and listen. I apologize. Steve is great. Working with the guys put together with a Borgman Prashant over at the Wingwheel podcast.

We're launching a new podcast that will come out once a week. That'll look at the NHL league wide, expected by whom. A wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful question that's been asked by some people. Yes. A phrase near and dear to my heart. Yes. I've got the substack, obviously, check that out. I'm in the middle of figuring out the content plan, quote, unquote, for playoffs on how it will handle that,

because obviously I'll no longer have much live hockey in Detroit here to watch. I was going to go, I was going to go watch. My original play was I was going to go watch Windsor, and I was going to try to do a really nice story on Shane Wright, and then that plan got completely debauched. So this is why you never make plans in this business. So, but check out the book. We win here.com.

It's obviously got a Texas. It's Texas stars and stars focus, but it's got a real nice HAL connection to everything. And if it reignites a bit of the Julius Honka Wars. So I always love that. This is something I didn't know I was missing in my life. Sean, this is a blast. Looking forward to having it on again soon.

For the listeners, if they want to help us out, go smash that five-star button wherever you listen. That's the only plug I have. And we'll be back tomorrow with plenty more of the Hockey Radiocast here on the Sports Night Radio Network.