The Hockey PDOcast - One Final Day of Preparation Before the Stanley Cup Final

Episode Date: June 7, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance to keep chatting about the Stanley Cup Final in advance of Saturday's Game 1. They talk about why Matthew Tkachuk is the key for the Panthers offensively, what Ryan Nugent-Hopkins does to seemingly always make the right play, and how important Evan Bouchard's skill set is in this particular matchup. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedocast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich, and joining me as my good buddy Thomas Tran. Tom, what's going on, man? Doing well, buddy. I'm excited for tomorrow. Like this, you know what? I actually kind of like that there's a quiet calm before the storm week in the NHL

because if you think about what's coming for the next three weeks, right? It's just going to be hockey games every second day, Stanley Cup awarded, and then, you know, on the later of June 15th or 48 hours after the cup is awarded, it's going to be like buyouts, NHL awards, draft, free agency, qualifying off for deadline. Like it's not- Pictures of cottages. Well, and then it suddenly comes to an abrupt end when, uh,

when, um, yeah, the, the major insiders tweet the photos from, uh, from lakes in Ontario. Yes. I mean, this next stretch, starting on Saturday. it's going to be non-stop hockey. And I actually didn't mind having, like, it sucks because I want these games to start, and I can't wait for tomorrow. But it's nice to almost have, like, some time for sober reflection ahead of hockey's

biggest showcase and then hockey's news apocalypse, which is upon us beginning Saturday. It is, I do miss the games. Because I was thinking, right now you and I have a great setup as people who have listened to us this week. No, we're out here in Palm Springs. We're having the time of our lives. We're doing a fantasy football startup dynasty mock draft or actual draft. I mean, we did a lot of mock draft. We're doing the draft.

We're hanging out in the pool. We're enjoying this 40-degree weather. We're drinking some long drinks, which I've heard people say are the second finest finish import after Sasha Barkoff. We're having a great time. All we're missing is actual meaningful hockey games to watch. We haven't had it for about a week. Our long national nightmare is almost over because we're almost there this Friday. or we're going to get it on Saturday.

So looking forward to it, is there any stuff that you think we've kind of left on the table from this series perspective? Because we've had a couple shows here this week, sort of previewing it. First, we did the X factors earlier. Then we did kind of a more macro view of some of the matchups that are going to define the series.

I feel like we've covered most of it or at least done like our fair share on pretty much everything that matters. Do you think we've left any kind of meat on the bone for preview purposes? I don't know that we have, but we haven't had an opportunity to react to practice lines from Sunrise.

at media. Nurse and CC have been reunited. Nurse and CC have been reunited. Yes. And the Oilers are in fact going with, you know, a Fogel third line with McLeod and Perry, Derek Ryan, who struggled, of course, against the stars, pulled out of the lineup. So, look, we debated this a little bit because I was wondering if the Oilers might feel that they need as much speed, maximum speed in their top nine, just to make sure.

that they can beat the Panthers pressure game similar to what they did against the Vancouver Canucks in their second round series. And, you know, they've gone the opposite direction, which was something I think you predicted. You assumed that they might consider because they've loaded up on the size of their second pair. They've kept Perry in the top nine. And, you know, they've, with Henrique and McLeod playing on different bottom six lines, they've really fattened their forward line overall. So my reaction to this is I do wonder how much Godreau has impacted some of what Nobloc's thinking about. I wonder how much Nobloc thinks that he can get at the Panthers' fourth line in the wake of what we saw in that Rangers series. And I do think he wants to have the size edge, at least as this series opens.

The greatest trick that the Panthers have played on the hockey world over these past two years has been sort of getting people to believe this idea that what makes them special is kind of this like toughness and physicality. And certainly there's an element of that. But I think it's sort of a bit of a red herring because what's happening beneath the surface is like just immense pressure and relentless pace and like undeniable skill as well. And so watching them play, I feel like it's easy, especially for an NHL coach to sort of talk themselves into like, oh, we need to be able to match this physicality. They're going to make the table.

Chuck and Bennett going to be buzzing around. It's like, oh, we need to have an answer for that. But the reality is that, I mean, in an ideal world, you would, but you can't kind of overcompensate for it and sort of diminish yourself or shoot yourself in the foot elsewhere. And I feel like that's what some of these decisions are shaping up to be. I think the good news is it's going to be a long series. I think we both believe. And it might be as simple as like just game one to sort of quote unquote set the tone. And then you'll quickly realize that what the demands of the series are going to entail is going to force you to actually do the right thing and field your best lineup.

Yeah. And I mean, the one other mitigating. thing is you put Henrique with Fogel and McLeod. Like it's one tweak to your forward line and it's Broberg goes back to playing with with Cici and Kulak moves back up to the right side and boom, you're right back to, you know, something closer to a lineup that allows you to approximate what I think we think they're going to need, which is, you know, to recognize that the Panthers are more likely to skate you off the ice than push you off of them. Yes.

And that that's your major threat. with, yeah. Well, okay, while we're on this topic, I've got a mailback question from a listener that kind of relates to this, and I think it's a good entryway for us because I think I want to take some mailback questions today as well since I think we have a bit of time at the end of the show. But Carmen asks, assuming we see Paul Maurice choose to use the Kachuk line versus the dry-sidal line when possible,

and given Kach's strengths playmaking from behind the net and along the wall, what's the best option for Edmonton from a defense pair perspective? Now, the reason why this is interesting is yesterday we spoke so much about how we're expecting a heavy dose of Barkov and Florida's top pair against McDavid and Edmonton's top pair, right? And because those guys all kind of played together for the most partner of five-man units. That's going to leave a situation where if we do get this second line versus second line, Florida is going to have Brandon Montreur and Nico Mikul out there, whereas Edmonton now might have Darnelner and Cody Cici, but regardless we'll have one of those guys. out there. And I think that's a very exploitable matchup from Florida's perspective because that kachuk line, as the listener astutely pointed out, works so much from like behind the net and sort of moves the puck around the offensive zone. And I think that's where those defensemen

struggle because all of a sudden they don't know where to go. They kind of get caught chasing. And then they forecheck so well as well. And neither of those guys, especially I think that's why they don't work together. Like they just cannot move the puck. And so they just wind up punting it off the boards and out. And we've talked about how Florida is just going to knock that down and bring it right. back in. And so I don't, it might last one game. It might not. This might just be kind of like, oh, yeah, we're going to do this. But when the game starts, they won't actually, or they'll quickly, like, common sense will prevail. But I just, they cannot get away with it in the series. You know, it's interesting. I mean, I don't mean to squirrel your sort of statement, but the idea

that they can't move the puck is sort of interesting to me, because I actually think they're both kind of interesting through the neutral zone. It's just, it's just, the blue line is a barrier them and they like cannot pass it with the puck but then as soon as they get past it I'm with you that they're useful as the third man in the rush and stuff like that it's it's almost like they they can support a puck carrier right you know what I mean but but neither of them's a primary and and it's almost like they're they both get caught leaning on occasion because they are I think both inclined and I actually think it's one of their best traits I think they're both inclined to try and be aggressive in supporting the breakout they just can't lead it from the back end

right and so it's like a it's almost a that I think diminishes them both beyond what's necessarily true about them individually. But, you know, I hadn't thought a ton about that soft underbelly that the Panthers can pick at. And now that I have, first of all, I bet that's the primary motivation and Nurse and Cece being reunited is that those are, you know, the two guys behind Bouchard and Eckholm that, that Nolbach, trusts most. And that sort of poses some really interesting tactical questions for the rest of the series. Like, can they continue to play Bouchard and McDavid as a five-man unit? At some point, do they have to consider evening it out to contest Florida's loaded second line? Are there, you know, how much can the Cachuk line, especially if they have success early in the series, get the Oilers out of

some of what's powered them here? And, you know, are, is it really that the OILS? Is it really that the Oilers just have to put up enough margin at the top of the lineup to offset. What, like, is the goal for McDavid ultimately to outscore whatever damage the Florida second line is able to do against the Oilers? That might be one of the central dynamics of the series. So what's their best option? I think it's Nurse Kulak. Yes.

But I don't say that with a ton of confidence. Yeah, I don't think they can play a nurse and CC together because they make, they get so easily pressured into, like, mistakes and, and lack of. of situational awareness with and without the puck. And that's just so exploitable when both guys are out there at the same time. Like one of them is just always messing up seemingly. And that's why you need Kulak out there because he's just so solid and reliable and pretty much the opposite of them in that way.

What do you think about the playing a lefty on the right side aspect given Florida's pressure game? Do you think that's something Nobloc is worried about? Like moving Kulak back to his natural left side and putting Broberg there, And getting a lefty out of your top four, is there something there too where it's like, I'm worried about Florida's pressure game, the way that they're going to try and overload the points when the, like defensively, like challenge at the point. And we don't want to give up rush chances as a result of Brett Kulak against Matthew Kachuk,

trying to take the puck on his backhand off the wall. Yeah. I certainly think there's something to that. We spoke a lot about how the Lendell-Lusterinen combination, it's going to be like, imperative for them to score in this series for Florida because that's where they could kind of yield an advantage. The more I think about it, I really think like Matthew Kachukh needs to have a monster series here because of what we're just saying where he's just going to get these assignments that I think are more exploitable for him, but can also then sort of

limit Leon Dre Seidel if you're just forcing him to expend energy chasing in a defensive zone. And you look at the series he had against New York, he wasn't necessarily scoring much, but the Panthers had 66% of the shots, 70% of the high danger chances with him, on the ice. And I was thinking about this. I think you'll like this analogy. The role he kind of plays as a bit of a midfield anchor there from a soccer perspective is very interesting in this series because something that Dallas really struggled with in the West Final against Edmonton was every time they would either sort of lob the puck into the neutral zone or try to get one of these longer plays, it would immediately get nullified by a Zach Hyman, by a Ryan, Eugene Hopkins,

by a dry side of or McDavid, where they would just be sort of winning these neutral zone battles. And Cachuk is one of the best players in the world at turning his back to the defender, sort of settling a wild puck, and then putting it on a silver platter for one of his teammates to then attack downhill or do something creatively. And so that's just something Dallas didn't really have as an option for them. And that was a limiting factor for them offensively. And so that's why I keep coming back to like, if Cichuk's able to win those neutral zone battles and kind of get them going in the right direction, it's going to answer a lot of the questions we have. have heading into the series. Yeah. So that's, yeah, I think it's a fantastic mailbag submission because in some ways it

reframes the question almost in a more interesting way that I think hits at perhaps the fundamental dynamic of the series, which is can the Oilers top five outscore everything else? We kind of knew that, but the Kachuk angle, the idea that the Panthers have their own offensive engine that can do similar damage. especially given that the Oilers probably can't hunt. Like the Oilers can't hunt minutes McDavid against Kachuk or the McDavid-led five-man unit against Kachuk because you don't want Barkov doing the same either. And so, yeah, I mean, that's going to be a fascinating thing to watch.

And I think hits at, you know, what's really been the question of this entire Oilers playoff run and one that they've been able to answer pretty definitively to this point. Well, if you take something from these shows, I think the main battleground for this series, obviously the special teams is going to play an outside's role. But can Edmonton have some sort of a viable plan for getting out of their zone against his Panthers forecheck? And then can they establish and maintain offensive zone possession time? Because the Panthers just never let you do that.

And if they're the one team that can actually sort of flex that muscle and get that job done, I think that actually gives them a legitimate chance in the series at 5-1-5, right? And that's where I come back to what we've talked about. talked about with that five-man unit and I think the value of Bluchard in particular here. And that's sort of been this kind of like elusive thing, right? Because the points are through the roof. The underlying numbers are off the charts. I think anyone that's following this stuff is like aware of how good he's been this postseason.

Yet we keep coming back to this conversation about in the grand scheme of NHL defenders, how good is he actually because he's in this such favorable environment playing on the power of play with these guys and playing with McDavid five-on-five. But then you watch these games and I think he'll see it in this series. if Edmonton is going to succeed, it's going to be because of his ability to enable everything Edmonton does better than anyone, right? His ability to quick up the puck to McDavid so that he doesn't have to do all the heavy lifting himself, how he pinches in the offensive zone to keep pucks alive and keep these offensive zone possessions. He just needs to play at his very best. And if that's

the case, I actually do think Edmonton can control with those guys out there, even if it is against Barkov and Forzling. Yeah. So how would you answer? Like, I was saying prior to the playoffs, stuff like I rated Bouchard as a top 15 NHL defenseman, and I think he's having a top five NHL season. Has his performance over the course of this playoffs in any way amended your view of sort of where he sits in that most lofty hierarchy? Because I probably would be willing

to upgrade him to like comfortably top 10. Yeah. I mean, that's a really good question. I think certainly based on performance all season, but this posting in particular, I just, I struggle with like him being knocked for the situation he's in because it doesn't ultimately matter in terms of it's not like we're having a conversation about all right well if edmonton trades him what can they get for him and then what would he look like in this new spot like he's just going to be playing in this spot for however many more years and so his ability to succeed in it is all that

really matters but we do downgrade mccar for playing with mckinan so much this season the way that they played together in the fact that mccar didn't eat at at quite the same, like with quite the same appetite that he usually does in the minutes away from McKinnon, I think did probably cost him Norris votes, right? Like, I do think that's a big reason why he won't win the Norris despite Goddy counting stats and doing four or five or 15 things over the course of the year that, like, we never see defensemen do that, like, took our breath away. So I don't think, I don't think it's like an unfair thing in that at least it applies to

the guy we all, you know, give the belt to as the best defenseman on the planet. Right? Like we're using that context on the car too. Right. I think that for me anyway, there's not a lot of defensemen that make an environment in the NHL. Like they contribute. Yes. But in terms of, you know, changing the environment on the ice, you know, I think a lot of that is usually the realm of the elite forwards. You're Barkov, Matthews, McKinnon, McDavid guys.

Yeah. But there's something to be said for being perfectly calibrated to be able to, make that environment sharper, like a sharper weapon for your team. And I don't think there's many defensemen on the planet that could take what McDavid does and turn it into as many goals, as many points, and as much control as Bouchard does. And to me, there's massive value in being an amplifier to that extent. Like, you know, he's like a subwoofer. Yeah.

He's not, he's not Bose speakers, Bluetooth speakers. He's like, you know, an industrial, like, you can play it at a, you know, in a field and host of Festi. Yeah. That's the sort of amplifier that Bouchard is. I'll take that. I'll take one of the biggest speakers in the league, especially if I've already got an environment set or like Nick Davis. Well, and the value of that particular skill set is also, I'd argue exactly what you need in this specific series. Yes.

Because of all these kind of traits that we just described. I also think, like, you will get the occasional odd man rush because Florida is so aggressive. like forechecking and sending so many guys their defensemen pinch so hard that you will be able to if you get the puck past them actually create some two on one three on twos even breakaways like we're seeing like braden schneider have a breakaway early in the series for new york in the east finals so they're going to get those opportunities and bouchard's also so good at like instinctually sensing like when the lane is there to join on that rush like we saw the two on one goal right against the against the stars where mcdiv shoots it off the pad and bouchard's able to get the rebound his ability to sort of like sense that and then get

involved is huge and I think they're going to need exactly all those things and yeah it's like a great spot for him to be in but I totally think that he's like either enabling or like allowing them to essentially just play the exact type of way that they have been which is so successful there's also like a rift almost in that or you know there's like a level of trust between the two that I think matters right like I think if McDavid low slow and available guys gets the puck high in the defensive zone and turns up ice. And another defenseman skates as aggressively toward the blue line with absolute pace as Bouchard just completely abandoning the defensive zone because there's so much faith that McDavid is going to be able to make a play.

And now he's another outlet for McDavid. You know, like how much value is there in the fact that McDavid's always going to be happy to have Bouchard doing that? Whereas if Brett Kulak did it or Philip Broberg, it's the meme where it's, you know, the person coming to the cubicle, right? And it's like, oh, you know, like that's harassment. Like Bouchard doing it great. Yes. Broberg doing it like, hey, buddy. Yeah.

You know, stay back there. Right. Chill. How much value is there in that rift, in that level of trust? For sure. Almost like, you know, QB and his favorite slot receiver. Right. Like there's something there.

And, you know, we all, again, in that situation, you debate who's greater the receiver or the quarterback. But you also know that there's chemistry. And I do think in an effort. to do what's hardest, right, which is parcel out who deserves individual credit within a free-flowing team game like hockey. I do think we sometimes underrate the amplification thing. Right. I think we did it with Chris Kunitz a decade ago. I think we did it with Alex Burroughs 15 years ago. I think we did it with Zach Hyman when he first signed in Edmonton. Yeah. I think it's happening right now, a conversation in the market that I work in with Philip Peronik and Quinn Hughes. And

And we know that Chris Kunitz isn't a superstar, but there's immense value in being a guy at such a level that he like upgrades the defensive effectiveness and can still eat playing with your superstar. For me, Bouchard, you know, I think the context of, I think the context of, you know, Bouchard's not like a play driver from the back end. It's like great. Who is? Like there's like two of them on the whole planet.

the fact that he's the guy who makes those McDavid minutes and takes them and makes them elevated. I think that's immense and alone puts him among the best defenseman on the planet. I think he is a play driver, though. Obviously, I think if you stripped him and put him in, like, I don't know, name whatever team you want, and he was just playing with, like, third liners all the time, I'm sure the results would look different. I think that's the case for pretty much every player in the world, though.

some of the stuff he does in particular you'll see and this is where Edmonton can just feel so impossible to play against is like they have a good shift in the offensive zone and then you finally get the puck out especially in the second period with a long change and you're like ah we have a moment to breathe and the puck gets to like the other blue line

and Bushard's so good at like quickly getting to it and almost like spinning around and because of that level of trust knowing where McDavid is without even like really like stopping to take stock of it and he just whips it back to him and then all of a sudden you're just getting another a rush from the Oilers, and that's devastating.

That's what the abs were like at their best with McKinnon and McCar, right? That ability to regroup quickly and just layer multiple rush attacks. And so he does that. And I think David, I'm sure, is very appreciative of the fact that how much easier his life is playing with a player like that, as opposed to all those times where you're playing with inferior defensemen and you go in the neutral zone and you're like, all right, I'm open for a rush. And then the defenseman like just goes off the glass and out and then turns it over or just turns it over up the middle. and you just never get to see the puck, right? Like he's getting so many additional opportunities to do what he does better than anyone

because of what Bouchard is able to do. And so I think all of that stuff matters. Yeah, 100%. I probably put it too harshly. I just mean that, you know, the, I think he's a play driver, but I think his results in non-McDavid minutes would be closer to like, you know, 55% as opposed to like 69. You know, like, nice.

Like we never see stuff like this, right? Yes. What you're seeing, I think, is a product of McDavid's excellence married to a guy perfectly suited. So let me put you on an unfair spot. I know we're going to go to break shortly. But let me put you unfairly on the spot and just ask you this question. If the New York Rangers and the Edmonton Oilers straight up traded Adam Fox for Evan Bouchard, who was better?

Who got better in that trade? Who got better in that trade? Man. It's probably neither. It's probably neither. I'm sure Adam Fox would enjoy his time more. Yeah, I don't know. Both guys are awesome.

That's why I get why it's such fodder for people to be like, actually, this guy is the seventh best defenseman. Like, no, he's the 14th best. And ultimately I'm like, I don't know, they're all really good. Well, like, you know, I think, for example, that Quinn Hughes's ability to drive play as, like, the engine is pretty unique. Like, I don't think any of the other elite defensemen are tasked with that the same way. but I wouldn't say like Edmonton gets better necessarily getting Hughes for Bouchard

because losing the right-handed shot like the all of the attributes that make Bouchard's so perfect to add to what McDavid does are different than what what Hughes does and that matters too so it's it's like you know it's it's a it's a tricky one to answer and more than anything all of these guys are so sick and it's just I think the beauty of that and probably to your point on that is, like, part of what makes Quinn Hughes such a system individually, like, regardless of what's around him, is because of how he's able to be puck dominant and, like, do it all himself, right? Like, he'll certainly distribute in the offensive zone and set up others, but just getting you

there, he'll kind of, he'll take on the task of, like, I'm just going to go back, spin around a couple times, make a few people miss, and we're going to go zone to zone seamlessly. Bushard's much more of a quick distributor, and that works with McDavid, because he can just quickly get him the puck across three zones. I'm sure Queenie Hughes would adjust and defer a bit more in that spot. Like all these great players are able to acclimate themselves to their environment, especially when you're like, when you get like encountered with like a force of personality or a force of skill set like

McDavid, it's like you kind of mold yourself around that as opposed to being like, actually I think we should play my game. And I think Connor should adjust to what I'm doing. Yeah, it's not like what you see in basketball when two superstars join another team. And it's like your turn my turn. Yeah. It's always Connerick-David-Schen. Yeah. And it should be.

All right, let's take our break here before we jump into other mailback questions and other topics here. And then we're going to do all that when we come back. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.O. cast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. We're back here in the Hockeyedio cast with Thomas Drans. We are having some fun here on a Friday here on the show. We've done all our previews for the Stanley Cup final now. We can just enjoy the show. Man, I know you're saying off the top that you're kind of enjoying this little reprieve here to sort of take stock.

of where we're at and enjoy the calm before the storm. I just cannot wait for these games. I was thinking about it. It's almost the perfect setup here, right? Because it's such an even series. Dom has it about 50-50. The betting line is very close. It's pretty much almost entirely home ice related, I think,

in Florida's favor slightly. Since the Christmas break, these two teams were second and third in point percentage and goal differential. Like they're so, I guess, qualified and like worthy representatives of their conferences in this final and of this stage. We're going to have Ray Ferraro on the call for the ESPN broadcast.

I mean, stylistically, all the things we've talked about in terms of the matchup are going to make for such great theater. This is just going to be an awesome series. So I can't wait for it. I'm so excited. And we should note, you and I will be doing for games one and three or one, two, and three.

We're going to be doing the show kind of right after the games. It won't be necessarily live. But as soon as the games end, we're going to start, we're going to do like a recap. episode and we're going to try to get it on the feed night of so that if you're just if you finish watching the game and you're like oh man I need a breakdown of what just happened or I just want to hear people talking about a bit more and the TV broadcast isn't necessarily doing it for you you can go on the PDOCs feed and we're going to have new episodes

for you those nights so looking forward to that all right let's take a few more mailback questions here from the PDOCs discord if you want to get involved in that in future editions pop into the discord invite link is in the show notes Jacob asks why does rnage seemingly never make any mistakes. What does he do to make him so effective? You and I talked about this a little bit. It's a tricky thing. I think it'll be easier if we had a bunch of clips and this was like a TV show and then you and I could just like play that and be like, now you can sort of see it. It's a more difficult thing to describe because it's obviously not as like physically dominant as maybe some of the other players that are so effective, especially in this series. But I think the genesis of it is he's

just always in the right place. I think yesterday you were kind of bringing up the Patrice Berger on example in relation to Barkaw, always being on the right side of the puck. Even though R&H is sort of playing the wing in this constitution on McDavid's line, he's still a natural center. And I think his understanding of that positionally means that you see when he's backtracking on a lot of these plays, he's always in the middle lane and he's always timed it perfectly so that he can cut off whatever pass you're trying to create if you're trying to switch sides in the neutral zone, right? And so there's so many times he's able to stop that and then bring it right back and they're able to attack again with McDavid.

And that's why I think he's such a good compliment with him. Yes. And why he's such a great complimentary player for regardless of who he's playing with, because he's just going to do everything to help get you the puck again. And put that in combination with his power play skill set and his scoring around the net and his ability to distribute as well. I mean, he's just like a phenomenal player. So it's not necessarily one specific thing he does, but I think it's the combination of

those things to make him so effective. So you know how we like to talk, oh, this is one of my favorite things. to talk about. I don't know if you share my enthusiasm for it. But the one of my favorite player types across the league is failed first round draft pick. Right. Right. Who, you know, usually has to change teams and then you redesign your game and then you become an elite checker. And you find yourself in a six spot on a third line that's deep in the playoffs and everyone starts talking about you again. You know, the Benoit Poolyot, the Andrew Cogliano of it all. One of my favorite player types.

One of my favorite guys to see teams gamble on is the guy who had to redesign their game. Now, usually it's like guy who couldn't make it in the top six and actually like fell out of the league and had to become a different type of defensive player. Like it's a totally different level of it. Yes. Whereas Ryan Nugent Hopkins was like the next one. Right? First overall, one of the most talented WHL players we'd ever seen to that point comes into the league, has immediate success. Like he's a 52 point.

over 62 game guy as a rookie. You know, has that big hat trick early on in his career against a very good Vancouver Canucks team at the time, like a president's trophy winning team, made an instant splash and, you know, chugged along as like a 60 point guy for, you know, like his age 18 through 22 season. That's unbelievable.

And then as the Oilers decade of darkness extended, I think it became clear that he was perhaps not an elite one season. but he never failed in the league. He was still like an excellent, from the age of 18 on, top six caliber forward. So it's almost like the highest possible level of this effect, where it's like, you know, by his fourth season, he's still in his early 20s, but now he's experienced and McDavid joins his team. And over the course of the ensuing decade, it's like, while still playing in the league and being productive, he's redesigned his game to be whatever his team needs to play winning hockey. and now he's this Jack of All Trades player who's more likely to have a highlight for a back check

than for something stunning he did as a playmaker. And that's like how do you even qualify how important that is to just be like the perfect player to stick it all together on the power play. Yeah. Right? Like just like the quiet behind the scenes guy, who makes everything better.

That's what he's become. And he's partly become it because I think he's figured out how to use the elite skills that made him the first overall pick in sort of the service of the little things. In a way we just, like, I can't even think of another guy who's had a similar career. You know what I mean? Like usually these guys. Especially, yeah, staying on the same team for that long. Staying on the same team for that long.

And being joined by elite talent like McDavid, you know, the sort of player that's so alpha that there'd never be a disagreement between you, right? Like that, that you'd just like work to try and make them successful just naturally because of who they are. I mean, it's almost like an incredible happenstance that has served to create, you know, something like the Oilers version of Draymond Green or something. Just like the guy in the trenches doing all the stuff that makes your, that elevates your stars, incredible.

Like, he's just such an incredible player to watch for, like, the elite skill and service of winning in the most nuanced possible phases of the game. It rocks. No, it really does. And he's perfect playing with McDavid. And also, it's like, both him and Hyman do all of the little stuff that it requires to blend in with a puck dominant superstar. Yeah. While also just being so immensely skilled as well. Right?

And that's the thing that I struggle with because I don't, we want to describe R&H as a role player at this point because of that, but that almost feels like it's diminishing how good he actually is, right? Because this isn't like some sort of journeyman that is like in the right spot. Like he's doing so many just like awesome things, but he's doing it in this very specific role for them. And so, yeah, he's really fun to watch. Like watching him off the puck is really good because he's just so smart.

I know this is like a belfry thing as well. He loves when, when natural centers play on the wing and then can sometimes let their the person who's occupying the center role kind of play more wing in terms of just getting out of the middle lane and kind of attacking other eyes

and also you want McDavid being able to skate wherever his heart desires or wherever there's an opening or wherever he feels like he can attack without worrying about all right I need to be back in the middle lane here and always be staying above the puck and he can do so knowing with full confidence

that RNH will just do that for him, right? And so, um, no, he's really, really good. Okay. What other questions do we have here? Okay, here's a good one from Pixies. How did Paul Maurice completely flip his narrative in the last two years? Well, success. Winning does a lot. But also, I think, I do think, I do you hear his line today, though? Do you think he's workshopping? Do you think he's like sitting at home in front of the mirror, like brushing his teeth and then he's like, like, like writing down bangers? I think he's genuinely that funny. Yeah. I just think when you're quick like that, you know what I mean?

You're just quick like that. Right. It doesn't work. If you have to sit at home and come up with your one-liners, they would all fall flat. You know what I mean? He's like looking in notes, but like before answering. You've either got it or you don't, man. And Paul Maurice has got it.

But the line today, did you see that one? No, what did he say? He was asked about taking over a 122 point team and he's like, and I got them down to 92 in my first season. Like, brilliance. So good. Yeah. I think the answer is pretty simple there. They just, they won a lot.

And I think he's also, listen, like, I was very critical of him towards the end of his time running the Jets, right? And I think there was a lot of stuff to nitpick and be like, oh, I feel like his reluctance to trust young players, like the way they're choosing a play at times, it's suboptimal. And so when he replaced Andrew Burnett in particular after that season, I like many others, I think, was like, oh, man, I don't know if that's, that's the right call. It feels like they're going to just take a bit of a step back here. And I guess they did that season from like a points perspective during the regular season at least. But yeah, what he's done this season in particular with them, I think deserves much more credit than I got, right? I think because they made the Stanley Cup final last year and because they have such big name players, right? Barkov, Kachuk, Bobrovsky and Net, Ekblad even, in terms of like league-wide recognition and name brand value,

even if it's for some of those players may not be fully deserved at this point a lot of the credits gone towards them for their success and all year even though they started without montreur and neck platform with the red whatever first 10 15 20 games i forget how long it was after their offseason surgeries they were still from day one either first or second in every single defensive metric and it wasn't because they were like just trying to like kill clock and play very conservatively it was the exact opposite they were playing so aggressive by design and it was working to suppress stuff on the other end of the ice. And so I think what he did in terms of encouraging this aggressiveness and also similarly

not having any drop off as well. Like how easy do you think it would be for a team to just take a big step back from like a motivation perspective this year after making a long run last year having all these injuries in the off season and then coming back this year for them to be like, you know what? We had a good year last year, but we're not going to play as hard as we do. did because it's really tough to sustain. And it felt like all season, even in February, on a Tuesday night of a back-to-back against Columbus, you were still getting their absolute A game. Even if it didn't result in a win, you knew it wasn't going to be because of a lack of effort. And I give credit to that to the coach, much like I do with Rod Brindamore and Carolina.

Well, and sometimes you have to use what is available to you as opposed to what's optimal. I think coaches will tell you that. And I actually wonder if the level of injury, that they dealt with coming into the season helped. You know, and it takes a good coach to convince everybody that, hey, this is like, but... That's a blessing in disguise. Yeah, but you come in in October and November and you don't have a right-handed defenseman in your lineup, period, because both Montour and Eckblatt are out for six weeks, and then you're having success, and it's like, okay, but we can't slip.

Right. You know, there's an element to which that success feels surprising, at least to the level that it was, and that almost creates its own momentum, right? that like we will win if we play like this even without those guys now imagine what we'll do when we get them let's show ourselves you know like it's it's almost like the challenges redouble upon themselves to sort of drive drive it forward as it were and and so you know i think the fact that the panthers went into this offseason and had to effectively take a zero rd approach to their team building um you know i i actually think that might be a one of the things that amplified

it because certainly, certainly like, I can tell you, among Panthers forwards and stuff, like the lack of right-handed defensemen was like something they were thinking about early in the year. Yeah. No, I think that, I mean, I think the job they did there was regardless of what you're sure to was phenomenal. And I think it's interesting as well, right? Like, I think a guy you cover closely, Rick Tockeet, is going to have to figure this out as

well because I just think it's really tough when you, so much of your game. And listen, the Panthers are so deep and so talented. so it's not like they have to do this. But it's very difficult to channel that type of effort for this long of a period of time. And without having like slip up, without having people sort of like start resenting others or like being like, listen, like I'm not going to,

I'm not going to take this from you anymore and ask for a trade or just stop playing the way they have. And there's been really none of that. And everyone just seems incredibly happy. I guess it's a chicken or the egg thing. How much of it is winning? How much are you winning because of it and how much of it is happening because you're winning.

I'm sure it's kind of intertwined. But yeah, I mean, this is quite a run there on. And he certainly, like, in my mind, rehabilitated his image as a coach quite significantly to the point where I was, like, very high on him this year and go back three, four years ago. I love making a good Paul Marie's joke in Winnipeg. Like, I just think he was not doing a good job. And then now all of a sudden, he's doing a phenomenal job. So credit to him.

Coaches sometimes get better. Totally. And especially when you see the writing on the wall, you know, stepping away. thinking about why you had to step away, thinking about what worked and what didn't. But he also had some sick Jets teams. Yeah, I mean, the one when they lost to Vegas was incredible. That team should have won the Stanley Cup.

Yeah. I honestly think if they hadn't had to play the second best team in the league that year. Yeah, that series against Nashville was perfect. And to me, still like pinnacle hockey from an aesthetic point of view. Like, when I think about what I love about hockey, that series is like top five for me in my entire lifetime. Like it was just such good hockey. Those teams were so good.

It was clearly the best and the second best team in the league that season, duking it out. I just think the Jets had nothing left when they got through. So I think there were, there have always been flashes for Maurice. I think he has an ability to elevate teams. I think he wants to play fast hockey. I think he wants to play aesthetically pleasing hockey. I don't think he'll necessarily play like that when he doesn't have the personnel. but I think given the personnel that he, you know, inherited in Florida,

I think he just completely understood the assignment. So I would say I think we got a little too low on Paul Maurice because I think Paul Maurice is pretty realistic. I think Paul Maris will adapt to what he's got. And I think he was handed the keys to something really impressive with the Panthers. And he got a little bit of luck, right? They very easily could have missed the playoffs that first season. And maybe he never even gets a shot to do.

do what he did to deliver all these one-liners well and to do what he did in the playoffs like if you I mean what we we talk a lot about the who was it buddy robinson the Brian Robinson was it really Brian Robinson oh sorry sorry I've got fantasy football brain yeah um buddy robin big hat buddy robinson well I'm like I literally had to check only because I jokingly refer to Brian robinson you keep calling Brian Robinson buddy yeah yeah um the buddy Robinson the buddy Robinson the buddy Robinson butterfly effect well just just just yeah, what a fork in the road for Maurice? Like, does he even, is he even still the coach in Florida if Chicago doesn't beat the penguins? You know, like, I think that's an absolutely fair thing to wonder about.

And yet, I do think he got enough rope for his quality to show through. But fundamentally, I think he, I think he's a really good coach and I think he always has been. I just think if you give, if you give, he's the coach you definitely want. I think when you have the talent for it. Right. And I don't know if he's the coach you necessarily want when you're trying to like eke out wins. Yes. Or like a rebuilding team or like a team on the way up.

Or even a team like a team that has to devise like a narrow tactical path to winning. Like I don't know that you want Paul Marie's doing that. But I think if you give him a loaded roster, I think he'll have them play like an uptempo style of aggressive hockey that's both detailed and allows their quality to show through. And I love that. Adili asks, is it redundant? to assess players in the playoffs when they're likely carrying an injury. I just think people sometimes get carried away with comparing players and how they're performing when we aren't aware of what they're dealing with.

I think that's fair. Very fair. I think that's fair because I think for- Sign me up for that. But here's the thing, though. I think why I'm so excited about this Stanley Cup final is that it does feel like both teams are entering at about as fully formed good health as you're going to get. Yeah.

Right? I would not assume that, though, with Edmonton's biggest stars. That's fair. But, I mean, the performance certainly has not slowed down. Yeah, I think I'm just telling you, I think after the season, we're going to find out some things about what McDavid and Trislellan have played through here that are going to up our respect quotient for. Right. That's fair. But I mean, like, they're not like, like Matthew Goodchuck last year where he got hurt and then it's like, he cannot play because his body got broken.

And so you're like, oh, man, that's, that's tough. I'm with you. I mean, in general, we probably put too much stock in the playoffs, right? Because I think one good postseason run, everyone is aware of this phenomenon of, like, getting a payday off of it and the timing that out correctly. At the same time, though, this is like the final exam, right? Like the playoffs are what you strive towards. The entire regular season is essentially preparing for it. And so with the quality of competition, you're generally facing the further you go into the playoffs, I do think it is very,

interesting to see how players stack up against each other and whether their game works or doesn't because it's just a different animal than the regular season is. And so I don't think we can necessarily just like throw it all out and be like, well, this is like a totally unrelated product. I do think there's stuff that we can learn from it certainly in terms of what applies to future seasons. But we probably do from an individual perspective, knock players too, too much or kind of sour on players who are underperforming, and then even if it doesn't come out that they had some sort of like, you know, ruptured Oregon or something, they're still like, were clearly hampered, and maybe that manifested itself in like subtle ways, but important ones nonetheless.

So I do think we have to be kind of like careful about how we're evaluating players who, like, are having off post seasons or tough series. But sometimes it's simple as just not performing as well. And then we can maybe give them too much leeway. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but I think it's an interesting thing. Yeah, I also think we need to I also think we need to account for

the extent to which you know, the samples are so small that we're just going to make mistakes evaluating players in the playoffs. You know, that's like the long and the short of it. A guy, yeah, I just think you almost, you don't want to throw it out because it matters and it's actually like

the most important time of the year. Yes. Matters maybe more than it. anything else. So you have to wait it, but I think figuring out exactly how much weight to give it is one of the toughest things in hockey, which is why we see more mistakes getting made, you know, off of this time of year, like off of what happens at this time of year, then we see almost anywhere else except for U-18 performance and draft stock. Yeah, World Juniors. Yeah, World Juniors and U-18s, but U-18s even more so in my mind.

Puna Sweet asks, are we doing our due diligence in driving the Gus Foresling for Khan-Spythe case. No. I don't think... I think I personally am. I think you need to step your game up a little bit, Tom. I don't think you've been doing nearly enough. But I've been...

I think I've been doing not only my share, but the share of a lot of other people. You've been going hard? I've been going really hard. I just put out a full mix tape of what Galsh-Forslings did in New York Rangers, and it was phenomenal. And he's been doing this all post-season. Now, we'll see what happens in this series.

As we talked about, there's going to be a lot of minutes against McDavid, and he makes amazing players look silly all the time. And so regardless of what happens, I don't think he should take away from what he did in the first three rounds. Obviously, the Panthers will need to win this series for it to even be a cons might consideration because he's not going to win it on the losing team.

But, yeah, I'm excited to see that match up. All right, one final one here. C.L. Garrett asks, can you win the cup in the modern NHL with the majority of your core in their 30s? I mean, probably not. I don't think so. Right? I just, I mean, the majority of your core is going to be too expensive in their 30s.

That's right. Yeah. I, you know, like, even this Panthers team, which is a pretty mature, you know, you've got both Barkov and Matthew Kachuk, like their highest paid star players are on third contract. So there. But even this team, you've got, you know, you're in the last year or you're going to be next year. Anyway, you're in the last year of Sam Reinhart's bridge. You know, you're going to be, next year is going to be the last year of Sam Bennett's bridge. Yeah, Verhege, Eckblad, Montour.

Eckblatt's still a second contract guy, right? That contract was widely panned, and now 7.5 is, you know, excellent. I mean, he would have gotten two and a half million more based off being the Calder winner, you know, 15 goals a game, first overall pick, right? Like he literally would have been, if he was expiring today, if he had his first three seasons today, he'd be, he'd be making nine, like he'd be making Kel McCarmonie on his second deal, and maybe beating it, frankly. So, yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't think so. I think you genuinely need to have at least a mix of younger guys and a few guys that are still on their way up.

And it's, it's not about age as much as it's about contract status and what happens to really good players as they hit their 30s, they're at maximum, um, they're at their maximum price point. Yeah. And, and, you know, I think you can have three or four of those guys, maybe if you're lucky, but I think at some point it becomes too much and just kind of weighs you down. You need some guys who are on their way up, some guys who are on bridges, some guys who are on ELCs, like you need the mix to make it all work. I also just think the physical demands in the postseason, especially as you get older, it's just like, it's just so much easier. to manage when you're in your prime.

Not that it's going to prevent you from getting hurt or, you know, just being overwhelmed. But I think it gives you a chance. Like you watch this Panthers team. And it's like, I don't know, just being a 32 year old and having to deal with like this forecheck the entire time and the pace they play out and never getting a shift off must suck. As opposed to if you're a 24 year old and you're like, all right, like, let's go. I can do this all night. And so I think that's, yeah, I think it's really tough once you get into, especially

like you can get away with it with certain parts or even key players. But I think if that becomes your overarching identity or kind of just like the commonality on your team, then it becomes like kind of impossible. Well, and like third line center, right? Third line centers are so expensive. No one has good ones, right? And then you think about this being Lundell's last year. Yeah. Right?

And just like what a massive edge. You know, Dallas made the final four in, in similar circumstances. You know, the, even the oilers have McLeod, who's 2.1 million on a bridge, right? So, I mean, that's for me where, just an example of, like, if your core consists of three, seven million dollar centermen, that to me feels like it's a very challenging way to have the depth you need to win late in the year. All right, man. Well, I think that's all for today.

This is a fun one. I'm glad we got to do one more show here before the game start. Anything you want to plug? Just the usual. Connect's talk, the athletic. I'm around. Just listen to me on the PDO cast. I'll be coming back with more appearances.

All right, man. Well, this is a blast. As I said before, get into the Discord to join us and get in questions. Maybe throughout the week, we'll have time for more mailbags, especially on days in between games. But we will also be having shows Night of Games. So stick to the feed for that. And that's all being all for today.

So have a great weekend. Enjoy the games as they start on Saturday. And we'll see you back here Saturday night with more of the HockeyPedio cast streaming. on the Sports Night Radio Network.