The Hockey PDOcast - Pastrnak's next contract and Vrana passing waivers

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Matt Porter and Ryan Hana join Dimitri in today's edition of the podcast to discuss David Pastrnak's next contract and Jakub Vrana passing through waivers. This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipoven. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dimitra Filipovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Matt Porter, Matt. Listeners can't see this, but we are on Zoom video right now, and your fleece game is off the charts. I'm also wearing what I think is one of my best fleeces.

And so it really should be a visual medium more so than just pure radio and podcast because I feel like the listeners are missing out on a totally different, dynamic to this experience. These are the type of fleeces that you would get in the gift shop of a national park, which is exactly where I got mine. They are, they look like they are from the woodlands, the natural lands.

They're beautiful pieces of clothing, I have to say. Yeah, yeah, we're looking pretty sharp, especially for the radio. All right. So we just watched the Bruins play in the Winter Classic this week. And I think right before that there was this report that came out that

kind of identified a, an 11 by 8 deal, $11 million per year, eight years term in the works for David Pasternak. Now, I listened to a 32 thoughts episode that came out as well, kind of accompanying that. And Elliot Freeman didn't necessarily shut it down, but I think he more so labeled it as a bit premature at this point. But it seems like, you know, we'll talk more about the logistics and the details of those numbers, but it doesn't seem very unreasonable. I think this is a good kind of launching pad for us to talk a bit about David Pasternak,

the season he's having and kind of what's next in terms of those contract negotiations because I don't think it's necessarily on the forefront just because the Bruins are so in it this season. They're the number one team in the league in pretty much every category. They clearly have Stanley Cup aspirations for this season. But for a player of this caliber to be approaching unrestricted free agency, it certainly is a topic that will pick up basically with each passing day as we get closer to the time he's available. Absolutely. I don't think that it is imminent just for the reason that I think everybody wants to see

where his posture not going this year. I mean, he keeps getting better. He keeps rounding out his game, continues to score at a ridiculous pace. And he continues to be, you know, to use an old baseball line, the straw that stirs the drink here. Like he is their team. So he wants to be locked in. They want him locked in. I don't see this as like a one year kind of thing because they kind of know what he is at this point.

They know where he's going. So I think they're just kind of all the sense that I get from talking to people is that they're just hammering this out as best they can as they kind of watch where this story goes for Posternak. I don't expect a contract soon. But I mean, if you're giving him $11 million tomorrow, that could look like a bit of an underpay. by the end of the season, given where the league is going, where the league expects to go with his cap, you know, that would, I mean, if he becomes the highest paid winger in the game,

I don't think anybody's going to say, oh, no, that doesn't make any sense. So for him to not commit right now, I think, you know, that's kind of what we expected. We've seen this before, obviously, with Stamcoast, you know, the summer of Stamcoast and all of that, with Philip Forsberg most recently, you know, kind of waiting it out until, you know,

really the end of the time period here before he hits free agency. I can see that happening too. But I don't get the sense that anybody's really all that stressed about it. I mean, obviously it helps that they're winning. I mean, that's really probably most of it. They are winning and they are playing so well. And he's such a big part of it. So it's been back burner.

We haven't been bothering him really a lot about it because he's been saying the same thing since training camp. I'm going to try to get some time with him here in L.A. to see if he's got anything, you know, if his thinking has changed or if there's anything fresh there, but I'm not really expecting it. I think it's just something that he's letting his reps handle and Don Sweeney handle. Okay, well, let's put the logistics of the contract conversation to the side for a little bit here and first zoom in on the player he is and the season he's having.

And he really is, I mean, you're seeing it up close on a nightly basis. He's really having the contract year of all contract years. He's on base for 55 goals, 110 points. he leads the league in shots on goal. He's about a 5-5 per game in terms of what he's putting on net. He's pacing for over 400 this season. Only Alex Ovechkin has more shot attempts than him. Here's a fun staff for you.

With him on the ice, they're a 60 plus percent goal share team again at 5-1-5, which isn't anything new for him. Like it's kind of the standard is the fourth year running. That's the case. But the reason why I do bring it up as notable is because unlike in the past, he's doing it pretty much primarily away from Bergen-Marshan, right? One adjustment they made this season to him. improve their depth and give their team a different dynamic when David Creachie came back was we're

going to split those guys up. They're still going to be united in kind of situational moments if we're pushing for a goal if the matchup calls for it, especially on the power play as well. We see those guys play off of each other. But at five on five, we're going to spread the wealth. And this season, I believe so far, he's played under 20% of his five on five minutes with Bergeron. Those numbers were much closer to pretty much half of his time in previous years. And so the fact that he's had been able to have this season without those two guys as kind of you know it's a big time differentiator for me where part of the concern used to be like oh well if prejus bursarant all of a sudden isn't around anymore in a couple years or bradmarshond isn't the player he is right now what do you have in

david pasturnack and you said at the start a really interesting thing there were like they kind of know what they have and what he's trending towards as a player i think the year he's having in this context gives you a lot more confidence moving forward and whatever that deal is going to be yeah and i think two years ago, if you ask the Bruins, you know, is, are David Pasternak and Charlie McAvoy going to be your team, you know, going forward? Are they going to be, you know, the forces around this, this whole thing that drive this whole thing? I think they would have said yes, but I think it would have come with a little bit of trepidation. You know, is David Posternak somebody you can build a franchise around?

I think he's showing yes. I think that, you know, if you're getting into David Posternock's age, you know, 30, 31, 32 seasons, like he's going to be the central figure here. There's going to be no more Krati, no more Bergeron. Marchand's going to be, you know, maybe a second or third line guy at that point, you'd think, based on agent curves.

But, I mean, he is, he is that guy. And one of the things that he's done this year by playing the way he has is brought David Krati back from Czech to the NHL seamlessly. He was so excited to play with him the way that they think the game together and kind of the little touch plays they like to make.

You know, they always seem to find each other. They loved playing together on national teams going back, you know, five or six years. And then you add Pavel Zock into the mix who loves both of their games, has always, you know, growing up watching David Kreachie, David Posternak's a year ahead of him in check. So he's looking up to him, you know, how to see you do things. So then he gets a chance to play with those guys. and he becomes the offensive player that I think everybody wanted him to be in Jersey.

I'm not, I probably shouldn't say that he's there yet, but certainly he's trending in a much better direction offensively. Yeah, there's been some missed opportunities still. Yeah, absolutely. But they're trying so much out there. I mean, that line of Zaka and Creachie and Posternak are trying these little touch plays, you know, these little kind of like they're almost like chipping it around at certain points, like thinking that the other, the other player.

will get to a puck or make a play quickly, you know, quickly, you know, with a quick move against the defender. They're allowed to try that much, obviously, because, you know, you could use them as just a scoring line and that's it. Just put them out there in purely offensive situations and nothing else because, you know, you have the Bergeron line, you know, you have Charlie Coil's line, the Taylor Hall on it, you know, to handle so much of the heavy work. It's just a great situation for them.

So, I mean, just him driving that line, I mean, he could probably do the same thing up on the, you know, up on the Bergeron line, but he doesn't have to. He can just kind of be more of a finisher on that line. But when you watch his goals, as I know, you know, we both kind of ran through his tape. Yeah, it's still that one-timer. It's still to beat him open with five feet around him and it's in the back of the net. And that's always going to be his calling card. And that makes you also think if you are going to sign him for a long-term extension,

you know, if you get eight years in that eighth year, he probably still has that hammer, you know, as we're seeing with like an Ovechkin. Yeah. Well, it's yes and no in the sense that like I totally agree with what you're saying. I think though what's remarkable, Pasternak here is first off to think that he's been in the league for almost a decade now, right? He came in. He played 46 games in the NHL as an 18 year old. He's been around for a long time.

We've seen that full progression from him. But I think it sometimes gets taken for granted or overlooked because people generally expect, you know, young, talented prospects to get better every year. and then when they don't, if they take a step back, if injuries happen, or their progression stalls for whatever reason, they're disappointed, and they're like, oh, like, where did this come from? How could this have happened? And the reality is that's probably more often the case than what we've seen with Pasternak where there's been kind of this like linear ascension where every single year

he seems to not only get more productive, but get, like the Bruins have done a good job of putting more on his plate with each passing year as well in terms of responsibility, how much, how integral he is to creating on offense for them. And also to his credit, stuff that he's clearly worked on and added to his game, right? Part of it is natural in the sense that now he's 26 years old and he's stronger and he's filled into his frame. And so you see that on and off the puck. But he's added other little details to his game as well where he's not purely just

the guy who needs to stand at that left circle and release one timers. He can do so much more and be such a valuable creator all over the ice as opposed to just being kind of this one trick. pony. Yeah, he really he really doesn't get enough credit, I think, for his playmaking, which is world class. I mean, he's set up a lot of guys this year, last year, the years before. I mean, you're right, this is probably his sixth year. I mean, if you don't count his breakout year, he scored 34 in 2017. He's a 20-year-old. Okay, that's his breakout season, quote-unquote. He's been a premier goal scorer for six years now. You know, you could argue seven. So teams are always

going to give him that respect. And that allows him to make more plays, obviously. The physicality for me is the big thing, because when you watched him back in those days, and I wasn't covering the team day-to-day in his rookie year and his second year, but you know, just watching him, even as a third, fourth-year player, he'd still get knocked down a lot in the corners.

You know, he'd still fall with the puck. There were opportunities that were dying on a stick because he couldn't, you know, stay on his skates. And now to see him throw bodies on the forecheck, you know, and finish guys or make a statement hit, you know, that kind of stuff, when your number one goal scorer is doing that, I mean, that does make a statement to your team. It does bring the team closer together.

It just does when you're that guy, you know, getting in the mix physically like that, I mean, that's going to be huge. And obviously, you know, it helps them on the walls. It helps him win battles. You know, you can't take the puck off him very easily. All of these things are driving the offense for the Bruins and for Posturenik himself. Well, I think that where you've seen that strength really manifested most is his ability to protect the puck in those tight areas, right? Like, I don't, he's slippery in a sense that like when he's, when he's dancing out there, he's able to get to wherever he wants on the ice.

And that's where you see the skills show up. But sometimes he has these plays where like the defenders kind of draped on him. And that's exactly what you're saying. Where in the past it might have been easier to take the puck off of him or just knock him down to the ice. And he does this, he has this kind of like old man pickup game already at age 26 where he's, where he like leans back a little bit and the other guy just seems to kind of just like fall off like it's not really a reverse check in the sense that it's not like um it's not as impactful where he's trying to throw the body and actually knock the guy back down but he's just

trying to keep him at a distance and it and it works beautifully it really is like that's I think that's the best way I can describe it's kind of like an old man pickup game where he's getting into low post and just uh and just like abusing them and just using his physicality in that manner as well I think I think playing with charley coil may have rubbed off on him a little bit because you see Coil, he's so good at protecting the puck, like a much, you know, a different player with just with his physicality. Charlie is one of the stronger NHLers I've seen, you know, up close. But Coil will just like, you know, throw one hand off the stick

and just like literally just shove a guy off of him. Posternak's not quite doing that. He's more using his shoulders. When you say kind of bullying through defenders, I think of the goal against the Rangers early where he doesn't, in previous years, he doesn't have the opportunity because he gets rubbed out again. against the walls, but he finds a way to duck underneath it, the check. And then he throws this absurd backhand that catches Chesterke in short side.

I mean, he's like, he's so close to the goal line when he releases it. And yet somehow from the wing, it still gets in. So stuff like that. But winning battles, I mean, it's, it's, his stick skill is so ridiculous that he's going to, he's going to fool defenders with stuff like that. But then you think about, there's another girl I was watching earlier where, um, gosh, I can't remember the team. I have it in my notes, but Marshan throws this chest-high saucer pass across the zone

for, is on an empty netter. It's against Calgary early season for an empty-net chance. I mean, he just throws it over to Posternock. It's chest-high and just such an easy catch like he's got a lacrosse stick. Just catches it, cradles it down, cuts to the middle, cuts back, tucks it in, you know, over, you know, past a sliding defender. it's like stuff like that's elite of elite in this league and when you combine you know the other stuff that he's getting you know that he's showing on the ice and putting into his game you know for me you know we want to

keep circling back to contract you know but he's he's going to be the highest paid winger in the game well maybe yeah well i mean okay so the one final i don't know i had on the playmaking chops here that also alluded to earlier that I think he's really turned into a big strength of his, especially now this season. Like you see how he, that shot of his is always going to be his bread and butter, right? Like that's going to be the calling card. That's what makes him the contract he's about to get paid.

But in terms of just turning into a full-blown dual threat weapon and being a threat everywhere on the ice, he's done such a good job of leveraging that shot, which is his biggest weapon into other stuff, right? to into kind of incorporating teammates. We've seen, I think last time you were on, we talked about Bergeron, and we've seen that set play,

they run on the power play, where he does kind of like that fake slap pass right on the tape. He's done that with Brusk as well now more recently. He's remarkably, he's got 17 primary assists, which is tied with guys like Johnny Goodro, Matt Barzell, Robert Thomas, Miko Renton, who are like the premier passers in the game, right?

To go along with the fact that he also, so it's 25 goals in 37 games or whatever. And then all of a sudden you put all that together. And it's really tough to stop him because you see him standing there and you have to respect the shot. So the goal he's clearly going to come out and play that. And then all of a sudden, if he's seeing the ice so well that he's using other teammates. And basically if you put your stick down, you can have confidence that he's going to hit

it with a bullet pass. I don't really know how you stop that. Like very few shooters of his caliber are also able to execute those passes as consistently as he has this season. Yeah. And I think he's the type of player, too, that playing in different situations with different line mates kind of opens up his mind. You know, whereas I don't think you get to this level without having that quality, you know. But when he does play with a crate, you can see how, you know, he's a little more east-west.

He's a little more drop passes, one touch, that kind of stuff. And then, you know, when he's with Bergeron and Marchand, he's kind of, you know, he's kind of finding his shooting areas a little bit more. It is funny when you think just kind of as an aside, he and Taylor Hall didn't really work out too well. You know, I didn't really see a whole lot from them together. And, you know, now you see Hall on the third line with Charlie Coyle,

you know, those guys with Trent Frederick have really kind of complimented each other. That kind of big fit. Hall, Hall is a talented player. He doesn't really have that, that higher end creativity to his game,

if you know what I mean? Like, he's much more of a north-south sort of meat and potatoes. Like, put your head down and take the puck to the net as fast as you can as opposed to like the beauty of the geometry of that perfection line where you see them moving around and hitting each other with these diagonal passes like that's not something that really Taylor Hall wants to ideally do he wants to play a much more simple game which is totally

fine and that's I think why he's had such a good time playing with with Coyle and and Frederick who also probably want to do that much more so than some of these other teammates yeah and he can and he can and he can you know much faster than they can so yeah it's it's it's a great mix in Boston. But, you know, one of the things I was thinking about was the other day Jim Montgomery was saying after their practice at Fenway Park, you know, kind of what, what does it like to be around Posternak Swagger? Somebody asked him, basically, you know, what does it like to be around a guy with, you know,

who shows up in these, you know, these different colored suits and, you know, he's got the, you know, the yellow palm glove. Like, he's always has something going on. and Montgomery was saying that he's such a creative mind on the ice, but also kind of in the way he approaches life and the way he dresses even. You know, that if you look at our confidence, you know, it comes from David, which maybe a little overstated, you know. Like the line was, you know, he helps us be who we are,

which, you know, it speaks to Posturach's importance, but it also speaks to kind of his growth as a player and coming into his own, you know, in a market that really kind of can be hard on its stars, you know, like loves, loves its teams, you know, is there's like the fan culture in Boston is great. I mean, there's nothing to be negative about at this point with really either of the winter teams, the Bruins or the Celtics. But, you know, he's really found his own here. It's hard for me to think that he would leave. I haven't seen too many people talking about that in this town, but it's, I just, I just can't see it.

Well, here's the thing. So he signed that six-year deal right off of his ELC, right? And it wound up being a great piece of business for the Bruins because they had him at, what, 6.6 or whatever, 6.67. For the last few years where he was clearly woefully underpaid as a legitimate star in this league. And now he's taking his game to an even higher level this season. And remarkably, I was looking at this, he's still at that 6.67, the highest cap figure for any Bruins forward. Yeah. But he's down to 59 in terms of NHL forwards,

in terms of his peers and who he'd measure himself up against, right? And so I don't think that that 11 by 8 that we mentioned at the top is that unreasonable. He turns 27 in May. We've seen him get better and better every single season. With that shot, as you mentioned, I think there's reason to believe that he can comfortably be a difference made it occur well into his 30s. And so, yeah, when I'm thinking of a figure,

I think, I wonder if people are going to be surprised or feel like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense when they see whatever that ultimate figure comes out as because I do think it's pretty reasonable to think that it's somewhere between that Forsberg, 8 by 8.5 and the McKinnon, 8 by 12.6, or whatever, that he signed this past summer. It's probably going to be somewhere in there

and closer to the McKinnon. I do think 11 is a pretty fair estimate, I'd say. Yeah, I do too. I was thinking 9-10 entering the season, and now I'm thinking that, you know, I don't know who to believe when it comes to cap projections and obviously the NHL's

projections have been sunnier than cloudier with where their salary cap is going. But if it's going to raise by three, four million in the next few years and that makes the 11 times 8 look a lot

better. Only one winger right now making 11, that's Panarin or more than 11, that's Panarin. But the Bruins cap, I mean, you look the next few years, you know, they have McAvoy and Linholm locked up long term. Carlo as well at a much lower number. He's 4.1. Those guys are, you know, nine and six and a half each. But they have a lot of contracts coming off the books this year.

Felino, Zaka, who I would imagine that they're going to try to get done. Felino might come back at a lower number and he's 3.8 now. Obviously, that's not going to continue as well as he's played. It's been a great, you know, bounce back season for Felino. Craig Smith, I imagine he's gone. Bergeron, it creates you're the big ones, but they're not going to be coming back. You know, if they come back, both of them, which I would imagine Bergeron would at the very least. Those aren't going to be big numbers. Frederick and Clifton are two young guys that they're going to be given big raises to.

So like it's trending in a way, and Swayman as well, I forgot he's up as well. But he hasn't exactly had, you know, the shining season that he would want, you know, to get a, you know, five million dollar extension or something like that. probably, I would imagine, come closer to three or four at this point. You can bridge that pretty easily. Definitely, as has been the trend with, you know, goalies, three, you know, three times four, three times, you know, four. Three times, you know, four point five, whatever the case may be. So it's setting up fairly well. I mean, and there's not a lot to complain about if you're Don Sweeney.

I mean, I think you just kind of, you know, know that this is your guy, this is your superstar. You absolutely have to sign him. If they don't, let's put it this way, if they let him walk. I know the Red Sox just gave Raphael Devers a one-year extension, but I think everybody expects that Devers eventually is going to price himself out of Boston, which is crazy to say when you're the Red Sox, you know, when you're taking in so, so much money,

and you made even more money over the weekend at Fenway Park, you know, with a great event in the Winter Classic, you know, losing the players that they've lost, you know, seeing championship teams dismantled, and seeing the team go in the last place. a lot of that stink, I think, transfers over to the Bruins if they lose David Posternak. So, I mean, working in this market, that's kind of what you have to think about. The Bruins don't want any part of that.

So I don't know. I'm giving you a lot of reasons why I think the Bruins will get this done. Wow. I guess they, I don't say they don't have an option because it's a two-way street, right? And ultimately, David Vastnick has to agree to whatever figure they present them with. But if you're letting him go at this point, it's like, why? What's the point of your NHL team? Right?

Like we talk for as good as they are right now. I'm like, listen, they're 29, 4 and 4. They're top five in pretty much every category across every game state. It's really interesting to think about what the next version of the Bruins is going to look like, right? What is David Pasternak signing up for if he signs that eight-year deal? Bruins for years did such a good job of kind of manufacturing this artificial glass ceiling. so to speak with Bergeron's contract, right? When it was like 6.875 where pretty much everyone they would sign would be like,

well, listen, he's our best player. So you have to take less than that. And they'd always get guys to take these very team-friendly deals. And now we saw Charlie McAvoy kind of break through that glass ceiling and signed his deal a year and a half ago. For Pasternak, I mean, that's clearly never a consideration to take a dollar figure that low at this point. But if you're him, you've been playing on this very team-friendly below-market deal for years.

this is your one opportunity to fully cash in. You're having the contract year of all contract years. Like he has about as much leverage as you can. And so for the Bruins, it's really almost like a blank check scenario where you just send over his agent a blank check. And you're like, just fill it in with whatever you want and let's get this done. And so I think that's kind of where it's trending. And as you mentioned, they're in a pretty good spot, actually,

to accommodate a salary spike that big in this particular offseason. because so much money's coming off the books. They have all these weird like $3 million deals that are coming off that aren't really necessary. Like they're nice to have. I'm sure they like having Folino for all of his leadership and he's having a bit of bounce back season and all those guys you mentioned. But in the grand scheme of things, it's like you sign Pastor Nuck to whatever dollar

figure he wants and then you figure everything else out around that and you build the team accordingly. And I think that's pretty clearly where this is trending towards. Yeah. And if there was a thought in Posternak's camp, you know, of why to maybe not max out what he could get here in Boston. I think it's that he has seen the way that the structure has been under, you know, with Patrice Bergeron and Brad Marchand kind of, you know, at reasonable deals.

Krati was for a long time, the highest paid player, you know, it's 7.25. Tuka Rask, it's 7 million. But, you know, really nothing above that. He's seen that it does work. You know, there's proof of concept there. Like he sees that, you know, okay, if I'm not an absolute. you know, max guy. Like I think back to, you know, when the Carlson and Dowdy deals and all that were signed. And, you know, if you take a little bit less, and I'm not trying to negotiate for

Don Sweeney here, but if you do take a little bit less, it does allow the team to bet on a guy like Nick Folino, you know, and carry that $3.8 million in a down year where he's really struggling. You still make the playoffs, but, you know, let him kind of work his, you know, work past his injuries and have a bounce back season. Like your team can afford to make those bets. you know and hope that they'll pay off you know around a Posterok and a Bergeron and a Martian so I think he's seen that I think he sees that it does work so I don't know about I don't know about all that I yeah I well I get what you're saying but I I just think it's such flawed logic when people say like this really really good players should take less money than

they're worth to accommodate lesser players getting paid more than their worth like that's generally how the math winds up working out, right? It's like it allows a team to to kind of take on all these luxuries that they don't necessarily need. It's like, no, I think David Passanac should look after himself in this case and the team can build around him accordingly and still be fine, I think, ultimately. Well, they're all taking less than their worth. I mean, if you look at what it is.

But I mean, I mean, does 12 make sense for Posternach? I think 11 is, I think 11 is, is fair and, and he's worth it. Yeah. And so I think, well, we'll see. But you're right, there's still a lot of games left to be played here. And they'll conceivably be playing well into the postseason. So he's got a good runaway here to create even more leverage for himself if possible, I think. All right, Matt, well, this is a blast. We, I feel like we did a pretty good job there on Bastron. I covered all the angles. I'll let you plug some stuff. You're in LA right now. You're going to be gallivanting around town after this, but let the listeners know kind of where they can check you out and what you've been working on. Yeah, I post most of my stuff on my Twitter at Maddie P-T-Y-T-Y-R-T-S. And work is in the Boston Globe at BostonGlobe.com. But again, yeah, if I'm writing anything, I'll post it on Twitter. And I'll also have probably some behind-the-scenes photos and whatnot. I think I'm the only beat writer on this trip.

So probably give you guys as much as I can from behind the scenes. I love it. All right, man. Well, this is a blast. We are going to take a break here in the show. and we're going to let you go. When we come back, we're going to have my pal Ryan Hanna on to talk about Jakubrana and in his waiver situation.

You are listening to the HockeyPedio guest on the Sports Night Radio Network. CEO cast, joined by my pal, Ryan. Ryan, what's going on then? Hey, Dimitri, how are you? I'm good. I'm excited. I've got you on here and you have a, you have somehow have a better podcast set up. I mean, you have your own show, of course.

So that answers to somehow, but you have a better podcast set up than me on my own show. So I won't take it personally though. That's great. I'm happy the audio is going to sound so good and you're so professional about this. Let's get right into it. We've got about 20 minutes here. And I want to unpack as much as. we can about the acrobana situation now i talked about it a bit at the top of my show yesterday

and it was like right after and used a drop that the red wings had placed them on waivers it was a lot of like couching statements with like well this could happen but let's see how it plays out and i in the meantime tried to message a few people and the know just to see like did you see this coming what are your thoughts on this where people prepared for this and i didn't talk to a single person that was like oh yeah like i saw this coming it seemed like it really kind of came out of left field for a lot of people, people who generally know these things ahead of time. Yeah, that's a really good point because, first of all,

there's not a lot of people in the know in the Steve Beiseman's fear who will willingly say anything to anyone. But for the few people who I did the same thing, I reached out either with connections to the Red Wings or who are just kind of aware of the goings onto the league and they were all floored. Not to say that, you know, smarter people than us wouldn't have been shocked by this,

but essentially within the Red Wings world, we knew a shoe was going to drop and we were just trying to decide whether that was going to be Alex Nadelcovic who has been having, you know, love the guy, I think he's a lot of talent, but a terrible season. Or Adam Ernie. Derek Lalone a couple days ago,

I think it was, said they're going to keep three goalies, so they're going to keep Hussaudberg and Adelkevich. And Ernie had come out of his regular lineup spot in drills and practice. So he said, oh, well, 2 p.m. is going to come and we're going to see the Adam Ernie on waivers. And pretty much all of Red Wings in the hockey world, fandom fell over when they saw that it was

Verona on waivers. Yeah, yeah. Well, we knew the roster squeeze coming, as you said. It seemed like it would make sense that it would be Ernie, who's a significantly inferior player, let's say, than Zanaka Brana. And when the news came out

that Brana was being placed on waivers, I think, you know, there was two ways to sort of look at that, right? One was, all right, what do the Red Wings know that we don't know, which wound up being, I guess ultimately true because Rana cleared today and no one wound up claiming him. Or is there something else going on in terms of, you know, Rana just asked to move.

He didn't want to be part of it was coming from his side or kind of what direction it was coming from. Or was it purely a matter of did the Red Wings just think, looking at the landscape and decide, all right, we can probably get him through waivers here without him being claimed for a variety of reasons. Do you think that was kind of a simple? Is it Occam's razor here? Whereas that's probably the most simple thing where they just.

looked around and felt like they could get away with it without anyone basically snatching them from him. Here's the thing, Dimitri, and this is a terrible answer for radio. Occam's Razor is almost always the case, especially in hockey. It's not that exciting of a sport in terms of the drama. It's not like the NBA where you have like 17 team trades going on, but the Jacob Verana's situation is different and it's difficult. There's an obvious qualifier here that has to be stated outright for those who might not know.

Jacob Vrana entered the player assistance program and has missed essentially the entire season while being in that program. And he recently was released from the program eligible to return for the Red Wings, but was not in game shape. That program deals with any number of extremely personal non-publicized issues that are, you know, about the human, about the person. So this was Jacob Verena being taken care of as a person. So it's uncomfortable to speculate beyond that. So let's deal with what we do know. Jacob Verena said he did his best to stay in shape while he was in the program. But if you are not practicing with an NHL team,

if you're not playing NHL games, you are not an NHL game shape. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are. So he practiced with the Red Wings for a while. They really tried to push basically his limits to see where he could get to and they decided he needed a conditioning stint down in Grand Rapids. Went down to Grand Rapids for three games right at the end of 2022 here. And, you know, there was a lot of room for,

improvement, to put it lightly. He himself stated that. He said, I need it to be a lot better. And I think that's what the Red Wings also saw is that they needed him to be a lot further along. They announced that they were going to extend his conditioning stint from the, you know, the three games, which only spanned a certain amount of days to the full two weeks. But it wasn't long after that where they decided to waive him. Now, Robbie Fabry was coming back for today. So he's, he's making his debut tonight. He tore his ACL last year. So this is his first time back on the ice. They needed to make the room. So if you want to put it simply, if you don't want to speculate further, it's they thought they can get him through because they know he's really

out of game shape and he has a massive contract, $5.25 million for the rest of the season and next on the cap. And with cap uncertainty, a lot of teams would would not want to take that on because you know, fair or not to say to Jacob Verona, there is a lot of uncertainty around him because, you know, speculation around why he went into the player program. They don't know if that's risk or not, and he's not in shape. So is there more there? I don't know. I don't want to outright say no.

It's just, it's so hard to speculate without having the facts, and I think so few people do here. Well, you did a good job of laying out the facts we do know. So on the one hand, I think understandably, there was a belief, a commonly held belief, that after the three games he played in the HL last week, which were the first games he'd played since October 15. And practices are relevant. You're right. Even HL games won't necessarily get you ready for the NHL,

but at least it's a bit kind of a step closer, right? The belief was that he was very far off from being ready to play at NHL speed. And I think they telegraphed that by extending his window for the conditioning assignment to another week so you could conceivably get three more games in with them and then beyond, right? And that was part of the logic, putting him through waivers,

would allow them to do so. Exactly. Yeah. Now, what's interesting is I was watching our pal Chris Johnston was on TV yesterday. And he had a quick quote in there where it was like, Branagh and people close to him believe that he's fit and ready to play now. And he wants to resume his NHL career. And that was strange to me. I don't know if it was just kind of like a comment in passing.

And it was you shouldn't necessarily extrapolate every word there to its full meaning. But that kind of runs exactly counter to what the general consensus was in the, that Brandon needs more time in the HL. And so when I saw that, I was like, wow, is there something else going on here? And that's kind of what got my wheel spinning because otherwise, everyone had been generally an agreement that

there wasn't anything else in play. It was purely a matter of getting more HL games. Yeah, and that's the difficult part about all of this, right? Is that's certainly not nothing. Like Chris Johnson, very reputable. And you have to take that statement and consider it on balance with everything else going on. But it needs to be added

to another puzzle piece, which is why was Varenna out in the first place? And, you know, it wasn't an injury. It wasn't something that could reasonably be dealt with or analyzed in the public sphere. Like the player assistance program, for good reason, is this isolated black box where nothing gets in and nothing gets out.

And that's how it should be. But it is now complicated this entire situation because I do think it's irresponsible to speculate, carry any speculation over into anything to do with the player assistance program. And, you know, it's funny that that is being said in terms of Verana, believing that he could be back or is close to game ready. But, you know, Veranda, when interviewed relative or by the Griffins or by the Red Wings media,

said that he wanted to see more from himself in his three-game performance. So the simplest way to move forward here is just to say the Red Wings, this was a complicated calculus of they wanted him in Grand Rapids for longer than the two weeks. they needed to make a roster spot anyways and they didn't want to expose Nadelcovic or Ernie to waivers and they thought Verana was a safe passage through because of his contract. In my mind

that is still not the full story. I think there's a lot of risk to putting one of the most efficient 5-1-5 goal scores in the last few seasons on waivers, period. Doesn't matter the context. But until we have any other piece of information that's, you know,

confirmable, it's really hard because there's a million different ways this could be playing out. Yeah. Well, I'd seem to kind of speculated that, you know, there was sort of a unspoken or even potentially spoken by the scenes agreement to just let him continue his recovery and progress to getting back to the NHL in peace in Grand Rapids, right? Like not having any distraction change. Just letting him play there for as long as he needs to to get right physically. And I think that added element here we should say is it seems like around the league no one really wants to mess with Steve Eisenman. Right? Like if you look at it,

Like there's an actual sort of tangible component we can look at, which is the financial side of things, right? So he's got the $5.25 million cap hit, which we know is prohibitive enough to prevent teams that on balance would otherwise be interested in adding a score of his caliber, even with the risk involved in terms of the uncertainty and not knowing how ready he is to play when he will be able to play, that would have jumped at this opportunity simply could not fit $5.25 million

without making any sort of other meaningful accompanying moves, right? not to mention the 5.75 million he makes in real salary next year. There's four teams, according to Cap Friendly, that could have done so. One of those teams was the Anaheim Ducks. Yep. Aberbeak, obviously, was not going to do that, right? So we could kind of disqualify them. The others were the Sabres, Coyotes, and Blackhawks.

And for me, I don't necessarily think, like, I love Jacob Rana as a player and a talent and a contributor more than probably any one. one in the world, right? Like, I've been talking him up for years now saying he has praises. I don't think there's many, many players in the league that could come in and single-handedly improve a team's outlook regardless. So for tanking teams, that wasn't really a concern for me of like, oh, we're trying to lose games. We can't afford to bring in Yenacabrena because even if he scores goals and plays exciting hockey, you're still probably going to wind up losing because those teams are really bad for a reason. So that wasn't really prohibitive for me. So that's why I was

a bit surprised here that some of those rebuilding teams didn't jump at the opportunity. to add not only an exciting player, but someone who you could conceivably give two months to get ready, show that he can play at the NHL level again, and then potentially retain the salary and trade him down the road. If you decide, you don't want to keep him long term because you are rebuilding for a pretty hefty package of assets, I'd imagine, right? Like in an ideal world, if Jack Brando was playing to his full capability at 50% retained, that's like multiple, pretty relevant draft picks you're getting back in return for him, I think. Yeah, exactly. you stated something there that might have some listeners shaking their head,

but it was completely right, which is that there is kind of an unspoken agreement at points based on different rules in the league amongst the GMs. One of them being, you know, restricted free agents. You don't see a lot of offer sheets because it's seen as, you know, a cheap shot from GM to GM. They don't love it for that reason. And certain situations, waivers like this, it does come up.

whether you like it or not, that's how the NHL operates. And I think there are two contributing factors to this that could be at play to different degrees. One, like you said, is the contract, no matter what the contract is going to be prohibitive for most teams. And I'm glad you brought up Pat Burbik, because for those who don't know, he was assistant GM under Steve Isman up until last season. So they have a good connection there. And the other side of it is what you've alluded to, which is, you know, Jacob Verena just exescent. this program. The guy still needs to have to get back into shape and he is in a

precarious situation personally where they have to look after and he has to look after Jacob Vranna of the person. So we don't know that this happened. I know a lot of people have implied it. That's what we're talking about here but please know that this is just conjecture but yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to think

that, you know, Eisenman and the Red Wings brass said to any of the teams that were maybe looking at Vranna, they went to them and said, look, this guy just needs a break. We wouldn't be waving him otherwise. So don't consider this a normal wave, like, let him through because he needs to, he just needs time to get himself together.

This is more than just hockey. So, yeah, that's, that's perfectly plausible. Which is, yes, it is. And I don't, I don't mean to sound like kind of callous in viewing this purely as like a, what can Jack Abranda can contribute to you on the ice, right? Because of course, like, we all want him to be healthy. We want him to be in a good place personally. That's all the matters here, right?

he's still a very young person, very young player. He's 26 years old. He turns 27 in February. I will say, I think there's equal part. It's funny, like seeing the reaction when he clear it, right? I think there's a general sigh of relief for Red Wings fans that they were able to basically get away with this, that they didn't lose him for nothing. And there was puzzlement and frustration from fans of pretty much 31 other fan bases that were like, why did this just happen? Why didn't we keep him?

which is what kind of what we're trying to sort through here. I will still say, though, I'm leaving the door open that this isn't the end of this story, right? Like, if anything, the fact that he passed through waivers now and is able to play in Grand Rapids conceivably to get right physically opens a door as well for future moves down the line. If there is a fresh start needed, the Red Wings can probably actually facilitate many more trades now because they're able to take on other money in return in a trade

or potentially be the team that's retaining up to 50%. of his contract the way a team that would have picked him up just for the purposes of trade would have done so, right? So this isn't like the end of this story by any means. I just wanted to leave that as a potential scenario as well. And we shouldn't, not to take away the relief from Red Wings fans, because it's certainly they should be happy with this news, but there's still more to it, I think. Yeah, no, you're exactly right, Dimitri, because at the end of the day, the Red Wings decided to waive Jacob Vrenna over Adam Ernie. There's important context to consider, and that's what we've been talking about for the last, you know, 15 minutes here, but you boil it down to

that fact. That's big news. That's not nothing. So you're completely right in that the story is not over and it doesn't have to end dramatically. It could end with just Jacob Vrenna needing more time and eventually coming back and having a really great rush of the season with the Red Wings, but then there's still the question of what is his future beyond the season after. It does open up a lot more doors. If all things go well, it does open up a lot more doors still where Jacob Vrana might not be part of the long-term future in Detroit. So uncomfortable. It might not be what Red Wings fans want to hear, but it's the honest analysis of this, which is that they chose to waive Jacob Vrenna. They could have waived a player

who was, you know, lesser in skill, but much more available to the team and one that they could trust on the ice right now more. So it's, this is a big hurdle to clear in terms of having that side of relief for Red Wings fans, but the story's certainly not over. Okay, well, let's talk about Renaud. Let's talk about the fun stuff. Him as a player, because I love him so much as a talent. And I think this is like a very important piece of this as well in terms of what he can contribute when he comes back to the Red Wings hopefully. Because we'll give him stats. The last three years prior to this one, he's tied for 18th most five-on-five goals with Timo Meyer.

He played 56 fewer games in that time than Timel Meyer on a permanent basis. The only player that has been scoring more goal, five-on-five goals more frequently than him is Austin Matthews. In his first two seasons with the Detroit Red Wings, the only players on the team that scored more goals than him were Dylan Larkin, Tyler Routousy, Robbie Fabry, and Lucas Raymond. And you're probably listening to him wondering, well, what's the big deal about the fifth leading scorer on a bad team? Well, he played 37 of 127 games in that time

and still managed to be one of the most dominant offensive players on the team. When you watch him play, you've got to see him now for 37 games in a Red Wings uniform, one of the purest offensive weapons in the league, right? just like the combination of being a one-man fast break while also having this release where he can just on a whim basically just beat a goalie cleanly from anywhere. There's very few players in the league that have those two skills at the same time. Generally, it's kind of one or the other. And the fact that he can combine both makes him such a lethal goal scorer.

And that's why I think people around the league were surprised that the Red Wings were willing to potentially lose them for nothing and why fans of other teams are upset that their team didn't claim to Jack around it here because there's very few players who have the game-breaking offensive ability that he does when he's right and when generally when you have those guys you do everything in your power to make sure you keep them for as long as you can yeah folks might have been confused by by the reaction from redwin's fans but you're exactly right this guy has come in and played like a court of the games because he had uh significant injury issues almost immediately has missed so much hockey and and a reasonable person might say well why is it so

such a big deal that someone who has barely played for the Red Wings this season got waived. It's for the reasons you just stated. His release, his ability to just create a play out of nothing, change the game, especially for an offense that is sometimes suffering this season with the Red Wings like that is just those aren't a diamond dozen.

It's really hard to find guys who score as efficiently as that. And I don't want to say the Red Wings gave up nothing to get him from Washington, but they, you know, in a world where Jacob Vrona has played every game that he could possibly play, that was a steal by Steve Beiseman. So, the amount of, it's not easy to find those scores

and it's not easy to find them for cheap and the Red Wing somehow managed to do it. Not only is he have a wicked shot, not only does he have a chance, has an opportunity, or it gives himself the opportunity to change the game or change the play on any given shift, he elevates the players around him.

You know, he obviously meshed well with one of Detroit's best players in Dylan Larkin. That's no surprise. He really kind of elevated the players on any line he was on. Hell, the best version of Philips Zedina that we've seen, probably in his NHL career was playing on a line

on a very limited basis who was only towards the end of a season with Jacob Verona. And, you know, Verona unlocked something in Zadina where you're like, oh my goodness, this guy can elevate really anyone around him.

That's hard to do from the wing. You can drive a line from the wing and that's one thing. But to drive a line and really elevate the other wing as well and make that much of an impact for a player who's really struggled in the league like Phillips Zedina has,

that's complicated. Like that's a really difficult thing for GMs and coaches to find it. And that's the kind of special offense. talent that Jacob Verona is. Yeah. All right. Well, that's well said, man.

Ryan, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to chat and hopefully we helped make sense of the situation for people because I had a lot of people messaging me being like, can you please talk about Yakubrana on the podcast because we know how much you love him and we're kind of just perplexed by this entire situation. So there's obviously still a lot of moving parts and a lot of unknown, but hopefully it's becoming a bit clearer. And hopefully we see Jakubrana continue his recovery and make it back on an NHLI surface and

Dewey does best, which is score beautiful goals and excite us, and that'll be awesome, right? I think that's what pretty much everyone is hoping for. We'll all be better for it, definitely. All right, man, quickly plug some stuff. Where can people check you out and where can they hear the sweet dulse of tones of the podcast equipment that you're providing here? Yeah, definitely. So I am one of three on the winged wheel podcast.

We talk about the Detroit Red Wings, the NHL and the world of hockey. On Twitter, we're at Winged Wheel Podcast on any socials. Go to Winged Wheel Podcast.com. you can find us wherever you hear your podcasts on YouTube as well. Just look up the show. I'm sure you'll find us. And it's been a pleasure, Dimitri. Always excited to talk to you and hope to have you on WWP soon.

I love that. All right, man. Be well. Thank you to everyone for listening to the HockeyPedio cast here on the Sportsnet Radio Network.