The Hockey PDOcast - Reality of What VGK Have Been vs. Idea of What They Could Be

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Jesse Granger to talk about the Vegas Golden Knights, their series of moves at the deadline, and the dichotomy between the reality of how they've been playing recently vs. the idea of what they could eventually be in the postseason. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedio cast. My name is Dmitri Filippovich, and joining me is my good buddy, Jesse Granger. Jesse, what's going on, man? Not much, man. It's been a fun in HL season, winding down. We're almost down to single digit games left.

I didn't realize that one of the players said that the other day. And I was like, oh, my gosh, they caught me off guard. But yeah, it's been pretty good. Happy to be on with you, man. Yeah, I had that realization as well when I noticed that, the Canucks play their 70th game last night and when we're getting into the 70s now all of a sudden I'm like all right uh quick math here yeah we're getting there we're getting there only 10 or so games left and uh it'll be the playoffs before we know it but this is a fun period of the schedule as well right

because we're starting to see the fits for for teams with their acquisitions from the deadline obviously we're going to be talking about Vegas here today a team you cover and we haven't actually gotten to see the biggest name of the bunch of they acquired yet on the on the ice with this team but we have seen Noah Haniffin play for them. We've seen Anthony Manta and we've seen them try to kind of incorporate those guys as well. And so we're going to do a Golden Knights deep dive here and I wanted to have you

on because I think this is developing into and it already has developed but as it's playing out one of the most fascinating situations in the league in my opinion where I'm not sure if you agree but it feels like there's this massive dichotomy right now between the way the Golden Knights have

looked on the ice for a large portion of time. now. Certainly it's been a bit more improved here. We're going to get into all of those details, but how they've looked and how they've performed on the ice versus the way they seem to be regarded by the rest of the league in particular, right? What they represent as a defending champion, this kind of looming ever-present specter of what they could be in the postseason at full health based on all the personnel they have on paper. And so it's always a tricky balance to to try to figure out as an analyst, right? Because on the one hand, I totally understand all of that.

And it makes sense that come the postseason, this could be a very nightmare situation for a top seat to have to face. On the other hand, we kind of have to go with what we're seeing. And we're coming up on like, what, 60 games now of the Golden Knights essentially being a 500 team when you account for OT losses as losing games. And so it's interesting because you wouldn't know it based on the conversation about what a juggernaut power, house team they've sort of accumulated here along the way. Yeah, it is. It's interesting because they had that 11-0-1 or 10-0-1 start, whatever it was.

It was like the best start for a defending champ ever. And if you take that away, they wouldn't be near the playoff race because they haven't had a very good record since then. It's not a month or two. It's been a very long time that this team hasn't played at its best consistent. and I think there are a lot of reasons for it, but it reminds me a lot of the year, two years ago when they missed the playoffs,

Pete DeBoers last year as coach here in Vegas. And the reason it reminds me of that, obviously there have been a lot of injuries, but I remember that year about this time they were battling for the playoffs. They were in a worse position than they are right now. But Pete kept saying, we've had all these injuries and now we're kind of getting health. healthy, but the problem is we're almost in like beginning of the season form because we're trying

to figure out how to play with each other and we've added some guys and we've taken guys out. And we're still trying to find our game. And then we're running into these teams that have been playing together for months and they're at their peak form. And even if we may be a better team, more talented team than them, we're not better than them right now because we don't have the chemistry that they have. And Cassidy said something similar a couple weeks ago. And it's kind of played out that way. And I don't think this team's going to miss the playoffs. But if they do, I think it's, that's the biggest reason is the injury is okay, whatever. But

then they've gotten healthy and they have enough talent to win right now. It's just they aren't playing, they aren't clicking on all cylinders the way a lot of other teams that are chasing them in the playoffs are. Yeah, especially around the March 8th deadline, like right after the hurdle trade. I remember I did my recap extravagance after the deadline. And I was sort of noting about how they were suddenly in a very precarious position at the time since they won a couple games. And after last night's win against Seattle, I think Dom has them at around 89%

playoff probability. They're four points up on St. Louis with a game in hand. They're five points up on Minnesota with a game in hand. They play both those teams next week. I think they have a second head-to-head-to-head versus Minnesota. later in April as well. But they're also two points back of LA for third in the Pacific, right? And so these final, whatever, 10, 15 games are going to determine a lot there.

Their footing is much, I think, more solid and safer now than I might have been a couple weeks ago. But yeah, just trying to sort of figure out what they are right now on ice and the way they're playing is an interesting exercise. And that's hopefully we're going to do today because I was sort of lamenting to you before we went on the air. And I'm certainly guilty of this myself because thinking back to that deadline podcast I just referenced, the first 30 minutes or so were purely like business side of things and how could you

not? Because that was sort of the main principle of what was happening and lost in the process has been actually just talking about what we're seeing on the ice. So hopefully we're going to change that a little bit here. Let's start with the good. I think you noted this last night on Twitter and I completely agree in watching them the past couple games in particular. The defensive form that this team became known for last season, particularly in the playoffs, has really returned. And that's a massive development after I thought a really sloppy stretch where, what, they gave up seven to the Leafs in one game, they gave up seven to Buffalo, six to Columbus. I had them down for, there was that seven game period between Stone's injury and Eichols Return, where they were pretty much bottom five in shots, expected goals against high danger chances allowed on a permanent basis in that time. Now, since then, in the seven games, since Eichols returned, at 5-15, they're giving up the second few of shots.

the fewest expected goals against and the few as high danger chances against. Now, I think that's buoyed a little bit by the fact that they got to play the Cracken twice in that period of time and watching them try to generate offense now without Vince done is a pretty hopeless exercise. But nonetheless, games against the Devils there, the game against the Lightning, they really held those teams in check at 5-1-5. And we're starting to see sort of at least that form that we've become accustomed to show up again. And I think that's massive for this team as it tries to sort of figure out what it's

going to be in this new, new shape they've taken with all these new players. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's comforting and confidence building would be kind of how I describe it, just because, like you said, this is what won them the cup, this type of play, the strong defense.

There have been points throughout this season where, like, yes, they haven't been consistently good all season, but they've obviously played good for pockets because they wouldn't be in a playoff position if they hadn't. But to me, those pockets, they never looked like the team that won last year. They would like they had a stretch there were.

They were just outscoring their problems. They would have a bunch of turnovers and the goalie wasn't great. But that's okay because they scored six because this team's ridiculous when you give them space and transition. They execute well. They score goals. Now these and even the loss to Tampa to me, look, I'm a goalie guy. It takes a lot for me to blame the goalie.

That loss was on. Aiden Hill. I think Aden Hill would say that he really struggled. He let a couple in that he absolutely shouldn't have. To me, they defended Tampa about as well as you can defend that team. So I, even though that was a loss, I look at that in a very positive light. So to me, they shut down New Jersey. They shut down Tampa for the most part. And then last night against Seattle was a defensive clinic. And it's not just that they're winning or that they're playing better. It's that they're playing like we expected them to play. And this defense that really led them last year, And when I see defense, it's not just the six defensemen.

To me, the Golden Knights have some of the best defensive forwards and that back pressure. And to me, that's the biggest key is to everything, is how well defensively the forwards play. And they've looked a lot better these last couple games. Their back pressure has been much better. That then in turn leads to better gaps for the defensemen, less room in the neutral zone, and better defensive play overall. So I think that these last few games have been very, very good for the Golden Knights psyche in terms of trying to like feel like they're.

back, get their confidence back. Will it lead to it? They still didn't execute very well offensively last night against Seattle. There's still plenty of, like this team is not clicking right now. They just are starting to look a little bit more like themselves. Yeah, that game against Tampa, despite the goals against, and that's going to happen when, you know, you could hold them in check and then Kutrov just makes a player or two, and it turns nothing into something, but held them to 16 shots and two high-dangered attempts in nearly 50 minutes of

five-on-five time, pretty much same numbers against the devils as well. So yeah, you're definitely starting to see that. And for the year, despite that stretch that I referenced earlier, sport logic still has them in that very, that trend that we sort of identified last year and I think has become a big topic of conversation for everyone around the league in terms of the changes they made under Bruce Cassidy defensively and what they're trying to accomplish, right? Where they're giving up their 25th in attempts allowed, their 20th in ozone time allowed. their first in inner slot shots allowed though.

And so that's exactly the way they want to play. I'm curious for your take because, you know, Noah Hanofin was having a really good year in Calgary prior to the trade and his 5-1-5 metrics look phenomenal in the first seven games he's played for Vegas. I imagine for a player like him, not that he's shown it, but this must be a massive adjustment, right? Because going from the way Calgary was playing to the way now Bruce Cassidy wants this team to play, it's such a, it's such a huge.

sort of structure in that sense where it's so defined now and when they're at their best, it's so visible what they're trying to accomplish. He clearly has the skill set to play that way, right, with his size and with his smarts and all of that, but still trying to kind of pick this up on the fly and become part of that, especially in such a big role in terms of the ice time he's eating up. That must be kind of a separate challenge in and of itself. Yeah, it's interesting. I had a good conversation with Noah last week about this.

And he kind of surprised me by saying that the systems are incredibly similar between the way Calgary defended this year. He said he said in the past Calgary defended a lot more man on man. But this year specifically they were playing a lot of zone. And not the exact zone that Vegas is playing with kind of the layered. And he was saying that you don't, you have to resist the urge to chase a guy a little bit more. You want to stay in your position around the net. You don't chase guys around too much. You want to stay in position.

but he said they're very similar. He told me the hardest part about the adjustment isn't the system itself. It's just learning the tendencies of the guys. Like when you're breaking out, you want to know which forwards kind of want it on their forehand, which ones kind of turn to their backhand, which guys go up the wall, which guys, just tiny little differences that for a player of that level, once you get used to everyone's tendencies, it's like he is such a, he's a breakout machine. I mean, the puck gets on that guy's stick.

It's out of the zone. It's almost impossible to forecheck the guy. But that's when he's at his best. best. And when he's clicking, he's not having to think. So far, he's had to think a little bit. He's, he's adjusting to new teammates for the first time in a very long time. Um, so I think there's definitely some room for growth. He has played very well. Like you mentioned, his numbers are good. And not only as he come in and like you, you put him his first few games, he's on the top pair with Alex Petrangelo, it's pretty easy to play hockey with Alex Petrangelo. Like, yes, you're getting top

matchups and you're going to be playing 25, 27 minutes a night. But having that guy over there, like he makes it pretty easy. But then these last couple games, Petrangelo's been out with an illness. And Hanifin's taken that top pair. And he's playing with Nick Haig who can play top minutes, but it's definitely above his level. Like Nick Haig is punching above his weight to play on the top pair. So now you're kind of having to be the guy. And Hanofin has done that well. I think he's he's he is elevated his game and really kind of taken on the lead role on that top pair. He's just so good at hockey. I mean, there's no weakness in his game. I don't think he's elite at really anything,

but there's nothing that he can't do really well. So he's been a good fit here. I think he still has some room to get better, but that acquisition has definitely has worked so far. Well, in front of the podcast, Sean Shapiro, had a really interesting piece on his substack today about Vegas's Zone D. And in particular sort of the details, I guess,

of like they lead the league in shop blocking. And that's by design, right, where we've spoken about that a bunch, but because of the zone D, they play essentially, they confront a lot as opposed to sort of worrying about boxing out and, and sort of tying guys up and playing from behind. And in part, I think that really speeds them up as well offensively in feeding the transition game, right? Because all of a sudden, those block shots lead in opportunities to get out and attack. And so all of that kind of ties together. And I've been thinking about that a lot because one of my concerns about this team, and we're going to talk a little bit

about their offense here as well. And maybe one of the things that hasn't been quite as good lately is the pace this team plays at. Because despite everything we talk about with like the size and sort of this like basketball team, they've essentially assembled right with everyone just being incredibly tall and massive. At their best, they're, there's such a well-oiled machine in terms of the way they move. And that's not necessarily like they have good skaters and certainly a Jack Eichel or a Shaytheat or can certainly skate with the best of them.

But what makes them look even faster than they necessarily. are just purely with their foot speed is that ability to essentially like turn um loose pucks or kind of 50 50 plays into advantageous opportunities to transition and move downhill and then all of a sudden it's like that snowball effect where you've got this massive individual just skating fast downhill and he's going to just look faster than he's actually moving and that's kind of what they accomplish and that's when they're at their best I don't think they've had as many opportunities to do so I'm not sure how much of that you would attribute it just to, you know, the reality of not having Mark Stone around because despite the fact that he's their slowest skater, he also speeds them up

the most, I think, because he's so good at turning those turnovers and pucks off the wall into odd man rush is going the other way for his teammates. And without having that, all of a sudden stuff kind of bogs down a little bit offensively. But the pace is one of my still lingering concerns despite all of this, right? I can't shake that game that they played kind of at the start of this stretch at home against Vancouver where I think it was Noah Hannifin's first game and Anthony Manta. And so it makes sense. They're kind of trying to figure out how everything's going to work and it's not a finished product by any means. But just watching what Vancouver did to them in that game where they just took away all their space. They constantly attack them with their forecheck and their pressure

in the neutral zone. And it looked like they were skating in mud. And that was a visual that I haven't really seen too much from from Vegas over the past couple years. And that's something that I've kind of got in the back of my mind when I keep hearing people talk about how Vegas is going to be such a nightmare for everyone and how they're so difficult to match up with. And then I watch that game and I'm like, well, that's kind of on tape there now. It's obviously easier than done accomplishing that. And we know the Vancouver under Rick Tocke it, uh, in terms of that like competitiveness and aggression is very unique in that sense. But it's also, I think exactly how you have to play this team. And that's kind of one of my concerns about them moving forward. Yeah, for sure.

Sure. I think part of the reason Vegas, like you said, they turn defense into offense really quickly. And Mark Stone's a big part of that. But I also think they just have, they just have such a good lineup of centers. And that's the center's job to transport the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. And Jack Eichel does it as well as pretty much anyone. William Carlson, excellent skater, great defensively, supports the puck incredibly well. So he's always giving his defenseman an option to break out. And then once he has it on his stick, he moves it. To me, them looking slow, I think Ikel not being there was obviously a huge issue. He is the most electric player on this team. He is the guy that when you watch the game and it's like, oh, my God, look at how fast this team is up the ice. He's the guy. When you're missing him, that obviously hurts.

And then when he came back, he didn't look explosive. Like, that's, I don't know how else to describe it other than that. Like, he just looked like a guy out there. And Jack Eichel isn't just a guy out there. He is unreal with the way he. he like his first couple strides. I don't think he has the same top speed that like McKinnon or those guys do, but his first couple strides are unbelievable.

And he didn't really have that when he first came back. We're starting to see it. I still don't think he's quite there, but we're starting to see him look a little bit more like that. So that'll help. But then also Chandler Stevenson is another elite center on this team or very strong center on this team. And he's probably the fastest skater on the team in terms of just pure foot speed.

He has not been very good this year. And I don't know if it's the contract. year. I don't know what it is that is holding him back. He just has not looked the same as he did the last two years. And that hurts them. You mentioned Mark Stone. He's kind of glued to Mark Stone's hip since he got to Vegas and not having Mark Stone hurts because you don't have a guy feeding you pucks on the tape in stride up the up the ice. So now you're kind of having to create those plays yourself a little bit more. And he hasn't been as good at that. So I think the combination of Eichel not being there and then not being quite himself and Chandler

Stevenson not being as fast through the neutral zone as we're used to seeing kind of just leads to everything else because to me the Golden Knights wingers are not really all that fast. William Carrier's got some speed but he doesn't do a lot with the puck he's more of just like chasing down the forecheck and getting puck's deep and trying to hurt people because that's what he does. He's a little wrecking ball. But you look at their other wingers and they're kind of they're either shooters like Jonathan Marsh or so or they're big heavy players like Ivan Barbashev, who aren't really the fastest guy. So to me, the center are the ones that fuel the transition speed for this team. Carlson's been good all year. He's

probably been their most consistent forward all season, but Stevenson hasn't been as good and Ikel's been banged up. So to me that if those things fall into place, suddenly you have a team that can make a deep playoff run. If they don't, if Ikel doesn't get back to peak Eichl and Chandler Stevenson doesn't get back to doing, I don't think he needs to be elite like he was with Mark Stone, but he needs to be better than he has been in order for them to make a deep playoff run. Yeah, not that he would ever admit as much, but I would love to have a beer with Chandler Stevenson right now and off the record hear his thoughts on the Tomash Hurtle trade because while I think it certainly helps them in terms of try to repeat as champions, assuming

hurdle can come back on the ice, they make the playoffs and all of that. Not that it necessarily I mean, he probably would have entered the UFA market anyways, right, just because he was due for a big pay raise. And I think Vegas is always exploring ways to improve their team. But a lot of their upgrades in that sense that we've sort of praised them for, you know, like turning H. Schmidt into Alex Petrangelo and kind of stuff like that has happened in the offseason where there's a bit less awkwardness in that regard where your replacement isn't necessarily coming into the room. and then you're playing with them in this time in between, right? I guess we saw it a little bit with Barbershev's acquisition last year and then him essentially being the Riley Smith replacement. But that was a different circumstance.

In this sense, it's like whatever doubt there might have been or whatever possibility that would have lingered for Chandler Stevenson to stay in Vegas beyond this season, I think this trade essentially just close that door about as emphatically as you can this way. And now he's still obviously a competitor and he's trying to put as much on tape as he can for whatever his next team's going to be. But man, that must be very awkward where you sort of, this is part of the

business that we talk about and kind of one of those things where it becomes a little tricky in this pursuit of always improving your team. What happens is the casualties of guys who have to go out the door to accommodate that. And this is one of those situations kind of playing out in real time. Yeah, 100%. I totally

agree. I mean, this team, they're loaded with four centers with Eichael Carlson, Stevenson and Waw. And you add a really, really good It's clearly going to play in the middle and he makes a bunch of money. And you've got one that's a UFA and Stevenson. And like I agree with you. I think it was going to be very tough for them to keep him,

especially with Jonathan Marsh and so also being a UFA this offseason. I'm not even sure if they can keep him. But with the acquisition, it's of Toma Churdle. It's going to be pretty much impossible to keep Taylor Stevenson, I think. So yes, this is probably going to be his last room with him. But the thing is, I wouldn't blame that on his play because. He's been struggling all year. He definitely has not looked himself for pretty much the entire season.

And they've even, they've even played with him like playing on the wing lately. They've kind of messed with that idea just because they're kind of preparing for when hurdle does play. They're going to have to move one of these centers to the wing. And I think Stevenson is the most likely candidate. So, yeah, we'll see if he can, if he can figure it out. It's, it's definitely an interesting one because this guy played here in, like he came over

from Washington. He was a fourth liner. Nobody really thought much of him. And then he breaks out. and he's this like point per game center. He's scoring all these goals. His points are incredible. And he's been underpaid for like the last three, four years.

And everyone's like, oh, my gosh, what a deal. They're only paying Stevenson X amount. And now this year, it's finally his chance to get paid. And he just hasn't looked like the same guy these last two years. So very interesting situation. Good player, good teammate. We'll see if he can turn things around and play to his potential down the stretch. I think you were being a bit.

too harsh there on Eichel though because while I'm with you like the standard is so high especially like the way he was playing last postseason and the way he was playing before he got hurt right like he was just flying around at sort of a warp speed and was establishing like a whole new baseline of what we should expect from him I think especially lately the past couple games he's looked a lot more like that like that game last night against Seattle I thought he was all over it and in particular what's interesting to me is how kind of by necessity and I think also by the fact that he's probably got pretty fresh legs because he was out for a while and he's playing well and they're just sort of kind of looking for any source of offense they can generate and

he's their likeliest path towards that like he played 24-03 last night against the crack and we've seen him I mean he's up around 22 per game since returning and that's like right up there with theater and hanafin amongst the team leaders which is very rare for a forward of any kind to be their team leader in ice time but that's what he's been and he's got the three goals six assists 36 shots on goal. And I just think like watching him sort of assert himself physically, it's, it's, it's bringing back a lot of those memories of what he was prior to the injury. And so I think that's very encouraging, certainly.

But the fact that that you clearly feel like there's still even more there to channel is obviously very encouraging for both him and the Golden Knights that, you know, he could be their most likely path, I guess, towards getting back to the offensive track that they want to be on. Yeah, and I think like numbers wise, he's been good since he came back. He's had a bunch of assists. Marsha's so scores two goals a night, it seems like, lately. So, and pretty much every time Marshalls so scores a goal, as we saw in the playoffs,

if Marshalls so scores a goal, there's a pretty good chance it came off Vical stick right before it. That's pretty much the case every single time. So the numbers have been good. I just think visually he just doesn't look quite as explosive as he was. But in terms of the ice time, a big part of that is the dude is their special. specialty like I don't know if there's a player playing a higher percentage of a team special teams minutes than Ikel is for the golden ice right now. He's their number one penalty killer. So he usually gets two shifts in each penalty kill. Him and William Carlson will start the kill.

They'll get this puck out of the zone change. And then the very next change they're right back on the ice playing again. So they usually get two PK shifts per penalty kill. And then on the power play, not only is Ikel on the number one power play unit, but lately he hasn't even been coming off when the units change. He just stays out there. Like he's, He's had multiple minute 56 long shifts on the power play in these last few games. He's basically out there for the entire power play. So that's going to add up to a lot of minutes, especially like last night they had four power plays.

A big reason his minutes are so high is he's just, when we're killing or on the power play, you're out there the whole time, Jack. So good luck. Well, speaking of that offense, on the one hand, like if you just store purely by goals in this stretch, it's like, all right, they're kind of middle of pack. it's fine. It's not a big deal. But just like even the Tampa Bay game, I was sort of rewatching it this morning in preparation for this. And like five minutes into the third period, shots on goal in that game were like 15 to 11 or 15 to 12 or something and like nothing was really happening. And then a

bunch of stuff happened in a row. And it feels like that's sort of been a common theme here as well, where if you remove the empty netters to seal these games and then a couple of these flurries, like the game in Seattle where they came back and Marshalls will score that late goal and then they win in overtime or even last night where they scored the late one and then another empty netter there's been very like there's been long stretches where not that much is happening and I'm I'm curious like do you think that Bruce Cassidy is viewing that as ultimately a positive thing in terms of like all right we're not at sort of our full form here in full health the fact that we're able to play these games against you know relatively quality competition and just

hang on and be this good defensively is actually a good thing? Or do you think it's kind of concerning that we're not able to actually assert ourselves that much offensively either and we need to be better in that regard? Yeah, it's funny you ask Cassidy what Cassidy's thoughts are because he literally answered that question last night after the game. Oh, really? He said, yeah, I think his exact words were like, we're not executing offensively at the, like at the level that we can.

This, I mentioned it earlier. This team, when they're playing well, their execution in transition is unreal. Like last year in the playoffs, if you give Vegas an odd man rush, it's in the back of your net. Like, it's a goal 75% of the time if you give them an odd man rush. And that hasn't been the case lately. They've been getting odd man rushes. They aren't converting on them. And Cassidy said last night, he's like, we're not converting.

We're not executing offensively at a level we can. But it is a positive sign that we can play these kind of games because these, are the type of games he likes to play cassidy like he he prefers a two one like most coaches a drag out two one we're not going to give you anything you're not going to give us anything and we're just going to get a couple more than you will um he likes those type of games that's their identity um and I think because there were some playoff games especially close out games it felt like last year in the playoffs every time they had a close out game they scored like nine goals um but despite that that's not the Golden Knights identity. They're not a team that tries to put a bunch of goals up on the board.

They like to play tight checking games and win with defense. And that's what they've done lately. So I think it, I think Cassidy's a lot more comfortable with the defense being in, in line and not having the offense clicking as if it was the other way around and the offense was doing well and the defense isn't clicking. I think he feels a lot more comfortable like this. And I think he thinks that this is a sign that they're closer to being at their top level than it would he would feel if it was the other way around. So, yeah, I think he does look at it as positive. But at the same time, in the playoffs, it gets harder and harder to score goals. And if you're struggling to score goals against the crack in right now, and I didn't think Seattle played a particularly good game, you're really going to struggle to score goals in the playoffs when, I mean,

look at who they're probably going to face in the playoffs. Like, yeah, they could get up there and play Edmonton, but if they don't, it's going to be Vancouver or Winnipeg. Connor Hellebuck and Thatcher Demko, like, it's really freaking hard to score on those guys. you have to be elite offensively just to get a couple goals against those guys. So yes, they are going to have to be much,

much better than they have been offensively in the playoffs if they're going to advance. Yeah, you're right. In hindsight, that was a very stupid question on my part. What am I thinking? Asking a coach, whether he's happy.

It was perfect, it's like, oh, coach, are you okay with this being a one, one game halfway through the third? It's like every single hockey coach in the world is going to be like, yes, sign me up for that. Love it. Yeah.

I'm not surprised that Bruce Cassidy feels that way. But yeah, you're right. I think maybe that's kind of why I'm thinking of it because last postseason, every single one of those closeout games in all four rounds, it really felt like it was sort of like the dam really broke where they had demoralized their opposition with how on edge they had to be at all times because every single mistake was winding up in a scoring chance of the rush that was eventually being converted on. And so like all of it just accumulated. And in each of those games, it was kind of a look at flurry. and it was eventually just like, they were just like stacking one chance after another and them turning into goals. And so that's what I got in the back of my mind. And we haven't really been seeing that version here recently. And maybe that's also kind of like an unfair standard to be holding them to, right? Because it was like this Stanley Cup champion at the peak of its powers that we all agree

was about as deep of a team healthy playing at their full capacity. Right. Compared to this team that's missing key players is trying to incorporate you guys. And it's, still clearly struggling and figuring it out as even their healthy players or guys that are on the ice are sort of coming back into health themselves. Maybe it's not fair to kind of be, it's apples and oranges comparing the two. So that makes a lot of sense. All right, Jesse, let's take a quick break here. And then we come back.

We'll finish up with you. You're listening to the Hockey Ptodcast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. All right. We're back here on the Hockey-O-Cast drama with Jesse Cranger. We're talking about the Golden Knights. Jesse, I want to talk to you a little bit now. I think we've talked about the all-night stuff. I want to talk to you about sort of the trade headline.

sort of the timeline of how everything came together. Because I think in everything I've read and sort of heard from Kelly McCriman talking about it, essentially once they realized that Stone's injury was as serious it was and he was going to be out for as long as he was, they sort of, they were always going to try to creatively add to this team as they always do and try to find ways to supplement it. But that kind of carved out this additional space for them to act. every one of their moves along the way, going from Mantha to Hannafin to hurdle, sort of helped accomplish that by paying a little bit extra to retain on all the salaries

and make it all fit together, right? So it's clearly all of them were sort of like smaller pieces of a larger puzzle. I'm curious in the conversations you've had and kind of everything from the deadline on talking to people and sort of reading the tea leaves yourself, how that all kind of came together. And I'm fascinated always by this process of sort of, identifying the players you want to go after and then facilitating it and making sure it can all happen, right? Because especially when you've got this many deals lined up with different teams as well,

there's sort of a process or as an order of business that you have to go along the way to make sure it can kind of all happen and you leave yourself room to actually accommodate it. And it was interesting, especially in the second trade of the bunch and the Hanepin one, And it was about as like transparent reality that a third trade was coming with the clause on that first round pick being like, unless we move this in the 48 hours, then you can have this year wink, wink, wink, nudge. So it was clear that they had aspirations, even if it wasn't hurdle, that there was going to be another third piece, especially a forward to come in and help this group out. So kind of just lay that all out for us here, I guess, in terms of the reporting you've done yourself, but also just kind of the conversations you've had along the way.

Yeah, it is fascinating. And to me, the interesting part is the hurdle trade happens like minutes before the deadline. And it was the last piece to it. And I think most people would think, oh, wow, like you said, they, they left themselves. Not only did they leave the clause in the trade with Calgary that they could maybe use that pick in a different trade, but they also paid Philadelphia an extra draft pick, a fifth rounder to retain 25% of Hannafin. It's like, well, they're not going to do that if they don't plan on using that. cap space. Why would they just give that pickaway to not use that cap space? So we knew something was

coming. And then you look at the hurdle trade and you say, well, that was the one they figured out at the last minute. And actually, no, that was the first player that they were trying to acquire. Kelly McCrimmon told me that going all the way back to before hurdle was even hurt, when hurdle was still healthy before he had the knee injury and the knee surgery, they had checked in on him. And it's weird because he's a guy with six years left on his contract. So it's not a player that everyone around. the league was expecting to be available at the trade deadline. But for whatever reason, Kelly checked in with San Jose and wanted to see their interest and the fact that San Jose kind of signed that long-term deal and now they're stuck in a rebuild. Hurtle didn't mind the idea of going

to a contender. San Jose probably doesn't think it's going to be competitive for a couple years. So they wanted to get something for him. And they had been working on that deal in terms of like because Hurtle had a full no moment. move. So he had to agree to it. His agent had to agree to it. They've been working on that one for quite a while, like multiple weeks. And then it ends up being the final piece to it. But when they did, and Kelly even said, the reason that condition was on the, the pick to Calgary is he straight up told, I'm blanking on Calgary's GM's name right now. Craig Conroy. Craig Conroy. He told Craig Conroy that like I've been having discussions with another GM for a trade for a long time. And this

pick is in conversations with that. And I can't just pull that pick out of this trade conversations that I've been having. So just so you know, there is a chance I'm going to have to use this pick. And then in that case, we're going to bump your pick back a year. So yes, that was the hurdle trade had definitely been in the works for the longest amount of time. And then to me, I'm very interested in the Hanifin. I wonder if they had planned on adding a defenseman all along or if it was a case of seeing this defense get old in front of their eyes this season because Vegas, their defense is still very good. Don't get me wrong, but Alec Martinez has not been very good this season.

He is 36 and he's blocked a lot of shots and he has looked every bit of it this year. And he's still a great veteran. He's a great guy in the locker room. I understand the value he brings to this team, but he's a UFA at the end of this year. If he does come back, it's probably going to be on a really cheap veteran deal. He has not been, like he makes, I think, 5.25 million is his cap hit. And he's definitely not been worth that this year. And I think this was a case of Vegas, not just trading to, this wasn't a deadline rental to just add to this run.

I think this was a refresh of the defense core for the next five years moving forward. Like, we need to get another young puck moving defenseman in here as one of the cores. because they haven't re-signed them yet, but I would be stunned if Hanifan doesn't resign here long-term. So to me, I wonder if that was more of a reaction to how the defense had played this season and how they had maybe struggled a little bit and not looked like the elite defense they did last year, adding a piece as significant as Hanofin at the deadline was, that's the one that's super interesting to me on whether they had planned all along or if that was just kind of a reactionary trade. Well, and if it was a reaction, you trade literally a week out, right?

Because, and part of this might be them sort of keeping it close to their best and it not leaking out and doesn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been at least internally discussing it or working on something behind the scenes along the way. But at least from everything I gathered, like all the reporting was, it was essentially like Tampa Bay was the suitor because that's where Hanifin wanted to go and that's where he'd sign long term. And so all this consideration about other teams or it's like, all right, they have a logical need. And yeah, they're still American teams. So they have the possibility of retaining

a long term. It still felt like it was very limited in that sense. And then all of a sudden, Vegas kind of like two hours before the trade happened, it was like, all right, Vegas is getting involved here. And then they pushed it across the finish line and close the deal, right? And so it's interesting how that all came together. But it's funny hearing you, you mentioned sort of McCriman being open and honest in that sense with Craig Conroy, because that's also my fantasy football. philosophy as a as a GM myself where I generally if I'm around the trade line I'm trying to work multiple deals I like to tell other owners what I'm working on with others because it's like all right this is this is what I'm thinking here and I kind of

everyone likes to be involved right and know what's going on and then I find that generally helps smooth out the process when you're working on multiple deals so it's interesting to hear that NHLGMs they're just like us he did specify that he didn't tell him what team or what player right what what other deal he was working on he just said I've got another deal that could possibly be in the works with a first round pick. And you hear that and it's like, well, it's a big trade if it's got a first round pick involved. So yeah, I bet Conroy was sitting there like looking around the league like, who the heck

are they trading a first round pick for? And I bet if he did that, he wouldn't have picked Tomash Hurtle with six years left on steel. So yeah, it's, it's this, this team is fascinating to watch the way they've built this team. I mean, they're doing it in a way no team has ever built a team. And part of that is just the, the, the situation, right? they're an expansion team that was good right off the bat. Like that a team has never been built that way. So therefore, like obviously it's going to be different.

But yeah, just their their aggressiveness, willing to give up, willingness to give up top picks and prospects for, for players in their prime. It's fascinating to me. Well, and we've also seen, I think this is a trend that we've spoken about on this show and I've heard others talk about as well,

but we're seeing smart teams try to adopt this more where they're using the deadline as a way to not only beef up their team for, the upcoming postseason run, but also an opportunity to improve their team long term as well, even if it means acquiring a rental who you feel like you're going to be confident in your ability to retain, even if there's no deal in place at the moment, right? And we're sort of seeing teams, we've seen Boston do that a bunch. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Jake Gensel stay in Carolina based on the success he's had and sort of the fit there. And I guess that's one of sort of

the benefits of regardless of like all the state tax stuff and and sort of being like a favorable location for a player to spend the next however many years is being a winning team that goes out and not only competes but keeps proving that that's all they care about as an organization if you're a player in your prime and you're like all right I'm I'm serious about competing for a Stanley Cup that's one of the luxuries of having that infrastructure already in place right where it's like, we feel confident that if we bring this guy in, even if we haven't talked extension yet, as long as they're open to the possibility, we feel very confident that over the next couple weeks and this postseason, that they're going to like what they see behind

the curtain and that they're going to want to sign up for more of this moving forward. And that's sort of what we've seen Vegas do time and time again now. Absolutely spot on. And I think that while, yes, McCrimand and George McPhee, President of Hawkinson, and George McPhee, president of hockey ops who's still kind of running things behind the scenes too. They deserve a ton of credit for the trades they've pulled off and the way they've built this team. But I also do like the city of Las Vegas and the tax, the no state tax and the fact that you can play golf all year round and you're surrounded by golf courses out here.

And we all know that if hockey players aren't on the ice, that's where they're at is playing golf. They love it. The fact that Vegas is what it is allows them to execute that strategy. because if they were in, let's just use Winnipeg as an example, you can't just trade for players without deals and just whatever, they'll sign with us. Like you can't do that. You could end up getting burned. Like if Hanifin doesn't resign in Vegas, this trade was a disaster for them. They gave up all this. I mean, unless you win the cup, right?

Like you need Hanifin to resign in order for this deal to win this trade. Like look at the Mark Stone trade. They traded for him and they were very kind of. confident he was going to re-sign a contract with them. Hanifan, same thing. There is no guarantee, but they just believe he will. And I think a big part of that is Vegas. And you're right.

You do have to be a winning team. You can't be terrible and just be like Arizona is a great place to live. And there's lots of golf courses there. They can't execute this strategy. So it's a combination of an owner that's willing to spend whatever it takes above the cap sometimes to win, a team that's had history winning and a city that all these hockey players don't mind living in. And then you take all that and you have these GMs that then leverage that. I think there are other GMs that maybe wouldn't leverage that the way that Kelly and George

have. So they deserve credit for realizing the situation they're in. Hey, we're in a favorable destination that we tend to get players to resign pretty much whenever we want. So let's be super aggressive and take advantage of these situations because that's the other thing. Kelly said after the deadline. Yes, they go after a lot of players more than most teams. That's pretty obvious. But it's the right situations. They look at situations where a player can be had for a discount. Mark Stone wanted out of Ottawa. He wasn't going to resign. They got him for pretty cheap. Jack Eichael needs a neck surgery. There's a lot of questions there. This wasn't, they didn't pay a premium for Jack. They paid a lot for him, but it wasn't a premium because of the situation he was in. Haniffin, similar situation.

They are finding these opportunities to get really talented players in the prime of their career and they're jumping on it and they're being aggressive and they're just hoping they'll be able to resign him down the road. And so far it's worked. Well, and the thing with picks and prospects, obviously part of it is, like, if you hit on it, you not only get young peak cost controlled years, but you quite literally get production on ELC, and that's incredibly valuable when you are a contender that has a bunch of big money salary on the books. But what they're doing in a sense is they are kind of using picks and prospects to get younger and extend their window, but they're doing so by leveraging them and kind of parlaying them into getting younger. on their main roster, right? And so I think that's essentially what you alluded to with replacing Martinez, whose contract is expiring and even McNabb, who has a year left today's deal as already entering his mid-30s on the left side with a guy in his prime in his bid to late 20s in Hannibal.

They kind of did that with Barbershev last year bringing him in and replacing his Riley Smith's salary with him, right? And that's kind of what they're trying to do here. So I think that's a really interesting strategy. And also I just appreciate it because in a league where we constantly, like teams love to tell you about how much they're trying to improve their teams, right? It's like, oh, we're working the phones. We're leaving no stone unturned. But unfortunately, oh, we're the L.A. Kings. And it's too complicated acquiring Riley Smith at this deadline. We just can't fit his $5 million a salary. We see a team actually creatively accomplishing it and doing so in a constant pursuit to improve their team. Right. And so I think that's very intriguing and I think

it's very notable. And that's why we talk about it so much. But yeah, it's kind of cool to see. Any kind of parting thoughts here or notes in terms of what you're watching for the rest of the way or kind of things that you think we should have hit on, but we didn't get to here yet? I mean, the only thing we didn't really talk about is the goaltending, and it hasn't been as good lately. And I think that so we kind of went over how the defense is rounding into form a little bit. And I think that is what they need to lead to the goaltending. I think Aiden Hill and Logan Thompson are good goalies,

but they aren't the type of goalie that if you don't protect them, they can just win you games. They have to have good structure in front of them. And when you do put good structure in front of them, they get confident. And then suddenly, like, Aiden Hill has a miraculous run. Like in the playoffs, yes, the defense was good. But Aiden Hill was spectacular in the playoffs for the Golden Knights.

And they need that confidence back, whether it's from Hill, Thompson played pretty well last night. They need the defense to play in front of them really, really well. get their confidence going and then they'll look like the team they did last year. So I think if you told me like, what are you the least confident in going into class? It's probably the goalies because of the way they've played lately, but I see a very like reasonable path to them getting back to where they were. And if they do, then the Golden Knights are going to be a really tough out.

If they don't, they probably won't be. So it's there's a lot of pressure on those guys, but that's what that's life of an NHL goalie, right? you signed up for that pressure. So to me, that's what I'm going to be watching down the stretch is, can this defense continue playing this well to give these goalies the confidence to where they can reach that? They can round into form as well. And if that happens, Vegas is going to be really good.

If it doesn't, they won't be. Well, and what's in, I guess what helps in that sense is we've sort of seen the proof of concept where I guess on the one hand, it's like goalie performance is always wildly unpredictable. And for most teams, unless you have the truly elite guys, it's going to be a question that remains to be answered. But at least in this sense, we've sort of seen not only with the specific goalie in Aden Hills case, but also with the team in front of them in the way they play and went at their best,

how they make life easier for them. We've seen that already in action last year. And so I think it makes a lot more sense in terms of pointing to something as what we're trying to accomplish and then going out and doing it. Jesse, this was a blast. I'm glad we got to chat about this team and I'm glad we got to catch up because it had been in too long. I'll let you plug some stuff here on the way out. What do you got in the works and what do you want the listeners to check out?

Yeah, thanks for having me, man. Always fun coming on. It's funny, this conversation is great because I'm in the middle of writing a story basically saying like the Golden Knights are starting to look like themselves. So very similar to this conversation, but obviously in the written form, I can get into some stats and get into some charts and stuff a little bit more. So that'll be out soon. And then also just goalie stuff. I'm lucky enough that the athletic is letting me write national goalie stuff this year. I've been probably doing honestly more goalie coverage than I have Golden Knights coverage.

It's kind of 50-50 for me this year. So I'm looking forward to the playoffs and just writing about how a guy is stealing a series and stuff like that. So if there are any people out there listening that aren't Golden Knights fans, don't want to read Golden Knights stuff, I'm also writing a lot of goalie stuff on the athletic for the rest of the season. It should be fun. Everyone wants to read your Golden Night stuff, but you're the best in the business that covering our team. So keep up the great work. It's a privilege having you on.

I'm looking forward to the next time we get the chat. hopefully we'll get to do so in the postseason. So thank you for coming on. Thank you for the listeners for listening to us. That's going to be it for another week here, shows. Only plugs for me. Go smash that five-star button wherever you're listening to the PDOCast and hop into the Discord server.

The invite link is in the show notes. And that's going to be it for another week here, shows. Enjoy the weekend. And I'll see you back on Monday with plenty more of the Hockey PDOCast streaming on the SportsNet Radio Network.