The Hockey PDOcast - Stars vs. Golden Knights, and What to Watch for in Game 6

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Sean Shapiro joins Dimitri to talk about how the Stars have turned things around to win the past two games and force a Game 6. They also highlight what to watch for in Game 6, including Thomas Harley's usage, Jason Robertson's impact, and how Jack Eichel is attacking defenders.This podcast is produced by  Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitri Filippovich and joining me as my good buddy, Sean Schiore. Sean, what's going on, men? Not much. It's apparently it's a, I forgot it was a holiday weekend until I was, I woke up and realized that my kids didn't go to daycare today.

So it was, I realized it was a holiday weekend, but it's, I guess I should have known that, right? Like there's pretty good branding in the hockey world, right? Right. Memorial Cup, right? We should know that. I feel like there's a, I've edited work around that in the past couple days for our already Rink side.

And so probably should have known it was a holiday weekend, but all the days, a day off for the rest of the world. But there's still playoff hockey tonight, right? That's what I was going to say. There's no days off during the Stanley Cup playoffs. Yes. And none more so true than tonight because there's a, a big game six between the stars and golden nights.

And that's what we're going to talk about here today. We're going to record this thing, get it out so people can hopefully listen before the game starts. We're going to talk about the series as a whole, the first five games, well, we've seen the adjustments, the kind of roller coaster ride of good and bad from the stars perspective and then kind of tee up game six and get people ready for that. So where do you want to start here? Do you want to kind of key in on the turnaround from the stars perspective, right? It seems like, I don't know how long ago it was now, four days.

go. It was probably the most disheartening way you could lose, right? You go down to nothing, but it's too close coin flip overtime games. You come home, game three. You've had an fantastic home crowd all postseason and you completely lay an egg. Like within a minute and a half, the game is essentially over. The rest is just, you may as well play with a running clock, right? There was no actual competition involved. And you're going through nothing. And it's like, all right, we've seen comebacks like this happened before a couple times over the past decade or so, but the odds are still heavily against you. And just the fashion in which the star has lost, I think, in game three made me think that this was all about a wrap just because it was,

I felt like it was tough to come back from that. Now we spent it forward a few days. They've played their two best games of the series by far. Certainly, Game five was, was the best five-on-five performance they've played of either team in this matchup. Really, it's been a close series, but that was about as decisive a victory as you're going to get. And now we go to game six or back home. How do we feel about this? What spread this turnaround? Let's get into all that good stuff. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's you go back to game three. And it's the, like, we know the stars went to, they technically had home games, quote unquote home games in the bubble in Edmonton when they went to the final in 2020. But this was the first, this was the biggest home game.

That's the biggest actual home game in 15 years. I mean, you were, you were in the house. Yeah, yeah, I'm in the building there. And it's, uh, Ed, you go from. You get the, the, the, it was like the, the, the, the breakdown of it was the, like, the Vegas scores the first goal and that wasn't really like, and it feels like that really starts to take the air out of the building. But then the Ben penalty and the five-minute major and then basically it was the two-nothing goal that really just like started to like really break it where you're like, man, this is, this series is over.

We, you've seen the replay of the Ben, uh, cross check on stone enough times where you know, this is not just a, this is no longer, this is going to be definitely going to game four whenever it is. To be clear, alleged cross check, right? Depending on who you ask, some parties might say he might have just slipped and then accidentally placed his stick on his neck. It's still really unclear. It's all up interpretation.

I mean, yes, clearly, right? Like, it's, we would have fallen. Who amongst us hasn't fallen and landed with a stick on someone's neck at some point? I mean, listen, Jamie's been in the, right? around for a long time. He's not as young as he used to be, right? Getting a bit older, slips and falls sometimes happen with older age. I mean, listen, it's, it's, I'm not sure that's the cave. That's the argument I would have necessarily gone with. And the fact that he had, what, 24 hours essentially? Yes, to, uh, to concoct this with his team is hilarious. Um, but

the show goes on. The, uh, it was, I can, they will never, uh, we'll never hear the true reaction that Pete DeBore and Jim Nill had to that press conference. But I, I, I don't, Pete DeBore is, as we've seen, he's very good at saying the right thing at the right time. Pete's a, Pete went to law school. He has a lawyer trainee. He knows how to play things the right way. Jim Nill is very calculated in the way he speaks to the media. And when Jamie actually had his hearing with George Peros, Jim Nill was present.

And from my understanding of it, Jim did much of the talking, which was, which probably is the reason it was only two games and not more. But I can only imagine the punching the, like, I can imagine Jim, Jim, and I picture like this, Nill and DeBoer and Ben all sitting in a room and they're like, okay, Jamie, they're going to ask about this, prep for this. Okay, I got it. Pete goes and starts getting ready for his day and everything like that. And then he picks up his phone. He says, what?

He said, what? What did we just go over? Like, I just, I picture that happening on the back end. And now we'll never get Pete or Jim to admit it because they say the right thing. but I just imagine it's like he was the guy who went rogue against his legal team's advice when finally stepping up to a microphone. Yeah. What are you?

Do you have any line on like what the timeline was of this plan coming together in terms of that was the direction they were going to go with in terms of the public comments, right? Like because I imagine this is all of this stuff is generally run through so many different voices and parties, right? I'm sure like the agent involved. I'm sure the management, the coach, everything. Like this isn't a player going rogue, especially the day after, right?

Like this has been planned. I'm assuming they just chose to go with that because I guess even though everyone can see how, like, didn't leave bailed and transparent it is, like I guess you're just not ever going to publicly admit that you, you kind of were frustrated, snap, lost your mind and just viciously cross-checked someone who was prone and lying in the neck, right?

Like it's not going to go down like. So you just went with this sort of excuse if you want to call it. Jamie also like it's I do know like one thing that broke down on the timing of it was there's a Ben probably wasn't going to speak to the media until there was all the backlash after he didn't speak after in the immediate aftermath of game three it was uh it was something where the I think if the stars brass had been the ones picking when he would have spoke he would have spoken right after the game but I think it's one of those things were just a natural thing like stars PR focuses on who talks not the and Jamie decided he wasn't going to talk and if he walks to his car like he did you can't really you can't really do anything about it the the space with with with Ben that just like kind of that's interesting here is some guys have um and as I say this because I know firsthand from this Jamie does not have nearly as an involved agent as some other people do like so I remember when the other

other rather famous Jamie Ben, Tyler Sagan, and I was a part of when Jim Lights and I had a lovely conversation in his office. That might have been the first time we ever did a show together. We got together like an hour-long breakdown years ago of how that came to be. But I talked to Tyler's agent and I had quite the lengthy conversation that was even longer than you and I had on the podcast. While Jamie's agent and I did not have nearly as long of a conversation, there was not nearly as much of.

So Jamie does not have a, like, can you imagine if, like, if, if, if Jamie had one of the more vocal agents, one of the guys who was, who was going out on Twitter. Right. Let's say, let's say it reminds us schmall and small. Yes, yes. There's a, I think there's in a different approach to how this is handled. Jamie is a little bit more of his own, makes his own decisions on things like that. And I think, well, it showed. It's show, it definitely showed.

And it's not, it wasn't going to change any chance Jamie had of this being a one game suspension went out the window when the public comments were, I would have liked to not land with my stick on his neck. Yeah, that's the one thing I would have liked to do differently. Okay, well, let's, you know, he is coming back for game's sakes, but I think that's such a, you know, you could craft a story around that certainly, right? the captain coming back. It seemed like he wasn't going to get a chance to play in the series. Now he is, I don't, that's less interesting to me.

I want to talk more about what will you see in particularly in game five, right? Because you and I were messaging as that game was going on. You are tracking the shot locations and like the zone entries and stuff. I've been looking at the shot types, how they're being created, who's creating them, all that good stuff.

And it really felt like that was, it wasn't being reflected on the scoreboard for a long period of time, right? The stars were down one off thing. they were down to 1. Even the shots on goal were pretty close that you see on the broadcast. But for me, the way they were getting back to their roots in terms of everything that had made him successful all season prior to the first three games of the series really came

back into focus here, right? Yeah. The rush shots were 14 to 5 at 5-1-5 in game 5 for the stars. The rebounds at 5-1 were 10 to 1 for Dallas. And that is, that's their two-pronged attack, right? they either get you off the rush or then they work the puck up to the point, take a shot with layers of screens in front and either tip it or pounce on those rebounds. And that's something they really hadn't been able to, you know,

form or materialize at all in the first three games. And that's credit to Vegas's defensive approach as well in their structure. But they found somehow a way to break through that. And so for all the talk about, you know, Bruce Cassidy after the game framed it through the lens of what his team was doing poorly, right? He said the quote about 24 giveaways, you're going to lose to even there's a lot of coyotes when you play that way, which is just hilarious. And that's just the coyotes being like, oh, come on, man. Let us enjoy our offseason.

We have enough of our own issues. But for all of that talk, I thought actually a much bigger issue for them was that Dallas really got back to kind of halfway through game four and then really all of game five playing exactly the way they need to play. Yeah, I agree with that. And it's something where there's, there's. a couple narratives that it's playoffs narratives are great like i mean how many times are we going to on the broadcast tonight um especially and if the stars went tonight in force game seven we're going to we're going to get the jammie ben story over and over and over again and it's it's it's a fair story but as you said it's it's it's it makes me a bit uncomfortable how it's being framed as like this guy like

yeah is coming back through this adversity it's like it's very self-inflicted right it's not it's not like yeah i i i don't same way like like i like i i i i don't same way like i like i I actually, like, the stars, the stars rallying so Joe Pavelski can play again. That was someone recovering from a concussion. Like, I don't like, are we ever going to see this guy again? And then he miraculously comes back and scores a hat trick. That is cool. Yeah, it's like, it's Jamie Ben coming back is the, like, it's the full, it's the full heel turn of everything.

Where it's like, like, it's this, like right now the stars are kind of a, a, a, uh, in vogue because of Joe Pavelsky, like, good, like, bandwaggers, bandwagoner fan to jump onto, right? If Joe Pavelle's, if Jamie Ben comes back and scores four goals tonight, they go full villain, people start rooting for Vegas just from the outside perspective, because what he did was awful and he shows no remorse. So, like, I, it'll be part of the story and everything like that, but it's not really, to me, the bigger thing is the stars, how they, as you said, how they changed the game, how they, how they got back to their game.

And I think one of the bigger, more impressive things is having look at how this team's transition has built. This transition was built. The Ben storyline is the one that dominates the conversation and he's the captain. But one of the stars best transition players throughout the playoffs has been Evgeny Daddorf. And he's been out the past couple games. And to me, that's more impressive that they got back to their game. They got back to when they lost a player in the lineup who had actually been doing it pretty well the first couple games, one of the few guys who actually had been. And to me, that's the space. where I look at with the Stars team, like Ben coming back, it's a great storyline.

I'm sure they'll, I'm sure they'll play it up in the arena tonight, but the bigger thing to, from a Star's perspective, and as you touched on, is they're playing their game again. And it's funny, like, I hate this. Like, I don't want to take, I don't want Jamie Ben returning and his ouster to be taken, to take away credit from what the actual story of the hockey game. will be because it's going to. Yeah. Well, there's there's the story and then there's the broadcast story, right? And I think everyone is familiar with the difference between those two are kind of what sells. Yeah, I mean, it's much more difficult for a broadcast to craft a story around. Wow,

Freddie Oliveson has come in and really provided some juice to this bottom six. You know, Kiwi Ranta, playoff Kiranthas, doing it again. Dlandria finally scores two big goals and kind of rewards all those who have been talking about how he has much more offensive capabilities. then maybe he's been able to show because of the players he's played with all year. Like all of that stuff has happened. I think that's what's been amazing too, right? If you look at the game five, certainly Jason Robertson, we can talk more about him continuing his goal scoring and his like, how he's like, you look at that goal and it's

that second effort off of the initial one that maybe shows the difference between what's going right from now and where his struggles were earlier this postseason. But after that, it was really a lot of that bottom six that was creating for them. And so I don't know, like how do we rationalize that, right? Is it just kind of like a natural ebb and flow of a playoff series? These two teams were much closer than the 3-0 lead for Vegas indicated. Is it a matter of, you know, Dallas having some added desperation, right? You go down 3-0, you show that resolve or however you want to frame it.

And then you give that push. And then now it's on Vegas to retaliate. Is it Vegas as Bruce Cassidy is trying to portray it? kind of taking their foot off the gas a little bit because you go up three nothing. The Stanley Cup is is within reach, at least the Stanley Cup final in your appearance there. You know Florida is waiting for you. Like how do we juggle all of, is it probably a combination of all those things? Like I, that's how I feel.

But I mean, I think depending on your angle, you could really kind of plow ahead with whatever take you want. I think another like angle on it that's important that is just kind of it's because it's only in the grand scheme of things. It's not sexy to make talk about something that's happening three minutes a game. But like Thomas Harley is playing past three games, the stars have bumped Thomas Harley to about 18 minutes a night. I mean, that's something where they haven't done that all. In the offensive zone, they're playing, they're doing, there's spaces where Hachkin and Harley are on the ice together for offensive draws together. Like the coaching staff is doing something that frankly they should have done 12, 12 games. ago. And you talk about kind of the transition part of the game. That's a space too where another

angle of this is like the stars are, they're getting out of their own zone better. They're trusting Harley more. And Harley has been playing with more of that. There is more of a confidence to it. He's played when he plays more minutes. He plays better. He's one of those guys who he builds off his own ego in a healthy way. So that's happening. And then the other thing, too, is, is just you look at the, I'm going to use this to detract from Ben for a second because everything's going to be given Ben's. The, we've talked glowingly about Joe Pavelsky.

You and I probably think for an entire episode, which is about Joe Pavelsky, but like Joe Pavelsky basically took over as the captain, basically. And basically it was, and he is, although he obviously handles himself better in the media than Ben does. He is, I think, more of the back against your wall leader who can actually help a team beyond just the emotional sense. We always hear, and I covered the stars forever, right? Like, Jamie Ben is the emotional leader.

The team follows him everywhere, but he's always been the emotional leader. It's never been Jamie Ben is the guy who's going to, you're going to go to if like, hey, should we draw how we draw this play up. Joe Pavelski is that guy. And I think part of that, too, is you look at as this team comes back. And if the stars win tonight and force game seven and win a game seven, a ton of credit is going to go to Joe Pavelski and frightfully show because he was the guy they needed in that room from a player perspective, even though he's obviously not the most fully of foot. And he's not the one pushing the transition, but he's still, I mean, it's, it's funny like looking at it where I was talking after the game after game five, it's because Ben's, obviously going to come back into the lineup and things like that. And it's,

you kind of feel for like Freddie Oliveson. Like, Freddie Olfson's probably going to be the one that comes out. But like, Freddie Olfson nearly ends game, nearly ends game four with the minute left. Freddie Olivesons helped create a fourth line that actually tax the transition. And so if Ben comes back in and you move Mason Marchment to that fourth line,

like, I mean, honestly, I honestly think the best, I don't think they'll do it because he's a big signing and they would do it. But like, to me, I think the better move is to put Ben in,

for Marchman and keep Freddie Oliveson in and in my personal opinion, but I don't think, I don't think coaches and contracts will allow that to happen. Yes. Well, okay, let's, you mentioned Harley there. I wanted to, you know, speaking on this theme of, um, how it felt like things changed the bed in game five in particular. Was that born out of necessity in terms of, you know, especially you're down one, you have multiple one goal deficits, your seasons on the line.

And so you're kind of going. And then it helps that, you know, Ryan Suter once again makes a very questionable defensive mistake on one of the goals. Is it, was it that or was it an actual C change here in terms of usage? Because you look up after game five, Thomas Harley played just 36, 5 on 5 seconds fewer than Ryan Suter for third most on the Dallas Stars team, which is a, it's been going that way, but it's a massive, massive change and a representation of it. from the way Pete DeBore has used his defenseman all postseason, right?

Where it was like, Hayskinin up top by a wide margin and Ryan Suter, and then another massive golf and then like everyone else. And so in this case, you see Harley, finally, I think he played four or five minutes of those with Mero Haskinen, mostly in offensive zone shifts, right, off of draws and stuff. They help create one of those goals playing together. It's a very enticing proposition, right? because everything that they've struggled with in terms of foot speed, breaking the puck out, sustaining offensive zone pressure, Harley helps with that significantly,

as opposed to having Suter out there with Hayskin. And so that's been one of my issues where I understand you want to have Mero out as often as possible, right? Because he's one of the only guys who can at least put up some sort of resistance against Heikl's line in particular with the foot speed Eichl has as a puck carrier. But then if you just have Suter attached to his hip, then that means that's a lot of Ryan Suter. And in this case, if you're actually splitting up those shifts and getting Harley out both with Hanley's pair, but also situationally with Hayeskin, all of a sudden, I think that that's an entirely different landscape and kind of game environment for the stars and one that really intrigues me.

So I'm kind of curious to see if that finally unlocked something or if it was just kind of like a one game blip. I don't, I mean, I said it's a really good question. I think the causation for it doesn't matter if they keep doing it. Like I think, I truly think it was, I think it happened because our seasons on the line, you try everything. I think I think that's why it happened in the first place, but I think we'll definitely learn a lot based on whether you stick with it or not. Because that, that to me is the stars are a better team. They have a better chance of winning tonight. They have a better chance of winning the series when you go with that approach.

and it's it's it's to me it's pretty clear that that is the way to go now the causation and whether it was over overreacting one way or the other that's that's that's fine but i think you have to you have to build off of what you did with hardly in game five and i think that is going to be a big key and it's i i i i i the coach will take if it works coaches will take credit but like I truly think it actually happened because like well we're we're down season's over if let's try something so I mean 82 5 on 5 minutes in the series for harley shots are 48 to 29 for the stars high danger chances 18 to 9 the goals are even but you watch the the goal that he helped create in game 5 that is why you want thomas harley on the ice

especially in the offensive zone right you're like certainly his breakout ability he's had a few turnovers himself they're dealing with with the vagus's pressure of the series it's a bit of an adjustment I think in terms of like how aggressive and heavy their for check is and how more physically oriented it is than maybe Seattle's wasn't round two. That was more speed-based. But when he's on the ice in the offensive zone, a shot by him from the point

where he's trying to place it at a forward stick to tip it, which is something the stars do better than anyone in the league, is just, it's different that when a Lindel or a suitor takes it, right? Or it's like, you can tell there's some sort of actual design in thought and actual talent in terms of placement behind it that gives them a better chance to score on those and turn them into scoring chances as opposed to some of these other ones, even though in theory it looks like the same shot based on where it's happening on the ice. The likelihood I feel of it actually being a scoring chance or goal is significantly higher

when it's coming from Harley. So I just, I don't know how you go away from that. Luke Lindenin and Esselandelle are not combining for a goal. Ryan Suter and Luke Lendenten are not combining for a goal. Like give Glendon credit, he's in the right spot. Him and Fox are creating havoc in front of the net. But like that goal is if it's he's got the stick out, it's, it's a, the tip is there. It's, it's already, Hill is already fighting further through it.

If that shot is suitor, it's going, it's probably staying right on the ice. It's not tipped. I mean, it might be tip, but it's, it's staying right on the ice and it's, and it's not at the spot where it can take the route it does. like I, 100%. It's, it's the launch point, the, the actual thought process into it. It's, it's approaching something with an art as opposed to being, I'm going to mash buttons and throw things. Well, on Friday's show, I laid out a full passionate case about how regardless of the result of this series, even if the stars come back and win the Stanley Cup, they have to really strongly consider buying out Ryan's sooner this summer. and purely just because of a sentence you said a couple minutes ago there where like how much of this is planned,

how much of this coaching, who deserves credit for it. I just don't. And I really like Pete DeBoer as a coach. I think compared to his peers, he's at the top end in terms of like thoughtfulness. And even if he's not using analytics the way we think about it, like he's giving a lot of credence and thought to a lot of this stuff beyond just the usual kind of hockey. chase, right? But even he has shown that he's not immune to whatever spell a veteran defenseman cast on NHL coaches. And that's happening again here where I'm sure he doesn't want to be playing Ryan Souter 23 to 25 minutes a night at this at this age. But whether it's because he feels like

he's his safest option or he just feels most comfortable with him out there, he's sending him out there for these shifts when you and I and anyone watching these games at home can notice what an issue that presents, right? And how in so many different facets of the game, it's a massive problem. And yet it keeps happening. And so regardless of what happens here, you almost have to just get him out of there just to clear the runaway for a guy like Harley or whoever else you want to bring in to actually have a legitimate opportunity to take these minutes because as long as a player like him

is there, coaches are going to keep giving them minutes. Well, it's as a GM, you have to be the adult in the room sometimes. And that's what it is. It's like, and I'm going to use an example as someone who has children, because I've seen this before, right? Like, you have multiple toys all in the living room and everything like that. And the, if they're in the room, they're going to be played with. If you take them away, and if you're, if you take them away, like, for a while, my daughter really liked kinetic sand. And it was really annoying because it gets in everything and stuff like that.

Well, if you just take it away from them, they're not going to, they're not going to use it. So, like, Ryan Suter is the kinetic sand. Like, you don't, like, like, it's, it's not like, it's not like the coaches, the coach is the child with toys. The coach is like, oh, it's there. I'm going to play with it. If it's, if, uh, but if you just take it out of the room and it's gone, well, then he has to, he has to use something else. So that's, like, it's, it's exactly that. It's you as the GM as Jim Nill in this situation, you have to be the adult in the room and realize that you can say like, oh, you know what, you can, we'll move Ryan Suter to a 12, 13 minute guy, third pairing guy.

It's one thing to say that in the off-season meeting. And Pete DeBoer probably would say it in the off-season meeting. But then game two of the season, when it's a three-two game and it's close, Ryan Seeders playing 20 minutes again. So, yes, it's taking the tool away from the coach. It reminds me of one of the things that the stars, and the stars have had made decisions about this before, one of the things when I remember Jim Nill told me when near the end of the near the end of the one part two Ken Hitchcock, the Ken Hitchcock Redux in Dallas, I remember having a conversation with Nill about Spesa and Hitchcock. And Jim was willing to at least acknowledge that there was no way that both Jason Speza and Ken Hitchcock could be back the next year. And, so.

So they were going to have to make a decision on whatever they made the decision on one would impact the other. And so whether it was Ken Hitchcock, and this is a, this is a timeline. I've never actually been able to nail down because, but from, but whether it was the decision that they were going to stick with Speza led to Hitchcock basically going or Hitchcock going and we're keeping Spez. I'm not sure which, but basically Jim Nill's had to make these decisions before. Jim Nill had a similar decision to make with Thomas Harley where the Stars, I've actually heard that within the Stars organization, Jim Montgomery was a big, really like Thomas Harley and training camp. But Jim Nill also was, that was a spot where Jim Nill wanted to send Thomas Harley back

to junior because he felt that he didn't want Harley to get to 12 games, and then the coach be like, I don't really have a spot for you. and be in that spot where he would have had to play there. And so that was where Jim Nill was the adult in the room when Jim Montgomery wanted Thomas Harley a little bit more. And Jim Nill felt like you can want him, but you have to understand that if you have to actually, you have to play him and you can't mess up my contract cap situation.

So Jim Nill will have to make that decision. He's made those decisions before. It will be very interesting to see how it happens because it's also on him where, now, If the stars go and win the cup, he gets a little bit more carte blanche. He can buy out everyone. He's got a cup. He can do whatever he wants.

But it will be if they lose tonight, if they lose Wednesday. Jim Nill is also having to wear a little bit because he's the one who signed Ryan Souter. Like at the end of the day, he's the one who signed him. He's the one responsible for him. Well, he is. And he's talked a big game in media throughout the year of like deflecting criticism away from him, right? And like acting like it's a non-issue. I mentioned this on the Friday show as well, though.

if you look at the contract details that he did sign Ryan Suter to, and it was an egregious decision to give him a four-year deal, certainly. The way it was signed, though, with a $1 million signing bonus in year one being the only signing bonus they gave him and it being a front-loaded deal, or sorry, a back-loaded deal as well, that gave them an out clause here, especially this summer, where you can buy them out, even though it's a 35-plus-year-old deal, you don't have to carry the full freight of it. they only cost them like 800K or something on the cap the next two years. And so you know, you certainly, whenever you structure these contracts, a lot goes into it.

You have to like map out every single possible best and worst case scenario accordingly, certainly. So I don't think when they signed it, they were like, oh, after two years, we're going to buy them out or whatever or how long it's been. But I do think part of it is keeping that door open. And so for all this talk about how it's like, this is a non-story. It clearly is a story. You're seeing that this postseason.

and I do think that is going to happen the summer and it needs to. Just it's, it's time. I, I, I, I love watching Thomas Harley so much and like so much about the stars team. And then you watch some of these plays that are being screen captured and gift of Ryan

Searer. It's like, man, this is, it's just such an antithesis to what this team actually is and the way it was built. And I just, it's so, it's so frustrating to me, Ryan.

It's so frustrating, Sean, I just can't, I can't handle it. Well, I mean, it's, if you're Jim Nill,

too. And once again, and this is a conversation that you have to have over the summer. You're not having a four game six. But like you talk about you have to wear the Ryan Suter contract, but you also traded a first round pick for Nils Lundquist. And you're telling like you talk about addition by subtraction and freeing stuff up. Like if you're Jim and you are someone who has valued and put so much importance on a first round pick like he has.

He never trades first round picks. And then you did it for Lundquist. You can't not have him in. lineup next year. And so it becomes, it may be those conflicting spaces all start to come together where what's one of your simplest ways to fix multiple problems? How do you make sure Thomas hardly plays big minutes? How much, how do you make sure that Ryan, how do you make sure that Nils Lundquist has actually in the lineup? There's a, there's a buyout. How do you make sure your team is actually better? Okay, John, let's take our break here. And then when we come back,

We'll talk about a few other things regarding this Star's Golden Night series and wrap it up there. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.O. Cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. Breaking down the top stories in the NHL every day. The Jazz Marrick Show. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, we're back here in the Hockeyedio cast of Sean. We've talked a bit about kind of like the team side of it. Let's talk more about some individual performances here from this series so far.

I'll give you the floor here. Do you want to go Jason Robertson or do you? do you want to go with Jack Eichael? Because I feel like they're the two most, uh, the two most interesting sort of individual performances we can key in on. Uh, let's go with, uh, let's start off.

Let's start with Eichael. Let's see, we talked to Alice. Okay. Let's, well, because it's, I think there's,

uh, there's some similar things to both these guys, but so let's, let's start with Eichel here. Okay, let's talk with Ikel. So he still hasn't scored a goal yet in this series and it has not been for a lack of chances.

He's gotten at least a couple, pretty much every single game. Uh, and he's created a bunch for his teammates as well. So I think he's been phenomenal. Something I noticed in rewatching all the shifts he's taken, not only in this series, but throughout this postseason,

is it's really interesting how he's attacking opposing defensemen. So he's a right-hand shot, right? And he keeps coming down the left wing and entering the zone kind of along the boards on the left side. And I think part of it is a testament to how just smooth of a skater he is and how scared opposing defensemen are, of being put on a highlight reel where at Dim Philipovich tweets out an embarrassing clip of them getting roasted.

But there's a lot of self-preservation involved, even from a great skater like, say, Amiro Heiskenen, where you're taking a step or two back more than you would otherwise to account for Eichols game-breaking speed. And in doing so, you're playing right into his hands because I'm sure if you give him a lane, he will take it to the net. But he's shown no interest so far in actually taking it on his backhand as he goes down the left side to avoid a stick check, right? All he wants to do is he sets you up by backing you off, taking a step or two into the zone past the blue line, and then moving towards the middle of the ice where he can then either like leave a little drop pass for a defenseman as a trailer or get it to someone else from a better attacking position in the middle of the ice.

And maybe this is part of my, my upbringing and training, playing basketball as a youth over the years where you're always taught, like, if you're going to get beaten, at least get beaten by taking away the other player's strength, right? You don't want to let them go on their strong hand. If they beat you going, if they're a right-handed player and they beat you going left, so be it. They made a great play. But you can never just give them a free lane to go on their strong side. And in this case, that's exactly what they're. letting Eichel do. Now it's obviously easier said than done. I'm sure in a lot of these video sessions in preparation for these games, the stars have noticed this. And I'm sure they're

telling their defensemen to pressure him and kind of angle him in a certain direction. And yet, once you see Jack Eichael bearing down on you with space and the puck on a stick, the calculus changes a little bit, right? And you go into that self-preservation mode. But I'm very curious to talk you about that in terms of like seeing that on tape, how you prepare for it, how you defend it, it's time and time again. It's like clockwork. And I would just love to see that little adjustment, but maybe the stars just simply don't have the personnel

beyond a hasten to actually be able to execute that plan because a lot of these other guys are just clinging on for dear life and making sure they don't get embarrassed by him. The interesting thing about Eichl to me too is how often he, like he's a center, right? But he attacks like an offhand winger a lot. Like that's like it's very, it's something where, and now I'm a big proponent of positionless hockey in general.

I think that's the way of the future of the game. But I think so often from a defensive defender mindset, so often we hear, oh, you don't want to give the center of the middle of the ice. And so I think so often because of Eichael's quote unquote natural position and everything like that, I think there becomes a default of like, well, we're keeping him to the outside where he's attacking to the outside. outside, he's not coming in down the center. We're already kind of winning this. We don't really, like, I feel like there's already a bit of a natural, and I'm not sure how much that calculus actually happens in the game, but I think it's part of the, part of the defensive mindset to it,

because he comes in, he comes down, he attacks down, he attacks down the wing more. He attacks, he attacks on his offhand. And it's, I mean, and that line plays well off of it, right? Like, they do. They play really well off of it as a group and everything like that. and it brings a different element. And I, it's kind of one of those weird things where I wonder if,

if Ikel was listed as a winger, right? Like if he was listed as a winger, if all of a sudden the defenseman is like, oh, I'll play this little bit differently. I'm just controlling this. I'm not, like, I just wonder if there, we still have a lot of programming that we have to get out of guys' heads.

And I wonder if this is one of those programming things where you look at it's like, well, he's a center attacking down the wing. We're already winning a little bit. I wonder if that's, that's a false narrative that gets that that kind of jumps into guys brains well and i should say um it's burning my mind in game well the game or um later in that game there was that one shift right where at the start of the shift he burns ryan suitor and then Ryan suitor goes off the ice cycle

still out there and he basically regroups and then he burns Thomas harley off of a second individual rush and in both those instances defender did step up on him a little bit and he basically like put it in their skates then made a crossover got a real real. about around them and then got to the net. And so I acknowledge that it's a lot easier to be like, well, you need to do this a certain way. And then his skills can still break through that. But in watching all of these shifts, I have never seen him coming down the left wall,

be pressured by a defenseman into taking the puck as a right shot on his backhand and then making a play off of that way. He's made some passes off his backhand off the half wall on the power play. But on a five on five rush, he's never been forced to do so. And instead he's just because of the space you're giving him, he's getting into the middle. And that's unlocking everything they're trying to do as a team. So it's just you have to take away an opponent's strength. And if they beat you with their weakness, so be it.

But losing to their strength is just a really tough way to go out. So that's something that I've kind of noticed and I've been watching. And maybe viewers and listeners and viewers can watch that at home tonight when they're watching this game. Do you want to talk a little bit about Jason Robertson now? because he's also been a story here for me where it's certainly all the goals have helped at one point. I think before tied to Landria's explosion, he had accounted for like half of the team's goals so far on this series. Yeah, it was like of the 10 goals. He had five of them, I think it was at one point.

Yeah. Yeah. And the game four performance in particular was about his dominant and individual performances. Oh, yeah. Like I thought he might get up to 20 shot on shot attempts at some point because he had like 13 or 14 through two periods. It's been really rewarding and fun to watch, especially even that goal that I mentioned earlier in game five, where he comes down the wing, takes the shot, it gets blocked, but then follows up on it and basically forces it through like sheer will into the net, right? I think that has been, we've discussed throughout this postseason what his issues have been, whether he has had a nagging injury, whether it's been an adjustment to just how different the playoff game is to the regular season game. I think it's certainly looking like it was more of the latter

because it just seems like he has adjusted to getting to his spots better by just fighting through it harder. I know that's kind of like a cliche thing. You want it more or whatever. All these guys want to win a Stanley Cup, I'm sure. But like seeing him give those multiple efforts on these shifts, it just looked different than it did in the first two series beyond just obviously being rewarded for it with the goals he has.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, think there's that i think there's a bit of a i i hate the narrative where like oh guys gotta want it more like i i i hate that like i don't think his desire to win has changed at all but certainly like in pushing through contact i do think that is yeah a thing in the post season no i i i do think so yeah like i i agree with you i think it's there is a there is a of dealing with more of the mild annoyances right like of dealing with the same with the same face over and over again right over the seven game series. It's one thing if a guy bugs you on a Tuesday night in the regular season and then you

just don't see him for another six weeks. But then you have to do it all over again two nights later and there's an accumulation effect I think to that as well. Yeah. I mean, I think he is, I think he kind of there's that fighting through it a little bit more. I think there's, I don't, I don't like the, as I said, I don't like the want it more, but I do think there is a bit of the internal pressure points that come from I think there's a bit of the internal pressure points that come from hey you saw he saw Ropa Hince kind of take over in round one he saw Pavellsky come back and like I think there's a bit of that

internal pressure point of A seeing what they did to but then but like there's an emotional standpoint of pushing to that was like okay every part of the stars big like this is now every single series the stars win this series it will be largely because of what Jason Robertson has done this series. Series one, it was because of Ropei, largely because of what Rope Hintz did. Series two was largely because of what Joe Pavelski did. I think there is a bit of an emotional driving point there that Robertson finds himself. And I also think that there's a, I think he's one of those guys too where, and this is a human element to this.

And it's hard to like put like a tangible on what is intangible. but I think there is the, oh, my game still works. I think there's part of that where you start, you're not scoring, you're not finding the back of the net, and you start to wonder, okay, do you start to believe some of the outside noise that my game doesn't fit in the playoffs? And then you get that one. And then you get that, and then you have that success.

And you're like, oh, well, F all those people. Like, they were wrong. My game still works. And I think there's two parts of that. And those things are very intangible. and I'm trying to make them tangible in the moment. And it's impossible to do it. But I think those things apply because his game hasn't changed that much.

He's gotten more shot attempts. But it's not like he completely changed his game. It's not like he's trying to do something completely different. He just basically went back to doing what worked in the regular season. And it's that's, and I think part of that is all the type of things where he's very cool and collected about everything and everything. But it's those pace. where when he's driving home and he's by himself, those are the things where I wonder

how much of those factors helped drive this because I do think there's something to it. No, I do as well. And you see a couple of the goals he scored are like those kind of greasy ones around the net, right, where it's a rebound or it's a second effort. I do. Yeah. No, I was going to say, and in game four, then you also see how that kind of unlocks what the other stuff, the more skill level stuff, which is that move he makes where he kind of comes

off the wall, cuts back in, snaps a wrist shot off the post, and that is Jason Robertson as well, right? And that's just stuff that wasn't really coming into play for him earlier on. And I think, I think those two things kind of are connected in a way, even though it is difficult to sort of quantify for us. I did like, I mean, one thing I really liked was I think there was, I think there's times where players in general can get caught into a like a comfort bubble. And a lot of times the Star's power play runs with Robertson in that 131 with Robertson on the wing. And with Ben out, instead of putting, instead of bringing someone else into Ben's spot, they basically moved Robertson down to that spot with Pavelsky still in the slot and Robertson down low. And now the

stars didn't have a single power play in game four. So who knows if that would have been the plan in game four. But I felt in game three. And it's it's the it's the highlight real eye hand coordination that creates the goal that we all fall in love with. But I love that in game three. They're like, okay. No, it's the opposite. Game three was the one where they didn't have any power plays. Game four was was the one with the chances.

Sorry, game five, game five, sorry, game five, sorry, game five. Sorry, no power plays in game five. Game five, that's right. Game four is where, where he has the goals, he has the, the, the, the highlights real eye hand coordination. It's great. And we all get attached to that. But part of it comes from he's in Ben's typical spot on the power play.

They put hints in his spot. They brought Sagan in. and they bring Sagan onto the first unit. And I think part of that is also sometimes I think a player when getting put in a different situation, some guys respond well. Jason does. Some people don't. And I think that's another element too where I think I don't know like stars get a power play

tonight who knows what it'll look like. But I really like, I mean, Jamie Ben can be annoying in front of the net. Jamie Ben can, has been that guy, but Jamie Ben is not making that Jason Robertson play that, that he made in game, in game, in game four. And I like Robertson in that role. I like the variety of brings to the power play when one shift you can roll out with Jason Robertson picking posts, pick, picking corners from the top of the circle and the other one where he's down low. I like that element of his game where when Ben and Pavelsky are out there, you know they're not going anywhere else. It's not bad. It's not bad. Like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's it's, it's, it's it's, it's, it's it's it's,

to power play, but Ben is not going to spend, Ben, Robertson and Hins can rotate, right? Robertson and Hins can alternate. Ben and Robertson are not alternating. You know what that power play is going to do. Yeah. Yeah, it's much more predictable. Is there any other, well, okay, so let's give the listeners, like, something to watch for in game six here, right?

Whether it's a matchup or whether it is a specific stylistic thing, what are you, what are we looking for here to determine it? Because, you know, for all this talk about how I feel like the way these games are being changed or being played as changed in the past two, the Vegas Golden Knights still are up three, two, even though they're on the road here in Game 6. I think MoneyPuck has them at like 75% or so to still win this series, which makes sense, right?

They only have to win one of these next two. Game 7 is going to be at home. These teams are about even. That makes sense. But I'm kind of curious, like I still think this Vegas team is terrifying from how how deep they are and how many things they can do to you. What are we watching for in Game 6 that's going to really give you a sense of kind of how this game is going to shake out.

I think Pete DeBoer can be balls in when, and I think Pete DeBoer can be balls in scratch Marchman. Like I really, like, I think he's not going to, like, I think the stars, one of the reasons they're going is that Olofson was that, that spark they needed to create a line with Fox and Glendening that actually does something offensively. Marchman's been terrible in the playoffs. Like I don't, like putting him on the fourth line, he doesn't bring speed.

He's not going to bring anything to that line. that Oliveson has. We know Ben's coming back in. I think Pete DeBore can be ballsy and say like, okay, I have a Domi, Kivirond to Delandria line that's working. I have a Olives and Foxo and Denny line that actually is working. We have that top line that we know it works. Like putting Ben with Sagan and with Johnston,

it's, I think scratching the big offseason signing and being ballsy and with your season on the line, I think Pete DeBore can do that as a coach. That's something. I mean, now, if he doesn't do that, which we can assume he probably won't because it's, because this is, this is podcast fodder and, and, and, and stuff that that I would, I would throw out there. But if he doesn't do that, I really want to see from a Dallas perspective, I'm really interested to see the Harley deployment tonight. We talked about it earlier. I just watched, like, is Thomas Harley, are you going back? Is Thomas Harley being treated like your number, is he actually being treated like your number two? Or was that a one-off? and it's going to go back to this. That's the thing for me. I mean, for Vegas, the other thing that I'm just interested of,

just from a Vegas perspective, and it's easy to, it's a very cliched one, but I think it's true. I'm really interested to see how Aiden Hill responds from that third period, because he was all, like, he was, he was, he was Tasha Concarnant for 43 minutes, right? And then Tide Landria beats him with a crap shot. And, like, I want to see how Aden Hill really responds

from that third period. I said this the other day. Like, I'm curious if, and for better or worse, I wonder if the Vegas goaltending brain trust has Jonathan Quick pull him aside and talk to him about like, hey, this is, I don't know. I'm curious if that happens. Like, it's, I mean, I, yeah, it's.

Well, no, here's the thing. Like he made, but in hell did make some phenomenal saves. Oh, yeah, yeah. As game four went along game five, but I think the issue is, is that he had to make those saves, right? Because he made a lot of saves in the first three games. Very few of them were challenging ones because Dallas was not getting the looks that they

typically get because Vegas was playing such a strong defensive game and keeping them to areas they were comfortable with. As game four went along, pretty much all of game five, they started getting significantly more of those high danger opportunities. And for as well as HAL is played, he hasn't been tested to that degree. And I wouldn't trust any goalie if they have to keep facing that barrage of tough looks from close areas to hold up, right? So I think that's, that's, that's, that's really the story of the series.

It's like, he's playing really well in the first few games because they're playing so well defensively. Now Dallas starts playing the way they typically play. They've created more chances and the results have followed. And that's kind of where this game six hits its crossroads, right? And whether that continues or whether it goes back. And so I really enjoy the series. I know the game three absolutely suck, but for the most part, it's been a really close

series in the other four games. very closely contested. All of them could have gone either way. I think we deserve a game seven because we want more hockey. Game sevens are awesome. I'd love to see it. But game six really could go either way because both these teams are so close to each other. So yeah, one thing.

Yeah, one thing the stars, someone, someone said after, uh, it's not on Twitter. Like it was after game three, um, someone said there's anywhere from five to, uh, five to 10 NHL games remaining in the season. And oh, well, that's just a sad thought. Yeah, no, but that was after game three. And the stars have, the stars by winning tonight will have done their part to get us as close to 10 as possible. So.

I would like to see it. Okay, Sean, this was a blast. Looking forward to your coverage of the rest of this series and the rest of this postseason. People can check out your substack, Shapshots, right? Your podcast. We actually have a real URL now, just Shapshotshockey.com. There we go. We're moving up in the world.

world. All right. Well, follow you at John Schaberrero. Check out your blog there. We're going to have you back on later on this postseason. Enjoy game six tonight to all the listeners. We'll be back tomorrow with another episode of the HockeyPedio cast as always streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.