The Hockey PDOcast - Staying Alive

Episode Date: May 26, 2023

Harman Dayal joins Dimitri to talk about last night's Stars vs. Golden Knights game, and how Dallas was able to stay alive and extend the series. Then they discuss this summer's free agent class, players who could benefit from how this year's postseason has played out, and the risk vs. reward of Matvei Michkov.This podcast is produced by  Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Lessing to the mean since 2050. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dmitri Filipovich and joining me in studio on this sunny Friday. Great way to close out the week. My buddy, Harmon Dyle, what's going on, man? Doing great. How about you, man?

I'm doing great. I'm excited. We're going to talk about Golden Night Stars from last night. I thought it was a particularly fun game. Maybe it's after having spent so much time over the past week watching Carolina Hurricanes hockey, but I just appreciated watching two teams actually going back and forth and trying to create chances off the rush and playing sort of an up-tempo, fast-paced, high-event game like that. It was really fun to watch. So I think there's a lot of like

interesting little nuggets for us to parse from what we saw last night. Yeah, I'm excited to not talk about a sweep. That is also nice. Yeah, I think, you know, I generally people are, I'm sure people listen to the show or see my tweets and they think that I'm cheering against their team or whatever. really don't care. I generally cheer for my takes to be proven at least somewhat correct or not horribly wrong. But for the most part, I just cheer for good fun hockey. And in this case, I did want to see this series continue just so we have something to talk about over the weekend and watch some more playoff hockey.

I'm not, I'm not ready for the Stanley Cup final because the schedule is going to be like one game every other day or whatever. And then there's just so much time in between. I don't know what I'm going to do with myself. No, exactly, especially because I had planned, you look at how long every series. win in the first round. And I was thinking, okay, Stanley Cup Final, I'm expecting it to go very deep into June. Start in June, go all the way through. Pretty much into the draft almost. Exactly. And I'm, and I'm planning everything content-wise accordingly where it's like, oh, I'm going to have a short

window between the end of the Cup final and the draft. And then it's like, oh, hold on, both of these conference final could have been sweeps. I was thinking like a couple of days ago. So thankfully, it buys me a little bit more time as well. But you're right. I mean, this series, like Dallas in Vegas, especially with the way it was played last night. Like, that's really fun hockey, and I'm glad we get to see more of it. I thought it was an impressive bounce back by the stars. Like, I'm sure the Golden Knights were motivated to close out the series and, like, get some rest before the Santa Cup final, especially since their opponent is already enjoying that privilege and getting to wait

for them. And so I'm sure they don't want to extend this series, but it's clear, like, a team down three-nothing playing at home was probably more motivated, I guess, heading into that game. At the same time, though, I did wonder after game three just because it was such an embarrassing performance and such a good demoralizing from start to finish environment, including like the fans throwing stuff on the ice and everything. It just felt like it was just such a give up performance. And I was like, I don't know how you save face and bounce back from this. And the fact that the stars actually came right out of the gate, they went down one nothing early again, but they like really pushed and played an aggressive game. I was pleasantly surprised, I guess, that we got treated to that type of game as opposed to just like a roll over and it being a sweep.

For sure, especially because right at the start in the first period, you thought, oh no, the way the ice was kind of tilted. Here we go again. Dallas had struggles breaking the puck out and Ottinger looked a little shaky early and you're like, especially because you didn't know how he's going to play after being pulled out the previous game. so you can't necessarily rely on him playing at his usual elite level. So especially when Vegas gets that first goal, you're thinking, oh, this is, like, this, this might be, this game might be over pretty quickly here. And for them to sort of bounce back and it felt like early in the game, I think the biggest difference from what I noticed is the Golden Knights seem to have a lot of success breaking the puck out with control. It seemed like they were just navigating Dallas's forecheck a lot better than the reverse, especially when. when you look at that first William Carlson goal, that's exactly what it was.

It was a clean breakout, rush up the ice, and it was a continuation of that, really originating from that breakout. But after that point, it felt like Dallas was able to adjust, and it felt like they turned the notch up in terms of their aggressiveness on the forecheck. And from there, Vegas's D had trouble moving it out, and they didn't look as compact as a five-man unit. They weren't able to, like, what Dallas was. doing was they were applying a lot of pressure on the strong side.

And I didn't feel like Vegas was making decisive and quick enough decisions to sort of reverse it to the weak side and work around that. Well, I'm sure some of that was born out of just pure desperation. Exactly. In the stars perspective, right, it was a real, like, let's empty the tank. Like, this is one, like, our last ditch effort here, especially in front of the home crowd. But it was a really fun game. And after the game, Jesse Granger had this quote from Riley Smith that I thought was really

telling. and I thought spot on, where he essentially noted that, you know, they felt like Dallas in Game 4 was much more willing to open the game up and kind of trade chances. Yeah. Like it felt like, and that's much more true to who they've been this season. It was a bit strange in the first two games, especially Game 2 where, you know, they probably possibly should have felt like they should have won that game, right? They blew it late with the Ryan Suter turnover and mistake. They were playing such a conservative style. They were almost so worried about the speed that the Golden Knights.

were coming through the neutral zone with an attacking off the rush, that they were like going out of their way to try to compensate for that. And in doing so, we're neutralizing what makes them so effective all year. And so in this game, for whatever reason, they decided, listen, we're going to just get back to playing that way. And it was much more open, much more free-flowing, a lot more chances. And so I think they have to play aggressively that way. Like I think if they are going to keep extending the series

and actually give Vegas another fighting game five, it's going to have to be more of the same. It can't go back to just, all right, we won a game now let's try to squeeze out another two one you know slow-paced game like it kind of needs to be that type of environment that we saw last night for them absolutely i mean when when vegas scored that first goal after that to see how aggressive dallas's defensemen were pinching up pinching up the ice on the forecheck yeah it was like man i haven't seen this in a while in the series yeah like hayskine had like two really uh you know top-notch chances just basically

jumping in and and and being like below the hash marks which you rarely even see from him right because he's just so defensively responsible most times. Exactly. And it felt like once they sort of flipped that dial and got their D more activated, more involved, offensively, skating a little bit more, that felt like it turned the momentum of the game. It did. Now, I'm a big believer. And if you're going to go down, like go down swinging, metaphorically, should clarify,

because I think they tried to go down swinging in game three and quite literally. and we don't want to see that. I think this is what you do. You know, if you lose this way, if they wind up losing that game in overtime or if they play this way again and losing game five in Vegas, at least you can kind of go out

with like your head held high because like this is how we play and we just lost a better team, right? And that'll happen. But I do also wonder, you know, you mentioned how Audinger was looking a bit shaky early on. To his credit,

I thought he did really bounce back and make some big saves to keep them in it, right? Keep it one-nothing, keep it two-one. And that gave them a chance. And I think that also helps quite a bit. Like I do wonder in the first couple games, if they were a bit worried about onjure, generally you see that trickle down to the way you play

in terms of aggressiveness, right? You're trying to like throw them a bone and kind of cover for them and not leave them exposed. If you're going to play the way they played in game four, you are going to trade chances, which means the other team will also get chances. And if you're not confident in your goalie making those stops, then I can see why you would gravitate away from that.

But, you know, to his credit, he made the saves and he's going to need to again in game five and it's going to continue. Exactly. And that's, first of all, a testament to his mental resilience, right? Imagine how awful he would have felt after. Well, there was a lot of like, do you go to Wedgwood in game four? I know. I was like, I mean, even in that sort of situation for a young goaltender, especially who hasn't been through that adversity, who's found such quick success, a lot of times in that sort of situation, like, it just crumbles you.

But for him to then rebound in, how many times did he stay? stop Ikel, like on a partial break, on a two-on-one. It just felt like it, Ikel's like, Ikel played a phenomenal game, and he obviously still found the score sheet with the assist. But how many times Ottinger stopped Ikel off the Russian in those prime scoring positions was fantastic. And you're right, especially in that second period,

there were moments when Vegas was creating off the counterattack that Ottinger was essential in kind of holding the fourth down. Yeah, a big story for me in this series, and I noted this after game three, was through the first two rounds, Dallas had a playoff leading 15 goals scored out the rush. So far in this series after four games, it's still five to one for Vegas. Now, in the first couple games, it was, I think, a lack of effort on Dallas's part. In game four, I had the rush shots at 21, 14 for Dallas at 5.15. And that's pretty much, 21 is pretty much what they had in the first three games combined off the rush. And so if they keep playing that way,

they will eventually break through and score a few goals on Aden Hill off the rush, and that's going to be huge for them. The other note that I had was inner slot shots. And that was like a battleground that was so fascinating heading into the series because Vegas is probably the best team in the league of defending right in front of their goalie. And Dallas is so good at getting the puck in there.

Game one, Dallas had seven inner slot shots. Game two, game two, game four, game four, 12. So they basically in game four had as many shots from where you're most likely to score. on the ice, and a lot of those were from Jason Robertson, who were going to talk more in a second here. They pretty much had as many in game four as they had in the first three games combined, and so I don't think it's surprising that they finally had a bit of success offensively. I know they only scored three goals. Aden Hill was fantastic once again.

But if you're looking at like process-driven analysis, these are the signs of what Dallas did all year and all postseason to date, and that's why they got to this point, not what they were doing in the first three games. Yeah, and pretty impressive not only with Robertson, who I'm sure we'll talk about, but also the middle six, I mean, they weren't great, but they were decent considering Ben was out, Dodonov was injured, it's like why Johnson's entering this game with completely new linemates. And especially against Vegas,

where that's a really deep lineup, especially in an environment where, and I think this is an underrated component of Ikel's playoff success this spring, is he's done it without Mark Stone, right? Like on his line. What I mean, that was like when Ikel was dominating early in the regular season he was glued to to Stone and then obviously when Stone went down with injury you saw Ikel's form slip so having Eichl and stone on different lines and especially William Carlson as well playing as well as he had has on the third line Vegas is such a deep team from lines one to four and so for Dallas to not only have the top line going but to be able to at least hold serve in the middle six I think that was huge and to not have you know those lines sort of caved in their own end defending all the time and

unable to generate any offense those guys sort of held their own when you look at max domi and tautil say and i thought those guys were a little bit better a little bit more noticeable they were and also even like you put in like frederick olison in the line i know that was the old kibiranta and i guess you know makes sense fresh legs all that but like certainly had some jump to their step much more than we've seen from from other players on this team throughout the series so yeah it'll be it'll be fascinating let's talk a bit more about Robertson because I thought he had just a truly monster performance, right? It was pretty much everything we've been wanting to see from him this entire postseason, what we saw from him

with regularly throughout the regular season. I know he scored a couple goals early in the series, but this was like his trademark performance, right? He finished the game, 14 shot attempts, 11 shots on goal after having 15 and 7 games against the Cracken and round two. Five scoring chances the two goals. I selfishly wanted to see him score the overtime winner just to put a bow on that performance and get the hat trick and all that and the adulation. But I think he'll be happy with his linemate Joe Pavelsky getting that goal. You know, it was everything we wanted to see. Like it was the first goal. It was just masterful hand-eye, right? Like he bats it to himself. He tips it three times. I joked on Twitter how he should get the primary and secondary assists his

because he got the last three touches on that one. You noted the, when he hit the post, it was like such a Jason Robertson moved to get open and kind of slip through coverage and then rip it off the bar with that kind of sneaky wrist or snapshot that he has. Like it was the full portfolio, full array of offensive, offensive weapons and skills that we've come to appreciate from this guy. Absolutely. And when you look at, for example, the second goal and what sort of differentiated him was,

it felt like in game four there was no way the stars were going to beat Aiden Hill. clean, like with how well Hill was playing. But the one thing that you sort of noticed throughout the game was that there were, like, whether it would be a shot through traffic that would get blocked and then just sit in the slot for a little while or a rebound that was there for a split second, there were opportunities where the puck would be loose around sort of that inner slot or like just just outside of the blue paint. And for a lot of the first half of the game, it felt like Dallas just wasn't able to hunt down

those pucks. they weren't able to sort of win those battles, which obviously isn't easy because Vegas' D is so big. And so when you look at, for example, oh, God. And so you look at, for example, Robertson's second goal, right? It's off that shot that banks off the end boards. It's Robertson getting to that loose puck around the net first, right? And that's something that wasn't happening for the stars earlier in the game

was them getting to those loose pucks around the crease. No, definitely. And also, you know, I had Kevin Woodley on yesterday, and he noted how Aden Hill has looked apart as well, right? Like, he's not just that he's making the saves, but it's like the form with which he's making them where it just feels like he's absorbing them so cleanly and it's just everything just like it's vacuuming it up, right? And he's seeing the puck, he's positioning himself so well. He's a massive individual. And generally those types of goalies struggle once you start having to make them move a little bit, right? like his his lateral movement isn't necessarily going to be as good as a as a smaller goalie who relies on that more right like he's going to want to just basically size up that shot and then use his frame to just absorb it and so yeah i noticed that as well right in terms of like some of these broken plays and stuff and what dallas was doing i don't i never know really how to attribute it because like you know a team like the panthers has thrived off of that exact element this postseason and i don't know how much of it is just motivation how much of this effort how much of it is just

random pop clocks. Sometimes certainly. And like with Robertson, like I don't, he gave multiple efforts. I thought noticeably, especially on that second goal, right? That was like at the end of an extended shift where they'd already had three or four chances on net. So it wasn't necessarily just like a one and done. But the puck just bounced to him.

And sometimes. And so that obviously makes you look good. And then he buries it and all that. And it's easier to weave like a neat story about how he's playing better. But ultimately, sometimes the. puck just finds you and it goes your way and that was one of those nights for him last night and he winds up with the two goals and I did think he played better and was more um you know like more active trying to like impose his will on it than he had been throughout the post

season but for the most part he also just got a little bit luckier and that helps a lot yeah the puck seemed to follow him um follow him follow him everywhere but i guess even on the first goal right that hand-eye sort of around the net like that's another example of like cleaning up uh cleaning up garbage in a way where, like, that's just not just luck, for example. You know, you mentioned a ton of sort of skill that a lot of players in that position wouldn't be able to pull off, but you're right. I mean, it just felt like the puck seemed to follow him like a magnet, or he just always seemed to be in the right position.

And it was probably a combination of anticipation and some fortuitous, you know, luck and bounces as well. But, I mean, damn, that was, you know, what, like, what a dominant performance. So I just couldn't believe it. In fact, when he hit the post, I was like, man, is it going to be one of those, one of those games where it's like, you know, you'd feel bad if he has that type of performance, he only gets the one goal and, you know, maybe their season's over, right? Yeah. Let's talk on the other side about Jack Eichol because you mentioned him earlier for a player that has zero goals in this series and I believe just the three assists in the four games, he to my eye has been by far the best player in this series. and it's very rare that you see that because generally, you know,

we look at goals, points to sort of emphasize a player, especially a forwards value on a series or leaving their imprint on it. But in this case, it feels like whenever he's out there, and as the game went along, right, I don't think he really did much in the first period, for example, but then, like, he got that breakaway in the second. He got another two on one. Then in the third period, he had a couple solo dashes

and nearly created a goal for Marsha Sol 8 in the game as well. not only is he getting better as these games go along, but I've noticed there's something just so smooth about the way he moves around right now, right? Like in that third period, there was the one shift, which is a broadcast highlighted, where first he attacks Ryan Suter off the rush,

which isn't at this point, you know, all that difficult to do. But then later on in the shift, they get Suter off the ice, they bring Thomas Harley on. And pretty much from the same position, moving down that left wing, he dances around him as well and gets to the net and winds up, eventually Auditor stops it and freezes it.

But he finishes that shift with two sort of rush opportunities that he created out of thin air, right? In both instances, he got the puck in the neutral zone, didn't even have a numerical advantage, it just created it all by himself. And that was sort of a peek into the way he's playing, how confidently he's playing right now, and how easily he's creating a lot of looks for himself and others.

Yeah, especially what's really stood out to me is his poise with the puck. A lot of times even down low when you look at the, the assist that he got. A lot of times it's showing up on the power play where it just seems like he's not feeling pressure at all. A guy will be closing on him. Yeah. And it doesn't, Eichl doesn't care.

And he's able to have this level of poise where maybe if it's down low, he's able to absorb some of that pressure with his body and still slip a pass. Or he's able to sort of just smoothly make one move kind of around the sort of angle of the difference. defender so that he has an extra half a second to make a play back to the point, for example. It just feels like he's in a zone right now where he's not thinking at all, where everything's

coming instinctually to him. And as a defender, it just feels so difficult to stop him right now because you give him the smallest daylight of window to make a pass. And he's firing those pucks through those seams and he's doing it with such a level of precision that it's really really difficult to defend. But it's not even giving him the space necessarily. Obviously, you don't want to just let him walk in a place. But as you mentioned, I think the key distinction is even when you're applying that pressure, it doesn't really seem to phase. It doesn't, it doesn't, it's almost like he just then winds up biding his time and waiting for a few seconds to make the play that he, that he initially wanted to make. He's not like, it's not like you're really

rerouting him and forcing him to go, all right, well, you took away this thing. So now I don't have a backup plan. Like he's just like, all right, I'm just going to regroup a little bit here. sometimes even just keep the puck on my sticks, spin around the zone, and then get back at it. And it's really fun of watch. It's been clinical. I mean, he's got 14 shots on goal, 11 scoring chances by my count in these four games, and the zero goals, of course, so far. So, you know, if you're just talking about sort of a player being due or, you know, being a matter of time, it feels like he's due for, you know, either a two-go-goal game or a hat-trick or something here just based on how many looks he's creating.

Especially because for, you know, long stretches of this. series. I don't know if it's necessarily been, I don't think it's been a hard match necessarily, but you have the William Carlson line going up against Dallas's top line, just like Carlson went up against the McDavid and Drysaddle in the Edmonton series. So what it does is it's kind of freeing Eichel up to play against Dallas's second and third lines a little bit more. And that gives you such an advantage, right? And I think Carlson, obviously he scored last night, so it's not as sort of, he's not flying under the radar. It's not a saddle, yeah, yeah. But I think for my money, he's been overall the most underrated player on that team in terms of what he's done from a shutdown perspective.

And even in that second round, right, I think he played nearly 30 head-to-head minutes against McDavid. And in that time, I don't think the Oilers scored a single five-and-five goal. You know, when Carlson scored again, the other night, I think Rope Hens was on the ice. So it's like he's been able to neutralize a lot of the opposition's best players. I mean, maybe not so much the other night because Robertson was just excellent. Well, I'm glad you bring that up. So first three games of this series,

Carlson's out there for 21 of Jason Robertson's 45, 5 on 5 minutes. Game four, only five of his 18 minutes. And so I think that's a key distinction there as this series shifts back to Vegas as we kind of preview game five a little bit here. You know, Bruce Cassidy's done such a good job of hunting out matchups

and getting them. And with the benefit of last change, I assume we'll see a lot of hard matching of William Carlson, whenever that top line's out there. And them having as much success offensively is going to be a bit more challenging in that environment.

And so that's tricky. But to your point, like that's a testament to what a valuable chess piece William Carlson has been here, not only his work against the other team's best players, but the trickle-down effect it's had on Eichol's line to just create offensively in much softer minutes.

Absolutely. And so that's where I think if you're, if you're sort of considering things from Dallas's perspective, you need Ropei Hintz's best game in game in game five here. It can't just be sort of Robertson driving the bus. And we didn't see enough of those flashes I felt like in game four, even though he made a great play on that. Oh, the L2 winner. Yeah, in the broadcast, was noting how he kind of looked like tired every time we'd go to the bench.

He looked like he was gassed. I, you know, they played a lot of hockey. he doesn't really have an off switch, as we've noted throughout the season, right? So, like, he's not a player to preserve himself. We're kind of, like, efficiently wait for opportunities to use his energy. Every time he's on the ice, he's going full blast, and maybe there's been a bit of that cumulative effect.

But I think also just playing so many minutes. Like William Carlson, it's interesting because he's not, like, he moves perfectly well, right? He's not plotting, but he's not, I wouldn't, no one would describe William Carlson as, like, a burner, right? Oh, yeah, no way. He has this unique ability of like absorbing the other team's speed and somehow always being in the way to kind of corral them and prevent them from having that open runaway to fly through.

We saw it against McDavid as well. McDavid is always going to get his opportunities. But there was like much less room, I guess, to like navigate freely. And I think that's kind of what's happening here for hints as well. And that must be just like beyond just physically taxing emotionally must be so frustrating. I know. guy's just like every time you turn around his guy's just like there and you're oh man this guy again like just give me one shift without him right and so i i think there's an element of that but you know on

the matchup game as well you mentioned the forward matchups for dallas it's tricky because i think meryl hasten even though he's had some struggles in this series and ikel has gotten the better element a few times he's really the only guy they have from a foot speed perspective that has any chance of staying in front of them the issue for that is generally when hayskine's out there he's a accompanied with Ryan Suter. Yes. And that is a terrible matchup. As we saw, I think Ryan Suter was on the ice for both of Vegas's goals last night at 515,

in particular the second one, was a comical effort, in my opinion. It was literally like out of a cartoon where if you go back and watch it, Jonathan Barser-Soe, tap someone on the back with a stick and Suter, it's like one of those things. You know when we were younger and you have a buddy and then you go and you tap him on his left shoulder, but then you hide on the right. And then they're like to look over and then, ah, I tricked you. Yeah. It was like that where he tapped him and then Ryan Suter turns around.

And while he's turning around, Jonathan Marshallsill sneaks in on the other side. And then Suter realizes that he got duped. And so then to overcompensate, he like goes after Marsa Sault in an attempt to like cross check him or tie up his stick or hit him or whatever. And in doing so, a cross-ice pass goes literally through his skates and Marciusau because Suter has his back turn and isn't watching just taps to pop. just taps the puck into the net. And it was like about as poor of a defensive effort as you can have. And man, it's been a, he's struggled big time with Vegas' pace and speed and skill level. And so having him out there against Eichl and Marcia, so it sounds great to have Hayskin in there.

But then when you, it means, oh, that means a lot of suitor minutes as well. It becomes a lot less intriguing to me. Yeah, it was one of my biggest question marks for Dallas going into the playoffs was I felt like the D. core was a little bit thin after Haskinen and in, and Lindon. And even Lindel hasn't throughout various points in the playoffs when you think about the Seattle series, for example. I don't think he's been at his best either. And for example, with Lindell, everybody talked about in game three, the big Ottinger sort of giveaway not being able to make the clean play behind the net. But you watch how the goal happened.

And it's like after the puck was rimmed around the boards, Lindel had a 50-50 battle with Barsesot. With that size advantage, you should, Lindel should be winning that puck. all day long and not only did Lindell lose that battle but after that he wasn't even even able to you know deny that cross seam pass afterward and everybody was focused on and I'm like hold on a second here I think that was it like Andre made a mistake no doubt but that was an awful and people were even noting like Robertson and I think it was Pavelska in the weak side that they should have been there and I'm going like all those things are true but how are we forgetting what happened with Lindell on that play so

no doubt I mean what would you do in terms of of that talk do you give harley more shifts there i don't know he's like they've done i think peter boers done a good job of getting him out with he's can in for some offensive zone shifts at times like on face offs and stuff or if they're pushing for a goal it's tricky because i thought he played so well in round two against seattle he's also similarly struggled with vegas's speed and he's made a few turnovers uh when they four checked against them with their heavy pressure and so it's not as it's not as if he's playing so well, you know, where it's like, well, there's this no-brainer option. I'd still, if I was going to lose, I'd rather go down that route.

It's kind of similar to the Audinger versus Wedgwood, who should start game four thing, obviously on a smaller scale, but Harley's clearly the future, right? Like, whether he's on the top pair or not next year or the year after, he will be heavily featured in a top four role on this team. And so if you're going to lose in game five, I'd be much happier losing with him playing significant minutes and at least kind of getting a look in that role as opposed to losing because Ryan Suter is playing 25 minutes and is on the ice for another two goals against like he has been in pretty much every game in this series. So I don't know. It's tricky. I don't think there's a right

answer. And I think, you know, this is the problem of what they did at the deadline and how they just went into this postseason without really adding any blue line help. They were just like, all right, we have this personnel. We're going to roll with it. And there's not that many great options. What suitors' contracts at us? Well, I have that note here. So, he's on the books next year and the year after for 3.65 million owed 4.3 and base salary both years. Now, even though it's a 35 plus contract, right, because I think those are his age 39 and 40 seasons, according to cap friendly, because the deal isn't front loaded and because there's no signing bonus money after the first year, you actually can buy it out without having to essentially eat the full rate of it.

So if they buy them out, next year it's $0.8 million, or is that $7.83? Same the year after. Then it goes to 1.43, 1.43. I do not understand how they can, regardless of how this series ends, how their season ends, they cannot go into next season with Ryan Souter on this team. Yeah. They can't. Yeah.

And it's like the money ball. You know the money ball scene where Brad Pitt goes into the manager's room and then he's like asking the manager like not to play a player? And then the manager's like, listen, like, I'm going to play who. whatever I want, whatever. And then he just trades away the player because he's like, I'm going to take this toy away from you. Like you can't play with it anymore.

I think Pete DeBoer is an excellent coach. I think he, especially compared to some of his peers, very thoughtful, analytical, even he expresses it in different ways. Like I think he's open to this stuff. Like every other coach, though, he has a blind spot for sort of what he perceives to be like a safe defensive defenseman, right? Like a veteran guy, I feel comfortable with him out there. and you almost have to take that away

because I don't, if Brian Suter's on this team next year, I don't trust any coach to not play him way more than he should. Yeah, that's a really good point. It's hard to for the player in that situation. The reason why I was asking about his contract status is because my initial thought too was,

okay, if you go with Harley in a more prominent top pair role with Haskinen, and if Souter's on the team next season, for a veteran like that, you know, I'm pretty sure Suter would be, pissed off. Not that you should really like, oh, he'd be

upset, so don't do it. But in terms of going into next season, especially with some of the rumors that you hear about the way that he was at the end of his wild tenure, like you don't want to create problems for your... Yeah. You don't want to create problems for your locker

room if he's back next season. So that was at least just another thing, sort of another consideration in the back of my mind regarding what you do on that top pair next to Hayeskin. Yeah, I I think clearing out $3 million or whatever in Catspace the next two years to get him off the team. Yeah. And it's interesting because I actually didn't even know that.

And I was looking it up. And he got the $1 million signing bonus in the first year of the four-year deal. And then none after. And that was clearly made with the intention of keeping this route up available. And so I've seen people be like, well, I'd be shocked if they did anything like that because Jim, Jim Nell has like talked openly about basically disagreeing with all the takes out there about how he's a problem and an issue for this team and all that. Based on how this is transpired, you go into the offseason with some clear eyes, and I think the decision is going to be pretty obvious.

And if so, it's going to be absolutely hilarious for a guy to be bought out from two teams back to back like this. And I'm very curious to see if anyone else picks him up next year. I'm sure if he was playing on a third pair role with some penalty kill minutes and he was playing like 16 minutes a night, I'm sure he would be maybe not more effective, but less detrimental than he is now a 38-year-old playing 24 minutes a night or whatever this postseason. Like, this clearly isn't ideal. But anything that picks him up needs to be wary of the fact their coach probably will wind up playing him more than he should.

And so I feel very strongly. In other words, just saying once he's bought out, he'll probably end up in Vancouver. And he's playing a significant role, yes. All right, Haram, let's take our break here. And then when we come back, we'll talk about a few other topics, close out the show on a, on a fun note and looking forward to that. So you're listening to the Hockey P.D.Ocast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. Your number one spot for Flames coverage can be found on Flames Talk with me, Pat Steinberg.

Exclusive interviews, trusted insiders, and the latest news. Listen live weekday afternoons and four or stream the Flames Talk podcast on demand. All right, we're back here in the Hockeystogast with Harmon Dial and Studio. Harm. You've written a couple articles recently on the athletic, And I wanted to get into them with you, just because they're fresh in your mind. You obviously put a lot of work into this.

And so I think it would be good conversation material for us here. I think the first one is you wrote a piece with, I think this one was with Shana Goldman, right? It was kind of UFAs this summer and how their postseason performance might have impacted their stock and their value around the league. And so there are a few interesting names on there. You know, just on the theme of this Golden Knight Stars series,

I can't help but think that Ivan Barbashev is a guy who is going to wind up signing a contract that I will not like this summer, even though he's been fantastic for the Golden Knights. He's been wildly productive. I think he's got five goals and eight assists so far. His 11-5 on five points are tied with the jack. I go for the team lead.

Like that line has been incredibly productive. He's been everything they need. He's a Swiss Army knife. All that coaches love him. Whoever signs him, I think, is going to wind up regretting that deal because it seems like a deal that's going to be too many years for too much money.

Yeah, it seems like he's the type of player that a lot of GMs will just salivate over, right? Big body, playoff performer, plays in the hard areas. Of course, yeah, all that stuff. Wins a lot of battles, pretty responsible defensively, can play both wing and center, although he's a lot better as a winger than he is a center. I mean, but, yeah, he can quote unquote, play center. But you know, teams will be like, well, in their own mind, it'll be a feature. It's just like Ryan Seuter can play top pair of defensive minutes.

You can. I don't think you should, but yeah, I'm Barbuchiff similarly can play center. Right. And that'll be all it takes for a bidding war to kind of start for for barbership, especially because, oh, he's won a cup before two. Like, he's just checking off all these boxes. And he's a great player, don't get me wrong. He's been phenomenal. Plus with Vegas, what you'll notice as well is in previous playoff runs, they would struggle to, like they'd get a lot of shots, but maybe in terms of fighting for chances on the inside, a lot of those greasy rebound deflection type plays, they didn't have enough of those types of forwards, which Barbishav has added that element to Vegas's top six.

So taking nothing away from what he's done in the playoffs, because he's been such an essential piece, an excellent addition for Vegas. But you're right. I mean, this is ripe for a July 1st overpayment. And it's so, it's so situationally dependent, right? I think generally such a significant part percentage of the league you would say this about as well, right? There's very few players that regardless of fit or scheme or contract or teammate quality are just going to be really good regardless, right? For a lot of players, it's about finding the right spot and obviously here playing with Eichol and Marsha's so in these minutes.

You're right. Like I've been very impressed with his playmaking ability in tight in particular, right? It's like one thing to win those battles, but then he's made a lot of like really small area. nice passes to teammates to give them scoring chances as well, which is very valuable and a skill that they've struggled with in the past. But, man, I worry, and I know our pal, Thomas Drans, is very worried that he's a guy high on the Canucks list as a potential center option. And what they're going to wind up with is probably another winger who's making more money

than they should. But yeah, I mean, this is what the playoffs do, right? It's like, if you make a long run, you produce and you excel in a role, a team's like, well, we're going to get this guy without really realizing that they're not getting them for this role they're succeeding in. They're going to get them and then try to put them in a role that is just above their means, I guess. But a theme that I've been thinking a lot about is the players that will benefit a lot from this postseason because we always look for lessons and takeaways is guys who can forecheck and apply pressure and stuff. It seems like that has been

the general takeaway from this postseason about how valuable of a skill that is. Not that it's new, but it's been really on the forefront. And so guys who can disrupt like that and apply pressure and then turn it into chances, I feel like every GM that's watching right now is going to be just salivating over the idea of adding someone like that. Right. And this is where you've obviously got to be careful too because it's not just when it comes to guys that can forecheck and win battles, like you were alluding to, it's one thing to just win the puck back. It's another to be able to actually make the next play afterward and actually be able to have the offensive awareness,

especially if you're trying to sign a guy to play. in a top nine role, that guy needs to understand and have the offensive instincts for how to support star players, how to get open, how to be in the right positions to when you're cycling the puck down low, understanding where your star center is going to place the puck into space next and then understanding where that star player is then going to go next and being able to make those little give and goes. the distinction between a guy who just four checks and win battles versus a guy who can win those battles be that complementary piece but then also help continue plays and finish chances, there's a big distinction between the two and in terms of how productive

those types of players will be in prominent offensive situations and that's, I think, a big part of what teams need to be really wary of, as they're sort of trying to evaluate these types of for checking forwards. Yeah, especially for someone who turns 28 this season, the way Barbership does. It's kind of, it's not over the hill yet, but it's reaching a point,

especially if you're talking a long-term deal where that's where it gets into scary territory for me. You know, another player you had on that list, and I was surprised to see the stock up next to his name was Ryan O'Reilly, because I know that he scores that the big goal and whatever, game three of round one against lightning to send it into overtime.

helped that come back. He produced well. I thought to my eye and he might have been injured. I mean, you never know, certainly. But in that panther series, I was pretty wary of how he looked moving around. Not that he's ever been the smoothest skater, the most fleet of foot, but I thought there were some pretty concerning signs about, especially, you know, if he's going to go back to Toronto on like a hometown deal or whatever, that's one thing. But if you're a team that is viewing him as a top flight center who can move the needle playing with whoever he plays with, which is what he used to be in the past. I just, I'm not sure those, that's his reality at this point. Yeah, that's fair. I was more looking at it and maybe this is where I was more thinking of the overall narrative of his time

in Toronto where I was thinking about when that trade was made, for example. Well, he had such a miserable regular time in St. Louis and people were talking about him as, oh, Toronto out of the next Nick Falino totally washed up and in my head I was like okay he's not definitely not the player he once was

but he can help a team in a middle six role and that's what I thought he did in the playoffs and from that perspective I guess I was thinking more of his time in Toronto as a whole

and what it did for the narrative of where he's at in his career as opposed to strictly the playoffs because you're right I thought he was really good in the Tampa series and then in the Panthers one he wasn't very good

so I mean yeah his 5-on-5 number is absolutely cratered. You know, I think he's got a lot of utility, like, on the power play and kind of net front still. And he showed that. I just think if he's going to play with other top players, which I think Toronto, one of their mistakes in that series was trying to use him as more like a third line center with guys who aren't that good and hoping that he can carry them.

And that wasn't working at all. They never really made the adjustment full time of playing in with other star players in the top six. And I think that was a bit of an oversight. So I think that's the player he is at this point, which is still valuable. I just think that the perception of him, I'm not sure what it is because people were so down on him at the trade because of his numbers in St. Louis. But then I also wouldn't be expecting him to all of a sudden be a top or top center for you. For sure. Yeah.

He's reaching a different point of his career, which is still a valuable one, but I think is going to require a bit of recalibration. Now he's achieved so much in his NHL career that he can probably, if he wants to just stay in Toronto, he can go for under market value. wants to go back to St. Louis, he's probably not going to sign top, you know, top dollar deal. He's probably going to go back on a bit of a sweetheart deal as well. But he's been in the NHL since 2009 as well, which I think is notable. Like he's 33 years old, but he's been playing very heavy competitive minutes for a long time as well. And I think you're seeing some of that in some of those concerns that I highlighted. Anything more than two years, despite what I said about my thought of him sort of rebuilding a stock a little bit from

that low from the point of the trade, even in having said that, anything beyond two years on his next contract would worry me. I would be very hesitant, which I'm pretty sure a team will offer him more than two years. It'll be at least one, I think. Well, you know, what I think is interesting is we generally associate the playoffs with the game slowing down and, you know, battles in front of the net become more valuable in winning some of those like greasy battles and tight areas like we're munching with Barbashev. That certainly is important. There's a lot of value in that but if anything i think the game almost it becomes even more valuable more important to be able to either skate fast or process the game fast because almost if you can especially as you go further into

the playoffs the quality of competition becomes so much greater and also you know teams can kind of pick on you a bit more if you're a bit of a weakness in a certain area and so the game i don't know if necessarily speeds up but i feel like your ability to make quick decisions under pressure becomes highlighted even more right maybe it's because every single one of those mistakes winds up being a disaster if it goes in the back of your net. So maybe our perception of that is a bit different. But I'm pushing back a bit on the idea that like skating doesn't matter as much in the playoffs because the game slows down because I don't really think that's the case.

Oh, for sure, especially because I think part of what's happened in these playoffs is you've kind of whittled it down to some of the best forechecking teams that are left, right? And in terms of how quickly they close on you, obviously Carolina's eliminated now. but you also saw what Florida's forecheck has done the entire playoffs. The way that both Vegas and Dallas are able to apply pressure when they're at the top of their games, these are teams that don't give you a lot of time to sort of make plays. And that's where obviously one side of the equation is you've got to be able to process quickly so that when you get the puck, you're not caught taking that extra half a second

to make a decision for how to make the next play on the breakout. But also on the reverse, you need to be able to do the same as a five-man unit in terms of closing on the other team's defense so that they can't break the puck out and so that you're creating problems for them especially because sometimes especially against some of the better defensive teams you might not have a ton of opportunities

to just carve through the neutral zone with possession and create a lot off the rush necessarily. Yeah, no, I think that's fascinating. Certainly something topic we can probably revisit as we get closer to free agency, right, especially with some of these names becoming available and all that. Okay, let's close a show talking about Matt DeMichkov because you wrote a big feature,

or not a feature on him. I feel like when you say a feature, it's like, oh, you went and like spoke to him and got all these quotes about him. Went to Moscow. Yeah, no. But you watched a lot of his tape

and then kind of broke down his game and what people should expect from him, both the good and bad, similar to, you know, what we talked about with Connor Bedard a while back on a show that we did together. Let's talk a little bit about him because as we get closer to the draft here,

this is going to become one of the big talking points, right? It's going to be like, who winds up eventually, stepping up to the podium and picking them, how soon is it, whether it's in the top five or whether it's a few picks after that. I'm fascinated about all this. I can't wait to find out what the answer to that question is, and I can't also wait to see how his career progresses into being an NHL player, hopefully at the end of 2026.

Yeah, he's such an interesting prospect to watch. I think right off the bat, I was really, really impressed with the skill set. Not only because, like, it's one thing to be, let's say, a 5 foot 10 winger and ripping it up in, you know, some junior league. Right. But for him to be productive against men in both the VHL and then, of course, in the KHL, you know, 20 points and 27 games like that, that's really impressive. Now, there is a caveat, right? After I published that piece, somebody reached out and sort of mentioned that, okay, eight of those 20 points were against the Klingin Red Stars and their goalie from what that person knows. is like awful.

Okay. So it's like, okay, that's, that's a, that's a, his own team. His own, his own team is awful as well,

right? Um, but in having said that, still on a team without any talent to be productive at any level, despite still having a, like a lot of people will look at his body and be like, oh, like,

understandably he, like he's so thin. A lot of people think he's closer to like five, nine. Um, and so they have, they have, uh,

questions about translatability. And fair enough. But my thought process is also, So, okay, but once he's had a few years to mature physically and pack on some size, what could that do for, for example, the explosiveness of his skating? What could that do for his ability to win puck battles? What could that do for his overall ability to protect the puck, especially when you combine it with how elusive he is on his edges, right?

Because Mitch Kov, he isn't the fastest in a straight line. Like he moves, he's not slow. Like a lot of people, he's not Johnny Goddrow, right? which is what a lot of people sort of expect when they think about five foot 10 winger. But he's so elusive on his edges, the way he can spin off checks down low. He's got really special offensive creativity. Like his mind, his hockey IQ. That's honestly one of the biggest reasons I'm bullish about his game is how he processes in reads,

especially because he's set so many goal scoring records, especially in previous U-18 tournaments, but to see the playmaking and the vision as well, especially towards the end of the season, how it evolved, all of a sudden I was looking at him going, I think this guy can become a dual threat player, not just a guy who scores a lot of goals, but can set his linemates up as well.

And even the way that he's creating his offense, he's doing it all himself. Like he's not the type of sniper where it's like he needs somebody to defeat him the puck. He's an independent creator. And I just saw, in terms of offensive skill set, too many tools to like for me anyway the way like if you're at let's say five in your montreal man i feel like it'd be really really tough to pass up on that yeah the i thought you did a great job

of highlighting a lot of that skill set and kind of what makes them special and stand out and um i think with all of that in mind as an offensive creator like if you just think about the landscape at the n hl right those players are very difficult to find and when they are available in the open market, they are very expensive, right? Teams pay for goals, teams pay for points. And so an ability to get him as a potential needle mover offensively at the draft, I think is worth all the risk, and there's a ton of risk, right?

Like his contract runs through 2025, 2286. You don't get any hands-on ability to control his development, right? You don't know how the next few years are going to go from where he's going to be playing, what that's going to look like in terms of usage and ice time. even after his contract expires it's still not necessarily a absolute guarantee that he will come over and you will have him at the end of 2026 like i acknowledge all of that i just think the upside with the way the game is played today and how valuable that skill set and expensive it is otherwise if you have a chance to draft him after the first few picks in this draft i think the risk greatly out or the rewards are greatly outweighs the risk and so i'm with you as soon as you start getting into that four or five range especially with montreal at five where part of the appeal is that is the timeline, right? Yeah. Where if we think about it, it's like, all right, he comes over 2026 in the spring.

He'll be 21 years old. You get, you're going to burn the first year of his ELC, whatever. You still get hopefully two ELC years under a million dollars apiece for a top line winger. And at that point, you've got, if you're Montreal, you probably have pure Luke Dubois at that point. Yeah. With Caulfield, Suzuki, and they're all like in their prime years. And you've had the past two, three years to plan accordingly for this window. I just think it's such a competitive advantage, obviously, if it works out that way.

But it's, it's so alluring to me. If I was, if I was, if I was, if I was, if I was a GM, I'd be like, man, this, this, this, this, this is our closest or most realistic path towards greatness. For sure. I also think it's great to have proof of concept where when you mentioned, for example, Mitchcov, not having the elite speed in the straight line, but having the elite edge work, we've seen it with. Like a lot of scouts were wondering the same thing about Caprizov. When they were talking about him coming over to Minnesota, this is after Caprizov had established himself as a top flight, KHL player and everybody was like, oh, is he going to come over to Minnesota?

A lot of the conversation about, okay, how is his game going to translate? What's the ceiling going to be? One of the big question marks is, okay, he's not the fastest is a straight line, but he's got the elite edges. And of course we've seen with Kaprizov now that it hasn't mattered, that still plays in terms of what he can do when you combine it with all of his other tools. and that's with Mitchkhov as well. Like he's got,

it feels like he's, he's just got every offensive tool. Now it's going to take, he's far from a finished product, right? You look at his defensive play. There's a lot to work on there. Whatever, defense. But, and that's where I think with the development too,

like I can, like, despite how high I am on Mitchcock, like I can understand a team sort of going, we don't have control over his development. We want to build him up so that, We rounded his defensive game and we teach him how to win battles and we help him bulk up weight and help him reach the next level with his skating. And there's a lot that you'd want to do development-wise to help him reach that superstar ceiling that you don't have control over. And so you can understand the risk from that perspective.

But like you said, man, like I see I see just shades of a future superstar there in terms of his potential. and given how rare it is to find those types of talents, I think it's worth a swing. I completely agree. I can't wait to monitor this story and talk about it more as we finish up the postseason and get into draft season. We'll be doing that on the show. Harm, I'll let you plug some stuff on the way.

I'll let the listeners know what you're working on and what you've got scheduled moving forward. Yeah, I've got a lot of pieces coming up. I think pretty soon here for the Canucks fans I follow. I'm going to be doing a big feature I've been working on with JT. Miller sort of like powerful but polarizing personality. I had a great conversation with him at the end of the season that I've been working on for a while.

And then some national sort of ideas as well, looking into, you know, more offseason stuff in terms of like, you know, some bad contracts that teams might be looking to dump this summer, looking at every team sort of like cap situation, how much flexibility they have. A lot of, again, just offseason preview-y type stuff. Awesome. Well, keep up the great work. looking forward to checking all that out. We'll have you on the show again soon.

And that's it for this week. We'll be back Monday with another week of PDOCAS, as always here on the Sports Night Radio Network.