The Hockey PDOcast - Summer Series 2.0 Part 5 with Kyle Raftis

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Kyle Raftis and John Matisz to discuss the impact new NCAA rules have had on team building at the CHL level, different development paths for young players, the way Brady Martin and Chase Reid's stock rose the past two seasons, communication with NHL teams about the prospects they've drafted, transferable skills from major junior to pro hockey, CHL trades involving a million future draft picks, and the Soo's utilization of analytics.There will be a couple of new episodes each week that will be Patreon-exclusive only for our subscribers, which means that they won't be appearing on this free feed. To gain access to all of that content make sure you've subscribed to the PDOcast's Patreon. The subscription provides you with the ad-free version of every single episode we do this season, and they will be available for you to listen as soon as we're done recording.We've also finally got some merch available for our listeners! If you'd like to get your hands on a PDOcast shirt or hat to rep the show, you can do so here. If you've already subscribed to the Patreon, one of the perks that comes with it is that you get a discount on all of the show merch.I'd also recommend subscribing to our Youtube channel. We'll be posting full shows on there more regularly this season so that you can watch along with us. I'm hoping to grow the channel this year, so each subscription, like, and comment is greatly appreciated. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Progressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey P.D.O.cast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey P.D.O. cast. My name is Demetri Filippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, John Mattis. John, what's going on? Not a whole lot. We got a special guest today keeping that summer series going. Another interview with someone inside the game. So I suppose let's get to it. Yeah, the summer series rolls on. I feel like at this point, we really are stretching the definition of the summer part, summer part at the very least we're into september hockey season is here uh preseason starting in a couple weeks we've had scott wedgward on for the player perspective recently we had dad mus on for the coach's perspective now we're we're going to get into the gm side of things and joining us today is kyle raftis uh the GM of the sue

greyhounds in the ohhl Kyle what's going on man not too much guys how are you we're good we're excited to have you on this is going to be a fun one I've got a a nice array of topics to get into with you I'll start off with this. You are going into year 13 with the Sue Greyhounds now. It's been a while since you've been on the job. And I think you've had, you know, firsthand experience over that time and how much the sport has evolved and changed. How much the league itself, the OHL, maybe in the way it operates, has changed

particularly over the past year or so, let's say with the eligibility rules changing to allow for CHL players to go over to the NCAA and not. necessarily have to pick one or the other. I've spoken to various major junior executives in the WHOHL and the OHL who have expressed kind of how much this new landscape or reality for them and their team building approach has changed in that time. And I think we're still sort of in this learning curve or kind of experimentation process to see how it's all ultimately going to shake out. But what they've sort of common sentiment has been is that teams used to operate under this sort of sense of, well, when our top players and our top prospects hit that sort of 19 year old,

let's say, season, that's when we're really going to get into our competitive window. Our team's going to be stacked. We're going to be set up nicely. And we're sort of timing things out through that or trying to kind of build up and crescendo towards that. Obviously, that's become a bit more complicated or unpredictable now that we've seen various players at that age, move on to the NCAA and switch teams. Have you sort of found that?

we're still early on in that phase, but just in terms of maybe how your own approach in putting this team together and operating within the league circles is having to change, since these rules kind of got implemented. Yeah, I think definitely there's, everyone always kind of talked about a junior cycle a lot of times

and you'd kind of build around a group. Like we've always tried to be, I don't think we've changed it entirely because I think now we've still kept the mindset of, you know, you're keeping an eye, this year and then you have a good idea of what next year looks like. But down the road outside of that, I think it's too hard to predict. So I don't think you could kind of say, hey, you know, the 16

year olds or the 2010 births. I know that makes us all feel old, but it's, it's that situation where you couldn't just say, I really like this group. We're going to build it for down the road. Now, I do think there's an advantage in terms of how things have kind of shifted. And I think we've kind of trying to take the mindset of like you're just, you're there to develop players. And, you know, We've had a pretty good track record now, guys kind of sticking around and wanted to be a part of it. And I think when they're in a situation where they feel like they're developing and that they're going to be there. But I definitely think, you know, even in transactions, there's been an adjustment because before you were trading for, let's say, a 16 or 17-year-old player, you could pencil them in your lineup for the next three years. But now it might be, hey, you do your job really well.

At 18 months, they could be gone, whether that's the American League now as a 19-year-old or, you know, whatever other avenues they look at. but it's definitely changed the player pool a little bit too because it's also that situation of there's a lot of players every year that want to play in the league and it's kind of been interesting as much as there's been some players kind of jumped to NCAA programs the league put out something kind of in August where it said the league's actually gotten older so I think you're seeing more of that bulk of 17 and 18 year olds and probably less 16 year olds in the league because now they're kind of given some time whether that's playing junior B or whatever it might be so I think think eventually once everyone wraps their mind around it, it's probably a very good step for

development. But right now, it's funny. Like, we just wrapped up our training camp or we just kind of exhibition games left. But it used to be this kind of conversation that a 17 year old that was close, if you didn't sign them, they probably have a commitment. You'll never see them back again. Because at that time, they weren't going to risk it to come in at 18, whereas now you'll see those players come to three training camps and they're still coming at 18, 19. So it's kind of shifted it that way. And it's just a little bit more of, I think it puts more pressure on, you know, the individual development plan for everybody and then just making sure you're on the same page with it, but it's definitely made the competition for spots a lot higher for sure. Well, one of the pushbacks that I got to that

sentiment that I, that I outlined was, and listen, the WHL, I think generally got more impacted than the OHL last year with a particular at the top with guys like Gavin McKenna and Keenan Berhoff, but sort of there's been a talent redistribution maybe on the higher end potentially that we're going to see down the line, but it's also been somewhat compensated by maybe an influx of different talent that's coming in to the CHL, right? Whether it's Americans who would have previously maybe gone from the USHL to the NCAA, now all of a sudden using the CHL as sort of an intermediate step for their development and seeing that as an opportunity and taking some of those spots,

do you see that as kind of an interesting wrinkle to this in terms of compensating for some of that talent that's coming out being brought back in just in maybe in a different form or be a different route? Yeah, I think that's definitely it. I think it before it's, like I said, you were kind of grabbing players at a younger age and pushing them at that spot. Now it's kind of finding them different programs underneath you to kind of develop along. So that way they come in more so I'd say OHL ready where that's, I think,'s been a little bit of the difference. So the only downside I see to some of it, and this is just kind of selfishly, it used to if you had, it's more so the American League role and seeing how that's going to play out truthfully with it.

but it's cool when you have those 19-year-old world junior players up against you in practice every day and pushing you seeing what that part is about. But I think it's like anything if there's still going to be those high-end 19-year-olds in the league and you have a lot of high-in 18-year-olds are self-included. I think that's kind of the guys that are going to push your program. And I think that's usually what it does. And not just pushing it on the ice, but just off the ice in that culture and that spot. And for a lot of our guys, it's kind of been a message of like,

you want to be the guy at some point before you kind of make that jump. And if you're ready, then you think that's best and your family decides that's best, then we're all for it. But it's been interesting seeing the divide because we have a few American players that had opportunities to jump this year that are 19. And they understand kind of the NCAA how it's built. And they'll probably jump at 20, I would imagine. But it's funny, the Canadian side of it, and I'll be, I put myself in this boat,

you don't even understand how that game's played as much. Like you're aware of it, but you don't, you didn't watch it, you can grow up with it. So you didn't see it as much. So it's funny. I think a lot of the Canadian, some of the Canadian agents are a little bit more like, hey, what do we do with this? This is coming at us where the American side of it's been a little different. Like, hey, I'm going to be here at 19.

I want to step in as a freshman at 20 and kind of see that development curve for them. So I think it's still going to take us a couple years to get through it because I think it's an adjustment for everybody top to bottom. And it's just kind of seeing how it's all playing out. It's been interesting. But it's one of those things you can't get too kind of worked up and it just kind of have to do what you do best and trust that you're doing the right thing for the players. And that's what we're here for, whether it's coaches, players,

you know, scouts, you want to push them onto the next level. And if they feel like that's a great opportunity for them, then you want to be a part of that. So that was two years ago that the NCAA removed that ban on CHL players. Like I think it was August 2024. So there's been a lot of time to process this and to see the moving pieces and just, you know, leagues reacting in terms of, you know, the import draft changing.

And you mentioned, you know, the OHL saying that it's actually getting a little bit older. Like there's some trends developing. helping here. Kyle, do you think water's found its level? Like, do you think that when you look at what's going on now, like you can almost predict, okay, in five years, it's going to look similar in terms of the types of players available, when they leave, et cetera? Or do you think we still don't have sort of enough sample size to determine what this new landscape ultimately looks like? No, I don't think we're there yet. I think there was such an influx of players jumping that in just seeing what was happening in the portal and guys kind of getting bounced out to make room for a

lot of those guys. I think that still has to flush itself out a little bit because I think there's a situation where to be fair, the NCAA, like there was all of a sudden 300 players that they thought were ineligible to play for them. And all of a sudden, these guys become available. And if anyone knows the roster spots in the NCAA, there's not that many to compensate for that. So there's been a lot of shuffling on that side of it. So I think eventually, you know, I think we'll get to that point. And I think people will understand kind of when it's time to go, what the right fit is. You know, we used to kind of laugh because there was a window there where everyone wanted their day on Instagram to say this is where their commitment was to nobody knew when they were going what their

year was but everyone kind of wanted to have their day and then okay that's great for you and let's get back to work though which is what put you in that situation to begin with so I think it's coming but yeah it's definitely I think on both sides of it I think everyone's a little bit you know it's kind of like keeping up with the Joneses everyone wants to you know look like they're out there building their program and I think it's made it a little bit difficult on both sides but at the same time I I think there's still a little bit of time before we get an idea how this is going to shake out. And truthfully, the positives and negative is of both of it. Because I think there's going to be some positive cases that it really worked out well.

And there's going to be some negative cases too of just kind of seeing what fits. So I think every player's in a different spot. And I think that's the real intriguing part right now. I mean, there's a lot of differences between the two paths. One of the more interesting ones for me to consider, especially if you're using one of those leagues as a top prospect for, you know, preparing for the next level and getting yourself. ready to go pro in an NCAA you're realistically playing what like 35 to 40 regular season games um it's

more of a practice heavy schedule more all kind of away from game situation stuff i guess whether it's skill training or or in the weight room whereas one of the selling points i imagine for going the CHL route for every young player is you're going to simulate what it's like to be a pro not necessarily in terms of when you're playing the games but just the volume of them like having to play potentially 75 to 80 games and then getting into the playoffs in front of those crowds, but also those game situations that are tougher to replicate, regardless of how competitive your practices. Do you view that as like an important selling point here in terms of the development for

some of these players to get that under your belt and see what that's like before you eventually turn pro, hopefully? Yeah, I don't really like to speak negative about anything. But I think when you're looking at a lot of young players, like just going through, you know, their training camps, you know, that's 68 game schedule. You're looking at it. Like, I think a lot of these guys need reps at those high levels. And I think that's something that, you know, to build that confidence.

And we talk about it internally all the time. Like I can tell you, hey, John, you're a really good player. But you might go through your first two weeks and you haven't got a point. And you've never gone through that in your life. And it's just you go through those ebts and flows of playing against older players and kind of developing on that side of it. And I think the only way you really build that confidence in your game is through those reps and getting through that side.

of it. And I think, you know, you can do a lot of skill work. Time in the gym's crucial at this age, especially, you know, but I believe now it's kind of a 12 months sport, as sad as that is to say about everything. And I think that training's got to take place at those spots. But I do think it's important for these players to get those reps being pushed every night, being able to, you know, learn to take care of your body, learn to prepare in and out and to go through those tough segments in your, in your year. And you know, it can snowball the right way for you, but it can also snowball the other way for you. And how do you pull yourself out of it? And you know, and to go yourself out of it and those are kind of that part of that you don't want to say grind because

that's always kind of a negative condensation when you're talking about it but I think it's really important for these players to kind of be pushing themselves in that and I know for our guys like we skate for a few weeks just to get started and they haven't got a game yet they're almost sick of hearing from coach about okay let's put this into some some situation here let's they're sick you know we had a pretty intense camp here this year we had a you know a full new staff so I think everyone was really pushing themselves and you know their their good buddies off the ice but I think they're looking for, you know, to take some of that physicality on a different team at some point.

I love that. Let's talk about Chase Reed. So arguably nobody stock rose during his draft year as high as Chase. And his origin story has been told many times at this point. You know, he plays 18 games in the North American Hockey League in 24, 25, like kind of in obscurity. Like that's, if we're being honest, that's where he was because he had been cut by his USHL team.

So, but you guys. had his rights after select him in the seventh round of the OHL draft and then he explodes upon arrival and sue Saint-Marie and the rest is history. But I'm curious about your perspective on this player in terms of like you saw something in him to select him in the seventh round. Maybe you know, you didn't see, you know, what was coming in terms of him going so high in the NHL draft. But yeah, what was your perspective where like this kid's in the in the States and he's not really finding his path and then he ends up in the Sioux and he takes off. What was that all about? Yeah, it's an interesting one because going back when we selected him, he had a great,

there were still some spots in his game where I think you could see it, but you could see flashes of it. The skating was there. He wasn't as tall at that point. I think he was around six feet, right shot the fenceman had a great brain and it was kind of a situation where weren't sure he was going to land, ended up taking him in that seventh round. And then he comes to our development camp and that's where he first really started to pop. I thought like, hey, like there might be something here. I didn't think he was necessarily ready at 16 because he's a, he's a really late birth in December 2.

So we kind of pitched him as, hey, he's going to, if you put him with the 08 development wise, like he'd be right up there. So, you know, he went to one of the US festivals, I believe, in Buffalo. And I think that's where it really started. You can see the confidence in his game really started to build. And obviously, you know, you try and keep tabs on what your players are doing and keep the communication lines open. And I was even, myself and a couple of our scouts were in Pittsburgh at the USHL showcase. And when he got kind of healthy scratch, we thought, okay, like, we're hoping to

see how he was going to do. They had a kind of an older lineup at the time. And that's when that conversation kind of started about maybe making the jump. And, you know, we're kind of going over the opportunities and looking at it. And then when you kind of got off to that start in the North American League, you're still, it's a different league than what he would be jumping into us. But we had kind of an opportunity. Andrew Gibson was a right-hand shot. He was going to be joining he was a second round pick of the Detroit Red Wings was traded to Nashville in a trade and he was going to be going to World Juniors for a month

and we thought, you know what, Chase is a great opportunity for you to kind of jump in, get some minutes and we got us transfer everything signed off on and he jumped in and it was funny because you try and undersell your guys a little bit when you're kind of dealing with the coaching staff and especially he was still 16 at that point. It was a situation where like, hey, let's see what he can do

and every night it was like, I was laughing after like the second period they were coaching staff looked at me like yeah power play right it's like yeah power play it was just kind of that fast of just like giving him and i'll give him credit like he was kind of a sponge when he came in he was demanding a video he wanted to like he didn't have that chip on his shoulder of like hey i got screwed in this situation because you could see that happened to a lot of players it's just like i've been this is my 13 this year like what's going on but like he was just like hey you guys believe in me like are going to do whatever i can and it was kind of like almost like a boyish charm to it like like

like, hey, what can I do? How can I do this? And not in a bad way. And it was just kind of very, it was cool to see because his family and himself have so much trust in the people that believe in him that, you know, they'll, hey, if we need them here this night, we'll get them there. And it's cool to see that, you know, it's him skyrocket. But it was one of those cool things that you could kind of see it coming before it

even did because towards the end of that year, we would have a lot of talk. Like we had a bunch of guys drafted, Brady Martin went really early. And at the end of every call with NHL teams, they would just say, like, hey, just a quick question, you'd be on a small conference goal. If the Reed kid was still eligible or, you know, where do you see him going? And there goes, as soon as every guy was bringing that up, like, we're joking, where can we slot him in on our draft board about it? So he knew he was going to get off to a great start next year.

So it was really cool to be a part of, truthfully. Yeah, it's back to back years now, right? Maybe a bit of a different story. But I remember the year prior, Brady Martin was one of the bigger risers throughout that draft process, especially leading up to the draft culminating in the predators. as you mentioned, taking him fifth overall. And he had a bit of an interesting year this past year where he gets that sort of, I think, first initial taste

of what the NHL is like. I believe he got three games under his belt to start the year with the Preds and then winds up coming back to the Greyhounds and playing the rest of the year for you guys. I'm curious for sort of that kind of process, right, in terms of getting your feet wet somewhat at that level, seeing what that's like,

and then all of a sudden kind of coming back and reintegrating yourself into the CHO. What was that sort of like for them last year? because I know we have a lot of, as much as I've got a ton of development questions for you and like niche, CHL things, ultimately, this is an NHL focus program. We've got a lot of listeners who want to familiarize themselves more with these guys. And so you have a, I think, a unique insight into sort of what that process was like for him last year. Yeah, it's tough because you go from, you know, I think he's been the guy, obviously, on your team.

And then he goes into situation. They set him up. He's living at Philip Forrestberg's house and kind of getting some good taste of things in exhibition. and then all of a sudden it's funny with these guys sometimes because then all of a sudden you get in the regular season, gets a couple games, and he's kind of sitting out a few games,

and you're kind of unsure. So he, you know, he sat out a few games on one road trip, and then we kind of got the call that they were going to send them back to us. And it takes a little bit to get the guys kind of more accustomed to things. And it's not just the speed. It's just kind of, you know, when you're sitting out watching it, there's only so much you can do,

and that's where you go back to. And Brady is one of those guys that he needs his reps. He needs to be on the ice. And, you know, that's where he wants to be part of it. But it took him a bit to get accustomed to everything. Obviously, he's somebody that, you know, personality-wise, walks in and everyone knows he's in the room. And the guys, we're obviously excited to have them back.

But it's funny with CHL-wise, with a lot of those guys, you almost don't have them because by the time they get sent back, you're almost in November. And then they go to World Juniors in December. So it's kind of, and then, unfortunately, it was hurt in that tournament. So it's kind of funny. A lot of times those guys, when they go that high, like you do have them, but they're kind of always in and out with the rest of. of the way. So you're trying to kind of be a part of a team and, you know, pick up this system. Now you have a lot more other people in your head. You have the development coach, you know, with an NHL team. You have, you know, their management. A lot of times these guys have their

own separate guys on the side. Then you have our stuff. So it's a lot of different information. And I think the best teams that I've been around are the guys that can I want everybody on the same page in that way because we all want the best, you know, the best version of Brady Martin or player X is going to be the best version for each one of us in that part. of it. So I think that's the thing that you kind of have to play those dynamics. And sometimes it can be a little bit of a political thing in terms of how they want to position it. But at the same time, I think that's when you can really, you know, to take a step because the player's performance and their development is the most important thing for all of us. What's that relationship like

with, you know, prospects who went as high as Brady Martin was. And then their NHL organization that drafted them kind of keeping tabs on them throughout the year and sort of what that communications like because I've always I've talked on the show particularly for for more maybe established veteran players I've found it a bit surprising the way NHL teams operate in terms of maybe the lack of oversight they have especially when you get into the off season where players kind of just typically go away they work with their own skills coaches or their own camps they spend the summer working on their skills and then they come back for training camp and you jump back in and maybe there's a misalignment between what the team wants from them and what

they actually worked on or what their own vision for themselves is this is this is is a more unique situation, but kind of what's that, I guess sort of just, yeah, the communication like between the two sides where a team took this guy, he's playing for you, they're keeping tabs on them. I'm sure they have some thoughts on what they'd like to see from their development that year or how they like to see them use. And then obviously you're, while you're worried about the player and you want what's best for them also you're trying to run a team and win games and put everyone else in a position to succeed

as well. Yeah, to your point, I've always found that very interesting because it's kind of like a, it's like a prey and hope with some of that summer stuff. Whereas even with our guys, you want to put tabs on them because if that player doesn't turn out and sometimes it unfortunately does, you want to make sure you exhausted everything you could in that side of it. And that's how we look at it in the junior side of it.

It's not just like, hey, it's April. Best of luck. Hopefully you're better in September 1st. I always find that kind of an odd thing. And I won't name the teams, but you guys follow the league very well. You will know the teams that do an excellent job. Like you can have, there's some teams that it could be a seventh round pick

and they're putting everything into that player. Like, and, you know, on the same page of the, they're, they come up to the Sioux, they're on the ice with them, you know, they're doing video with them. They're sitting in meetings with us. Like, we're kind of an open buck with any of the NHL teams that come up and work. And then there's some teams that could be a very high pick and you don't hear a word from them and then you kind of check in with the player. Like, yeah, any kind of feedback on what they're seeing?

No. And it's kind of, it kind of blows my mind because you, you know, you see all the kind of everyone talking about assets in terms of picks and it's always tough because these are 18 year old people. So it's you hate to use that word. But it's also that it's amazing that some of these staffs just kind of what they don't see in the player or just, you know what? To use my point, like you use the pick on this player, you sign them as a free agent. Like let's put everything into it. And then if, hey, if we all look at each other, this player's not a fit here and we have to move on from them, then we have to move on from them.

But it's kind of funny how a lot of them just kind of, you know, make the pick and kind of, you know, like I said, you pray and how. hope and hopefully it pops, which is kind of a term a lot of teams use, but I don't know, it's kind of been interesting, but there are a lot of teams that do an excellent job with it, but I won't name it, and you guys can kind of, I'm sure you guys know the ones that do a good job and don't, but it's interesting to see the kind of the behind the scenes of it for sure. I remember talking to Brendan Taylor, who is now the head coach of the Saginaw spirit, but who was in the Sioux with you. I talked to him a while back about Nick Haag, who obviously is in the NHL, has developed.

a really strong career, but was a really gangly player in junior and, you know, had a lot of work to do. Like, you know, he has this great frame and he has, you know, these skills, but like, you know, we got to mold him into an NHLer. And at the time, Brendan was in Mississauga, so this wasn't in the Sioux. But I remember talking to him and he mentioned how they spent so much time working on Hague's pivots at the defensive blue line so that he could go retrieve puck sufficiently. And obviously when you're a massive guy, six foot seven, two, 15, like you're turning kind of slowly. You got to work on your sort of ballet skills, if you will. And it took, it took Hague time to get past that gangly stage. But if you're on the

ice, you know, working on that particular skill, retrieving pucks long enough with a good coach, you're going to make progress. And the reason why that was important to Brendan in terms of working with Nick Hague was he knew that when it comes to time to elevate to pro, that's got to be a part of his game. He's going to have to retrieve Pucks efficiently. I wonder, like, from your position, what are some of those separation skills that people don't see where you have a kid in junior? He's got potential to make the pros or maybe even make the NHL, but you're like, if he's going to separate himself from the 20 other guys in his development system with his NHL team, he's got to work on, I don't know,

wall play or de-zone retrievals. What are some of the little details that you and the Sioux work on to really polish these players before they leave for the pros? Yeah, like I find it's always, we chop it kind of into thirds. It's like through scouting, you have to identify that player. You have to put them in a program where they're going to be successful. And then the third part's going to be they have to put it in the work too because you can lay it out, you can see it in them.

For whatever reason, they might not just, they might find that they didn't love it as much or whatever it might be. And we try and be like really articulate when we're doing reports on players because it's easy to just, and it's tough. We have to, you know,

you're looking at like 1100 kids a year for the draft and you have to kind of chop it down. But it's also, you don't want to just say like, hey, player X, bad skater. If you're going to say that,

it has to be, what's wrong with the stride? What do you see? Because in a lot of ways, there's always some feedback in terms of like, and I get into a little bit debate with some NHL people of when can you really, when does it stop that you kind of hit your peak in skating?

Is it, you know, what's the spot of it? And is this, you know, when we're looking at a 15-year-old, is it, you know, edge work's really good. It's just like, you look at it, he's got two broomsticks on his legs. Like, it just needs some muscle to get that pop and a stride, whatever it might be. Is it a strength issue? Is it a mechanics issue? Is it a conditioning? Like, you have to kind of see that side of it.

So I think the biggest thing for a lot of players when you're kind of looking at that side of it is, you know, obviously creativity. Because I think, you know, skating's the one that's. going to catch your eye first, but when a player is kind of in that spot of just like, and I don't mean creativity, like Michigan's behind the net or anything like that. It's more so just of like, hey, under pressure, you can make plays consistently. What can you do? You know, picking up, like a lot of our skill sessions are done without a lot of apparatuses. It's not the lights that you see on Instagram and stuff.

And some of it's kind of that boring side of it. Like we do a lot of work with our wingers and just like picking pucks off the yellow runner on your backhand, like stuff that like a lot of players kind of when you're good at a young age, can say, hey, they didn't get to learn it, but they didn't have to because, you know, there's a lot, if you're, for example, if you're a great offensive skating defenseman, everyone's first comment, I was, oh, you can't, you can't defend. That's every guy that ever comes out, because the first thing is, your stick's so good. A lot of times you can just catch a net and you're out of the zone making an outlet pass.

And everyone's kind of, you just don't have that time to develop it. So then you get to junior in that first little bit of just kind of like turning back for pucks. You know, you're not always going to have a step on somebody. They're going to angle you a little bit better. So there's always those little things, but a lot of times they have to kind of see it first because it's the first time going through it on that side of it. So it's interesting. And not that Nick Hague was a late bloomer by any means. He was a high-end kid even coming in.

That's the one thing going back to what we were talking about. The one thing I'm curious to see how it trends is just the late bloomer. Because a lot of times now, like I think a lot of this rule change, if you're an elite player, you know, 16, 17, 18, 19, I think these rule changes are very good. for you. You have unlimited options of where you can play. But that late bloomer, where are they going to be able to kind of find their spot and kind of develop on that side of it? So it's going to be interesting to see how that kind of progresses. But that's just my own, that theory hasn't been tested, but it's going to be curious to see kind of how many of those guys pop down the road because they're going to have to have a real good personal plan if they're kind of not found out

in a kind of that certain time frame. Well, you answered this already, but I am fascinated by the skating component particularly for, you know, a teenager and the projectability of it. Because I think a lot of people, especially from a scouting perspective, are watching these, these games you guys are playing through that lens, right? Of kind of not necessarily you want to see production and you want to see results and you're going to be judging on that and that's going to be weighed accordingly, but you're trying to sort of project transferable skills or kind of what's, what you're going to be able to leverage at the next level when maybe, you know, there's less space available. You don't necessarily have a size or speed advantage as much as you did previously and still being effective

versus doing stuff that's allowing you to produce right now. But all of a sudden, you're going to have a tougher time adjusting. And the skating angle is so interesting because I think you get such a wide array of topics from people who know a lot about this particular thing. And it's just not really agreed upon, right? Like the game has sped up so much. It's faster than it's ever been. yet I know a lot of evaluators are maybe less worried or fixated on individual skating ability than they were previously, particularly for young prospects, just because I think there's a feel and there's been, you know, mounting evidence of various success stories over the past, how many years of guys who got, you know, dropped in the draft process because it was like,

oh, well, you know, that skating stride is so choppy and they're already slow they're producing. But once you speed them up in the NHL, they're not going to be able to hang with the pace of play. And then you give them access to some of the, you know, day-to-day pro perks, whether it's the skating coaches or just more resources in general and attention to detail. And all of a sudden, they get to a level where it's perfectly functional enough. And it's not going to be a strength, but it's not going to be a limiting factor either. And then there's people who are just like, yeah, if you can't kind of separate yourself at this level already, I don't really want to bet on that being the case in the NHL. It feels like you yourself are kind of undecided on that. How do you sort of, where do you land between those two?

No, it's funny because sometimes this is more so when the players are younger. A player that kind of develops their skating a little bit later, I always find it has like the brain because they've survived at whatever, it might be their AAA level. They've learned how to kind of gain the system. And then when the skating hits kind of later on, I find those guys are like, it almost benefits them. Not that any parent or anybody would want that to slow it down on them, but it's funny when you kind of see somebody that if you're the best skater at 9, 10, 11 years old,

like you don't, you just play a completely different game. Like you don't have to use kind of your body to protect puck. You can kind of use that explosiveness. And if everyone catches up to those players and you see it in our draft, you see it in the NHL draft and everyone goes like, he's fast. This is NHL speed, but he has no idea what to do with the puck.

And he's kind of running into big guys. And it just can't make plays off, you know, delays, little things like that. So it's interesting on that side of it. But I think a lot of it comes into, like I said, that you're kind of using, you know, what can you clean up in their stride? And then there's some guys that, you know, just have that efficiency and roots. I use, this is going back sometime this player, like even like Erasmus Sandine or Connor

timens that we had. Like when you watch them play the game, they're not exactly just like these fluid skaters, but they always seem to have the puck on their stick. They always can get outside of traffic. They have a great head on their shoulders in terms of making exits, defending, taking away time and space. So it's kind of, that's where you really have to when you kind of, a player pops to you and you know you can maybe find some value a little bit later in the

draft because of it but there's there's things there that can be kind of picked off that make that player you know a good prospect for you and obviously a good NHL or down the road. I feel like a decade ago the conventional wisdom around hockey sense was that you know it was more of this like innate skill it's kind of locked in at a certain age. You either have it or you don't if we're talking about like elite hockey sense or very good hockey sense. But then you've got guys like Marty St. Louis and Adam Nicholas talking openly while with the Canadians about, hey, through film session, through all nice instruction, we can improve a guy's hockey sense, even when they're in their 20s. I wonder where you stand on

that in terms of like the nature, nurture of hockey sense. Like can, can a big improvement be made? Or is there like a baseline that you need just not out of the womb necessarily, but within your first 10 years playing hockey. Yeah, I think it can always be improved. I don't think you can take as big as steps in it. Like when you see someone with like elite hockey sense, and I know, like, there's some stuff that you're like, I don't know how we can see that on the eye.

Like that stuff I don't think can be. You can always improve it. I think you can improve things gradually and it can get better. You get more comfortable in your position, learn that side of it, you know, see those plays through those reps and that type of thing. But elite hockey sense is something that. I don't even know how it can be taught. Because some guys, when you see it from them, it's just like, even from sitting up

top or I'm sitting, there's some guys where sometimes you're like, wow, like, I don't even know how we saw that, just that creativity, that sense. It's like they have eyes in the back of their head. So I think that the elite side of it, I think it's tough, but I do think you can gradually improve it in terms of a player understanding their game, what they're successful into because I think a lot of times when you're talking about hockey sense, and it's, I don't mean it in the role side of it, but just like, what are you're attributes that you do really well and how do you continually go back to it to make sure that you're

using these constantly. I think that's a big side of it because I think a lot of players think their game comes off of one way, but it might be you're not someone that's going to kill anybody offensively off the rush. You're a guy that's going to come off, you know, rollouts down low, around the net, little things like that. And there's some guys that just can master that. And they look like they have great hockey sense, but that's just in their little kind of wheelhouse of what they like to do. And there's other guys that are more so, you know, they need a little bit open space to get off the wall to create a shot, that type of thing. So I think that's how you can kind of really extract as much of it as you can.

So a little peek behind the curtain for our process for the summer series interviews, Kyle. John and I put together our notes in terms of like kind of building block topics we want to ask our esteemed guests about. And then we convene for a meeting and we, you know, exchange ideas. And we kind of get rid of the stuff that maybe we don't need to spend time on and really focus on things we're excited about. and John came up with one that I was so envious of that I'm going to steal it from him here and use it and co-op as my own. But we had Dan Muse on the summer series earlier, and I thought one of the more fascinating things that he brought up was he was reflecting on some of the reps he got at lower levels on his way to being a head coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins in the NHL and his work in the USHL and the development program. And he just cited the importance of kind of using those opportunities to experiment. in his craft with new ideas, maybe try out some more unconventional methods.

Not all of them are going to work, but had the luxury to kind of test stuff out because by the time you get to the NHL or just pro hockey in general, things are so much more rigid and businesslike. There's not that much room for, you know, exotic creativity. Let's say, you know, it's different for you. You've been with the Greyhounds in this role for a while now. And as a GM, I imagine there's maybe less room for experimentation than, you know, a head coach with tactics or sets that you're trying to run.

But I'm fascinated for your perspective on that in terms of, you know, the role you're currently in and sort of, I guess maybe some of the leeway you might have to, you know, try things that you might not be able to if you were, let's say, the, you know, the GM of whatever NHLT where you sort of had to go through more checks and balances and just didn't have that opportunity to do so. Yeah, I think a lot of it comes for our draft. Like, we have 15 rounds. and in a lot of ways you have to get a little creative when you're going into those,

especially as you get into the double digits of it because you don't want to ever throw away a pick or anything like that, but there's also situations where you're kind of like, you're trying to hit home runs really with it because you don't need all 15 players from each draft class to play. So I find there's, we kind of come up with some different like, whether it's little algorithms of just kind of like, you know, what can we find here? What are we missing from an eye test? what is something that can kind of pop.

And analytics are always a little different, difficult to track from minor hockey side of it. But I think there's some little things of just like you're trying to find a one tool player, obviously a five tool player, you're going to want them early in that draft. But what else are we missing from them? Is it, you know, where they've played from the last few years? Are they on the upswing? Like little things, we're always trying to get a little creative with it. We've had some success with some of them.

And some of them, you know, for whatever reason, didn't. But I think there's always little things we're trying to look at. in terms of when you're sitting there, what somebody that within that 18 months is going to pop for us and what can we do better to kind of make sure that they do on that side of it. So I think there's little things on them in the management side. I think coaching-wise, I'd agree with that earlier comment because I think when you're going through a long year, I think if you can throw some creativity at the guys, I find that you really dial in a little bit. It becomes fun. It's different. And they kind of, you get that juice going too.

And if you're playing that third game in four days and you're kind of like, hey, guys, we're going to look at here for this. that video session everyone dials in a little bit more it's not just the usual like this is their breakout this is what we're looking to do it i just find you give them a little bit of a different look to it and i think that's where you get the fun out of it and i think it can create a lot of energy because sometimes it's tough to create that energy especially with the travel and all those other things i'm glad you brought that up because in preparation for this i was looking up the the carter george trade you guys made in january and involved seven drafts and that's always one of my favorite bits is someone who doesn't follow the CHL as closely.

I remember the Olinzell-Weger one from a couple years ago when the Blazers loaded up and sent like 10 picks or something like that for them. And the graphics are always hilarious in terms of like one player for like this just treasure trust of assets. We obviously don't see that at least to that extent in the NHL. But I'm fascinated by sort of how those come together and how you ultimately, in a trade like that, let's say, settle on that exact number of picks because at that point, it's like, well, let's get crazy.

let's go eight let's go nine like at obviously at some point you're like i need to at a certain value like cut it off here but i'm always just curious like how those trades come together for when your ballparking that many picks down the line yeah it's funny um it used to be even a few years ago that you could trade out kind of almost as far as you wanted to and now they've kind of capped it on four years so it's kind of brought it down a little bit right to your point it's still kind like especially around the trade deadline can get a little bit crazy on that side of it but yeah it's um some of those conversations are funny because it's you're you're It sounds ridiculous.

There's there's always a comp on both sides that you can kind of use to kind of push it in that way. But, you know, the biggest eye opener I always have for it is, you know, when you're just a fan of a league and you're watching it happen, you're kind of under, you see a trade on paper. You're like, this would make sense for them. This would make sense for them. And then now when you're responsible for making that call, you could, you could think you're almost. And I always joke every trade no one's really happy with because they thought they gave up too much the other side. But there's some trades where you think you're actually giving. too much and the other team doesn't want anything to do with it.

And it's just kind of like, you're like, man, I thought I was given too much on this side of it. But yeah, I think it's, I think last year there was a little bit more emphasis on picks because I think a lot of people were still worried about who was going to be able to be there a year from now and there was kind of more emphasis put on that. But I do think you're seeing it, not to say it was inspired by the CHL, but you do see a lot more, you know, NBA-wise. NFL seems to be kind of, you know, a lot more picks are involved in these trades. And I think, you know, the NHL, they're starting to see like multiple, you know, first round picks are moving in certain situations.

So I do think there's, you know, a little bit more put into that. I think there's more study in terms of, you know, what they think those picks are worth. And it's also that black box theory of like, do you want that prospect that you know what he is already? Or do you want this black box that could be that something? So it's always kind of an interesting side of it. But, yeah, definitely some of the start of those conversations are you have to have a pen and paper handy to it, right? down, especially trying to keep track of the years and that type of thing. I love that.

It's so fascinating because on one hand, it makes total sense to me where you get this star player in the OHL. He's going to improve your team by leaps and bounds in comparison to like just getting a star player at the NHL level. And the assets, like you said, like the assets that you can use, it's so limited. If the guy's an overager that you want to trade, the other team doesn't want that player. They're not even making the playoffs.

So you just run out of options quickly And the next thing you know Someone's building a 10 asset Or 10 piece trade for one player And social media is laughing at it But it does it does There is some logic behind it when you actually You know get into the weeds of it

But you brought up earlier sort of the use of analytics I believe you use algorithm So I assume that that goes back to data You know Kyle Dubus Known for his data background when he was at this with the Sue greyhounds he was the GM there before you I wonder what did that look like when you arrived on the job in terms of what he had built up infrastructure wise in terms of tasks that certain people were handling on a small staff or even just like what you guys were

trying to figure out and then from there what do things look like today where are you seeing the most impact of data it's imperfect that lower levels, but there are competitive advantages to be sought and acquired. Yeah. I think originally there was a lot of people. It's funny that we're doing other jobs for us in the Sioux, like in our front office in terms of ticket sales, whatever it might be. And then they were on the side kind of doing some tracking and that type of thing and doing

some scraping off sites for, but even still a lot of that information, like there wasn't a lot of ice time shown. and there wasn't a lot of, you know, even shots were counted, but not even where they were taken on the ice. So it was kind of another thing, you know, you're looking at shooting percentage, that type of thing. Now it's kind of what I find it for us, it's kind of trying to find a lot of those efficiencies

in terms of, you know, how does this player, you know, taking steps on that side of it? What were they trying to do? Because I think in a lot of ways, when you're looking at a pro player, you know, this is 24, there's different age curves, right, of what you're looking at. Whereas in our level, you're looking at a player that could be 60, and then maybe they fell into a spot

where they're not really developing or just fell out of favor with the coach. Like the ones that we try and really, and the most fun to do truthfully are finding that player that, that it's going to take that big jump because in junior hockey, you could have a player one year with seven points

and the next year score 27 goals. And it's not all the time, but you'll see that a lot where a player can make jumps, leaps and bounds. So it's about kind of trying to find out, you know, what's that player, where can we kind of identify them?

then can we, you know, acquire that player once they're in the league type thing. So we're always trying to, you know, find players that fit what we do. And at the same time, you try and do that, you only have a few ventures to do that. It's through the draft, through trade or, you know, signing something as a free agent. So I think a lot of our stuff now and there's tons of sites that do, you know, programs, we have them all. But you're also trying to find out stuff that's, you know, can I get our coach is that nice one pager after every game of going into it. Because I think, I joke, it's like a three thumb rule. If they have to scroll three, times in their phone, they're probably not getting to that last little part on it. And it's,

it's not because they're not engaged in it, but it just, it has to be something of like, this is what we're seeing. And then you have to back it up with video because when we're showing our players, we're not showing them. Hey, this is what you're at. This is where you're shot. This is where it has to be backed up on video. And the guys are very perceptive of it because at the end of the day, it's going to help them out. So we're just trying to always track that type of information. And then trying to build in some things of more so projections. And not to say it's always points driven, but just like this is what you can see this player getting to at that point, because I think that's the hardest thing when you're gauging a player that's, you know,

16, 17 years old, what can you project to them? And the old school version would have been like, yeah, 30 goals score at 18, I can see it. But there's nothing to back that up of why they're doing that. It's just maybe as a good release, but can't hit the net or whatever it might be. So I think that's the biggest thing we try and do. And then more so how can you implement it and how you play. And I think there's lots of teams, our league's no different. They have these huge analytic stats, but then you watch them play and you're like, there's no, way anyone's reading any of this data or anything they're taking in because you'd think they would play a different style. But it's also the flexibility of your coaching staff because

to our earlier conversation, you know, you can't just play one way and be stubborn with it. You have to kind of work with the group you have in that particular spot, but not waver too far away from what you guys are trying to do as a complete side of it too. So yeah, it's an ever-changing thing. I find it everyone's much more open to it. Everyone's kind of trying to find the next thing. But I think, it's also like not trying to be distracted too much by just saying you're tracking all these things. It's just like how can we actually put this to work in terms of making us better and the players better on top of it. Well, at the risk of oversimplifying things, I generally find

like a useful rule of them for me in terms of explaining year-to-year production for players is typically just, it's pretty predicated on role in the CHL, right? And usage in particular, like you see these crazy jumps. And part of it is certainly a player being a year older, kind of getting stronger and developing and all the work you're doing with them behind the scenes. But typically it's associated with, you know, maybe someone who was higher up on the depth chart, either graduating to the next level or aging out of the league or just moving on elsewhere. And then all of a sudden,

they step into Power Play 1, top line minutes, playing with the other team's best players. And they, like, triple their goal scoring from the year prior. And people are always taken aback by that. And I think it's generally pretty well explained by that. Like I said,

at the risk of oversimplifying all the other things to go into it. I also think, like something in terms of stats like you can be on a like a high shooting percentage heater in the oh it's going to fall off like sometimes you can keep it going it might not last forever but it's like the shooting percentages stuff like that when people are looking at it oh shooting percentage is super high it should fall back the next year like i've seen guys keep that going for two years in junior and it's kind of interesting when everyone's trying to poke holes in little things yeah there's so much context that is missing from the data.

And there's so, like, players are developing rapidly, right? So, you know, that player on your rival that's on the third line that didn't get any ice time last season could pop off this season. And do you go to that team and try to acquire them before? And because you saw something in them, whether it was, you know, the eye test, video, something in the data, or is that team just ready to unleash him? And next thing, you know, he's a star in the league. And obviously goaltending is a big part of this too

where some years I'm sure you feel like there's not a ton of good goalies for whatever reason or some years there's a bunch or the league has become more defensive this year. I feel like there's more volatility in terms of what you're seeing both night to night because the best teams in the league are usually a lot better than the worst teams in the league but also season to season. Yeah and there's also some theory that this player was always at the top of their age

group their whole life. And now you're 19 in the league again. You might not be an NHL player down the road, but now you're back to that spot again. And everyone's kind of younger than you can. You take advantage of that side of it too. But yeah, I think there's so much changes each year. And even players get off to great starts, like sometimes you might still have eight players at NHL camps when you're opening your season.

And it's kind of a situation where look out for this team and then they crash in November and it becomes a huge thing. But there's definitely disparity. I wouldn't say early in the year, but definitely after the trade done line. type of thing. But it's also an opportunity where you see younger player that might have been moved in a deal in a higher leverage situation and all of a sudden they take off and it helps their draft stock too. So it's kind of on both sides of it. But yeah, it's definitely season to season is a tough and sometimes dangerous thing because there's just so much different changeover and and even

conference to conference. All right. Well, that's all I've got for today. Kyle, this was awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time. It was great to finally get you on the program to catch up. And best of luck this season, looking forward to seeing how you guys do. I appreciate it. Anytime I'm floated out with some PDO swag, I had to clear the schedule, so I was all aboard. Appreciate you guys having me on. Well, there you have it. Kyle Raftus, I believe that's part four or five of the summer series.

If you want to include the Brendan Dillon one, we did back in July. John, we're going to do about a 10 or so minute capper here at the end. Reflect a little bit on the chat we just had with Kyle Raftus and unpack some of our favorite. tidbits. It was excellent to have him on. I love that he's continuing the great lineage of Kyle's running the Souset Marie Greyhounds, the second one of the sort that we've had here as part of the summer series on the PTO cast. And I thought he was excellent. Like, it's always cool to to speak with people in the game who are pretty transparent about their process. And I thought he certainly was like, you know, both in terms of the changing landscape we documented off the top,

but then sort of their own kind of mode of operation in the Sioux in terms of what they're looking for, their players, how it all sort of fits as pieces of the puzzle. And, you know, the, the CHL still feels like this just totally different frontier for me. Maybe it's because I'm not a draft expert

who's following these teams on a day-to-day basis and grinding that tape. I'm typically reserving it for the end of the season when I'm sort of jamming in my pre-draft homework. But it's always fascinating to see the disparity maybe between some of those teams and you kind of touched on it in a very well articulated way in terms of the gap between the top teams in these leagues and the bottom teams. But I think that extends to beyond on ice play as well in terms of their approach as well.

And I think you and I both think pretty highly of the way the Greyhounds operate and how they've been run under Kyle. And it was cool to chat about it with him. Yeah. And anybody listening who doesn't know Kyle, like he could be working in the NHL right now. I'm not speaking for him for why he isn't, but I think he's just enjoying himself in the Sioux, but I would guarantee that he's been approached to work in the NHL.

And I think what I find most appealing about him as an executive is his open-mindedness and ability to adapt. Like, for example, when this whole NCAA rule change happened, where CHL are players, CHL players were suddenly allowed to go to the NCAA. There were a lot of CHL managers, OHL, QMJHL, WHL, who got their backup, and it became sort of an us versus them. And some of them were, you know, being protective and some of them were, I suppose

you could say, being delusional where they thought, yeah, this is happening. But like my program is good enough that the players are going to stay. And that's just not what's happened. but I recall talking to Kyle at some point around that time and he was more sort of just analyzing it more objectively like with less emotion and thinking you know how can we adapt here in the Sioux and you know I don't know how many of the listeners know where Sue St. Marie is but it's like I don't know eight hours north of Toronto like it's really quite in the middle of nowhere

so they've really actually since Dubis got there whatever was like 15 16 years ago they've done a really good job recruiting but there was a time where it was a bit of an outpost in the OHL where his parents are like, I don't want to send my kid that far, my 16 year old that far to play hockey. And that would obviously change how the draft works because there's a lot of sort of manipulation

that the agents do and whatnot. So that's a long way of saying that Kyle's done a really good job with the Sue program and he took it from Dubus who had sort of brought it to a new level and I guess modernized it for lack of a better word. And now Kyle's what, 13 years in you mentioned? I think this is his 13th season

and he's had, you know, Sheldon Keith under him for a coach. Drew Bannister is now back as his coach. He had left to go to the H.L, then the NHL, and now he's back. And yeah, they developed a bunch of players. And I think we saw why in terms of Kyle's perspective

and the way that he views his job and developing players at that level. Yeah, I didn't want to bring this up during our chat because I'm sure it would have made him uncomfortable in blush although maybe he would have liked to hear it anyways, but I think the track record speaks for itself, right? You talk about sort of this perception or like, if you're a parent of a young player

and you're trying to steer them towards a career playing pro hockey, hopefully in the NHL one day, they have a pretty good track record of success stories there, especially top picks and, you know, the past two years having both Chase Reed and Brady Martin back-to-back, but even extending beyond that, like you've got Barrett Hayden, you know, you go on down the line, all the guys who have come to,

through there that have carved out NHL careers for them. It's, it's been pretty impressive. And I know that, especially because what Dubas was there for three or four years, as the GM obviously, he'd been with the organization cutting his teeth in the industry for, for well before that. But when they sort of handed the keys over to Kyle Raftus, like I know he put a lot of

thought into carrying over a lot of the stuff Dubas had brought into place there within the organization and integrated and then trying to build that out as all the advancements in hockey have covered. to the forefront around us as well. So yeah, it speaks for itself and it's pretty exciting. I didn't really, you know, we started off talking about the NCAA and I think it's, you know, certainly the most interesting part of all this for all of these teams and GMs

in terms of how they're operating and how they're approaching. And it's still trial by error for the most part for a lot of these people. But it was cool to hear him talk about that because I think it would have been pretty easy for someone in his position to instantly kind of have their guard up when we start talking about it because he's going through it right now with Chase Reed where you put in all this work turning him from as you said you know playing in a relatively unknown environments to all of a sudden being in legit consideration for the first overall pick for a long time in the pre-draft process settling at seventh overall still an amazing accomplishment and typically in the past it would

have been like man this guy who's going to play half the game and especially with his skating as a right shot defender just had such an outsized impact at this level where it doesn't matter who else you have on the team if you have that guy you're probably going to be pretty competitive every single night to all of a sudden now you're watching them go play in michigan state i believe next season and now you just have to do that all over again i think he's got a good sense of his role in all that in terms of that being a feather in his cap but also turning the page over and it's like this is an intermediate gap for a lot of these guys it's not a long-term home you're trying to develop them and get them to the next level and now he just has to do it all over again but i think

depending on who you talked to, you like that conversation, I think, could have gotten a lot differently than I did hear with him today. And on the point about Chase Reed, it was really interesting that anecdote he had about, you know, he's talking all these scouts about Brady Martin and the sort of other Sue players part of that 2025 draft class. And at the end of every call, they're like, hey, so about this Chase Reed kid, what do you project for him? And I just love how that ended up being, you know, a good omen for Reed's draft stock.

people were keeping an eye on them because they saw this incredible rise, this incredible journey already happening. And then this past season, I mean, like I said on during the interview, like, I don't know if there was anyone who's stock rose as high as Reed, not that I'm like a draft expert, but thinking back, I believe it's Chase Reed. So that's fascinating. And then, yeah, another thing that jumps out to me, you know, and I know he was, you know, I think he was half joking.

But when we were talking about data and what's believable, what's relevant, Kyle's like a guy can go on a two-year shooting percentage bender in the OHL. And it's not like super uncommon. I just, it's just so funny to hear that because when we discuss the NHL, it's like, if a guy is hot for a month, we're like, he's cooling down. But the thing about the OHL is that, you know, the competition, you know, just continues to get, easier if you have that confidence as a star player. And if you feel like you're leveling up your game,

you just all of a sudden, the points just keep piling up. And, you know, your shooting percentage remains at whatever, 25% for two years. Well, it's changed. Like, I thought you brought up a great point of how year to year the environment changes quite a bit in terms of the relative strengths,

the league, um, the dynamics in terms of how the game's being played, what the strengths at certain positions are across the board. But, um, you know, typically for all of these CHL leagues, maybe not as much as, say, the Q, but like, even the OHL can be the Wild Wild West in terms of the imbalance of talent on the teams, but also, you know,

players at that age, like, we kind of know that attention to detail defensively and understanding there and commitment typically comes later, even later into your NHL career. And there's not as much structure. And so it is much more sort of like backyard hockey in a way. So if you have a certain skill, like let's say shooting talent, you're going to have a lot of success scoring goals regardless. And it might not necessarily translate it's for us to figure out what that's going to look like in the NHL. But especially for comparing it to goalies, right? And we didn't get into this when we talked about Carter, George.

And people are really excited about him as a King's prospect and his future within that organization. But I always do find it interesting for goalies at that level because when you talk to evaluators, it's always reassuring to see that a goalie's had success along the way. whatever league they've played in, if they've stood out and stopped a high percentage of pucks, that's a good sign. But we know NHL teams typically don't care that much about that. Like they're looking much more for like projectable tools, particularly size and athleticism. And even if you have a subpar safe percentage, you feel like, well, if we bring him in and he works with our goalie coach and we round out a few things. Technically, we're going to get

better results. And that's what we care about by the time he's 25 as opposed to what his say percentage is when he's 18. And so it doesn't necessarily matter if the goalie has an 880, save percentage. But for the shooter, it's like, well, if he has an 880s, every percentage, that means I'm probably rocking a pretty high shooting percentage myself and scoring a lot of goals. And so that dynamic in the interplay shooter versus goalie is always interesting at these levels. Yeah, there's so much unpredictability from game to game.

And like if you think about the psychology of like a 16, 17, 18 year old, like the ups and downs of like, what if you got dumped by your girlfriend the night before? Like, what does that game look like? How do you bounce back from from that when your brain isn't even fully developed into sort of a mature person? So there's a lot going on there. And obviously, certain guys stand out, whether it's maturity mentally or physically. And then they may fade away because the skills aren't developed. It's fascinating. And obviously, this is a whole, the whole thing with scouting is like you're betting on certain things panning out in the end and you're going to have misses and you're going to have hits, but you hope that's sort of the average player that you put

your hand up for in your draft meeting pans out and that you were right because otherwise you're probably not going to have a job. All right, buddy. Well, that's all from us for today. Another chapter of the summer series in the books. We've got one more planned. It will be really stretching the definition of summer because it will be on September 21st, I believe.

I'm not going to give away who it is yet. I will tease, though. It is a returning guest from last year's series. And it's going to be a fun one. Looking forward to that already started the prep process for that. So we're going to have that for you soon. We'll keep the regular shows otherwise coming until then. Subscribe to the Patreon if you want access to all this stuff.

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