The Hockey PDOcast - Summer Series Part 1 With Todd Diamond

Episode Date: July 15, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance and Todd Diamond to discuss how the cap going up this summer influenced negotiations between players and teams, the pros and cons of going long-term vs. taking shorter deals for young players, and the impact of the new CBA on The Florida Model of contract structures.   If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Demetri Philpovich. And joining me is my good buddy Thomas Trans. Tom, what's going on, man? Demetri, excited for this one? It's going to be a special one. As we teased during yesterday's show, we're starting a people in the game themed week here on the PDO cast. And we're going to have a variety of esteemed GMs, coaches, players, player agents as well. And so kicking us off today is, uh, our pal, Todd Diamond, who's been kind enough to take some time out of his busy summer schedule to join us here. Tom, Todd, how's it going, man? It's going very well. It's been a pretty good summer for our company, so a lot less stressful than previous summers. Why don't we start there,

Todd? You know, you have obviously a variety of clients who signed massive deals over the course of the past two and a half weeks. Orlov, Proverov, and of course, Granland would sort of be the headliners there, but you've also done a bridge deal with William Eklund this summer. So it's been a lot of work. And there's a lot of different angles that we'll get into in discussing some of those deals. But just big picture, when you sort of think about this summer and the impact of a historic amount of cap growth, right?

The largest proportional increase in, well, since what, two? 2007, 2008, and the largest raw money increase in the upper limit ever is since the hard cap was adopted. How do you sort of look at how that shaped contract outcomes across the business, but specifically for your clients? Well, I think, you know, this summer, you know, it was very fortunate for guys who were going to be free agents, as you noted, a lot of came into the system. and there were a lot of chairs at the table. A lot of times in free agency, you run into situations where the chairs run out pretty quickly. And unfortunately, a couple of guys are left standing trying to figure out, you know,

where am I going to find a job. But this year, obviously, it was much different. You know, there weren't a ton of big name players. So, you know, our clients were very fortunate. And, you know, we had a mix of guys that were, you know, hoping to stay where they were playing. and other players have felt it was time to move on or another player, you know,

maybe looking for a more competitive environment. So it was pretty much a mixed bag, but like I said, the low amount of players available, you know, let things kind of transpire pretty quickly. Yeah, I think there's going to be certainly an adjustment period

for everyone involved, right? I think for teams kind of trying to figure out how to best use all of a sudden this new found cap space with more teams than ever really having 20, 30 million entering this offseason. That's going to be the case in future offseason as well. I think for fans, as they sort of receive news of this, I think there's sticker shock sometimes. And we've been talking a lot on the show about how we need to kind of rewire,

reframe the way we think about this stuff. And then from a player and agent perspective as well, kind of having these conversations, I had a good chuckle seeing Don Waddell, a GM obviously, are very familiar with in the Proverov discussions, talking about how agents have been educating them all summer, about how it's an entirely different environment and landscape, right? And he kind of made the note or joke about how a player who was worth $3 million last year

all of a sudden isn't worth four. But that kind of is the case, right? Like our pal J. Fresh has done a great job of posting just to kind of give listeners and fans context on some of these contracts, like how a guy like Nick Eilers, for example, signs for an $8.5 million A.A.V. this summer. And if you adjust it to what the previous cap situation was by year three of that deal, going to be roughly a $6.5 or $6.6 million deal. And so that kind of gives you a sense of this changing dynamic, I guess, and how two, three years from now, a lot of these numbers and

salaries and Aavis the players are locked into are just going to look different in terms of the percentage of the cap they represent. True. You know, one thing I've been thinking about since the new CBA came down and going through the summer, I think the middle class is going to do really well going forward. The middle class is going to earn way above the average league's salary. So I think that's going to be really good for players. Entry level guys are kind of in the same boat,

you know, with maybe you want to call it a cost of living increase. And then, you know, your top guy is always going to be your top guys. How fast that top number grows, I'm unsure. You know, I can go back to the time when, you know, Bill Zito and I hammered out Alexander Barkov's most recent extension. And, you know, we had several meetings, but one meeting we brought Sasha into the meeting. And, you know, Sasha was very adamant that I want to have a supporting cast around me. I want to have a team that can compete and can compete for many years.

So, you know, then it came down to, you know, to Bill and I trying to figure out what that number is that was palable for both sides. it seems, you know, we kind of nailed it on the head, even though it was probably a lot more stressful for Bill over the past couple years and for me. But my point is, I think, you know, most hockey players and most importantly, you want your leadership on your team, your best players, you really want them to be winners and want to win. And knowing that, that brings me back to the uncertainty of where do I think the top number of values are going to go moving forward as a cap increases. because smart good players, they know you need a supporting cast. This is a tough support. It's getting harder with more games, the speed. You know, the off-season is not that long,

especially if you're going deep in the playoffs. So I just think more so than any other sport, you really need your supporting cast of players to have success and to, you know, want to really win a Stanley Cup. Yeah, one thing that was interesting about this summer because, you know, we're in this sort of odd transitional phase, not just because the cap is going up, Todd, but because as you noted, you know, the new MOU dropped for the public anyway over the weekend. I'm sure you've had more time than us to comb through it. And so we're also going to have a different environment in, what, 15 months basically or 14 months that's going to shift things once again. But in this summer anyway, where really it was cap growth changing or, cap growth driving different sorts of outcomes than we'd been used to, certainly during the austerity of the flat cap era.

It felt to an outside observer anyway, watching some of these numbers and some of these deals get done, and to some extent, some of the lack of player movement, as if a player reluctance to change teams in some ways was like the driving force, the shaping force in terms of what we saw unfold across the NHL's traditional silly season. Did you view it that way as someone working on the inside? For sure. You know, hockey players are creatures of habit. If something is good and it feels good, most guys, you know, don't think the grass is green

or somewhere else, you know, and they're happy to pay, you know, for Ivan Barrowy's happy to pay, you know, 6% Ohio tax. not a big deal. He likes the environment, likes his teammates, you know, likes the atmosphere, you know, and values his role and the coaching staff value him. So, yeah, I just think when a player feels good about his situation, he's not looking to run for something else. You know, when these guys stop playing hockey, they're still very young men. They can move to Florida, play golf if they're smart when they retire. taking advantage of the lifestyle and the benefits that come with living in a state of Florida, for example. Thinking globally, though, about like the player's side, is there something that the PA or players in general or that's like, is there a collective solution wherein sort of it would be in players best interests for more guys to, you know, I don't want to use something derogatory

like chasing the bag, but, but, you know, in some ways it's not derogatory, right? I mean, a rising tide floats all boats and there's an extent to which, you know, there are comparables that absolutely could have been out there that would have been very useful to folks like you going forward that were sort of left on the table by the player's sides, or by the player's side across the last, you know, three and a half weeks. Yeah, but I think that's, you know, part of, you know, the teams that have a ton of cap space, you know, just going back to my left comment. maybe are not as desirable today for free agents.

But they're very important for the business going forward. We need Chicago and we need Detroit to be successful. It's crucial because so much of the revenue of the game is driven at the local level. So it's absolutely critical that these teams start to get back to where they were 10 and 20 years ago. But the teams that are competing, there just was not that much money. And you could see it, you know, in like Bled and Marchand deals. But they also understand, like, again, I go back to hockey players wanting to be happy. And understanding what they have here is something special and, you know, something that may not, you know, hasn't been done.

Maybe it's going back to New York Islanders and Edmonton Oilers in the 80s. You know, one thing you look at, like Tampa Bay Lightning was, you know, also the model franchise. But I think the thing that hurt them most was they were successful during, COVID. And there was no growth. They could not keep any of those, you know, those key elements of the team outside of the star players. And that really hurt them.

And, you know, they haven't gotten back to that point yet. Florida a little bit has gotten just enough wiggle room in the growth of the cap to be able to keep these guys together. But, you know, there's going to be a lot of money in the system. There's a lot of teams that have money. A lot of those teams have a lot of young players that they're waiting and hoping are going to develop. So it's really going to be interesting to see if those players do or do not develop.

And all the allocation of those dollars, how are they going to fill them? Well, we're going to talk more in a second here about the new CBA and some of the specifics of it. And I got a lot of questions for you on that. But in hearing you talk earlier, I want to circle back to the point you made about how the main beneficiaries of this new environment are probably going to be, at least in the short term, the middle class players. And it won't necessarily affect the top guys in terms of the high water mark. I'm fascinated for your take on this because I think it's something listeners are always kind of trying to weigh and trying to get into the headspace of players in terms of the risk, worse reward of going shorter term. If you're one of those higher end players to maximize your earning power to get back on the market when the cap is $114 million, potentially over $120 down the road, as opposed to taking a long term seven, eight year deal with a high AV, of course, that isn't necessarily maxing out your earning power, but is setting up yourself and your family for life. knowledge how fast and dangerous a sport it is, how you don't want to take anything for granted

necessarily in terms of your health. So I understand that from a human element when you're kind of weighing some of these things. But I think of other sports and I think the NFL, we've seen it in the NBA, certainly with the cap going up recently over the past couple years, the NFL, there's the kind of the running joke where the highest paid quarterback is basically the one who signed his extension most recently because it's just constantly moving up and up and up with all these figures. So if you're one of these top players, I'm sure there's an element of judging yourself against your peers, wanting to be compensated accordingly and getting your fair share of that pie as a percentage of the cap. So you don't necessarily want to just lock

yourself in. And then three years later, you're still in your prime and you're looking at your peers and going, oh, man, I really missed out on a nice little payday year. Yet at the same time, all that stuff I mentioned about locking in that security. How are you sort of weighing those conversations? I'm sure it's on a case-by-case basis in terms of the player's upbringing or maybe previous earnings and contracts and all that stuff, but kind of putting all those pieces together when considering what your next step is going to be for some of these top guys. Yeah, I would say, you know, I go to the, you know, the kind of financial world in K.C, know, your client.

You know, it's really important to know your clients as individuals and what drives them, what motivates them, you know, being honest on where you see their ceiling going and how successful it can be. You know, the summer with William Meckland, for example, we chose to do the bridge deal. My career and I, you know, kind of agreed in that framework pretty quickly. We met at the first time at the U18s in Dallas and just, you know, established what we were kind of both looking for. From the player's perspective, you know, like William Meckland, he had a shoulder operation a little over a year ago. you know, then in the pre-world championships, he got cut on his wrist from Aaron Skate. So just looking at that, you know, and having the opportunity to do a year-early deal for him,

it still sets him up enough financially where he has that comfort or he doesn't have to come into his platform year and think I need to set the world on fire. I can really focus on my team, my teammates, being part of the group without any pressure. And I think that's going to, you know, for him lead to better performance. A lot of times, you know, players at the point in your career dictates the term. 33, 30-year-old-old guy, you know, you're not going to get eight years unless, you know, you have a situation where there's no gap space and you need to find guaranteed money for the player. Otherwise, you know, it's going to be three or four years as well.

And then with the growth and, you know, all these things, like a player like Ivan poor, Pervara was, you know, happy to go long-term, happy with the number. You know, we had a long-term deal coming out of Philadelphia last time with him and his coming out of his rookie deal. So, you know, some players just like that comfort. Some players, you know, believe in themselves. And, you know, we're kind of there to just kind of direct them and support their decision or give them support if they don't see, you know, sometimes what we see in them.

You know, some of them are pretty modest. They maybe don't think of themselves as a superstar or someone who can earn $10 million a season. And sometimes the agent does. So, you know, these are the conversations you have. And you don't just start it, you know, a week before. You know, William and I, Eklund, you know, we knew we wanted to approach a team about doing an early deal. And thankfully, we had a manager who saw the, you know, the wisdom in it. And we were able to get it done.

An early deal, but ultimately a bridge deal too, which has been something we've been discussing at length on this program. Really talking about how in the cap growth era, the opportunity cost for teams and bridging guys is going to be greater. You know, just basically working on this theory or workshopping a theory that the edge in an era of cap growth is going to go to the first movers, the teams that bet early on sort of guys with high-end potential. of course there's an opposite side of that coin, which is that from a player's perspective, there's a greater level of opportunity cost in going long, especially if you're sort of a second contract guy like we're talking about with Eklund. How do you sort of weigh that as an agent?

I mean, there's the obvious desire, generally speaking, to just lock in as much guaranteed money as possible. And yet, you know, that might not be necessarily the sagest approach from a maximum compensation perspective for players going forward, especially if we're, you know, in for six to seven million dollar year over year lifts across the life of, let's say, the rest of this decade anyway. Yeah. Again, you need to, you know, know the player and know how, under what stress he performs best. Right. You know, some players, even though on the ice, they seem like warriors off the ice, they have a different persona. So you really need to know your player and know

his family and, you know, advise him along those lines. You know, I think guys just want to be paid fairly. They don't want to, you know, destroy the, you know, the salary structure over the organization for themselves. So, you know, they all need to decide what the number is. Obviously, that could change.

You know, we know what's going to happen in the following two summers. And hopefully, you know, the industry will continue along those lines. But we don't know that yet. We don't know what can happen in the world also, which nobody expected in 2020. So, you know, there are a lot of uncertainties. You know, you see what's happening, all the money coming into the NBA. Players are going shorter and shorter. They want to capitalize.

But obviously, their numbers are much larger than our numbers in the NHL. And the roster is a much smaller. So, I mean, you know, it's a moving target, to be honest. you know, in our business teams tend to keep their star players. You know, rarely do, you know, players leave for a money issue. It's usually another issue, which I think we saw, you know, with Mitch Marta going to Vegas, likely it was not a money issue. So, you know, I don't have that answer today.

It's definitely going to be interesting. You know, if there's one player out there that says I want to push the envelope, you know, I want to get a larger outsized percentage of the cap than it's been done before. But that has not happened yet. Yeah, I'm fascinated while we're talking to Neckland and kind of the subject, how this changing environment is going to impact RFA specifically, right? Because I think we heard for the millionth year heading in to the off season that this was going to be finally the year that we see a bunch of offer sheets and RFAs that sign them and really push the envelope or force the hand other current teams. And I've long felt that it's a pretty inefficient.

system for these young players because there's kind of this self-imposed almost seniority wage scale going on, right? Where I get the theory behind it from a team perspective and for a league health perspective, you want to reward these organizations that are drafting and developing these talented young players to give them a first shot to essentially retain them and ensure that they're there for however many years down the line. Yet from a player perspective, it must be kind of frustrating because there's been so much work done in terms of studying age curves and acknowledging that a player's prime and their most productive and best years are probably younger than we might have previously thought, right? It's probably in that age 22 to 26 window.

And those are the RFA seasons where there's not that many options for these players. They don't have a lot of leverage. And so historically, we've seen teams take advantage of that for the most part and get them on these team friendly deals where the players' production and the value they're providing the team are greatly exceeding the dollars they're making. And then you get to the point where once you finally hit the open market, you have all these options and suitors and you can make more money. You're in your late 20s, early 30s,

and then it poses all these problems for teams committing long-term to these guys as they potentially decline or start getting hurt more frequently. So I'm very fascinated to see, and I'm curious if you have any thoughts on that, beyond that, in terms of how young players are potentially going to manage that,

whether we're going to see that power struggle or for leverage kind of shift towards the player perspective, I think we already have a little bit, or whether it's going to kind of stay the course then it won't really affect it that much. Well, I think if we have more lead time like we were given coming into this offseason, if the NHL and NHLPA come up with down the road projections, I can definitely see really good players going to shorter-term deals,

like in the NBA and like key quarterbacks in the NFL. I can definitely see that happening. But you're still going to have your players. I want to have that guarantee. That's just, you know, the people that are. we have in a sport. You know, most guys come from pretty simple, pretty modest families in this game. And, you know, they never, you know, their egos are usually limited to on the ice, off the ice, you know, they're usually different people, very modest. So I think it remains to be

seen. I think you'll definitely have some guys that want to push the envelope, happy to go short term, really monetize the best years of their career. And some other guys will do what's already been done. And, you know, if they can lock in, you know, two six to seven-year contracts over the term of their career, they'll be happy doing that. But I also find a lot of times, you know, these long-term deals in the beginning, it looks great for the player. The middle looks like a fair deal. And at the end, you know, the team looks like they came out ahead. So, you know, when you're talking about guys coming out of, you know, their rookie deals until those long-term deals, obviously with an older player, it's different. you really want the player, you're willing to overpay later for years later in the career.

But if a guy can state, you know, then he's going to be perfectly fine. You touched on Barkov's extension a little bit earlier. And what's fascinating to me about unpacking that, especially because we have a player agent and fans are always, you know, interested, I think, to hear people who really know, right? People who represent, you know, the captain of one of the dominant Florida team. sort of address the age-old question of like, how much do the taxes matter in terms of keeping a guy around? But the Barkoff question that I want to ask specifically is, it's easy to forget now, but he committed in October of 21, right?

The Bill Zito had had a successful 46 games or 56 games or what have you, you know, in that sort of weird post-bubble season. This wasn't a year-over-year contender the way we're talking about. them today when Barkov decided to remain there. So I'm just curious if you can talk us through considerations for players based in Florida, but also what goes into sort of a general manager like Billy pitching a player like Barkov before that sort of this is a durable winning team factor is really decisive in shaping the outcome there on sort of the vision in getting a long term pact done.

Well, I say, you know, if you believe in the power of threes, you know, in that specific negotiation, you had an owner Vinnie Viola and the Viola family. You had the Bill Zito and you had my client, Sasha Barkov, all really believing that, you know, they could make this thing into a champion. If you ever spend any time with Vinnie and Viola, he's the, you know, it's always sunny where Vinny is, you know. Most positive people I've met in my life. And he always believed. And Bill had the same belief. And Bill, I think, you know, coming out of our industry and then out of Columbus, you know, had a chip on his shoulder. He had a lot to prove.

Wanted to show that, you know, he could make this happen. You know, bringing in Sam Reinhardt and Carter Verhegey, you know, a really good way to get things rolling. And then, you know, Sasha wanting to win here. And not going back to your first point, he didn't want to win here because I'm paying less tax. He wanted to come here. It's a team that drafted him. He fell in love with the community. He has really deep roots in the community now.

And, you know, just wanted to make a non-hockey market, the hottest market in the game. So you put those three personalities together. And here we are. Back-to-back Stanley Cups, three finals in a row. And a group of guys. that, you know, sacrificed to see it through further. Todd, let's... No, no, please finish.

I really want to hear what you want to say. Going back to Thomas's question about the taxes and all that stuff. I just think it's an add-on, I'm nice to have. You know, you can speak with, you know, people who work for all different companies in the world and they can tell you what the fringe benefits may or may not be. And that's maybe what keeps them in the job. I think it's the winning, it's the atmosphere, it's the commitment by ownership to be a really good steward of the franchise, a really good partner in the community. You know, they just have everything going for themselves here.

You know, it's really interesting to watch. You know, it's, you know, usually have ownership, you know, they're going into the community and saying, I want A, B, and C to do this. You know, with the Viola family, it's the opposite. You know, we're going to do this. how can you be a part of it? It's really a partnership. I think more owners, if they were smart, they would try and follow the model.

Let's take our break here. I want to put a pin in this because I've got a couple more questions about the Panthers and Bargob in particular that I want to ask you about. But we're going to take our break and then when we come back, we will jump right back in it with Todd Diamond. You're listening to the HockeyPediocast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.

All right, we're back here on the Hockeypedio cast. I'm joined by Thomas Drans, as always. And our pal, Todd Diamond, and has been gracious enough to join us as well for the first installment of our people in the game week. Todd, let's pick up where we left off before the break. We were talking about Barkob and the Panthers and something I've been speaking about a lot really all year.

And it's really come to ahead this offseason with the Bennett and Ekblad and Marsha and extensions is the way the Panthers have been going about this in terms of, I think it's been a bit of a red herring. And you were noting this as well, the tax implications and the benefits and how fans typically just cite that as a reason why all these guys are willing to stay and be part of this group and take AVs that are lower than they could theoretically get on the open market in different

situations. And I think there's an element to that. I think certainly when you're doing something as historic as this team is on track to do, which is the three straight Stanley Cup finals, back-to-back champions. I think as a competitor, you certainly just want to stay there and be part of that and they're doing all this great stuff off the ice. Something they've also been doing, though, is leveraging their financial might and doing so and the structuring in particular and how that relates to this next CBA in terms of the caps

that are going to be imposed in terms of 60% of the total value for any deal signed being maxed out in signing bonuses as opposed to what's going on right now where from Barkov to Brianhart, Kachuk, Foresling, Bennett, Ekbatt, all these guys have signed eight-year deals with all the money essentially tied up in signing bonuses up front, just the $1 million base salary. and that essentially being a relic of the past CBA where that legally will not be allowed anymore once the new CBA kicks in in September 2026. Do you have any thoughts on that in terms of that being a component of this

and how they've been able to execute that? Because I think I was looking at this on cap wages today, they're paying out like $78 million, I think, in terms of signing bonuses, this off season, which is nearly the equivalent to the total salary some of these teams in the league are going to be paying for this year outright. And so that expenditure is obviously ridiculous,

but it's pretty easy to justify when you have the organizational buy-in, the owner willing to do so and pick up the tabs, and then following up on the ice pipe by winning a bunch of games and winning Stanley Cups and hoisting them and doing it all over again. Do you have any thoughts on that

and kind of how that relates to this conversation of the way they've been able to keep all these guys in Florida? Sure. I said it to Sasha Barkov. When the MOU came out, I said the Barkav model is dead, long-lived the Barkov model. Because not only did it benefit, Sasha, it benefit, I think, another eight players. And, you know, again, it's the credits, you know, to the violas.

You know, I think it's just a smart business. You know, I think a big problem in this game, a lot of owners are, they don't understand how to use the signing bonus properly. everyone thinks like July 1st, I need to bring truck at my door and you need to unload the cargo into my safe in my house. But, you know, the signing bonus can be paid out in installments and it still serves the same purpose for the player, for the team, you know, and for what the agent's trying to accomplish. So a lot of teams, you know, didn't really get it. We were, did a little bit of education with Columbus this summer and we were able to get a little bit of that for Ivan Proverov. you know, utilizing a staggered

assigning bonus and not just one lump sum. You know, so, you know, God bless, again, you know, Vinny for him stepping up and willing to do that and, you know, giving, you know, Bill Zito and Matt Caldwell the tools, you know, to put this team together. You know, I'm going to miss it for sure.

And I think it's a great way to reward. it's a great way to reward a player who, you know, who works hard, who cares about the team, who wants to be here. And in many cases, it's taking less money. And, you know, we did Barco's extension. You know, it was not COVID time frame. And, you know, you know, we probably could have gotten more somewhere else or maybe push for a little bit more. But we found the happy spot for everybody. And then, you know, Vinny gave us the structure that said, you know, you're committing to me. I'm committing everything to you and you're going to get, you know, everything that, you know, we're promising you. And that's how a structure really came about. And thankfully, it worked for other

guys too. And, you know, it's been a really good two-way. You know, the players get rewarded. They rewarded the owner with success and the manager and the president. So, you know, I think it's, you can't get more a win-win than that. Yeah, it's nice to get what you pay for. And the Panthers certainly have, Todd. In terms of the death of the Barkov model in the next 14 months. We saw this in 2013. The summer of 2013, and just off the top of my head, I can remember a couple deals done like September 14th,

2013, you had Wayne Simmons sign with the Philadelphia Flyers. You had Alex Burroughs signed with the Vancouver Canucks. I'm sure there's more examples. But sort of one of the most notable ones was that summer you had, Shea Weber, sign the offer sheet with Philadelphia. Philadelphia, right? That, you know, it was a classic like backdiving, long tail, you know, the exact type of contract that they got away, did away with in that sort of 2013 CBA between the PA and the league. And, you know, he was taking meetings with other teams and, and clearly sort of decided to do a deal under the current rules as opposed to taking the risk of sort of what this would look like on the other side. Now, back then the CBA expired and it was truly like, we don't know what's next. There's going to be a labor stoppage. We'll see what this all looks

like in January. And people didn't even know that we'd see what it all looked like in January. Now, players are at least going to have the ability to understand what the rules will look like on the other side of September 16, 2026. Nonetheless, next summer, we've got obviously a what looks to be a loaded UFA class, but also a variety of superstar level players who are going to be up the following year that will become extension eligible and able to do sort of their deals next summer under the current rules before the new CBA kicks in and the impact that that's going to have on variability and front loading and signing bonuses. Are we in for a pretty interesting summer next year, do you think, just sort of looking at your crystal ball and looking ahead where

there's something of a rush from players and their representatives to try and get deals done under the current framework before it goes away? For all those reasons, I think it benefits the team, benefits the club. You know, offering that, you know, that eighth year versus a seventh year, offering in some cases, if the owner is willing to do the structure, offering that, you know, that extra guarantee of, you know, $30 percent approximately, you know, is massive. So I really think it's going to benefit the clubs.

Is it going to work it out in every situation? I can't tell you because I'm not working with those players. But I think looking now from 5,000 feet, I think it's advantage to the teams. Right. Especially if you've got a player who maybe wasn't sure about remaining, and as you noted, that's not very common. But certainly a team that was going to have an issue,

perhaps retaining a star-level talent. they've just been handed a major weapon, surely. Yes, that and also, again, the way the team operates, the way the team treats and cares for its players. You know, another thing that Florida Panthers have done and how they treat the players, you know, they're just kicking and firing on all cylinders. You know, but there are other organizations that treat players, you know,

very well and also have some of those players coming up for contract. But I still think it's, the teams are probably, and the, you know, maybe have another inch of the driver's seat in the situation. Yeah, it's fascinating because Thomas and I did our show yesterday, kind of teeing up having you on today. And then we went to, you know, a peek behind the curtains at our process. We went for a lovely bike ride. We're kicking around topics. We're hanging out at the pool and enjoying the sun here in Vancouver.

And we were talking about this very thing. And we both agreed how I think it's a pretty under discussed at this time, maybe because it's looking too far ahead. Everyone's kind of got tunnel vision for what's going on this. summer, but this idea of there being this three-month window essentially next summer from July 1st when some of these 2027 are not only UFAs, but RFAs as well, and that's a loaded class with young players, are going to have until September 16th, essentially, to sign eight-year deals potentially that are going to be much more lucrative in terms of the structuring.

And then all the fallout from that, whether it's the team who currently holds them having more bargaining power to retain that player and make it worth their while, or if they decide a trade's not going to material or a signing is not going to materialize, giving them a legitimate bargaining chip to entice a team that would otherwise pursue them in free agency to acquire them now and lock them into that deal and make it happen now as opposed to what we might have seen previously with this kind of game of chicken where it's reported that a team's going to be interested in a player, but they're going to wait because they don't want to move out two or three young pieces. They want to keep all those guys and build a great team.

You talk about that supporting cast for some of these star players and how important that is to have that around you if you really want to win. And so it's just going to entirely change that dynamic. And so for a lot of these guys, they probably will just stay with their existing teams because that's how this stuff typically plays out in the NHL. But in certain instances, I think it's going to lead to a lot of very fascinating conversations and potentially more activity than we're typically accustomed to seeing. Yeah, I would agree with you.

I think also going from 95 and a half to 104. And those teams with those players typically will spend to that number. And then I need to also dive down deeper in the row. and see who else might or may not be up for a contract. But teams should have enough wiggle room next summer that they should be able to accommodate, you know, these star players, how far they want to go and on term. And all these things remain to be seen. You know, we go from 103 to 113 and a half.

And then I don't know where, you know. So, you know, hopefully not downwards. But, you know, the sports in a good place financially, the teams should be able to manage their caps generally without too much issue and too many hiccups. You know, and then, again, you know, certain teams are going to have to pay to the floor at a minimum. And certain teams are in markets where you need to start getting competitive. You know, you need to get out of the rebuilding vortex. You know, some teams they get stuck in the eye of the hurricane. And they can't get out, you know.

So, you know, saying you want to rebuild is, you know, was in vogue for many years until you can't get out of it, you know. So, you know, you need to, you know, you need, you know, good GMs, identifying good players, identifying those, you know, those, you know, middle class players I described earlier, you know, who can help the young players and push them and get those young players to be your league. and be your star players. You know, Alexander Barkov, he wasn't a leader when he first came in, but, you know,

he learned from everybody. And, you know, he matured. And, you know, now, you know, he's,

you know, he's exceeded my expectations for what he could be as a player and a person. With what you're talking about there, the idea of an increase in talent concentration, the desirability of,

of, you know, these contending teams, the way that talent is going, to concentrate on those rosters and then those teams are going to have more levers to keep that talent around as opposed to the cycle we've seen where a Stanley Cup winner is going to bleed good players to other teams and sort of that that dispersal that drove parity through much of the hard cap era if that's coming to an end right and and i think we're beginning to see the seeds of

it then you know cap space ceases to be the scarcest resource that managers of teams have to be aware of and talent, right, becomes the scarcest resource. And what I'm curious about from a player agents and a player's perspective is do you get to a point where, and maybe we're there already, where a player on July 1 starts taking pitches and you can go be a $5 million player for a contending team, right, on a two-year deal, but you can hit a home run with a team that's, you know, further away, perhaps, or a less desirable location.

And then does that in any way impact sort of an agent's role in terms of like trying to bet on an ascending team that may not be viewed as a contender, may have the cap space and the resources for your client to hit home run, but also if we go there, we could have our cake and eat it too. Does that become sort of part of the conversation or considerations set for a player rep and his client going forward? Definitely. You know, when you're looking at other alternatives for whatever reason, you know, you definitely want to see what that, you know, the cast of players looks like, what the, you know,

the draft choices, the reserve list looks like. There are definitely issues. And not only the talent, but what drives those players, you know, am I going to, you know, am I coming to a young man who's really motivated, wants to be great? Or am I just, you know, coming to a guy who just wants to, you know, be on the highlight reel? you know, get his social media followers or maybe not really committed to being the first guy on and the last guy off, which your leaders need to be,

to be successful. So, yeah, those factors definitely, you know, come into the conversation. You know, a king of like conversation, you know, with me and William Meckland, you know, really liking the way things are starting to come into form in San Jose and just giving it a little bit more time. for my career,

also giving William more time. You know, I think if we, you know, if he said to me, I need five years or if I said to him, I need five years, it would have happened at that number two, at that term too, because there's a belief in the player and who he is. You know, but we, you know, both parties want a little more time to see if this is going to develop and what we both think it can develop into. So those conversations definitely happen.

You also need to know the management, the scouting staff. You know, 32 teams talk to me about development, but I can't say that all 32 teams approach it the same way or as successful the same way. So there are so many different elements in the game right now that affect that, you know, the situation with the CHL and NCAA. Right. It's a big impact on, you know, how things are going to work out. And, you know, like talking about like Gavin McKenna's decision and Verhoff's decision, you know, going from 70 games to 35 games for me is a huge difference. You know, and then also, you know, there are still NCAA rules in place of how much coaching you can get. I can pay the player $500,000, you know, $500,000, but I can't coach them.

It's nonsense, you know. This NCAA is just, you know, they're just lost in the. the forest, these people. I don't think they'll ever get it right. So, but, you know, fewer games, less kind of coaching time. You know, it's just, there's a lot going on. And no one's really sure how it's going to work, but it's certainly going to be interesting. I'm curious for your take on when we're talking about the CBA, and obviously it's kind of

the early stages of parsing through it and digesting it. I'm sure you're much further ahead in that process than Thomas and I are here. But in doing some of my early prep work for it, obviously we talk about the different contract structures now and the term and the signing bonuses and all that. Whether it's the new LTIR format and how that's going to affect the playoffs or the idea of some of these double retention trades we've seen every deadline that have really permeated through it and become in vogue,

that being more difficult with the 75-day window that needs to be in place between a first and second retention or even the 84 games coming up in the regular season. And are there any other sort of either notes or details in the CBA that you've seen that you think listeners would be interested in in terms of the impact they're going to have in terms of how business is conducted in the league, how we sort of absorb all of this stuff over the next 12 to 24 months essentially? Yeah, I mean, you know, the second retention, you know, situation is going to be interesting. You know, I like free markets. I think markets need to be liquid and to be flexible and to move, especially when you have a ceiling and a floor. You know, you need as much movement inside those structures as possible.

So, you know, I always thought, you know, the retention was a positive thing because everybody got the benefit of the bargain. Everybody got something out of the transaction. And smart cap management, you know, got you an asset. you know, going back to a client of mine, I've approved of, you know, part of his last contract when he was traded was on the books of the LA Kings. The LA Kings were a very competitive team, but they got something for keeping that money on the books. So I thought it was a positive for the game, but, you know, that's not my territory to negotiate. You know, we just have to implement it and see how it works in practice. You know, some other elements.

of it. I mean, we'll just have to see the salary cap, the signing bonus, I'm sorry, is one thing that's, you know, that's going to help teams, I guess, you know, still, I think they're going to be teams like St. Louis, you know, that never paying a signing bonus for whatever reason. But, you know, they need to look at it as money. It's just money.

You know, but how can we bring in this, you know, if Player X next summer says, I'm going on the open market and St. Louis is interesting to me. You know, how do you get around that, not having that conversation of being able to add a player without only paying him money, not giving up an asset? You know, you need to have that conversation and get in the game. So I think, you know, that potentially could be interesting if players are looking to go play elsewhere. But I think the things you hit on are really the, you know, the ones that are going to be for a player. agent dealt with on a common basis.

It felt to me, Todd, just big picture, the 30K, 30,000 K view of it, a foot view of it, was it felt like a peacetime CBA where the league's priority in terms of rule changes were to eliminate shenanigans, both the honorable variety that allow you to toll cap space and the less honorable variety that allow you to use LTI to exceed the cap. And that seems to be like throughout. And the fact that it was sort of double-sided, right? The playoff cap and the LTI limits, but also the paper transaction, the elimination of paper transactions and the sort of limit on retained salary transactions,

you know, in every way it feels like a simplification or an effort to try and just simplify the overall cap management exercises that we see teams go through. And I don't understand what problem they're really trying to fix there is sort of what my kind of issue is. It almost feels like a dumbing down of sort of the overall hockey management. But that feels like a real priority throughout this. And then obviously the league gets some advantages in terms of contract structure, two extra games and the term limits. And then from the player's side,

it felt like lifestyle priorities were kind of the the major things there and some benefit structures. So I sort of come out of it as usual thinking that I prefer this deal from the owner's side and that I don't really understand the global effort to simplify cap management that the league is trying to push through. It feels a little bit prehistoric and very much out of step with where the rest of the professional sports industry is going with like the NBA second apron or, you know, the different NFL contracts and initiatives. Like everything else is getting more complicated in terms of this side of the game. In the NHL, it seems like, is really sort of zagging where everyone else is zinging here.

Is that a fair recap? Well, that's a lot to unpack in there. You know, I would say, you know, from my perspective, you know, the players negotiated and got real money. which is all these auxiliary dollars that were coming out of the player share into all different types of insurances and what have you. So they got very real money that we can quantify versus tightening on the system and tightening on the rules.

You know, how it works out we'll know in probably in two years, you know, where it goes. But I just was my train of thought. But, you know, getting back to the LTIR, I think that's interesting. If you look at everything, they easily found common ground, the association and the NHL, except for how we should use the LTIR in the playoffs. They gave themselves some wiggle room because I don't think they want to really punish teams. You know, if a player really has a surgery and, you know, I want to play in the playoffs. I want to have it now.

You know, how can you punish everybody for that? you know, for the player wanting to play in the most important time of the year. So I think they, you know, there was some, a lot, you know, a lot of wisdom, a lot of, you know, understanding between the parties, not really knowing how that's going to work. And let's give each other, you know, some flexibility in there to see how it, how it does work in practice. And if it doesn't, then we'll agree to make adjustments. So I thought that was a smart move on both sides. But otherwise, you know, things are, you know, pretty much the same.

you know, sometimes the sequel is better, sometimes the sequel is worse. You know, it's going to be seen how people perceive this. Well, that was awesome, Todd. Thank you so much for taking the time. This was a perfect start to our series here this week. And thank you also for confirming that you were the one

that was in fact educating Don Waddell. I have no doubt, but it's good to have that on record. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you to everyone for listening to us. If you enjoyed today's show, we'll be back tomorrow with another episode. You can give us a five-star review wherever you listen, join us in the PDOCAST Discord,

and we will be back tomorrow. I believe Brennan Dylan is joining us in studio, so we're going to get the players' perspective on this and keep the good times going. Thank you for listening to the Hockey-Pedocat streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.