The Hockey PDOcast - Summer Series Part 2 With Brenden Dillon

Episode Date: July 16, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance and Brenden Dillon to talk about his first year in New Jersey, the growing list of responsibilities that come with being a defenseman in the NHL in 2025, and how much the game has changed since he first got into the league. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEDEOCast. My name is Dmitri Filipovich and joining me here in studio, my good buddy Thomas Trans. Tom, what's going on? Let's go, buddy. Excited about this one. I'm very excited about this one. We teased it a bit yesterday. We had Todd Diamond on. We're doing people in the game week. And we had Todd Diamond on. I got to say, I was excited about it because I was a fan of the work you'd done certainly this off season and cleaning up in free agency. So are his clients. You had spoken highly about him, and then he just blew me away. Like he came in hot.

We were making jokes about Don Waddell and his interactions with him. He was giving us the insight on William Ecclain's Bridge deal this summer. It was fantastic. We're going to keep it going. We got the agent perspective. We're going to get the player perspective now. Joining us in studio, Brendan Dillon making his return appearance after a triumphant debut last year. I got so much good feedback on that show.

People love your candor, the way you came in. We talked a lot about your free agency and signing with the devils and everything. Let's get to have you back. How's it going on? Yeah, no, it's going great. It's almost the anniversary of it. It was right around early, early mid-July, I think, last year.

So we're going to make this a yearly thing, I guess. It will be. Let's go. We'll see. Yeah, yeah. I got to hold up to expectations. Like, I mean, we set the bar last summer. Well, I think that means the expectations are on me, right?

Because I got to come in and not mess with the chemistry. I've got to fit in. Yeah, there's one different denominator this year. So, your answer, we'll see. We'll see how it goes. So let's start with this, because, as I said, when I had you on last year, we were sort of looking ahead to your decision assigned with the devils, kind of what that would look like, the expectations heading in.

You got a year under your belt now. I want to talk to you a little bit about how that transpired because I think, you know, Tom and I spoke probably a disproportionate amount of time about the Devils this season. And in particular, I think it was right up until the Christmas break, right? You guys had some of the best defensive metrics in the league. I think you were actually leading the league in goals against at the time with the few us allowed, top three in pretty much every metric you look at.

and in watching you guys play, it was exactly what I had expected from a Sheldon Keeve team, especially with the personnel group you guys had, which was kind of this modern way of defending, right? It was taking away time and space, just having the puck more often than your opponent. There was that one game right before the holiday break. I remember Tom and I were watching it here in studios against the Rangers. I think you guys were at home. Yeah, last game before Christmas. And you had run off this streak of keeping opponents to like 12 to 15 shot on goal pretty much the entire time.

I think the Rangers were at 12 in that one. And it was really the peak of that now. Obviously, you guys had a bunch of injuries the rest of the way leading into the postseason. But I kind of want to talk to you a little bit about how that transition was, what that sort of whether it met your expectations in terms of what you expected from the style of play, and then kind of how that all unfolded, obviously, in your first year being there. Yeah, it was, I mean, for a defensive guy, it was nice that we were really from training camp put an emphasis on that.

And I think that was kind of the messaging from day one. Like, we always knew, like, the devils, they've been known as a team that can score. tons of offense and Jack Hughes, Esper Brat, Nico Heeshier, Timo Meyer, like, you know, they could score goals. And so we worked on defense and we, you know, talked about structure. We played with structure and, you know, kind of showed that we could do it. And unfortunately, you know, you always talk about teams when they're rolling. The last thing you want is to have a break of any sort.

Yeah. Eat some holiday food. Yeah, call it two days. Call it two weeks. Yeah, we basically from Christmas on, we're really just trying to get back to that. And it was a combination of everything. Like, of course, I think the, you know, Kiefer, of course, laid out the plan for us,

but I think the guys really bought into it. And we're like, okay, maybe a little bit less on this side to have a little bit more of the focus on D. And we were winning hockey games, which always helps. And everybody then gets excited about it and dials it in. And as you said, it was kind of like a modern day. It's not like we were just like, gay guys, we're not crossing the red line. and we're getting it back into the old.

You dump it in, get back on you. Yeah, the devil's 90s of like, you know, just trap it up. We were playing fairly like, I think our power play was still cooking, which obviously helps. And our special teams were a big focus point on, you know, PK and P.P and PK and PK and P.P. Don't be humble about it. I think you guys was top three. Well, you don't want to brag too much.

But, yeah. Second best PK. I don't know. Yeah. Second best PK in the league, which we'll tip our cap to. And P. I think P.P. I think it was top three. I think it was top three, but not three.

Okay, okay. And not one, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, we made a focus on that stuff too because I think as the season progressed and, you know, you get into the bulk of the kind of December to February months where it's a grind and there are starting to be some injuries. You need your special teams to be good,

but you also need your defending to be good. And we had some great goaltending too. Marky and Jake had great seasons. Yeah, and all in all, it was just a little bit of a combination of everything. There was lots of new personnel, I think, between the forwards and D. There was at least five or six new boss.

new coaching staff, new goalies. So a lot of change. With an opportunity, because it's been interesting to see we see so much Jack Hughes on highlight as you watch him play on the power play and he goes to the puck beaver tails and everyone resets around him. I mean, the skill level of your top end guys is so wild. And yet when the Devils, both this season but also before you went there,

were at their best, it was using the speed. of their top end guys in the service of defending. Are those guys underrated in terms of their defensive abilities, what you see on a regular basis? I think so. I mean, I just think until you can really get in and day-to-day, be on the ice with, practice with, see their habits.

You know, like, especially for a guy that was in the West for most of my career. You can't really appreciate how good those players are and how much good they do. Like I think a guy like Nico Hesier might have been second in the league and face-offs taken this year. and he also scored 30 goals and was also matched up against top lines

and doing all these things and obviously before Jack got injured was having a fantastic year and we all, you know, he's a superstar. He's, you know, leads our team in that. He is, he is the, you know, the face of the devils,

which is exciting to be a part of. And when you see these guys and the work they put in and, you know, then you bring in the new staff this year and kind of the new approach to doing things, it's funny when I talked to like Bradder and these guys like I think I know Sheldon Keith was like they're like fourth coach in like you know four six years right like they had I think it was Heinz Lindy Ruff Travis Green then like Sheldon Kee so there's a lot of

moving parts too and obviously Kiefer's back this year and you know I think that's something for us as the players like you know I was fortunate enough to be in San Jose for five of my six years was with Pete the Boar so it's like years two three four or five like there's no excuses you know how we play, you know, what the practices are most likely going to be like, you know, what training camp's going to look like. There's not really a question mark of, okay, how are we expected to play? Like, you know, what role does he want me in? Which as you, you know, get older, you understand in the niche that you're in, what you

need to do to be successful and you're always trying to get better and grow your game every year. But I think for those top end guys, when you watch the Barkovs, like, like Barkov can put up still 70, 80, 90 points, 100 points a year and shut down the top guys and have, you know, you know that mindset of it and I think we know we're talking about one of the best players in the world but I think for for our team and our top-end guys they they're really motivated to be that they want to be up there with the best and this year coming up in Olympic year again where you know it's best on best during the NHL season and during during that so yeah all those guys it's I had a lot more

of an appreciation for how they how they are how good they are just really yeah and everything well when watching the four nations we spoke about this a lot of the time because we were doing shows right after particularly after the the final game against canada the team USA lost and there was this perception coming out of that tournament because jack hughes had played down the lineup in a different role and people were just looking at his point totals and it wasn't necessarily reflective of what you'd expect from in new jersey where he gets the play top unit power play everything's kind of funneling through him and there's this perception for whatever reason that like he was disappointing that tournament as if it proved that like he

couldn't hang with the best in the world. And we were pushing back strongly at the time because you go and watch those. And that line was tasked with so much of the defensive responsibilities and in terms of kind of tracking and sticking the guys in the neutral zone, just having the puck and killing time when Canada had their best players out there. And I thought he did a phenomenal job in that. And sort of it takes a little rewiring, right? Because I think like in the 90s and early 2000s and even 2010s, defensive forwards all looked

a certain way in terms of both body type, but then also like, how they were playing in terms of just like holding on a guys and not really letting them do what they wanted to do. And there's still some of that. And there is still some of that, especially once you get to the playoffs, but he does it in a much different manner. And there's a bunch of guys around the league you could say that about. And so part of it is just effort in applying yourself,

but I think you've already seen that through some of these checkpoints. And so I'm really glad Tom brought that up. I'm curious, like I have a bunch of questions here for you in terms of the season you just had. And I'm fascinated to hear your take on who the toughest opponent you guys matched up with was. Because I think for most teams, the answer would be Florida, but you guys actually played them pretty well.

You had that back-to-back in November, and those were two of the best games. I thought I watched from the Devils all year, in particular one of those where I think it was like a 6-2 final, and you guys were cooking offensively, lost the third one at home in a shootout, but it was a tight game, held them to four goals in those three games. So maybe that's not.

Your answer, although it was a defenseman, I mean, dealing with that forecheck must be a nightmare. It's so funny, like, even from my first year until now, like, I feel like my first year, there's a couple of teams where you're going, you're like, okay, no matter how bad we play tonight, we're probably winning. Yeah. Like, you know, and I'm not going to say those teams now,

but now, like, the parody of the league, like, it doesn't matter, you know, if this past year, I don't even know if it finished, like Chicago or, like, those teams have chances to win every night. A goalie gets hot. The power play gets hot. You know, their superstar takes over the games, whatever it is. So every team is really good. But Florida, for sure, when you look at that team and playing a game,

Yeah, we won those back-to-back games in Florida. But, you know, you're going in after, you're like, holy, the body. You felt every one of those shifts. Oh, you felt every one of the hits. You felt every one of the boxouts. You felt every one of the, like, just the battle stuff that went on. And I know, Carolina is a team again that, you know, we all know, like, we play them in playoffs. And, you know, you know what to expect from them.

Like, you know the for check's coming. You know that the flip is coming out from the D. Like, like, you know this stuff. And they know that you know that they know it's coming, right? But it's still, it's hard hockey to play games. And Florida played that way, too. You know, we had a, I remember playing Vegas this year in Jersey, and it was just like men against boys, they were so good, so rock solid.

I mean, you know, when teams are built through the middle, and, you know, their centermen, you know, the Ikels, I think that, yeah, it was like Jack Eichel, Hurdle, Nick Wall. Yeah. That's a pretty deadly, you know. one through three, and then you throw in the guys that they, you know, pick up with the deadline and whatnot. I think for me, I remember that Vegas game being like, wow, like, that's a hockey team. They're good. Florida, the same thing. And, you know, I think that's a credit to those teams that year after years seem to be always having success.

Yeah. You bring up Carolina in Florida, and I find it interesting the way that we're seeing sort of that Brindamore-style stress hockey. Yeah. Right? Yeah. kind of dominate in the east anyway. Yeah. And I just wonder, you know, you've been around long enough to sort of see changes in terms of the way the NHL games played and sort of what the emphasis is

and what the best teams are doing to win. And I'm curious if there's been a shift where, you know, away to some extent from a possession-based game, a game that's maybe a little bit more based off of retrievals. And how do you experience that as a, you know, defensive defenseman who thinks a lot about your craft. Yeah. Well, don't tell them so.

I think you scored eight goals last year years ago? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to pray. Okay, I had eight a couple years ago. I had, we all remember.

You had the, you had the overtime goal beating the Canucks in their golden era season two, right? There's a wicked rich shot. Jamie Ben and Yarraeager that passed.

Nasty business, that might be. I'm not selling this guy show. I don't know. I don't know if I scored a nicer goal in that, to be honest. You know,

I might have got a little too excited early, but, yeah. I got it too excited. Yeah, sorry. I know. No, I, um, you know, I really do think like that stress hockey, um, like there's a fine line.

Like, you're not going to ask Jack Hughes to get over the red line and dump it in every time. Right. You know, the same way that you wouldn't want Quinn Hughes just, you know, high flipping it out of the zone every time. So I think there's a, there's a happy medium of, of that kind of game. And, you know, the Sebastian Aho's, um, um, you know, you know, the Andres Sveschnikovs, like, those are high, high-end talented players. And I think in a perfect world finding that mix where, okay, the demon has a really good gap, part of my forwards are changing.

I really don't have anything here. And maybe instead of me trying to toe drag it and turning it over and going the other way, I'm going to put the buck in a good spot where, you know, the guy's coming on with Brad, like, that's kind of the mindset I feel like of those high, high-end guys, you know, the Sam Reinhards. You know, the Matthew Kichucks, the Barkovs, like these guys can make those plays, and they've proven that they can make those plays. But at the same time, they can recognize when is, you know, when is it that worth me taking that one-on-one opportunity? Because as a demon, yeah, I still feel the hardest playing hockey is a rim around the yellow with, you know,

crappy NHL ice from the NBA game the night before on whatever, puck bouncing, and Tom Wilson's coming in to absolutely run you through the boards. You know, like how do I pick that puck up off the yellow? Probably on my back end most likely with pressure, you know, five guys coming at you, find the open guy, hit it on the tape, get that puck going north. And that's a skill that I've been working on for 34 years. I think every deematory practice, we're working on it. And it's such an emphasis to basically get the puck off the yellow,

get the puck to the middle. And ultimately you want to get it out of your zone, which sometimes that is the off the glass note, sometimes it is the high flip. But it's definitely a skill just the same way as it is as having a one time where you put it under the bar. With those teams, though, that are really disruption-based

in terms of how they're looking to attack you, do you feel a different level of pressure skating back today than you would have five, six years ago? Because it looks to me like you would. Oh, 100%. Yeah, and it's relentless. And that's part of the kind of like the game within the game, like, yeah, there's the game within the game of the fight and the

intimidation factor, but there's also the game within the game of, you know, turning a team over and outchanging them and having guys be stuck on the ice for a minute, two minutes at a time, having them ice it and getting fresh guys out there, getting your top guys out. So that's kind of where I feel like, you know, a team like Caroline tries to come at you. You know, every team watches video now. Every team is doing their homework and, you know, there's no perfect system out there. I think we are for the most part of Copycat League.

So whatever Florida did last year, teams are going to try and do this year. Same thing that it was when Vegas won. Same thing it was when, you know, all these other teams win the next year because that team was the best. So there's absolutely

a higher level of that. You know, there's also, you know, when you're playing a team that's, that's run and gun, that's got a ton of skill offensively. You've got to be aware of that too. Like some teams, you know, whether the coach to do that or they just do that

or, you know, they almost refuse to be. dump it. It's like, okay. Montreal, right? Montreal, where it's, you know, yeah, you have to have your gaps be on point, your stick's got to be there because, you know, even though you know this guy's going to try and beat you one-on-one, like, you know, a Cole Caulfield or a Nick Suzuki, can't do that. Yeah. And, you know, he don't want to be on TSN. Getting embarrassed, so there's a fine line for sure. Have you been on, uh, because they were talking about this during the playoffs this year. Have you been on the receiving end of one of those,

you're going back to play the puck, Tom Wilson's barreling down on you and he warns you beforehand. Well, Willie's a good buddy of mine, so I'd like to think that before he would blow me up. You know, he would at least give me a heads up, Dili, I'm coming. You know, of course, you repay the favor on that end. But, yeah, I think, to a point, you never want anybody get hurt. And I think, you know, from the most physical guys, you know, I know Tom, I know, you know, other physical, Jamie Ben. Myself, like, you never want anybody to get hurt ever in the game. But, you know, not all of us run the power play.

So there are, you know, forechecking. you know open ice hits whatever that might be um you know you got to be cognizant of that and you want guys to be playing and having success but um yeah definitely four checks you got to have your head up i'm curious for your take on this because i think i've asked a bunch of defensemen and and varying opinions on it what do you think is tougher to deal with a guy who's going to come in and and try to blow you up and hit you or a guy who's with his motor and his reach and everything going to try to knock the puck away and disrupt that way in terms of like As a guy playing in the puck where, let's say, your partner retrieves in and bumps it over to you,

just like the most annoying forecheckers to deal with and what your personal preference is and what you think is the most effective in today's game. So I think that's similar to the, you know, we talk about the Sebastian Ajo, you know, when to dump it in, when to hold on to and make a play. It is kind of like the defensive mindset of that, right? Like, I'm going back for this puck. I'm looking at it, like, who's coming in on me, you know, is this, you know, a Brock best for Elias Pedersen or, you know, is this, again, like a Tom Wilson or a Sam Bennett, you know,

like coming in that's just going to put me through the wall. And that comes into, like, the deception part of going back for pucks. You know, am I doing a fake, like, with certain guys? You know, if Ryan Reeves is coming, like, I'm getting that out of my hands and getting going the other way. You know, some of these skilled guys are coming in that, you know, again, aren't, you know, they play hard and they can do that. But, you know, a lot of times, like a Mitch Marner, That's one of the best things I think about him and why he's one of the best penalty killers in the game is because his instincts and his ability to read the play

and see, okay, yeah, most oftentimes I remember on that pre-scope, you know, New Jersey's trying to go with the weak side. So when Dylan goes back, he's probably going over to Hamilton who's then going to keep it going versus, you know, me seeing that, maybe catching him, going an extra step, taking that, coming back up the wall, making the play.

And, you know, there's a cat and mouse game that happens a lot. And again, that kind of goes back to that. game within the game and in all facets of it. Yeah, I mean, when Tom was talking about kind of the copycat element and how it's shifted in terms of the playing style right now, you see that in the playoffs a lot, right? In terms of how predominantly just important the forecheck game is and how many turnovers are caused all that. Because you're not all you're not having a bunch of real estate to just move up and down the ice freely anymore. And that's why I think like pure skating speed in terms

of straight line A to B is probably becoming the most overrated tool. In, in it, in, it's a lot. In the game, like, when you talk about like, like, okay, Nathan McKinnon is 24 miles an hour. And like this guy and his team is so slow. He's only 23.2. It's like, it's like, it's like, you know, that point eight. Like, you know, yeah, maybe he's getting through. Or like even, you know, even driving in a car. Like, you know, you're driving 23 versus 22.

And like, like one mile an hour is fast. But how many times during a game does a D-Men maybe not have his gap taken the way or the center being above taken away that or you have to go around? Like, absolutely there's going to be time. where guys can get to that full bore from literally blue line to far side. But like that's literally our job or the centerman's job to get above these McDavid's,

McKinnon's, Braden Point. Like these guys that can fly. But I think from the teams I've played on that have had success in teams that have come in and I've played on been like, wow. Like that wasn't bright. Like forecheck is everything. The forecheck controls because when I get off

after my shift and I sit down, I've grabbed water, I'm looking at my deep part of me like, this is what we're in for all night. Like, we're going to have these guys come and flying at us all night long. Like this is going to be, like this isn't going to be fun. And on the other side of things, if we get in, we're turning pucks over, we're getting pucks and getting ozone time and outchanging them, it's just like, this is how it's going to be

tonight. Unreal. You know, this is going to be a treat. So there's definitely, I think the forecheck is just so crucial. Yeah. The skating speed is overblown. The playing fast is. the new thing, right? Like in terms of decision making, whether you have that split second,

you're talking about the difference between 23.4 and 24 miles an hour or whatever, like, going back and within that snap judgment, either making a play, we're just bumping it off and living a fight another day, all throughout the ice in all three zones. I feel like that, like playing fast versus skating fast is a very important delineation. We've already seen it. I remember like the Penguins team's the one back-to-backups under Mike Sullivan, right? That was like, the trademark of theirs because they didn't necessarily have a bunch of Blazers, but they just played so fast as a connective team. But they were a pure punt and hunt team.

Yes. They were like one of the first teams, I feel like that began to disrupt the possession-based game that, you know, Quenville's Blackhawks and the L.A. Kings under Sutter play. Bring King back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, the roller hockey breakouts. And then, and then I feel like that Penguins team, I remember them really well because that was just pure punt and hunt.

And then the Predators team they met in the finals was the same, even though they had a bunch of talented puck movers. It was like, if Yossi wasn't on the ice, that was just going glassing out. And the big, the big thing about, you know, playing fast, is it's not necessarily, like, get the puck and move it as quick as possible. It's almost like your forwards and D knowing

where that puck's going. So, you know, like, you look at a team like Florida, like, yeah, and, you know, that's going to be the bar. They've just won back to back. They've been to the cup final three times in row. But looking at their team, you're not like, you know, yeah, you got the Verhege's and you've got, you know, the fourslings

and these guys that can absolutely burn. But you've also got, like, like, a guy like Barcov and Kachuk, you're not going to be like those guys are like, you know, two the fastest guys in the league. But they know when their Dman go back in a certain situation, okay, maybe if there's a soft ship, it's probably coming up the

strong side, I can start going there. Hey, the puck's probably going over. I can start going there. And even for the weak side, Dman, if I'm, you know, on overs, for instance, if I'm going D to D to D and I know my partner is not going to be coming back to me, I can start going. I can be in that hole for that fourth man's ice. I can be available for an extra spot. So instead of it being a flip and almost, like you said, a punt, you know, we're going to exit with possession. We're going to be able to come out. Same thing in the ozone, you know, if a puck's going to be able to. into a certain area and that guy knows where his sport's going to be he knows he's got a bump to

the middle or he knows he's got a weak side rim he knows his d man's going to be at the far side on the blue line like it just makes things easier and um you know again playing faster as opposed to like just you know being faster well and what enables that we talked a lot about the you know the direction from a business respect to the league's changing with the new cba kick in and next year and how i think with the cap going up as well it's going to make it easier for teams to stick together for the most part like where there's a will is away and we just saw with florida You win, you're successful guys want to stay there. You have the room to accommodate it.

And so I think that level of continuity as well plays into that as well, kind of knowing where it's going to be everyone being part of that well-oiled machine. And so I do wonder, like, if we're going to push even further that direction with teams just having the same group of guys. There's going to be certainly, especially if you're successful guys price themselves out, go to new places for a payday. But we're moving away from that era where like you win a cup and your entire third line and your second parody.

all of a sudden go somewhere else as we saw with Tampa during the flat cap, like that's probably not going to be a reality anymore. And so I think it's going to become an even bigger facet of the game. 100%. And those conversations go on in between shifts and between periods. You know, there's a reason why when, you know, I know McDavid and Drysell are two of the best in the world to ever play the game. But like when they go together, they know exactly where the other guy is going to be.

You know, Mariner Matthews, you know, Point Kuturov. You can really go down of guys that like, you know, even Bratter and Jack. like Jack and Bratter, I mean, it was a treat to watch when those two get together because they know, they think the game the same and they can execute it that way too. You had, you played for the Capitals, you played with Joe Thornton and company with the Sharks. So you've actually seen some of the, like, best examples that we could come up with in the hard cap era of teams where they've had enough continuity. Yeah. That we started to see weird stuff like the, you know, eyes in the back of the head, John Carlson, Ovechkin, Tom Wilson. and T.J. O'Shee back in the day.

I mean, those guys just knew exactly where one another was backstrom before. Obviously, the injury is caught up to them. When we think about the idea of continuity and sort of the chemistry that teams are going to be able to build, does that change in any way, how you have to approach defending guys? Like, is there things you have to be aware of with Drysidal McDavid where it's like, oh, I don't have to be aware of that with other people? We only have 50 minutes here. I mean, he's going to be able to go through everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I mean, you... Because I'm excited about it as a fan, but as a guy whose job is to stop all the stuff that I'm going to enjoy, you must... Come on, guys, you just communicate, at least once. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, there's only, I feel like there's only so many new things that can really come out. Like, I don't know how much you can, you know, reinvent the wheel offensively, but, you know, it seems like like Power Play's this year, I think we're at another all-time high, so obviously they're figuring something out. Not when they're playing the devils. Yeah, or they're coming to Newark, no. But, like, it's just little stuff of how much homework's done and guys got their skills coaches and you're watching so much of teams.

Like, you know, like these coaches watch video and video and video. And when, you know, for us as teams and players, we've got meeting after meeting after meeting. And I think that, you know, during the regular season is when there really is new things. Because in playoffs, it's like there's no stone unturned. And really it comes down to the competitiveness. and like, like, really, like, I know everything about you.

I know everything about what your line does, what you as a player do, what you bring. But whereas they're in the regular season, yeah, I feel like that's a little bit of trial and error. Like obviously over an 82 game schedule, you got a bit more runway to really do that. But, you know, a lot of us as players, like, I mean, I love watching hockey. You know, I love, like, obviously playing hockey. But, you know, I'm watching lots of highlights and seeing how things are going as well as a lot of other guys in the league. So it's not like when we, you know, you play a team maybe from the West and you're like, like, oh, geez, wow, I've never seen that before. It's like, you know, for the most part, seeing trends that guys have, things they like to try.

You know, and guys are coming down on you have a pretty good idea. Is this guy a passer? You know, is Joe Thornton passed on the puck? Probably 99%. And he's still probably going to sauce it over me. But, you know, when other guys come in, too, like, there's a good chance. Austin Matthews probably going to rip this thing, you know. So it's picking up on that.

I think that's part of being a pro too is knowing your opponent and knowing, you know, maybe the line you're matched up against or who you're, you know, going to be seeing on the other side, who their best players are, what their stuff looks like. So there's, there's a lot of that for sure. Well, let's take our break here. And then when we come back, we'll John Bradbeck and we're going to close out today's show with Brandon Dillon. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. We're back here on the Hockeypediodac.O.cast joined by Thomas Trance and our good buddy Brennan, let's keep it going. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this in prepping for today's show

In looking at your career because you know you've been fortunate to be in the league for a long time now and just how much Things have changed One of your years in Dallas, I think it might have been the year you wound up being traded But that was the year in 2014-15 when Jamie Ben won the art Ross on the final night with 87 points, right? And you look at it now I think like 16 guys had more than that Last season Yeah Like 12 guys had more than 90 points like

last season to put that into perspective. I think when you were first coming into the league, it was like the peak or an eight year, depending on your perspective, if you're a forward or a goalie, where the same percentage league wide was 915. This year, it's 900 and just kind of trying to frame how much it's changed. I imagine from like a preparation perspective has changed so much, not just like the tools available to technology, everyone buying in, whether it's all the training in the offseason, the skills coaches for some of these forwards. And then in season, whether it's prepping for your opponents, making sure your body's right? I imagine, like, it's just night and day from

2013 when you first started to what it's looking like 2025 right now. Well, my whole argument for it being hard to score in the league went a lot easier when the top guy had 87 points now. Guys have 110, 110, 150, and it's like, it's like, why don't you score more goals? It's like, well, you know,

I was too busy passing it to Doug Yale year. No, I was kidding. But it's, uh, it is really crazy to see, you know, I guess 13, this will be 14 years, 13, 14 years. 13, 14 years, how much things have changed and just how much more important the practice time is and the off-lice time is. And when you go back to summer, you know, in your summers and you're working on your game,

like, it doesn't matter if you're a fourth-line guy playing six minutes a night or your, you're, you know, top guy in your team. Like, you've got to continue to work on your game because we've all seen, you know, whether that's guys getting moved out, like a team will find a way to get somebody else that can do the job. So also just having, I think having not being vanilla, I don't know if that makes sense, like having a role and what you bring. You know, if you're a third line player, are you bringing energy? Are you, you know, forechecking?

Are you able to, you know, if you're only chipping into the five, ten goals, what else are you bringing? If you're a defensive defenseman, you know, can you, you know, are you being physical? Are you a shot blocker? Do you have a good stick? Like, like, what else can you bring to the table? And I think before it was almost just like, okay, you're, you're. You're a veteran player. Yeah, oh, yeah, this guy's got 300, 400 games.

Yeah, we'll sign him. You know, I think he scores a bunch of goals. Whereas now, I mean, you know, free agency every year we see after, you know, the first couple days, there's like that lull. And, you know, I know, like, Tanner Geno's deal raised a lot of eyebrows, but, you know, like, he has an identity, you know, like, he has, like, you know exactly what you're getting from him, you know, for 82 games a year. You know, obviously a guy like Mitch Marner, you know exactly what you're getting out of

them for those 82 regulations. Two very similar players. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But it's like for those guys and just the league in general, like there are a lot of times when you're looking at depth charts and you, you know, doing a pre-scout on team, like you're going through and you, that team for the most part has an identity, but also the individuals within it, which, which again is changed a lot by, by how important the offseason is.

And it doesn't matter if these guys coming in are 20 years old, like they're already got their, you know, routines in. They're, you know, basically living on a roller. all day and band work and all this stuff, which is pretty impressive to see. I feel like the accessibility has changed so much too from a prep perspective, right? Because you know, you're talking about looking at the highlight reels. There was once a time where especially if you're a team in the opposite conference, you're like, you're just turning it on every night and maybe seeing a couple highlights of

the stuff that worked and the goals, but not really getting the full report. And now in 2025, you're following Dim Philipovich on Twitter. You're seeing all the clips of. Gus Forsling makes tapes. Exactly. And that's why I want to have you on. I mean, obviously, you're a great dude. But I love the way you think about the game.

You're a fellow nerd. And I say that in the most loving way where you're messaging me on a random weeknight in February where you're like, oh, like, you see that Dylan Sandberg stick check that he had? And I'm like, did I see it, buddy? That's already safe for a future real. I'll be up next week. Yeah.

I'm curious Tom and I were kind of kicking our ideas of what we wanted to talk about with you. And one of them was I want you to build out a list of your, like the guys that you are most intrigued by in terms of like studying, either what they're doing, trying to pick up little tricks of the trade that you can apply to. your own game or you're just a fan of

watching their tape like the who are your favorite shutdown defenseman I think to watch or keep an eye on who do you have the most respect for at the junks your peers I mean my favorite D-man you know early on in my career and even before I started with like Shea Weber was a guy that I I mean I just want to be Shea Weber

this guy is just the man you know he impact the game in so many facets he's a fellow BC guy so I think that was pretty cool for me to look and see like geez like a guy that's that good and that impactful um it's from around here but guys is in this, like, still playing right now that I like to watch, you know, like Devon Taves, I think is just an elite elite guy. You know, I think Drew Doughty's a guy that I know obviously he's getting older now, but, you know,

he's a guy that you have on the ice when you're, you know, trying to defend a lead, 6'5, or also when you're, you know, 5 on 6 and trying to score and vice versa. So, you know, at the same time we all watch, are able to watch the, you know, the big guy, like the Kail McCars and the Quinn, huge. is in these guys, Romaniosis. But for me individually, like at Devon Taves, you know, I'm a big fan of, you know, a guy like Josh Manson. You know, I really, you know, I'm a big fan of his game.

I know Samberg's a guy, too, that I was able to play with for three years and see. Yeah, you're understudy. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what that. I mean, he's, uh, I don't know. I think you should be getting a portion of this upcoming payday. I keep telling him, I said, hey, you know what? Like, he hasn't signed yet. So maybe there's a chance for me to sneak in there and have a couple bucks from him.

You know, this, you know, this. here, Brett Pesci too. Like Pesh is a guy that, um, it's so funny. Again, we talked earlier about when you play with somebody and you could see how impactful they can be, um, you know, Pesch has got an unbelievable stick to the amount of times where guys would be, whether it's trying to chip it in on them or, you know, rim it to, you know, start a forecheck and he's knocking that down. I'm not just knocking it down, but like, you know, finding the next play, which is half

the battle. So, you know, yeah, I guess those guys, Devon Taves, Pesh. Yeah. Those guys, Manson. Yeah, I got, I can't do this conversation without dropping in Gus Fores. I know you joke. Yeah, I mean, like, Forzling Slaven, like, those guys are just like, like, everybody's. You're not, you're not trying to learn from them because you're like, they're freaks.

Yeah. I'm going to leave that to them. It's just so funny because like I asked Pesh about Slaven, like right when we came in. I was like, I was like, what does this guy eat? What does this guy do? Like, you know, what, like, what is he, like, how does he get to that level? And I know his Four Nations was kind of as coming out party because of people being able to see like, wow, you know, like, how did he get a stick on that? Or how did he, like, impact that, right?

and I just think those guys are, you know, everybody's learning from those guys. Maybe not everybody's watching, you know, Dylan Sandberg or, you know, Tavon Taves or Brett Pesci, which I think, you know, for defense, me like myself, we all should be for sure. Yeah, I feel like, to answer your question on what Slavin's doing on his off time, he's probably got like dolls of all the best forwards in the league. He's just like putting pins in them and just like, torturing them. You will not score. Yeah.

And you will not score. You know, yeah, he's just, even watching in playoffs, man, like, like his gaps, like, you know, like, just, well, his range is the entire ice surface. Yep. It's like, wherever the puck is, his stick will probably be around there. Yeah. And he's going to just either, like, disrupt the shot or completely take it away. That was the best moment from the final of the four nations was that three on two,

where Slavin got down and blocked the Seth Jarvis rush chance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Jarvis, obviously, is used to being on the ice with him. And you could just see it in his face. He was like, oh, this is what other people are dealing with. I knew that he was. that he would do that. The things, too, is I think, like, that system for Slaven is absolutely perfect, too.

Like, you never know, right? Like, how guys would be in other systems. Right. In different, you know, neutral zones or different D zones. And there's a lot of that that goes into, which I think, like, a team like Florida has, like, perfectly, okay, we need this, this and this guy, you know, for this role and for the plug in for that, like, whatever that might be. Like, who knows, Jeff Petrie might come in this year and just be up for the Norris.

You never know. like or uh i mean that's the best spot in the business the the oliver ecman larsen nachman nashmint memorial yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean that's that's that's it's great so yeah i i i've come a long a long way on that as well right like where i think when i first started in this industry you take everything at face value or in a vacuum from the perspective of like just look at this guy's production look at his metrics and just judge it based on that and then especially for the defense position i think like coming in terms with the impact that environment has not only from what your coach is asking you do i think you and i spoke about it earlier

where sometimes you know just watching it from the outside you could be critical of a decision in terms of all you went off the glass and out he made a safe play he's sagging back in terms of his rush coverage when in reality that's he's executing the game plan to a team that's exactly with the coach data and you go back and watch the video the next day and and you're flying under the radar and the coaches and calling you out for being over aggressive or making a decision he didn't want you to make and the impact that has on that not to mention you know playing in new jersey for example like I imagine your responsibilities going back and play the puck are much different than maybe somewhere else with less talented forwards where for you you go back you know Jack Hughes is going

to be coming down low. Generally the good play is get him the puck and let him cook and weave through the neutral zone as opposed to somewhere else where maybe they'd be like, all right, well, we actually need you to skate this one out and then what that's going to do to your numbers and how you look on tape. So I think that's a huge thing. And that's a lot of stuff too that, you know, I think there's that still always going to be a fine line of the analytics with like the eye test, right? And watching, you know, if you watch team five, ten times, you know, which is really a sample size at that point, you know, you see how they are, right? Like, are they a sitting back, you know, Gibouchet, one three one where they don't cross the blue line? Are they a team that's

all out for check? And of course, they're going to have great gaps in a Carolina where they throw the puck every and then, oh, Jesus, this guy's course he is out of the league, right? Out of this league. So there's a bunch of different things that come into it, you know, who your D partner is, who your linemates are, who you're playing against, where are you starting, Like there's so many different things that come into, to affect, you know, before you're judging players. And I think that's something over the last couple of years, you know, you talk about the game changing from 2012-13. That's changed a lot. Well, another thing we're seeing is just lower shot volume, right?

We're seeing teams possessed to defend, right? Do more of that grind your opponent down slowly over the course of three or four heavy shifts consecutively. Get the icing, you know, now they're cooked. So we're seeing a lot more of that. we're also seeing, I think, you know, partly, and I'm curious to get your thoughts on this as a D-Man, we're seeing forwards, I think, get a lot cageier, and teams get a lot smarter about sort of layered traffic and how they shoot through it and what they're sort of looking at in terms of fooling goldenders. With that, how has that impacted your sort of experience stationary attacking in the ozone?

Just because, I mean, we're not seeing slap shots anymore. Yeah, yeah. We're seeing a lot more placement, a lot more placement through, you know, based off of where your teammates are. I mean, how different is that we're at these days? Well, a lot of, you know, a lot of D-Men now, like, it's like, okay, if I can't box out this six foot five forward, it's like, okay, I'm blocking the shot, you know, like, I was a big thing of Vegas did a couple years ago was, you know, like they're fronting

everything. Fronting everything. And, you know, if you're able to get the right block, like maybe the right balance goes and you got three and two the other way. And that's part of it, too. if you ask any goaltender, like, they want shot volume. They want to feel the puck. They want to feel good. They especially early in a game, like, you know,

there's all like freebies where you're just throwing it from the wall or a D-Man wrist in it from the blue line. I mean, on an NHL goaltender, you're not scoring on those. And so I think that's something that, you know, we talked about the same percentage is going down. The average per se, well, you know, a lot of these goal scores aren't wasting shots. Like, yeah, you know, OV is still going to have eight, ten shots a night. But a lot of those are one-timers

or opportune chances to really actual score. and it's talked about a little bit in pre-scouts and hey especially on you know a shasturkin or a vasselowski or you know the higher end goalie is like you got to make him work for work for that and it's something for his defensemen too like boxouts are so huge um you know de men you see a lot of you know bigger d like that's our job like like box that guy out don't let the puck get to the net um you also see a lot of goals that are just going in option pads you know that are bouncing three four five times and find their pinballed in their way in. So there's a fine line on both where getting the box out or blocking the shot versus, you

know, when to pick and choose your shots towards. What's sort of next? Do you think about where are the games going or try to like, you know, do the old be ahead of the play thing in terms of what you're working on or thinking about in the offseason, like this summer? For sure. I think that's, again, part of yourself growing your own game to then in turn help the team. But for defensemen and for myself and my specific skill set, like breaking the puck out,

going back for it and hitting that middle as cleanly as possible, making those reads which are hard to do in the summer because, you know, you're not really getting hit in the summer and you're not really going full board. And it's not a lot of like five on five. Let's work on breakouts, guys. At the same time, too, ozone stuff. Like, like getting pucks through is such a crucial, a crucial thing. And, you know, watching guys like Zach Wrenski that, you know, have fantastic years and, you know, like the wrist shot and finding that lane. And it's, again, it doesn't matter if you're Brendan Dillon or your Kail McCarr,

like your job, your expectation when you get the puck in the Ozone is to be able to get that to the net. You know, if you're on the ice in an NHL hockey game and the best league in the world, not getting that blocked, you know, at least furthering the play, you know, in a positive manner, you know, making the right play in the ozone or D zone is, is, is, you know, is just, that's the expectation and as it should be. Well, in terms of that processing and kind of the snap judgments and decision making, it's interesting hearing you talk about that because in watching the playoffs,

something I kept noticing and coming back to was like when you'd watch Florida play, just how they'd work it up to the point. Eklad will go to D-D to Forsling. And I think you've become conditioned. And Forrestling certainly can just, you know, on Corka, a massive bomb from the point. But more often than not, it would be he like fake that he's going to, fired on that and then just work it back down and re-engage the cycle and all of a sudden they get it to kachuk below the net you try to get into the slot to bend it if that fails you essentially just do that all over again and that kind of ties into what you're saying about shot volume going down in general but i feel like the responsibilities for defensemen have increased so much as the game's gotten more nuanced as well right i feel like it's always been a difficult position i'm sure like it must have been even more physically demanding in the past if you're a defensive defenseman in terms of like all the just punishment you're going to have to go through on a day to day-to-day basis and every time you play.

Yeah. But in terms of the responsibilities, decision making, what you're being tasked to do, both with and without the puck, I feel like making all those decisions is more difficult than ever because there's so much more stuff

to account for now as everyone's trying to optimize their approach, right? It's much less cookie cutter and now it's much more like you've got four options ahead of you and it's going to be up to your processing speed to on the fly, make that real time kind of judgment on what to do. Well, there's exactly that is just reading the play like,

who's coming in on me? Is it Mitch Marner coming on me? Is it, you know, Sam Bennett coming in on me? When I get that puck now, like, maybe our pre-scout or how we would like to attack this is we want to go over on that. But maybe there's a guy standing there. And now it's not just like, okay, yeah, shut your brain off, go back. Yep, this is the play. We bump it over and we keep it going. It's like, well, there's a guy standing there. So now, okay, boom, like, you know, you're thinking through your head. Now I've got to turn up. Oh, now there's a guy there. Okay, what's option number C that you need to make? And like as we were saying earlier, like sometimes the right play is the high flip out,

the punt and kind of just get it out of your zone. But sometimes there's a lot more plays to be made. And again, in the best league in the world, like the expectation is, you know, you want to get that puck to Jack Hughes. You want to get that puck to Jasper Brat. Like that's my job. And, you know, I enjoy it.

I understand it. But it's definitely evolved a lot. I'm curious for like for the risk profile and kind of how this stuff's being weighed internally. if you're having a tape session after or you're going through or whatever is the focus still because I feel like before it must have been so much in terms of like risk prevention from like if you make a mistake that's going to be called out

and kind of harped on and you don't do that again you're going to get your hand slapped a little bit whereas now I do wonder especially with like this more modernized approach younger coach is coming in more of an offensive agenda how much of it is like not leaving stuff on the table as well right in terms of that decision making of like yeah sure this didn't result in a goal against,

but maybe we could have created something more. And then maybe if you make that mistake, not a mistake, but you make that judgment, you come off the ice all of a sudden now the next line and next D pair. Is that a bit of a disadvantage? Because all of a sudden now they're stuck in their own zone as opposed to the opposite where you get to kind of snowball

those three, four shifts in the O zone and really kind of grind on the opposition. Well, that's putting your, you know, the next D pair out in a good spot, putting your next forward line, like like setting your team up. And, you know, that is the ultimate thing. thing, right? You're playing with the team game. You want your team to win the hockey game. You want to put them in the best situation you can. So those are all the decisions that when I'm going back for a puck, like time of the game, is it the first shift of the game where we're trying to

kind of get our feet wet and get the momentum, like maybe that high risk play, you know, that saucer pass over a stick. You know, maybe I'm not making that play then, right? You know, are we up three nothing? It's like, yeah, okay, if it, something was to go. Let's go for four. Yeah, exactly. Like, maybe if they were to score, like, that's okay. You know, are we down a goal? Are we up a goal? just time and place and that's having a feel and experience comes into play on that, right? Like younger guys on your team, those are conversations you're having like, hey, maybe like next game when you have that last man back, that the whole dragon on the blue line is probably not the play.

And, you know, those things just come with just understanding, understanding again where you're at. Do the two extra games coming in after this season? Did those have your eye in terms of... I mean, the two extra regular season, to take away the three or four exhibition. Yeah. Like, I think that's a tradeoff we take all day long.

Right. Just strictly on the sense of, like, you know, when you're playing, whether it's a junior team in the first couple games of the preseason or, you know, a guy that's coming in just trying to make a name for himself and not injure people, but, you know, run around like a donkey. Sure. I think that's, like, taking that off and then actually getting the reps that you want to and the game situations that you want to is way more important.

And then you're throwing the fact of, you know, two regular season games that are meaningful towards your playoff seating, making the playout, all that stuff, I think is fine. I mean, I don't know, two games to a college guy coming out of, you know, University of Michigan or Wisconsin, maybe he's going to be a little bit more told than a guy that's coming out of junior that's been in the league for a little bit. I wanted to ask you, because you were a BCHL guy who did, WHL guy, excuse me. But I'm curious to get just your thoughts on, you know, so sorry, you were an undrafted guy, though. Yes, right.

I don't like drafts. I don't like drafts. I don't like NHL drafts, W.HL drafts. He's more of a free market guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you offering? You know, like, what's your depth shirt? Like, maybe then we'll talk.

They'll talk, yeah. I mean, I appreciate that. I think draft is only what it means, right, on the day of. Yeah. In terms of the changes that we're seeing, though, with some of those college guys getting paid big money. Yeah. In terms of WHL guys being able to go and get that college experience,

the weekend warrior experience and world-class gym facilities. I mean, pretty good life for those college players. What are your thoughts on that as a guy who didn't take the traditional path necessarily to the NFL? Yeah, well, I was trying to get, I don't know, I saw Kent Johnson this morning, I was trying to get out of him. Like, how much is that Caden Lynch from getting to go to Michigan State? Oh, man. Did Michigan not match that?

Like, you guys are really going to let him go to rival? When I heard that McKenna, when I heard that McKenna was getting like a couple hundred thousand, right? Was that what the room was? I think he's making, like, the same amount as Samiskevich is going to make on the Panthers this year. Yeah, it's like 700K. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, you know, you know,

you wonder what the ripple down effect is. And I mean, obviously this McKenna really changes the game. You know, he's probably going to go top three, five, whatever it is. Top one. Top one. Hey, the Western League guy, I hope he goes one. Like, that's just good for the good for the league. It's a tantal answer.

Like, I really think that it's, it changes everything, right? Because that was the big thing. If I play one WHOHL game, like I can't do the BCHL in college. And now it's almost like I think I saw a couple of the kids on, I think, Tri-City that were either first-round picks are going to be high-drafted, that are gone. And like that changes your whole, you know, WHL team, right? Like you have a first ballot guy.

I remember when I think it was Taves, Johnny Taves, went first overall to try cities and didn't end up going. You ended up going north, North Dakota. Like that's like an organizational changer, right? Because now you're talking about players that you wanted to bring in that probably aren't going to come anymore because they don't have a chance to play with whoever. Or as you said, the facilities at some of these universities are just like insanity.

Like like way better than, you know, NHL American League setup. So better than NFL. No, NFL. No, I know. Like, I've heard some of these and, you know, talking to some of the guys that have gone to the North Dakota's and, you know, gone to these, these other schools, you know, I've heard Michigan States is like next level.

Yeah. I remember that. It's just, it's crazy. So I think those things and then on top of that you're going to get paid. Like, I mean, I was getting paid wherever it was like $180 every two weeks. It was like big money ball in. Yeah, exactly. Not too many, though.

No, well, Seattle, we weren't, we didn't have any 21-year-olds. Yeah, nice. in Seattle of the Western League. But it changes everything. It's obviously, we'll be interesting to see maybe when we look back five, 10 years from when this just started happening. But, you know, you're talking about games.

Like in college, I still think they're playing around 40 to 50 games, right? Like juniors are still 60 to 70, which is closer to an NHL schedule, the travel, getting on a bus from Seattle to Brandon. Like, you can't emulate that flying on, you know, Michigan PJ, you know, across to. So it's different. Wolverines air? Yeah, yeah, seriously. Yeah, but who knows.

All right, guys, well, we got to wrap it up. This was a blast. You know what? I think the audition with Tom here is the third seat. Yeah. Pass the test. I think we're going to have to do this again next summer. We'll see.

We'll still approve himself over the next year or so, but we'll temporarily. I'll do the dirty work. I'll go to the corner. You'll be the grinder. All right. Brennan, this was awesome, man. Thank you so much for coming on. It was a blast.

Hopefully the feedback is as good this year, and we can do this again. Have a great season coming up and enjoy the rest of the summer. Thank you to everyone for listening. for listening to us. Drance and I will be back tomorrow with another fun episode planned. We've done an agent. We've done a player.

We'll see what... Who's next? We have next. That's a very exciting tease there for those that are still listening. Give us five-star reviews wherever you listen to the show. And thank you for listening

to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network.