The Hockey PDOcast - Summer Series Part 5 With Bill Armstrong

Episode Date: July 22, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance and Bill Armstrong to talk about Year 1 in Utah, how the JJ Peterka trade came together this offseason, and how the organization continues to take steps towards building off of last season. Then we close out the show by reflecting on our Summer Series, some of our favourite highlights from the interviews, and what's next for the show. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Dmitra Filipovich and joining me as always, my good buddy, Thomas Trance. Tom, what's going on? Doing well, excited for this one. This is, you know, for listeners who've been rolling their eyes every time we bring up a certain young up-and-coming team. They'll be prepared for this on-brand interview that we're going to do to close out our summer series. Yes, this is our fifth and final part of the summer series. I don't want to add extra pressure to both us and the guest because we're coming off an episode last week

where we had Rick Talked it on and completely unsolicited at the end he gave us the best testimonial that was ever gone and so we're riding high right now that rocked but we're gonna try to top it today and some would argue that as you mentioned we probably spent

no on no team did we spend more time this season than the Utah Hockey Club even sometimes when they were struggling early in the year when it wasn't necessarily warranted considering we take a view of the whole league but we were so enamored with watching them play and what they were building.

And so we had to stay on brand. It's our last show of the year. And so we're going to end it in style. We've got the man responsible for putting the team together that can talk about it at great length and depth. Bill Armstrong, Bill, what's going on, man? Oh, thank you for having me, guys. This is awesome, you know, so this is making my summer.

It doesn't get any better than this to talk about. We're right in the grind of summer. And there's nothing better than to sit down and talk more hockey right now. What would everybody want in the world? They want to talk about hockey. And the number one team, an up-becoming team in the National Hockey League, the mammoths. So here we are. There you go.

So you guys are coming off of year one in Utah after the relocation. The team missed the playoffs by a couple points. But as we were documenting all year, made a really big leap on the ice and under the hood by essentially anemetric. Thomas and I would look at and talk about post-4 nations. You guys finished 12th in point percentage at 5-1-5 for the year. You were top 10 across the board and everything we look at as performance indicators. The power play for all the fire. power it had really came together in that stretch down the season. I think it was clocking

in at like fourth in terms of goals per hour during that time. How much of the way the team kind of came together and meshed once everyone got healthy on the blue line and really got to play together? How much churning out those results in particular that influenced the motivation to go out this off season and take some real swings in trying to keep adding to this young nucleus with the J.J. Patyrka trade with the Nate Schmidt and Brandon Tann of signings to kind of complement that young core already in place? Yeah, it was a good year last year. It took our team a little bit of time just to kind of feel comfortable playing in Utah.

There was so much energy when we came in here. I think it was frightening for our guys in some regard with our team. Like, you know, sold out rank, you know, I think we're used to playing in front of 4,500 and in Arizona. So, you know, our fans were passionate, you know, and I think we over-tried. We were over-emotional. And we just had a hard time finding our friends. rhythm at the start. And once we did, we were fine. But we got to the four nations, we got

healthy. And, you know, we were just devastated by injuries on the backside. So it made it really tough to kind of get going. But once we did, and the guys kind of bought into it, you know, we added the likes of Mata and Dersie came back and, you know, Marino came back into our lineup. It was huge for us. And you could see the team kind of take shape and find some rhythm in the game. And, you know, some of our young guys were taking steps too. So I love the fact that when we got done at the end of the year, listen, it wasn't exactly the way we wanted it. We would have liked to get in.

There's some things that are out of your control. St. Louis was on a torrid pace. They caused a lot of depression for us because we went 6, 3, and 1, and they went, you know, 10 and 0 in that space. But it was good for our group. We played a lot of pressure moments down the stretch. We were under the gun. the whole time. I loved where we were at and how we responded to it. So it was it was a good season

for us. Now as you talk about we've we've come in taking a swing here on the likes of JJ Peturka added Tannab and schmidden into the mix and and now our guys have gone home and you know got a year older. So it's an exciting time for for us and I think our guys that the last point is I think our guys like to play together. They're really excited about coming back and they're coming back into a new facility, you know, practice facility at state of the art. It'll be the best practice facility in the National Hockey League that Ryan Smith has built us along with pumping in a boatload of money to redo the bottom bowl in the first stage of that. So it's really exciting.

We love the building. It's incredibly loud. I think it is one of the loudest buildings in the National Hockey League. So it's really exciting for our players to come back and add a few new pieces. Bill, it's a dangerous stage sometimes for the hockey team that last year anyway, right, seemed to level up and then just a ton of one goal games that you end up on the wrong side of, right? You said you played a lot of pressure moments. Yeah, every game was close, right?

It was always neck and neck. And when you guys lost, it tended to be by the narrowest of margins. And in sort of in seeking to get over the hump, bringing in the vets that know how to win, that stage of your development, it looked to me like that's where you were at. But I thought it was an interesting wrinkle there where both the vets who've been around fit with some of the warp speed way that your team plays. So that skating skill in combination with sort of their veteran experience, how conscious was that effort to try and bring in players that fit how you play in addition to having some

of that, you know, weight in the league that you clearly felt your team needed? Yeah, well, I think the weight you're talking about is we've, we've added 10 cups into that room. There's 10 Stanley cups into that room, and that's a huge thing for this group. And you're also talking about a line where you've got the Turk at age 23, Cooley at 21, and Gunther at 22, and they've all were over 60 points last year. So, you know, it's, and, you know, we've got some other youth coming with the, two big Russian kids, you know, Daniel Bood and Dmitri Simashev, they won the KHL championship. They're massive kids and they've got skills.

So there's a whole bunch of goodness coming in. The scary point is, like what you talk about a little bit, is that you still got to get in, you know, and that group's pushing. We don't want any setbacks. We want to continue to push forward with our team and kind of mesh. I love the fact that we added TANF and Buterka, who can fly. But also we brought back Carcone. one of the best press conferences ever at the end of the year.

I think the boys are going to play that when he reenters the dressing room for the first time. And that's what you love about Michael. He's just a feisty kid. And he made his way all the way from Oswald all the way into the NHL and the roundabout way. But it's his feistyness. So I love what we've done. And, you know, in the way that we play, we've added some more speed. We're fast before.

I think we're going to be even faster now. And we've got some good pedigree of winning championship. As soon as the off-season started, it became clear that you guys were going to be pretty aggressive going out and adding some firepower, right? To add to the top six to Keller and Kooley and Gunther and guys who kind of fit in with the way they play and what they were already producing down the stretch. I'm curious about the route in the process that you guys took in getting there and reaching the final point in kind of identifying and landing, Petrka as the guy to check those boxes because there were a lot of viable options available in the trade market. We spoke about her a bunch on the podcast here. obviously you guys had a lot of pieces, both in terms of roster players, but also draft capital and

cap space to accommodate whatever you chose to do. How do you settle on Petrka being the one? Because obviously the age, I think, is a selling point in terms of being 23 and fitting in with that timeline. And then obviously his ability off the rush and being able to really just devastate opponents with what those guys, the foundation you've already built. But what kind of separated him from some of the other available options and what made you guys and pushed you guys in that direction ultimately. Well, there's an office in our building that I occupy, and it is a painful process for our entire staff as we beat the living snod out of that same question that you just ask,

where are we moving, what's available, and we go over that every single day from basically eight in the morning till seven o'clock at night when we leave the office, hey, this guy's available, it's going to be a free agent, this is the money he's going to be put in. Hey, put him with this guy. hey, let's add this guy. Can we trade for that guy? And we've done that for a number of years where we just constantly do that every day

for about almost a three-month span to get added and understand where we want to. And most times we come back to putting a talent, putting it like for this year, we had to add in a top six player that could score. And we went through the process of looking the free agents and going through down that route and then looking at what we could add in trade.

and J.J. Peturka was someone that we were able to kind of pull that trade off. It worked for Buffalo and it worked for us. And we had to give up two really good kids that we love. But we were able to add someone that's a sniper with speed on the top two lines, which we didn't have at this point. So it was a painful process to go through. It looks probably pretty smooth on your end. But for us, we just beat it up until we find the one and find the fit.

And that's the biggest thing for us. we haven't got into a situation where we've paid somebody a lot of money that's 37 years old or 32 years old on a bad deal. We've done short-term deals or three-year deals to allow our team to kind of grow. Because you have to remember one thing is, you know, you talk about the age of Butirk, at Gunther and Kooley, when you look at the Florida Panthers and you look at Reinhardt and you look at, you know, Verhege and you look at Kachuk, those guys are all somewhere between 27 to 29 years old. We can't make our guys any older.

We can groom them around them and put good pieces around them, but there's an aging process that you have to go through to bring out the peak of the team. And we're not at that point right now. We're going to get there one day. So we've tried to put guys that are always in that same age frame, you know, around them to help grow them and not get too ahead of ourselves. And that's a big thing for us.

We've had a game plan since I came in and we've stuck to that game plan. And so, but it is a long journey as process. And I think our staff probably needs a good vacation after I'm done with them on that process. Bill, that the Turca trade watching from the outside felt like a canary in the coal line deal in terms of opening our eyes to what we've started referring to as the talent crunch, right? We used to have a cap crunch and now we have a wash cap space. And it seems there aren't enough players to go around that are worth spending that cap space on. in terms of how teams are thinking about this. So all of a sudden,

we see this deal where there's two, you know, NHL ready pieces, young guys, good players, unique profiles, but we're used to seeing that trade include futures, draft picks,

buckets of different stuff. And that trade looked and felt differently. Can you walk us through how that comes about or how that was experienced by someone in the midst of those trade talks? Yeah, I mean, trades take a while. There's a bit of a trade where as a GM, it has to settle within you. And sometimes that takes a week. Sometimes it takes a month. Sometimes it takes three months.

In the case of when we traded OEL to Vancouver, it took a full year to set in and realize, hey, our ask was too much. Let's go back at it and do it a different way. So it takes some time, it takes time to settle in. And the Buffalo one is just going back and forth and figuring out the right pieces. And the pieces that we were with, willing to give up, you know. We gave up two really good players. Josh Donne is a heck of a player. He's a smart hockey player.

And Castle Rang, too, Michael Kessler, a great player, a great team player and continue to improve since we've had them. So those two hurt, but what we had to do was we had to get somebody that could play in the top six that could snipe and add some speed. JJ can do that. He's somebody that can come in and really help our team take the next step. So that's going to be a huge piece for us. But trade talks, they take a while for GMs to kind of get comfortable with the pieces being exchanged.

And did it turn out to be somewhat differently than you would, did it turn out to be somewhat different than you would have planned for given you have a bunch of draft capital too, right? So you have some of the chips that perhaps you would have anticipated spending in a previous environment, right? So you had the flexibility to go either way. But did it surprise you the way that the market unfolded over the course of the summer in terms of the value that young contributors had relative to some of what we'd seen over the past five years? Yeah, I mean, a lot of times it's, you know, it depends what the other side's going through, right? Do they need players back? Do they want to be good next year?

Are they over the cap? You know, we've done, you know, obviously the deal to get surrogate where we moved J.J. Moser and Conorkeek, two really good plays. and a pick for Sergey, which, you know, we needed him at the time, and they needed young players at the time, two really good young players. So we seem to, you know, we kind of study teams that have won cups, you know, and if you look at Tampa Bay, you know, their whole defense was minus headman was built through trades. And so we figured we can kind of do the same thing in different ways and advance our growth

of our team with good players by giving up some young things. players. And we were able to do that in this particular case. You know, sometimes we have a lot of draft capital and some good young players coming. And, you know, you always experiment about that. But it depends what the team needs. You know, Buffalo wants to get better. They want to take that step. They needed players that could play right away.

And we had that. And because we also have some good young players coming in on defense, we were able to move Michael Cussering, you know, with having, you know, Lamarou and Simawe and, and Sima coming in two big boys that can play, you know, they're coming into the lineup in the next little bit. So we're able to kind of move along Michael and use him as a chip to,

to kind of enhance what we needed up front. You just made that trade early in draft week, I believe, right? It was like a Wednesday night, maybe a couple days ahead of the draft. And I think then in the aftermath of that, leading up to the draft on Friday, there was a lot of reporting and speculation about what you guys might do sitting in that fourth overall slot.

You obviously wound up. making the pick, keeping it, taking to NYU and Thomas and I are both big fans of his and that two-way profile laying down the middle, how that's going to fit for you guys moving forward, it opens so many doors. But I'm curious in terms of the consideration or maybe the pull that was there in terms of potentially using that to make another big swing and facilitate another trade to improve your roster right now versus the idea that I think you guys entered the lottery with like the 14th best odds. You wound up winning it, of course, and moving up before you're looking ahead thinking, all right, if things go.

according to plan, this is hopefully the last time we're picking this high on the draft for the next decade. This is our last chance to grab a premium piece like that and then we'll move on from that and keeping it and making that pick as opposed to entertaining other ideas to either trade down or make another swing to acquire a guy in that 23 to 27 window that could play for you from day one. Yeah. And this is this kind of bleeds into a little bit what you talked about. Well, how do you get to that point of, you know, taking all the options in and and looking at them to build your team. And so you think about this one, this is a crazy one where we, we go in and win the lottery and go and go to four. You know, you're like, wow, that's so, so now you've got to

explore, hey, can you move up, can you move down? Can you add a piece in the top six? And you're going through that whole process. And then your, your, your amateur staff has described me to, hey, I think this is what we're going to get, whether they get at this guy or this guy, you know, and, and you've got to go through this big, long, you know, process of, of exploring. As a GM, you have to do that. You have to look at every single option. Can you move up? Can you move down? Can you grab picks? What's available? What's a talent range? You know, when you're picking at four and how long does it stretch behind you? So you really have to look at all these different pockets and different avenues to add players. At the end of the day, we came back to the, um, Caleb Dinoje,

who we, who we just loved. Um, one of our scouts out there, Kevin Thacker, um, he, um, he, He had loved this kid since the start of time, and it's all he talked about, and the day that we had a chance to pick him, you know, he was on him. And you could see that. And he had done a great job. I call this the seasons of scouting where you literally have to kind of see the kid all the way from, you know, the start of summer hockey all the way through to the end of the year. And, you know, we'd known this kid, you know, and he, he, he's.

he'd played so well. I mean, we got so excited about thinking that we're going to add a top-end centerment to our lineup. This is a huge piece for us. So, again, it's one of those things where you've got to explore everything, but, you know, you settle on something, and we loved where we were able to pick at four and get a top-end two-line player. You were talking in the, when we were talking about the Peturka deal,

you were talking about Kesselring and the, dynamic of having Simashev and Lamarou coming. You now have Denouye picked in the fourth overall, but you also extended McBain, right? And then you've got Barrett Hayden and Logan Cooley, both potentially centers. I know Cooley played a lot of wing for you last year, and both are extension eligible.

How do you sort of think about that premium position from the perspective of like managing the long haul, right? And sort of adding value in terms of, for example, the McBain extension, does that make him a more desirable trade chip, for example, versus, you know, if you'd done a bridge deal

and you'd be looking at extending a six foot four center in a $15 million cap environment two years down the line. How do you sort of think about that, like progression? You know, you can come up with a perfect plan and, you know, it all sudden switches very quickly in the NHL.

So one of, like, so we have, you know, obviously the way that we drop are, you know, in a perfect world, you know, it's, you know, you've, we've drafted well down the middle, so now you're going to end up with Denouye and, you know, Hayden and Cooley and McBain and Bodouin at some point coming in. And, you know, I've always felt like you win through the middle of the ice, you know.

In St. Louis, we had to trade for some of those pieces, you know, where we traded, you know, for Shannon O'Reilly and signed Bozac as a free agent, it brought in Robert Thomas. That was a game changer. When we started to, you know, add down the middle, I think it changed our complete team. And I think for us, we have to be patient in this process. You know, it takes a long time to bring along a number one, number two lion center. And, you know, we've got now, we've got some good pieces down the middle of the ice.

That's going to help us. Like I said, you win through the middle. You know, when you're building through the middle, it's one of the most important aspects you can add into your team. So I think that's going to be one of our strengths in the future of building through the middle of the ice. I want to ask you about Cooley because he's coming off a year or two where he jumps up to 25 goals, 65 points and 75 games as a 20-year-old. I thought in particular he made some massive strides this season off the puck in terms of his pursuit, his tracking, winning battles, all that stuff to go along with all the points and the added usage playing with Keller much more often this year. Last year you were in a similar spot around this time with Dylan Gunther.

And I think it progressed until September and you wound up coming to terms on an eight-year extension for a second deal. And he has yet to play a single game under that contract. It starts this coming season. And he's already emerged as one of the best values in the league at that 7.14 number or whatever you guys got him at. Not to mention it spans the entirety of his 20s. I'm curious about how that's kind of going now with Cooley with him being eligible for extension entering the final year of his ELC. Tom and I have spoken a lot about this change. changing dynamic with the next CBA kicking in next September, how that's going to limit the

ability to go eight years on some of these deals, what that's going to do in terms of forcing the issue or potentially making stuff happen. And the opportunity cost, of course, with RFA's, right, in terms of buying those extra years, locking in that number as the cap continues to go up. What are those conversations looking like in terms of the importance of getting that done, in particular at max term, to lock that type of a core player in and then move on from that and build out the rest of the team. Yeah, I mean, he's a big piece for obviously, you know,

if you ever watch, go back and watch the draft when I announce his name, you know, how excited we were that we got him. Oh, my God. You know, we were just from the moment, you know, Logan came in into our organization. We were better. He's, you know, I ended up talking to him yesterday, and he's just got a youthfulness about him that he's just so excited about the season. You can just see him like, you know, jumping at the,

the bit. He's on the ice every day. All he does is get better. He's a huge part of our organization. So for us, if we were able to get in there and somehow get a long-term deal done, it would be great for this organization. I don't know if that will happen. You know, it's up to the agency and obviously Logan's decision to sign. You know, we'll see how that progresses as we move forth this summer. You know, I think all agents were, you know, a little bit nervous with the cap growth and where it'll get to. And, you know, in that business, they don't, they don't ever want to look bad in the sense for their clients.

They, and, you know, on our side, we try to create fair deals. That moves through the cap growth, allowing, you know, you know, to be a great deal for not only the club, but also for the player that will help us move forward. And hopefully that, that's achievable. We'll see as we progress through the summer, but he would be a huge ad for us. He's a big part of our franchise.

Just a, I know we've had a, taken up 22 minutes of your time, so we really appreciate it. But I want to throw, I want to throw one more at you. There's a space that exists in determining hockey outcomes that the public just never gets to hear about. We very rarely talk about. And frankly, to some extent, general managers are paid to avoid us having to us talking about it. And that's the impact and the interaction between ownership, right, and hockey operations leadership in creating winning outcomes. And you can see it in, you know, for example, the structure of contract. right, the front-loaded structure of contracts and signing bonus laden contracts. And obviously, you've flipped from one extreme to the other in moving your over-year

from the way that you were doing business in Arizona versus the way it appears you're trying to do business now. So I'm curious whether or not you'll help sort of illuminate for our listeners how big an impact ownership has on decisions that managers make. and the outcomes of the hockey teams on the ice? Well, I just first say that you're never going to win a championship in pro sports without a good owner. It's impossible. It's just, it's not going to happen.

In today's day and age, you know, the players want to feel and kind of understand the owner and have a good vibe. We were very fortunate. We went and came into the best situation, humanly possible, and got Ryan Smith as an owner. And, you know, the way that I've always conducted is trying to be, we have, you know, one of the, I guess, things that are the company and SECG preaches and I'm a huge believer is transparency. Like, there's no stone unturned. Everything is completely transparent, you know, with the ownership. And you try to describe, you know, everything from signings of your employees and understanding the structures of your organization to, you know, also the players that are coming in. And so it's really about transparency when you're dealing with your ownership and trying to, you know, describe everything and set, you know, really, you know, good, you know, I guess, you know,

you want to set real realistic expectations of where your team's moving. And I think that's something that we've, we've done rather well as of, you know, been the GM with the staff beside me is, you know, setting those expectations and being accurate on where your team's getting to and, you know, and what's the next step after that. So we try to really provide transparency in that process. This is the last thing I've got of your bill, and then we'll let you go. You guys, as we talked about at a Petrka,

this summer, you add Schmidt, you add 10, have you added Vanichick as well as another insurance option. And that you're still sitting at about 6.7 or so million in Calf space. You're obviously still got the six draft picks in the first three rounds in the 2026 draft in your back pocket. I'm fascinated by the. is from a team-building perspective, because I think we're seeing it more now

with that talent crunch Tom referenced with the cap going up and just that being more available in abundance. I think we've been accustomed to seeing good teams enter the season right up against the cap with very limited resources to add in season, right? And that's what's facilitated a lot of these three-team trades, getting the double retention and all that stuff

in terms of teams, just try to buy and create their teams, all of a sudden now, assuming things are good according to script then it's never necessarily that need in the NHO. But if you guys get out to a hot start, you're sitting somewhere in the top of the central, all of a sudden there's many more avenues, I think, for you to realistically explore to keep adding to the team if it makes sense

and to get better and ensure that people like Thomas and I remain fixated on what you're doing and keep covering your progression. I'm curious about sort of, I guess, managing that, right? Because you certainly want to keep improving from what you did last year and showing signs of growth

and getting better and getting into the playoffs and everything that comes from that, but doing so in kind of a methodical manner and not getting ahead of your skis necessarily and remaining patient in doing so. Yeah, it's a great kind of question that you've asked because it really starts out with a good start from the club.

You know, confidence comes from a source. Our club, you know, obviously has to move into that next step and be a consistent club. We've had periods where over the last two years or three years, we've had, you know, losing streaks that stop you kind of from obtaining, you know, we had one really long one a couple years ago. Last year we had like a five game. Or if you look at the top 10 teams, it's very rare that they go through that or they

rattle off 15 wins after that. So it's really important for our club to find consistency and get off to a good start and kind of go through the season that way. That enables us to do a lot of things. You know, one of the great things about our scouting, our amateur staff, they've and a great job of drafting well. Danoye, again, Lamru, Booth, Simashev, Harab, Barab, Bo, Duane.

Those are all top-end prospects that we have inside our organization. They haven't even played really inside our organization and have impact yet. So we've got a lot of options to move into our team. There's a lot of growth that's coming from our team to take that final step.

You know, for us, we want to push the, you know, push the envelope this year, see how good we can be. You know, you talk to the players, And you're like, well, we like to get this amount of points. All our players come back and say, let's not set. You know, it's unlimited for us. Let's see how good we can be. We're going to push here.

So I think the one thing about, you know, you talk to all our guys in the summer, they're super excited about coming back. There's a good energy in Utah where they want to come back and push to see how good they can be. And the likes of Logan Cooley and the Pertrkas and the Curgens and the Sergachevs and the Vegamalkas, they're going to push. You know, they're pretty driven human beings. So it's an exciting time to be in Utah. with the facilities coming in like I talked about before,

and you lead the prospects we've got that are coming. There's some exciting times for our franchise. Perfect. Bill, thank you so much for joining us. This was a blast. We had to have you on as the number one Utah Mammoth podcast and show. So this was a long time coming. Hopefully we'll be able to catch back up with you once the season gets going.

Enjoy your summer. We're going to let Bill Armstrong go here when we come back. from break. Thomas and I are going to wrap up things on our summer series. You're listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network. All right. We're back here on the Hockey P.D.O.cast. We've let Bill Armstrong go during

the break. That was awesome. I think a perfect conclusion to our summer series. Tom, we did a, we've got about 20 minutes here left to really put a bow on this season. I know we already did kind of our season outro a couple weeks ago now. And so I don't want to

necessarily reiterate all of it. But I think This is a good opportunity for us to reflect a little bit, right? Because we just had these five amazing interviews, all different perspectives in terms of their craft and how they approach it, some really cool insights along the way. I thought it would be fun for us to not necessarily recap it because I hope everyone just goes and listens to each one individually. But maybe some of our favorite or I guess most actionable takeaways from them, stuff we learn, maybe stuff we thought was interesting that they wanted to talk about. Maybe some fun anecdotes along the way as well because I think it was such a, you know, part of the, the, the, the appeal for me here and doing this was just getting the hang out here in studio with you here in July. And I wish people could see it because we recorded obviously the Brenndella one.

People can watch that on YouTube. But for those that haven't seen it, like we're just sitting here in studio, I just feel like a kid in the candy shop during these interviews, electrified the entire time, just trying to get into this with all these guys. And we're generally pretty reluctant, I think, to do these types of interviews because I think you can find GMs or coaches or players talking on other programs. And especially in season, I feel like the breadth of what's covered is generally pretty, pretty bare in terms of it's a lot of clichés, a lot of kind of towing the company line, what you'd expect. And maybe the benefit is that we caught these guys in mid-July. Everyone's got their guard down a little bit. Maybe, you know, to get ourselves credit, we had some good questions along the way. I thought Rook Tocket in particular, he texted me after our show. And he's like, those are some really good questions. Like, he really liked the way we were stimulating his brain during that conversation. But it was really fun to kind of break down that barrier. and make these guys accessible from like a transparency, candor perspective, hearing some of their insights along the way

and how willing they were to share some of the secrets of the trade. I thought that was probably the most fun part of it for me. I think what was cool across the five shows we've been able to do with interviews is the way that, and this is going to sound cliche in and of itself, but it's true. Like getting an opportunity or a window into just how much, these various people we've spoken with

and in different roles love thinking about the game. It's just, you know, Dylan, in Dylan's case, just getting a chance to hear a guy that absolutely loves the game and can play it at that high a level,

talk about it, period. It's just, you know, so much fun. And he's clearly, a student of the game, clearly pulls it apart. It is very thoughtful about how he approaches it. And I think that, shows through. That's that's passion right there. And so I hope that we were able to provide a window into that, you know, the, the way that Todd Diamond's just quickly able to reel off various, you know, things that matter, right? Things that matter in terms of managing a player's mental state, right? A deal that you'll be happy with, right? The fact that that's at the fundamental core of what he's doing, right, is providing a service to a player. You want them to feel fairly paid. You want them to feel settled. You want them to be happy.

right and that's really the basis it's not theories about profit maximization right it's it's are you happy um the way that talk it was just sort of um the way that talk it you know very clearly got excited as that conversation went along just to be back off of his summer vacation thinking about various things that matter on the ice i thought yeah i heard you i heard you flew in from greece specifically just to do our show and actually he's headed back now to enjoy the rest of his vacation yeah yeah yeah now he added back to Mekanos. No, I thought that was a really cool window into just how much, like just how hard working these guys are, how much they care, how much they love the game, just like we all do.

Yeah, I knew it would be a fun concept. That's why we did it. But I kind of entered it being still a little bit hesitant in terms of how it would shake out. And I'm just blown away by what we were able to get out of it, how great the guests were, how awesome. We might have to do a little bit more. I mean, that's all I want to do now. Like, we're going to have to, we're going to have to force ourselves to sit out in the sun a little bit. and take some time for ourselves.

We're going to get back in mid to late September, but now this is all I want to do. Three weeks from now, we're going to just drop an episode now. But you can't say like we're going to take time off now. People aren't going to believe us. No, we will, I assure you. I don't want people refreshing the feed expecting new episodes.

We will take some time off. So in that sense, it is bittersweet to be done. I'm already jonesing for more. But yeah, I thought it was really cool. The highlights you mentioned, I think we're right. I mean, I'm kind of going through it here and trying to wrap my head around it. Todd Diamond kicking us off was

was so great because he provided a level of insight from someone who actually negotiated William Eklund's three bridge deal in terms of those expectations and the incentives and the competing factors and how cool it was to hear that, obviously the interactions that he had with Don Waddell negotiating Ivan Provorov's deal and having to educate him along the way was a nice touch.

Him bringing up the fact that St. Louis and every hands-out signing bonuses, I know you mentioned that in the conference conversation with Bill here today, I didn't even really realize that at the extent of it. And then I went and pulled up their page to the point where I was using, and I got to shout this out, I was using cap wages because I like how you could just with one click, see the signing bonus structure. And then I got at our pal at Puckpedia.

And he's like, we're doing that now here too, because the people want to see it. So you can go on Puckpedia now and check out signing bonus structures at one click away and seeing all that. And then obviously having the inside track on as Barkoff as his agent and kind of how the sausage is made for the Panthers in terms of the. way they built this up utilizing all the perks they have available to them when i think dovetailing nicely with bill armstrong's answer on the importance of ownership right the you can't win a a championship without a good owner right i think there's a sort of a through line right between some of what todd was discussing

in that uh that i think is worth like chewing on and unpacking uh you know we see it all over sports it's not just hockey you know look at the nfl and and the various things that the eagles do to spend well above their cap resources because they're the best at managing it, but also because they're willing to pay up front. They're willing to pay early. They're willing to pay in bulk. They're willing to structure things that are that are favorable so that players do business with them in a way that ultimately benefits them, but that costs money to do. And there's a ton of mum and pop NFL teams that can't afford to, you know, play in that sandbox. This disparity, right? The impact of of cash resources is probably going to grow in the NHL,

even though the league's sort of changing up some of what they're doing in terms of revenue sharing in this new CBA to try and mitigate the impact of cap growth. This is going to be a prominent feature determining outcomes on the ice over the next four or five years. Well, within our conversation with Kyle Dubus last week as well, I think he even noted that where we were talking about the cap going up and how it influenced the market. Yeah. And I think he even made a point of note. how he's not skeptical, but he's going to be keeping an eye on terms of how teams are actually spending

because he's at least dubious that everyone is going to be spending their allotted money and how that's going to impact some of the transactions we see. You mentioned Brendan Dillon and just what a nice guy he is. I think his curiosity for the game really shown through, not to mention how well-spoken he was, and he does it all in the frame of just like a total unit. So he just walked in here and you're just like, all right, we'll see how this goes. I know I had him in last year as well, so I was pretty aware that it was going to be a fun one, but just hearing him kind of break down in detail some of the tactics and system stuff in terms

of going back and playing a puck and what's available to you. And all right, well, there's a third guy high. This is how that changes your perception of it and all that stuff. I thought that was incredible, not to mention him at this stage of his career as more of a traditional defensive defenseman trying to fit in with this modern devil's team and how he kind of plays a role in that. I thought that was really fun. And then Rick Tocke it, you're obviously aware of this because you've had a lot of in-person

dealings with him over the past two and a half years or so in covering the Canucks. But I think people that aren't necessarily aware of there are really kind of tracking it, have hardly from the outside. Think of him as, I mean, I was a former player, this kind of gruff, old school guy. And then him coming on and just being as big of a nerd as you and I are about this stuff. And just like how excited he was to break it all down. I also thought it was really notable. like we had that conversation with him about maybe where things went wrong in Vancouver,

especially at the start of last year in terms of them trying to change up the system and their approach and some of the shortcomings there. And I thought how Frank he was in terms of stuff that he'd like to do differently and how that relates to what he's going to try to do with Philly was really cool to hear as well. And something you don't often hear, you don't often hear a coach, especially in the spot he's in, be that openly reflective, I guess, about it, right? Because you don't necessarily want to admit that you had to. something to do with what went wrong, you're just kind of trying to turn the page and look ahead and a lot of coaches just kind of do the same stuff over and over again, regardless of their

destination. And so hearing him talk about it that way, I think was really interesting. Yeah, I think the, there's a, there's again a symmetry between that, right, that answer and his sort of explanation of potentially being wrong in coaching up players, right? That a player shouldn't it be this way? Actually, you're right. And he used the word vulnerable, right? The idea that you need to go in and be willing to figure out and be problem solving with, you know, the best of the best players. You need to be going in and showing them that you're working hard to give them whatever edge you can find, right?

In terms of helping them win, helping them succeed. And that really there's a sort of honesty or a vulnerability at the core of that as opposed to, you know, this sort of hard driving arrogance that I think we use. used to associate head coaches with. I think there's a generational shift, like a vibe shift that's evident within that space, but also, you know, I think given, you know, some of the, some of the, like, tactical preferences that Talkett has played with, maybe something that would surprise people in terms of being a window into how, you know, a head coach that we mostly associate with defensive

hockey sort of still thinks about interacting with his players, clearly a player's coach, right? Like, that's something that I think you need to, he has the X's and O's background, obviously, and Bonifides, but there's a, there's a, like an EQ there that I think has made him successful. Yeah, I think that's shown through. I mean, honestly, like, we, it's probably fair to say that we aired 50 minutes of our conversation. I think between the start when we were kind of just like doing some ice breakers and then talking after the call ended. And there's probably, probably 45 minutes worth of like unaired conversation.

I know. That was equally interesting. I know. They could have gone all day with him. And once he starts up his own podcast, Rick's receipts, which you'll be able to find on the on the Sports Night Radio Network, I'm sure. You'll get more of that from him. I mean, that unsolicited rant at the end that our esteemed producer and editor, Camberra,

the program manager here, had to edit a little bit for radio in terms of some of the bleeps. I thought it was incredible. I'm going to try to get it on Spotify as like the promotional teaser. for the show in terms of what to expect from us because, I mean, getting that type of a testimonial from a head coach was unbelievable contest. Super cool. The shout out to Cam, too,

for putting in the post hits as the edits. I thought that was super fun. What's next? I mean, I should say, like, we tried to get Billsito on because I thought it would be really cool. And part of my logic for this was Zach Lowe, who does an NBA show

and really was, like, listening to his show in the early years, made me want to do an equivalent for hockey because I just felt like the sport wasn't covered in that manner in terms of that detailed approach. He always does an interview with the championship coach or GM after the playoffs are done in terms of breaking down how it all happened, taking stock of where they're at right now.

And so I thought it would have been really fun to have Bill Zito on. We weren't able to make the schedules work. We're going to try to get him on at the start of next season because I feel like we've spoken indirectly about the Panthers in every one of these shows in terms of their team-building approach and how unique is. Panthers content. And so I feel like that would be a nice fit for us as well.

But I mean, this was awesome. I think the listeners really enjoyed it as well based on the response we've gotten. And so we're going to certainly be doing more of those. You got any parting shots here? We got another five minutes or so here. I mean, is there anything that you think is that we left out or is worth kind of talking about or rehashing as we as we sign out? I think more than anything, just thinking about some of the changes that we're watching

unfold here. and the idea of a pendulum that swings back and forth, right? The idea that sort of some of what we're tracking now will change. And the meta may be different by the time we get in to the season or get into November and are seeing sort of what works. And, you know, I think I'm looking around the league and some of what I expect this upcoming season, like I think we're in an era of increased stratification. I think that there is going to be a more predictable at the top end anyway, right?

For seven or eight teams, I think there's going to be a more predictable level that they hit that is in excess of league average. And I think it's going to be very clear who the striver tier teams are and who's got a shot. And I think that's going to be more solid than what we've seen in a long, long time. Partly as a result of cap growth allowing those teams to consolidate, specifically the floor. of the Florida Panthers, but also I think partly because we're, I mean, we only saw what four teenagers playing the league this here, right? Some of what Bill Armstrong talked about, the idea of the Florida Panthers being all in their late 20s, right? This, there's a statistical prime that might come earlier than you expect, but there's like a winning time prime that that comes a little bit later. And I do think there's a, like four guys.

There are four teenagers who are full-time NHLers in the entire league this year. And that's on the back of multiple draft classes that we regarded as being either historically or extremely strong, right? Benson, Will Smith, uh, Celebrini and but, that's, that's it. So, you know, I do think it's taking a little bit longer for some of these rebuilds to really go through, uh, despite, uh, Hughes and Gorton's work at expediting it and making that untrue. And it's, uh, it's sort of that those two twin factors, I do think are going to. create a really fascinating dynamic where to some extent parody is going to be not muted, but the dial is going to be turned down on it as a shaping force in this league. And, and, you know, that said, I do expect there to be somewhat more news across our, you know,

our absence the next eight weeks than then what we've seen in most of the past years. You always get some, it's the three year anniversary, actually, of the Matthew Kachuk trade. And, obviously we had like the Shea Weber offer sheet drop in the middle of the night in late July back in the what the summer of 2013 but I think this is going to be maybe it's not those huge big splashes but simmering in the background you know the things like the she loves trader the Dakota Joshua trade like I do think we're going to see more sort of like up periscope moments of NHL news like just like breaking the surface of the of the placid summer water over the balance of this off season well I don't think listeners want to hear that because we're going on a month to six weeks now of every insider being like there is more stuff coming don't you worry and everyone's just waiting and then this stuff happens and it's like pretty pretty uh mid yeah but i do think like i mean we've spoken about a length but like a team like the devils where you look at their current situation at their roster and it's like all right i guess we shouldn't expect anything because it's very possible that they just enter day one of the season with their current group of players

after signing lukews to a second deal but also there's just such an incongruity i guess guess what the pieces they have and the idea that that's the route they'd go as opposed to make consolidated and making some sort of a bigger deal seems hard to fathom to your point you look at the cup odds now here on july 22nd and four of the top five team the only the only one that's breaking through the mold that wasn't a conference finalist last year is the biggest goldenites who obviously lost at oilers in round two but they made the splashiest move of the off season and going out and getting Mitch marner in free agency or i guess it would be a sign and trade and so the idea I mean, you and I were talking about this off the air, but the idea that we're looking, staring down the barrel of another hurricanes, panthers, oilers, stars, conference finals seems pretty likely.

Yeah. For the most part. It should be considered to be likely. And it's just a question of whether or not, you know, and the thing is, is that the spoilers, the teams that could spoil it are also predictable. You know what I mean? Like it's also like maybe a team like Utah takes a big enough step. But for the most part, it's going to be Colorado. or Vegas or New Jersey or Tampa Bay slash Toronto.

Yeah. That spoil that party. And, and so, you know, it's not just the predictability at the very top end. It's the predictability in terms of those teams major rivals. And, and, you know, hopefully I'm wrong like sports injuries, um, you know, things do get wonky. Yes. In all walks of life and sports are at the end of the day representative of that. But I do think we're, it just feels unusually settled.

as we sort of approach the rest of this offseason. Yeah. You got anything to plug here on the way out? I'm taking three and a half weeks off at the athletics, so no. As you said, no one believes that. Yeah, you know what? If something major happens, I'll obviously check back in. Check back in for your Jack Roslovich deep dives.

Here's how you can help us out during the off season while we take our break. You can give us five-star reviews wherever you listen to the show. Please follow the footsteps of break talking and let our bosses at sports that know how much you enjoy. this series of shows and the you want us back ASAP in the fall. We got a great review here from Hairski recently

and they say, should have seen it coming that the PDOC showcases its true fastball around the same time of year as the MLB all-star game is happening. Hairski gets it. Join in on fun

and give us more of those five-star reviews, please join the PEOCast Discord as well. There's over 1,500 people in there now. The conversation in banter has not died down one bit during the off season.

And so get in there, join us. we'll still be popping in there sporadically as well while we're off, and it's going to be the best place to keep up with scheduling notes for when we're finally ready to come back. Thank you so much to everyone that engage with us throughout this wild ride this season. Tom and I, for the first year, did a regular Sunday special, which was always a highlight of our weeks, and then we did all the post-game shows in Palm Springs early in the playoffs,

and then obviously the ones in the immediate aftermath of every Stanley Cup final game. And so with the response that we got from that, I think there's no doubt about it. We're going to keep that going. And if anything, we're going to go back in the lab and try to kick around some ideas on how to blow that out even further next year. So without each and every one of you supporting us along the way, none of that would be possible. So thank you so much for all that. We're both deep and grateful for it. We are going to take that extended break now.

The plan is to come back sometime towards the end of September. So looking forward to that. One last time this season. you for listening to the Hockey Ocast streaming on the Sports Night Radio Network.