The Hockey PDOcast - Sunday Special: The JT Miller Trade Market and Team Needs

Episode Date: January 19, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance to break down the JT Miller market and how he'd fit on the teams that have been reported to be in on the trade talks. They also bounce around the league to update the playoff races, and the notable performances they saw this weekend. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitra Vilippovich. And joining me is my good buddy Thomas Jans. Tom, what's going on, man? Not much, buddy. Back from a week in Puerto Rico. So admittedly, I wasn't tracking hockey all that closely while I was gone.

I watched the Canucks game. So I watched two blowouts. And then I was at the Canucks game against Edmonton, their win last night. So back on the grind, at least for Saturday's slate. But do want to just, out of respect for our audience, be very clear about sort of the fact that right now this week, doing this Sunday special, the least amount of like raw game center live time I've put in all season. Which still puts you in the 100th percentile in hockey media. So I think you're going to be okay. It's a beautiful thing because we are back together here for the first time in 2025.

We did a show last week for our Sunday special, but it was remotely with. you in Toronto before your trip. It's going to be a fun one because I think last week we sort of focused our theme. We're going to try to do some themes here for each show, right, and kind of define them that way. Last week, we really focused on the wildcard races. And I think that was right because one of the most interesting and captivating developing stories for me, especially out east, is how we're seeing this sort of changing of the garden we've been waiting for with the young teams taking a step, playing much better hockey beneath the hood and making the Eastern Conference much more interesting than it's been in previous seasons. I wanted to focus today's

show more on the teams that are maybe a step ahead or a layer above or cut above in terms of we're under seven weeks now from the trade ad line. It feels like for the next couple weeks leading up to that, obviously the Four Nations is going to take over some of the conversation, especially once we get closer to that tournament, but trades, particularly directions, teams are going to go in, players available, needs for those teams, then players that can satisfy it fits and targets is going to be something that we're going to spend a lot of time on. And so I thought today it'd be fun to kind of look at that, talk about some of the players available, some of the bigger storylines around the league that we've seen developing in the meantime. And I think conveniently,

you mentioned off the top how maybe you haven't been as plugged in as in the past, other teams, the team you are plugged in is going to center a lot of this conversation because it feels like this J.T. Miller storyline that obviously took a big part of the Saturday conversation, especially with Elliott Friedman's reporting on hockey night and Canada, the second intermission, is, I think, a natural starting point for us. And then we can talk about other trades and other sort of fits or what teams could be looking for to upgrade their team between now and the March 7th trade deadline, but I feel like that's a natural kind of kickoff point for us. Yeah, and, I mean, I think the conversation on Miller, you know, and I'm curious to get your take on this, because we are talking about one of the most unique players in the league, I think.

You know, it's not a typical career arc to go from being, like, I think we all viewed Miller as a, like, good middle six winger. Yep. From, by the time he was. So when he was on Tampa Bay, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, by the time he worked his way out of Vigno's doghouse, right, until he was acquired by the Canucks following that 2018-19 season in which the Tampa Bay Lightning sort of go off, go absolutely nuke in the regular season and then get swept unceremoniously by Josh Anderson and the Columbus Blue Jackets. Honestly, what a weird thing that happened. What a plug for Josh, big Josh Anderson.

He was amazing in that C was, yes. He took over that series. He earned himself a lot of money. one of the greatest teams in the history of the league done in by Josh Anderson, a Josh Anderson heater. Amongst others for sure, but yes. For sure, but I'm just saying he was the face of it. For me anyway. So, and then he comes to Vancouver and truly, it's been volatile, but it's been mostly wildly good for J.T. Miller.

I mean, he's cemented himself as a star player. This is what's happened for J.T. Miller since 2019. He comes in, in that first season for Vancouver, he's like an incredible driver on the wing while taking faceoffs and winning 60 plus percent of them. For a young centerman in Elias Pedersen, they form what is the best line in the Western Conference. That team exceeds expectations. They take Vegas to seven games in the bubble after the pause. And Miller is truly, in terms of his individual contributions, something like a top 10 or 15 player in the league, sort of for the first time in his. career. The next year, it's the COVID bubble season. Miller himself misses the first few games with a, you know, asymptomatic positive test. Obviously, ends up missing more games later in the season when the team has a variety of COVID things. Now, Patterson gets hurt. But Horvatt misses a stretch of games, I think, in there. But Miller pivots to center. And what we see from J.T. Miller that season is far less impressive, far more like low-end,

top line winger or playing out a position at center. Yep. The next season, he goes off for 100 points again, 99 points in that Bruce Boudreau bump season. And we see this player who's now a full-time sentiment, but his defensive metrics are brutal at center. And you can see it. I mean, you can see the missed assignments.

You can see that he's not a defensive difference maker, but man, that playmaking in the middle of the ice was incredible. And of course, he doesn't just make plays. He's not just a savant. on the power play, he also plays with a physical edge and does a variety of sort of these other things. It draws a ton of penalties that, you know, we associate with like power forwards, but as in the package of a playmaking center, it's so odd. The next season, it's like this miserable campaign again where he struggles massively. He's seen barking at the backup goaltenders.

You know, there's whispers about his. And by the way, he also signed an extension before this, an eight-year deal. before this season. And then he has, the subsequent season is like marred by defensive issues, really struggles at center defensively, certainly for the first 60 games of the year. And once again, we're looking at a guy who's more like a low end first line winger, or more more like a low and first line winger playing out a position as opposed to a top 10 stud center the way he'd been just the season previous. Now, connects Fire Boudreau, hire Tocket, and for a hundred game sample, J.T. Miller both leads to the league and Pedia.

So that's crucial context. But also his two-way metric spike, he begins to play a level of, you know, exert like a level of two-way dominance five-on-five that we'd never previously seen from him. He's a center exclusively throughout that time. Commensurate with the way he's talked about. Yeah. For sure. He has a real hundred-point season, like actually breaks the 99-point milestone. zone and then is like hard-checking McDavid in the playoffs and you know I'm not going to say he won the

matchup because he didn't but McDavid only goes absolutely nuke two of seven games in that series and the Canucks stretch it to seven games I mean Miller's work and and the dark art of water skiing on McDavid through the neutral zone was commendable and gave the Canucks a chance to win that series a far more credible shot than they really should have um now Now, we come to this season, and once again, we've got Miller on pace for, what, sub point per game. The defensive metrics were good earlier in the year, but haven't been good for about eight weeks. He's dealt with some injury issues. He got walked this week by Kevin Fiala on a play that was just like, it's not just that he got walked by Kevin Fiala coming off the wall, because look, that can happen.

You can get walked. It was the recovery effort where he turns the wrong way on the point shot. This is just like, what are we doing here? Like, there's nothing, there's, there's no, nothing you can say to justify a play like that. I mean, it's not good enough for an NHL player, much less an NHL player with J.T. Miller's reputation for grit and competitiveness. I mean, that was, I don't even know, like, you, a flamingo is at least in the right position when they lift their leg. You know what I mean? Like, he turned the wrong way.

I don't, I don't, plays like that just drive me absolutely nuts. we're back to have J.T. Miller, who seems to be an even year player, having another season where he looks more like a low-end first-line player, high-end second-line player, as opposed to the top 10 to 15 player that the Canucks absolutely require him to be if they're going to be a contender. You know, their, they're like thin path to real meaningful contention requires J.T. Miller to be a monster. It also requires Elias Pedersen to be a monster. Neither have been very monstrous. over the course of this year. And now it does seem like there's, you know, certain fissures within the organization itself where, you know, this core feels bound for disassembly to some greater or lesser extent as the team enters

kind of a new phase. And that's coming. Like that is coming far more likely than not between now and the trade deadline. And it seems maybe expedited. even further than that. What's so unique about the situation, and by the way, it's great to see you make your return here all fired off.

I feel like you really sold yourself short there in the intro where you're like, you know what, I'm coming in lukewarm here a little thing. I'm like, that's the only... What are we talking about? And you know what? Credit to our listeners, by the way, and the Pidiogast Discord was blowing up with listeners asking, where does Drans put that effort defensively on the Brandon Sodd for checking scale

from earlier. No, I just want to assure your listeners, that Brandon Sod thing? Like, they're not unrelated, but the Brandon Sod thing was special. Well, it was a sign of a player checked out, and I would agree this one was very similar, right? Because it wasn't just isolated to that. You could argue the previous game in Winnipeg. There was one of Kyle Conner's three first period goals where Tyler Myers is out of position

and it's clearly J.T. Miller's responsibility as the center to cover for him down that middle lane. And he's just coasting in the neutral zone as Kyle Connor speeds pass both. with them and gets a breakaway goal to blow that game wide open. Those haven't been isolated incidents. It's been a recurring theme, not only this season, but in previous incarnations, J.T. Miller. The reason why this is such a unique situation is when a players, this, let's use the term, disgruntled, or it seems clear that we're in an impasse and an organization decides that they're going to move someone. And I think it's fair to say we're already at that point, considering

how much smoke there is, the fact that we've already had teams like the Rangers, devils, and even stars identified as being legitimately in some sort of conversation with the team that Canucks were considering healthy scratching them for quote-unquote trade-related reasons prior to Saturday's game against Edmonton. The reason why this is so unique is generally when you reach a point like this, one of four things in my opinion happened. A player's contract is unsettled. They're unhappy with usage related to that.

There's some sort of disagreement in a player's. opinion or style with a coach or the team stinks and isn't in playoff contention. And in this case, none of those is really true as far as I'm aware, right? All of those criteria are pretty much satisfied for J.T. Miller at this point. It's getting premium usage. It is a bunch of minutes. His usage has... His dip, especially on the power play with like mixing up, not playing him and Pedersen together, taking one of them off, certainly. But I think for the most part, this is the Canucks team that's still one point behind the flames for the second Wildcrat Spot in the West, five points ahead of Utah.

Still, as we talked about last week, considered a heavy favorite on the market to be the team that clinches that spot. And it's bizarre. Now, I have to admit, and this has been the case for years now, but I feel like especially so now with all this conversation recirculating. This is a player that I'm open to admit. I have a very difficult time evaluating and gauging both their value in terms of on ice, contribution and also how they're viewed as an asset, right? Because the positional stuff, you mentioned, some of the waning effort, the production that spiked, I mean, last year, that not only the 103 points, you mentioned the Euler series. I thought he was out of this world

in that Nashville series, right? When Elias Patterson was struggling and not producing at all, there were a couple games, especially the one in Nashville that really sticks in my mind, where pretty much 100% of their offense was driven through JT. Miller. every single scoring chance they created he had factored into. And that was at a time where remember it feels like years ago now, but there was like, oh, can Quinn Hughes shoulder this burden in the postseason because the Predator's forecheck is getting after him and getting hits on him? And you and I were even speaking about it. The team was struggling around them. And pretty much the only reason they were winning beyond getting somebody's goaltending was Jay Lee Miller. Yeah, carrying pretty much the

entirety of the team's offense, right? And so that's a phenomenal output in showing. And I think that's still in my mind. But then you watch this season, he has three five-on-five goals. And there's obviously extenering circumstances with him taking that leave of absence, which we still haven't really gotten a lot of clarity on. And he was injured in the preseason. He was injured in the three season. At the end of training camp, he was, he only played one game in the preseason. Then he had an apparent shoulder injury against the Flyers in the fourth game of the year, missed a couple shifts early in the first period. You know, we saw in that Washington game, he had sort of a dead arm again. Like, he's clearly been dealing with something pretty significant in terms of his upper body.

And it's about to turn a 32 years old in March. Yeah. Right? Not that he all of a sudden, from an age related production perspective, just fell off a cliff from last year to this year. But once a player starts getting into their 30s, I think it's pretty fair to start wondering at what point they're going to reach a different point of their career or how their body heals in some of these situations.

Well, I, my theory is you have like sort of the three phases. And phase one is he's still elite when he's healthy, but he's increasingly, that that's an increasing rarity for a player. And then there's the, they can do it some nights, but not every night. Yep. Stage. And then there's a great way to describe this year as Vancouver Canucks. Right.

And then there's, and then there's like the stage where you truly lose your fastball on, at five on five. By the way, the Pidiok has Discord is loving that. And everyone is drinking right now, uh, hopefully safely. But yeah, we got to get a bingo game going here, especially for you and I. Terms like fastball, I think gravity as well. have really taken over a lot of our discourse and banter. I think his contract is really interesting here because a team that was floated,

and I feel like for a team like, let's say, the Rangers, who I think is going to approach this with a bit more reckless abandon, let's say, because of all the contracts they already have on the books, how sort of just as a philosophy, as an organization, years over time, the Rangers seem to care a bit less. I feel like, they're probably going to be like, all right, whatever, we're just going to try to salvage this season and then pahoe ahead and then whatever the repercussions are a couple years from how we'll deal with

it. But for a team like the Devils, for example, that's been thrown into this mix as a potential suitor, I do, I feel like his contract plays a big role year because not only is he 3032, there's five more years after this one. So that's his age 32 through 36 seasons. He'll be 37 when it expires, $8 million A.A with a $5 million signing bonus do this summer as well. And that's like a legitimate consideration for teams as well. This isn't like, I feel like so much. of the conversation has been centered around like his production and and what he has as a player and then obviously the interactions behind the scenes and off the ice. But I feel like in mapping ahead, especially for a team like the Devils and you're trying to scale not only

competing for a Stanley Cup this year, but maximizing this Nico Hishier, Jack Hughes, Jasper Brad Corp for years down the line, that's like a pretty onerous commitment to be walking into as well, right? And so when I say I struggle with evaluating JT. Miller as an asset, it might not ultimately matter because all that matters is what someone in the league is willing to pay and how the market views them. And if that's the price, that's the price. But I feel like opinions are so divergent here for me, maybe for you, for the league and for fans in terms of like what a trade return would look like here. I feel like that's probably also factoring into the Canucks decision making in like how to proceed because the market just might

not be as lucrative, I guess, considering all those things as some of the trade returns that I've seen speculated. Like I saw like, oh, the devils are going to give up Shimon Nemitz and Mercer and a pick. And it's like, I just, that sounds great if you're a Canucks fan, but I just, I think that would be just an unfathomable price to pay up over the New Jersey Devils. Yeah, although I will say, like, I like a J.T. Miller acquisition more for a team like the devils than I do for a team like the Rangers. Like, I think if you're a team, I mean, so again, we're talking about such a unique player.

I mean, I sort of unpacked the volatility year over year inconsiderative. Decentialities, yeah. I think, I think when we ignore that, right, when we sort of just look at the full body of work, what do we get? Like, we get a reliable offensive driver, right? A guy who I think drives a little better on the wing than at center in terms of offense, largely because his instinct offensively, even when he was a full-time winger

was more as a center, was to like turn around, regroup again, prioritize possession and I think that's more unique when you're a winger as opposed to when you're a forward. I also always liked him a little bit better on the wing because I liked him as an F1. I liked him as a guy who was getting in on the forecheck and using his quickness.

He's not like the fastest skater, but his first two or three steps are elite. Quick on the top. Super elite. Yeah. And I think that's been a key part of his success. Now, he's worked at center because he's such a good passer and because he's good at slowing the game down offensively. But I still think that all plays on the wing, to be totally honest with you. And actually, you get sort of less of what I've what I've seen is the occasional downsides, the occasional double-edged sword. We're talking about one of the guys, one of the best finishers in the league. And we're not talking about one of the best finishers in the league. I know he only has three, five on five goals. But we're not talking about one of the best finishers in the league because he's like, I mean, Savon at beating a set goaltender, right? Like, it's not about that. It's about the timing and the way that he uses layered traffic. It's about his sort of intelligence breaking down when and how to shoot, when and how to fool goaltenders. He's incredible at that. Again, his penalty impacts, the amount

that he draws, the, you know, he takes penalties too, but his overall, the overall positive impact of having J.T. Miller from a drawing a ton of penalties because he, he's hard to get the puck off of and he gets under people's skin. I mean, it's through the roof. The defensive side of the game is not the weakness that it was for him in the past, although there have been, you know, more of those drips and drabs of just unconscionable breakdowns, especially over the course of the last like three weeks, which I don't know how much we call that true talent or not. And then there's the physical side of it.

When you put all this and the fact that, you know, operating on his downhill side as a playmaker on the power play. He is preposterously good. And by the way, versatile enough to be a difference maker. The net front or the other flank on his one-timer side. When you put all that together and then I guess we also have to throw on the volatility of his performance and the volatility concerns of his personality, which have. I think also the splits with and without Quinn Hughes on the ice. Right. I'm dating back to last year.

Obviously, this year it's reached an idea where it's like in the 30s in terms of. of his metrics at 5-15 without Quinn Hughes. Last year, it was like mid-40s, which still, I think when you talk about him as a driver, isn't necessarily commensurate with what you'd envision. Now, a team that would be acquiring them if it were the devils or, let's say, the stars, they don't have the infrastructure,

but they have the infrastructure of a bunch of other good players, whereas when you're not playing with Quinn Hughes and the Canucks, you're playing with probably a third pair talent defenseman. Whereas in this case, a lot of these other teams would have a spot where even if he's not playing... It's Brett Pesch. You know, Douggy Hamilton, it's like a position where you can still succeed without having to do every single thing. It's a different dynamic.

Yeah, the splits would concern me if I was an acquiring team, but not unduly because of what you're saying. Like, I think the splits are partly so dramatic because of the overall skill level of the Canucks defense beyond sort of what we're talking about with, um, with sort of Miller as benefiting unduly from Quinn Hughes, although there is an element to that. I think at five on five. I just think the uniqueness of the profile overall. And I, granted, I think there are valid concerns with the, you know, age and the injury status and, and what we've seen for, you know,

larger type forwards with his profile over the years. That said, I mean, if you're a team, a win now team today, if you're Colorado, right, the Casey Middle stat thing's gone pear shape on you, for example. I mean, I think this is a guy who can give you a tremendous shot in the arm in the near term. Especially considering he'll probably be on his best behavior upon trade, right?

Well, and especially if you have the sort of group that can maybe get more out of him than the Canucks have been able to this year. I just look at him as a player who, look, there have been three of the last six years where he's, including this one, where he's performed well, like a, bottom end of top line forward like the 60th to 70th best forward in hockey. But those other three seasons, he's legitimately performed like a top 15 forward in the league, maybe a top 10 in some of them. I mean, how often do those guys become available?

You know, like that's why I think the value, at least why I don't think the value is going to be like in cap dump territory by any means. It's that there's a ceiling case for this player that is extraordinarily, rare. It's just so strange to me. Like, I, you and I speak a lot about how environment is probably underrated a lot of the time. And we see, like, a team that acquires a player in a floundering situation where they're just, like, playing kind of pointless hockey on a rebuilding team, and then put them in a competitive situation, and all of a sudden, the player looks energized and way better. And you're like, oh, wow, like, they mined gold here. The Sam Reinhardt effect.

Yeah. I, I guess you could, like, argue, like, certainly it's been a roller coaster season. and hasn't gone the way that Canucks envisioned after how successful last year was. But like I said, there's still a playoff team or close enough that this isn't one of those spots. I get that there's off-ice drama and like a lot of other extenuating factors that you could point to. But to have a game, a home game coming off a road trip against the Kings, a division rival that you're still far behind.

You're not necessarily competing with them for a playoff spot, but it's like a big game for you to deliver that effort is a really tough look, in my opinion. Like, it's just tough for me to reconcile. It's so divergent to a lot of situations where you could point to as an example and be like, all right, but we've seen the way this plays out. For me, I think there are enough concerns. Do you want to talk a little bit about the fits for some of these teams that have been bandied about?

You mentioned Colorado. I don't necessarily view them because I think there's so many moving parts financially. They obviously would, I think, like to upgrade down the middle. But I feel like that's a bit too big of a swing at this. point for them. I feel like both the devils and the stars are more realistic. I guess the Rangers certainly have been viewed or positioned as the favorite. We've spoken so much about the Rangers in the past. I don't have necessarily anything that new to add, but I do think the other two from a fit perspective are pretty interesting. Yeah, I agree with you. I like the stars fit

potentially a lot, especially if you were to sort of cast J.T. Miller as the air to Joe Pavelsky. I mean, the left-handed air to Joe Pavelsky. Not quite as good on deflections, but I think there's a certain symmetry to that game. Not the same types of players, obviously, but there's the idea of plugging him into that role that was so good for them for so long. I mean, that appeals to me. I like the idea of how his area game and Robertsons could complement one another. And obviously, we know Robertson needs a bit of a punch in the arm at this point in the season. And so the Dallas fit to me just as a team that's been just like a little bit of juice away from really breaking through here.

That one stands out to me maybe more than any of the others. The rank, the devil's thing, for example, like I think you need to make sure that J.T. Miller is going to be a missing piece for you on PowerPlay 1 if you're going to get full value out of doing this deal. and I just wonder in a New Jersey system where the power play... Well, you're not going to run it through them. That's what I'm saying. And often it amounts to Jack Hughes skates over to you beaver tailing and you pass to Jack Hughes and then go work and get open. Not that Miller's not smart enough to... I assure Miller's going to love that, though.

But I feel like if you want to get the most out of this deal, if you're really going to get bang for your buck, I think you need to be a team where having Miller come and conduct a little bit on the power play, is going to be a huge boon for you. I think that's essential. I think Dallas has that more so than a team like the devil's. Well, especially I do view Miller as not to undersell them, but as an accentrator in that sense. And for the stars who have come so close and are looking for that kind of push you're alluding to there.

I think also contractually, Jamie Ben's 9.5 comes off the books this summer. Tyler Say Again's 9.85 is on LTIR right now. But I feel like they do expect him to come back for the playoffs. But given the chronic nature of the injury, I feel like his availability beyond this season is certainly up in the air as well. So you're viewing it as like a salary slot to fit in, especially down the middle. And we're maybe even on the wing because they have so much versatility in terms of positional flexibility.

That makes a lot of sense. Let's take our break here. Can I tell a quick story? I should have done it in the lead up. And then we'll get back to. Well, can we take a quick break here? Just to fulfill our obligations. And then we come back, that's a little...

I defer to you. My host, extraordinary. Segment one, segment two will kick off with your story. you're listening to the Hockey P.D.O. cast streaming on the SportsNed Radio Network. All right, we're back here on the Hockey-Ocast with Thomas Trans doing our Sunday special. Tom, I'm going to give you the floor here. So I was down in Puerto Rico for my buddy's wedding-ish, effectively. An old friend of mine had a wedding venue snafu pandemic sort of exacerbated at all.

He's been married for like two years. Are we going to do a 25-minute breakdown here or that, a deep dive of your buddy's marital status? I went down to Puerto Rico with a buddy. And this friend had rolled through Vancouver two and a half years ago and we'd gone to a Canadians game with you. I'd honestly, my short term memory is not the best. I'd like sort of memory hold this entirely. But, you know, I was mentioning you in conversation. And he was like, oh, yeah, I remember we went to that baseball game.

And then we drove, we just shared an Uber back to North Van together. And in that Uber, we were having a long discussion. Now remember everybody, this was two. and a half years ago, two and a half years ago, like, before Sam Reinhardt had debuted for the Florida Panthers. And you had mentioned to him a stone cold, hardcore Leafs fan that in your estimation, you'd have taken Sam Reinhart ahead of Mitch Marner as, as like just a raw contributor. And he was furious with the take. And he said, the two and a half years since watching that be dead on has made it so much worse for me. Anyway, just one of those things, like, I guarantee you never would have said anything like that public. But I can give you sort of credit now.

I don't even know if you remember this conversation. But he remembers it as something that he's rude from the last two and a half years. I mean, that makes sense because I've long been a Sam Reinhardt defender and appreciator. But I'm so proud of myself for that take. Passed me, absolutely killed it. I wish I had that on record here. On my eobcast, it has aged quite well. And not even as a knock against Mitch Martyr, just the-

of phenomenal heights that Sam Ryan and I've taken this game to from a two-way level. Before we went to break, we were talking about some of the teams that have been lumped into this J.T. Miller talk, and we kind of fleshed out, I think, to stars. I want to circle back to the devils real quick, because I think at first blush, I hesitated because I'm like, I really, from their perspective, I think you'd need to be very careful about mapping out contracts and financial commitments because obviously you don't want to take anything for granted. It's very difficult to win in this league. You look at even some of the cores that feature superstar players and you think would be positioned for multiple cups, they don't wind up getting there for whatever

reason and maybe they just get one kick at it. So if you get one opportunity to get there, you take it and then you deal with the consequences later. But from the devil's perspective, I think what enables you to kind of even entertain this is first off the luxury of having Jack Hughes an eco-history are locked up for a combined $15 million in change over the next two years and kind of the competitive advantage that provides. I think also having the center position locked up in that sense, obviously if one of those guys got banged up or had to miss time, it would be nice to have another top six center.

But I imagine the fit there would be putting J.T. Miller on a guy like Jack Hughes's wing and allowing him to do what he does best, which you highlighted in his game breakdown. and we've also spoken, I think, and this is an important point circling back to as we kind of transition to talking about different teams, this devil's team and what they need as a missing piece here between now and the trade deadline, right? We've spoken about how we'd like to see them add size on the wing, how I think they still need one piece there to kind of allow everyone else to slot in more naturally. Watching them in the past couple weeks, I think that's become abundantly clear. and you and I spoke about that in the Bear versus Bull case before the new year. And now watching their past 10 games where they've gone 2, 5, and 3 kind of sputtered a little bit here,

scoring only 19 goals in that time, the game against the Flyers on Saturday, where at home they generate just 13 shots on goal and really struggle to ever get going. Looking at the bottom six for this team. And it's bizarre because I think you and I both agree that the devils have so much talent and are one of the deeper teams in the league. man their bottom six though has been dire this season and there's been some moving parts with mercer and hala and kind of who's playing with who on the top six but between kirtis lazar dally bastion tatar lazar lazaar halla even giving curtis mcderbin minutes they have nine

goals between those guys and four of them have come from ericalla at five one five and that's just not nearly enough i feel like in watching this devil's team the top six is so good the blue line is so loaded, yet don't you feel like they could optimize or, I guess, create some more efficiency throughout their lineup? Like, it feels like there's still, I think, far too many wasted minutes when you kind of consider that crew of names I just mentioned and how little they're getting offensively from those guys. I know they made such a concerted effort this offseason of diversifying the types of players

they have, right, and not just being a pure offensive team and, like, really rounding out their game at both ends. and I appreciate that, but I feel like they need a bit more just to allow everyone else to succeed, I guess. Yeah, I mean, they had a very Carolina Hurricanes start to their game against Ottawa today,

or on Sunday, excuse me, where they outshot the senators 16 to 2 in the first period. And of course, Zach Oestapcheck ends up scoring the first goal. So I look, I think, I think it's a fair point.

The fact is, is that, you know, I still think another, we've talked about it. I still think another productive player with size on the wings. Yeah. Now, maybe size in the middle would be, could sort of achieve the same end. But I still think another productive player, it's not enough to get a Coke machine or just like size independent of goal scoring value. but another sort of dirty area goal scorer who can help you win on the wall, I still think they're short that.

And I think what you're talking about sort of dovetails nicely with that need. I feel like they need to be careful, though. And they might not even be considering this internally. This might be purely fan speculation online and everything. But like Dawson Mercer, I know that offensively the production hasn't been where you, I think, hope based on like how talented he is and some of the opportunities he's been given. but he's 23 years old and I think you and I are both still big believers in him in his game and he's a dog and that's not a player. I would just be like recklessly giving away in any trade and viewing

as like, all right, well, we're just sending money out to make the financials fit. Like, I think that's a legitimate piece. And on Nemitz, I know they're reaching a tricky position similar to what happened with David Eurecheck in Columbus where it's like a young player fed up with lack of opportunity and wanting to play and you look at this blue line on the devils and it's like it's just tough because they have six players who are deserving of spot fit it yeah but as a 20 year old right shot who was also banged up in the preseason right he was playing for slovakia he got hurt in the Olympic qualifiers in august i think his work in his way back he was so promising for me last year that it's another situation where i feel like his stock has has dropped way below where it needs to be

from like a perception perspective, at least, not that the devil's view it that way, but these aren't players that I'd be, I'm all for improving your team now, and I think this devil's team is a legitimate chance to compete for a Stanley Cup this season, but I think they need to be careful with that. I think they also need to,

and look, I'm always hesitant to channel Lou Lamarillo when I'm talking about the New Jersey Devils, but they have time and they should use it, right? I mean, this is not a team that should be, thinking in two or three year increments. Like I know you've sort of got the two years after this with Nico Hescher's contract. And that window where you've got both Hesher and Jack Hughes for a pittance of their true

value is important, obviously. But you have two years beyond this year. You know, like a 20-year-old right-handed defenseman might not have a spot naturally in your lineup today. But a year and a half thing. I mean, look how many blue lines have we seen get hollowed out over an 18 month stretch? I mean, repeatedly, never stop. So I do think the extent to which the devils need to be looking at this as five or six years.

Right. Like literally, on the one hand, I don't want to get too bogged down in the cup window thing. Like, you're either good enough to win now or you're not. And if you're good enough to win now, take your best shot. I do believe in that. And I do believe that the devils are good enough to, take a credible swing at that ball. So I think buying makes sense, but I don't think you should be buying in a way that involves guys like Mercer and Nemich that should be huge parts of what,

to me, looks like a durable window where you can knock on the door for four or five years here. Yeah, you should be scaling rather than two to three years, like five to seven. Yeah, at least with a situation and trying to maximize that you mentioned the senators in speaking about the devils and their Sunday game. I did want to quickly note, as we've been, around here and try to cover as much ground as we can with other teams. Watching that Sends Bruins game was one of the more eventful and fun games I've watched so far this season. It was a wild one. It was a Madneigh. The Sends have an early lead, blow it. Pasternak goes off offensively and then the senators with a net empty score two goals in the final three minutes essentially come back, went in a shootout.

And that was an awesome game. We also saw Columbus against New York, which wound up going zero-zero zero into a shootout in New York winds up winning it was also a very competitive game. Seeing some of these already at this point of the season, just genuinely meaningful from a point's perspective, but also the way they're being handled by the two teams involved has been so fun. And like we're already reaching a very important part of the season. What about Utah, St. Louis? I can't let you go without.

Well, Logan Cooley, I think this is, Utah's a blind spot for us, clearly. Yeah. Right? Because we've spoken an irrational amount about them on these shows, considering there's still five points out of a wildcard spot competing with two teams in different spots, but the flames and Canucks who have had their share of struggles or like contextual things or it's like, if you're a serious team, you probably should be ahead of them at this point. And Utah just, I mean, on this homestand, blue games against the Islanders late, against the Habs and Rangers,

had early leads played a little team seems have she doing it. Yet amidst that, Logan Cooley, with Guntherout, as we talked about, being promoted to playing with Keller and Schmaltz, and how he's taken off and leveled up. He was good early on, but he's legitimately reaching best player on the ice, regardless of who's out there on either team status. And that is so exciting. Yeah, right?

That's like, we talk about guys who make a difference, guys who actually ultimately matter. He's not there yet because he's still so young, and this team isn't winning games they should. But he's approaching that status, I guess, for me faster than I probably expected. And it might not matter for the purposes of this season. But if you're a Utah fan or just like cheering for this organization to get it together, that's probably the most important development of this entire season. The Utah thesis, though, is still in play. I'm going to keep.

There's enough talent there. And now Marino's back. Jersey will be back at some point. I assume we've heard them like they're going to make some sort of a trade, I think. And they've got time. They've got, they've got, what, almost two months still before the deadlines. There's like under 50 days. It's like six and a half weeks. So almost two months. And, you know, I think this stretch. between now and the four nations. Like if they're going to go on one of these young team suddenly becomes legit in the second half and charges hard and that the comp

honestly for me that I think about when I think about this is that that St. Louis Blues run to make the playoffs in like 2008 because people now, the St. Louis Blues were so good for so long that people have forgotten how aggressively they rebuilt. Yep. From 05 through 08 is sort of the early

part of the Doug Armstrong era. And you know, that team had just this ridiculous, like 28, 4 and, and then, you know, they lost the first round. It doesn't matter. They ended up being this team that made the playoffs 14 to 15 years or whatever and won the cup at the very, like, probably at their last credible opportunity to do so with that core. And yeah, I sort of look at, I still look at this Utah team as having maybe some of that potential. and they still have time to get it together. It's just until they're going to be the last team in that Western mix that I abandon hope on just because I think they have more they have more conceptual juice than anyone else.

They have the ability, I think, to go on a tear that I just don't really think the flames or the blues and maybe not even the Canucks have. Yeah, I think that's fair. Like I said, though, probably a blind spot for us. Just until things fundamentally change. They're going to continue to be a blind spot for me. They will. Do you want to quickly talk about the Oilers?

Because you obviously got to see them on Saturday against the Canucks, a bizarre effort from the perspective of like their shot total. And I think for me, I've become programmed at this point to feel like they're inevitable in a sense, because as you watch this week played out, they had pivotal games against the Kings at home to start and then a back-to-back in Minnesota, a band-up wild team, but still a fight-sief team at home. and then second level back-to-back at altitude in Denver against the avalanche. And in all three of those games, the score lines wound up close.

They kind of started slow in all of them. And as the game progressed, I'm not going to use the term fastball here, certainly for anyone keeping score at home. But they leveled up their game to a point where they just felt like it was an inevitability. Like the opponents could not handle it. And they took over and they wound up winning those games. And so when they went down to 3-0 in Vancouver on Saturday night, I kind of expected the same, and then you get the two dry-sidal goals in the second period, and it's like, all right, here we go again.

And then they just didn't have it in the third period, and the Canucks shut them down. And so maybe that's more of a testament to what the Canucks are still capable of defensively. It was just spoken about. But this Oilers team is just, I think inevitable is the only way to describe it. They still had these sequences where they'd make seven or eight incredible plays, stacked up one on top of the other and then score or generate a ridiculous scoring chance. The difference in their game last night versus some of what we've seen, especially over the course of the past week, was they looked dead, tired.

McDavid and Drysidal didn't have full two-minute power play shifts. Honestly, especially like in the second period, it really looked like Noblock was pacing them. They put McDavid and Drysidle together, so they felt pressed enough to load up, but they weren't loading up in terms of actual minutes burden. and I just didn't think that they had the ability to keep pushing. In the third period, for example, if you go watch that game, very first shift, they generate two beautiful chances, one off the rush and one set up. And then there's like long stretches of that third period where the Kinnock's

were just able to sort of play their game. And it wasn't what we see from the Oilers usually when they're pressing. When you look at sort of their last 10 games, how many time zones they've been in, how condensed their schedule has been, how much. they've won and then sort of think about last night that last night's lost to Vancouver being their third game in four nights. McDavid and Drysidal both hit mid-20s in terms of minutes at elevation executing that incredible comeback against the avalanche. I just thought they looked like a team that had run out of gas against the Canucks and that's sort of why I don't look at the

performances being too well certainly zero concern but not even like that's surprising. I kind of thought on paper, I thought on paper that the connects were bumping into the oilers at the right time, even if the vibes around both teams could not have been more divergent going into the night. Yeah, I think they're an interesting spot though because now they've all of a sudden crept up with Vegas losing a couple of games. They're in tie for first in the Pacific with them. They're also within legitimate striking distance of the Winnipeg Jets for first in the West. And we've spoken about the value of home ice, especially after how last season ended. and I think it's to be interesting to see how hard they sort of push for that in the second half of this season. The other note that I had from Saturday's games, and you alluded to this in speaking about the abs as being in the market and looking to upgrade at center, I've spoken about how much Casey Middlestads struggled this season and he had this 27 game stretch prior to Saturday's game against the stars, where he had one goal and seven assists in that time.

The Oilers game that we talked about, Jared Bednar bumped him down to the fourth line, essentially, for a large stretch. of it, which was very telling. But in that game against the stars, they put him with Druin and Lekinen. That line creates four goals, was buzzing all night. And so it's just one game. But I think it's an encouraging step for the abs. And I feel like they're probably going to use these next six weeks or so to flesh out whether that's a sign of things to come, whether that's something they can rely on, or whether they're going to have to legitimately pivot and make some sort of an aggressive move. So I like what I saw from there. I've been pretty critical with middle Stats. So I did want to like acknowledge that it was a step in the right direction and, and he looked phenomenal with those two guys. And so if they can keep that going, that's obviously a huge development for the act. I mean, I keep seeing these videos of Landisog at Morning Skate. I heard that the Chishkin looks like he's maybe on the verge of returning. I mean, if you've got a guy like middle stat who's more like like an NPC version of a middle six center, you know, not a driver himself necessarily, but like has some connectivity.

And I still like the stylistic fit, the ability to play the avalanches preferred type of sort of transitional high tempo skill game, credibly as a middle six center. I still think that's a piece they needed and a piece that has shown its value in the time since they acquired him in fits and starts. I just sort of wonder, does it look different and do we feel different if he's got another driver, another guy really helping carry that line on it? Um, my guess is, my guess is it might look very different. So if I was the house anyway, I think with on the middle stat file in particular, I think I'd want to expand my sample to the maximum amount before ripping the bandaid off one way or the other. Yeah, because I think connector is a great way to put it. Because he can't traditionally as a center like carry the puck in that transition. Yeah. And I think that's where he's faltered having to do more of the heavy lifting. But if you have guys around him, they can do that and win battles and he all he has to do is keep the puck moving, especially when you get in the offensive zone. I think he thrived there the way he did down the stretch last year for them after they acquired him. All right, that's kind of all the notes I got here. I mean, I think we should next week, and we didn't get to it as much as I wanted to today because we spent so much time documenting the whole J.T. Miller thing.

I was thinking, what about a fastball segment? I was thinking about this, seriously. You want all of our listeners to just absolutely wasted. Absolutely wasted. I'm thinking we do one where it's like who can hit whose fastball. and use it to sort of frame the contenders and their relative strengths and weakness. Well, I was thinking about this because, as to put a bowl on this and circle back to it, the Canucks over the past 10 days or whatever, right?

They play five games. And now you mentioned the Oilers travel and condensed schedule. We should note, like, part of this was the Canucks essentially had, what, eight games in 14 days where they didn't play in the same city. I consecutively, like they kept moving out. Including in that L.A. King's loss. Yes, of where their effort was so brutal. And I think that's part of it. But they essentially had three stink bombs against Carolina, Winnipeg, and L.A. I can't even

sort which one was worse. I thought all three were optically just disastrous. They got outscored 13 to 2 in those games. They sandwiched them with efforts in Toronto and then home against Edmonton on Saturday night where they held those two teams to 35 combined shots and seven combined high-dager chances against. The mark of a good team, though. And we've spoken about fastballs and like what level teams can take their game to. We will always speak about fastsons. The mark of a good team though isn't your fastball. It's important, certainly.

But I think the ability to consistently not only get there, but then when you don't have it, have resourcefulness and outs of ways you can win games against other good teams when you don't have that A game, like when you're not just completely locked in structurally, defensively and just leaning on a team, if you can muster enough offense or different ways to manufacture goals and a win, that's the mark of a good team for me. And so you watch those games and I think it's easy to tell yourself a story or narrative

of like, all right, this team can compete for a playoff spot or be a dangerous out. But we're going on enough of a sample now for a team like the Knucks where that effort is just so inconsistent that I don't think that's necessarily a good barometer of what they're capable of. Like anyone can put together an effort like that on one night,

but if you can't follow it up again, then that's just maybe not the team you are. Well, or if that effort is essential to what you do as opposed to being something that, like, can put you over the top, like, their offensive baseline is just too low for, you know, for sort of the consistency of effort to make a difference, right? Like, they just don't have enough in terms of what they're generating five on five, especially in minutes when Quinn Hughes isn't on the ice for that other stuff, that for the speed or the clicks on the radar gun to actually matter, right? because there's a fundamental issue that is intractable aside from Elias Pedersen and J.T. Miller start playing the way they did last year and, and honestly, maybe even better than they did last year, given the unlikelyhood that they'd benefit from the same amount of bounces.

And I don't know that we haven't seen in a long time from this group. I want to quickly note in terms of that conversation, we spoke about Utah, we spoke about the Knox, the Flames. A nice win on the road in Winnipeg on Saturday. Dustin Wolf was phenomenal. Upcoming stretch here before the Four Nations. they have 10 games left, seven of them at home. And the reason why I note that is obviously home road splits or whatever.

There's a lot of variables involved, but it's a team that's been significantly better at home and seven of their next 10 are at home. So it's an interesting stretch for the flames to see if they can not only hang in this race, but especially with some of the teams sputtering or wasting points around them. Like I think there's an opportunity to subtract. Yeah. Because that's now in play for sure. That's now in play.

And that could change, you know, if you're, holding a flames to make the playoffs long shot ticket. I mean, that's something I think at this point you got to be banking on. These are exciting times. The two teams I think you and I have been really high on the Blue Jackets and Sands. We didn't talk about the Blue Jackets much today. I just did a Zach Wrenski deep dive, so I thought that fulfilled that. But they're currently as we're recording sitting as the two wildcar teams, we'll lose your conference by point percentage. And I think we're both need the Utah glow up. We just need that and then we're going to check all our boxes. Okay, next week, we'll figure out what our theme's going to be. I'm skeptical

goal that it's going to be a fastball show. Maybe we'll save that for another day, but maybe we can do more trade stuff as we get closer and closer to the trade headline. Tom, anything you want to plug here on the way out? Check me out at the athletic. I'll have some interesting stuff I'd imagine over the next 24 hours as I sort of sort through the wreckage in Vancouver. Awesome, buddy. We'll keep up the great work. Hope everyone enjoyed today's Sunday special. That's all for today. We'll be back Tuesday with more and then back next Sunday, of course, with Tom. As usual, thank you for listening to the HockeyPed. streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.