The Hockey PDOcast - The Beasts of the East in the NHL

Episode Date: November 23, 2022

Dimitri Filipovic hosts another episode of The Hockey PDOcast where he is joined by guest Matt Porter in the first half and Sean Shapiro for the last half. The guys dive into some of the NHL's Eastern Conference Elite including Patrice Bergeron and the success the Bruins have had so far along with the hot streak or "heater" that the New Jersey Devils have been riding. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.  If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2015. It's the Hockey Pediocast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey Pediocast. My name's Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me is my pal, Matt Porter. Matt, it's been way too long. I think it's been a couple of years since I've had you on the show. I'm excited that we finally have a chance to do this.

How's it going about? It's going great. Yes, it has been too long. I have seen a lot in the past however many years. It might have been since 2019. Yeah, I think it was a sounding couple of times. final right yeah and the world is the same uh since then so it's it's nice it's nice to recoup no big changes um here's a plan for today we're gonna do a patrice bergeron appreciation show

because i've been looking for an excuse to do this for a while not that we necessarily need a special excuse but i feel like him hitting the thousand point mark for his career on monday night gives us just that and you and i are two of the biggest patrice bergeron appreciators although i will say regardless of your allegiances. I think for the most part, his approval rating in terms of hockey fans is about as good as it's going to get. I feel like everyone has a deep-rooted respect and appreciation

and admiration for Patrice Bergeron. Do you think that's fair to say? 100%. I can't imagine anybody. Like, I've never seen anybody with a wild anti-Patrice Bergeron take. I can't stand how classy that guy is. Yeah. God, yeah.

What would you even base that in? I just, well, we're just playing for the Bruins, I guess. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, but even still, you know, I hate that guy. He's so good. Yeah. That kind of thing. Well, I think there are, I will say,

I think there's probably fans of Atlantic division teams that for the past six years have been baking into their projections for their own team that the Bruins are going to take a step back because Patrice Bergeron is going to decline. And so they've been waiting endlessly year over year and just being sorely disappointed. So maybe those people are. are not the biggest fans of him? I think it surprises everybody that he's still going at 37. Like, he had so much left on the table last.

Like, if he retired, you'd think, I mean, he was almost a point per game guy last year. I know obviously points are everything, as we've discussed. But it's, it would be ridiculous for him to retire at this point. I don't know how many more years he wants to do this, but he looks like a player to me that can play until he's 40. Yeah, he can. I'm a surprise as now. anybody yeah well i guess we'll save that sort of the what the future holds for him next i kind of wanted to spend the good chunk of this talking about what he is as a player now and what we see from

them and and i in preparation for this way back and like watched most of his shifts from this season i wanted to really just get a deep dive on a feel for myself you get to cover them up close and personal and on a daily basis and you sort of get to see the magic of that and i feel like he's probably one of those players this applies for most guys i'd say but just because of how detailed he's his own game is. I feel like watching him in person gives you an added appreciation to what he does because sometimes he does things like off the puck and maybe like the puck is ahead of the play. And so if you're watching just on your laptop, the camera is following the play and he's behind the play and he's probably already doing something to give himself a slight advantage for whatever

is going to happen next. So I feel like getting that bird's eye view of watching him live from the press box probably gives you an even greater appreciation of what he does out there. 100%. And there's a lot of different ways that we could take this. But I see him, I guess a good way to frame it is like I see him as the ultimate support player. Like his ability to fill the lane behind where the puck is and where the pressure is from his teammates is. You know, we were talking off camera about his superpower, which he really, I guess it would be his hand-eye, as you mentioned. Like it's probably just that ability to just be in a lane and close off options elsewhere

allowing a guy who has fresh legs or, you know, like a Jake Debrusk or a Brad Marchand, even a defenseman like Hamas Linom or Connor Clifton, you know, when they're, you know, in zone. He allows everybody else to kind of do the work where he's in the middle of the ice, where he's filling those lanes. And it's also, it's also his ability to make a quick bump off the wall or, passed out of the corner or like pick up a secondary assist like it's it's so fitting for me that his thousand point the other night was a secondary assist where he just had a carry through the through the neutral zone made a little kind of a delay move and he just kind of got everything

going and then it was on a bradmarsh hand goal i mean that's completely fitting for for me is he's compiled a lot of points especially this season with those kind of secondary plays those support plays Yes, well, and I think the thing for me is like if you look, what's remarkable about it is you think in theory, I mean, it is. The league around him is getting younger and I think discernibly faster, right? Like every year new players come into the league and they're just so much faster than the previous guys that were playing before them. And despite that fact, he's getting older. You'd think he's theoretically, at least physically slowing down. But then you look at his actual production. And there's really like literally zero signs that his is declining in even the slightest. In fact, I think you could put together a pretty compelling argument, and I guess I will hear in a second that he's actually getting better, which is just preposterous to think about a player who's turning 38 in July, he's in year 19 of playing in the NHL, he's played north of 1400 games now combined regular season in playoffs, and 167 of those are playoff games, and I think you could probably say, like,

those count for one and a half or two regular season. in games in terms of the physical and emotional toll they put on a player's body. And so you look at the totality of that and the fact that he's producing the way he is now where he's on pace for 39 goals, 78 points, and is still the best five-on-five driver in the league. I think to me it's just remarkable that he's still able to do this. So I kind of wanted to use this time to dive into those details of how he does it because you're right.

He's the ultimate support player. He does a lot of subtle things that kind of happen before. for the actual play that we generally care about and highlights. But I want to talk more about what he does because it feels like it should be more applicable, yet there really is only one of Patrice Bergeron. Yeah, it's his mind, obviously. Right.

I think his, for me, too, it's also his impact on the team. Like, you know, you have now a full generation of centers who have watched him and tried to learn and emulate what he does, you know, whether it's, you know, how does he, what does he do after the puck has dropped? You know, like in a faceoff, let's say he loses the face off. Where does he go? What does he do? It's, there's so many different things that you think of, like, just knowing where the space is,

you know, reading off, reading off of his teammates. I think of this goal that he scored the other day against Chicago where it's, it's, Chicago is getting cooked. Like they're absolutely, you know, they're done. It's a one-nothing game and they, and they look, I mean, they end up losing six to one. They're just a mess. But it's all Bruins in the offensive zone. They're rotating around.

They get, he gets two quick one-timers. And it's, his teammates reading off of where he's going, he's reading off of where they're going. He just basically finds the soft area where there's seemingly chaos elsewhere and he's open for an easy one-timer. Like he's, I've, in my writing and my reporting, like, it is kind of difficult to write that concretely, like, how a guy gets open. How does he find a soft area? Because it's such, obviously, it's such a free-flowing game. But he just always seems to do that.

I mean, his career highlight, like, the number one, like, like, the most, you know, iconic Patrice Bergeron goal against Toronto in 2013, you know, it's just him. finding a rebound and it's always coming it came to a stick and I know it's like you know not the not the most nerdy way of explaining it yeah but he finds those soft areas yeah the way I've heard of describe the way I've heard of described is he's always available for a pass in both in both zones right whether it's in front of his own ed and defensive zone and he's kind of helping one of his defensemen supporting them for a breakout or if it's in the offensive zone and he's kind of like a pressure release valve in the bumper for whoever has the puck on the wall or whatever like you you can always count on him being available for a pass.

You're never like, if you're a quarterback, for example, when you're looking around, you're like, oh, where's my, where's my number one wide receiver? It's like, oh, he's being covered. I can't throw to him on display. That would never happen if you, if Patrice Beres-Berner was your number one wide receiver because he's always available for a pass.

Yeah. And he's, and he's not that, he isn't that number one wide out in the sense that, as we've said, he's not, he isn't the physical freak, you know, dominant guy who's going to just Randy Moss somebody,

you know, for a ball. He wins battles, but it's by positioning, it's by being above the pocket. If he's not above the puck in the offensive zone, he knows exactly the risk he's taking to get underneath the guy and win that battle and find somebody. Obviously, you know, the chemistry with him in Marchand is a big part of his career. And you're just being just years and years and years. I mean, it's been what, 11 years now they've been together. I mean, that's, you just don't really see that with linemates in the NHL. You know, they've, the conversations they've had over the years, you know, of plays,

especially off the face-off. I remember, I think you're talking in the preseason, I believe, you know, just about their face-off plays. And that's something that I've watched throughout the years and just enjoyed, you know, their quick stuff off the power play where they scored two seconds, you know, especially when Tori Krug was there. I mean, those plays that they made were amazing to watch. One thing, too, like, I don't want to underrate his skill in this.

Because he has added that one-timer. You're really like in the past five or six years, it's really been a part of his game as he's become one of the premier, if not the premier bumper players in the league, especially on the power play. He gets it off quick. It's always accurate. And one of the things that I've noticed, too, like, he will subtly change the shooting angle. Like he scored a goal against Jordan Bennington, you know, earlier this season where

he kind of, he settles the puck and he like, he fakes that he's going one way, but then he just kind of quickly snaps it, you know, across the net into another open corner. And, you know, so just little, little things like that, you'd have to kind of slow down the video and, you know, and watch. He's a really skill player. I mean, that's, it's just, if you were describing Patrice Bergeron to somebody, it would be he just, he does everything. well, but his brain is elite. That's basically kind of, kind of Bergeron. Well, it's interesting you noted that because I've got him down for 47 one-timers this season in watching all of his shots back. And I don't have that in comparison to the rest of the league.

I'd imagine it's pretty high compared to his peers. And especially when you consider that he's spending a lot of that time in the offense zone in the meat of the defensive coverage, right? Like, it's not like he's on the outside and he's just open for one-timers. He's like around bodies all the time. Yet he's making. making himself available to get that one timer off. And to me, it's like, yeah, that perfectly captures and illustrates that dimension he's added to his game and how he's made himself such a threat on the offensive zone over time. And I think that is kind of a more nuanced and new wrinkle to his game that he's added as he's

gotten older. Yeah, and how many of those one timers were blocked? Like, not many. You know, he's definitely getting it through. when you talk about him being a 5-1-5 driver, I was looking at some of the numbers this morning. I mean, obviously, you know, the numbers are always there. Like, you look at this point in the season,

I feel like, and this is no disrespect to the devils, I'm not the guy that's going to, like, you know, do a deep dive on them and tell you if they're legit or not. I believe, I tend to believe that they are. Like, I see a lot of good there. But, like, it seems like when you look at, you know, expected goals for 5-1-5, like it's always the top 10 are like a superstar like a jack ickel this year

Matthew could chuck this year a guy like Dougie Hamilton maybe five guys from whatever team is on a heater no no disrespect to the devils and the Bergeron and Marchand and that's them every single year one of the things that I think is critical in you know is his usage

and like in 5-on-5 time on ice average time on ice he's about 12 minutes a game which is obviously not a lot But then you look at what he's doing in those minutes. And, like, his efficiency is incredible. You look at the raw scoring chances that, you know, at 5 on 5 when he's on the ice, it's 140. Raw numbers obviously don't do a lot for anybody.

But that's 137 in the league, right? That's not a ton. He's 468 in the league. In terms of four and against you mean, like total? No, just raw scoring chances four that the brewers have gone. Okay. Yeah. Yes, 140 of them.

That's 137th in the league. He's 468th in the league in 5-15 time-wise. Around that 140 number, Leon Drysidal, Miko Ranton, they're around that range. They're 142, 143. Drysidle's playing 17 minutes a night plus at 5-15. Ranton is playing almost 18 minutes tonight. It's just so much is happening when he's on the ice for the Bruins.

and he's not even doing it. It just seems like he's not doing a lot. It's just shutting off options, I think, being from the middle of the eye. And what I will say is, you're right. I think that's a student observation by you. I think he was playing like 13.5. 5.15 minutes a couple years ago. Then they toned it down into the 12s.

It's actually down to 1123 per game now, which is pretty much the lowest he's ever played. Now, he's still playing 18 minutes a game of all situations because they use him on the first unit power play, first unit penalty kill. And I think it's a lot easier for them to pick their spots with them a little bit because no team has held the lead more than the Bruins have this season. So when you're playing from ahead, you can kind of lean on other teams and not necessarily just have to get your top line out there all the time. I think that number is probably going to go up a little bit as the season goes long and they get into different game states. But I think it's smart. Like, yeah, he's played a lot. He's older.

They should be playing the long game and preserving with him. And that efficiency of whatever he's out there is remarkable. Like I've got some of the numbers here. the high danger chances with him on the ice at 5-on-5 are 54 to 22 for the Bruins. They've got 67.7% of the expected goals with him on the ice at 5-15. And I'll keep in mind, the good chunk of this is without Brad Marsh and Charlie McAvoy, who both missed the start of the season.

5-on-5 goals are 10 to 3 with him on the ice, which is remarkable to me because the Bruins have given up three 5-on-5 goals against in 220 minutes with him out there, generally playing against the other team's best players. Like it's comical. All of his five-on-five numbers almost cannot even be compared to other players. It's like he's generally in his own stratosphere, which is just so, so remarkable. Like I thought last year I was like, wow, I can't believe he's doing this.

And then he's somehow taking it up another level this season. Yeah. And you mentioned the penalty kill too. Like early on, it's been more Thomas Nosek and Charlie Coyle as their top penalty kill pair. So I think they're smart there. You know, they don't have to burn those matches. they've been up so much. I mean, that their, his offensive zone,

he's getting like 60%, some like 60% of his starts in the offensive zone. Like he's, but it's like you know that any critical situation he'll be out there. That's just a given. It's just, it is ridiculous that they are playing this well early on. They can rest him.

They didn't need Brad Marchion or Charlie McAvoy early on the bank as many points as they. they have. So it's just that I see him, you know, being a 20-minute guy in the playoffs, which is what you want. And that's, if they're going to extend his career like they have, I mean, they're doing all the right things in that, in that regard. His skill, by the way, when we're talking about his skill, I mean, I would say shooting accuracy,

probably pretty close to elite. I mean, I think of a, there was a preseason goal against Vitech Vanichek, where he, just wired it from like 40 feet, like a Posternak style one-timer. I haven't seen that since, but I mean, he can definitely, you know, he's definitely a very accurate shooter. Well, which is interesting you say that because I feel like for a while there, I'm not, I don't have the numbers pulled up right now, but I feel like for a few years there, he was more of a volume-based scorer

who like his shooting percentage actually wasn't that high. And then he's now he's become like the pure efficiency guy. It's so wild. Yeah. Yeah, well, there's, there is one part to that, too. I was talking with him last year about this. Like, he will just, like, if, like, if the team needs a face off, you know, he, he, he is the guy that will, at the start of his shift, throw it on that, you know, glove side and try to get a face off. Like, there is that.

I don't know if, I don't know if, you know, the stats, crews and ranks are counting that as a shot on that. I would assume they would, you know, if the goalie gloves it. but he'll also go if he knows that he has Brad, you know, Marsha coming off the bench or somewhere, you know, coming downhill, he will throw it blocker's side or low pad

to try to get it in the corner, you know, and then set up their offense that way. So like he's, he is wasting shots, um, so to speak, but,

you know, for him it's calculated. Well, here's, I wanted to highlight two more things that I've noticed from him. You know, I was talking about how he's always available for the past. the timing of how he makes himself available to me is impeccable, right?

Because it's one thing for a guy to just stand in the slot and with a stick on the ice and waiting for it. That makes you less dangerous by default because the opposing defender can tie up your stick if they see it there, right? Like they know, okay, this guy's a threat. I'm going to neutralize it. He's like, he's got his back turn to the play on some of these where the puck's at the point. And then he spins around and all of a sudden his sticks down. And I think a great example of that was the sixth. that play they ran against the Canucks the other night where they scored where the puck goes

around, it goes to David Pasternak at the left flank, and he kind of disguises like he's going to take a shot because he's one of the best shooters in that position. And instead, he rifles a shot pass right on the tape of Bergeron, who half a second before that wasn't even in the play. And he had turned around, spun around, put a stick down, and he redirects it into the net. And I think, to me, that demonstrates three things, right? One, Bergeron's greatness in terms of the timing. knowing to make himself available to the familiarity between those guys and the chemistry they've developed and how long they've played together. And three, also, Pastornak, I should say, his development as a dual threat playmaker,

right, because he's become so much more than just a goal scorer. And so you see all of that in action. And it's just, it's beautiful. It's like, it's hockey at its, at its finest level when they, when they're clicking like that. Yeah. It's the, it's the chemistry. When people talk about, oh, you can't really like, you know, put a finger on chemistry.

That's chemistry right there. it does make me think of the chicken and the egg of, you know, Bergeron's numbers over the past five, six years have obviously risen, you know, and that's partly due to usage, partly due to him becoming, you know, a key powerplay player, you know, becoming more mature NHLR, but obviously, you know, Brad Marchand's development, David Posternak's development, I would love to be able to figure out how much of that is Bergeron, how much of that is them. You know, obviously you could just say, oh, he's playing with better players.

You know, so obviously he's going to get more cookies. But it's, I feel like he makes them better more than they make him better. But it also goes back to, you know, he doesn't have to do as much as he ages. You know, he has Brad Marchand on the forecheck. Jake DeBrusk on the forecheck is the F1. And he can always be, you know, the high guy in the zone. While O'Connor Clifton, you know, has figures out what he could do in the league. he has over the last three three years, you know, where he's figuring out where he can go,

you know, when he can pinch down, you know, when he can do his crazy rushes that he likes to do. The guy like Hampus Lindholm coming with his incredible, you know, size and strength combo, you know, he now he finally has a, no disrespect to Anaheim, but now he finally has, you know, a center who's always going to be in the right spot, who's always going to be filling the right lane, closing off the right option or rotating high if he pinches down low. That's been huge in Charlie McAvoy's development too. You know, McAvoy loves to go around the net with the puck. Bergeron's always going to be in the right spot where, you know,

and if he's not in the right spot, filling, directly filling, you know, back filling where McAvoy was, somebody else is going to be doing that because Bergeron was closing off another, lane or, you're filling another spot where the Bruins needed somebody. So for me, it all comes back to him. And like I said before, too, like the impact that he's had on the other centers, the other forwards in the organization, we're not even going to get into the leadership part. Like, that's the, that's kind of the behind the scene stuff that, like, you notice when you're around every day is like just the little things he does, you know, the phone calls and the text messages and the conversations and whatever. You know, and that's a whole other thing.

But just physically on ice, you know, the impact that he's had on everybody just is immense. and the reason that they've been, you know, with Pittsburgh and Washington, one of the, you know, the three most winning this teams over the last decade. Yeah. Well, you know, the other point that I was thinking about while we're talking, I should mention is face-offs because I think simultaneously, it's something that is in league circles, overrated and underrated at the same time, right, depending on who you talk to.

I think the issue, the two issues we bump into most when people, you know, get overly excited about face-offs are, one, for most guys, they're like good face-off players are like 52 or 53% of the time they're winning the draw, right? And then when you think about it, it's like, all right, well, compared to their peers, they're taking like 15 to 20 draws a game. That's not actually that much of a surplus in terms of how often they're winning you the puck. And second of all, it's, we know that what happens after the draw is just as important. We don't necessarily have a stat to capture that because it's more defined by like, you know, the events that happen after there's not one catch-all,

but that's just as important. If you win a draw and then you don't do anything, anything with it, you may as well have not won it, right? Or if you're giving it right back. The reason why I bring it up with Bergeron is because once you start getting into the 60s, which is the neighborhood, he's been residing in, that's an entirely different extreme, right? He's at 62.3, 61.3% faceoffs last year or the last three years. But most importantly, to me, he's 65% on the power play. Yeah. And I think that situational ability is huge because we talk about how no team runs better set plays off the draw in the offensive zone than they do. And I think part of that is having the confidence that you know that he's probably going to win the draw.

So you can design these set plays and know that, okay, once we get it, we're going to run it, as opposed to being a true 50-50 puck where it's like, who knows what's going to happen here? It's like, I think the Bruins at the start of every power play go into it expecting to be able to run their best play within five seconds of that first draw, right? And I think that's such a luxury for them to be able to have. And that's what makes him such a threat. And I think that's also a big reason why, amongst many other reasons, they're always one of the best special teams teams in the league, right? Like power play, penalty kill.

It's because they're starting a lot of these plays off in optimal position to do whatever's next, and they have the plays to do so. Yeah. I think his faceoffs in that sense are properly rated, right? Because like, not only is he winning 60 plus percent. If you look at this year, he's in terms of total faceoffs, taken, he's third in the league. So there you go.

I mean, you're obviously starting with the puck so much more than not. And then you have the chemistries we've talked about with, you know, Marsha knowing where to go off the draw, Posternak knowing where to go. Smart offensive players like Lynn Tullman-McCaboy, knowing where to go, Grizzlick, same thing. So it's just, it's a huge advantage for them. And then, you know, the confidence, too, of knowing that if you do mess up, you know, there's a giveaway, you know, you need a little bit of,

mark to make a big save. Well, okay, now you're in the defensive zone. And there's a good chance that if Bergeron doesn't win that defensive zone draw, he's at least going to make it so you have a chance of getting the puck out of the zone. I love it. Matt, I think we got to take a break here. But I think we did our due diligence here on Bergeron. I think we did injustice.

I hope that, you know, for such a perfect hockey player, it's tough. There's always much more meat that we left on the bone. But I think we did a good job. I'll let you plug some stuff here before we sign out. What have you been working on? Where can people check you out? All that stuff, because it's been so long since we had here on the show. Yeah, I write for the Boston Globe.

You know, I'm with the Bruins all season long and, you know, pretty much every practice, every game. Covering them in some form. Also writing the Sunday notes column, which covers the league. I like the kind of stuff that's behind the scenes, you know, the kind of the little stuff that kind of humanizes of the game. I really like to dig into that in that column especially, but I'm also on Twitter for now where I like to throw out kind of little fun quotes and things like that that I pick up

along the way. You know, if you want to know the personalities of the ruins, I think I'm a pretty good resource for that. And that's, yeah, that's about it for now. Well, this is a blast, man. I'm glad we've finally got to do this again, and we're certainly going to have you back on sometime on the road. So until then, take care and we'll chat soon. absolutely man thanks for having me all right we're back here with more on the Hockey Ptio cast we say goodbye to our pal mat porter

and now we're being joined by Sean Shapiro in his place instead for the part two of today show Sean you got big shoes to fill but other than that added pressure that I just put on your plate what's going on not much man I don't know I guess we won't spoil anything but we're we delayed recording for this

to get to the to watch the first half of the first Canadian World Cup game. Yeah. 86? Yeah. I'm hopped up, man. I've had a lot of coffee.

I've been, I've already been podcasting today. So I'm excited. I'm excited to chat with you. I'm just excited in general. Got a lot of energy flowing through the body right now. That's good. That's good.

I've got the on here in Detroit area. We got Thanksgiving or as you guys call it Thursday tomorrow. And I've got a. Yes, I've got a brisket going on the smoker right now, so it'll be a good day in the Shapiro household too. I love it. All right. Well, here's the plan for today.

You and I are going to, because you've written about this recently, about the connection between Lindy Ruff and this year's version of the New Jersey Devils, who are currently riding a 13 game heater, as Jack Hughes so eloquently put it. And the 2015-16 Dallas Stars, which holding a spot near and dear to my heart. where do you want to get into this conversation? Because obviously the connection between Lindy Roth there and sort of how both teams really have, you know,

especially started out strong, burst onto the scene, have captured people's attention and imagination with how they play offensively. Like you can definitely see the parallels between the two. Yeah, I think kind of that part right there is one of the, I think one of the similarity things.

I think there's the thing that was, I, you look back and you forget, I think kind of like in-game win streak for New Jersey makes it feel much like the 13 game, the heater to use the appropriate, the appropriate terminology. Yes. It really makes it feel like what New Jersey is doing is different in a way just because you win 13 a row, you get all excited about it and everything like that.

But New Jersey is 16 and 3 after 16 and 3 after 19 games, the 2015, 16, 16 Dallas Stars, or four actually after 19 games. So pretty much pretty similar almost the exact same point just instead of having being three and three and then winning 13, it was a couple other a couple other things sprinkled in there. And it's something where you're watching New Jersey play. They're fun, they're exciting.

You see Lindy Ruff being the coach. And as someone who kind of saw something up close and with this in Dallas and you saw that with the team and we were all hoping even though Dallas lost in the second round that you're like a whole team that could become a copycat team

where people play the game this way and everything like that. And then just two, basically within two and a half seasons, Dallas is now became one of the most boring teams on ice and want to live in the moment. I'm someone who likes to live in the moment and be happy about things.

But at the same time, you can't help just both. because of the start and the man behind the bench and how they're looking, part of me just always became, it was always like, should I appreciate, I didn't want to not appreciate what the devils are doing, but also part of me was like, I don't want to get burned again, right? Like, I don't want to get burned again that this is a, that this is, that this, what happened to Dallas is what happened in New Jersey.

And so to me, I think it's a fascinating that I asked myself, I have some, after digging in a little bit more, I think I have a little bit of a couple more answers, but that's why I wrote the piece about it this week, just because there's some key tenants that are very similar, and there are some things that are different. Well, here's my question to you. Did we ultimately really get burned by that first iteration? Like, I guess, you know, the way it played out over time, certainly, I think, framed our perception of it. the team started 22, 5, and 2 that season under the Stars Day.

They finished with 109 points, which was second in the NHL. They were third in goal differential. Because of the NHL's stupid playoff system, they wound up playing the team who was third in points that season in round two. So I think that's an important piece of context. And they lost in seven and clearly like the game seven stink bomb at home where they basically like might as well not have showed up to the rank that night, leaves a sour taste in your mouth.

I view that though. I understand the ultimate end goal is to win the Stanley Cup when you fall short, especially in that fashion. And then things unravel that quickly like heading into the next season and all that. And you don't have anything to show for that run. Certainly I get that. I view that as like a very good season though, right? Like that and especially.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was a, it was a good fun season. And it's something where. And I think kind of look back at it in hindsight, it becomes more so a question of you would take that season. If I could offer you that season, you would definitely take that season back. You would do that. The biggest issue in Dallas became that should have been a building block. It should have been, it should be the, okay, well, hey, this will be of a continued era of this in Dallas.

this will be something that goes to step two. And okay, you know what, they lost, but they lost to St. Louis in that game seven. But you know what? Let's get some better goaltending and get some better goal shore up there. And all of a sudden, we win the cup in two to three years from now playing the style. That's what it should. And that's the biggest kind of lesson for me from Lindy Ruff time in Dallas is I think he took lessons.

from that Dallas and how things kind of fell apart. And I think he's applied some of them to this New Jersey team initially already. I mean, obviously, but applied some of those right away so he can have a better test. And I think the devil's organization as a franchise, and it's not a Lindy Rough thing, this is the Harris Blitzer Sports Entertainment Group, need to make lessons from to look at the mistakes, Dallas made, Dallas ownership made and being kind of

overreactionary to we got beat up by the St. Louis Blues, so we must become the St. Louis Blues. That was something where I think at some point, New Jersey will lose a game again. At some point, allegedly. Allegedly. At some point, they will

and of course, you know what, it'll happen to like, like, let's, I'll pick it. It'll be like a Carolina team or that's a bad example. Like, it'll probably be like it'll probably be like Florida or something like that and like they'll lose two to one they'll get goalied or something like that and then the first commentary be it was oh well New Jersey needed to be tough at some point that's that's gonna come um one and and

and when that franchise and ownership needs to remember like look how much fun you were this is just that that's all that is just it's one game you're where the where you're going and the name of the game is entertainment and the devils are entertained So I have a question for you about I have a question for you about Lindy because I remember that year I think that was the first season that I actually started the PDO cast

and during that run at the start of the year where they were winning a lot of games and taking the league by storm I remember I had Mike Johnson on the podcast and he had I guess he was broadcasting a game for them at the time

and so he had like spent some time around the team and got to watch their practice and like sit in on one of their video meetings or something or whatever and talking to people and he was blown away I remember at the time by sort of the coaching style or what they were enforcing in terms of like, you know, most coaches when you have a video session with your players, you're showing them stuff they messed up at in the last game, right?

You're like, all right, you messed up this. This was a blown assignment. Okay, we can't do this, this and that. And you're sort of focusing on the negatives to try to weed that out of their system. And instead, what Lindy was doing was much more like, all right, this is good. Yeah, we want to do more of this. and they were showing like positive plays they were making especially offensively and they were really just hammering that home and trying to trying to do what they were doing well already

even better as opposed to working on the negatives or trying to kind of fix or cover for their weaknesses and I wonder I mean obviously a lot of time has passed since then yeah do you do you think like that was a reason for both of the success and also where things went potentially wrong because they were so one-sided or I don't know what the question I have here, but I'm kind of curious because it was so different compared to what you hear from a lot of coaches. Yeah, and I think it's becoming a little bit more common now in coaches. You still see a lot of guys, hey, we're fixing from mistakes. But I think there are certain, there have become more coaches that teach from the,

let's do this and kind of try to lead rotation to the player of obviously, hey, we're not reiterating this fact because they went wrong and you and let's reinforce the positive. Lindy's kind of communication and coaching style with Dallas and from, I haven't heard

anything different about it with New Jersey and it's the it's the compliment sandwich of coaching right? Like it's the compliment sandwich where you lead with hey, you did this great let's work on this a little bit. You did this great. And it's like

It's one of those things where when things are going really well and you think about the two things you did great and you keep doing them, but that kind of delivery can be the drawback risk with that delivery is if sometimes the middle part of that compliment sandwich is so important that it's getting lost by Aiden and the outro, all of a sudden you're kind of taking, you're running into, you're running into an issue. there. And so it was a, I think it worked. I think it's a style that definitely works, but you have to have, you have to have a bad guy. Like, like, you have to have a, you have to have like, it can be, your, your head coach can be that guy. You can, but you need to have one guy on your, who's willing to be kind of that, that bad guy who can, it's funny. Like, I just did something, I was thinking about this because I did something about this today on the Red Wings coaching staff, just kind of the dynamics of that coaching staff because of the fact that matters is the Red Wings coaching staff is not available to the media.

So I had to kind of go ask the players for his and everything like that. And it was kind of interesting where Ugner kind of plays that role of the, hey, we need to peer, where we need to do more here. Like he's the guy who kind of, not the fall guy, but he's the guy who kind of, like willing to be like the strict parent on the coaching staff. Right. And I think you need that if you're going to be this teach only from the positives. And you should teach from positives.

I think you should, but you also have to have either there, either some, either that, that mode yourself that you can switch to or have another assistant coach who has enough authority to be able to like be the bad guy and correct that way. And I don't know if that's the, I, I truly think, Lend, time in Dallas fell apart more so from things more out of his control than that. But I think that's something where the players ran into even more. The players kind of things went bad. It's sometimes harder to teach from the positive.

But I think a lot went out of Lindy's control too, which is kind of one of those things where you're a Devils fan and listening to this, I would take this all as a positive because I think the devils are in a much better spot to get through whatever rocky part comes. Dallas was because I believe their defensive structure is better. I believe their goaltending at least as a chance to be better. And I also believe that you have an ownership group that is, and this is a key point I make, because I think people always forget about this.

You have an ownership group who is a sports ownership group, not a hockey ownership group, where the Harris Blitzer Group, they also won the Philadelphia 76ers. They own a part of Crystal Palace in the English Premier League. They are not a team, a group of owners that only care about hockey. And owners that only care about hockey tend to be the ones that to be a little more hands-on. And I want the team in this. Chris Blitzer, basically, they want to like, okay, we want a team that sells tickets. And we want a basketball team that sells tickets.

We want a soccer team that sells tickets. And then they let the hockey people do the hockey things. And for all of those reasons, if you're a devil fan right now, you'd be thrilled because I think the stakes that were made from not allowing 2015-16 Dallas stars to become more of an era I think can be avoided in New Jersey. Well, we've already seen that, I would argue, because how many organizations would have gone through this life cycle, the Devils already went through where the running joke for the past three years or whatever was, oh, the New Jersey Devils just won the offseason

again. And then the games would start playing and they'd be an utter disappointment and all the same things would keep happening poorly. And some of it was bad luck, right? Like they think they bring in a goalie to supplement Mackenzie Blackwood and Corey Crawford. And then he decides and he retires before he even plays a game for them. Then Jonathan Bernier and he gets a debilitating hip injury like a couple games into his New Jersey Devil's career.

And so part of it was bad luck. But also, as you mentioned, we've seen NHL organizations who are run very irrationally kind of switch on the fly when things don't work out. And so after one or two years of disappointment, it's like, all right, well, this clearly isn't working. Let's totally change course here. And instead, they've really seen this process through for the most part and are now finally reaping the rewards of it. So I think the patience pays off. The other point that I would make the difference is, you know, I think it's easy to point to Cari Lettman and Antonymi that season, which was their battery in that and say, well, that

clearly wasn't good enough. And they were 27th and say percentage throughout the regular season, right? And so it's clear that that wasn't a strength. But it's funny when you look back at their on evolving hockey, both those guys pretty much played to their expectation. Like generally, when you see 27th and save percentage, you'd expect, wow, the expected goal saved above average must be, or a goal saved above expected must be really in the negative. And they were both pretty much neutral. And that's because while it was the best offensive team, they were essentially sacrificing everything defensively to get there.

And so all of their defensive metrics were pretty poor. And that's not something we're necessarily seeing with this year's version of the New Jersey devils. It's only 20 games. We'll see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're clearly, I'd still say their strength is being young and fast and attacking off the rush. And sometimes that's going to lead to rush chances against. But so far, defensively,

only the hurricanes give up fewer shots against. And no team gives up fewer high danger chances or expected goals against than the devils, which is remarkable considering what they also do offensively. So it's a great environment for Vitek Vanacheck and whoever is going to be their goal. And if they can keep up anything resembling that, I just think structurally it's so different than what that Dallas Stars team was. You know what I mean?

100%. And that's a big thing. Like I picture the, you remember the, you remember the Dallas stars of that time and you remember they were exciting not just for what they did, but for there was all, you were almost guaranteed to see a two on one rush going the other way within the first five minutes of the game. Like it was just almost like clockwork. You'd be like, okay, at some point you're going to see a two on run rush going the other way and you're going to see either Alex, you're probably see Alex Golgowski sliding across his belly as the guy tries to sauce. surpass, tries to solve over his shins.

So you knew that was going to happen in five minutes of the game. And New Jersey doesn't give up. New Jersey is exciting because of what New Jersey does. They're not exciting because of what could happen to them, but only, but purely because of what they're doing with the puck,

as opposed to the Dallas team was so much of, they were exciting because of what they did, but also you're like, oh, at any point, they could be, it could go the other way, just just like, It was, and I think New Jersey is a great example of you talk about a coach and you look at a guy who, I don't know how much Lindy would be willing to admit this, but I think Lindy learned a lot from that. And I think Lindy added more structure to what he wanted because he went from,

Lindy went from being in Buffalo, wherever where his plan was, okay, I have Dominic Hachick to going to Dallas. And I think he kind of finally found a bit of that. I think he learned and he found that balance. And I also wonder if him being an assistant coach with the Rangers and kind of taking a step back to be able to reassess and think about his approaches, I would imagine that probably put this team in the spot they're in now just because it's something where he's different. And he's also, he's still the same guy in general.

It's a funny Lindy Rough story. I saw him about three weeks ago when New Jersey was in Detroit. I had a pretty colorful tie on and he told me he told me it was a little bit too loud and interrupting our interview. So he's always a, he's always been a good guy that way too. Well, here's a thing. Regardless of what, like the personnel he's working with is very good. Like this is a good collection of players. So I do want to know that.

You know, when we're talking about kind of lessons that you can take from past teams, though, I was thinking about that 2015-16 Stars team because do you remember what their big trade deadline acquisition was? That was the, I have that right in my head. That was the shot blocker, right? Chris Russell. That's the human shot blocker. The whole we have, we must, we must block more shots because, whatever reason, we must block more shots. Well, so here's the thing.

So that deadline, I remember specifically because they were linked to Dan Hammeuse, who was not prime Dan Hamus at that point of his career, but was still a good defenseman, in my opinion. And the Canucks were going nowhere that year. And he was an impending unrestricted free agent. And Jim Benning decided not to trade him at the deadline, even though he was going to walk in free agency for nothing. Because out of principle, really, he felt like other GMs were trying to steal him for or nothing and he needed to assert himself as you can't push me around, which was hilarious.

And Dan Hammey's wound up, I believe, signing with the stars that summer and spent a couple years playing for the stars. And I do wonder that crossroads moment of not that Dan Hamme used at that point of his career would have made that big of a difference, but it was such a signal for me that like, oh man, this is not what I would do with this team in identifying Chris Russell as the player that this is going to push this team over the top as the upgrade at the trade deadline. And I remember I had Elliot Freeman on my podcast that night after the trade deadline. And he was like, I know what the analytics say about Chris Russell, but Jim Nill assured me that, you know, their internal numbers like him a lot more on this and that.

I remember just being like, all right, I'm excited to see how this plays out and we know the rest. But yeah, like there's those crossroads moments like that. I think like feeling the need to not necessarily pivot, but try to diversify yourself or whatever. and then in theory you're adding a different type of player but that player doesn't make sense and actually kind of makes you worse or the opportunity cost of acquiring them you could have gotten someone better that would have helped you more i think like a lesson like that is very important for this devil's team and i like what they did this off season for example right like they added players with different skill sets and and andrew palat who has been hurt and john marino but they're also fitting in much more with what the devils want to be and want to play like as opposed to adding someone just because of whatever skill sets that we think they need covers their gap, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's,

it's, it's something where it's kind of, it's very, I'm just deep of a thinker, but it's funny because this comes to mind for me. There's, there's kind of, there's some old piece of literature.

I think it might even be like the Sun Zoo thing or whatever. It's like there's the saying where it's like, when you reinforce one flank, you're weakening the other or something like that. And that's kind of what, and that's kind of New Jersey, what Dallas did where they were like, okay, we're going to take assets to reinforce this element and then weakened another part of the game. And that is, I think that's another thing.

If you're New Jersey, like this team, go with this team, win with this team. Don't think, okay, we got to go, we got to go make a trade for, I mean, got trade today, so it won't, it won't happen. But we don't like a trade for Reeves tomorrow. Right. Yeah, well, I think, yeah, a key lesson is I do believe that these windows to compete for young teams come a lot quicker than you expect or than you think. Like, I just reject the notion that you have to take your lumps or you have to lose in the playoffs and you have to get that better an experience before you can take the next step. Like, if you have good players, you should be going for it. And I remember, I think back to the 2017 version of the Toronto Maple Leafs,

when they had Austin Matthews, William Nealander, Mitch Marner, all on entry-level contracts. And so they had this cap space to play with for like one or two seasons. And they spent all of it on Patrick Marlowe and Ron Hainsey, who were like in their mid to late 30s because they felt like that supplemented this group. And instead, they probably should have been ultra-aggressive and even using that cap space to bring in another really good player in the prime of their career to help them over the time.

You know, instead they felt like they needed to take kind of gradual steps instead of just going all in. And I think if you have a really good team like this, like not that you should be trading all of your first round picks and everything at the trade deadline just to try to win a cup this year. But there's no reason to suggest that you can't kind of have your cake and eat it too in terms of they have the runaway, right? They have Jack Hughes and Nico Heeshire signed long term. They're going to get Brad signed whatever this summer, whatever he costs. So there's years ahead. but they can still kind of expedite that process and go for it this season as well in a in a calculated manner. Yeah.

They should treat the roster management in the long term look of it the way it's, I mean, I actually know what it's a perfect example. Look how Canada came. Obviously, they missed the penalty kick, but look how Canada came out and played in the first half. You don't need to be experienced. You don't need to be experienced. You don't need to have been there before to go out and play a certain state. style or to do something. You don't have to,

no one says you have to, quote, unquote, earn the opportunity to win. That's just a fun thing that people like to say after they lose. Like, it's, you don't have to do it. And hopefully New Jersey keeps doing that because they're fun to watch. And once again, I go back to the fact to where we need a team like this to win.

We need more teams like this to win because it creates more cuts, and it's a copycat league and hockey becomes more fun in general. So, yeah. Yeah, I love watching this team. They're really fun. even if they start losing games here or there and they're not just going to win every single one. I'm in on this team. I think what they've shown in terms of the process is very legit.

So if things change, they will readjust their opinion. But for now, the way they're playing and all the numbers they're posting, I think, totally pass both the eye test and the numbers test. All right, Sean, we're going to get out of here. Keep watching. Keep watching soccer. I'll let you plug some stuff. Where can people check out your work? Yeah, I got this.

Obviously, you and I have done some work, been fun. We've done some work together over at EP Rinks. We've got some stuff there. I've also got the substack going. Got a story coming over the next couple, actually, where it's Red Wings related, but I thought it was interesting, where I've got a story coming on the dynamics of the card games on the team playing, where how various guys, you and I last week we talked about kind of players don't realize

what's interesting. So you find, tell them that they're interesting. And I've got a story coming on that where how groups of Detroit Red Wings playing cards on the plane and how it brings the team together. And I'll have that up on the subsidy this week, which is Shapshots. And I got it on the Twitter. It's on Twitter and at Sean Shapiro. And luckily, I can still plug that platform.

And as I can still plug that platform, it's on Twitter. I love it. All right, man. Well, thanks for taking the time. It was a blast catching up with you. We're going to have you back on again soon. Enjoy that brisket. And yeah, thank you to the listeners for listening to the Hockey PDO cast here on the Sportsnet Radio Network.