The Hockey PDOcast - The Calgary Flames deep dive

Episode Date: November 9, 2022

Kent Wilson joins Dimitri on the PDOcast as the pair run through an in-depth look at the struggling Calgary Flames.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

dressing to the mean since 2050 PEDEOCAST with your host, Dmitri Philipovic. Welcome to the hockey PDO cast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich, and joining me on today's episode of the show is my good buddy. Kent Wilson, Kent. What's going on, man? Not much, just enjoying minus 30 weather here in Calgary. Nice, nice. Well, hopefully the heat of our takes today will help warm me up a little bit.

The flames are mired in a 04 and 2 stretch here recently, and, you know, it's a critical. how quickly things can change in this league because you and I started planning this about almost two weeks ago or ten days ago or so now and at the time you know I think I believe like it was right after that penguin's game which was their last win things were looking pretty good there were certainly some signs of concern especially in terms of how their top players were producing but for the most part it was kind of what you'd expect from this flames team and I think we were expecting to head into this with a pretty positive vibe and positive tenor about our conversation and then obviously things in Calgary have gone off the rails a little bit in the

meantime. Yeah, never boring, right? Five and one is one of the best starts they've ever had. And then ever since, as you say, the wheels have come off the bus a little bit. But honestly, it was the first three games of the season where they looked like they hadn't missed a beat. They were completely dominant in pretty much every facet of the game. And then it started to wobbled around that time frame and it's it's been all bad news ever since. Yeah, I mean, you know, we certainly should mention the schedule logistics so far

if I'm sure kind of played a part in trying to find that rhythm and yeah, those three games is the perfect start to the season where not only did they win all three games but look who they beat the avalanche, they beat the Oilers and they beat the Golden Knights and certainly looked apart in all three, right? And that's, you'd figure the three teams they would probably have to go through in the Western Conference if they want to take that next step and

compete for a Stanley Cup this season. And so, yeah, certainly coming off with that three-game stretch, I was like, all right, this is great. And I guess, you know, part of what's tricky to reconcile here is I think once we start talking here about Hubert O and the top line and some of the new players they brought in, the question of chemistry and all these players kind of coming together on the fly and making it work and getting used to each other is going to come up quite a bit and it's going to be a recurring theme, but you'd think that would have presented itself right out of the gate and instead the first three games are actually the best ones they've played the season. Yeah, the irony is as you noted, like that first line was the only issue in the first

three games. They definitely weren't dominating shots. They weren't getting any points. They were scoring on the power play, but the rest of the team looked like the Sutter Calgary Flames of last year. And, you know, the funny thing is the top line players are starting to kind of play out of that funk, but the rest of the team has kind of fallen apart in the meantime. So it's, uh, it's one of those things like last year the Flames watching that team, that is a club where a lot of things went right all at the same time. And in their last, you know, six, eight, six, seven games, it looks like a team where just everything is going wrong all at the same time. Yeah. Okay, well, let's, let's start this conversation by addressing what I think is the elephant in the room,

which is John Nathan Hubertow's relatively inauspicious start. to the season. He has two 5-1-5 points in roughly 140 5-1-5 minutes of play so far. One of them was against the Sabres where, as I've noted in the past, the puck just kind of bounced randomly off an official's leg and right to him in front of the net, and he passed it over for an assist. The other one is an assist in the most recent game he played against the Islanders, which was much more Jonathan Hubert-O-esque, where he passed it in nicely kind of, it was either through the legs or under a defender's stick right to Michael Backland. in the slot and he buried it and that's more of what you want to see.

There's a number of different ways to take this. How concerned do you think we should be about the fact that the rate at which he's attempting shots himself and generating chance is basically every single shot metric you look at from an individual perspective for him is significantly down so far this season on a permanent basis, especially from last year where he kind of peaked in all those categories. I believe he's got only 18, 5-on-5 shot attempts in his 11 games so far. And the reason why I kind of frame it as how concerned we should be about just that factor is because, you know, we can talk more about the passing in a second, but he's always going to profile as more of a past first playmaker, right?

You're never going to necessarily going to look at him for shot volume. But I do believe that in the NHL, if you really want to be a potent offensive force, you at least got to keep defenders honest a little bit by at least presenting the idea that you could be a dual threat. And so far, it seems like he hasn't been able to really generate anything himself. and I wonder if we should be concerned about that beyond just all the other stuff that's gone wrong. I mean, to some degree, you do want the primary weapon in your offensive attack to be dangerous and all facets of the game.

The funny thing is, is my concern was actually expressed in Elias Flynn-Holmes' individual shot metrics when I was looking at. Now, he's sort of starting to come out of the funk, but for in the first 10 games, I think that's the worst hot. I've seen out of Lynn Holm during his time here in Calgary at least. And he was generating less shot attempts at even strength than anyone on the team as the

top line center for Jonathan Schubertow. I mean, Zadarov had twice as many shot attempts at even strength than Wendholm. And when you're the trigger man on a top line with one of the best passes in the league, that's really concerning. Now, all that said, these players have really proven over time that they're much better than this. And it could just be new teammates, new coach, at least for Huberdo. And it's just going to take an acclamation period. I think back to actually Doug McAllerton when he landed in Calgary.

And he had a pretty good career here despite the way it ended. But his first half season, and especially the first 20 games, were horrendous. He looked terrible. So sometimes it might just be a settling in issue. Now, if we see this continuing indefinitely, if 20 game mark, 40 game mark, then yeah, Calvary's in big trouble. Yeah, Linholm has definitely seemed more involved, especially offensively, the past two games from what I've seen. And I think it'll come around. The point is worth making. like timing really is everything not only in life but also in the NHL and I can't help but wonder like how much he would have been paid if he had been an unrestricted free agent this past summer where he's coming off a year where he scores 42 goals which is easily a career high he finished second and Selke voting all of his metrics were we're through the roof playing on that top line and instead now he's kind of stuck on this deal where he's making only 3.85 million in real dollars this year. 4.85 next year and then he'll be 29 when he's up for a new deal. And, you know, hopefully if

you're him, you're going to bounce back a little bit here, at least a little bit in the meantime, and the cap is going to rise by then. So you'll be compensated for it to some degree. But, man, if I were here, I'd just be looking at that and wondering, especially if you look around and basically everything or everyone around him, not only his line mates from last year, but all the new players that have come to the flames as well have been compensated accordingly because they were productive of last year and we're up for a new deal. And he's kind of the only one that's stuck playing on this previous deal. It's kind of a good team, team-friendly contract that he was on.

Yeah, it's unfortunate for the player because he arrived in Calgary as a 40-40-45-point guy from Carolina. And so he didn't have the history to kind of demand that big contract. I think a lot of the momentum will carry through to his next deal unless he completely falls off the rails here. It's been a bad, obviously, start to the season, but, you know, he has been a high-quality player here ever since. He's definitely going to play with Hubernaud. If that doesn't work out, he's going to get his ice time and opportunity.

So, yeah, the issue for the flames, I think, is when his deal's over, I don't know if they can retain him. And, you know, we're starting to talk about a new contention window in Calgary. So how long is that actually going to be, given what the roster looks like? Yeah, that's fair. I guess depending on how much the cap rises by then, as you could say that Michael Backlin himself will also be coming off the books that same summer, I believe. And so it's possible that, you know, Lynn Holm, if they decide to keep him, especially given the age gap between those two, then he would kind of soak up a lot of Backlin's money that's coming off the books. But let's stick with Hubert O here, because, you know, I thought the most recent game that he played against the Islanders, he missed the game against the Devils that they just played last night with an upper body injury. But I thought that game against the Islanders was the most promising one we've seen from him so far that he kind of was actually looking like Jonathan Hubertow again, especially in the first period of that game. There were about four or five times where he got the puck into the slot, was actually looking dangerous in the offensive zone as a passer.

And that's a lot more like the player that we've kind of grown accustomed to seeing, and especially the player he was last year when he was as productive as he was. I do genuinely wonder how much of this are the struggles for him so far are purely just needing a time to establish a connection with some of these players because definitely it just he looks so out of rhythm to me like when do you think like i i don't remember ever seeing this number of passes passes from him just kind of like handcuffing teammates throwing it into their feet maybe a tad bit behind there was this play against the devils on saturday night at home where he's skating through the neutral zone a defender hits him with a breakout

pass and he kind of bibles it and then it jumps over a stick he falls trying to recover it And then the devil just take the puck go back the other way and get an opportunity. And it just, it doesn't look at all like the player that we've kind of grown to know. And that just makes me think that part of this is, you know, maybe it's being overly glass half full and kind of just not looking at some of the red flags and warning signs. But I have to think that part of this is kind of like an acclimation process. Yeah, I think there's two parts to it. And one is what you said. It's, you know, new team, new teammates.

And it's not just him as sort of the broken leg on that line. Like I said, Elias Lindholm has looked nothing like the player. He's been in Calgary for years here. And, you know, Linholm played hundreds of games with control as his left winger and probably over 100 games with Kachuk as his right winger. So, you know, it's just going to be very different for those players for a little while, right? So you can't really say when it's going to click. but the other issue is the whole team

has kind of struggled at a lot of that stuff, especially after the first three games. Justin Bourne recently published a very useful article on Calgary struggles on sportsmen I believe and he went through their transition and their passing

and their bottom of the league in terms of how often they're passing how much time they're spending in the offensive zone and so like the rush offense across the board in Calgary is just off. And the whole team is kind of in this funk right now.

And like Huberdo and like Lynn Holm, we watched Sutter coach a team that was much more effective at all this stuff last year. So it's, you know, they've stepped off a cliff for whatever reason to start the year. Everyone looks very frustrated. But for Flames fans, we know that all these players should be better

and this coach knows how to coach a team that does these things well. Yeah. Yeah, no, Boren was, he hit the nail on the head of that one, way too many one and duns that I've seen, especially for a team that really is going to get you with their volume, right? Like the top line was so efficient at turning shots into goals last year. But for the most part, when the flames are at their best, it's these stretches where it feels like they're almost getting like 15 shots in a row before the other team even gets their next one, where they're just peppering you with chance after chance and just basically playing downhill. And instead, they're getting into their zone, getting a shot. it's generally not a great one because the passing has been so off for everyone that

it's not really east-west or creative it's kind of more of a direct straight line to the goalie where he can probably stop it and then it's going back the other way and the other team's just getting a chance and that's so unlike the darrell sutter team that we've seen over the past year and a half or so yeah the team when they really hit their stride last year had this great one two punch so it was the top line which was actually pretty much good at everything you have a goodro who's a transition wizard he's great at gaining the zone. He's great at backing people off. Just that's what he does. So they had really good rush offense, but they could play in zone too. And then you had the backland line with Manjapani

and Coleman that served the second line last year. And they are great puck hounds. They get the puck in deep. They cycle it. They make your life miserable, right? So you had one line that was really good at everything, but rush offense especially. And the other line that could do that great sort of in zone work. And they just don't have either of those things. right now. Another guy I want to mention is Andromar Japani. He's also going through one of the worst 10 game segments I've ever seen out of him. So it really isn't just the top of the roster. It's, or at least just the first line, there's problems everywhere right now. I'm curious what you think about this as a combo then. We've seen him for about 20 or 25 minutes so far.

And I guess it doesn't make the most sense because both guys are natural left-winger. But I did think that having Mangipani play with Huberto would help. alleviate some of these concerns where, you know, on paper, I think the idea of that top line of Hubert O. Linholm and Tofoli makes a lot of sense. It's three really good players. But you mentioned that the success that top line had last year for them, and I think such a big part of it, above all else, was Johnny Goodrow's ability to actually threaten an opposing defense with his speed and his ability to attack quickly, right? And so you're backing up defenders, and then all of a sudden that's creating these passing lanes where you can go east-west, you can get creative with him and Kach.

And if you have this top line constructed the way it is right now, as smart as all three of those players are, I don't think any opposing defenses is too worried or too bothered by the idea of them beating them with their speed or with their pace, right? It's much easier to sort of get into a defensive shell and prepare for whatever they're going to do. And they still might wind up passing the buck around the offensive zone, creating a chance, kind of in a more methodical approach. But I'd like to see some more pace on that line, especially with Hubert-O, to open up some of those passing lanes and force defenders to sag off. Now, maybe the answer is the right winger that needs to be playing with Hubert O simply isn't on this roster right now and they need to go get him. Yes, that's possible and it's been talked about a lot in market since the summer, obviously. On paper, Manjapani makes a lot of sense to me on the top line because he's also a great sugar man,

great puck hound in the corners when he's on. And they have spent some time together, but the problem is the time they've spent together, neither player is playing the way he can or should. So there wasn't a lot of magic when they've been together so far, but a long term. I would like to see it when one or both players is actually playing at, you know, the level worth that are capable of. But, you know, beyond that, as you say,

the flames probably should be looking for another top nine forward, especially a top six right winger. Now, do they have the caps face and assets to do that? is the million dollar question. It is. I think they almost certainly have to if they're serious about competing this season. Because, you know, when you lose a player like Kubradorow, for example, for a game, like against the Devils, it's not ideal.

You're going to have to make it work. It's kind of concerning that it's like, all right, we're bumping Adam Zichkopf to the top line. Or it's, you know, when they were struggling for a couple games there, it's like, all right, let's experiment with throwing Milan Leitchitch here into the top six and see if you can get people going. And if those are your sort of breaking case of emergency options, I don't think that's necessarily very ideal for a potential Stanley Cup contender. So, yeah, I mean, the cap is a clear concern. They've already invested so many resources into this current roster.

They're going to have to get creative. And also, I guess, another complicating factor is they have so much future money tied up already in this group that taking on a good player and playing a premium for the military trade market that has a contract, kind of like they did with DeFoli last year, sounds great. I'm sure that they prefer that. That's the way Brad True Living has operated in the past, right? They don't really go for rentals, especially after what happened this past summer. I don't think they want that uncertainty hanging over their heads. I think they'd rather get a player who's going to be in Calgary for a couple years. But that all of a sudden becomes really tricky to figure out how that future money fits into this group as well.

Yeah, all their money players are signed for next year, except for Luchech. And even with him coming off the cap, I believe they've only got two or three million available to fill up the roster. So it is very challenging. And, you know, they've already spent a whole bunch of future draft picks, you know, building this roster as it is. They don't have an overly impressive sort of prospect covered right now. Maybe you can count the number of guys who would be coveted by their teams on one hand. But, you know, they've eaten a lot of their feed sock in terms of their future assets.

So it's going to be challenging from a lot of perspectives to add a quality top. six player this year. Yeah. Do you have anyone? Have you done any sort of fantasy, fantasy workshopping or fantasy booking for, like, who you'd like to see as a potential target or fit for that group? Having Patrick Kane is kind of a deadline rental idea.

If you can get Chicago to eat a whole bunch of that contract, I think, maybe. But, yeah, you start to put guys on a board, and then you start thinking, how do they acquire these guys and becomes a lot more difficult, right? Yeah. Okay, well, yeah, I think I didn't really have any other notes on Hubert O'er. I did want to say, like, listen, he's got a, what, 6.7 on a shooting percentage of 515 right now, and he's generally been like a 9 to 10 guy in the past.

So I'm not too worried. I think the goals will eventually come. I guess to put a bow on the top line conversation, though, I did want to note that I think one mistake I potentially and maybe others made after the office, season heading into this year kind of forecasting ahead and thinking okay how do they make this work with these all these new pieces i think maybe i underestimated just how pure the top line ran last year for them um you know like they outscored opponents 73 31 whatever five-on-five they finished fourth fifth and ninth and five-on-five goal scoring between the three of them but they also just had such a

high shooting percentage as well and i guess regardless of who took those spots and who came in or even if they brought back that entire top line, the results would probably look different than they did. And so maybe I think we just kind of collectively sort of, we just assume that, all right, yeah, you're bringing Jonathan Huberto, he sort of replaces what you're losing with Goodrow in terms of his playmaking. You're not really replacing Kuchuk on that top line. You're bringing in Cadry, giving you a bit more depth, but you think Huberto, Linholm, Tofoli, three good players, they'll make it work.

But maybe we did just kind of not properly account for just how good that top line was and how sort of impossible replicating anything resembling that success would be for them this season. Yeah, when I did some spots in the offseason with podcasts and stuff, people asked me, you know, how do you think this is going to go now that they've made all these moves? And I said, I have no idea. I've never seen an offseason like this where a team takes one of the best lines in hockey, you know, takes two of those players out, completely reforms the line. And as you know, the other thing I said was even if Goodrow and Kachuk came back,

They're probably not replicating that season just because... That's not how hockey works? Yeah. Yeah, everything went right for them. That is the best top line I've seen operating, covering the flames since I started writing about them in 2004 or something. And that's, you know, I covered Jerome McGillow for years. And I've never seen that dominant a line for the flames, and it's just probably

wasn't going to happen again. So, yeah, the expectations, you know, when all that stuff happened and what Your Living was able to do. out of it. You went from this terrible low, at least if you're a flames fan, to this new high. But yeah, the expectations of this first line, just again, being one of the best in a league is probably unrealistic. Well, I think it's kind of telling of how Daryl Sutter feels about it as well.

I mean, listen, those three together have combined for like one goal so far the season, if I-on-five when playing as a group. But, you know, last year he rode, and understandably so, given how. they were producing goodrook chuk and linholm to such a high degree in terms of the he was trying to get them out there whenever he possibly could and their five-on-five usage was you know a significant step up from basically everyone else on the team and this year you know cadre leads the team in terms of five-on-five usage and then after that it's basically everyone between second and like 10th or 11th is playing nearly the same amount like on any given night jonathan huerto might be playing as much as

Trevor Lewis, and not that that's necessarily ideal or something that I would recommend, but I think it's telling when a coach does that, how he feels about the players he has and how they're performing when he's basically just rolling those lines, and it's not because they're all playing so well. Yeah, there's a lot of message sending going on in Calgary land, I think, with Sutter right and now, and to be fair, I noted this in my Discord community the other day, like, usually you would be double-shifting your top six a lot. in a game like the New Jersey game or the New York game where it was close in the third period.

But the top of his rotation has not given him a lot this year. So he's, one, he's communicating to them that you need to be better. And two, you know, frankly, I think Michael Backland's been the most consistent forward on the club overall from start to finish this year. And it's, you know, it's, you know, Trevor Lewis has been one of the better players by underlying numbers, which is like, okay, what does a coach do in that scenario? Keenan used to coach here back in the day, and he just keeps throwing his horses on the ice no matter what, but Sutter is a different coach, right?

Yeah, here in my notes, I have just a bullet point, Michael Backland, most important flame question mark, and even he in a really important close game against the devil's recently got benched in the third period. Yeah, and that was weird. You can see, like, he didn't do anything in particular that seemed to warrant that. But you can see Sutter getting mad in real time here right now and frustrated. So he's doing things to try to get through, not to just to players, but I think the whole team. All right, Kent, we're going to take a quick break here.

And then when we come back, we've got a lot more flame stuff to discuss. So you are listening to the HockeyPedocast here on the SportsNet Radio Network. We are back here on the HockeyPedio cast with Kent Wilson doing our Calgary Flames deep dive. Kent, we've talked about the top line. we've talked about the forwards, I think, in general. Should we talk a little bit about Jacob Marks from here? Yeah, let's get into it. All right.

So each of his first two seasons with the Flames, the first one being an abbreviated 56 game schedule, he's played roughly 77% of the teams available games in each of those first two years. So far this year, the teams played 12 games. He started 10 of them, including both legs of a back-to-back they just played, understandably so, given the workload wasn't necessarily,

huge in the first game and you know there we just talked about how darrell sutter is trying to send a message how to take this team going it's clear that they wanted to have their number one goalie out there in new jersey now not that he was necessarily responsible for either of the losses by any means but i'm really curious to follow the usage patterns here because there was a lot made at the start of the year about how sutter wants to get valaradar out there for at least one game per week and i'm curious to see if they actually stick to that and what mark's final game total looks like at the end of the season. Yeah, I think they will stick to that, let's say, if things go according to plan,

meaning if they pull out of this skid and they become sort of one of the better teams in the league and they don't have to stress about points at certain points of the year. You know, yeah, Lidar can come in once a week and it shouldn't bother anyone. But you're already seeing that plan potentially going off the rails with the team struggling. and Sutter looking for solutions. So I think it really depends on how long this sort of issue continues in terms of their play in their win streak or lose streak as it is and how much better they get once they're to cover.

Yeah, well, I think it can be a bit of a tough sell when you're paying a goalie $6 million per year the way they are with Markstrom, especially long term. at the same time I really think playing him anything over I mean 55 as a top but I would honestly say even closer to 50 to me

would be an ideal number now that's tricky especially when you're losing games like this I understand but man I don't know I'm no Kevin Woodley here okay I'm not a goalie expert by any means but just from my sort of untrained eye

I don't think there's a goalie in the league that has a bigger disparity in their performance depending on fatigue level or how long right they are. Like when Markstrom is 100% and he's good to go, he is so kind of just like smooth and in control and all the pucks are just hitting him right in the chest and he just covers so much space in the net. And then all of a sudden when he starts getting a bit overwork, getting a bit tired, not only does the, his new risk pop up, but I feel like his technique gets so loose and he starts

making really bad decisions, like playing the puck, deciding to go out for joy rides at times. I I mean, I don't think there's a bigger disparity for any goalie between the two sides of it. And so playing him more than 50-ish games, I mean, I would say that probably for most goalies in the league. Like the starter should only be playing around 50. But I think in this case in particular, it might be tough to execute in reality. But on paper at least, I think they really need to be careful about how much they're using him this season. Yeah, if your aspirations are along, cup run, you don't want your starter kind of collapsing under the weight of his workload. in the first or second round in the playoffs, right?

So I've completely been on this track myself. I thought they played them too much last year. The team seems to trust Lidar, at least the org, does, because they just resign them. So it's, you know, unless you have to win the next game to make the playoffs type of stuff, they definitely should be sticking with, you know, we've got to play the backup at least once a week moving forward.

That's what makes it so crazy that he played 63. regular season games for them last year, considering how relatively set and in good position they were for a lot of the regular season. Like, I think in hindsight, I mean, it was easy to see it happening in real time and not necessarily if he had played 50 games, the second round result against Loyalers would have been any different. But it's tough to look at that and sort of reconcile the decision to play them as much as they did, knowing what we know.

Yeah, especially down the stretch, right? Calgary was pretty comfortable. So, you know, get your kid in there and let him get his legs and, and let your starter rest a little bit. I'm really curious. I mean, it kind of ties into that then, as you said, and we're talking about a team with Stanley Cup aspirations and how much they've committed to this group.

And it sort of ties into a bigger picture conversation I wanted to have with you about not only the roster construction approach that they've had here recently, but sort of whether they've given themselves enough runway or opened up enough of a timeline with this team because they've kind of done my least favorite roster building approach, which is committing a bunch of money and unrestricted free agency to guys in their late 20s, early 30s.

When you're, you know, we know it's an inefficient form of spending. You're probably playing a premium for less productive years as players go under decline. Now, they have a really good team right now. They had a really good team last year. It's tough to quibble with it, I think, considering the hand they were dealt this offseason, they came away from it looking pretty good regardless of these first 15 games or so. But long term, kind of what are your feelings about? sort of whether they've boxed themselves in here, whether the runway is long enough,

and sort of all of that roster building stuff. I honestly think they have to win in, you know, the next three years. They've got to win something. It might actually be the next two years, given, you know, the clock's taking a limhole. But, yeah, they're one of the oldest teams in the league right now. We've got a bunch of key guys who might start aging out sooner rather than later, back when Tann of even Markstrom's over 30 now. and, you know, the back half of Cadres and Hubertos deals, you know, their play's going to erode inevitably,

and the value of those contracts are going to erode. So, and there's nobody on the horizon to come in and start plugging holes. You know, if you lose backland, I guess you can hope Conor Zaire, he becomes a backland plug in the next couple of years. They've got Matthew Cornado, who's probably the best, the highest ceiling prospect in the organization. but there just isn't much. They've spent a lot of traffic coming, getting to this point. They've spent even more in the near future here.

So, yeah, I think the clock is, the contention window is two to three years at best. Do you have a note in a recent piece he wrote for your site that they haven't graduated a single player into the big club roster since 2018? Yeah, that was discovered by Mike Gould's rights for Flames Nation. It's been a big topic of discussion in market and online. discord a community as well. It's just the team has basically stopped looking at kids since Sutter arrived. You know, Shillington got in as a guy they seemed pretty ambivalent about, but he, you know, caught a break and got on the roster,

but absolutely nobody else has been given much of a look. Maybe Rizchka here and there, but Sutter seems pretty cool on him. They've got Matthew Phillips who's been one of the best HL players, probably the last three seasons. that he's scoring at a better-than-point-per-game pace right now. Jacob Peltier had one of the best HL rookie performances I've seen in the at least the Flames organization for years, and none of them were even really looked at at all.

So it's, yeah, they're, Sutter at least, in terms of how he's managing the roster, does not rate any of the prospects, and there isn't a lot of, there's basically no blue chippers in the organization right now. Man, that's tough. I mean, not that it's a unique thing to say about Sutter. I think it probably applies to the majority of NHL head coaches, right?

That's generally they operate. They trust veterans, guys, they've worked with before. They've heard of. They know and kind of feel more reliable and responsible. But for a team that's constructed the way they are, I mean, I mean, I think I've got them at about 77 million or so, or I guess almost 80 if you include Deube's deal, which I forgot in these calculations,

So around 80 million committed heading into next season in most of their key guys. Right now, if they were to make a trade to acquire one of these top six right-winger as we've been talking about, maybe a defenseman goes out, and all of a sudden it's kind of money-in-money-out situation. But for the most part, regardless of how much the cap goes up, there's not too much financial wiggle room here. And that's when you have a team that's constructed the way this is, it's almost imperative to have at least a few guys on the ELCs producing.

And they had that last year, right? They had Schillington playing for less than a million. they had on jip honey playing for less than a million all of a sudden you're paying monjip honey what five plus and that becomes an entirely different calculus and it's almost imperative that they find the next player like that now that's easier said than done but if they really want to have a shot at this beyond just this one season or so they have to do that yeah at the end of the day you know being the NHL GM is an efficiency contest right and you can't build a contending roster which has only at market or above market rates for all the players on it.

Just you're run out of money. So, yeah, it's going to be tough to plug holes if you're not at least auditioning players. We really saw it. You know, last year I can almost give the team a pass because they're also one of the healthiest teams in the league. And it's just half the time that's how kids kind of get their foot in the door because, you know, a veteran goes down for a couple weeks. kid comes up and you say, oh, you can actually play. But it was actually the year before that that annoyed me when they missed the playoffs

in the pandemic there. And they're kind of playing out the string. And they really didn't play any of the kids much. I think Maddie Phillips got one game. I think Balmacki got one game. And that was about it. And it's just like that was odd and silly to me. At least start to see if any of these guys have, you know, NHL.

can be NHLers, even down the stretch when you're just playing nothing games, right? So Valamaki really fell off the organization chart here. He played like he'd lost all confidence, gets picked up on waivers, and is now a regular out in Phoenix, and doing actually relatively well there. So it's that sort of stuff that can be death by a thousand paper cuts as you try to build a roster that is efficient from a cap perspective. Oh, it's funny you bring up that the shortened season because, yeah, it was sort of a lost year in the sense that they missed the playoffs and they were playing make-up regular season games against the Canucks while other playoff games were happening and it was a clown show for a number of reasons. But, you know, heading into last year, actually, the reason why I was so high on the flames and I had like Markstrom for Vesna, Daryl Sutter for Jack Adams, them to win the Pacific.

All of these were sort of like liens that I had because of the structure that they showed. to end that season. Like I thought it was a very encouraging once Darryl Sutter came in, came in once they sort of started playing the way he wanted them to play. All of their defensive numbers were through the roof and all these kind of performance indicators for them suggested that it was a really good team. And so heading into last year, I was like,

all right, if they can carry this over, they're going to be really good. And that sort of did happen. So it was encouraging to kind of see it from a test case perspective. But at the same time, you're right. Like, that would have been a good opportunity to be using players that you otherwise are unsure about. And instead, they sort of play.

played those games as if they were playoff games in a way. Yeah, it totally missed opportunity. And you're right, the flame started to play much better under Sutter. And one of the things he found was that top line, you know, the year before, not actually last year. So, you know, things started to click. But, yeah, it was, you know, last five, maybe even ten games was a lost opportunity to get some familiarity with some of their prospects and start seeing where they can, you know,

plug cheap money into the roster and not lose too much in terms of performance. Yeah, I guess, you know, I guess tree living didn't really have a choice, or I guess I should say I understand why they did what they did because this past summer at the start of it was such a nightmare with kind of this indecision hanging over their head and the idea of, okay, we could lose basically our two best forwards for nothing if we're not careful. And so I understand why he was quick to sign Uyghur, sign Hubert, a long term, commit the contract to cadre that he did. But now that I'm thinking about it, it's like, man, what? Was it a risk to be basically going all in in a group that you'd never seen play a single game together? All those guys are established players, so it's not necessarily an unknown. But it's so rare to see a team commit so many future dollars to a group of players that had never played a game together before. I guess Weiger and Hubert O had in Florida, but as a group in Calgary, I should say. Yeah, it was quite the gamble, absolutely. And you can tell that they kind of caught blinds up.

buy the Goudreau thing, and then Kachat comes off and requests a trade. And then they'd pull this major coup. And I don't think they wanted to risk organizationally losing one or both players to unrestricted free agency a year after doing that. So it was very much of the moment, but absolutely, it is quite the gamble to take. I haven't really taught. The reason why I'm kind of bringing this up, it's sort of old news now to rehashing the summer topics, but I haven't really had a chance to speak with you since, and we've got time here.

So I was kind of curious if you had been running the flames and you'd kind of been in the hot seat there, is that the tact you would have, or the direction you would have taken? Or would you have tried to kind of take a bigger picture of you in terms of future assets and players that, you know, are young and productive but cheaper and give you more flexibility? Or do you think it did make sense for them to kind of go with more of an established group like this and really just kind of doubled down on the veteran approach? Blue sky and just putting me, myself, in the big chair. I would have started rebuilding years ago, not even just last year.

Probably wouldn't have come to that. Probably at the end of that the pandemic season would have been where I would have pushed the button. Just given that the Goodro window was starting to close, the team didn't look that good. I probably wouldn't have hired Sutter even though he's done a pretty masterful job. upon his arrival, but you just see that, as I said, the clock is ticking. Now they've reopened the contention window a little bit with the major Kachuk trade this summer, but, you know, the team has to be as good or better than it was last year, and even last year it didn't get past the second round for any of this to make sense.

And if they miss that high bar, then things get really, really difficult pretty quickly here in the near future. Yeah, I guess it adds insult to injury that it happened to the Oilers in terms of losing to them in round two the way they did. But, you know, it's always tricky to overreact to one playoff series lost like that, right? And how the way they lost was in such dramatic fashion in terms of just basically after game one, just getting blitzed the way that they did. Did you view that as kind of, all right, there's a fundamental flaw here from the perspective? of our ability to match up here or to kind of get over that hurdle and we need to make a change on the fly or do you just kind of view it as a one-off? Obviously, you know, Kachuk and Goddrault's free agency status and wanting out influenced a lot of this. It's not like they retrieving and the flames chose to go this route.

But was kind of bringing you back and just rolling it over even an option based on how the season had ended in an ideal world where both guys were still under contract? I think it was their, yeah, that was probably their best option. The nut that Trillivings been trying to crack ever since the team exited its rebuild is, do we have a high-end talent to slay dragons? Meaning, you know, when they were really good in 1819, they got creamed by the emergent avalanche in the first round because Nathan McKinning went super new, like nuclear, right?

And then same thing happened in the second round. you got dry-sidal McDavid just, you know, pulling Globetrotter stuff in the second round. So it was, that's always kind of been the question they've been trying to answer, but that question got substituted with how do we keep the band together? Because that was an excellent season. You know, the second round, you had a goalie kind of fall all over himself. I think it was a lot closer than the five games that we saw.

And the team was good enough. If you tried to replicate that at least, that you could see them, you know, finishing near the top of the West and being a going concern, absolutely, in the playoffs. So, you know, when that didn't come around, now it was how do we continue to contend, and they answered that question with the Cachuk trade now. But now we still don't know if they have enough top-end talent

that they can, you know, get past an avalanche or even an oilers in the playoffs. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, I think that's a very good question. I guess that's why I brought up the idea of committing to this group before actually seeing it in practice, because all of a sudden, the way you've invested financially is under the presumption that, yes, it's different,

and now we have answered that question, but in reality, we haven't, and I think these first, high ever many games haven't done anything to inspire confidence that that is the case, right? So it's kind of a very tricky situation. Yeah, that's the nature of the anxiety in market, probably both in the offices in the flames building and for the fans, because it's, it is that underlying. You know, we didn't even know if we were good enough previously. We've changed out all these core pieces. Now we don't even know if this core is as good as the last one.

Yeah. All right. Well, Kent, we've been talking here for almost an hour now. Is there any other flames topics that you think are pressing? or worth discussing before we kind of go to the sign-out phase of the show? No, I don't think so. I mean, as I said, as the onset, it's never boring. Yeah.

I don't think they're going to be this bad moving forward. You know, the last few games, in this six-games kid, there's probably been three or four games where on a different night they win, and we're not having this conversation. But sometimes you just have those periods in the NHL where, you know, the other team's chance goes in and yours doesn't. That said, fundamentally, the flames looking at their underlying numbers are mediocre this year when they were top five in the league

across the board. So you can definitely tell that Sutter is more worried about that than just strictly the record right now, and he's going to be working on getting them back up to that level. Honestly, that's where they have to be if

to make any of this make sense. Yeah. Any, because, you know, we talked a lot about Huberto, Cadre. I didn't think it was that interesting to bring up just because he's been really good. And so it wasn't like in terms of nitpicking his game or breaking it down or dissecting it. It's like, I don't really have anything that thoughtful to add in terms of takeaways. Like, yeah, he's been, he's been their best player.

He's been really good. Is there any, any Weiger takes that you have so far now that you've seen him for about 12 or 13 games? Yeah, he's been, I think he's been their best defender overall. He's got the best underlying numbers, too. the dirty secret here in Calgary actually is the previous top pairing of Hannafin and Anderson have also been pretty miserable to start the year. So like Hubergerald, Linholm, Manjepani, there's all these guys at the top of the rotation who were great last year and just for whatever reason can't find it so far this year.

And it will be, you know, the flames will get back on their feet if that top pairing starts playing better too. Yeah. And they've been, you know, they started off. a bit slow kind of using them in, but they've been ramping up Uyghurs usage pretty significantly here over the past couple games, and I think he's one of those players where he almost looks better the more he plays

because he's able to effortlessly cover ground and eat up minutes the way that he does, and so I think it's smart, and I think the fact that he's showing he's more than capable of doing so, and Calgary is only going to empower his Sutter to give a more and more leash here. Yeah, they're going to have to, too, because they don't

have Shillington and is out indefinitely for personal reasons, you know, Stone's injured now, So they're playing a couple of guys, I would say, were probably ninth and tenth of depth chart as the third pairing right now. So they don't have much of a choice. Yeah, yesterday when I was watching, you know, in Sportsnet, after the puck drop in the first minute or so, they flash the graphics of each team's lineup, right?

And then they go through the forward lines, and they go through the defense parings. And by the time they got out to the third pairing for the flames, I was like, I now watch a lot of hockey. And I was like, what is going on? Where does this come from? Yeah, losing Valmacki on Ravers hurts a little more because of that. And then Connor Mackie, who the team is kind of rated as a good seventh defender has struggled mightily

with obviously a lot of other people, but he he looked pretty miserable in his first shoe outing. So as I said, a lot has gone wrong to the team with this little skid. But we'll see how it goes. All right. Well, Kent, this was a blast. I'm sure we're going to check back in as the season goes along. plug some stuff. Plug your

your Discord. Plug the website that you're writing at now. I want you to get all that out there because, you know,

you took a hiatus there on us. He kind of disappeared from the writing scene, but now that you're back up and writing, even if it's kind of on a, on a, touch and go basis,

I still, every time you put something out there, I'm quick to read it. Yeah, I appreciate that. So I'm on Twitter at Kent underscore Wilson.

Big Body Presence on Substack and Big Body Presence is actually my Discord. server community. The substacks a bit flames, but also more esoteric, just philosophy of running a hockey team type of stuff than her Discord is pretty much all flames. Yeah, you've been at this for a while. I'm sure I brought this up on the podcast before, but you know, you were, you were up there at the Nation Network when I first started working, and you were one of the people that gave me a shot and

kind of a foot in the door. So I'm always eternally grateful to you and all the others at the Nation Network for doing so. awesome man yeah thanks for the discussion and yeah maybe i can come back um you know after win streak under happier times yeah yeah certainly yeah exactly all right this was awesome kent uh thank you to everyone for listening to the pedocast today if you enjoyed the show um certainly please go and give us that five star rating and review wherever you listen to the podcast and we're going to be back tomorrow with more i think we're having ryan lambert on and we're going to bounce around a variety of different topics around the league so look forward to that

And yeah, that's about it for today's show. So thank you for listening to the HockeyPedioCast here on the Sportsnet Radio Network.