The Hockey PDOcast - The Changing Landscape for Regional Game Broadcasts

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Sean Shapiro joins Dimitri to talk about regional broadcasts in the NHL, the uncertainty that a number of teams are facing heading into next season, and the unique model the Vegas Golden Knights are testing out to hopefully make their games more accessible for a larger audience If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

mean since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovin. Welcome to the Hockey-PedioCast. My name is Dimitri Philpovich and joining me on this Monday is my good buddy, Sean Schiore. Sean, what's going on, man? Not much, man. It's kind of, it's kind of like that weird week, right? Like, it's the, we've got a bunch of everything's, quote-unquote, rumblings.

We don't have. A lot of rumblings. A lot of rumblings. A lot of rumblings. a lot of, uh, I'm hearings, a lot of rubblings,

a lot of smoke signals, but like, but like, a lot of people talking. Yes. Yes. A lot of, a lot of people reaching out.

A lot of, a lot of, a lot of messages being sent back and forth. A lot of, uh, it's, it's, it's,

it's, like high school all over again. A lot of, a lot of, I, I, I, I,

I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not pointing fingers anyone else because we're all, we're all included in this. But it's, it's a lot of just you know what there could have been a game

seven tonight of the Stanley Cup final there isn't and how are we all going to kill time until we start having our I'm rumblings and I've heard and I'm sensing this when it's actually just people sitting down over coffees and beers in Nashville

next week. I'm hearing the wild Bill Carlson is nursing the meanest hangover in the history of drinking but that's that those are my rumblings I can't confirm it. But it's wild to hear you say that game seven could have been tonight, just considering it feels like I know it's only been a handful of days,

but it feels almost like that Stanley Cup final happened and ended like a different month ago. Like it just is crazy to think that it still could be happening. That's how far removed. It feels like we're from it in the offseason itself hasn't fully gotten going yet, right? We got the Oliver Ekman-Larsen buyout. We got the Jesper Brad extension. We had that trade during the Stanley Cup final.

but for the most part, it is a lot of kind of like, not necessarily the calm before the storm, but it feels like we're sort of starting to ramp up here, right? And it feels like probably heading into next week in particular. That's when a lot of the good stuff's going to happen. It also feels like there's a lot of like trying to, it almost feels like the hockey news cycle is trying to make up for the fact. Like you hear all the stories where it's like,

people will be like, oh, this is the worst free agency class ever. And we hear people like, we hear people like, I think like Greg Wyshinsky tweet the other day where it's like it's effing awful or something like that

and like it feels like almost where it's like hockey is try hockey is kind of collectively trying to push back against that where it's like

we know July 1st is going to be it's going to be pretty boring on July 1st so let's try to make everything else as exciting as possible for that

it almost feels like there's a natural like ecosystem push push within that right now so it's yeah I mean it's it's something it's we we get we're going to get we're going to get ourselves really excited about some some depth signings I guess on July 1 we're going to get excited about

well let's let's let's put a pin free agency we'll talk more about that in a minute here I thought you know for today it'll be good we've been kicking around some topics that we wanted to do even while the Stanley Cup final was going on but it felt like you know just for his sake of timeliness and the games going on, we should have focused on that, and that's what we did, and I'm glad we did so. But now the Stanley Cup final is done, we have this opportunity here in this little window to get into some of these topics. There are kind of more tangential, I guess, but still of interest to us. And so hopefully the listeners will enjoy them as well. And the first one is broadcast, and you wrote a big piece on this.

It's something that we've been discussing. I think you and I actually did almost a full show on it months ago now, kind of talking about the current state of, of not only NHL broadcasts, I guess sports broadcast in general, but specifically for the purposes of the show, NHL broadcasts, the future of them, kind of what's to come, especially in light of all the news with ballet sports, filing for bankruptcy and kind of what that trickle down effect or ramifications that would be. And then you wrote this story on your substack about the Golden Knights and kind of what their specific future in that regard is. So I guess that's a good entry way here for us to talk about that and kind of,

We can focus on the Golden Knights model here because obviously they're of interest, right? They just won the Stanley Cup championship. They're going to be the team. Everyone's kind of looking to. But I think this is something that you're going to be hearing more about in different markets as well, right? So I think it'll apply and be of interest to a lot of different fans. Yeah, this is the Stanley Cup champion copycat thing that you would actually want that if you're a fan of another team, you actually want your team to copycat this because it makes it easier and less expensive for you

to find the game if you are within that team's market. And I mean, you and I've talked about this. What's one of the biggest issues for hockey fandom right now? One of the biggest point of entries issues is how do I find the game on TV? How do I watch the game? And it's various markets have their different issues and everything like that. But at the end of the day, so much the time the answer has always been, you have to pay for X amount of services

to find your team's games, to watch most your team's games. And that was just always the reality of it. And the Vegas, the Golden Knights model for next season is, and the channel will be available, to be clear, the channel, if you pay for pay TV bundle,

this channel will likely be in there in that market as well. But if you want to get, if you want to go old school and get the Vegas Gold Knights for free over the air and most televisions still have an antenna built into them. I know most people didn't know that, but a lot still do. And you'll be able to get, if you're within the Vegas market, within what's considered the Vegas TV market, which is obviously all of Nevada. And then there's also

it kind of extends into other parts of the Rocky Mountains, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, all those places too. But most importantly, their main demographic, the greater Las Vegas area, you can get the game on TV for free next year. And that's through Vegas worked out a deal with their, with a script sports, with script sports. It's going to be an over-the-air

product. It's going to be a space where Golden Knights games will be easier to find. And within Vegas last year, under the AT&T Rocky Mountains deal, only about a third of the Vegas

market even actually had access to that channel. That's just with television distribution. And now effectively, 100% of the market will have access to Golden Knights games. And that's a huge thing for me. Like, I look at, like, you look at space of how do we grow this sport, how do we make it more accessible? You make it easier for people to find on TV. You make it easier for people to get their foot in the door. And that's what the Golden Knights are doing. I think the key thing, just the key caveat to bring up on this before we go to obviously, we give Vegas credit for what they're doing. But there's also the circumstances that allow it to happen.

I think that needs to be clear because there's to be, like in the NBA, we saw the Phoenix Suns tried to, in the NBA, we saw the Phoenix Suns tried to leave their, the Valley is currently filing for bankruptcy, and the Phoenix Suns basically tried to leave Bali, and they basically had the move blocked in court. So, like, you think about your local team that's got a Bali deal, like a St. Louis Blues, a Dallas Stars,

and Asheville Predators, if they tried to do something like this, they would either, they would probably be blocked in court, so they couldn't do it. Vegas, what Vegas did, and if you want a team

that could completely follow what Vegas did, you look at Seattle, you look at Pittsburgh, I think those are the only other two that were under the AT&T, AT&T model before, basically where, Turner Sports, the parent company for the AT&T

regional sports networks, had decided they were going to get out of the regional sports network model. They were just basically going to dissolve it. They were going to file for chapter 7 bankruptcy, not chapter 11. And they basically went to Vegas of like, hey, we're getting out. You can have the rights back. And so the Golden Knights had this golden opportunity. That pun wasn't intended, but it sounded great. the Golden Knights had this golden opportunity to basically figure it out clean.

They got out of the one with AT&T clean. All the checks came through and they were able to figure out something instead of coming out of shambles, it was kind of just coming out of a slight disappointment. And that's not something every team has an advantage of doing. So I do think that's an important context before we just throw all the praise on Vegas and rip, like you can't just go all of a sudden rip your local Bali affiliated team because there are contracts and, play. Yes. Yeah, it was certainly opportunistic on their part at the same time, though,

I do give them credit for sort of making the most of what could have been mishandled quite poorly, right? In the wrong hands, and in particular, we've spoken, I think the last time I had you on, I was kind of wondering, like, I was like, I gave you the floor and I asked you, all right, what are the sort of people talking about during the Stanley Cup final around the series at the ring, kind of what's really sticking out to you and it can extend beyond the on-ice product. and you made the point of how much this organization has invested into its own product, into growing it, into building, into kind of cultivating and then retaining new fans into making it a work environment for players, right, where they have all of these perks

and all these advantages and really state of the art equipment and everything, right? And so much goes into running a successful NHL organization that extends well beyond that on ice product. obviously that's the front facing thing and that's what most fans ultimately care about, whether their team is fun to watch, whether they're winning or losing. But behind the scenes, there's so much else that goes into it, especially in terms of expenses and investments, right? And so it's not something we typically discuss because all we generally care about are

like player salaries and whether the team is cap compliant and sort of whether they can have all of these players. But in terms of the actual investment that a team like the organization, like the Golden Knights is making in in this is an important part of it right because I imagine that there's the drawback for a lot of other potential parties that would be interested in doing something like this is it seems like there's probably going to be at least an initial hit on the on the on the cash return um side right and so you're kind of almost like giving away money in that sense but if you're playing the long game and if you actually are serious about quote unquote growing

the game and expanding your coverage of it and how many fans you attract, this seems like a pretty good way to go about it. You mentioned the sun's there and it's really unfortunate to hear because in preparation for this, I was reading this article on Forbes and they made the note of how the idea of going this route and going kind of over-the-air TV as opposed to the more traditional subscriber-based cable model was going to increase the number of households in the number of households in the that area that they were going to be able to get to by like threefold. Like it was going to go up to nearly 95% of households with TVs.

We're going to have access to Suns and Mercury games. And that's quite a number to think about. That is very cool. Obviously, not all of those people are actually going to be taking advantage of that and watching those games, but at least it gives you a foot in the door to do so. And it's not necessarily prohibitive. And so the Golden Knights going that route and doing this is very encouraging about kind of what that future could look like for teams that that have this option available and

choose to do so. Yeah, and it's, it's for Vegas, it's exactly that. It's the, you're going from about a third of the Vegas metro area, Vegas, Summerlin Henderson, having, having games to rough, I mean, to about 95 to 100 percent of the market now having it in their homes. It's, it's a similar impact there. And obviously, not every team's going to win the Stanley Cup, but you talk about the, the The benefit of that, I mean, talk about the easy marketing push that you go into next season as the Vegas Marketing Department. You just won the cup. Obviously, it's, you've really nailed the land.

You've really stuck the landing in franchise history of being the Vegas's team. Like, the Raiders are a relocated team. The baseball team will be a relocated team. You've really owned the market as the team, the local support, and the team that really invested in this market first. Now you come in and you be like, look, we just want a cup. We want a cup for you. Now we're giving you our product on TV for free.

Like that is such a powerful marketing push for the Golden Knights going into next season. Coming right off winning this cup. And it's, to be clear, scripts is still paying them. Like, it's not like they're not, it's not like they're taking, they're getting zero dollars from the TV deal. But as the Vegas team president told me and headed into this story where it's like, when Vegas came into the League originally in 2017, they had to go with the more traditional RSN deal because it was a vital part of the cash flow. Now they could take a little bit of risk now because they're making money on all the other areas. They're seeing how growing the game can help in other areas.

And you really hope other teams see that. And where I come into place on this, and I think this will be, I'm hoping I'm stealing your good podcast hosting segues on this, I think one team that, we've seen the negative on this, but in theory, hopefully maybe you would have liked them to do the opposite, is you could have seen the Kings do something like this. Because the Kings, one of the reasons that Alex Faust is no longer the broadcaster on television for the Kings. And Alex, I believe, is one of the top five, top ten for sure, top five maybe play by play guys in the league. One of the reasons he's no longer going to be the Kings play by play guy next year is because they don't have a TV partner for next year because their deal with ballets expires. And so, there's someone who, in theory, could have looked into something like this for the L.A. market. And I, like, so obviously we talked about circumstances giving Vegas an advantage. Let's also look at there are circumstances where the Kings could have done something different. And instead, we're seeing a spot where, unfortunately, a really good play-by-play guy is not going to be doing their games anymore on television. So I, this is one of those spaces for me where you grow the,

sport, like you grow the sport, you grow your exposure. It's the, it may not be the same big TV check right away, but I think the long-term thinking should pay off here, especially, and it will in Vegas. We're already seeing it just six years in with Vegas, but this is just the first time they've really done it with the TV. Like, they used to do this. They still, I mean, I guess they still will, obviously now that they're going to do regular season games, but you know how in the NFL, right? Like, obviously every single regular season game in the NFL is a national TV game. But you get

like those weird like local, not weird, sorry, wrong terminology, but you get the preseason games done by like local stations, right? And that's basically how Vegas did their preseason games before. Like they worked with scripts for preseason games before where they had the big TV contract for the regular season

with 80 and T Rocky Mountain, but then still did preseason games kind of over the air. They're just basically extending that and it's there's precedent that that shows when you make the effort to take down

the barriers, when you make the effort to stop people from jump, that's how you turn a town in that's how you turn a town from into a your team town. I mean, that's that's one of the reasons that

Vegas is such a success story. It's because they understood what they need to do to turn it into a hockey market. It wasn't the, oh, like, I laugh. It was the whole, it was the Nate Silver story that came, that came up recently where it's like, oh, this is a terrible market because there's only 3% are diehard hockey fans. Vegas didn't care about that. They cared about how do we turn these people into Vegas gold night fans? It wasn't turning them into diehard hockey fans. I don't care if they're watching the Memorial Cup or watching Tier 3 junior hockey games. No, it's about how do you turn people into hockey fans of your team. Hockey is a regional league, very much so. And obviously we wanted to grow to beyond that, but you embrace that within your regional market. And the Golden Knights have done that. And I hope more teams look at this and from a TV perspective kind of because finding ways to get people to watch your game for free is a win for a lot of people. Well, and I think it's also a very savvy long-term gambit on their part because just increasing the number of people that can reasonably consume your product. and especially in terms of like convincing them to like hop on board and get excited about it

and then potentially start you know if they are in the market going to games buying a team's jerseys all of that fun stuff like that's a very valuable thing to do because the more people we get watching hopefully they get become hooked and then you secure them as a lifelong fan right And I think you should have confidence in the quality of the product at this moment to accomplish that. I think the quality of the product speaks for itself in terms of how fast the skaters are now, how hard they shoot, all the cool stuff they can do with the puck on their stick. Like the sport itself aesthetically is as pleasing as it's ever been. And so centering your marketing tactics around like, this is a really cool sport. You should watch it.

And then actually allowing people to do so seems like a point. pretty smart long-term investment. And we've been talking about the in-home effect of individual homes, but this also, for your, the Vegas Golden Knights by doing this, have also taken away any barrier of you're a local sports bar and all of a sudden you have to have what, you have to have the cable package that carries the Vegas games. Right. Like, this is taken that away.

This is taken away that obstacle where you no longer. have to, someone doesn't have to walk around, go to a sports bar or restaurant and getting the Golden Knights game on TV will no longer be dependent on whether that. Exactly. Yeah. No, certainly. And I, okay, so I guess the next follow-up question then is, is there's still sort of in the works in terms of partnering up with a streaming service, right?

Yep. So what's that kind of next step looking like? Yeah, so I mean, part of it is, and it's a it's a, it's a, it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it's a little bit. It's a it's a it's a lot. It's a and in the league has to be involved with that. So part of the reason and like I saw someone. One of the one of course there's always someone on Twitter who when I tweeted this story out to respect. bond of like, oh, why haven't they figured this? Well, I mean, part of it is you talk about maximizing your value and you make with a potential streaming partner. If you come to the table as the defendant as the Stanley Cup champion, you got a little bit more value to that to that streaming partner.

So it's the, I don't know exactly which way they'll go with this. I don't know if they'll, if something where they'll work with scripts hand at hand in this, if they'll do something their own. If they do something their own, that'll be another story, obviously. obviously. They're kind of just shopping it around figuring it out right now because figuring out the streaming and the digital rights, it was a really savvy move by Vegas to hold on to those. And not just like too many times NHL teams will be just like, here, everyone, have everything when they don't realize that it's the reason for the longest time we had only an NBC sports deal,

where it was the NHL signed a 10-year deal with NBC Sports. And we saw how much like how much do we talk about hockey, hockey being more popular in the United States and in the opportunities right now the past couple years just because they split the TV deal, right? Like, it's, and it's a very similar. Thank God. Thank God they did because you look at the quality of the product between the TNT broadcast and the ESPN ones. I mean, that's night and day as well. Yeah. And just also, like, the ESPN progress too. Like, think about what it would be if they weren't getting shamed. Like, what would the broadcast quality be if they weren't getting shamed by looking over at TNT the other night. Like, it's, it's something where I hopefully, hopefully,

competition pushes things forward. And it's similar to this space where splitting your entities by Vegas created a revenue stream, or they were, they had to replace one revenue stream. They have not completely replaced it yet, to be clear, they have not completely gotten the money they would have gotten from, from, from the AT&T Rocky Mountain deal, but they got part of it back from the script deal, and they'll be able to get another part of it back from whatever streaming deal they work, whether that's something that they create with another partner. Maybe they go to the direct-to-consumer. Obviously, that's something that when I asked about that, they were a little bit,

I don't think they're ready to, as an NHL team, I think teams are still a little bit, are trying to, like, test the waters to see what happens with the Padres deal right here for quick, quick 30-second background for people. The Padres were a Bally's team, and basically Bally's defaulted on their payments and the uh there's a pretty good story um about how basically the podres midseason have now games being produced by the league and they're being um and and you can in market now is basically MLB TV and everything like that and so I think a lot of teams are monitoring what the Padres do this summer to see what they would do and I know I know having talked to some people I know that's something that Vegas will definitely also monitor as well um

So how Vegas, there's a second part of this story to come up of what the Vegas streaming element looks like, because it will be interesting and it will help, it will also help shape what some of their teams. Teams do, because this is such a copycat league in so many ways. Team, and it's not just on the ice. It's next week at the draft. There will be a ton of discussions between NHLGMs and they all get together and all that stuff. But at the same time, all the team presidents get together, all the directors of marketing get together, all. all of the ticket sales guys get together. And they all get together and they all have their meetings.

They talk about what works and what doesn't. And some ideas, and that's how ideas kind of proliferate throughout the league of like, okay, we did this here and it works here. And then let's try it here. And so I'm sure there will be a very in-depth discussion about the Vegas TV package. I'm sure the whole regional sports network will be,

there'll be an entire probably meeting over crisis for some in opportunity for others at the draft next week. To be clear, like, this is, it's funny because Florida is the other team that the Vegas played in the final. Florida almost did this last year. Florida came close. The Panthers came really close to launching their own direct-to-consumer market. They were negotiating with Bally, and they had actually priced out and worked out a deal where, not what I mean with themselves, where they were going to go the direct-to-consumer market. route, do their own channel, and they were going to include, and one of the things they were

going to do as part of the buildup of it is they were going to include the streaming service for, well, not, they were going to make it part of season ticket packages where, like, if you were a season ticket holder, you got this as part of your season tickets. Similar to how in MLS right now, if you're a season ticket holder of a team, you get that MLS TV package on Apple and everything like that. So the Panthers were a team that almost did this by choice, but then ultimately bally valleys came to the table and gave the money they wanted. So I'm sure it's, it's funny because these two teams, Vegas and Florida are going to, they played in the final, but two interesting experiences, two interesting kind of things, one that actually played out, one that almost played out,

where there will be, they will definitely be the center of some group conversations around the league and this regional sports network deal next week when the league gets together for its annual draft summit. well you know the last time um you and i did fully kind of broach this topic we were making the point of how um how dire the like the current state of some of of of being a fan is sometimes in terms of access to these games and watching them and you know got some pushback from from a listener it was fair in in some sense where he was like uh i was a hockey fan in like the 90s and like you just have access to like one game or whatever

per week or depending on on where you were. And so it's like your ability to actually follow the league and have the full scope of it was was non-existent. And now you can like just, you know, if you turn on whatever service you're using and theoretically at least have access to all these games, your coverage of the league, if you're interested in other teams is so much more available. And that's certainly true, right? Obviously, we're not comparing it to the 90s.

what the point I think we were trying to make was just in terms of like all right it's 2023 I'm sitting down I'm curious where the game's going to be how I can watch it and then having confidence that you're actually going to have like full access to it that the streaming is going to work that you're going to be able to watch it without you know being uh stopping and starting or or or just you know the app just turning off or whatever like it's it's this high wire act that feels like this year um that represented a massive regression in my opinion, even compared to last season's product. And so I just wanted to point that out, right? I think just being able to do very simple things like pick a broadcast, be able to jump around and toggle for one game to another, just being able to switch between

those games, being in control of your viewing experience, right? And I think that ties it into this from from Vegas's perspective as a team as well, where now being fully in control, like obviously they have a partner and you have to sort of meet certain obligations. But for the most part, being, I would presume, much more in control over your own content as well, I think will be reflected in the viewing experience and having viewers actually being able to get what they're looking for. Yeah, I think so. I think for sure. I think it's, I think the Vegas story is part of, is one where they, they chose and they, they picked the Vegas resident over. the quick dollar. I think that's something that is, I think that's an important part of the

Vegas story. You know who else they picked on? Who else? The Salt Lake City resident. They did. They did. They did. That was interesting. When you were listening to states, you mentioned Montana, you mentioned Wyoming, you mentioned Idaho. I noticed you didn't mention Utah. Well, I mentioned, it was, it was Salt Lake City, it wasn't just Utah. It was Salt Lake City in particular. It was the... A very specific region. we're going to be trying to win over some fans. A very specific reason where Vegas will be trying to go ahead. We're planting our flag and we're going to turn them into Golden Knights fans.

Why? Yes. Well, let's answer that question in a couple years. Yes. Well, and also there's also follow the money on a lot of things. And if all of a sudden something is a Vegas stronghold to use, since Vegas loves those types of those analogies, if you're going to take part of the fortress, you're going to have to pay for it in some way. So that's a, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was correct. There was, there were no distinct callouts to the hockey fan in Boise, Idaho. But there were in Salt Lake City. So yes. Well, you, you mentioned the Alex Faust earlier and I completely co-signed with you. Like he would be, you know, we got to do a, um, a broadcast rankings, uh, at the start of next season. But he would have been in my like, definitely top 10, probably top five play by play guys. Obviously, obviously it's a bit subjective in terms of, you know, you know,

what you like and what you're looking for. But for me, checked so many boxes. And so it's absolutely insane to me that he is out of a job now. And I'm sure he's going to land on his feet and get a job. Like we'll be hearing him calling hockey games in some capacity next year. I have no doubt. But just because the team at the moment and when they release the press release,

it's like once we know more, we will let you know about the broadcasting details for the 2020, 20, 23, 2024 season. And it's like, all right, that's in a couple months. That's, that's a, it's pretty interesting to be. just kind of leaving it dangling for the for the moment considering what's at stake. But, you know, Faust himself, I, I don't know if I ever told this story on the podcast, but I think it was the fall of 2019.

The LA Kings were in town here in Vancouver. And we met up. I went to the hotel. He was staying out. We recorded an episode of the PDO cast in like the hotel bar slash lobby area. And it was like a really fun 35, 40 minute conversation. And then I got home. And I was like, all right.

let's listen to this and it's just like you could not even make out what we're saying because how bad the background noise was and it was it was very upsetting only a few times that I've been doing probably over like 600 episodes now at this point over nearly a decade um there's been very few times I can count on one hand where I recorded a show and the audio was not playable and I just wasn't up to a certain standard I was like all right we're just not going to run this and this was one of those and it's very upsetting and I haven't been able to connect with him and get him back on the show since. So who knows, maybe he'll have a bit more free time this season and we can get him on the PDO cast. Hopefully not. On him, just quickly really. If he does national stuff, right,

then that's a bit of a more forgiving schedule. Yeah, it should, I mean, it is. He's, you talk about, I would, and I have no knowledge of this at all, but I'm just going to plant two seeds together and just hope this takes. Alex is a former, he's a northeastern grad, I believe. He's from the Boston area. There could be a broadcast that at some point could use a new young voice that is going to be that could define hockey for a future generation. I'm just going to throw that out there. So I will say on the LA thing, it will be interesting to monitor to see what happens

because the Kings are a team that a couple years ago completely left terrestrial radio. They just went completely to IHeart radio, radio streaming only. and where they end up with their TV deal and how this all shakes out will be really interesting just because it's the NHL's team in the second biggest market in North America. And if they can't stick a landing that's going to be concerning just because it's the second biggest market in North America. And it's going to be something where I would imagine how the kings handle things and how they work things out. I'm sure while the answer will always be our game has never been better. from Gary Betman at Pressors.

I'm sure he's not particularly pleased about seeing a franchise in Los Angeles struggling to find a TV solution right away. Yes. All right, John, let's take our break here. And then when we come back, we'll finish up. We'll put a pin in the broadcast conversation.

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We're back here on the HockeyedioCast of Sean Shapiro. Sean, we spent the first block of today's show focusing on the changing RSN model and what's to come and how the Golden Knights are kind of leading the charge there. Let's switch gears a little bit. And, you know, at the top you mentioned this year's free agent class and all the conversations about how it's, you know, ranging from one of the worst ones you can recall to just downright bad. And certainly when you look at the list of like the top projected contracts and the most interesting names available and stuff, it's not particularly inspiring.

But I didn't want to have a little bit of a conversation with you here about sort of the cap dynamics as we as we get ready for all these contracts. Because we know that regardless of your opinion on and your mileage on it. Once July 1st hits, we will see money thrown around, right? Even in this flat gap environment where teams keep talking about how, oh, we're limited with our resources. is we can't spend the way we'd like to. We always see there's a way, right? Where there's a will, there's a way. And we've already seen so far this offseason, right?

The Canucks make a very, a decision that I think they weren't particularly happy to make, but felt like they had to buying out Oliver Ekman-Larsen so they could clear up some cast base over the next couple of years in particular. We saw previously the Kings make a trade, giving up a bunch of future assets to clear money now they spent that on Vladis-Saiw Gabrikov. So that's accounted for a little bit and a bit of a different story. But we know that like regardless of the quality of players available, July 1 is just too enticing.

People will spend money so that they can trot players out and introduce them to their fans and act like they're doing something to try to improve their team, right? And inspire confidence heading into next season. So I don't know, let's talk a little bit about the cap situation in particular with, you know, a conversation that I've been having with people about Ivan Barberchav because he's been a big topic based on how well he played for Vegas and helping them win the cup on that top line with Eichl and Marsha.

So and sort of how he increased his own appeal as an unrestricted free agent this summer, he's a Dan Milstein client, right? And what we've talked about is both with Kuzmanko and then Gavrakov, most recently, they're players who were in a very similar age bracket. They were kind of like 26, 27 years old. And instead, and entering unrestricted free agent market, theoretically, with a lot of leverage themselves. And instead of doing the traditional hockey thing,

which is just take as long term of a deal as you can to get as many dollars as you can right now while you're still hot, instead they chose to go with two-year deals, which will get them back into the market in their late 20s before they hit 30. And with the idea that by then, the cap is going to go up so much that it'll increase everyone's earning power. It'll be kind of like a rising tide,

and you will benefit from nailing that time. And I guess I'm curious for your take on in conversations you had are sort of just like the temperature you're feeling, uh, in hearing all the rumblings, right? Um, whether that's sort of like a pervasive, um, idea, whether we're going to see more agents push their players in that direction this summer and whether that's just going to become kind of like the new topic we're focusing on with a lot of these deals. So we're going to be a lot of one and two year deals. Yeah, I do think there's a lot of players and a lot of agents who, are looking at this as how do we buy our way into that golden summer two years, two years from now when all of a sudden the escrow debts paid off. We're going to have kind of a rush of money that should have come in a couple that really,

the TV money, the TV money impact will really be felt two years from now. and then additional revenue that will come in. Like, I mean, one of the big things, one of the big revenue risers that's going to happen soon. And it's already started, but it's just going to keep going as we get more and more to it is we're going to get more. Sports betting is getting legalized more and more. Like, for example, in Dallas right now, just to give an example, I know quite a bit about, right now, sports betting is not legal in Texas. And there are a ton of sports betting companies that are jockeying right now just to get to the front of the line to be presenting sponsors once it gets

legal in that state. And the stars are going to get a ton of money from that. And we're going to get a ton of examples like that where you add the escrow getting flattened, the TV money coming together and some other potential things. Everyone is kind of looking at this golden summer like two years from now where there's going to be a ton of money. Everyone's going to get paid and if you're someone right now, if you're a player like a Barbashev, you take, maybe, maybe, I mean, maybe you look at the two year deal as a space where you buy yourself into that. You increase your value. And this may be the benefit to Vegas right now because I know he really liked playing in

Vegas. And I know Milstein said all the right things the other day to try to like temper that. So like he doesn't lose negotiating power at the table. But Barbashev really liked Vegas. It's really nice playing on Jack Eichel's wing. It's a really nice partying with a cup down the strip. Where you do that for two years, it may be a little bit below what you could have made

long-term length of the deal to really cash in two years from now. And I think we're going to see, I think, especially in this summer, I think we're going to see a lot of that. And I think we also, I think there's going to be some players and some agents who are maybe self-aware that this is the class and this is the year where you go long. You personally go long term because you're going to be near the top of this class, but you won't be near the top of a class two years from now.

And I think we're going to be two frames of thought. I think we're going to see guys. I think we're going to learn a lot about what players think about themselves. If a player thinks that they're going to be able to maximize their career earnings two years from now by doing this, you're going to see a lot of shorter term deals. But there's going to be a couple guys. I think there'll be a couple players where we're going to be like, wait, this guy signed long term when realizing that if I realize net player is going to be realizing that you know what I'm not going to be the guy who someone's going to be coming down to give a eight year deal two years from now so I'm going to take it now and I think I think there's still going to be some of those because of that that natural swing of the pendulum there yeah well I would think that in like at first blush that sort of middle class player would be the one to benefit the most from a massive hike and available money in the in the pool around the league right because

obviously the top players will their contracts will reflect that as such but right now we're sort of seeing this idea where the middle class has been really squeezed right because you're basically going with expensive stars and then you're trying to fill around the margins with either veteran role players who are trying to compete and so they're they're you know they're taking less and they might be able to get elsewhere and they're near the vet minimum or young players on ELCs and you control their earning power for however many years ahead and And so you'd think that even if you're not at the top of a free agent class, let's say, in 2025, there's going to be so much money, hopefully, around for a lot of teams that aren't really going to be in conversations or in the list of destinations for a lot of the top players regardless.

And so those teams are going to have money. We're going to look around. And even though we always talk about how Capspace is king, some of these teams treat it as if it's quite literally burning a hole in their pocket. it, right? And so you're just going to look around and be like, all right, well, I'm, Barboshev is still available. Yeah, he's 31 years older, whatever, at this point. But he's won a couple. Let's talk ourselves into that. And then that player winds up making much more than what otherwise. Obviously, it's very easy for us to say from the outside here because the hockey is a brutal sport. And you could, you know, you could be feeling great about your game and your earning power.

And then you take one shift and all of a sudden you get hurt or something happens. And poof, there goes, right? And so having that security and that's the ability. is certainly a very valuable thing and always will be. But just in terms of this idea of kind of betting on yourself and trying to look ahead as much as you can, it feels like they're trying to sort of have their cake and eat it too, right? In terms of getting some money up front now, like Yoga Gavakov, pretty much all of his money is in signing bonuses

these next two years. He's got a no-moo clause, so he's going to stay in L.A., but then also hits the market again at 29 or 30 years old and we'll hopefully be able to get that six-year deal, let's say, and kind of turn this into the best of both world scenario. you. Yeah, I mean, we saw this with the NBA, right? They had their massive hike for the TV deal really hiked up. Oh, yeah, and then everyone instantly regretted it. The money had to go somewhere, right? It was the money had to go somewhere. And the NBA obviously has a, the NBA is a different system and it has a max contract. So, and not every player's worth a max contract. So how do you, if you're a GM, you have to spend money. Like, that's your owner expects you to do it. And so we saw what the NBA. where we saw guys who were sixth, seventh guys on rosters making money that, I mean,

six, seventh guy in the NBA obviously makes more money than an NHL player makes. Of course. That's just a reality of it. The thing that will be really interesting for me and how this kind of this rising tide thing looks like will be, will hockey get out of its own way when it comes to, right? Right now there's no limit on an, there's no max contract in the NHL, right? Like there's no, there's no max contract in the NFL. NHL. There's nothing CBA regulated. But players and arguments create those problems where like

right now any player who makes 12 million, any player who wants to make more than 10 million dollars a year, like right now we go, McDavid has basically created a max contract where like anyone, like his $12.5 million cap hit, anyone you're like, you suggest anyone was ever to make that much money, you'd be like, oh, you think you're better than McDavid? Like, well, Kind of McDavid signed that contract in 2018. This isn't really a fair. It didn't rise for market or anything like that. That's like the NFL models, Article, you know, but it's an NFL model where the highest paid quarterback is the one who signed most recently.

Yeah. Right. That's just how it works. Yeah. And it's like the NHL, because McDavid's deal, what, goes through 2026 to the summer, like the NHL would be great if McDavid comes. If the money is really flowing that summer and like McDavid actually is willing to, and I don't know if he will, probably won't. because it won't be very hockey of him. But what he should do for everyone else,

he should be selfish for everyone else in a very weird way. He should be willing to say, you know what, I'm the best player in the world, I should make this much money. I'm worth this much. And then all of a sudden we don't get into a spot where, we're like,

oh, we can't pay this guy this much, but we'll find a way to pay a 33-year-old left-winger, $4 million because he hits in the playoffs. Well, and that's why, I mean, I'm pretty surprised to see the contract, the devils were able to get Jesper Brad to sign to. Yeah.

They made it clear that once they had Jack Hughes on an $8 million deal, they were kind of using that as their ceiling, right? And obviously, that's hilarious because he's immediately so significantly underpaid. But you're using that as leverage. And I just didn't think they'd be able to pull it off. We'll still see what happens with Timo Myers deal and what that comes in at. But to get Jesper Brat at 7.875 per for the next eight years, I mean, that's already a fair price right now for a top line, about 25 year old. But in two years, what that's going to look like as represented as a percentage of the cap, it's pretty wild to think about it. And that's going to obviously, if this goes in the direction where we're speculating here, it's going to wind up being just a massive home run of a deal for them.

right. And so I'd be very, if I was a 25 year old who's that productive, I'd be pretty wary of signing an eight-year deal right now. But once again, if someone's just willing to give you $63 million, that's a very difficult thing to say no to as well. Oh, 100%. And it's also like, I think internal pay structures are very, it's a very slippery slope to get down because it's, it creates, I feel sometimes they create more problems. In the end, they create more. more problems than they create more problems than they help like you'd be like oh we're saving money but we don't pay more than this guy we don't pay more than this guy or whatever and at the end of the day when you do that if you're able to stick it to a tea perfectly and you win a

Stanley Cup and everyone's taking less money to win a Stanley Cup yay that's fun but that's not how it works eventually what happens is someone will look and be like okay I'm not making more than this guy in my team but I'm looking at across the league and someone who does my job makes this much more on another team. Or they do, they finally do break that pay structure and you're like, wait, I was, like, I think putting these internal pay structures on and trying to actually enforce them is a very slippery slope. And if a guy is your most, if, if the, like, you should really try to pay, I'm not the one

signing these checks. So I'm not the one. It's, it's obviously, uh, my opinion on this. someone else's money. It's easy to spend someone else's money, but I think it's a dangerous, slippery slope when you do stuff like that. I'm a player I'm very intrigued by it,

is Brett Pesci, right? Not someone would necessarily talk about that much because he kind of just slides so seamlessly into Carolina's infrastructure and sort of just is a piece of that puzzle. But obviously, a very highly regarded player in league circles, which is agents within Wasserman.

And now, you know, he's got one year left at 4.0,0,0,0,0,000 on a deal that he signed, like it was a six-year deal that he signed when he had like 150 NHL games to his name and has obviously been massively underpaid for the past couple years will be 29 in November. And so I'm very curious to see sort of what that means, not only in terms of whether Carolina's able and willing to pay him what he wants and then what that means for him moving forward, because that probably is a player who will once again prioritize a longer term deal given that he'll already be 30 by the time it expires compared to some of

these other players we're talking about, but, you know, he would be someone who would also theoretically benefit quite a bit in the summer of 2025, but I doubt he'll get there just based on the way he's kind of positioning himself most recently. Yeah, I agree with that. All right. Sean, let's sign out of here. I will let you plug some stuff, promote some stuff. We obviously talked about your article on Substack here about the Golden Knights.

Let the listeners know sort of what you're up to now, what they can expect from you, moving here, moving forward here as we kind of ramp up into the off season and then heading into the summer break. Yeah, well, we're working on the, uh, the substack, which is a Shapshots. It's, uh, it's actually Shapshotshotshockey.com. We have a URL now. I can, uh, I feel like I keep saying that for a little bit now. Um, it started as a, you and I had a whole chat, I think back in October or whatever about how figuring out hockey content, right? Like, and this entire past year has been an interesting experiment for me and figuring how what works, what doesn't, playing around with things.

And I actually kind of have more of a quote unquote content plan that I feel free to rip up whenever I want. So that's, so we'll doing something this week on just kind of looking at some things going into the draft. I'll be interested to say, I don't know if I'll write anything off of it, but I'll attend Steve Eiserman's virtual media availability tomorrow. Attend is a very loose term. I'm sure I'll see if there's anything interesting.

comes out of that. And then I'll give a plug to our guys over at EP Rinkside because heading into the draft next week, the work that JD and company did on that draft guide. Let's give them some love because that's impressive. And that's a PDF you're going to want to download now. And then whenever your team, whenever your team picks, you're going to want to quickly control F to find everything you need to know about that guy. So you're buying the draft guide now. you may want to read it beforehand, that's fine. But really, you're going to want it on draft night so you can look much smarter to your friends by just having it right there on your phone or your computer.

Oh, I've got it hooked up on IV right into my veins, and I'm trying to consume as much of it as quickly as I can as I prepare for the draft, try to cram in one full year of scouting or even more in some cases into like a week's worth of prep as I get ready for mock draft season as we do the, yeah, the PDF cast mock draft next week. So looking forward to that. Sean, it was great as always. We'll chat with you soon. Thank you to the listeners for listening to us on the PDOCast.

If you want to help us out, go smash that five-star button wherever you're listening to the show. And we'll be back tomorrow with another episode of the Hockey PDRCast. As always, streaming on the SportsNay Radio Network.