The Hockey PDOcast - The Flames and Their Trade Candidates

Episode Date: February 23, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Julian McKenzie to talk about the Calgary Flames, the challenges of trying to keep playing competitive games while having all of your players in trade rumours, and how those most notable players like Hanifin, Tanev, and Markstrom have been performing this season. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filipovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dimitri Filipovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Julian McKenzie, Julian. What's going on, man? I'm doing well, man. Always great to hear from you. Always great to chop it up with you.

It feels like every time we talk, there's something interesting going on to the Calgary Flames. So I know when I get the DM from you to be on the show, it's a good time. Yeah, throw up the bat signal. know you're a busy guy, you're everywhere when it comes to sports media and you're also, I guess we're kind of teammates now, right, as you, you collaborate on the SportsNet Radio network, just like the PDA guest does. And so it's good to have you on. And you're right, this is certainly no exception, right? There's a lot to talk about with this Flames team,

a team that you cover closely on a day-to-day basis. And I think there's going to be one that's going to be a key topic of discussion between now and March 8th, obviously, depending on what they do. It feels like we're not breaking any ground here, right? They kind of hold the cards to, what we hope will be an entertaining and active trade deadline. I think fans listening to this that have been following the league for long enough now, know the drill, right? It's a lot of buzz, a lot of hearing rumblings, teams are talking, you know, business is picking up, and then we get to the trade deadline,

and it's not that eventful. But it feels like in this case, for the Flames perspective, at least, just because of the UFA status of some of these guys and sort of the ticking clock nature of it, it feels like we might actually get our wish. anything, it feels like more of a matter of, of when than it. It's like, it's so many fascinating storylines with this team, considering the fact that Noah Hanavan could very well likely be the most attractive commodity available ahead of the trade deadline,

considering what he can do for a team as a second pairing defenseman. Chris Tanev could get a second round pick or maybe a first round pick, maybe this year or next year, depending on a team who is hungry enough to get it. Jacob Berkshstrom may or may not be available. Feels like the only team we've really heard be truly connected to Jacob Marksham's and New Jersey Devils, but is someone else willing to pick up the phone and say, hey, I would love to trade for a goaltender making $6 million over the next few seasons, whose it is early mid-30s and is probably playing the best hockey's ever played as a member of the Calgary Flames,

at least since the Vesina year. I know the post, the Vesda nomination year was really good. then he had the year that didn't do so well. And now it seems like he's bouncing back. Like the value may never be higher for him right now as a Calgary Flame if they want to sell. And all lost in that, the Calgary Flames still have an outside chance of making the playoffs.

Like we're talking at a point where there's still a few points outside of it. And they've, the last few weeks, they've won games, they've lost games, they've won games, they've lost games. All it takes for them is to go on some kind of run and really make things interesting for them. themselves and Craig Conroy, the general manager of the Flames, finds himself in a really interesting situation. There are so many storylines to delve into with this team.

No wonder everyone's looking at the Calgary Flames and hoping that these storylines stay the way that they are in time for March 8th. Like they're the team. They're at the center of the trade deadline discussion. And I mean, with respect to Sean Walker and Adam Henrique and Jake Allen and any other player who could be traded by March 8th, like no one has as many enticing storylines or as enticing players

as the Calgary Flames do right now. It's really interesting to follow this team. It is. And hopefully we're going to be able to cover it all today and have a bit of a fun conversation with it. And before we get into all those individuals sort of moving parts and stuff, I just kind of want to ask you a bigger picture question to start off this discussion because you're covering this team on a day-day basis.

As I said, right, you're on the road with them when they're in New York. You're traveling with them. You're interacting with everyone in person. I'm kind of curious for what it's like covering a team that's in this sort of an awkward period because you're right. They've played much better particularly in terms of results lately. They're on this six and three stretch. I believe they've gone five and three since they traded Elias Linholm. They're still technically competing for a playoff spot.

And not only that, but the show goes on regardless of what's happening. There's games on the schedule. Often it's every other night. sometimes you're even dealing with back-to-backs. So you're playing these games, but at the same time, I think everyone is aware of it, no matter how much they want to admit it, they're following everything that's going on on social media, right? They're seeing what the insiders are saying.

They're kind of tracking all the news. And so it feels like I don't want to minimize the significance of the actual games, right? Because there's 82 of them. They're all very important. There's a lot on the line for both the players and the team and fans. But at the same time, just in the grand scheme of things, it feels like, it kind of pales in comparison, I guess, to this shoe we're waiting to drop in terms of like the off ice business component of it, right? I imagine there's a little bit of an awkwardness.

Like all of these guys are pros and there's certainly, it's a business, right? We get it. But at the same time, it is a bit of a unique circumstance compared to, you know, where they've been at in the past couple seasons. Absolutely. This whole time, there are two players I've thought a lot about. It's Rasmus Anderson and Michael Back. those two have are the two longest tenured players on this team obviously michael backlin has played way more games as a flame than rasmus anderson has but those two have been there the longest of

anyone and this team as it is now we're talking in february 2024 compared to what this team looked like in february 22 there's so much turnover so many players who have come and gone from this roster. And for, especially for those two guys, there's a lot of good friends who are gone from this team for a myriad of different reasons. And for them to go through this season where they're waiting for the shoe to drop on a Noah Haniffin or Chris Tanev. I think of them in indifference because it's not easy. Like I remember going to Michael Backland and asking him about this during the New York trip. And he admitted it was it was a roller coaster seeing all. these players up and leave or get traded and because those are people at the end of the day that

they form bonds and relationships with on the team and they could tell you all you want how much of a business this all is it's not always fun to see a teammate of yours leave for whatever reason or or realize that your teammate doesn't necessarily want to stay in this environment and to especially for Backlin who signed a contract last late last summer to stay on this team and to be a captain and hopefully lead this team through a competitive stretch, I wonder in his brain, like, what's that like for him to see this team kind of retool and maybe be on the verge of offloading more pieces? We don't know. We have to see how the summer goes, but I'm really intrigued for him. And for Rasmus Anderson, I still think about going to him and

him saying that, oh, I've seen my name in trade rumors, which was really interesting because I know the Kevin Weeks tweet went up a couple days ago where it's like, oh, I hear Rasmus Anderson's name in the news. Rasmus told me that before the Kevin Weeks tweet went up. So like in my head, I'm thinking, where are you finding this stuff? Like, are you just like on social media? You see fans tweeting out whatever? Because like, I mean, it's not something, I mean, unless I'm missing something. Like, it's not something that he, his name, this wasn't necessarily coming up at the same frequency as a Noah Hannafitter, Krista. So for him to say that, I was like, wow, like that's I don't know where you're finding your stuff,

but that just goes to show the wear and tear trade talk can apply on a person. Like you might not even necessarily be in the main purview of someone who goes on Twitter and creates a rumor, but they could just create whatever they want, and that could affect somebody. So I know that for everyone on that team, I think there are some guys who,

I think a lot of those guys, they've done a good job of trying to just shut out the noise. At least they're trying to make it seem that way. But they're all human at the end of the day. they see that stuff. They know what's going on. And Blake Coleman the other day was even saying, like there was a year where he got traded and he didn't hear anything about himself

getting discussed in trade rumors. It could happen to anybody. And for them to play through all of this while going through the fluctuations of a season, man, like it can't be easy for anyone in that locker room. And as much as they want to, you know, put up the stoic face and say that everything's cool. We're blocking out the noise.

I think you have to leave some room to acknowledge that, yeah, there is some of it that does creep in. And it does affect their psyche to a certain point. Well, especially since not that there's kind of combating agendas, right, because I think for everyone involved, it's in their best interest to play as well as they possibly can, right? Especially in the case of, you know, for Hanifin and Tanniv, they're both trying to put stuff on tape to get contracts this summer that'll pay them accordingly. right so it's like it's not a thing where oh i don't really care what happens the rest of the way until i get traded i'm on my new team because all of this stuff obviously matters not to mention that they're pros and they're wildly competitive and they're sort it's just in their DNA to you know the only

cliche of like taking one game at a time take it one shift at a time i imagine once the puck drops and you start playing like that's all that really matters but it is a bit strange right because i think you're sort of programmed to view it through the lens of like individual success is great and everyone wants to play their best and, you know, if you're a forward, especially get points if your defensemen, prevent goals, eat up a lot of ice time. But it's also a bit strange because you're not necessarily being judged based on your team success in this case. It's not that you're motivated by just individual success, right? But it is a bit of a different factor than when you start a new season and all that really matters is your team winning games

and competing for a playoff spot. In this case, you get stretched the last. little bit in a couple of directions. And I think it's human to sort of look out for yourself. And we're going to talk about TANF. And it's literally like he cannot play any other way other than 110% diving face first into flying pucks. But both from his perspective and also from the team's perspective, that's a scary thing when there's this sort of looming potential trade and the fact that if something goes

wrong, all of a sudden everyone's future that's involved can just change basically the drop of a hat. Man, like, I'm glad you mentioned Chris Tanov because all year watching that guy practice, watching that guy play, it's like anytime he like falls wrong, I look around and everyone's like, oh my God, like what's happening. Like, oh my God. Like, is it done? Like, is he done? Like, what's going to happen? But that's the way that he is.

He's a warrior. You go talk to anyone in that locker room. I'm sure there are guys who have played with him in Vancouver will tell you the same thing. This guy's a warrior. He'll find a way to play through anything. I still think of that New Jersey game from a couple games ago or he was out of the game twice for two different reasons and he comes back and he's still playing through it.

And I see people say that the team should be doing everything they can to bench him ahead of a trade. I could understand if the team is very close to a trade and you say, you know what, you're going to be a healthy scratch while we fix this up. But with games up until the deadline, good luck trying to get him to sit. That's just not who he is.

And I think to a certain point, there are GMs around the league who might be interested in Chris Tanna, who value him because of the fact that he's able to play the way that he plays and the fact that he's willing to withstand that pain. And yes, he sustained injuries in parts of his career,

but this guy's also played through a lot in his Calgary tenure. He hasn't missed that much compared to what he was going through in Vancouver too. And it's kind of funny to see this reputation for him as an injury prone defenseman, when over the last few years, he's tried to change that.

And he's tried to play through the pain. And he's been a calming surefire influence for that team. I can understand if you pull up the analytics, maybe it tells you something a little bit different for him. But there are guys in that locker room in Calgary who value his leadership. They value what he does on the ice. he's like a kind of like a set in and forget it type of player.

You put him with Noah Hanifit on that second pairing and it's a pairing that Ryan Huska, the head coach of the flames, can trust. So yeah, he's a fascinating character ahead of the deadline because of the way that he plays, but also the risk for injury that applies for everybody. Knock on what, I'm not wishing injury on anybody, but like, Chris Tandav could go through,

could take as many pucks to the face, could absorb as many shots as he could absorb, and could play through fine. Noah Hanifin just has to like fall weird one way and then boom, like his season's done. The risk for injury is something that every player has to play through. And I understand that because of playing styles, it might be amplified for more, one player more than another. But, you know, I don't see people saying, hey, Noah Hanifin should be benched.

Are you going to tell this team right now that's trying to still fight for a playoff spot? hey, you should sit Jacob Markstrom. It's a really interesting discussion for me. No, on a 10 of one is fascinating. I'm glad you brought that up because I obviously got to follow his career closely here in Vancouver on his way up, right? And even in his late 20s and a bunch of injuries were out of his control, right? It's like broken bones and stuff that it's not a matter of can you gut through it

and brave the pain. It's like, no, you like, we cannot for the greater good. And also because of your long-term health allow you to go on the ice, right? And you just take that decision out of his hands. But when he signed that four-year deal with the flames in 2020, I believe, I remember thinking, like, man, I love the player. But four years, even at this point, as a 30-year-old, is a bit aggressive from my perspective because he's already basically being like held together by duct tape before every game. And what's that going to look like three, four years from now? And now you fast forward to that.

And in this four-year span in Gallaghery, he's missed a grand total of 20 total games over those four years. And I believe the first two years he didn't miss any, right? And so that's something he certainly prides himself on. And kudos to him because he's managed to, despite a lot of those scares, just keep coming back out there. You mentioned the New Jersey game, I believe, a few nights later in MSG. He also had a scare where I forget what happened to him, but I just remember thinking like, oh, he's just not going to get up. And then every single Flames game I watch, at some point or another, the camera pants that abandon, he's like doubled over receiving medical attention. And I'm like, I just don't know if he's going to survive.

And then all of a sudden, next penalty kill, he's back out there, diving face first to try to block a shot. And I'm like, man, that is probably, you know, it's in his interest, best interest in the flames of interest. Hopefully he doesn't get hurt. But it is like if you're another team watching that and you've got your pro scouts there or you're trying to figure it out, not that Chris Tanev has to prove himself at this point because he's been doing it for long enough now. But it is also one of the things that would attract you to him if you were interested in trading for him. Right. So getting to see that is kind of a selling point. But man, I was joking, like, watching him play, it's almost like every single game is like a hell and a sell match where he's just getting like, he's one of those wrestlers that takes unnecessary bumps, like from the 90s where he's like,

all right, I'm going to ask you to put me through a table now and then hit me a bunch of times with a steel chair and then grab my face and just rake it up against the, up against the cage. And I'll take all of it. and then I'll just keep going, right? And so I love Chris Tandiv so much. But it's, every night watching him is scary. If Chris Tandiv, if you could put him atop a cage

and you told him you have to throw this man off, like Undertaker throwing mankind off the hell of a cell match, he would do it. Chris Tadiv is just that dude. He's built different. He's wired different. And just, I don't know.

I think, I also like talking to him in the locker room because I think he's a lot smarter than some people might think. I think the way that he processes things, just is very, it's a little bit more nuanced that I think that other people would realize from a player, like people, people might see him and just think, okay,

some dumb jock with a loose tooth, but he reads the game well. He understands what goes on in a game. He could keep stuff short, but I think just as a personality, he's one of the more intriguing ones in that flames locker room. Well, and he's also, I'm glad you brought this up earlier, he's an analytics OG because I remember when he came up with a Canucks, right? He certainly took the long road to getting there. And then you watch him play and he's never going to be one to put up a lot of points, doesn't shoot particularly hard, doesn't skate very fast, doesn't hit a lot, certainly blocks a lot of shots. But I remember there would be evaluators and even within the Canucks organization at times, they were like, yeah, I just don't know like how important he is. I remember like there was like legitimate blogging wars at the time being like, know, like look at his impacts in terms of like shot attempts and everything with him on the ice

and his ability to eat tough minutes. And he is incredibly valuable. And there's a way to quantify that. This isn't one of those like intangible things where it's like you just don't understand why Kristaanov is valuable. Ironically enough, like you can actually use numbers to illustrate that. And we're going to talk more about that when we get it to Hanifin. But I want to talk a little bit about Markstrom before we get into the defenseman because I've got this discord question from a, from a listener named Reese. And it's an interesting one. And I'm going to read it to you and then we can get into a little bit about Markstrom because it goes catching up on the latest PDO cast with Kevin Woodley,

I was thinking if Markstrom's play is substantially above his expected save percentage the way Woodley is, should that serve as a red flag for those looking to acquire defensemen from the flames? Now, the staties referencing is the great Kevin Woodley brought to my attention and has talked about it a bunch, where ClearSight Analytics has Jacob Markstrom's expected safe percentage of the season, Julian, at like 870 or some sort of just ghastly number, right? And you hear that and you're like, does that make a lot of sense? Because I understand the flames of regressed defensively in front of them and they're giving up way more rush chances in particular against him, which grade out is very dangerous.

But man, if he was performing at 870 according to that expectation, like to put that into perspective, anti-Ranta is at 872, Jack Campbell is at 873 this year. Like these guys, I understand there's, you know, financial implications, but they cleared through waivers without any interest. So if Jacob Erickson was literally just stopping all the pox we'd quote unquote expect him to, he'd be that bad. Like that's how egregious it's been. And I think we should note that the clear side analytics sometimes skews on the lower side

because they strip away all the shots goalies save that are like going a bit wide, right? And they get credit for it as a stop. But in reality, even if they were there, the puck wouldn't have gone in. And so that tends to skew things. But I do think there is an important point to make here, regardless of what model you use to quantify goalie efficiency, see this season. Markstrom grades out remarkably well, right? And we're going to talk about the defensemen and the guys in front of them in the system and all that and how that ties into it.

But I thought that was a good segue for us to get into Markstrom because the last time I had you on this show, I believe it was towards the end of last year. And we had a whole section where we were talking about, you know, how Markstrom had been disappointing. Like this team was on the playoff bubble. They had high expectations heading into the season. They lost 31 goal games. I forget what he ended the year with, but he had given up the goal on the first. shoddy face like seven or eight times at least last season, right? Like, he was not good. His same percentage was 892.

His goal save above expected was minus 25. Like any way you looked at it, he was not good enough, particularly to how he had performed the previous year. And he's really bounced back this year. And he's been phenomenal. And so I think that's an important thing here, right? Because on the one hand, it illustrates kind of how precarious goalie performance is, right? You can go from those highs to lows from year to year, much more than skaters can.

But also, I can see why people. are so interested in why a team like the devils is so fascinated by him because he's been phenomenal. Like you watch that game against the Bruins last night, as long as he stays in his crease and he doesn't go on those classic Jacob Marks from adventures, he's going to stop the puck. And he's doing it in such a calm manner. Neither of us are, you know, technical goalie guys, so we're not going to break down the hip rotation and all that stuff. But like, you can just see it with your eyes, right?

Like he is squaring pucks up. He's eating it. He looks like he's, he looks like he's. so in the zone right now. And so all of it backs up the performance. And I think he's been phenomenal. He's been the team's MVP throughout this season. This is a guy who found a way to bounce back after a less than an ideal 20, 22,

20 to 23 campaign. He had to talk with Ryan Huska in the summer. And Ryan Huska didn't know what to expect and talking to him. And Jacob Barksstrom said, you know what? That season, that was on B. He took responsibility and just was very blunt with Ryan Huska talking about it. And then he comes to training camp. He's ready to go.

It's also important too. I think as it was told to me, the way that he trained that offseason, this past offseason, a lot better than the one before because he wasn't battling any long-term wear and injuries, particularly after that Edmonton series before the flames. So I think that also played a role in why he's looked a lot better. for this season for the flames. And there's been games this year where this team is not playing well in front of him, but he's been able to bail them out or at least keep them in games.

That's not something I saw much of last season with him. I think it took me until in the final quarter of the year, at least through my eyes, to see Jacob Markstrom play at a level where he's been so unstoppable. He's basically winning the team games. But this year, it feels as if that's, happening, maybe not every other night, but he's giving this team a chance. It's happened a couple of times this year in the locker room where we're talking to guys, especially Rastas Anderson, who will step up and say this guy's like a top three goalie in the league.

Like they'll defend him and hype him up and say all these great things about him. I don't know if you realize this, but his win over the Bruins the other night, he's now second all time in wins among Swedish goalies. He just passed Tommy Salo on that list. Like the only other Swedish goalie that has, more wins than Jacob Markstrom is Henrik Lundquist. Like that's a really incredible statistic. And I mean, there's a hot bunch of wins that he has to get to get to that mark.

But Jacob Barksrom for the career that he's had, he's built himself a pretty decent career as an HL goaltender. And this season is proving as a reminder that he's still a good goalie. I know at the beginning I was trying to make the point that he hasn't played as this good since that 2021, 2021, 2022 year, where he was ultimately a Vesna finalist. This, I mean, depending on how this shakes out for the flames, if they make the playoffs, do you give him Vesna votes?

I mean, I don't think he's beating Connor Hellebuck for that honor, but like, Jacob Barksstrom has played well enough to put his team in a position where there are guys in that room who still think they can make the playoffs. And a big reason why is because of him. And a big reason why is because Jacob Barksrom has been playing at this unreal level and has been able to do so thanks to the training he's been able to do in the off season, being healthy, and just being in the zone. Well, and by, you know, I think he's like top three by everything.

I use sport logic. I like it a bit more than the public ones for goals they have about expected. And he's right there with Sorokin and Hellebuck amongst the league leaders. And I think based on degree of difficulty in particular, what he's done this year is almost more impressive to me than that Vezna final season he had a couple years ago, right? because in that Daryl Sutter system, especially with the way that team was playing and there was so much Rudd support of him as well,

there was a lot of margin for error, but also there were a lot of nights where, and this might be sometimes something that is tough for a goalie, we certainly hear them talk about that, where it's like, all right, I don't see a puck for 10, 15 minutes at a time, and then I have to make a save. Well, even when he was having to make saves,

they were pretty low degree of difficulty because they were defending just so well in front of them. They were keeping everything out of the inner slot. And then you look this year, and not only is the volume up, but the chances like what he's having a face how he's being left out at dry at times right where a lot of odd man rushes a lot of stuff coming back the other way and he's just standing up to it and just basically aggressively stopping everything and so he's been phenomenal and it's been

really interesting to see right because he was so shaky last year and now he's 35 next season he's got the two years left at 6 million you mentioned and i don't know in your conversations you do a podcast with our pal chris johnson And have you talked to them at all about sort of what happened with the reporting, right? Because I think we've heard sort of mixed things, but also relatively kind of, I think a clear picture right now that it seems like they were pretty far down the line with New Jersey. And Markstrom's willing to go there. But what the issue was, I guess, the flame sort of retaining a certain portion of his salary for those two upcoming seasons and maybe that being more of a deal breaker than anything else. It feels like with whatever 10 days or two weeks left to a trade deadline, if there's a will, there's a way, right?

Like it seems like the fit is very obvious and it seems like the devils should be very interested. So I'm really curious to see if that kind of comes back up and if everything comes from this because he's been so good and the devils really need exactly what he's done, right? Like they give up a lot of rush stuff and he's been so good at it. And so it seems like at least on paper, the fit between those two would be very obvious. Yeah. I should point to your listeners to a column that my colleague Jesse Granger wrote earlier this week discussing the fit. And I did provide some perspectives on that and my colleague Peter Baas well on that. With regards to a trade with New Jersey, this is just my feel on things right now.

I feel like talking today and that could easily change like as soon as I get off this with you. I feel less confident about a Markstrom trade than I did maybe like a week or two. ago. I've heard some of that reporting out there about how close it's been. It feels like depending on whoever you talk to you, you hear something different. Like as it was relayed to me, I don't think something was particularly

close. And there may be varying degrees of what that closest might really mean. But I wonder with this team if they're willing to, like how much salary are they willing to retain on a Jacob Markstrom contract? This is not a franchise that

is particularly known for doing that sort of thing. So I wonder how far ownership is willing to do, willing to go on retention with that. Also, if the goal is to still make the playoffs, which a lot of guys in that room

are still saying, if you flip away Jacob Markstrom, is that leading you to your goal? Like, that's just thinking about that. Like, is that something that's also holding them up as well in all of this? Because if there's still, how many points out and they still think they could do it,

Having a guy like Jacob Markstrom in net would really help their chances compared to flipping him. And you just have to rely on Dan Bladar and Dustin Wolf, which would help for a rebuild depending on what you get. But if this team still ultimately wants to be competitive, you might still need Jacob Markstrom there. And as for an actual trade, like I think if you're Craig Conroy, I don't think you need to, I know some people might disagree with this. You don't need to rush training him. And I think if you're, if you're, you should try to sell high as best as you can and get yourself a return that gets you a high draft pick, a young player who you could put in your roster right now. Like some of the names people keep throwing around with New Jersey are like Alexander Holtson, Dawson Mercer. Like those are players, if I'm Craig Conroy, I would like to have in a return and some kind of draft pick.

And maybe something else on top of that to make it work to justify the idea of retained. salary with with Jacob Markstrom because I get it you have Dustin Wolf in the system and he needs time at the NHL level to really acclimatize to what life is like there and you have Dan Vladar but if this team is I think what Jacob Berksch would be obviously

elevates their chances at being relatively competitive but if they want to rebuild they want to retool and they want to create an avenue for Dustin both to play they ultimately have to do something with their goaltending situation but I don't think it necessarily means that you have to just throw away Jacob Barckstrom at any chance you get. One other thing too, I mean,

over the last few weeks, Jacob Markstrom's been drummed up as this trade candidate, but normally with guys who are out there, like Noah Hanofin, there's all these different teams that are being linked to him and all these other squads make sense. Chris Tanev, there's all these other teams that are interested. We've heard Ottawa as a team interested in Chris Tanev.

We've only really heard one team with Jacob Markstrom, and that's the New Jersey Devils. And maybe they might circle back for Hanif and Ratanin. But I wonder who else. It's easy to look at other teams around the league and say, well, yeah, Carolina could use a goalie. Well, yeah, Los Angeles could use a goalie. But are they willing to kick down the door of a 34-year-old goaltender making 6 mil for the next few seasons? How many months after Aiden Hill came out of nowhere

won a Stanley Cup? And if he balled out a little bit more, might have won a conspive trophy and then signed a deal at an AV less than Jacob Marks. I wonder about that too. While I think there are teams that are desperate for goaltending, we're seeing more and more now like you don't need the big money guy to get you there. For New Jersey, I understand why they would be interested because they felt that they were ahead of the curve and now they take it a step back and they need a goaltender to get them through.

But I don't know if every GM thinks that way. Well, I also wonder about the timeline, right? because you mentioned the organization's willingness to retain or lack thereof. It's also a team that has been relatively unwilling to like deliberately take a big step back. I think the word rebuild is probably scary to them. I think it would be much more focused around retooling. It sounds like semantics. But, you know, especially with, I think you mentioned kind of hovering around the playoff bubble.

Also lost in a lot of this is McKenzie Weeger has had a real bounce back season, right? he's scoring a bunch of goals. Nazim Kodry, who scored the overtime winner yesterday, has played really well. Michael, uh, sorry, Blake Coleman, uh, friend of the PDO guest has had a blow up season and really bounced back. Like a lot of the veterans who have enough term left on their deals that they're probably not going anywhere, even if the flames wanted to move them right now, are playing much better, right?

And they're also at a stage of their career where being like, all right, well, let's trade everything for an 18 year old defenseman in major junior. or a draft pick two years from now that's going to take five years to make any sort of impact on this team by the time I'm gone doesn't necessarily appeal to it. I know they have a new GM, so I'm sure Craig Conroy has a lot of runway here, right, in terms of time and sort of flexibility to do whatever is in the best interest of the organization. But I do think that is sort of an interesting thing to consider because like we saw with Lindholm. With Lindholm, they traded him for pure futures. I know they got Kuzmanko back and he's been contributing.

to them. But, you know, I think a lot of that was prioritized around the first round pick and the prospect defenseman. And so what they do, you mentioned Mercer there and holds, like those players would presumably be very appealing to them in any of these trades as opposed to appear, you know, second round pick and prospect or first round pick and prospect that we typically see at the deadline. I think they would much more lean towards prioritizing young players who could immediately step in. And if you trade marks from regardless of what you do, I'm interested to see more Dustin Wolf but with the level Marksums played at this year

it's going to be a step back regardless of what Wolf does because we just said Marksum's been like a top three goalie in the league this season by any measure so you're going to take a step back but I still think they don't necessarily want to just lose every game the rest of the way like I still think there's a level of competitors here so it's interesting kind of juggling all those different factors

in terms of what you do and what you prioritize with any of these trades. I'm not convinced that Craig Conroy and management want to fully tear it down to the studs. And I think that one half of that is the contracts that they have right now. You know, I think like there was a time when fans would be in the mentions or writing into my mailbag being like, well, is there a way this team could trade Jonathan Huberto? Yeah, good luck with that $10.5 million salary.

He's been better since the new year. There was a point where he was like a point per game player since like December 31st. But good luck trying to offload that salary. Nassim Khadri is playing really well this year. I'm curious what his future could be, depending on what direction that they go as well, but that's still a lot of money for a guy entering his mid-30s. This team might ultimately be too good to properly tank,

and this team may ultimately be not good enough to really rise to the echelon of the elites. This is a team that's ultimately in that muddy middle, which Flames fans hate to hear. They've been groaning about that for all. a long time. They hate it, but that's who they are right now. But I'm also just not convinced that Craig Conroy wants to flip out all these salaries. And you mentioned those guys who are starting to play a little bit better. I don't think he wants to completely mess that up either. I think of

Nazim Kadri and him playing alongside Martin Bosbasil and Conner's Erie. There was a stretch at the beginning of the year where he was not producing and it got to a point where they had to kind of switch him around the lines and they got him playing with those two young kids. And he hasn't looked and he's looked really good. And Connor Zeri's benefited from it. And Martin Pospis was benefited from it. And I think that Greg Condroy is looking at that as an example to say, if we get more younger players into our lineup and we get them playing with some of our more quality

players, that's going to help get them going. And that's going to elevate the team status from middle of the pack team to slightly better. It's a weird way of kind of looking at the Dallas Stars way of doing things. Remember, there was a time when Jamie Ben and Tyler Sagan were not necessarily playing all that well. They had a really good draft class, which got them Jake Ottinger and Jason Robertson and Miri Hyskin. But they also added other younger players that just kind of help shore that team up. And instead of a team that probably could have fowndered with big heavy contracts and older players, we're looking at them as a cup contending team.

We're not hyping them up the same way as a Vegas or in Edmonton. They're right there. They found a way to be a good team while having those expensive contracts. And a big reason why is because they were able to get younger players around them in that team. So I think if the, I think the flames are trying to not say they're fully trying to emulate the Dallas Stars. Good luck having a draft class. We're able to get three banger picks as some of your first picks in a draft class. But I feel more convinced than ever just based off stuff that he's told to my, my colleague,

the Garrick do Hachick, they had a Q&A earlier in the year. And just off of how they've gone about the trade with Linholm and what they might be looking for, I think they're trying to get young players who can help now or at least in the not too distant future that sort of keep them afloat. And when everyone is good and that new building opens up in 2027, then you could look at this team and say, okay, we're legit. We're going to make a run for it. That's what I think they're trying to do.

Okay, Julian, we got to take a break here. We way overshot our break time here. I talk too much. I'm sorry. No, no. This has been a blast, Matt. And I didn't, you know, there was no natural point for us to stop because I just wanted to keep the good times flowing. Let's take our break here.

And then when we come back, we'll finish the conversation back up. You're listening to the Hockey P.D. cast streaming on the SportsNay Radio Network. All right. We're back here on the Hockey PEO cast with Julian McKenzie. We're talking about the flames. And Julian, before we went to break, we're talking about Markstrom, right? And I sort of prefaced it with this question from the,

the Discord from a listener about the defensive system in front of them. And Sport Logic has his team at 24th in expected goals against, 21st in slot shots against. Clearly, for whatever you'll say about the end of Daryl Sutter's tenure and his relationship with the players and communication and everything that went wrong, even till the very better end, one thing he could do remarkably well was juice a team's 5-1-5 system. Like, they were still, even when they weren't win a lot of games, they were still churning up those numbers. And this year they've clearly regressed in that regard. Right. And so need to kind of factor that in when you're evaluating. Like I said that a lot when we were talking

about Linholm when he got traded. But similarly with Hannafin and Tanev and even Rasmus Anderson and just talking about all these guys. We've talked a little bit about Tanniv so far. I guess we can sort of mix him in into the Hanifin conversation because the two of them have been a pair for much of this season and I think are kind of inextricable in that way. But I want to talk to you a little about Hanavan, right? Because I think you mentioned sort of the analytics on Tanev. And for me, I get why Hanofin is such a tantalizing proposition for so many, right? He just turned 27. He's 6.3, 215. He moves really well. And not just for that size, like for any player. He's a smooth skater. He scored some goals this season, although I'm kind of dubious of that shooting

percentage compared to his career norms. But you can see that the tools, the talent and why people are being interested, right? A former fifth overall pick. Yet for me, I think sometimes there's a bit of a disconnect, I guess, between how I evaluate him as a player in terms of a difference maker and kind of the way he, it's suggested, right? Because I think certainly with the way he's been used this year playing with Tanev, I think situationally he can be a very impactful player.

But I don't think he's necessarily one of those guys where you can just sort of plug and play am like Tampa Bay has been sort of mentioned as a team that's very interested. Well, if he's playing on that left side on that team, he's probably playing with like a, you know, like a Darren Radish or even someone else. And it's all of a sudden a much different calculus than playing with Chris Tanna of the way he has this year.

And I'm not sure what that's going to look like. And so for me, I guess I want to talk to you about him as a player and kind of the way we're viewing him and the way we're evaluating him and sort of what he brings to the table because I do think it's a very fascinating conversation, right? It is one of those where I just, I tend to differ, I guess, than a lot of the, the punditry that I see about him. He's a top four defenseman.

And I think on a really good team, if you have him as the second pairing defenseman, you could do worse. I think he's a solid offensive contributor. One thing I've seen him do quite a bit this year is just, you know, try to not necessarily, I mean, he'll have the moments where he's trying to go end to end. But just the fact that he has that confidence to take the puck for himself,

try to drive to the net and create offensive opportunities for himself. I think that makes him a really good tantalizing offensive option, not to mention that he can contribute on a power play. And he has a pretty decent shot himself. This is a player who on the offensive side has those gifts. And usually on defense, he's not someone who makes a ton of mistakes. Like if he does make a mistake and I think of that San Jose game in particular,

he had a giveaway that led to a goal against. Of course, they're noticeable. But this isn't a player who compared to some other guys we've seen play defense. I, if I was a coach, I wouldn't worry so much about him with defensive mistakes. I think for a team that acquires him, they get a guy who you can plug in the middle of your defense pairing. If you put him with a stay-at-home guy that's going to help in terms of your numbers and what have you for whatever team he's on. and he's a solid defense. He's the type of guy that, you know,

it Calgary a few years, depending on where they're at, that's the type of guy they're probably going to have to end up training for. And I think I could understand the other side of the argument that says that Craig Conroy might still want to keep him signed. And I understand why a guy like Noah Hanof him may want to continue his career in the States and want to pursue being on a cup contending team. If the flames feel that they could keep him,

I think they're going to keep trying at that, but it really looks like he is going to get moved. But I think as a player, I can understand, you know, different systems might mean different things for different players, but he's been solid as long as he's been in Calgary flame. They were in a man-to-man scheme last year. They were doing more of a zonal thing now. They've transitioned for that because they've seen other teams who have won Stanley Cup championships in recent years do that.

So they're trying to emulate the same thing. And I think there was a lot of growing pains that came as a result of that, especially at the beginning of the year. But yeah, I think for a guy like Noah Hanifan who's been able to just be a solid player throughout his time in Calgary. If you pulled him in a system where he doesn't have to be the guy, you know, maybe he could be on a PP2 unit for a team like Tampa Bay.

You could still get some good mileage out of him, some good production out of it. No, certainly. I think what's interesting is you look at the trends the past couple of years when he's played with TANF as his partner versus Rasmus Anderson, and there's been a pretty clear delineation in terms of results, right? Like when he's played with TANF, the 515 numbers, both this year and last year, are quite good in terms of shots, chances, expected goals again, against everything. With Anderson, it all dips.

And the reason why I think it's interesting is because for all the skill involved there, something I thought he struggled with in the past was being the primary guy to like go back and play a puck. I think you could get him to make mistakes and he'd look a bit sort of like awkward as being the primary guy going back and playing the puck. having to immediately do something. Something Tanev has excelled at over the years is being the guy to do that where, and this is why he takes so much punishment, he'll go back and he'll know that there's a forechecker coming full force at him and he'll just smile and take a massive hit. But in the process, he eats that forechecker, bumps it off to his partner,

and now a guy like Hanofin has so much more room to skate the puck off the ice or do something with time and space, right? And that's such a luxury for a guy like Hanofin. And it's interesting because I think- Absolutely. If you polled anyone, they'd be like, yeah, of course Rasmus Anderson is the more prolific puck mover than Chris Tanev. Like, that's what he profiles at. But in this case, I think that that sort of one little subtle skill that TANF has actually makes him such a better partner for what Hanifin does.

And I don't think it's an accident that he succeeded more with him. And so, and I don't think it's an accident that Tanef has been a great partner for everyone he's played with, right? For all the stuff about shaw blocking and everything, that one little thing has helped a guy like Quinn Hughes. Oliver Schillington, Hanofi, and anyone he's played with the past couple years, Excel, right?

And so I think that's really interesting and certainly something to consider for whatever team is sort of acquiring these guys and how they would use them. But I do think that has been a big change for them and a big reason, because I've seen a lot of this framed around

Hanifan is having his best year at just the right time, right? And part of that is just scoring more goals. But I think part of it is also, I don't think we should discount the impact that playing with TANF full time recently has had on him compared to last year when he was playing more so with Anderson. Absolutely, man.

I mean, that just goes to show the importance of TANV on this team and the fact that he can be this home defenseman, this stay at home defensive who, again, is a surefire guy who could be a stabilizing presence. And for a guy like Hanif who's able to be afforded that space to try to be as dynamic as he can be, I don't think he's necessarily the most dynamic offensive defenseman, but I think the fact that he's able to show it while playing with Chris. TANev that benefits him. And I think there's going to be teams

that are going to be interested in that type of player, especially if they could fit him in the second pairing. I don't think he necessarily needs to be the guy in a contending team. The biggest question I have at this point is what can the flames get for him? Like it seems as if Tampa Bay is being trumpeted as this team. And I've

heard colleagues say, like even Chris Johnson, the other day we were talking about it on the podcast. He said it makes a ton of sense for what he could do for that team, especially with Mikhail Cirquev being out. My question. is in terms of a return, what makes sense more for the, for the Calgary Flames?

Tampa Bay might make sense for a lineup standpoint, but they don't have a first round pick this year, and I don't think they have one next year either. So if you're the Calgary Flames and you want to maximize your return, why would you want to spend time with Tampa Bay, who maybe at best will get you a first round pick, whether they might have to make a trade with somebody else to get it, or they're going to have to go deep into their futures to give you one.

maybe you throw in an Isaac Howard or another prospect you have in your system. Is that trade package for him better than what, say, not to bring up Dallas again, but what Dallas can provide where you have a first round pick this year, you have a player like Maverick Bork as a young center who is producing just as much as Logan Stankovin is at the HL level. And I know I'm throwing out names, but like just there are other teams that I think are a little bit more competitive in terms of a trade package. Like Boston comes to mind as well.

Like they might not have a first round pick this year. But they have one next year. I think they could provide a little bit more of a competitive package. But, you know, Julian Breezebois is a wizard in Tampa Bay for so many reasons. And if they really want this guy, he's got to have to find a way to make it work. And you can't ever discount the Tampa Bay Lightning for making it happen. But I think if you're the flames and you recognize that Noah Hannafin is the top player available for trade, you have to maximize your return like we were talking about earlier,

where you're trying to get younger players into the fold. and get yourself another first round pick if you can. Well, and the interesting thing here is it's kind of limiting when you narrow down the market so much to where he would want to resign. I wonder if they might actually be better suited, just viewing it as a pure rental and trading him to a team that he can help for a playoff run this year and getting more. That way, I know obviously a player coming with an extension in place or at least the possibility to do so will fetch a larger return in theory. But when you narrow it down to like two or three teams, there are ones with typically very few assets to to dangle that are intriguing to you, all of a sudden it kind of becomes like whether it's worth it or not.

Right. So yeah, I'm sure the lightning are very interested. It makes a lot of sense for them. But, you know, I'm also very interested in getting myself a new beach house and a couple new luxury cars. But I'm not sure if I necessarily have the means or resources to accomplish that. So did you imagine if I had the ability to talk to supermodel a supermodel and have them be my wife.

Like we'd all want that, right? Like if some butts were cookies and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas. Yeah, I've heard reports that Julian McKenzie is interested in doing so. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah, Julian. We got to get out of here.

Let's get some plugs in here on the way out. Well, because I had this whole thing. We're going to talk about defensemen, and I really wanted to talk a lot about Oliver Shillington with you. But that gives us a good excuse for maybe once the trade deadline kind of blows over. And we get back to just talking about games and on ice results and stuff like that, we can hit you back on and we can do like a full show about that because I've really, you know watching him play recently.

It's kind of reminded me of what made him so special two years ago when he had that breakout season. And so we're seeing more and more of it seemingly a nightly basis. So I'm looking forward to doing that. But I'll give you a chance here to plug some stuff because obviously, as I joked off the top, you're a very busy man and you've got a lot going on. And especially ahead of the trade headline, and I want you to direct everyone's attention to where they can check all that workout. The athletic is where you can find my work.

Please subscribe. Our NHL team is the best in the game. And once you subscribe to the athletic, whether through my work or anyone else's work, you get access to everything. And we just do a lot of great work over there, whether on the NHL side, NBA, NFL, whatever league you want, we got it. Especially with the PWHL, too. We're doing a lot of great work. Haley Salvin's doing great with that. So please subscribe to the athletic,

subscribe to the CJ show, the Chris Johnston show on the SDPN YouTube page or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you are in Calgary and you like listening to sports radio between 1 p.m. and 3 p.m. mountain time. I'm on Thursdays on Sportsnet today with Logan Gordon. And we talk about sports.

We talk about the flames. We talk about other sports as well. It's a fun time. It's a great show. And I'm proud to be a part of that. And yeah, as you mentioned at the beginning, because of that, teammate. So to say that I'm a teammate of the one, Demetri Filipovich, it is an honor, my friend.

The honor is all mine. It's about time. And I'm glad that's the case. So we'll certainly have you on again soon, Julian, and give up the great work. Thank you to everyone for listening to us. We're going to let Julie go here. And then we're going to come back with one more show here on the Hockey P.D.O cast to close the week out here on the Sportsnet Radio Network.