The Hockey PDOcast - The Jets Are Struggling, the Current State of the Standings and Selling the Idea of a Rebuild, and What We’re Enjoying Watching

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Thomas Drance to get into our top stories from this past week of hockey. We discuss the changing expectations for the Jets this season as their struggles continue, the growing gap between the Avalanche and everyone else, the teams occupying the bottom of the standings and their appetite for rebuilding moving forward, the players being linked to the Devils on the trade market, and the upcoming games we're excited to watch. Plus a bunch of other notes on Beckett Sennecke, Ryan Leonard, the Oilers top line, and plenty more.  If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Regressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey P.D.O.Cast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedio cast. My name is Dmitra Filipovich, and joining me once again on another Sunday for our Sunday special, my good buddy, Thomas Trans, Tom, what's going on then? I'm doing well, buddy. How are you? I'm doing well. Give me a monologue off the top. Oh, right. You can't just actually answer my question. I can't ease into this.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm doing well. I'm thinking about what I watched this week. I've been obviously focused on the Canucks as I would be. So I saw back-to-back games, including what I thought was as comical, a performance, not a performance, because I don't think either team played poorly so much as, I thought it was just a perfect encapsulation of the hilarity that is following hockey where, you know, the wild for 35 minutes in Vancouver last night, like Boldie, Caprizov, I mean, generating quality scoring chances at will, Zuccarello. I mean, just skating circles around the Canucks.

Things weren't going their way. There were like a lot of moments where they were over skating the puck or bobbling it, but they still were just so dynamic and looked like they were in complete control. And then across six shots, the Canucks score four goals on the hottest goaltender in hockey. One of them is disallowed. All of them are unscreened wrist shots. All of them are taken by non-goal scoring threats, right? Like guys who are not going to hit 15 goals total on the air. And it was just this hilarious, hilarious reminder of the chaos that can shape these games,

that can shape the individual results that were watching on a day-to-day basis. And I was sitting there watching it. Honestly, I was having a great time. It was a really fun game, but it was just such a reminder of how easy it is to get worked up in the randomness, which is, you know, so present in small samples. Yet in the set of games, the back-to-back that the Canucks, using that as an example and really flushing it out, played this weekend. I felt like they deserved a better fate against Utah, where they were the better team for by a player that game and Utah was really kind of sleepwalking through it for the most part and wound up getting the result out

of it that I didn't think they deserved. So I feel like if you put those two games together, the Canucks getting two out of four points probably is the right outcome. So in a way, it did work itself out in a small sample. But it's just amazing. Like the Walsstead bubble sort of, and not just the Walsstead bubble, but the Walsstead run that has driven this incredible month of November for the while, just sort of popping suddenly with back-to-back losses against 32nd place teams, right? Because obviously the flames were last in the league when they defeated the Wild and that allowed the flames to move out of 32nd, parking the Canucks there

so that the Wild could once again lose to the worst team in the hockey after basically being completely undefeatable for the month of November. It was, I mean, there was just so many layers of comedy to that particular game. The Wild got to be hoping that the predators aren't on their schedule. Yeah, seriously. All right, that was a much better monologue. You redeem yourself, I feel like. Let's go.

You actually answering my question on how is it, how it's going, very earnestly. You may, maybe, maybe, what are you thinking about this week? Something like that. Maybe I need a prompt. Okay, so that's a good place for us to start. We're going to go through some of the big storylines, developments that caught our eye while watching hockey this weekend. I want to start talking about the Winnipeg Jets a little bit with you. And I feel like we're sort of in passing the past couple weeks, referenced them.

I feel like we've generally taken more of a half glass, glass half full of. approach in terms of focusing on teams that are performing really well and that we're excited about. But I feel like we got to talk about the Jets here because it's the lasting image of my mind from Saturday night's games. I was watching them get their teeth just absolutely kicked in by the Oilers in Edmonton on Saturday night to close out that night of hockey. And I'm sympathetic to the idea that they're kind of swimming upstream against the schedule here, right? It was their seventh game in 11 days, the second leg of a back-to-back after winning the first one at home against the Sabres to start the weekend.

It's a well-rested Oilers team that's finally gone to chill out a little bit at home is getting healthier, reuniting that top line of McDavid playing with Hyman and an R&H. Those guys starting to cook and getting McDavid going offensively. They exploded for 15 goals against the Cracken and Jets combined here in the last two games. But for the Jets, I thought the effort itself was not only alarming in isolation, but then lumping it into the whole context of what they've been going through here recently. where earlier in the week to start things off in Buffalo, they have another poor effort.

They wind up, it's being reported after that they have this players meeting, close their meeting after the game to sort of address the performance. And this has been a recurring theme for them where they just don't have the juice. Right now, they look like the oldest and slowest and probably shallowest good team in the league in terms of how they are on the top line for all of their five-on-five scoring. And in this one, I mean, coming out of the gate, getting outscored 4-0 in the first period, outshot 16 to 3. It was just absolutely over after 20 minutes. And I don't know, I feel like we have to have a Jets conversation because it's, we're needing to quickly hear on the fly.

I think recalibrated our expectations. I don't think anyone was expecting a repeat of last year for them. No. With how good they were. But I think despite the injuries to start the year, we all had a certain level of respect for the baseline with the goal-tending, the special teams, the infrastructure, continuity of all the players that are coming back. And they started the year getting results despite concerning underlying

numbers, and now it feels like the bottom has really fallen out here. I mean, they're 5-10 and 1 in their last 16 games fall in the 25th in the league in points percentage. Yeah, and they look like it most nights. I think the now they get to see what the other side

looks like, right, or how the other side lives without Connor Hellebeck and net. And I do think you have to start there, even though I think you'd be lying to yourself if you're pinning this all on Eric Comrie. I mean, even this week, like, their goaltending wasn't great, but it wasn't what was killing them against the Edmonton Oilers very clearly. When I think about sort of what we watched from the Jets or what we've seen from the Jets lately, you know, I, I, we, it's hard not to start with Eilers because it does feel like the second line issue is a really significant part of

what we're seeing uh you know they're they're playing taves and lowry together with perfetti uh i don't know that that line has the speed right now i mean taves is not finding the same level of like genius two-way player um that nino need a writer has found with for for example colpherty in the past i feel like that line's been a struggle for them territorially and the way that it's sort have calibrated, they kind of need it to produce it. I mean, it needs to at least produce a territorial edge. And then they're not really winning the Shifley lines minutes either, especially of late. Yeah. Well, they are in the sense that they're just creating so much offensively that even if they give stuff back, it's just so necessary for the operation. But it's not

overwhelming is my point. Like if you're coming out as a draw in the Shifley minutes, right? And then your second line is problematic, even though in some ways I kind of like, you know, this Ayaphalo and Mesnikov group, like I kind of like what we're seeing from that fourth line too. They contributed some offense this week. Against Buffalo, yeah. Yeah. There's been moments where that fits, but I feel like where we're really seeing the lack of speed is in that top six, specifically on the second line. And I think it's magnified because, A, they don't have the best goaltender on planet Earth, you know, sort of raising their floor. And B, the Shifley line is still incredible, even if they're not generating the sort of territorial or goals edge that this Jets team's going to need.

At least, like, we have confidence that they'll come out of it and probably produce a month where we're like, wow, that's one of the best lines in hockey again. But if that's not there, if the goaltending's not there, then I think you see the seams of that sort of depth issue, especially on the second line. Yeah. I think part of it is like they're fighting up such an uphill battle. right now in terms of how little they have around them and just entering every single night knowing that if they're going to win, they're going to have to essentially do all of the heavy lifting. I mean, this team has scored 55, five-on-five goals so far this season. Shifley or Morrissey or both combined have been on the ice for 43 of them. Yeah. So they're down 28 to 12 with neither

of those two guys. They're number one center and their number one defenseman out on the ice. We're 28 games into the season now. And their leading score up front that's not on the top line is Nino Nita Ryder with 8 5-on-5 points in 28 games. And I feel like you mentioned the line combinations and stuff. I think the players simply aren't good enough at this point, but also I feel like the coaching isn't really doing anything to hide that recently. And then Halebuck's not being available is also compounding that as well. I mentioned that 5-10 and one stretch there in here.

Those five wins at Canucks, at flames in a shootout, home against the blue jackets, at Predators, and then most recently versus the Sabres. And again, they were out shot 35 to 23, not exactly the most illustrious quality of competition there in terms of the wins they have been able to claw out here. And the gap, and when we're just started

thinking about the playoffs in the West, they're 19 points back of the aves, they're 14 points back of the stars. I feel like the only sober lining for them, as we mentioned, the mammoth, them underwhelming, the wild, despite that hot stretch they went through recently, coming back

down earth a little bit, the blues, certainly everything they've gone through this year. The central is, aside from the top two who are really running away with this, relatively available in terms of that third spot. The issue is that within the context of the West now, I struggling to find a compelling argument even when Hellabout comes back that this Jets team has currently constructed is a top five, six West team. And so the best case scenario here, even everything comes together, is being first round fodder starting on the road against one of the top seats,

is going to be either Colorado, Dallas, or Vegas. And I feel like that's a recipe for disaster, certainly. And so I just feel like when we talk about the expectations and recalibrating it here on the fly, that's a pretty good sort of testament to, I think, how far we've come with this team right now. Yeah, no, I think you're right. And for all of that, you know, like, for example,

again, this is a Canuckscentric take for me, but for example, a guy like Kiefer Sherwood, who would just immediately add some speed, plays Jeth's style hockey but would just bring an element as a puck carrier through the neutral zone I feel like even though there's no confusing

Kiefer Sherwood with Nikolai Eilers, for example I feel like that's the sort of move they should maybe be in the market for. Oh, I think it's the opposite direction. You think they need to consider? I mean, I was looking at their list of UFAs and some of these might honestly be addition by subtraction. Well, that's what I'm saying.

Like the Nyquist fit hasn't really worked. Yeah, Nyquist, Taves, Pearson, and then Stanley and Shen. And obviously they need to calm me right now. And I think he's a very fine backup. Yeah. But considering how few goleys are available for sure. In the market in general, I feel like that could actually fetch a nice little return. And I don't think you necessarily want to pull the plug on the season because they're still hanging around the standings.

They still have this infrastructure, hell about we'll be back. But I do feel like we need to have a, you know, in line with the players only meeting they have where it's like, A moment of reflection, kind of. Yeah, yeah. Taking stock of where we're at, I feel like as an organization, they would do well to take a big picture of you here, especially in light of the fact that they got a lot of the important business done the past year, which is getting that Kyle Connor deal sorted out. Yeah.

Signing, Sandberg, Volarty, Lowry, previously, obviously a couple years ago, Shifley, and Hellebuck. So, like, a lot of the guys who generally would worry with this organization, man, if we have a couple down years, these guys are going to want to bolt and sign somewhere else, They're in place. So now I feel like you need to figure out everything else around them. And Perfetti as an RFA is really the only guy that you sort of need to figure something out with in the short term this coming summer. And that's, and that shouldn't be understated because that was wildly difficult for last time out ahead of his second contract. And, you know, we know that that was one of those bridge contracts that felt like like one of those Columbus bridge contracts we had over the years, whether it was Johansen or Josh Anderson, where it felt like the third one.

going to be even tougher. So I'll be curious to see sort of where that goes. I mean, I think for this Jets team, like part of the issue, too, is it's not as if you go down to Manitoba and there's like an obvious guy who's point per game plus, you know, they don't have a Brad Nudow or Elia Proto just finding ways to shoehorn that into the conversation, sort of marinating down in Manitoba where it's like, well, they need to give that guy a shot. at least among their forward sort of collection of forward talents. So I think that complicates things too.

I, you know, I'm just sort of thinking that the Nyquist ad feels like it's not, feels like it's spinning its wheels, right? He's not even a regular for them at this point. He has dealt with injuries in the early part of the season. So maybe he can find sort of another gear and at least, like at least give them something like Anthony Beauvillier level contribution, right? Like I think that's sort of what you're hoping for at this point because like, this Jets team would love

Anthony Bovalier. I think it desperately use Anthony Bovillow. Right. I mean, that's what, that's exactly the sort of guy they need. Um, so I, I think it might be worth at least spending some assets to re-roll there,

uh, at least to just sort of try and tied themselves over till Helibut comes back. And then if they do decide to make some more difficult decisions, you know, following that Washington capital, circa 2023 model where you do sell and, you know, not that the jets are positioned because of their

market reality to be a rebuilder by any means. But you know, an intentional short range step back along the lines of what Washington did in 20, 23, where you both buy and sell, like do sort of the hybrid thing, but really intentionally get younger. You know,

if you have to shut some guys down for the end of the season or limit minutes, I mean, we saw the capitals even do that with Ovi down the stretch of that season and he was still in the record chase. And I mean, it delivered them Ryan Leonard and Rasmus Sandine and position them cap-wise to swing on Chicker and Thompson and Dubois that summer. I mean, that's the sort

of model that I'd be thinking about, I think, if I was talking to Chevy about it. Yeah, I think looking at their roster right now, not accounting for all the guys who will be hitting the UFA market, they have about 80.5 million in cap commitments, and I wouldn't expect them to necessarily be a cap team moving forward, as we talked about last year anyways. And the reason why that's important is you look at the structuring of Jonathan Taze's deal. He signed this past summer and he's essentially adding $550k to next year's cap with every 10-game increment he hits here. Perfect. And so this would be like a ticking time bomb if they were actually up against it

in terms of like trying to figure out a way to get out of this to salvage next season's cap. I don't think it's as big of an issue given this current circumstance, though. The market hasn't about 58% implied probability for the playoffs. You think that's high? I think it's a bit generous right now. I don't want to be a prisoner of the moment in terms of how bad they've looked here Hellabuck will be back, as we've discussed, but I don't know, maybe that's just a statement on the rest of the West, especially as we get out of the top five. Well, and I think that's, I think that's right. Like, I think the state of the West is sort of fascinating in part because, you know, and I think this is worth having as a general conversation about the state of the league, where the gap between the Colorado Avalanche and everybody else feels relatively uncommon versus what we've been used to.

to, you know, the avs are in a complete tier of their own. And in fact, it feels like a pretty significant golf. We're used to having like four or five teams and then a pretty significant golf. I feel like it's a one team top tier. And there's a pretty big divide. And then there's Dallas. And then there's, at least in terms of points, there's another huge divide. Yep.

Right? And I wouldn't say that Dallas deserves to like be placed in a different tier than a Vegas, for example. but certainly those three, and, you know, I feel like do we grandfather Edmonton into that tier or no? I think you have to. I think you have to, too. Because the body works too impressive. Yes, and we know they're going to gear up the past couple games where they, as I said, put up 15 goals in the past two games.

Prisoner of the moment, now that they've reminded us that they're still the Edmonton Oilers, which we knew, but we're beginning to worry about. Yeah, I think they belong in that. But it's a real tier of three behind Colorado. I mean, Colorado is a totally different beast. And meanwhile, there's no bad teams. And I think this is something that's really fascinating. I mean, there's teams that are relatively hopeless and that are minus 20 goals. But no one's going to end this season, it feels like in the West, without selling, without first intentionally dismantling their roster, you know, hitting those sort of like minus 70 goal differential marks that the Greg Cronin ducks used to or the, you know, Chicago Blackhawks teams that had like three NHL players and Connor Baderd on them.

I mean, this is a very different West, in part, I think, because in the past, when you were talking about San Jose or Chicago or some of those teams, you know, now they have the guy who's the reason why they're not going to be at the bottom of the table. So it feels like this huge mess kind of from five, like I'd say five through to, I don't know, I mean, I guess basically the bottom of the standings. Like Nashville, Vancouver, Calgary. Do you even put them in a different group than Seattle? Like, I feel like they're kind of in the same group. They've just had, they've run bad for various reasons. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair.

I think I was added in my notes here. There's three teams currently that are in the top five of both expected goals generated offensively and expected goals against defensively. Right. And they're the aves. Yeah. The Golden Knights. Yep.

And the Tampa Bay Light. Right. Now, I think the. Stars belong in that tier because of their power play. And the fact that they're clearly like better than five on five shot share, for example. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like there's a certain element of like picking their spots who takes the shots for them.

The fact that Harley's been out for a while now, all these entries up front, all of a sudden with Sega out now, they're going to have a nine-ish million dollar free slot to figure out. And we know they will figure that out. Yes. And so I would put them in there as well. But yeah, those three teams, I think, you know, in. I want to talk to you about how we discuss the abs because we've obviously talked about on the show. And yet, I don't know if you feel this, but there is a certain sense, like, whenever you put out a stat of like reflecting how much better they are than everyone, right?

Whether it's a team one or an individual one, there's this weird pushback I find. Oh, obviously people who aren't abs fans, but being like, oh, this is just setting up the demise in round one of the playoffs or whatever. because I feel like we've all been jaded by the two years. We've seen there were historically great regular seasons most recently, the Bruins and then the lightning before that, where they won 60 plus games and then wind up losing in round one. And that's sort of clouding the perception of a lot of this. And that kind of bugs me just because I feel like in general,

for all this talk about parity and everyone kind of being in this mushy middle in the league, I feel like we should be celebrating true acts of greatness from a team perspective. and that is what I would describe this 21, 2 and 6 start for them as with like a plus 52 goal differential so far. They're insane. Yeah. No, it's, well, and... Like, it was staggering to see them go on the road and lose to the islanders,

and they were down a couple goals, and then they scored a couple to, like, inch closer. Yeah. And you just fully expected that they were going to turn the game around and come back and win, and then they don't and they lose it. And until the final buzzer, I almost didn't. believe it was going to happen. Yeah. And that's crazy because it's NHL regular season, as you talked about, like there's so many random bounces and being the better team doesn't necessarily mean you're going to win. And there's been a couple times where they haven't been the better

team, especially over 60 minutes, and they've still won. Yeah, to have lost twice in regulation in 29 games, to be 21, 2, and 6 while going over in three shootouts is just insane, right? I mean, their record probably undersells just how dominant they've been. And, you know, they've got this top end of the lineup that's outscoring the opposition, what, three to one, four to one, three and a half to one at least. And, you know, Nathan McKinnon is up 41 to 10 at 5.15. Right. Okay. So, yeah, proper four plus to one.

The Seattle Cracken as a team have scored 42, five-on-five goals. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And, you know, I, I mean, again, this is going to come back to. something that I've been thinking about a lot as in my day-to-day in the Vancouver market, people talk about, you know, well, should they be considering selling some of the vets who aren't expiring UFAs? And it's just like not just that Colorado's amassed this talent and not just the way that

they're performing, but it's that they belong to this group or this conglomerate with, you know, Arsenal who's at the top of the EPL table and the L.A. Rams who are at the top of the NFC and the Denver Nuggets, right? And that it's very clear that there's this overall apparatus, right, within that sort of cranky sports group that's sharing information and collecting performance data at elevation from soccer, from football, and applying it in a cross-disciplinary way. And it shows in terms of how they acquire players. You know, how they improve the guys who are there, how specific they're able to be in terms of what they're looking for. And I don't just mean guys like Sam Malinsky, who's like perfectly calibrated to be their third pair defender.

I even mean the seventh guy, Jack Akon, who's like the second coming of Jacob McDonald. I mean, it just feels so thoughtful when you watch them play and so holistic. And I sort of wonder about some of the NHL ownership groups that where, you know, they just own an NHL team or where the NHL team's, by far your biggest team, or where you're divorced from the sorts of resources and best practice sharing and sort of global thinking that groups like the cranky group are going to have in terms of empowering an NHL management group, you know, you probably throw the Harris group Fenway. I mean, there's an increasing number of these. And I do sort of wonder if there's this in combination with cap growth, if it's going to be, if it's going, if it should

reorient the thinking, especially of, you know, not mom and pop, but a sort of more standalone NHL hockey operations departments that work for more standalone, uh, hockey or NHL owners, um, just about sort of the, the level you have to hit how cutting edge you have to be, how you have to think about amassing and accumulating talent because I've been thinking for a while that with VC money and with the game changing a bit that there were going to be

real sharps at the table now and it feels like this is that manifest and I wonder if we're not even properly thinking about the extent to which NHL teams functioning the way NHL teams typically have

that five years ago would have been just like oh you know it's too bad they're not trying to be a little bit more cutting edge are now very much a fly to the avalanche, not just this avalanche team, but the method of operation, right, to their boot. Now, that was an opening monologue. No, I completely agree. I mean, what they're doing now is wild, not only within the context of this season and the

results they're churning out, but I think what they've built along the way and sort of, if you're another team right now that's near the bottom of the standings trying to have this internal conversation about like how we get there and what it'll entail. And I think we should actually have a like a more fully formed conversation about rebuilding

because we started it on your show on Friday on Canucks Talk and I really enjoyed it. I thought there was some salient points. I kind of want to build that out here on the Sunday special as well. So let's take a break real quick and then we'll come back. We'll jump right back into it. You're listening to the HockeyPEDEO Cast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. We're back here on the Hockey, Ocast for our Sunday special,

joined by Tom is Drans. Tom. Before we went to break, we started talking about rebuilding, and I was discussing this with our palsy warrior on Friday show, and then with you afterwards on Canucks Talk, and I thought this was a good opportunity for us to keep it going, because the more I've been thinking about this and we're approaching the part of the season now we're hopefully we're going to see trade activity drummed up, start to see teams side themselves

as either buyers or sellers and try to get out of that mushy metal, hopefully. I feel like I've come around on this idea that because of the new market dynamics with the cap going up, with the new CBA coming in, how that's going to kind of need to change the way some of these teams operate as you were hinting out with what the abs have been doing, I feel like it's actually pushing teams more in the direction now of incentivizing them to actually rebuild properly. Now, I feel like that first step for a team that you cover, like the Vancouver Canucks,

is probably the toughest one to get to in that acknowledgement and finally kind of pulling the trigger on it. But once you start, and it might be because we've seen some early returns that have been, I think, pretty favorable for teams that have been rebukes. building recently and we can talk more about that as well if you want but I feel like just because of how it'll be easier as we discussed for teams to retain the good teams to retain all of their best players moving forward not being in a cap crunch anymore and especially until September 15th when they can offer all their most promising or most expensive guys that come up the eighth year

as we've seen already with a team like the Panthers less talent available on the market in unrestricted free agency and in the trade market, it makes draft picks and draft capital that much more valuable for teams on the way up that have visions of getting there to draft and develop those homegrown guys. And so firmly positioning yourself in that spot while taking the role of a seller

and cashing in on that supply and demand ratio we're seeing right now and getting maybe better acquisition costs for some of your rental players, I feel like it's become such a no-brainer and I'm not sure. I'm sure you get a lot of pushback on that here locally whenever you suggest that for the Canucks but it's kind of becoming undeniable I think at this point yeah and it's you know I mean we're only a few years removed from at this point in the season you typically have two or three teams minus 30 or below goal differential

right and sometimes more significant than that right I mean what was it that remember that shark's team from two years ago that didn't even finish last in the standings like they finished ahead of the black ox they were minus 53 after 27 games on this date in uh in 2023 like we had these teams that felt hopeless right that that felt like a free two points for their opponent on any given night and while that is not a good thing by any means in terms of the competitive balance in the league or our enjoyment night tonight uh channel surfing um and watching games, you know, the rewards for the teams that fit that description, right?

I mean, you could go back and it's like, oh, the Blue Jackets were minus 30 after 25 games. They have Ventilly now, right? And I'm Ducks. They have Leo Carlson, right? The rewards are very clear just two years later as we sort of look at these teams. And what's sort of interesting right now is there is actually tremendous parity in the league at this moment,

in part because it just feels like the next era of what the sharks and the Blackhawks and the Blue Jackets have been the last three years hasn't been born yet. Because the teams that we sort of identify as the candidates to do so, whether it's Calgary, whether it's Vancouver. Nashville, Seattle.

Nashville and Seattle. Nashville and Seattle, you know, haven't decided to do that yet. New York, I'd put the Rangers in there. And they haven't decided to steer into that direction, to steer into the skids and then, you know, put an ellipsis there yet. Some of them probably will, right? Like I'd imagine that some of them probably will because I think your point is correct. If we're in a moment where player acquisition is going to be even more difficult because there's not the same pressure on good teams to make difficult decisions in terms of keeping their group together, you know, then that puts, I think, a really.

huge emphasis on the sort of available modes or the still available modes of acquisition, which is not going to be unrestricted free agency the way it typically has been. And frankly, it might not even be trade, the trade market, because these are the sorts of binds that teams aren't in. They don't have to worry about their expiring third contract guy who's a year away from a UFA, but has ARB rights, right? Just a totally different set of considerations for teams in terms of retaining their own players. I think we've seen it like I think the ducks and honestly the blues the year prior with

the Cam Fowler trade are sort of the most interesting examples where sort of the trades that have helped boost them whether it was Fowler to St. Louis and paradoxically the ducks getting Truba or and Crider was truly like acquiring the guys that of course were available right like the we didn't expect what we've seen out of Crider out of from Crider this season and by the way neither did the league or he would have gone for an awful lot more, right? Like he would have demanded an awful lot more on the trade market. So, you know, you really are too sifting through less appealing options as NHL teams on the trade market. So what does that leave?

Well, it does leave the draft, right? And whether it's the draft itself or player development, right, the sort of stage that comes after that. I mean, I do think that's where you have to go if you're at the bottom, I think. especially because, like, Alex Tuck's not fixing the Calgary Flames, right? I mean, even if you want to dream pie in the sky, you know, that's not, that's not exactly the prince that was promised in the 2026 free agent class, right, that teams might have been getting starry-eyed and dreaming about perhaps before a certain Edmont & Noiler signed to their extension. I just think what's so interesting right now, and you were kind of getting to this,

but I don't think you hit it exactly. is this gap that we're in right now that I think we will get to at some point in that the teams that are at the bottom are the ones who are more veteran-based right now that haven't undergone that initial stage, right? And generally that, as you talked about, is reserved for the truly bad teams that have gutted themselves already and have picked for a second overall the past couple years

and just haven't necessarily gotten those guys because they're either still in the NCAA or whatever or they're coming up and, you know, struggling a little bit with lack of help around them. So they're still kind of working their way up and it's going to take them a couple of years to dig out of that hole. That's not the case right now. The teams that previously went through that that you listed have started to get some results along the way. Now, you know, we can quibble with whether they've quote unquote arrived, even though everyone was quick to talk about how the Blackhawks have finally turned that corner and then you look at their recent results and some of the underlying numbers, the sharks as well, right? it's not necessarily there yet for them,

yet it's undeniably much more promising, not only for the long term, obviously, but even clearly the present, if you just look at the standings, where the teams who previously would have been reluctant to rebuild because of the composition of their roster could have pointed to the fact that, oh, well, we're 18th and point percentage halfway through the year,

so we're not going to rebuild because we're close to the playoff bubble. That's not even the case for these teams anymore. The alternative is like, all right, we don't want to be bad. it's like, if you're, if you're the KMex, you're 31st in the league and point your percentage right now. Yeah. Well, but. Is there a meaningful difference between being this bad without trying to be bad and actually trying to benefit from it so future?

But I think the thing is like, you talked about the three teams that are top five, both offensively and defensively. Yeah. We talked about the avalanche being this juggernaut that is leaps and bounds of higher quality, uh, through the first approaching 30 games of the season. We have this incredible level of stratific. but it's not this type of stratification we're used to. It's not a bell curve because the fat part of it extends all the way to the end, right?

There are four or five special teams, but the parity outside of that is totally different. So we only have five teams that are on pace for or the, sorry, that are less than 500 by point percentage. We only have, like, we don't have a single team in the NHL that's not pacing to be at least a 70 point team at this point. at this point in the season, right? The mushy middle now extends from like the eighth best team in the league to maybe the 30, at least the 30th team, right? Like at least the 29th team might extend all the way through the 20s. Because that's where you start to get to like Philadelphia who's in a playoff spot right now

or like the New York Rangers who, you know, I think a lot of people expect to be more formidable over the second half of the season or the San Jose sharks who, you know, aren't good structurally, but they have Macklin Celebrini and Will Smith, and if you're not on your game on any given night, those guys can kill you dead or Ascarov can steal it from you, right? So I think what probably is going to prevent or delay what to us from the outside with out the skin in the game of explaining to an owner why they should willingly invest

in accumulating talent by not being intentionally good for a year or two is that I think the way that what a bad team looks like today in the NHL is not something that we're used to. Like even the teams that we think are pretty cooked or pretty juiceless or really need to take a long, hard look and think about what their future is, they still have five or six like excellent players, not just like good players, but like excellent players, right? You're still talking about guys like Katrie.

or Uyghur or Dustin Wolf. You're still talking about Roman Yossi and Ryan O'Reilly. Matthew Wood. And Luke Evangelista. You're still talking about Quinn Hughes and Elias Pedersen and Thatcher Demko or whatever. And that just feels different from the conversations that have surrounded. So I can hear these conversations or I can see these conversations in various online spaces. And people will straight up say bad teams don't have, you know, defenders like Anderson and Weeger.

and a stud goalie like Dustin Wolf or bad players don't have a Norris caliber defender on their roster and it's like well they do now they do now because and there's a flatten there's been a flattening at the bottom but that bottom extends so much higher than people are prepared to admit that this parodies come attached to a lack of parity at the championship level right that I don't think people are prepared for which is why we see the same teams in the conference final year over year,

but we see enough mix-ups in terms of the stuff in the middle, who makes the playoffs, who's in the first round, that I feel like it's being ignored, perhaps cynically, because it's easier to just pretend that there's still this just get in and anything can happen element governing the league, when in fact what's mid now is far closer to actually bad than it ever has been, at least in the last decade.

I just feel like from a self-president, preservation perspective and relaying a message whether it's up to your owner if you're in front office right now or to your fan base. Yeah. Isn't it an easier message to relay to say we're bad right now if you look at the standings because we are trying to be bad as opposed to we're bad and we don't know why we're bad and we haven't been trying to be bad? Like I'm not trying to be like overly simplistic about this, but I just for a team like

the Canucks who are 31st right now in points percentage and have been really pushing back against this notion for many years now with different front office voices along the way and are reaching this crossroads as we heard this weekend with the report by Elliot Freeman on Harkinand

in Canada that they at least had a conversation or preliminary one with the devils about Quinn Hughes I thought it was very bullish for the devils that Quinn Hughes in your tweet referred to their GM as Fitsy Oh I don't think so. Okay. You thought that was bullish? I thought that was pretty bullish.

No, everyone, everyone calls Tom Fitzgerald Fitsy, and in Quinn Hughes's case, also his dad, Jim Hughes, and Tom Fitzgerald were like old teammates, I think, in college, and Tom Fitzgerald's also on the U.S. Oh, there's a pre-existing relationship.

That's supposed to be there. Well, he's also, he's the GM of his, he's his brother's GM. He's a much deeper hole here, my mind. And he works for the U.S. national team. Right. It'd be like, I bet you he'd call Bill Guerin Billy,

and that doesn't mean the Wilder going to get him. Okay, anyways, if you're the 31st ranked team right now, I just, the idea of we can't trade our best player, because imagine how bad we're going to be. It's like, yeah. I mean, you're going to be a lot worse, but functionally, does that really matter compared to what is going on right now?

Yeah, no, I mean, I agree with you, but, you know, the other framing is we're six points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand. I know it's exhausting, but that's the other framing. And, and in fact, in terms of explaining it to casuals who aren't thinking about this sort of stuff and the stratification of the NHL and the best practices that are giving small accumulating edges to the Tampa Bay Lightning and the Carolina Hurricanes and the Colorado Avalanche and how, you know, the idea of even considering. that you should, like, for so many fans, the notion that X first liner or X second pair defenseman or X rookie needs to be considered a depreciating asset, given how far away you are from being one of the contender to your teams is actually a very difficult sell relative to the, well, we've had injuries and we're six points out of a playoff spot with a game in hand. So tune in for the latter 50 games, we'll ultimately finish.

10 points out, but that's not clear to you and won't be until March because you struggle to understand rate stats. Yeah. I mean, that's, I know, I know that's cynical, but it's how it is. I know. We can save the, we could do a full show, I think, about quick views. So I feel like I don't want to get into it right now. About Quinn?

Yeah. Yeah. So we should save that. But on the know, because I mentioned the devil's there in Fitsy, of course. I just want to, you know, we have these recurring bits here. We have the Ilya Proto one, of course, with our. updates. We've got the Devils as well. Yeah.

Stemning from our argument about them a couple of weeks ago. Tough week for me. Now you were quick to take a victory lap. Last week, I will just note five straight regulation losses in which they were outscored 20 to 7. Yep. The last 237 minutes of Devils game time, two goals scored by them, a power play goal by Timelmeyer, and a 5-on-5 goal by Timelmeyer. I can't believe I almost let you gaslight me into thinking that a four. forward group that features, Stefan Nason, Andre Pallat, Connor, Paul Cotter, Luke Lennon,

Uho Lammocko, and the newest edition, Angus Crookshank, was remotely good enough for a team that should really be the second and second best team in their own division. Yeah, my favorite was the loss to Dallas and I sent you the image immediately because there was this like, you know, some pun on Ottinger's name, right? And it was like, you ought to know or something, right? after they after a shutout victory but the highlight clip was the clandine jamming a puck into his on the breakaway right and it's like yeah I mean you ought to know like why are you why are you giving this pictorial backhanded compliment to jake ottinger feels like he deserves better um yeah I mean

look they're gonna lack some juice but they're gonna shoot better than two and a half percent and I still I still think they're going to be able to keep their head above water long enough for jack use to come back and for their potential to be realized. But also, it makes sense why, given these dynamics, and also, honestly, given how savvy that ownership group generally is, why they're the team that seems to be front and center in a variety of trade rumors, not just on the potentially available Norris trophy level defenders who happen to have multiple brothers that play for your team file, but also on the forward file and the center file and the Nashville predators and what will they do file. So, you know, of course,

like this team should be aggressive. They do need help. But I still think there's enough there that they'll hold the forward. But bad week for me. Kudos to you. The bad news is there's seventh in the metro now. Yeah. In points percentage. The good news is to your point about the standings. Yes. Eight in the metro is Columbus with 32 points. Third in the metro is the islanders, as we're recording with 35. So a three point gap and they're obviously in there listen i just yeah no but i right now right now from the first wild card spot the penguins right and and really you can throw the montreal canadians in too um there is just like a hilarious number there is six teams in the east with 33 points on the on the um on the nose uh with really

just the difference being games played and then columbus at 32 right i mean every team is one bad week away from chaos and every team is one good week away from I'm feeling like they're on the rise. You mentioned the link to the Predators for the Devils. And I do think that as we've seen over the past year or two, it's a pretty fruitful practice to trade with Barry Trots at this point. So I think they're on the right path there. Even if you're trading for his like clearly mid players,

they might go Jankowski on you. Yeah, they certainly could. Tired, Wired, Inspired. Okay. I'm here for this. Tired Stephen Stamco's. And I do not understand this for most teams, really at this point, ones that are serious about being good in 2025,

but the devils especially, I think there is obviously still, he's a generational shooter. If you allow him to tee it up from his spot on the ice, he's going to hammer it and probably beat the goalie. And I think that would be helpful for all the playmakers they have at full health. I do just want to know it despite the contract, and it's what, $8 million for two more seasons after this one.

he has five, five-on-five points so far this year, which makes him a solid Winnipeg Jets forward. 5-1-5 goals the last five years, 22, 16, 14, 11 on pace for six this year. Yeah. And so I'm out on that for all those reasons. He's had some pretty serious lower body injuries and it just feels like it's zapped the power in his stride. Yeah, and even dating back to the Tampa, end of the Tampa Bay Run, like 5-15, it's a different ball game, unfortunately. I thought a little bit about it after the Palmieri play, that incredible piece of work from Palmieri to set up a goal after on it, I was like sneakily on his way off the ice following a torn. It was an ACL, right?

And I was thinking about, because I don't think it was the ACL for Stamcoast, but it was the severe groin injury after he worked so hard to come back. And then he scored that goal on and Tor, I think it was his groin. Maybe it was something lower down in the lower body. But Tor is groin on the same play. I was thinking about that. So while I think that the time has come at which Stamcoast is like a true DH, unfortunately, at this stage of his career, I do just want to note what a stone cold badass he was. Oh, unbelievable. Yeah.

On the note of Stamcoast, I was watching that Mammoth Canucksian, and we were texting at the time. And I, like, legit thought that obviously the first injury that started those chain up events for him. Yes. crashing into the post in Boston, I believe. I thought that happened to Logan Cooley. Yeah, right before Sochi, too, which sucked. I thought it was like, and he looked terrified, like the camera zoomed on his face as he was laying on the ice. And I'm like, oh, my God.

Well, his knee looked like it bent the wrong direction. And then you watch it and, like, I don't know how he escaped it. Now he did wind up, he came back and then he missed their next game in Calgary and they had no juice offensively as you'd expect without him. But yeah, I was just watching that. And I was like, man, thank God. Because that's the second close call he's had here in close succession now after that knee on knee or whatever he had against the blues. recently. Wired. Ryan O'Reilly. Yeah. Contractually, 4.5 million, just for next year. His skill set, despite the fact that he's

turning 35, is still so elite. Face off guy, doesn't take penalties. Brilliant passer. Awesome net front. 515 impacts through the roof. Yeah. And I think all those would be great ads for the devils considering what they need. I think, I think, too, you know, you put him with a big body like Meyer or a sort of savvy, a guy who's got some savvy in the area game like Gritsyuk and I think you're cooking, right? I mean, both of those guys feel like good analogs to be his David Perron in New Jersey. I mean, not that he's at the same stage of his career when him and Peron were legitimately the smartest line in hockey. But I mean, you can so easily see how he'd compliment and fit with and add a sort of third wave that looks different, feels

different, but can still dominate play and be productive to that lineup. I think even if you're pushing for offense in the midst of a game, just going the nuclear option of playing him with Jack Hughes and just for Brat and having him take the face off and then not do any puck carrying whatsoever and just get around to the net and then finish in tight. I think that's pretty brilliant. Inspired, though, is Luke Evangelista, who you mentioned. Right.

And he's gotten to bump up after like whatever happened this past off season where they seem like reluctant to commit to a long term. He winds up signing at two-year bridge, I believe, at $3 million per. starts the year slow Another bad bet for the Pradese A horrible bet And we've spoken about On a bunch

The last time they're in the playoffs I thought he was probably Their most dangerous player In that series He's not so much juice What is he 23, 24 years old And he's also got just such a weird amount of deception

I mean we haven't talked Ryan Leonard yet And we should despite the injury But you know The same thing where Ryan Leonard is so impossible Because whatever you do you're wrong like just the way that he looks like he's going to pass when he shoots or looks like he's going to shoot when he passes is through the roof

and then every every opponent that plays this guy hates him right like there's an element of that to his game too which I think we know the devils could use yeah I think 19 points 15 other than primary he's looked awesome on the top line so yeah I I'm all in on Luke evangelista being the sort of under the radar relatively considering the name stature of the other guys on the predators and that taking a lot of our attention and like the smart team being like, I should take Luke Evangelista instead

and that working out for them. Want to end with Ryan Leonard? Yeah, I just, I don't know why I'd never thought that the guy at the flank, right, on their downside, downhill side on the half wall, should instead of winding up and crushing

any rebound kicked out to them from the point, should just pop it back into the center of the ice. I don't know why no one had ever, Or I certainly had never thought that that was an option when I was watching games live. But Leonard set up two goals off of it. They were both beauties, just like little touch passes. And he does a little half wind up too. So he even sells it before he does it, which is the most Ryan Leonard thing ever.

And then, you know, he set up a Wilson goal like that. He set up a Vetchkin one with a backdoor pass. Absolutely brilliant. I mean, what a fun player. And it just absolutely sucks that we don't know when we'll see him again. Yeah. It's such a bummer that he took that shot. Um, from Jacob Trubon on Friday because he had been cooking to such a large degree, right?

He had that four point game in San Jose, including that, that movie puts on, on Timothy Lilligrin to cap it off. Then he starts off that game against the ducks. He gets a breakaway in the first shift, rings it off the bar later. And then now he's going to be out for an extended period of time, hopefully he back because he had just completely unlocked their power play, as you mentioned, and was so fun to watch. And this cap team, as we were discussed, is for redoing. And we should probably revisit maybe after the new year or watch. ability rankings now that we've seen a good call good amount of games they're sky rocked they're number two for me behind the abs yeah and part of it is the broadcast is so elite like joe b and locker i love that

in watching that game on friday they're so like real recognized real they're like so happy to acknowledge good plays by the other team like they were obsessed with becket seneca in that game yeah like they're like this is our first time seeing him and he rocks and i'm like yes yes he does but also thank you because you watch the abs broadcast and they're like what a lucky play by becket seneca it's like please just acknowledge it's okay the other team's good too yeah can we should we do we have time to for some bennett seneca or can we should we bookmark it you got sam sam bennett seneca i do have sam bennett seneca seneca i well you've always got time for beckett seneca okay i i was trying to think through who else is a giant playmaking winger right because

he's going to score goals don't get me wrong but what stands out when you watch him is the way that he marauds around the ice just using his size and winning a ton of battles the juice he's got as a puck carrier but then his passing is wildly good for a winger especially a winger his size and i was trying to think through like who else is a past first power winger and the only guy i could really think up uh was randon and and it just got me sort of thinking like is that the comp for seneca is that is that the bull case yeah i mean he's going to certainly need to put on some strength. Yes.

Which he will. But so did Renan. He started cooking it at the same age, right? Yeah. I mean, Renan was cooking at the age at the same age. I just, I don't think that that comp is an unfair one in terms of what the ceiling case looks like. He just has, like, he already has an, and listen, like, part of it is because of the

relative stages of their career. Yeah. Like, Randon is so good down low now. Yes. And just, like, shrugging off defenders and bringing it out and then being a dual threat but Seneca already at this point I find is so much more dynamic as a puck carrier right right like he he does stuff off the rush dating back to his major junior days but even now jumping into the NHL where he's like in that three on three against the caps he like tried this crazy like through the leg spin around moved it almost worked yeah and I think more than anything what this really sort of underpins is that I've been trying to come up with like a comp like but but I think he might be pretty unique I really am struggling to come up with a player who in terms of being on puck first, that dangerous off the rush, but like very much a dual threat, even leaning toward the pass, but playing on the wing. I mean, I really find it

difficult to think through players I've seen that even look like this just in terms of when they're on the ice, like Hosa maybe. I mean, I've been really sort of wrestling with it. And the Rantanin thing was just like the closest I could come in terms of reframing it as a, just like a comparable to try and make sense of what we're seeing because I mean, he has a bit of a unicorn feel when you watch him play right now and it's been a ton of fun to watch. Yeah, I loved, uh, I'm obviously, I've obviously been very preoccupied. While you were at, uh, Canucks Mammoth, I loved watching, and I was watching that too, um,

but dual screen experience. I love that the Ducks Caps game. Yeah. I'm already excited for the next one. It was just like, aside from the trouba hit on, on Leonard and the unfortunate outcome, it was just such ethical hooping for both sides. Just going back and forth, just being like, we have a bunch of cool players and we're going to try stuff and get a lot of offense going. And it was the perfect outcome. Yeah. On that note, we had a listener ask us to end these shows instead of just talking about games that already have happened.

Let's look ahead to games that are coming this week as a bit of a guide for what to prioritize or what to look out for. And I've got a pair for you. And they're both on the same night, unfortunately. Although I think they're spaced out timing-wise, so you can get to both. On Thursday evening. Yes. A busy night in the nature. schedule.

Hurricanes at Capitals, which is looking like a battle for first in the metro and those two teams dating back to last year and then their playoff series really don't like each other. So not having Leonard around for that, I think it'll take a bit of the enjoyment out of it for me, but still I think it'll be a really fun matchup. And then Panthers at Avs. Not that the Panthers have been playing great hockey, although they're getting into some fun shootouts, the one against the Blue Jackets most recently. But that does feel like we've spoken about the Aves having some of these statement games.

to the repertoire of like we care about this one because it's either on a national stage or the opponent calls for it and not that the panthers record does this season but obviously their stature is back-to-back champions and a team that's going to be used as a measuring stick for everyone regardless of their injuries I feel like that seems like an abs lay the smackdown and bring their absolute fastest fastball possible in that night so I feel like I'll be watching that So I think those two on Thursday are kind of the top of the list for me. I'm going to pander to the Canadian audience. You're welcome, Sportsnet.

Oilers go east and play a back-to-back set. But the Sunday night, McDavid on Montreal ice, right, given sort of the aesthetic quality of how the haps play in combination with the fact that the Oilers appear to have got that annual be in their bonnet where they really start to run downhill. I don't think it's a coincidence that that coincides with Zach Hyman's return, by the way. I think there's a straw that stirs the drink element that he brings. How good is Leon Dreisel, though, that McDavid, who didn't really look like himself for a lot of the start of the season, and that's been the case for previous ones as well,

and then he works his way into form, but he finally gets R&H back, he gets Hyman back. They put that line together. That was awesome last year, and they just go off, right? Right. And it's awesome. It makes sense. Like, they compliment each other very well. It's important they get McDavid going.

Meanwhile, you've got Dreisidel out there playing with Matthew Savoy and the Sillipar goals in. Yeah. And it just, like, does not matter who's out there with it because they're going to rock and score a bunch of gold. And he does it again. Do you want a 75-point version of Jack Roselvic? I'm your guy. Only on Drysaitle. It's like, we got McDavid going.

Meanwhile, Aldrich Seidel just does whatever with whoever. Picking his teeth. Yeah, it's very cool. Anyway, that Sunday night game, that's going to be must watch for me. All right. Well, we left a lot on the table here. We wanted to talk more about trade stuff, the Kings who had filled no in rumors, and then Pete DeBurr as well.

We can get that stuff next week. I'll let you plug whatever you want on the way out. Canucks talk covering the best ongoing drama in hockey. Come on, you'll be more enthusiastic on that. Canucks talk. Sportsnet 650. That's noon to 2 p.m. Pacific time, Monday to Friday,

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