The Hockey PDOcast - The story of the Tkachuk Huberdeau trade

Episode Date: November 16, 2022

Dimitri is joined for the first time ever by Julian McKenzie from The Athletic. Julian just released a piece "The story of the Matthew Tkachuk-Jonathan Huberdeau trade". The guys dive into the process and details Julian found while writing the story.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

since 2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the Hockey PEOCast. My name is Dimitri Filippovich and joining me somehow for the first time ever. My pal, Julian McKenzie. Julian, what's going on, man? Dude, man, it's kind of funny. It's somehow for the first time because we've connected on the internet a bunch of times where we've never done any type of podcast or thing together. So it's an absolute honor to be on with you and especially on the show. Congrats again on this new show. man. I appreciate it. Yeah, we've, we've tried to connect a number of times. I've tried to have you on my show. You tried to have me on your shows. And it's like, we've never been able to make the timing work. So this is perfect. And it's a great opportunity for us to finally do it because we've got a really, really meaty topic to get into here.

You just published kind of like, I don't know how you describe it. It's sort of like almost like a tell all or like an oral history of the, the blockbuster offseason trade that involved Matthew Kachuk, Jonathan Hubert O, and McKenzie Weeger. and I wanted to use these 25 minutes here in the first block of the show today to really just kind of talk through the process of putting it together and kind of what you learned throughout it and what the big takeaways were because I think, you know, I can speak for myself here, but I'm sure all the fans as well and can feel the same way. The peak behind the curtains of like seeing the machinations of how something like this comes together is so fascinating, especially a trade of this magnitude. but I think any sort of transaction in the NHL because we're often left like getting breadcrumbs and generally its teams, especially like well-run organizations, choosing very deliberately what they release to insiders to get out in the public in terms of their angle and what narrative they want to push. And so when we see something like this of like kind of like a really just open description of Matthew Kach's agent calling Brad Tree Living and then kind of how that started the snowball effect. and how it happened within five days. It's really cool. So I really enjoyed this piece,

and that's why I wanted to do this with you. But I think fans really appreciate this sort of stuff because it's so rare that we get to see how the sausage is made in a way. Yeah. And like I really wanted it to be shown in an oral history type of way as opposed to me trying to describe the story just because I feel like, I don't know, when you see, when you read a piece like this

and you see that like Alan Walsh sent this or like Jonathan or Jean-Ataire Bardo said this or or or McKenzie Weeger said this. I feel like it kind of resonates more for these types of pieces, not to say that other types of stories where you have the narrator detailing every single possible detail and throwing in a quote here and there isn't as effective. But I just think considering just some of the stuff I had and in some of the interviews I had to do to make the story work like, I don't know. Like I felt like it was just like a really good opportunity to do that.

I'm also a big fan of putting together oral histories. They take a lot of work, but when you're able to, like, I love, I love, I know this happened a lot with like the Huberto comments and the Zito comments, but like one guy says one thing and then you juxtapose it with something else. Like Zito say, like, you know what? I'm not going to go in on what was said in the conversation that I had with Jonathan. And then Jonathan be like, well, he only said 10 words to me. Like, I love putting stuff like that together.

I really like, I want to be a better storyteller. and I think just that way of doing it was just the best way for me to tell that story. Well, I guess in a way, it is a serious topic. Like in the grand scheme of things of life, it's not for hockey fans. It is especially Flames fans and Panthers fans. It's a very serious transaction that happened between their two favorite teams. But I love the unintentional comedy of oral histories like this where you can present a comment and it's sort of there's an implication, but you're just presenting what the person said, right?

And I actually laughed hysterically when I was. I was reading it. And I think you asked Bill Zito what he was doing the night that the trade, the, the, the trade who actually officially went through. And he's like, oh, it's personal. I can't tell you. And, uh, I don't know, I don't know what he was doing that night, but maybe we should be congratulating him.

I don't know. It sounds like he was having a fun night. Um, I'll say this. Yeah. I'll say this. I think for every, almost every person I spoke to for that interview, definitely true living. And, and Bill, I think was one of the first one. that was that question about what was the first what was the first non-hockey thing you did

after the trade was over that tried to make that the first question just because i felt like that's just a good way of kind of easing everyone up at the beginning so that way you're not just jumping into it being like all right so the trade what happened uh i think for jonathan i think the first thing i asked him was on a scale of one to ten how how fed up of you are you of talking about the trade because he had been like i asked him about this like during training camp and like even then, like people were saying like, well, yeah, man, like the trade, the trade, the trade. And of course, like, it's his first time in that organization. So I was just trying my absolute best to kind of ease everyone up and make people feel relaxed

at the beginning. But I know Zeta was saying like, okay, I think I watched TV. I think I did this. That's a good question. Brad Trillivings answer, the fact that after all of that, you just sit in your office and you go to your beer fridge and you take out a beer and you just drink it. And you're just thinking, this is the most mental. exhausting week as I've ever had in my career.

Like, that was very personable. That was very honest. And I think that's why, like, when I got answers like that, that's what I knew, like, okay, I have a good piece. It's not just, I'll give Bradden a lot of credit for it because we sat down for like 30 minutes and talked about this. Like, he tried his best to come across as personable and not try to sound like a robot. And I hope that people get that same feeling from him and some of the other characters in

the story. I think the, the relatability of it. for a lot of the main characters in the story is very, comes across very well from the element of, uh, finding out about the news on Twitter, which is how a lot of us find out about stuff, right? You'd think that,

especially if you're involved, you'd think that, all right, you're, you're, you're, you're probably gonna hear before everyone else and know,

and then in some instances, that wasn't the case here. And then, you know, the comments that from Jonathan Hubbard, I actually think they were from, from his agent Al-Lowl, but it really stuck,

stuck out to me was he just wanted to like, feel appreciated and wanted. And that's something that I think we can all kind of relate to. And it's, and it's something we don't typically ascribe to, to professional athletes because they've spent their entire lives since they were, you know, kids basically,

if they're really good at the sport, basically being like put up on this pedestal and cherished and everyone wants a piece of you. And so for, for a player to kind of, like, reflect on that and actually just show that side of kind of humanity is very relatable.

Yeah. Well, there's a bigger part of the, I don't know how much bigger of a part it was, but there's a part of the story that never made it to the final cut, which details a conversation between Bill and Alan Walsh, like weeks before the trade even happens. Essentially what happens is that Alan is kind of led to believe

that he's negotiating an extension for Jonathan, but the conversation doesn't really turn out that way. And then, like, Alan kind of leaves it thinking, well, something's off. and like I would have loved like I would have loved to have kept that part in because I think that would have ultimately like like you read that part and then you get to Jonathan and how he's feeling and wanted to be wanted like I would feel that would just kind of ramp that up even more but we live in a world of world of word counts so like that didn't make it but like I totally relate to the idea of Jonathan you know being in a situation where you've been appreciated or you feel like you've been in a situation where you felt you were being appreciated. for so long and then your GM or your boss just calls you and it's like hey thanks for everything man we're trading you to this place you know like I can I can I shouldn't say relate I sympathize with that because this is a guy who was drafted by the Panthers spent as long as he did in that organization comes off his best season with the organization to the point where and I get this

differs on who you talk to but he's he's a borderline he was a borderline MVP candidate I think you can agree he was that. We can't say he was a veritable one, but I think he was borderline. And he finally helps his team get through to the second round of something they hadn't done since like 96. You go through all of that and you're hoping, you know what, man? Like next year we could find a way to get over that hump and build off a president's trophy winning season. And it's like, nah, bro, you're getting sent to Calgary because we want Matthew Kachuk on our team. Like I feel for him. Well, and that's such a fascinating element of the trading. You mentioned how, you know, for the sign and trade element, it was a very unique move in that regard. But I think also

from the angle of a lot of these, all of the main pieces were kind of at the apex of their career. You know, differing in terms of age. And, you know, from Matthew Kuchuk's perspective, the most recent time we'd seen him on the ice was a pretty embarrassing defeat at the hands of the Edmonton Oilers. And so that wasn't necessarily a pinnacle for him by any means. But in terms are the seasons they had, right? The number of points, all of them put up the accolades they'd received, the fact that, you know, both teams were incredibly successful throughout the regular season and had kind of taken their franchises to new heights. And so all of a sudden, to kind of flip the script like that, it's very rare, like, especially in such a conservative league where once a team

gets an elite player or someone that they've drafted, developed, like they do everything possible to keep them around for as long as they humanly can. Yeah. Man, like, you, you, you, You nailed it right there on the head. Absolutely. And the fact that, like, Bill Zito was, he said himself, like, this was so hard to just kind of put those guys, even if they were possibly at the, like, they're in, like, that peak year. Like, we look at guys when they reach 28, 32.

That's like, that should be, like, the best years of their career. And that's a gamble in itself, right? Like, you're, you're sacrificing for your defense corps. And now they're dealing with Aaron Eckbladden and what he's got going on. So that's obviously taking a hit. Jonathan Ubertoe, again, like, he had the best year of his career. career and was I was playing with some really good players in Florida. Like that was going to be a risk you were going to run before a guy like Matthew Kachuk,

who I don't have all the fancy stats in front of me, but at least individually, like he's been able to do well on that front with his new team. And he's not in that 2832 range. Like he still has his best years ahead of him. Like I can understand why you try to make that risk. And again, Bill outlined it as well as he did for my story. Matthew Kachuk is a hell of a player. He's coming off a 40 goal season.

And he's a personality too. Like I also understand why, like, you know, you go to Flame. If I go to Flames games, I'm still seeing a bunch of Kachukh jerseys and control jerseys. Those guys, for the team doing what they can to be less of an individual-minded team and try to be more team focused. Like those two guys meant a lot to that market. Those two guys meant a lot to those fans over there. And, you know, they were really good players for them. They're really amazing talents for that team.

And a guy like Matthew Kachuk, I wonder how I can't imagine Flames fans looking at the team they have now, even though they have all the hopes that they have and seeing Matthew Kachuk doing as well as he's doing in Florida thinking, oh, yeah, you know what, man, you go do your thing. We're not thinking about you. Go off. Do your thing. No, like when a breakup happens and it's still sort of fresh, you think about your ex a little bit. And I think a lot of flames fans, it wouldn't surprise me if they still miss Matthew. Well, at the risk of rubbing salt in the wounds, I'll give you some stats. because I was looking this up, and I've been writing about it recently.

So in 14 games with the Panthers, Matthew Kuchuk has given Florida the full Matthew Kachukchuk experience in every sense of order. He's got 15 assists, which is tied for eighth post. And when the trade happened, I think part of the logic for the Panthers was we've been this incredible rush team in the regular season. We can play incredibly fast, move up and down the ice. It's really fun to watch. It was really successful for us.

But we bump into a team like, I mean, in round one, they got taken to the limit by a very inferior from a talent perspective, Washington Capitals team, but then, you know, bump into Tampa Bay and they just dismantle them defensively and they kind of go out without a whimper getting swept. And so they wanted to change the way they can attack. And Matthew Kachuk is one of the best players in the league at creating from below the goal line. And that's kind of an element that he's brought there. He's got 39 high danger chances, which are tied for fifth most. With him on the ice, the Panthers, you mentioned the fancy stats, have 65% of the expected

goals, shots, and goals scored. I mean, they've been shot and chances like they've been amazing. And the reason why I said it's the full Matthew Kuchuk experience. He's drawn nine penalties. He's taken 11. He's been suspended. Chaos has ensued every time. He certainly leads the league in post whistle scrums initiated and involved in.

And so you're getting the good and the bad. But ultimately the good is so much exceeding of the bad that you take it and you can see why the panthers kind of push the chips in the way they did. And I think they're getting rewarded for it. 100% like it's man you're listing off the statistics when it comes to him banging in those high danger chances working down low and those chances for i could think of a team like calgary that could really use a player like matthew chuk right now because uh without seeing the numbers in front of me like they're converger rate on on them shooting like that's not where it should be they're getting chances but they need a finisher and at some point like i'm not going to raise i'm not going to ring that alarm bell now but like kind of Calgary at some point is going to have to find a way to get some top six guy to bury some goals. I know Tyler Tofoli is picking up his game, Elias Lindholm. Those two guys are working really well together. But the pressure's got to be amplified a little bit more on Jonathan Huberto to produce.

Now some country currently leads the team in scoring. He started off with that six game point streak. But I still think they need some kind of player who can get up there and finish and bury some goals. And if they had a guy like Matthew Chalk still, I mean, obviously they wouldn't have weaker in Huberto. But like that's a guy who would do a great job at burying those chances, especially of the high danger variety. Well, last week I did I did a full flames deep dive with our pal Ken Wilson. And a point I raised was it was a risk for Brad Tray Living to commit to this team the way he did before ever seeing these individual pieces play a single game together. Right.

Like they brought in so many different elements and essentially just spent a bunch of future financial capital. walk themselves into this group for the most part. There's ways to wiggle around it. They could potentially move a defenseman to add one of those top six pieces. But this is kind of the team they're going to have for the next four or five years, for the most part, at least. And, you know, tree living in your piece made this point of all of a sudden,

you're talking about marrying someone that you haven't even dated, right? And I really wonder whether there was any real thought given to, all right, let's go into the season. we just got Weiger and Kachuk. Then, you know, eventually they signed Kodry as well, and that was a no-brainer based on the price they paid, and he's been excellent for them. But you go into the season with these two expiring free agents,

and you see how it works, and then if they mesh well with this group and the team looks as good as you think it could on paper, then you finally commit to them financially. I wonder if there was any thought given to that, or do you think that the scar tissue was still so fresh of what they'd gone through with Goddra and Kachuk, that it was like, we cannot do this again

within another calendar year. And so let's just commit to them long term. Let's give them the money for the next however many years. And we'll deal with the consequences after because we cannot put ourselves through that and we cannot put our fan base through that again. I think of it from Hubertos perspective because he goes through what he goes through with the Florida trade. He ends up in Calgary where his the wounds from him, those are very much still fresh.

And if he goes into that new season and he doesn't have a contract, because remember he's supposed to be a free agent at the end of this season. Yes. Like, how does that affect him? Right? Like, he might worry a lot about, oh, well, you know, is Calgary going to keep me? Am I going to end up in another place? All these people are going to ask questions about my future and where I'm going to end up.

I could think of a market in the eastern part of Canada that would love to have a player like Jonathan Huberto. a god de chenou like they would say in french who would be all over this player and thinking hey maybe he should sign a deal with the much of Canadians and play uh with all the young players being cultivated there there was a lot of pressure that could go on there and i know this so this makes me think of and i know different type of player but phil don't know uh in the 2021 season where there were rumors about about whether or not the canadians were going to resign him to a new contract and there had been like an offer that kind of got leaked to the press and he apparently turned that down or I forget the details of that but like the the contract basically hung over his head and deno had a terrible regular season he did not score a lot and people kind of made him the whipping boy then he ends up having a really good postseason and then you know helps lead the canes to the Stanley Cup final but like that's a guy who was in his contract year and he did not have a good regular season if it wasn't for that playoffs he probably doesn't get the money he

gets in Los Angeles so all that to say like I've seen the other side of it where like, you know, if you go into a final year of your contract and you don't know what's going to happen with your future, it's not every player, not every player will take that as an opportunity to be like, all right, I'm just going to post up my best career numbers. And I mean, there's also other factors that lead to that. But ultimately, I think for Huperdo, a guy who wanted to feel wanted somewhere, and the fact that the Calgary Flames showed that, I think that made it easy for him to say, you know what? I'm very, just going to sign with these guys long term and not have to worry so much about the fact that

like I don't know where I'm going to play next year. So I think the reason why they're kind of in the situation that they're in, at least with him, I think also has to do with what he might be feeling just personally about how his summer has gone and just wanting to feel, you know, like, okay, I want to play on a team that that wants me right now, right? And not put myself in a position where I have to worry about where I'm going to play after. I think, I think that has a lot to do with personal stuff. Wow. I really wish someone would show how much they want me by giving me $84 million. That would be, that would be, that would be nice.

I know, I know. That's right. Here's the thing. I completely agree with you at the same time. I'm sure he'd be highly, highly desired, highly wanted, pursued wine and dine and free agency. If he had played out this year and gone into free agency this coming summer, he was not getting this type of deal on the open market. I mean, he literally couldn't have gotten the eighth year from a new team,

but like he wasn't, he was not going to get, he would have been 30 years old. And I think teams have generally, for the most part, wizened up to, all right, we probably shouldn't be giving six, seven year deals to people who are in their 30s already because we've seen how those tend to age.

And Nelson, Goddry got a seven year deal in Calgary. Yeah, he did. And he might have gotten more. That's true. And he's coming off his best year and a Stanley Cup playoff run. If Jonathan Huberto has himself a real, really good. Here's the one thing. You are absolutely right that GMs share, I mean, at least us,

like people on the internet, people who work in hockey media and all that. Like, we would hesitate at the idea of throwing all this money at a 30, 31 year old. Never underestimate the power of a general manager who has money to burn and aspirations of being a good team. Someone out there might have given him something close to what he ended up getting in Calgary, even if he wasn't going to get an eighth year. I don't know. They might have done that. And that depends on how Huberta would have played this year.

I think someone would have tried. I think someone would have thought about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the cadre point is a good point because he is already 32. So he's got a couple years on him and he got the seven years. Only seven million per only, I say. Yes, that's true.

In air quotes. Because here's a thing. I mean, Chuck, I remember when he got the deal he got, there was a bit of pushback from people from the Panthers, I should say, the eight-year deal. 9.5 per being like, well, this is buying high on him. He's not going to have as many points as he had last year when his on ice percentages were through the roof. He was playing in a perfect spot with Johnny Goddrault.

And like, this is probably going to be his career year offensively. And now he has 20 points in 14 games. And regardless, though, 9.5 million for someone's age 25 to 32 seasons is looking pretty good as a business decision and investment compared to 10.5 for someone who's already in their 30s, right? Like I think the amount of risk attached to that becomes significant. So I just wanted to make that point just so it's not like, it's not like Jonathan Huberto was like,

you know what? Like I really appreciate this attention for Bradtree Living. I want to do you guys a favor and sign right now to make your life easier. Like he got a pretty good deal on this as well. He absolutely did. I don't even know if I consider a favor. Just like I really just looking from his vantage point of like, you know what, man, like this, this team wants me here.

They're trying to, they're trying to win. All right. I'll do this. Yeah, I know. I completely agree with that. Well, okay, so I want to kind of work, like, read between the lines a little bit here before we go from reading your piece because you noted that I believe five days passed between Brad Tree Living officially finding out that could chuck wanted to get traded and then the deal coming together, right? Now, it's funny. You noted it happened on the evening of July 22nd. It had been sort of agreed upon before, but they had to go through the machinations of going through the league office channels and making all that happen. remember that night I was like, it was a beautiful summer evening here, Vancouver. I'm sitting in a beer garden. I'm already a few beers deep. And then I just kind of look at my phone as I do in social settings for some reason. I don't know why. But I look at Twitter and I'm like, oh, my God. And I remember like just saying some words that I probably can't repeat here on radio. But it, it blew my mind.

And I was like, my brain just started racing a million miles an hour. And I don't even cover either team. But I was just thinking like, oh, man, I got to tomorrow morning. I got to get up early and really kind of sink my teeth into this and either do a podcast or write an article about it. And that's that's that's my my thought process for when stuff like this happens. I'm sure it's like that for you as well, especially if it's a team you're covering. It's like this is really fun. But oh, there's going to be a lot of work attached to this as well. Oh, man. I remember that night, I was actually out with a friend. Like we were like hanging out and like walking around and just like casually. I think we spent like a good chunk of the day, like hanging out.

And then like I dropped them off to their apartment and then I get in my car. And then I check my phone. Like, wow, it's pretty late at night. And then I saw the details of the trade. I was like, holy crap, this happened like so late. And yeah, like it was cool to hear from Tree and Zito about how, why this took so long. So like in the afternoon, at least in mountain time, they come together on a deal and the sign in trade portion. and it's like, all right, we have to send this into the league.

And like, they have to go through every single possible nook and cranny to make sure that this works. And because it's a sign and trade, like, they've probably never really encountered it like that before. I think the Kevin Fiala thing is closed because they, but they traded his rights to Los Angeles. And I couldn't think of any other situation that's happened before where a player literally signs and gets the full eight years and then gets flipped off to a completely. different team. I guess if I could redo the story again, it would have been cool, I guess, if I could talk to someone from like the league office

to just kind of get a sense of like, well, from your vantage point, like, what are you guys looking at? But I don't know if they would have made themselves successful. The league office was probably pissed because they're so used to like,

here's a sixth defenseman for a third round pick. That's like the generic NHL transactions. So seeing like someone actually be creative and kind of jump through these hoops. It's like, all right, hold on a second. Like this is a summer evening for us as well. You're giving us, putting a lot on our plate here.

Yeah, like, it's, oh, no, you're going to trade this guy for this guy? That's nothing. I can, I'll even just take this break. But, like, the fact that we had to wait, like, six, seven hours before, like, this actually came through, like, that is, that is insane. And then hearing all the stories from everyone after the fact of, like, how they heard about that was also cool, too. All right. Well, I'm really enjoying this conversation. Hopefully you are as well.

If you are, stick with us. We're going to take a quick break here. And then when we come back, we're going to keep chatting with Julie McKenzie about. about his oral history on the mega trade involving Jonathan Hubertow, Mackenzie Uigh Gichuk, and the Florida Panthers and Calgary Flames from this past off season. You are listening to the HockeyPedio cast streaming live on the Sportsnet Radio Network. I guess here's my question for it.

So it happens in those five days, right? And clearly there's some sort of like, you know, whiplash or kind of like emotional reconciling, like, dream living notes, how, like, disappoint. it and angry he was initially and understandably so because it's like all right now I fundamentally have to change my team and I would have preferred to just have this player here for the rest of their prime. At the same time though, I feel like he couldn't have like it wasn't like he was necessarily blindsided right because I think this is something that we've been you know on the message boards it's one thing to kind of be like rumoring and then it's another thing to actually see this happen

in reality. But I think as soon as he had signed down, that initial three-year bridge deal in 2019, I believe, considering the fact that it was like a pretty openly contentious negotiation. It took up until like a week before the start of the regular season at the time. And his comments, I remember at the time being like, well, I opted for a shorter term deal because I want to keep my options open. I want to see where I'm at at the end of this. It was like, hmm, all right. That's, that's an interesting way to frame this. I think you're kind of telegraping what you mean here. And, you know, it's smart business on Kachan and his agents part, no doubt about it.

Like, I think every young, successful player should be taking themselves up to one year, one year away from unrestricted free agency, because all of a sudden, we've seen this in the NBA, right, this concept of pre-agency where you don't necessarily have that much leverage because you're still an RFA for one more year, but you have this threat, especially with arbitration rights, that if you're not careful here, I will exercise this option to leave here and you won't have anything to show for it. So you better trade me now. And the player like takes full power of their destination or their career and what

they're going to do. And so on the one hand, I'm sure it was a surprise after the season, Cachat had, after the success the flames it had in the regular season. But at the same time, it seems like the writing was kind of on the wall for this. So what I'll say to that is Brad True Living did tell me that like, you know, he did have conversations with, with Craig, like before the final phone call came. I don't know if it's fair to say that he had a feeling that he was going to lean towards the decision that they were ending up picking. But I can imagine if you're in his position, you're probably hoping that you don't have to go along that route of trying to find a way to trade a player like Matthew Kuchuk, not to mention the fact that you are already in a position where Johnny Goddrao is going to leave.

and that's like within days. So like that that just obviously is is like a swift kick to the lower posterior, you know, like that's not a fun feeling to feel for for anybody. As for the three-year deal, like yeah, like I can imagine when you put yourself in that situation and if the negotiations were as contentious, like yeah, you essentially open yourself up to the potential of maybe that player wanting to seek greener pastures elsewhere. And the fact that they ultimately were like, you know what, I don't want to sign here long term. I want to go somewhere.

I mean, yeah, I want to. I mean, even Matthew Chuck, too, try to say, like, hey, you know, I don't know if they were just going to keep me for the final year, if they're going to trade me somewhere else. And then I was going to have to figure out all the, if I was going to stay with that team or play somewhere else after that. Like, there's a lot that he was trying to consider with that too. But they ultimately decided on what they did. So, yeah. I guess this is kind of tough to it'll be purely speculation but how related do you think all these things are right? Because I imagine part of the thinking for the flames even after that contentious negotiation a couple years ago was all right.

If we build something successful here, the player regardless of their feelings right now is going to want to stay right. Like if we're winning if they're putting up great numbers they're in a position to succeed. We convince them to stay like teams talk themselves into that angle all the time and throughout the regular season it was like this is a dream. scenario for everyone involved, right? Linholm, Goddrow, Kachuk, all had career individual seasons. The team finishes with 111 points. And then clearly it comes crashing down and burning in round two against the Oilers and that sort of flips the script a little bit. But I wonder like how related all of these moving pieces are where if they had taken care of Godro previous to last year and kept him long term, all of a sudden, does that change the calculus? Like I'm really,

you know, not to dig up old wounds here, but I'm really curious about how the trickle down effect of how like or domino effect of how one of those things all of a sudden led to multiple other scenarios. I think it's a great question to ask and I will just kind of reiterate again. You would never get an answer like a true answer, right? Maybe you have to give a yeah. Oh yeah. I'm even willing to say too. Like I know a lot of people have made the point about it on the story like when when Matthew was talking about like, you know, him going to the realization of realize he didn't want to be there anymore. I could I could say like, you know, I could understand why people feel like, oh, I want more out of that answer. I don't feel Matthew was going to give me the

full answer on why he was going to leave. And that's fine. That's fair. You can keep that to yourself or, you know, whatever you want to do with it. In terms of whether or not it's all related, I mean, it's the risk you run, I think, with a contract like that, with a player like that, as good as he's been. And considering what they went through in the playoffs, maybe if they go to the third round, they win that series.

Maybe that entices him to try to finish the job and go at it for another set of years. maybe similar deal with Johnny Goddrow as well. Yeah, it's tough for me to say whether or not it is or isn't, but I will just say that it is a fair question to ask. How close were you, or how tempted were you to asking Alan Walsh about whether he ever considered doing some sort of a meme with a sword sticking through John Earth and Uber Tos back? Oh, man.

But I, oh, man. Now I'm mad I didn't think about that. Because it did not cross my mind at all. Because here's the thing. I imagine Alan, who's a very powerful man in hockey that always has his finger on the pulse and feels like he wants things to run through him, understandably so, and has a very powerful client and Jonathan Hubertoe here. Like, I imagine it didn't sit very well with him being kind of blindsided and he left out of the dark.

And, you know, the flames did that sort of intentionally, or I guess both parties, did because they really wanted to keep it close. They didn't want leaks. They wanted to expedite this process. And it's a lot easier to do so when people aren't tweeting about it. But I imagine that was like a very passionate, frustrating moment from him. And I was actually surprised by how subdued his answers seemed when you were asking him about like that concept of finding out after the fact as opposed to being kept in the loop

throughout the process. That's hello. Like here's a thing. As someone on a beat for a team for the very first time. my life like full time as opposed to what I was doing in Montreal where I was kind of like a third stringer like I'm still getting to I'm still getting used to the fact that like an agent like Alan Walsh might want to actually talk to me uh so like I just the idea that like I could go to and be like hey man so you're going to make that meme with like a sword going through like we're going to do that I'm mad that it didn't cross my mind um but definitely the fact that he was he was just like yo man I didn't see this coming or he thought something was up again just bringing up that part that got cut from the story about his conversation with bill zito like the fact that he felt like something was off from like the montreal draft and then like on a random summer night his spidey senses he usually he actually used the phrase

spidey senses are going off like one that makes the story two like that just goes to show like how this business is as crazy as it is but uh i'll say this about allan walsh man like man i i really don't know uh man could you imagine if he did that like i wish Alan Walsh i always thought it was crazy that like Alan Walsh as a player agent establishes himself as his sports like what's the phrase i want to use here i don't want to say like their most notable personality but the fact that he is a personality kind of speaks to the quality of personality is we have a bug at HL players. And I always, I'm always interested in that.

I know someone did a profile on that years ago, but like, that's really interesting to me that a one agent, and I guess the only other agent I could think of who holds that much like power and credence as a public figure, maybe a Drew Rosenhouse in the NFL or Scott Boris in Major League Baseball. But like the fact that Alan Walsh, like the fact that we could sit back and think like, man, like this dude could easily make a meme if he wanted to or actually, you know what he doesn't have to do that. He has a podcast.

He could easily just go on his podcast. be like, this is what they did. Don, da, nah, whatever. Like, I think that's wild that Alan Walsh has that power. I mean, you were saying, you know, first time covering a team on a full-time beat an agent wanting to talk to you like this. I mean, you're technically co-workers, though. I feel like you could go to them kind of peer to fear and be like out.

That is very true. But also like, this is for the podcast game. You know that. That's true. But like, at the same time, like, there's a professional thing I have to do with this, right? Like, I don't want to, like, I get that like we are teammates because of the Steve Dangle podcast network, but also at the same time, like, there's jobs we have to do. Like, at the end of the day, like, I appreciate the fact we're teammates, but like, I know he's going to be more loyal to

his clients and that's his job and I'm going to be more loyal to my job. That's my job. I think he's still got me blocked on Twitter because I used to make fun of Andre Pavlik, one of his clients way back in the day. And honestly, I think Pavlik made it pretty easy for me at the time. And it was when I was a younger, younger analyst. So I was just, you know, I was, I was letting it rip. And I think Allen didn't like that too much. So he, He's still going to be blocked on Twitter, but good time. So do you want me to put it a good word for you? Is that it?

I do. I mean, listen, I'd love to. I'd love for him to follow me. I'd follow him back. I'm curious. I want to see all the memes. I don't want to have to be going, trying to find them elsewhere. So is there any other bits that you, that you've wanted to include or you wanted to get to,

but it just would have been too sprawling of a piece because you mentioned the word account. I totally understand how that works. And, you know, you've got to get it out there. But at the same time, this is like, such a juicy story, right? I feel like you could approach it from like a million different angles. You did a great job. You covered all the more important ones. But whenever there's something like this, it's like, oh, man, I wish I could have gotten to this one other thing as well. I think one other thing I would have liked to have done, but I actually didn't really invest in it

too much because, you know, Huberto and Kachuk are the main centerpieces of this deal. It would have been cool to go in more on, on McKenzie Wieger's side of it. And I know we kind of mentioned with how he heard about the trade, but also how that affects him. And I really liked what he said. And I put it at the end of the piece where he's like, you know what, I didn't get a chance to say any goodbyes to any of the Florida fans. So, you know, and they meant a lot and all that. Another thing, this is more just like a funny thing I thought of.

I remember telling my dad about this piece that was going to drop and like telling him like, hey, you got to read it. You got to be excited about it. I got all these people to talk about it. And then my dad was like, so what does Darrell think about it? And I just like froze up for like three minutes. It's just like, oh, crap, I don't have anything from Daryl Sutter. It just felt so, like, bad.

And I was like, oh, well, that's just me, like, personally just wanting to know. And I was like, no, well, thanks, dad. Like, I wish I talked to Daryl Sutter for this piece that I think is, like, the best thing I've written for the athletics inside I enjoyed. Wow. I don't know if you would have gotten too much content from Daryl there. Probably not. But, like, just hearing that in the moment, just made me think, like, ah, man. I love that.

All right. Well, this is the part of the show where. we start to put a bow on it and sign out. Before I let you plug some stuff, is there any other elements of the story that you wanted to touch on? Or do you think we did it justice? Because I think we rattled through a lot of my notes here. But, you know, I don't want to regret forgetting to ask you something important here.

Yeah, man. That kind of reminds you of a question I'd like to ask people a lot where it's like, is there anything about this story or topic I asked? day I just were discussing today that I didn't ask you and I try to like ask that to everybody and some people just be like nope you covered everything and then some people just be like no you know what like x y z and sometimes you get like the best quotes out of it like I love I love that technique with asking questions well I didn't want to do like a generic interviewer technique on you here but I'm totally with you because sometimes people have something they really want to get

out their chest and it's actually like the most interesting part of the story and you just totally spaced on it and you're not thinking it. And then all of a sudden, they just like unload on you. And you're like, oh, my God, thank God, I did this because it would have been a mess otherwise. Yes, I've been there. I guess just the only thing I could really say is just like, thank you to everybody who's been reading this. Like, I don't know. Like, I felt like this was an idea I really wanted to do for a while. And I'm happy with how it's turned out and the artwork. And shout out to Israel Fair and Mark Walliman for editing this piece and getting it over the finish line. And I think John Bradford is the name of the illustrator here.

We got all the photos and kind of made them look the way that it did. Like I, I'm really happy with how it came together. And I just want to show those people, thanks. How are you, how are you liking the daily grind? If you mentioned the first time covering a team like this, I mean, there's, it's tough because on the one hand, you, it's, it can sometimes be challenging to come up with new topics. I think this is a pretty good spot for you to start with because there's so many new pieces and I think fans of the flames are probably so interested in kind of learning about this team and figuring it all out and sort of, you know, trial and error and all that. So I think it's like a pretty good spot. It's not like a very stale situation where you're walking in and it's

like, oh, God, everyone already knows everything here. I'm just going to be regurgitating stories that we've all read for the past couple years. So it's a good spot, but at the same time, I'm sure it's got a ton of challenges. Yeah, like my thing is like I don't want to come across like my My goal is to put out ideas, concepts, stories like what I put out yesterday that you can't get anywhere else. And that requires me to be a smarter, just a smarter media person, smarter journalists. Like I look at like the fact that we're in an age where advanced statistics have taken such a foothold in hockey coverage. And that goes thanks to people like Dom, to people like Shana, yourself. you're included in that.

Like I'm still learning of so much when it comes to that. And I try my best to incorporate as much as I can. But also at the same time, like I know I'm getting a sense that people in Calgary. I don't know how it is for other markets. But like they don't just want like an article where it's just numbers thrown at them. Like for I know for me like I was I was not great at math. Like I would hate that. You know?

So I still want to be able to show I could tell stories and and get the day to day stuff. and talk to people one-on-one. The best thing about the job is how accessible the players can be on a given day. Like coming from Montreal where people want to talk to players all the time. And like especially in the, as we're just getting out of COVID, all of our media veils were basically just like, you know, they put a guy on a podium or just behind like a little like table and they're talking everyone.

Everyone gets the same quotes. But like in Calgary, like while we do have some of that, like I have the opportunity to take a guy on the side and just be like, hey, like, what can you tell me about X, Y, Z? Like, for the Adam Rosicca story I did over the weekend, just by happenstance, I was talking to Tyler DeFoli that morning, and I just got some quotes from him about Rosicca, and I got to use them in my story. Like, that is something that I want to do more and more of as a way to kind of stand out from the Eric Francis's of the world, the West Gilbertsons of the world, the Aaron Vickers,

like all those guys. Like, they're really good at their job and they're really great. but I also want to match and surpass what they have with what I bring to the table as well. So there's a lot of that to still kind of corral down. Well, I think you're doing a great job. Thank you. Also getting to work with CJ as often as you are proud, Chris Johnson is great because first off. I love CJ.

He was incredibly forthcoming and welcoming when I first started. I remember, I don't know if I've shared this story on the podcast before, but one of my first shows, I was like, just railing on mainstream media, which I guess I wasn't still at the time. Or I hope I'm not even now. I know this show is writing on sports today, but I don't think of myself that way. But I was like, I hate the coverage of the NHL. I hate the way the media portrays this stuff, this and that, this and that.

And then he like, out of the blue, we had never talked before. He emails me out of the blue. And he's like, I really hope I'm not one of those five media members that you mentioned on the podcast. And first off, I was like, wow, this is, it's cool that Chris Johnson's listening to my show. But also I was like, no, like, you trust me. You're one of the good ones. And so we kind of like established a relationship from that.

And I know that, you know, you mentioned like getting quotes and talking to people. I don't think there's anyone in the game that's better at like exuding, like, a shoulder for you to be able to not cry on, but to talk to. Like I've seen him work and the way people just open up to him and just like tell him stuff that he can use later for stories and stuff. that is incredible. So you got to tap into that wealth of knowledge because he's got a lot of tricks of the trade. Oh, man, he does, man. The cool thing about CJ, especially like in doing the podcast with him, like we try our best to have, like, especially when the conversations are good, like they shouldn't be any different that like if him and I went to some random bar in a booth somewhere and he's, like explaining it that same way. Like even in the way that he looks, like he's wearing like a hoodie or he's

wearing like that bear hat that he wears all the time like that's what he would do if we were saying all right dude we're going to hang out this bar you want to come like he would pull up that way and the few times i've gotten to like hang out with him like beyond the podcast like that's what he would do and hopefully we we tried to convey that same feeling while at the same time you still get to learn a lot from him and i've learned a lot from from him and he's giving me a lot of contacts too and and he's been really really helpful i'm eternally grateful to siege yeah i'll give him my best i'll let you let you plug some stuff we can plug where people can check out the story that we talked about today and kind of like all the stuff you're working on

because you've got a million things on the move. I'm really impressed by your ability to juggle it. For me, it's like I write at E.P. Ringside. I do that once a week. I do this podcast now every day. And I don't think I could take on any more other work responsibilities because if I had another job here, I'd absolutely lose it. Damn, welcome to my life. Yeah, man. I'm on Twitter at J-K-A-M-K-A-M-Z-I-E. you can check out my latest on the Kachukhuberto trade at the athletic. I don't know what deals we have at the athletic right now. It feels like we always have a deal. But I'm sure you could find some kind of deal that works for you and subscribe.

Because look, I mean, I think I'm doing an okay job there, but my colleagues across the NHL vertical are really good. And I mean, look, Sportsnet, they have some really good people there, but I'm going to rep the home team here and say, hey, we have some guys who are just as good if not better. You know what I'm saying? So you better be careful. I hope sports set doesn't get mad at me for saying that.

But yeah, subscribe to the athletic is a great place. Also subscribe to the Chris Johnson show. Subscribe to the athletic hockey show as well. I'm on the Monday show with Ian Mendez. And also check out Zone Time, the Yahoo Sports Hockey podcast that I do every week with Samantha Chang, Avery Lewis McDougall, Tick-Tek-Tamar, Ernst Rinavasen is also tapped in for a couple of episodes as well. I think it's like the best like group chat-esque hockey show that's out there.

And that's no shade to the drop on the ESPN. I'm coming for everybody, man. I don't care. Oh, dude, man. So just check out all my stuff if you can, man. Thank you. I love that. This is awesome, man.

I'm really glad we finally got through this and connected on a show. Yes. Certainly. Now this is a long time coming, people. We've been trying to make something work for a long time. Now that we've done it, the plug gates can open. We're going to make this a regular thing. Julian, keep killing it.

This was awesome. We're going to check back in with you. Thank you to all the listeners for checking us out. If you enjoyed what you heard, first off, go check out Julian's piece on the athletic. Also, smash that five-star button wherever you listen to the show. And we're going to be back tomorrow with more here in the PDO cast. Thank you for listening to us streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network.