The Hockey PDOcast - Woodley's back with more in depth goalie talk

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

Kevin Woodley of InGoal Magazine makes an in-studio appearance alongside Dimitri as the pair run through a full NHL goalie deep dive. They talk about rebound control, the details of positioning, and Jack Cambell's struggles in Edmonton.This podcast is produced by Dominic Sramaty. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

Progressing to the mean since 2015, it's the Hockey Pediocast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Hockey PEDEOCast, my name is Amitra Filippovich and joining me in studio to my left. My good buddy, Kevin. Woodley, Kevin, what's going on, man? Not much. This is fast. You said we would do this again. This is the benefit of a daily show.

We don't have to wait like once a year for my appearance with you. Daily show, professional studio. I don't have to be lugging you into some we work conference room. We can just get here. We've got producer behind the glass. We've got the professional mics. Everything's all set up looking nice. We're going to tweet out some videos later so people can see us talking.

Yeah. I probably should have put in my tooth. Well, you're wearing the blazer. So, you know, it's looking good. But you're right. I had you on a couple weeks ago, and we said we're not going to do an annual show with you anymore. We're going to have you on a more regular basis. So we're living up to our word.

And honestly, like, I love chatting with you, but the listeners have been filling up my inbox with Juan and Woodley on the PDA guests more often. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I feel, I, I like that because, like, I have two teenage daughters. One actually has moved out to university, but, like, I don't get a lot of, like, more me requests. Right. Right.

Like, it's like, Dad, go away. So that's nice. That's nice to hear that somebody actually wants me to be a part of something. Wow. Amongst my nerdy listenership, and I say that in the most affectionate way possible, you're a big hit. That's because Johan Hedberg once told me that. that he referred to me to my face as a goalie geek. And then he like backed off and he was like,

but I mean that like in a very respectful way. Like that's a good thing. So there we go. There we go. The nerds and the geeks were all aligned. So we're going to start this conversation with a listener question. Colin Dolan emailed me a couple weeks ago actually shortly after our first pod together. And I saved it for this specific occasion because I wanted to talk about it with you and only you.

So the question goes, is the short side shot underutilized? I realize goalies position themselves closer to the short side, but it seems like there's a surprise element to a shot being ripped short side high. I'm a Hurricanes fan, so Andres Sedgenikov comes to mind with players who like to blow high heat short side. I realize that the shot across the goalie creates more rebound opportunities, as we call them affectionately pillow passes. That's me talking about. Yeah, exactly, not yeah.

Not Colin. But yeah, that's the question from Colin. And I think it's an interesting idea because, you know, we were talking before we went on in the air. And there's this notion that if you're a goalie and you give up a goal short side, it's almost viewed as like a bad one. It's like one that you should have had. Yeah. And it's funny because this actually is giving me ideas for my unmask column on NHL.com. I got to start asking the guys as they come through town if this is still a thing.

But I remember, you know, I mean, I've been doing this 20 years now, but, you know, covering the league and having people refer to that. short side goal is the American League side. Like if you gave it up too much because you're going to be back in the American League and you know, I mean, not to geek out on the first answer, but little geometry would tell you like draw a line from the face off dot to each post and which one's a shorter line. Like the short side is a shorter line every time.

It's the fastest path into the net. It's why when we have screen opportunities as a goal tender, like there's two reasons most teams run a system off screens where if you've got a screen in front of you, whether it's usually an opposing screen, but maybe it's a double screen with your own guy, and you've got to pick a side, which side do I look around that screen?

Almost like to a team, to a guy, you're picking short side because that's the fastest path for the puck to get in the net. You're sort of counting on, okay, if I cheat short side here, because I can't stay middle unless I'm a giant, like a markshram and I just look over everyone. But if I got to pick a side,

I'm going short side, and then if that puck gets shot to the far side, I've got enough time because it's a longer path, again, geometry, to shift the cross and try and pick it up as I move. Also, the second part of that is there's typically more bodies in the middle. It's more likely to hit something in the middle of the ice. So, you know, it's interesting. I would need to see to answer the listeners' questions,

like what the numbers are. Well, I sprung this one on you without any. Well, and I don't, like, we don't, like that one thing, I mean, there are very few things that ClearSight doesn't track, but like say against the grain and what side of the net and where you know glove blocker things like that are that's those are some of the elements that they don't keep track of so um it's almost anecdotal at this point i haven't even had a chance to ask around you know like i'm curious i do know like goalies for sure like uh i've had this conversation with goalie coaches like if a left

handed shot comes off the wall into the middle of the ice they almost always go back against the grain like you can watch drills yeah um and goalie coaches have said like watch this watch this is a trend because young goalies can learn from this. Like that shooter almost every time is going to try and pull it back against the grain or short side. And so that's a tendency for sure that they look for. So I'd be curious to see what the numbers actually say about if guys are trying to take advantage of that or not. The geometry certainly says you should be. Here's a beautiful thing about this question, why I brought it up,

because I knew you'd come with something and then we could riff. And I just came up with my head with three follow-up questions that I have for you based on this. So we're going to get through one segment with basically one question. It might be all show. Thank you, Colin Dolan again for this question. So, Kevin, here's my first follow-up. In thinking, you know, you and I always talk about how in today's game, if a goalie squares up a shot, he's probably going to stop it.

And that's why teams are trying to get that East-West action where they're trying to get the goalie moving laterally, and that increases the likelihood of you scoring so much, especially on a two-on-one. Do you think there's in the cat-and-mouse game of shooter versus goalie? Now with that in everyone's mind, do you think there's going to become a point where goalies almost start

overcompensating by cheating for that cross-ice pass and for the shooter, it'll provide a competitive advantage to actually start going for that short-side shot more often? It's a good question, and I think the answer never, like most things in goaltending, it never exists in a vacuum,

so it'll become a function of how teams pressure a two-on-one chance, how teams are playing it, How much are they prioritized taking away that pass? Like is that like, you know, like obviously we know that most teams like, hey, the goalie's got the shooter and the defenseman takes the pass on an odd man rush. But like there's clearly degrees to which that is hammered home, right? Like if I was, not that I'm smart enough to coach a team, but if I was ever in charge of defensive structure,

given what I know, and I didn't have these numbers last time I was here, but I got them from Steve. Okay. Like the number of low slot line plays. So lateral plays that finish below the hash mark in the last five years. So remember we talked about Washington winning the cop and how everything was all about those laterals. They've got a 41% in five years. When they go cross ice.

Teams trying to create offense across the middle of the ice below the hash mark. So if I was defending it, I would be trying to take that away at all costs. Like that's what I would be trying to. Just let the goalie do their job, which is stopping the shot. So I mean, and so the goalie's cheating. it would all become a function of what's going on in front of them, right? But at the end of the day, and I've talked to this with a lot of goalies, like I don't think you can ever cheat off a shooter by hedging to one side.

Like I just, like, A, we're long past the days of Marty Bitterer where he would, like he was the way he thought the game was so different and just so frankly above everyone else at the time where he would show you things as a shooter. Right. And then as soon as you went. there he'd already be moving in that direction like there's not a lot of guys that play that way but the second thing is like these guys shoot so well if you're set and you're square you're right goalies in a good spot you as soon as you start giving up and leaning or cheating like guys will just rip you apart in this

league and that seems to be the consensus from the goalies i talk about where you can cheat that situation isn't by moving into the middle of the ice to shorten your path you know and hedging for a past where you can cheat is just by taking less ice and being less aggressive so that that path across when the path gets across is shorter. But even then, now you're giving up more net if you're not as aggressive, right? So I do think we talked about Demco last time we're in here about like the one thing that I did see in his game and I've had a couple other goalie coaches from other teams say, you know, where the hell do this come from?

Like he's way outside of the blue ice off rush chances and teams are exploiting it by making passes high in the zone and one timing on the other side and you saw him I think against the king's adjust that and get back to where he used to be just right on the edge of the crease and so to me that is an adjustment to teams taking advantage of east-west plays high in the zone and scoring on one-timers because he had created a situation where he had to he took so much ice early that he couldn't recover it all the way to the other side yeah all right my second question I forgot my third since it'll come back to you so hopefully it does but my second one is over time as, you know, goalies have gotten better.

We talk about, we talk often about how the shooters have gotten better and how like the stick technology for like what they're capable of with some of these like wrist shots and stuff is, is better than it's ever been clearly. Similarly with goalies, goalie equipment and everything, have goalies and you, I didn't give you the warning before. And so you don't have the numbers for this. Just kind of theoretically, do you feel like goalies have gotten better at,

controlling rebounds in today's game? Yes, for the most part. And there are guys that do it better than others. But that's why, to me, like, the POP pass-off pad that we talked about earlier, man, like, I mean, if it's too easy a shot, the first one, like, I think most goalies in today's league, especially if it's far side, unless that shooter make sure it's not along the ice, like it's actually like eight inches above. Right.

They are steering that wherever the heck they want to start. They are putting it. If they want to whistle, they're putting into the stands. They just, you know, like they're not very rarely unless it's a really, like, again, there are points where that becomes a high enough quality chance that the goal is just trying to react and make the save. Yeah. But if you're just throwing it from a distance and he can see it, the chances are he's controlling it. So I feel for the most part, for sure that's true. especially like on those types.

I called the 99%ers, the ones that just warm the goalie up. You know, get a stick on it, steer it up. Like, it's not that hard to do. There are some guys that,

you know, have lost sort of, I said the art of that control. There's actually some prospects that I think, you know, I look at a scare off. That was one of the things that, you know,

when I watched him, you know, as the Predators, where they pick him 11th, like he was the highest touted in the draft. The only thing I didn't love about his game was his head.

hands and everyone just assumed I meant the glove because that was one of the things that was in the scuddering report but to me it was more the stick like the blocker was not active the stick was not active and so therefore every puck off the pads was back out into the middle and his down movement his movement on his knees was incredible so he recovered he made spectacular saves off that but you get to the national hockey league and they're just going to funnel pucks off those pads and watch you kick it into high danger areas all day long you have to be able to and i think most guys do control those low pucks along the ice i mean i I remember watching, actually it's ironic because it was Michael DiPietro working on this exact play

a couple years ago during the pandemic when he was the taxi squad guy. Like, Kai's coming down the wing and trying to shoot off far pad. And this is, again, this is something that we're just seeing some goalie start to do. They weren't even activating the stick instead of steering it up and out the far side, which could still, even if you're ramping it up, if your defenseman's too deep in the zone, that could still hit something and end up in a dangerous area. he was actually using the boot of the pad so that very bottom that goes over the skate just by the ankle we call it the boot break and that bottom boot scoop or boot of the pad to and keeping it flat and flexing it in a way that that far side shot he didn't steer it with the shin of the pad or the like the upper leg part he made sure it caught the boot and it kicked back out behind the guy who let the shot go so like making that a same side rebound to eliminate a puck going across the slot line as a second chance.

And I've seen some goalies. I've seen Thatcher execute it in games, not as much this year, but I've seen them executed in games. So like when you talk about goalies working on things, like there's one where goalies are trying to be like, hey, you know that pass off pads? Like guess what? I'm putting it back on the same side.

I don't care if you throw it off the far pad. I've worked to the point where I think I can control this completely. Yeah. Well, that was my initial. And the, you know, the reader to his credit pointed it out in his own question. but that was my first thought thinking about the short side was your odds of beating a goalie cleanly on the initial shot are still so low. And I feel like the percentage of times that a short side shot results in a rebound must be significantly, or a dangerous rebound, I should say, must be significantly less than going the long way, right? And I guess it depends, too.

Are you trying to, like, are you in an area where you're shooting to score or in a situation where you're shooting to score? are you, or like the listeners, or the, the, the question is that, are you trying to create second chances? And we talk again about goalies. Like, I know for sure there are NHL goalie coaches and I know I've seen it taught at the youth level. Short side low. That's what, you know, I talked about the far side, activating the stick and steering it up. Short side low, they teach you to use the pad and just dead it into the corner. Because if you ramp it up off the glass, off the short side, you're right. It shouldn't be a dangerous rebound. But if you use your stick and ramp that puck up, it can come right back out in front

because of active boards and active glass, you have less control. So, again, I don't know that I answer the question, but for sure it's something that goalies and goalie coaches are cognizant of and making sure that, hey, if they are going to shoot short side low, let's not activate our stick, let's keep this rebound dead in the corner where we can regroup, get back into our posts,

and work from there as opposed to sending it up off the glass. Either A, well, in my case, I wouldn't even know where it's going, but I actually gave up a goal at the Canucks Autism Tournament this weekend. By doing that, thank you very much. Went right over the net and sat in the crease on the other side of me, but just control that better. Don't take a chance of sending it up off the glass and it hits a stanchion or hits a seam and comes back out funny.

Yeah. Well, here's a related then conversation point for us, because the other day, Floodot-Oshin-Zawa posted on the athletic about how the prevalence of slap shots in today, game is decreasing. It's almost becoming an extinct version of trying to beat a goalie. Like you still have the cross seam one timers in terms of the slap shot where you're trying to minimize the amount of time the other team has to react to the pre-shot movement you just created. But the reason that all this ties together for me and it got me thinking was he had some stats

in there about how, you know, if you're below the hash marks, that stat you cited a low slot line. Yeah, exactly. efficient of a shot that is and how often it results in a goal and it's basically like a cheat code if you're able to execute and now a lot of teams are doing everything they can to prevent it and get in the way of it but then he also had this other stat that showed that as soon as you go above the circles how much the efficiency plummets and especially I think only like three percent of shots of one timers or slap shots that came from the top top the circles resulted in rebounds which to me was was kind of like exactly what we're talking about here.

Yeah, and so, you know, there's that control, right? Yeah. Like the further out, as I talked about, it depends on the situation, right? Like, if you're in a scoring chance area, you're just trying to make the save. But if you're further out, most goals at this level, like, they may put out it, and that's the thing, like, that's why I find it hard to classify rebounds. Some guys put out rebounds that don't matter because they're actually, like, kicked right to one of their guys to start a breakup, right?

Like, so I just think the further out you are, the less movement you have, the more chances, you know, again, we talked about it last time. Like, I've sat down and watched a game with the Washington Capitol's goalie coach. When they come to town, he'll come sit in the press box with me and hear him talking about, like, oh, like, that's a turnover. Like, you know, everybody else is like, oh, Sean on goal, and he's like, that's a turnover. You just gave it to the other team because there's no chance that's going in. There's almost no chance you're creating a rebound out of it.

You're just basically turning the buck over. And so, you know, stories like that, stats like that kind of point to the same thing. And I'm not surprised. Like slap shots, unless it's a 1T, and even on the 1T's, like how many times are guys like, you know, tickling the rafters with the windup? It's all about the quick release. Like, yeah, on a power play, you've got Elias Pedersen with that, like, wicked, like, wind up. And, I mean, hammers it to the point where he hits a spot, it's going in, right?

Like, it's just there's so much velocity on it. But for the most part, it's all about quick release, get rid of it fast. You know, and accuracy is almost as important as velocity. Yeah. And so you're seeing guys with that little like sort of half slapper and, you know, just, just from the knees. Just make sure you get it on net and the quick releases. It's, it's all about not allowing the goaltender's time to go back to the very first point you made when we started talking. It's about not giving them time to get set and square.

Yes. As complicated as the game has gotten for goaltenders, I could stand up here and talk about like, you know, reverse tracking and track downs and reverse VH and traditional VH and all these different. technical elements. It boils down to, can you get to your spot set square in a safe stance ready to make the next decision, like as part of that sequencing? And so it makes sense and the numbers check out, the more you can do as an offense to get shots off before the goaltender is set and square, the better your chances of actually scoring goals in the national hockey. You said their speed is almost as important as accuracy. Or no, accuracy is almost work.

I think it's becoming increasingly. I would say it's more. Yeah. I would say like clearly you need to reach some sort of a threshold or baseline, which most NHLers typically do unless you're just really floating them off and in there. But for the most part, a regular NHL shot meets that criteria. At that point, for me, it comes down so much more to disguising what your intentions are, right? And I'm really curious.

I want to see you like once Connor Mardard, because I know you're not necessarily working on prospect stuff. Once Connor Mardt comes into the NHL, I can't wait to talk to you about what he's doing to goalies because some of the video I've seen in some of the breakdowns of his shot technique in terms of his hand placement and how he's able to basically disguise his intentions of when and where he's going to shoot and what that's doing like now clearly he's terrorizing goalies who will probably never be in that hl and are way overmatched but i feel like it's just a sign of things to come because he himself will obviously get better as he enters his physical prime but so that's that's the next step right like so there's one thing can we create plays

where the goalie doesn't have time just get set in score. And then we just want to get it off as quick as we can and two spots that we know are... There's a rule for goaltenders in like desperation situations. Like the guy's got a wide open net and you're in like goalie 9-1-1, you're like, you're screwed. You got no chance. Yeah. The rule is get something to the middle.

Right. Like just right to the middle. Because most guys, when they stare at an open net, they are not trying to put it bar down. Yeah. They're scared of missing. They throw it right in the middle. Cam Ward won a Stanley Cup with Carolina.

I go back and watch how many of his highlight real saves against Edmonton, like all the way through the playoffs were open, like his like, you know, like incredible saves. But they were open nets and he just, that was his rule of thumb, just gets up in the middle of guys.

They just shoots it back into him basically. Yeah, because they're not going to try and pick corners in that spot. And I just feel like now more and more guys are at least getting it to spots in the net where they know the goalie's not going to be. And then there's the next level. And that's the deception. And it's increasingly in the N.

shell. To me, this goes back to shooters figuring out what goalies are doing, and I don't mean in terms of how to score on them, there's an element to that, show one thing and deliver another, get them moving in a certain way, anticipating one shot and then be able to deliver it in a way that crosses them up. But it's actually goes to how goalies work. Like for, what, we're 20 years in of goalie schools in the summer at all levels. Like, goalies went to work in the summers on skills. forever. Shooters just went to work in the summer on getting bigger, stronger, faster. It's like they were in the Olympics, not the national hockey. They didn't work on skills. Like the number of guys that worked on skills in the offseason a decade ago,

I can count them on one hand. Guys like Parize that would go to his brother's goalie schools and learn how to beat goalies by shooting at goalie schools. Like, that was a short list of guys that would do that. Now these guys, they are bigger. They are stronger. They are faster. But they work on these skills on this deception all summer long. It's like, hey, it took you 20 years,

but you caught up to the goalies. Congratulations. Now we've got to figure out how to get you back. Now, for some of these NHL goleys, are you actually looking at before a game? Maybe it might be tougher on a regular season, especially you're playing back-to-backs. You know, you don't have necessarily time to be prepping all in for every single opponent. You might look at some quick video or some quick stats on them, but especially for a playoff series, I'd say this is particularly prevalent. How much homework is there being done on, like, tendencies for like what your specific opponent is trying to do?

Because it's clearly, you know, each team has its own little variations or trivents. plays or what specific star players, like how they typically beat goalies? Power playing penalty. For sure. Like that's one of the big ones. Like, you know, how are we defending? What are we giving up and what did they like to look for? What to keep an eye out for on the power play?

Like, I know that's one of the trends that goalies will try and dig in with their video coach, with their goalie coach on heading into a playoff series. I think pre-scouts matter more in the playoffs. Like I think that in on a Tuesday night against Nashville, somebody, you know, your goalie coach comes in and delivers this like, you know, like brilliant breakdown of how to score. I shouldn't do use Nashville because I don't know how you break down. You see sorrow. Kevin Lincoln, it's also off to a great start.

But you know what I mean? Like, it's 182, man. Like, yeah, some guys will pay close attention. Some guys just want what, okay, if we get to a shootout, what do I do? Right. Some guys just nothing. But in the playoffs, then those details matter. And so are you creating the types of chances?

And it's not, and it's not, it's not high glove. Shoot high glove? Like that's, you know what I mean? Like that's every goal. It's far more detail. Perfect shot, yeah. I know, like, I can't give the exact example of the play, but there was a series a few years ago where I know that the pre-scout that was delivered led directly to two goals

scored from below the goal line that changed at least one of the games in the series. And that was very specifically recognizing that a goalie, when the puck's, got below the goal line rather than tucking inside the post, he would plant his push leg outside of his post and thereby expose himself to being, having it shot banked off. Right. And one went directly in and one created a scramble in front that went in. And so, like, you can find tendencies like that.

I just don't think it happens until we hit the playoffs. And I think it's probably true the other way, but from the goalie perspective, even in a shootout, some guys don't want to know. Like, there are a lot of goalies that are like, man, if you tell me that this is his A move and I'm sitting on it and he goes to B, I'm done. I need to keep everything neutral and just read off what he's doing. You see on Saturday night, Vegas Edmonton, Mark Stone gets a penalty shot, goes 5-0, beats Stuart Skinner right after acknowledges his goalie.

Logan Thompson. Yeah, you know what, and now I'm like kicking myself because I was just in the room with Logan Thompson like two hours ago and we were just chatting and I forgot to ask him about that, but for sure, like there are goalies on the bench. We've seen the iPads. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And same thing. There are some goalies that want to know.

They'll do that work pregame on what a shootout tendency is, and there are some that just don't want to know. Yeah, they just want to wing it. See, if you want to know how to score, ask a goal. Like, this is what it all comes back down to. Like teams that had success using some of these very analytics we're talking about from ClearSight, specifically ClearSight in the case of the Washington Capitals, winning a cup with their goalie coach, not dictating how they try and score,

but showing guys that, like, look at, like, it's supplementing. Look, if this, I know you will. want to shoot on that two-on-one. We all do. But if you make that pass, the chance of it going in is like 40% higher. Let's make that pass. If you want to know how to beat goalies, ask goalies. And that is a perfect place to take a break. Kevin, we're going to be back right after the break. Keep this conversation going. You were listening to the Hockey P.D.O.cast streaming live on the Sportsnet Radio Network. How about Alexander Georgian? We were back here on the HockeyPedio cast with Kevin Woodley.

Kevin, I should apologize to you. I'm wearing a t-shirt right now. which the fine folks at Hockey Collective sent me. Just taunting me. Marty Turko getting his jock strap sent to the rafters by the Magic Man, Babel Datzuk. So apologies. I know this is an anti-goly. It is.

The union is filing a protest after this just so, you know, the goaling union is not pleased with your choice of attire. I'm sorry. The good news is, like, at my level in the Liber League, like anybody that tries that just falls down in the corner so they never actually hit that. It's inspired a lot of easy saves for goalies. Yeah, exactly.

Like, because nobody can do it. like Datsig did. Yes. All right. So I want to talk about the Oilers here specifically, and they're goalies. And we're going to talk about Jack Campbell, Stuart Skinner, and I'm going to lead it in with this stat courtesy of our pal, Stephen Valacette, courtesy of Clearside Analytics.

Here are the top 10 teams in terms of most rush chances allowed so far this season. One, the sharks. Two, the ducks. Three, the Canadians. No surprise here. Four, the Canucks. Five, the Blackhawks. six the Predators, seven, the Edmonton Oilers,

eight sabers, nine capitals, 10 lightning. The overarching theme there is we talk all the time about how much of today's game, especially offensively, is what you can create off the rush and how teams need to limit that if they want to provide a good environment for their goalies. I believe out of those 10 teams, none of them are in the top half in say percentage so far this season, and that checks out because if you're giving up a high volume of rush chances, you will probably be leaving your goalie out to dry quite a little bit.

And the Oilers are seventh on that list, so that was kind of a good entryway for us to talk here about them. Yeah, and interestingly enough, you know, like, so the Oilers are heading into New Jersey tonight to play the Devils, who are one of the better in terms of, you know, generating rush chances. Not a great matchup to try to stop giving up rush chances against him. Yeah, and so I thought, like, I mean, obviously all the numbers, Jack Campbell's not been, you know, what they hoped this season. I figured it would take time for him to adjust. And listen, I was somewhat critical of the signing, just the numbers, the dollar figure, the term,

because the reality of, you know, the numbers from Clearside over the past couple of seasons, he graded out in the 30s in terms of adjusted say percentage. He gave you above expected, but just. Yeah. And it just felt like that was a big ticket for that. And also the inconsistency with which he did it. One year he was steady start to finish. And then last season, like he was arguably Vezna Trophy caliber for the first third of the season as the Leafs sort of stubbed their toe

defensively early in the year. And then when they straightened things out, you know, he had a six-week stretch where he was on the opposite end of that spectrum, like arguably the worst schooling in the league statistically for six weeks. And when I watched the video, I didn't see a ton of difference.

And that's what makes you a little nervous. He's a guy that plays off feel and instinct. And there's, it's not like his technical game is bad, but he's just, he's not a technician. It's not what he relies on. It's not, you know, it's not how he plays. And so, you know, like, you can,

if you were to spot a glaring air, you'd be like, that's an easy fix. But when everything looks the same between good and bad results, it's like, okay, how do you fix this? So I do think the nature of his style means it was going to take, and it will take time to adjust to a new team, to an environment, to being able to read off the tendencies of the players in front of you. It doesn't help when you're giving up the number of rush chances they are.

But I would have expected that rush is where he has success. Like I would have thought that Jack would be better, off the rush, maybe even than Stuart Skinner, who's a little more of a technician. Would you say, so would you say stopping or dealing or being kind of programmed to deal better against that type of environment where you're just having to face rush chance after rush chans? Is that one where you'd want to be more kind of just in terms of like feel and instinct as opposed to technique? That's tough.

Well, if I assumed maybe he would have, like I thought maybe they might start him tonight. Yeah. Because my assumption would be he'd have better numbers against the rush. And then I looked it up. And Skinner's like plus 5% on rush chances. And Campbell's minus 10, which is again. So guys that skate, guys that play with a little flow, like you think that when they're on their game,

that little bit flow gives them momentum, the ability to read, the ability to do things a little differently and not just sort of be spot to spot technicians, which is I don't think it's fair to Skinner to say that's all he is, but to me that's more the foundation of his game than it is Jack Campbell's. And so, yeah, I would actually.

And maybe that's just early in the season. Maybe, you know, it's not just about does the defenseman take away the pass on a two-on-one. It's where does he pressure? Can I trust him to pressure? Where does this guy pressure? Where does that guy pressure? Some of its system. Some of its personal tendencies.

You know, how does he try and block that passing lane? Is he sliding early? Like, there's a lot of little things that just take time to learn. I don't think that Jack Campbell is as bad as he's been so far. Well, that's impossible. Well, yeah. But, I mean, even being critical of the trade. like he's better than this.

And with time, he will show it. I believe that. But I was, I got to admit, I was surprised and I looked up the numbers because I thought, man, maybe they throw Jack in here tonight and then I looked up the numbers. And I'm like, no, maybe they don't. Because Skinner's been really good

against the Russian, he hasn't. I cited those rush numbers as like, just put that to the side right before I went on to absolutely skewer. Jack Campbell, because I'm no goalie technician. I leave that to you. But I went back and watched a lot of his take. from this season. He's not technical.

Well, not only is he not technical. I'd say on some of these shots, his puck tracking, it looks like an early scene of like a superhero movie, like an origin story, where the main character has to learn how to fight.

And so their trainer blindfolds them and they have to like learn how to fight in the dark and embrace all their other senses. And so they're just, and you know, they're comically missing and they're like waving

as they're trying to figure it out. That's what some of this looks like to me. Like, there's been a couple times where Arister just, he tried to, like, catch it with his glove and it just went right through him almost. And like, he's like, he's literally not seeing the puck coming at him. There was a clapper that did go right through. Yeah. His glove. Like,

somebody sent me the video. Physically through the glove? Physically through the glove. I have a picture of the webbing. It looks like it went right through the webbing of the glove. Yeah. Talked to somebody on the staff there that they, they couldn't figure out how the hell it went in. I know when the, when they were running the analytics, like they had to take a extra look to figure out how the hell this went in.

All the video says it went right through the glove. There's a photo afterwards of this sort of, you can see the webbing all stretched out, just like kind of like a Shea Weber shot going through the net at the Olympics. Do you know who shot it? I should know this because I've discussed this on the air in Edmonton, and I can't remember off the top of my head. But yeah,

it's so like he, and that's a funny thing. So he actually has some equipment issues too. Five whole goals are a big one. wears his pads much like Jonathan Quick, like the softest pads in the league, you can grab them like you're playing a, what's the squeeze box,

what the instrument that makes the noise like that. His pads are so soft. They're 36 inches and you probably squeeze them down to like 24. An accordion? Accordian. There you go. I'm not that bright.

Musically not inclined. Yeah. Great seven, they like kick me right on a band because they just made, actually invented an art class. you're just waving your arms. Yeah, like that.

Yeah, exactly. So, like, there's all kinds of things going on here. But when you talk about, you know, looking blind, you know, blindly punching around, like I do think, like, seeing the puck, again, like, some of it is how you manage screens, are guys in certain lanes trusting a lot of that. Like, I think this will all get better for him. Yeah. But right now, like, I don't think they're great defensively.

And it's not helping him settle in behind that team. But again, it's going to look like that. that when you're playing off reads and you're not comfortable in your reads. You're not anticipate. When you rely on anticipation rather than tracking, I think you have wilder swings and ups and downs. And he's a guy to me that relies less on sort of staying on and tracking and seeing the puck and more on reading where it's headed next. And if you start giving up dynamic plays back and forth and he makes one read come across

the other way, not expecting it to go back the other way and gets caught behind discreet. because he's not a big guy either. So a lot of times when goalies get that far behind on plays and look, you know, like you said, comically bad, it's because they didn't actually see the puck get past because they're caught behind a screen. Or they make the choice to move from one side of a screen to the other as it's being passed, and that's where you, that's pretty rare at this level.

You get as far behind as some of the plays you showed and described to me Jack has this year. And usually sightlines is a big part of it. Well, there's a really good Twitter account. It's called Oil and Goal, and they like break down every goal against that oilers, goleys give up after the games. The goalies must love that. Oh, I've seen it.

Yeah, he does a nice job. It's good because he did a breakdown of Campbell and he showed, and for me who doesn't really understand this stuff, it made a lot of sense intuitively of how, and that's what you're saying about the technique, of how Campbell's stance in particular, is really affecting his ability to go laterally and why he looks like he's so far behind the,

the play on some of these because he almost is. Like he's not, he's not ahead of the curve. He's literally chasing the play and he's kind of one step behind it or two steps behind it all times. And so I've got some numbers for you here. I'm not sure what they're like at, at CSA if they're off from the public ones. But the Oilers are giving up the third most five and five expected goals against

eighth in all situations. So they've regressed defensively from the improvements they'd made after the coaching change last year. that's clear. So like, and that was one of my big questions. Yeah. Because they got a bump defensively.

He clearly, Woodcroft clearly had their attention once he came in in terms of the habits in their own end. And it can you sustain it? It's easy to get that attention in a short time frame. Yeah. Maintain like the defense is, it's work and attention to detail.

And sometimes those two things are hard to get consistently. And it looks like some of that slip for them this year. Well, but here and this is why I don't on the like while the environment. clearly has not been great. I would say part of the logic of why you go out and spend $25 million on a free agent goalie is in the hopes that they would not necessarily

be able to overcome that environment, but you wouldn't have to, for lack of a better word, babysit them, right? Where it's like there's going to be nights where because we are a rush team and we have Connor McDavid and we want to play fast, sometimes we can get into these game scripts where we're trading chances back and forth

and that's going to happen. And we just don't want to feel like every time that happens, we're going to be pulling the puck out of our own net. The other part of that breakdown of Oval and Goal that they did was showing how he's kind of kicking rebounds into that middle of slough, which really closes the loop on this entire conversation we've had here today. But here's a stat for you. According to a natural stat trick, Jack Campbell has a 753 save percentage on shot state deemed high

danger so far this season. Do you think that that is a repeatable skill in a? be telling of a goalie's ability in terms of clearly like there's issues with labeling a shot as high danger or not because there's a lot of context involved and also a lot of nuance like oh if all of a sudden a shot is slightly further out it's not high it's not dangerous anymore like so it's it's tricky when you bin shots like that but just in terms of the idea of if we're going through every shot of goalie faces over a course of a given night and you say all right that was a pretty tricky one. Do you think that there's a legitimate skill that separates goalies in being able to

be equipped to stop those better than others? I think it goes more like micro. Right. Than that. Like I think this and I think like we talked about rush chances and how intuitively based on the way he plays, I would have expected Jack Campbell to be good against the rush. So as you were talking there, I was just trying to dig into this a little bit. He hasn't been above expected against the Russian, even in either of those two seasons in Toronto with in with Maple Leafs. Like one was just slightly below two years ago and last season he was like almost, you know, not, not where he is now, but he was a full percentage point below expected on rush chances.

So, um, rebounds. I talk about the pads. Yeah. Like legitimately. Like that's in part an equipment thing. Like if that hits the top of the pads for him, it's just mushy right in front of him. I know for sure that teams try and throw pucks into his feet from dead angles because he struggles to get into some of the positions.

on his post that it would allow him to sort of control those plays. You can create more rebounds that way. And his rebound numbers are, he's getting killed on rebounds this year. It's one of the plays that's just, he's just getting killed on. Even when he gives up a rebound that's a good rebound, same side rebound,

he's just getting killed on the areas he's leaving him in. And part of that is team, not, you know, when we've seen it here in Vancouver, they can't control the front of the head. Yeah, they're not clearing it out. Yeah, but, but like, that's, like, you can get pads that kick rebounds. that kick rebounds.

So how is this happening to a professional? That's what I'm curious about. Well. Why isn't he using pads that? Okay. So this is a, this is, and this is a unique one. And it's specific to Jack. Yeah.

And I think it also, it's going to give a little, it'll help paint a little bit of a picture of, you know, I can talk about technique and I can see the equipment and what it's doing. But the game is so mental too. Yeah. Well, it's comfort. level, right? Yeah. And I think, and I think in his case, it's largely, you know, it's like, because when he's on, he's on. It's really good. And I think a lot of it is between the years.

And he's so hard on himself. Like, it's hard. That's why, you know, like picking to be in another Canadian market surprised me a little bit, to be honest with you. But when early in his career, when he was a highly tout of prospect, he went to Dallas, and they insisted on an equipment change. And they put him in a very stiff, very active rebound pat. And we all, we all all know what happened in Dallas, struggled on and off the ice and sort of lost himself a little bit. Part of the fix when he went to Los Angeles, and there's actually a guy here locally who was with the Kings, Dusty Emu, the goalie coach. One of the things that he did was let's get you back in these soft accordion-like Vaughn Pat,

same ones that Jonathan Quick has. And I think I do believe that in Jack's mind, that was part of his bounce back. Right. that he was in this soft, flexible pad that allowed him to not just block or be, you know, take up space, but to be an athletic, skilled, skating, you know, pads that move with your leg rather than pads that moved around your leg just to seal the ice. And so I think it's part of his identity. Like, he rediscovered his identity as a goaltender in Los Angeles. And I think the equipment is part of that.

And so, like, the goalie coach in Edmonton is an idiot. he knows exactly what he's seeing. I went through the goals last year in Toronto, and there were like seven goals in that you could argue if you were to nitpick a little bit, maybe even more, that go right through the five hole because of the way the pads are set up. And he's going to see that and see the same thing and be like, hey man, if we switch some things up here, like that's seven goals is a big deal.

Yeah. But he's got that association in his mind of like, I was successful because of this. So what do you lose if you force him to change? And that's the question. That's the balance. And that's why as much as we can look at all these numbers and match them to the video and see all these trends, the solution isn't always as obvious or as easy because you're always giving, there is a given take to every part of goaltending, right down to the equipment. How much of Jack Campbell do you lose in terms of his movement or his skating? With skating is still good if you make him switch a pad that's going to save you those five to seven goals and maybe help you on some of these rebound goals.

because the puck's going to come off that thigh rise and bounce past that first wave of, you know, forward sitting at the edge of the crease and kick out another 10, 15 feet off the pad. So not only does it get past that stick at the top of the crease that's on the back door, but it buys you 10 more feet of travel that you have time to recover to the other side.

Like elements like that looks like a no-brainer to me, but what do you lose in Jack's mind in terms of his style and who he is as a goaltender by forcing a change like that. I obviously not worth the risk now. I wouldn't be surprised if it gets revisited next summer. Yeah, I was going to say, would you, it would be highly odd to even be breaking in a new set of pads 10 games into the season, right? Oh, no, guys were. Oh, really?

Guys where, I don't know, like as soft as Jack and Jonathan Quicks' pads are, I'm guessing they don't go through as many as others. Yeah. But there are other guys that will, oh, yeah, guys will go through. Well, he's got an 8703 Zavisandage right now. Maybe. But it varies. Like guys, there are guys that will literally, I'm trying to think of how many sets of have.

I know a goalie who went through 30 gloves last year. So like guys get new equipment all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So he's gotten to 753 on high danger shots, 873 overall. League average this year has been 822 on high dangerous 8%. Just for some context. And I guess the issue is, you know,

you were noting that maybe Stewart's Ginner has had a slightly more favorable environment in front of them so far this season, despite the fact that they're playing behind the same team in terms of the games he's played and what he's faced. But the other problem here is optically, it's really tough when you go out and you're a team who's already kind of needing to get creative with how you spend your money

because you're already committed so much to so few players. Which just adds to the pressure. And then you put $5 million on one goalie, and then you had this guy making $750K who's outperforming you. Yeah, and I understand how it looks. And listen, I'm not trying to excuse any of that. But understand one thing. Stuart Skinner is probably not having the start he's having

without Jack there. And maybe that's not fair to Stuart Skinner because I liked a lot of the signs that he had in his game last year. Because I actually liked him when we saw him last year. So I was a bit surprised that they didn't give him a longer, longer look at it. Yeah. And there were points last year where I argued that he, you know, I do radio there weekly in Edmonton. And there were points where I argued that he should have been getting more starts in my mind from what I saw. But again, just given how little, like, you couldn't bring him in there at this age with that experience and say you're the guy. Because it changes everything in terms of the pressure points and the dynamics.

Like, there's a certain freedom with how he's playing right now. And it will get more difficult as the expectations increase. But if you don't have Jack Campbell there, I don't think, like, it's really easy to say, well, they didn't need Jack Campbell. They could have just run with Stuart Skinner. but without somebody there to take that pressure off. Like, don't devalue that. Also, don't underestimate the importance of mentorship.

Like, yeah, and a lot of people will be like, how's the guy with the 870 mentoring the guy with the 9-20? He's showing him what not to do. But like, honestly, like, and I know, like, I don't know about organizationally, but I know talking to the goalie coach there over the years, like look at the guys that have come in and had some, look at Vaselowski had Bishop, right? Yeah.

Shishdurkin had Lundquist. Schneier, Luongo here. Like there's, you know, even Dr. Datsur Demko and Jacob Markstrom, like there's value to having a guy as you come in. I think this is part of the thing that the flyers missed with Carter Hart. It was all on him right away. And he succeeded for a while,

but there was nobody there to sort of help him manage the ups and downs besides, like no peer that was sort of had been there a long time, established a number one guy to sort of help him manage the inevitable ups and downs that are going to come. They'll come for Skinner too. Like, they're just part of the game. And having someone there to help you manage that is important.

They will. I guess. And I think we actually, when, like you and I did a show right as free agency started and some of these. And we talked, we broke down Campbell to Oilers and all that, and Matt Murray to the Leafs and stuff like that. I think we actually made the point at the time, like, I would have personally preferred to see them go for like,

just try to acquire James Reimer for nothing and have him assume that role. And you look now, I mentioned there's no one gives up more rush shots in the sharks. He's above league average and save percentage before even adjust for that environment, making way less. And on shorter term, right? Yes. And somebody's going to come into the studio here

if they can get in the front door and take away my goal union card as soon as this comes out of my mouth. But that's why if I was in charge, if I was a general manager or in charge of goal-tending decisions, the one thing I would avoid, and I know I'm going to take it from the goal of union

for saying this, but I would avoid term. I would just avoid term. because it's a volatile position and Matt Murray is the perfect example. Right. Like literally, the game changed, in part because of the way the Penguins

and Matt Murray succeeded in one Stanley Cup's playing it, to the extent where Matt Murray didn't forget how to play goal, the way he played goal doesn't work anymore. And so the last couple of years have been spent trying to adjust the technical foundation, the way he moves, the way he holds his stance, the way he stands on the ice, so that he can keep up with the East West

that the Penguins started the trend towards creating and also happened at the time to be the best at preventing. And so, you know, like Matt Murray, like I said, didn't forget how to play goal, but the game changed to the point where the way he played it doesn't work. And that's in like, what, five years? Yeah. And like, so why would you give out term when it doesn't even matter what the goal he does

and whether he can keep up? The actual game changes to the point where how one goal he plays might not work three years from now. Well, especially in that example, for a player who you'd think, theoretically, would be in the age range where they'd be better suited to adjust. Like, we're not even, like,

talking about goalies who were in their 30s, right? Like, at the time, this change happened for Murray, was mid to late 20s. And here's, so here would be my example, then, of why some guys rise to the level of a Roberto Luongo and the Hall of Fame. Lou never stopped adjusting his game.

Right up until he was changing skates to get a better edge, tinkering with equipment, talking to different coaches, like right until his late 30s. If he, like, he changes skates. Like, he literally went from the lowest profile, softest skate you could wear to the highest profile, stiffest skate you could wear, with two years left in his career

because he felt like he was slipping out and losing edges and this new skate would give him an advance. Um, like the sharks, remember the San Jose Vancouver series so the year after the cup run? Yeah. Uh, first round. The sharks swept them? Just hammering him on VH off the post. Um, if you saw Lou walk up for his acceptance speech, just there's a, like, I make the joke

looks just like he looks like he just got off a six hour cattle drive. He's got the bow-legged. Like for him to hold his back pad over the goal line and a traditional VH was really hard physically. And teams were just. shoving pucks into his feet and trying to jam it in. And they had a couple called back. The sharks went to town on it.

What did he do that summer? He called up his old goalie coaching clerk so that he could learn the reverse VH. Got the video, brought it back to Vancouver and told the goalie coach here, who at the time wasn't teaching that, this is how we're doing it. Like, if you are not, and this is constant for goalies, so any young goalies listening, this is right up to the NHL right now. If you are not evolving, you are falling behind. the game changes way too fast for goalies.

You can't chase change, but you've got to keep up. And on that note, Kevin, this is a blast. We're going to have you back on very shortly. So I'm going to get listeners to send in questions that they want us to talk about and the next time I have you on. We're going to loop them in as well. This is a pleasure. Thank you for coming on.

Thank you for listening to the HockeyPediocast, streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. Thanks.