The Hockey PDOcast - Young Players Developing on Bad Teams, and How They Get Better

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

Dimitri Filipovic is joined by Steve Peters to talk about Lane Hutson and young players getting reps on bad teams, what makes Conor Garland such a play driver, and Matvei Michkov's immediate impact on the Flyers power play. If you'd like to gain access to the two extra shows we're doing each week this season, you can subscribe to our Patreon page here: www.patreon.com/thehockeypdocast/membership If you'd like to participate in the conversation and join the community we're building over on Discord, you can do so by signing up for the Hockey PDOcast's server here: https://discord.gg/a2QGRpJc84 The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Media Inc. or any affiliate.

2015. It's the Hockey PEDEOCast with your host, Dmitri Filippovich. Welcome to the HockeyPedioCast. My name is Dmitra Filippovich. And joining me is my good buddy, Steve Peters. Steve, it's always fun to have fresh blood on here. I can't believe this is your first appearance on the show, hopefully the first of many. Welcome to the show. How's going, man? It's going really well. And I can't tell you how much I appreciate getting the opportunity to be on your show. It's a, it's a nervous. It's an honor. And I look at the list of guests and can't believe I'm actually getting to talk hockey with you today. So I'm really excited. Well, listen, as I told you before we went on the air, uh, watching you last season,

me to show with Craig, uh, Morgan and Leah was one of my favorites on YouTube. But I was also watching you last week or two weeks ago, what have you on our friend Pete Blackburn's show, what chaos? And I was like, you know, Pete can't be getting these guests that I'm not having. So I had to instantly message you. It's just purely out of jealousy just to make sure I get you on as well. And my listeners can enjoy your takes as well. So we're going to have a fun one here. The topics for today. I've got some listener questions. questions from the PDO gas discord that I think can kind of guide and kickstart some fun topics for us. And so we're going to get into that and then just see where it goes from there,

trying to cover as much ground as we can since this is the last week or the last show of the week and we're going to go into the weekend having some fun. Here's the first question from Dr. Sanchez, a moderator on my PDO gas discord. So shout out to him. It says, looking at Lane Hudson's usage or just the Anaheim Ducks team in general, can you negatively impact the players' development by giving them too much ice time and too much responsibility too early in their career. How does that compare to teams who struggle to find effective places

to get big league game action to their prospects? Now, I think you're perfectly suited for getting into this question and the intricacies of it and kind of the pros and cons and weighing all the factors. After all the years you spent in the coyote's organization and going through multiple situations very similar to this where it's like,

all right, we're on the way up, we have young players, we're trying to incorporate them. They're struggling. What do we do? I don't think it's a science by any means, an exact one of that. Like there's no right or wrong answer necessarily. I think it goes on a case-by-case basis. But we can get into Cotson here and the Canadians,

but also kind of just in general applying it to the full league because I think it's something that a lot of teams are kind of trying to get the right answer to. Yeah, it's hard because you've got to weigh that balance to develop the player in the right way, so that they're effective for your team long term. But you also have to look at the situation. your team is in. And Anaheim's a great example. You got to play them. Like, look how many defensemen Anaheim has under the age of 22. And Montreal as well. Like, you're in a position where these guys, and that's the hardest position to learn in the National Hockey League at a young age is playing

defense. A four where you get Connor Bredard, you throw them over the boards. And not a, no offense to Conor-Brad. You just play like you always play. You use your skill. You use your speed. You use your hands. You jump over the boards. You play the best you can. When you're playing defense in the National Hockey League, it is more about rush reads and the ability to read in the defensive zone and quickness and speed. And the thought process, a defenseman in the National Hockey League, when he has to make those decisions happens faster than any other time in his life and any other league he's ever played in.

So Lane Hudson, to me, man, he's taking a lot of heat in Montreal. I feel bad for the kid. Like, if he could have played in Arizona, no one cared. Like, throw him on the boards. He's got four points in seven games. Offensibly, he looks dynamite, just what you want out of him. And yes, he is minus four. But go back and look at the goals that Lane Hudson's giving up.

It's when he's coming off the blue line in the offensive zone, taking a shot at the net, and there's a turn to open back the other way. Yes, he's turned the puck over. No question about it. But he's got to learn somewhere. For me, personally, I've seen it go both ways. You'd like to see a player like Lane Hudson have the ability to go to the American League and play and learn in the American League.

That's the transition of speed. You can understand the game better and you can get that. Sometimes you don't have that, that has an option. And you're going to have to learn by fire. And Jacob Chikin was a good example on the defensive side of the puck. So Jacob Chikin comes to Arizona, another highly drafted, highly touted defenseman, offensive upside. The offense was there, day one.

Kid could shoot, kid could play on the power play. But again, his inability to read rush reads, his inability to make plays in the defensive zone, know when to leave and push into the corner, when to stay home in front of the net, took him years. and he took a lot of knocks on his inability to defend. Now you watch him play now in Washington. Now he's got that full game. And I think there's a trend now in the National Hockey League.

If you're a first or a second round or a high pick, you need to play now and you need to be exceptional right away. You've got to be able to play it. And that's just not the way this league works. If you don't get an opportunity to learn the game, Arizona, there was a time when Wayne Greske was coaching. And it was Kyle Taurus, Michael Bodker, and Victor Tickenoff, all joined the team same time, all young.

And to be honest, Kyle Turst shouldn't have been there. Kyle Turr should have been at college. He came out too soon. And I really think it stunned at his growth. He went on every power play. He was on the first line all the time. He wasn't ready. And I think that really hurt him.

So the next year, for a start, tried to send him down to the minors. Oh, it doesn't like that. Agent doesn't like that. Now you got a problem. And the other problem, too, to me, Dan, I know I'm going long-winded on this, is you get players that you draft in a spot. that have to play in that spot. Dylan Strome, high draftic.

Dylan Strachan's got to play in the top six. He's Dylan Strome. Dylan Strang can't benefit by playing in your bottom six role. He can't benefit by playing 12 minutes on a fourth line role. That's not the role he's going to play in in long term for your organization. So he can't develop playing there on the fourth line. So is he better off playing in the American League? And I think that that's the decision that these organizations are having a hard time with now

because you have to placate the fan base. you have to. And now you're seeing it, Kevin Kortinski in Chicago, plays almost the whole season last year on the back end, struggled. They didn't ever pick the offense that he wanted, struggled defensively.

Now he's in the American League. Great opportunity for him to develop and be the player that they want him to be when this team is ready to win. So it's a really fine balance when you're trying to develop that young player to be the player you wanted to be in the future. What a throwback with those coyotes names.

Are those Laura Corpikoski days as well? People are looking up People are looking up names right now on Google. Who? I love that. What's better than remembering some guys? I love Mikkel Bodker's game. I think you hit on a great point there that's really tricky.

And the issue for young defensemen is you have to learn through trial and error at this level, right? Like if there's no other way to prepare for it, and that's kind of why I almost think like the Kaczynski model there that you're highlighting where it's like you get a taste of the NHL, maybe you fail. And then you go down a level and kind of work on your craft. It's perceived optically, especially for a top pick as a step back. And like, it's an ego hit, I'm sure. It takes a lot of things to get everyone on board with it. But I think I actually prefer that because at least you kind of know where the NHL game is at now, what worked and what didn't.

And then now you know what to work on. Whereas if you're taking that step and you just go to the AHL and it's like, all right, I'm playing really well. Well, you come to the NHL, you're going to get punched in the face right away. Because while the HL has a lot of pro players and is, technically a professional league. The quality of play, especially some of those like rush concept you mentioned and the speed of the game and the talent level involved that you have to deal with defending is just

night and day, I still think, between the two leagues. And so I'm not sure for a young defenseman how much that prepares you unless you actually know what the NHL speed is. The other issue is like, for a young defenseman, when you mess up through that trial and error, right, it's usually very obvious and it usually results in a goal against. Whereas for a young forwarder counterpart, you mess up, let's say like you kill a cycle sequence in the offensive zone or, you know, you make a bad read. You probably have someone either behind you or beside you that's able to bail you out and not like maybe your coach in the video session the next day is going to illustrate it and call you out and reprimand you or maybe bench you for the rest of that game.

But it's not going to be as obvious to us as viewers and it's not really going to show up on the score sheet. Whereas Hudson, you watch that game that they most recently played against the Rangers and he gets like picked. pocketed at his own blue line by Riley Smith. Two seconds later, it's in the back of the net. And that not only is a minus, but it's also a very directly traceable mistake he made that everyone is going to harp on, right? And so that's a very sort of difficult reality for young defensemen to deal with where every mistake you make is going to just be on, you know, a microscope essentially is going to be placed on it. Yeah, and that's a great example of exactly what you want from Lane Hudson. And I wish, it's a hard place to play. Montreal's hard. The media's

hard, fan base is hard. Layton thinks he can make that play. Hey, I've done before. I can go end to end. That's what they want me here. That's why they drafted me. But now the next time he brings the puck out from behind the net, he's making that play at the blue line.

And he's going to go, okay, the guy coming out of me, he's faster, quicker, better hands and a better stick. I need to make a play. So now he won't make that same mistake in the next two or three games. He won't. It's going to be fresh in his mind. He won't. He's going to make it again in 10 games.

It's going to happen again. But he's got to get that trial and error to learn, okay, eventually it becomes second. nature. Let's face it, Montreal Canadians are 27th in the league in goals against. It's not blame Hudson's fault. It's not. Like the team right now struggles to defend, goaltending, they can't defend around their net front. We can't tag it all on this young defenseman. And I think for Montreal offense, what you have to do is you have to take this now and go, okay, he's learning now. He's getting better now. He's learning these experiences now today on a team that's not going to make the playoffs, a team that's not going to be competitive for the Stanley Cup.

but two to three years from now when he knows how to play the game, when he understands how to read these these offensive schemes or these line rushes coming at him, he knows when to jump in from the blue line. Now is the time for that to happen when we're competing for a cup. And I think it's hard.

It's hard to take your lumps. And Montreal Canadian fans aren't used to it. I mean, it's owned him my whole life. Dude, that's all we do is taking lumps. Like, we're used to it. So we're always looking to the future. And I think that's what's hard for Montreal. This kid's going to be a great player.

Trust me, he's going to be very, very good. his watching his hands and walked the blue line, his attack at the net. He's going to be a really good player, but he's just got a lot to learn. Yeah, I think looking at even closer at what's working and what's not with this game is really interesting. And I want to do that a little bit here because you mentioned some of those things that are working, right? Like I think his ability to extend possession, to probe, the elusiveness, the change of

speed, how he creates base, the way he's already attacking the middle of the ice, both on breakouts and also in the offensive zone or at least trying to get there and sometimes failing, but ultimately trying, which is important, I think are all very valuable skills, and you're already seeing some of those dividends being paid on this HAB's team offensively. The issue is that, for me, if you just think about how most defensemen in the NHL right now succeed, for like 99.9% of them, it's through quick, decisive, repetitive delivery of the puck to teammates, right? Like, they're generally distributors.

I think it's really difficult to efficiently drive offense at 5-1-5 at least. from that position as a primary on puck creator who just holds on to it and attacks a 5-1-5. You can do that more easily when it's open against worst competition at lower levels. But you look at the NHL, it's like, Quinn Hughes does it now. Kail McCarres certainly does it.

I'd be hard-pressed, I think, of too many other defensemen at that position who consistently are able to get away with doing that, right? And so it's just the reality of how the game's played now. We all talk about how the pace is up, how it's faster. Teams are good defensively, they're able to get set in their own structure and zone, right? And so that, how you kind of want to work around that and counteract it,

is getting the puck up ice quickly and sort of getting it to your forwards. And that's how you create these advantageous situations offensively. And I mean, obviously the talent is lacking around him for the most part. If he's not out there with that Suzuki Coffield combination, so that's, I think, one limiting factor there. But the other is just, I'm very curious to see just from like a science experiment perspective how this goes for him because you look at some, of the metrics in particular that like sport logic's putting out there like how much offensive zone

time he had with the puck on his stick how often he's actually the one that is carrying it and Quinn Hughes is up there but for the most part like one of his rivals is like Matt Arzal who is a puck carrying forward like it's not even his actual peers right and so it just goes so counter to how we see a lot of defensemen actually succeed at this level and I'm not saying he can't do so because we do of a couple of exceptions that have kind of proven they can, it still remains to be seeing what that looks like for him, I guess, down the road. Yeah, but I think one of the things and one of the problems you hit it on the head is, who's he given the puck to?

And when that top line's not on the ice, his options are kind of limited. And he doesn't, I don't know the kid person, don't know him, never met him. But players to play like that that are used to providing that kind of offense, they want to do it themselves. and if they don't have someone, if Sidney Crosby and, if Gany Malkin are his back-to-back centers for Lane Hudson, Lane Hudson's not carrying the puck.

Dude's giving it up. Like, you, those guys demand the puck from a player like Lane Hudson, and you've got that duty to give them the puck. I think that's one of the things that's causing him to carry the puck too much. And again, you look on the negative side. Look who's partnered with.

I mean, he partnered night in and night out with another 20-year-old. So you don't have that calm, steady, stay at home defensemen that you can trust on your right side that's hey okay let the kid go I got it I'll play the two on one we're going to be fine I think that's another thing that's it's okay you want them to be offensive but you got to make sure you don't get those bad habits and that's another thing that can happen to young players and a perfect example is the emminton oilers and again I'm going to throw out old names but you're going to Taylor hall Nugent Hopkins and yakopop they had some of the best young talent in the national hockey league

horrific habits, selfish puck play in the offensive zone, didn't know how to defend. And most importantly, they learned how to lose. And losing was, I don't want to say it was okay. Because it's the NHLM, it's not okay. But it became acceptable. Well, we're young. It's a young draft card.

And the next year, well, we lose again, but it's okay. I got a few more points this year. And losing just became normal way of life in Edmonton. You worry about a team like Montreal with all of the young players that they have. You worry about it in Anaheim. Trevor Zegris now, all he has done in his career is lose. And it becomes contagious. And it becomes difficult to come out of that because you've built up so many bad habits

because you're trying to do too much. And he gave up a goal. Oh, we're going to lose tonight anyway. It's hard to break that chain. And that's why you can see some young players. Adam Fox comes in the league, plays well. Why? We're playing a really good team playing with the New York Rangers.

Evan Bouchard, young defenseman. he's got really good players to play with. So his development, it goes a little bit faster because you've got the surrounding cast to take care of you. So you worry about that with Lane Hudson. Personally, he's going to be okay. Does that mean this team is making strides? Gosh, I don't know. It's to be seen and it's years away from Montreal.

Well, and the usage and workload are important to note here because he's averaging like 23, 16 per game. But you look, the last three games, 24, 24, 30 minutes. And that coincides with Caden Goulouli. his absence in particular and the reason why I want to note that, and why I think it's notable, is you look at those partner splits that you're referencing. So when he's played with Gouli, 35 minutes 5-on-5, they've broken

even in shots, they're up in high-dangered chances, they're actually outscoring teams 3-0. When he's played with another 20-year-old in Logan Mayu, or David Savard, who at this point of his career is incredibly limited as a defender, 72 minutes, getting out-shot 49-19-18, high-danger chances 20-7 for the opposition

goals 5-1. And so, like, that's just, I think, illustrating that and night and day and why I want to like apply that context. Now you mentioned the environment there and I think that's a really important piece of this and we can use the HABs as an example here but stretch it out to the ducks or the full league. The HABs are in the situation right now where the biggest concern for me is not Lane Hudson because I can already see what he does and what he can contribute but the environment and infrastructure that they have right now or the lack thereof maybe more aptly is a concern for me. They're 32nd in the league in every single defensive

metric shots against high danger chances expected goals goals against you look at their heat map on hockey viz it looks like a gruesome murder scene it's just like a big red blob around the net and this is a constant theme for them where their 30th 31st 30th in the past three years under marty st louis in expected goals against at 5-1-5 and the reason why i kind of like mentioned that you've been through this personally yourself with various iterations of the coyotes and seen it firsthand is I get the reality for young rebuilding teams, right? Like young players, as they learn the ropes, are going to struggle defensively.

I actually generally applaud coaches for just letting young players play and getting into like fun, high-scoring environments to, you know, connect with them and allow their skill to shine and not just instantly be like, all right, well, we need to just dump and chase and clear the puck off the boards and out

and try to block as many shots as we can and try to win two-one. because you're probably going to lose anyways, but you're also kind of like limiting their own growth from a skill and development perspective. So I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth here, but I do think as an organization, you reach a certain point of diminishing returns

where it's like after years of just this repetitive, getting caved in, it becomes harmful and detrimental, right? Not only the bad habits, but it's like you reach a point of no return where all of a sudden there's just damaging long-term impacts for both organization and the team where it's like how we're playing right now does not resemble NHL hockey.

It looks more like beer league defensively where you watch that game against the Rangers on Tuesday there's just no resistance or opposition being provided, right? Like Rangers forwards are just skating freely from one end of the ice to the other, getting whatever high-danger

opportunity they want, all padding their stats, all having a great time because they're not being tested in any way, and ultimately you score a few goals yourself and it's like, all right, well, we got some points or young guys are looking good, but I'm not sure it's actually representative of what it takes to play at the NHL level. And so at that point,

how much development is really happening. And so that's kind of what I worry here when you get into the spot where it's okay for one or two years. But if you get into this endless cycle for three, four, five years, it's really, really tough to break out of and take that next leap. Yeah. And when you look for something in a way to dig out of that, even if you're losing, there are teams that are just better,

than the team you're on. It's just a fact. It's just a reality that you're going to lose hockey games. But you have to, one, you have to show improvement. And two, you have to be able to be committed to the process. I know that sounds like a coaching term, but play your system. Learn your system, player's system, and trust that doing that the right way, day in and day out is going to be successful.

When you watch Montreal, the concerns is their lack of structure and their defenses on and their inability to protect the front of the net. Hey, if Montembo is not playing the way he's playing now, this could be worse. Like, Montembo has been one of the best goals in the national hockey league to this point. Without him, it could be much worse. So I guess when I've been a part of bad teams and I've been a part of some really, really bad hockey teams in Arizona, I look at our coaching staff at the time, Dave Tippett, who looked at our roster and said, we're barely in the NHL at times.

And he said, we're going to defend. We'll do our best to win two to one and we are going to learn to defend. And I tell you, my first. my philosophy and the way I look at hockey, I think you need to defend. And I learned so much from Dave Tippett on starting from that part of your structure and work your way out. I don't see that in Montreal. The other thing I don't see with Montreal and as maybe a bigger concern is the way the

team is built right now. And I know I'm going to make some people upset with this. There's some nice hockey players. Colfiel, nice. Nick Suzuki, Gallagher, New Hook. There's some nice players on this roster. one, there's not an elite player and there's not an elite veteran experienced player

that even if he's past his prime, that guy that can go, okay, here's how you do it. And I've done it before and teach you the right work ethic in practice and say the right things in the locker room that the accountability for a good team comes from within the room, not from the coaching room,

comes from the players room. The guy sitting next to you, that's not good enough. We need to do this. We need to do this better. And I don't know, again, I can't speak, speak for the Montreal Canadians. I'm not in the room. But I look at this roster, and it's a bunch of role players that they've collected from all over the league and put them together and go, okay, they're good role players, but they don't have that, that solid guy.

Example, Nick Falino in Chicago. Nick Falino's, he's been there, he's done that. He's got a voice in that room that they can listen to and go, oh, okay, that's how you do it. They're still losing, but they're, but they're learning from somebody that's been around the league for a long time they'll play hockey the right way. I hope that made sense without sounding like I'm really hard on the Montreal Canadian. It's good young roster. But if they're going to get over the hump,

they need to make some adjustments to the way they're playing and the way that roster is made up. No, I think it's tricky because they invested a bunch into young forwards in particular early on. And so when they brought in Marty St. Louis, they just, it was the vision was let's just connect with some of these young players and give them

a chance to show off their skill and succeed. And I think clearly, especially with Coffield and Suzuki, like you can see where that's paid dividends, right? The issue is that that structural as hockey you mentioned where it's like, all right, well, the next step here from a tactical perspective, I don't really see what that blueprint looks like

unless you either bring in different players or everyone just magically improves, and we haven't seen that yet. So we'll see. It's a very tricky spot, but I think there's a lot of stuff to be worried about there because you just can't get away with playing this way over and over again

and then expecting things to magically turn around. At the same time, at least the players are young. In terms of the teams that I wanted to talk about with you here, and we were messaging back and forth about, I had the penguins on my list because I was like, I watched them, and they're by contrast the oldest team in the league, and they're making all the same mistakes. Like, if you watch their games,

it's just an endless supply of odd man rushes for the other team. There's no coverage in front of their net. They played a game against the Winnipeg Jets recently, where I don't mean to just, highlight the one guy here because everyone's messing up, but it's like Chris LaTang somehow gave up inside position to two separate jets forwards in the same play. Like they were literally,

if you go back and watch it, there's two guys in front of him between him and his goalie, and one of them winds up scoring off a rebound or a set play. And it's like, you just can't get away with playing this way. They're bottom of the league in pretty much every defensive metric, both superficial one, surface ones, and more kind of advanced ones.

And so that's an even trickier one where it's like, all right, maybe the players are just like old and slow and can't play. this way, but also it's just inexcusable because they're making mistakes essentially that you'd expect young players who are learning on the fly to make and eventually over time get out of their system. And in this case, it's like, these guys are at the end of the road and they're making these mistakes. And that's, I mean, there's absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel in that case. I'm worried about the Pittsburgh Penguins. I am. And I talked to some Pittsburgh fans and people around the organization over the summer. And there was optimism, Sidney Crosby gets resigned and

there's this new optimism. Tristan Jari is going to be the guy. eye and everything is going to be great. In Pittsburgh, Carlson is now used to the system and playing here and everything's going to be great. And it's not happening. And there's a couple of concerns for me. Crosby has yet to score a five-on-five goal at this point of the season. We know how much he's on the ice, how many offensive opportunities Codby has.

He is still going to have to be the offensive leader of this team. That's just the fact of where the Pittsburgh Penguins are built. Age is a huge issue here. The National Hockey League is built on speed. And it's not just speed to create offense. It's speed to defend. And I think you didn't see it more so than with the Florida Panthers. Their ability to defend in all three zones because they were fast.

Pittsburgh doesn't have that speed. And you brought up a player Chris LaTang. When they brought in Eric Carlson, I thought, oh, there's only one puck on the ice. What are they going to do? Like with these two guys that I, I'm going to be honest. And I'm going to, I got to watch what I say here. I have opinions about players. And Chris LaTang is a guy that I don't particularly.

think defends incredibly well over the last few years. When they were winning the Cup, he was outstanding. And what happened in Arizona, and I keep going back to things that I know inside coaches' rooms that I've been a part of, Rick Tocket won Stanley Cups in Pittsburgh. Rick Tocket comes to coach the Arizona Coyotes. Rick Tocket liked to compare Arizona Coyote players to Pittsburgh Penguin players. And it would be, it would be, all of Recman would make a mistake. All rightman Larson would make a mistake.

And he goes, in the coach's room, he would say, well, Chris LaTangwin on that. And I go, are you out of your mind? Did you not watch the highlights last night? Chris LaTang did exactly the same thing. And I think everybody likes to remember the players when they were at their best. Chris LaTang is an outstanding hockey player. He's fantastic for the Pittsburgh Penguins. However, Chris LaTang and Eric Carlson are not in Pittsburgh to defend. And if you really watch their game closely from the red line in, from the rush in, heck, I'll even go from the offensive blue line back. They're not strong at defending. They're just not. Couple that with a goaltender that started off horrific. Tristan Jari, I said this, that Tristan Jari might single-handedly get Mike Sullivan fired.

Tristan Jari is now back in Pittsburgh. He's not even with the team right now to work, quote-unquote, work on his game. And then I did say, Sullivan, I'm going to have to say it. He's the second longest tenure coach in the National Hockey League. He is one. He's an outstanding coach, one of the best American-born coaches ever had him as a coyote player i like mike sullivan but you keep hearing the same message over and over year after year from the same voice in the same way over the same situations when when i play poorly i know i'm going to hear this when i play well i know i'm going to hear this it's hard it's hard to get that jump step it's hard to get that fresh feeling it's hard to get excited to go into the rink it becomes monotonous and i'm concerned that pittsburgh might have to make a change and people keep telling me

Mike Sullivan's safe. He's safe. He's got the extension. He's got all he's won cups. I know. But if you want to see these players react differently, you have to put them in different situations. To do that, they need to have a different voice. Now, it doesn't necessarily need Mike Sullivan has to go. Maybe it's the assistant coaches have to go. Or maybe you change the structure of the way you're playing. Something needs to change because this Pittsburgh Penguin team is not going in the right direction right now. Yeah, they're tragic defensively. They're just so disorganized. And a lot of people are to blame, certainly, but it's really tough to watch in particular because there's a, there's a sort of conspiracy theory, I guess, is the best way to put it, that like, Caldiawis and our

organization are trying to like stealthily tank while keeping up the public facing appearances that, all right, well, we still have Crosby and Malkin. They're playing at such a high level of tangs here. Carlson's here. Like, yeah, we're still competitive. But then if you actually look at a lot of their moves and in particular watching them play and then trying to justify it, I can't reconcile the two. And the Chris Latang macros, like pairing is like case in point.

It's my first, first sort of thing that I'd point to is like, man, this has to be tanking. Because there's just no way you can watch this and just be like, this is our best option right now for playing. So it's really tricky. We'll see they've given up 34 goals against in eight games. They've got a back-to-back this weekend in Manhattan, Vancouver. I think that could get pretty ugly based on what I've seen from them so far. So, yeah, something to definitely monitor as the season goes along. Steve, let's take a break here.

and then when we come back, we'll jump right back into it, answer a few other mailback questions to close the show out. You're listening to the HockeyPedocast streaming on the Sportsnet Radio Network. All right, we're back here on the Hockey-Pedocast, drawn by Steve Peter. Steve, let's keep going through some mailback questions here from the listeners from the PDOCS discord. Justin says, I keep hearing that Connor Garland as a quote-unquote play driver. What does this mean specifically? That he passes well, that he carries the puck into the zone.

What constitutes the term play driving? Much like 200-foot game, I hear this a lot in hockey and I don't really know how to quantify it, what relevant stats can be used now. Garland is a player. You're obviously very familiar with firsthand seeing the start of his career. He's off to another tremendous start. He was really, really vital for the Connect Success last year,

playing on that kind of like third play driving line. Sorry to use that term again here, but we are going to get into the details of it and what it means with Dakota Joshua and Teddy Blugar. Now, I'm curious for your take on this because he's obviously an undersized player that I think has frustrated people at times just because I think he's misunderstood, right? Like when you see an undersized guy that's skilled, you expect a lot of goals and he has scored goals at an HL level, but he's also a player who's kind of more of a volume shooter.

Like if you look at his career average as his shooting percentage is always kind of capped at around like 9, 10%, for the most part, which isn't necessarily super efficient or elite in today's game. And so he goes through these spells where he's doing all. lot of right stuff on the ice. The puck is always in the offensive zone. If you're watching really closely, you appreciate it. But then you look at the box score. It's like, all right, well, he had three shots tonight, didn't score. What is there to be excited about? These guys almost making five million dollars. And it almost punches ticket out of town at the start of last year, because I think the Canucks were pretty serious about looking on to move on from them because

they were in a financial pickle. They were trying to get some flexibility. And they were at least shopping his contract to see if they could get out from under it. And now you look at it. and it's almost, he's been so valuable to him and playing so well that it's like, oh, man, he only has one more year after this one. Like, this is going to become a problem because we need this guy. And it's amazing how the optics of it have shifted. He's been the same player the entire way. It's just that now I think he's being a bit more appreciated for everything he's contributing.

Let's talk about him specifically and also just this concept in general. Like when I tell you someone's a play driver, what does that make you think of? What are you looking for when you're watching the game to sort of try and actually put something concrete to it beyond this kind of? ridiculous term. See, I think for him to be a play driver, and he absolutely is, especially in his role in Vancouver, is his ability to contribute to the offense, but not necessarily by himself. And that means him driving the net, him making great plays with his hands, what he does, and he does so well.

And that's why he was so successful in that third ride and role in Vancouver, as he matured, he finally accepted this the way I'm going to have to play. And you're right, he is undersized. But one of the things he does as an underside player, incredibly quick, he can, I'm not saying fast, he's quick. So he can be in tight spaces and you can get to the puck quickly and he can win those battles along the boards. So he can dig pucks out, even as an undersized guy,

get pucks out of the corner, get pucks out along the wall, win those wall battles and then distribute the puck. And then the plays can continue from there. And I think that's one of the things he took a very long time to understand. He has speed so can get through the neutral zone so he can generate off of the rush. He's got the ability to dig pucks out of the corner so he can generate from there and he defends well enough that you don't, get hemmed into your defensive zone for long periods of time when he's on the ice because he's

smart. And you can create turnovers out of your own end and again, get the puck going on the offensive side. But that wasn't the Connor Garland that came from the Quebec League. And this guy that was scored 130 points in 60 games. This dude, when he got to the NHL, excuse me, the American League to play pro hockey, he thought that's what he was going to do in the American league. And he took too many chances.

He lost the puck too often, tried to do everything himself, tried to be very cute. and he needed to lose those habits. And I remember I talked to the American League coaches at the time. You know, it was Steve Popfin was down there. And John Slaney were down in Tucson. It's like, if you don't change the way you play, you will be a good American League player. And that will be your ceiling.

You'll be a flashy American League player that puts up points in the American League. Until you learn to play as a teammate and put it all together, you're not going to play. And I think at that point, the light went on for him. And lucky for him when he gets. to the NFL, he got the opportunity to play with Rick Tocket in Arizona.

And one thing with Rick Tocket, and you've seen it in Vancouver, you play the right way under Rick Tocket. There is no, there's freedom offensively. I mean, you've seen it with Lyshe Peterson. You've seen him allowed players to have an identity there. But you play structurally the right way in the neutral line and the defensive zone. And once Conor Garland got to understand all of the things that are important to play well, he became an effective hockey player because you're right he can get under people's skin he's chirpy

he's mouthy he's got that little bit of edge to his game that little extra push stuff poke with a stick that people go bananas over and he learned to use that to his advantage he learned to do that with brad marchand does the same thing you get under their skin but you can use that to advantage especially as the game goes on you're going to draw penalties you're going to create more space for your line mates because people want to get to you so when he gets to gets to Tipet, Tipet, excuse me, Talket in Vancouver, it just gets better. And when you look at him prior to Tocket, that's when you go, he can't fit. He can't fit there.

Garland is going to be on the way out. And I called him right after Talkett came. He said, no, this is great for me. Love it. It's fantastic. And you really saw him blossom last season where he found a role. He had purpose. And that line was outstanding.

I think this year he's still trying to find his way. He's playing a little higher up in the lineup. But he's an effective player. that I want on my team because I think his work ethic is exceptional. His ability to create offense on his own by banking his teammates better is fantastic. And he has learned to defend. And so we couple that all together. It's a guy you want on your team.

Yeah, I actually really like him with the last Patterson because he does a lot of those things you mentioned there in terms of dirty work and just like extending possessions and doing a lot of the less clamorous stuff to allow them to then spend as much time in the offensive zone as they can. And you look this season with him on the ice at 5-15. 87 minutes. Shots are 45 to 30 for the Canucks. High Danger chances, 16 to 10, goals 4-1. And those are the 5-1-5 results. Now, how does he drive them? Combination of work ethic and motor, right? Just never stops moving, keeps competing. He's a battle winner. He's the first guy into the zone.

His puck retrievals are off the charts. And then when he gets the puck on the wall there, he's really good at with those quick motions you mentioned, getting off the wall, taking it to the net, despite being undersized. He's already drawn four penalties this season. He's plus 76 in penalty differential since he entered the league. To your point of like opponents just, he just rubs them the wrong way because he just never stops talking and competing. And that's incredibly frustrating,

especially if you're like a big defenseman and all of a sudden, you have this little guy just like in your space bugging you the entire time. He just let out your frustrations on him. He's really good at goading opponents into that. And so the term play driver, I mean, I kind of mentioned the 5-15 stats to point that out because, like, if you do these things, then there should be a connection with that and your team having more shots, chances and goals than the opposition.

And he's routinely, even on some less than stellar coyote's teams in the past, his teams never get outscored at 5-on-5 when he's on the ice. Like, he's always a positive player in that regard. And he just ultimately, for me, the way I would put it is he leaves the team, or he leaves the ice with his team in a better position than he inherited it in, right? Like he's just these constant micro advantages that he creates through all those things I talked about that ultimately just leave his team. Even if they don't score on his shift, all of a sudden start in the defensive zone, get a shot on, get a good shift going, tire out the opposition. And then either let your opponents come on or your line mates or teammates that aren't on your line come on for the next shift to continue that or come out for an offensive zone draw now because you bury the team in their own zone.

and so he just left the ice in a better position than he inherited it. And I think that's an incredibly valuable skill for any player, but particularly one on this Canucks team that plays the way that they do. I agree. And he's, I'm curious to see where his career goes. Because I think he's found his niche now. And can they keep him in Vancouver?

Is that going to be, I'll be honest, when he was in Arizona, he's an East Coast American kid. And there was always this desire back then. And he was young back then, too. And I think most players from there, they want to play where they're from.

They want to play back home. So there's always a thought he was going to end up back in the East Coast, playing the NHL somewhere around Boston. But now, last time I talked about he loves Vancouver. Like he loves the city. He loves playing for Rick Tocke. So I'm curious to see where he goes next and what Connor's Garland next chapter is going to be in his career.

All right. I want to talk to you a little bit just quickly on the flyers here because I did a show yesterday with Jack on about PowerPlays and we didn't have time to get to theirs. It was a big sore spot for them last year. I believe there were 32nd in the league out of 32 teams for those scoring at home in efficiency, creating power play goals.

And it was just like a lack of talent. They didn't have any identity there. They didn't have anyone to actually work as the engine that could set up, others up. And now you look, and with Mitch Cove, come in there, I think there's still a lot of the work in progress, right? They're only one, five and one on the season as a team. They're losing a lot.

They're getting outscored at 5-15. he himself hasn't really contributed on the score sheet there as well. He hasn't been on the ice for a 5-1-5 goal yet. So not to kind of portray this or paint it in some sort of exceedingly positive light where it's like, all right, everything is sorted out, but just specifically honing in on the power play, six of his seven points are there. And you can already see some of the incredibly detailed stuff,

in my opinion, in terms of like how he moves around. He can occupy many different positions on the ice there. He's creating space for teammates. You look at that goal. Kineckney scored on Wednesday. against the capitals. And like he's bringing the puck towards the middle of the ice up top, dragging defenders and the PK structure with him,

create space for Kneckney to be able to step into a shot on the side there from a tough angle. These are like elite level details from this young player already, not to mention the competitiveness and the fieriness. You see them like getting involved with Brandon Du Hame during a face off there, like just constantly standing up for himself and being just relentless in that regard. That's going to endear him to a lot of. of people. So I think he's going to be a star. I love what I've seen from him so far in that regard.

There's still work to be done in 5-15, certainly, but they're giving him, you look at his ice time and the opportunity is through the roof. We talked to earlier about young players and kind of balancing that usage versus habits and trying to find a right balance for it. They're just fully training wheels off despite all preconceived notions about Tortorella and like his skill overousness and how he's going to deal with a young player like this. He's just letting him run wild out there. And so I think that's really incredible. and very exciting. You have any notes on Mitchkov and the Flyers or their powerplay

or just kind of the start of the season for them? Yeah, it's funny because I actually did a lot of work on this power play over the summer and trying to figure out why they're so bad. And first thing, it's obvious, and it's going to sound really stupid. The best power plays have the best players. So when you look at the best power plays in the league, they have 30 and 40 goal scores, not on the power play, but 30 and 40 goal scores in their lineup.

And New York Rangers, Emmett, Oilers, Toronto Maple Leafs, Tampa Bay Lightning, go down the list. If you're a good powerplay, you have guys that are good players. Florida, Florida, Philadelphia didn't have that. Connecting and tip it. Good players. They're not 40 goal scores in this league yet.

And then you look at the next thing that makes those polar play successful or guys that stay together for long periods of time. It doesn't have to be all five, but it's got to be at least three of them. Tampa did it. New York did it. Edmonton did it. Again, it's the better powerplay's consistency. Philadelphia didn't have that either. Not only did they not have consistency year to year. They didn't have

consistency night to night. They had injuries were a problem. You didn't know if Tippett was in the bumper. If he's on the right flank, you don't know who's going to be on the back end. When Strysdale got hurt, is it Santa. Is it York? Is it Risteline? No consistency at all.

So when you look at this year's flyer power plate, it is actually kind of fun to watch. I think you're seeing it evolving into something. It's consistent. Yeah, connect knee on the right flank. You got Mietchkov, excuse me, on the left flank, Mischov on the right flank. You got Driesdale to the quarterback. Tippett's in the bumper. It just makes sense now.

You've got the right accommodations of right and the left. You've got one-timers on each side. Michikov changed this full structure of this power play, single-handedly. You can get that puck to the right side, and now is the defense, I'm defending on the penalty. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know if that puck's going to the middle to tip it. I don't know if it's going down low.

I don't know if Michikov's going to carry it and drive to the net. It just gives them so much versatility. And he's got something in him that if he saw his shots on goal from the, from the, that power play spot, you got to look to Leon Dreisidal, another player that's going to take that shot from the goal line, but he can creep down from the dot to the goal line on that right flank and get so close to the goal line, but still have an effective shot that has a chance to score from down there. You know, you go Venchkin and Stamco's that are higher up in the zone. The goalitender at least knows where that's coming from. When you're watching Michka,

Michko getting a shot from there, you don't know as a goaltender. You have to get to the goal line if you're in hash marks. He is going to help this power play. He has that skill. We talked about it earlier, though. He's still a kid. He's still young. He's still learning. And he's used to playing in a league that the structure may be not as tight in the KHL that you're seeing in the national hockey league.

It's just a different game where he was allowed to carry the puck more offensively, where he didn't have to rely on his teammates where he had a lot more leash and a lot more latitude. I think that he's going to have in Philadelphia. You have to learn structure. And I think he's in the right place with the right coat. And I know people say Tortorella, oh, he's a hard, he's a hard guy, but he's not. John Torrella was an assistant coach in Arizona. He's one of the first coaches I ever had the opportunity to work for.

Might be one of the nicest human beings off of the ice of any coach I've ever worked with. He's just got this persona because of his shortness with the media. But one thing with John Torrella, there is no gray. It's black and white. You do it the right where you just don't do it. And I'm going to teach you to do it the right way. be time to do it the right way and I'll help you learn to do it the right way, but you have to do it the right way.

And I think that's where where Meechkov's really fortunate because he's going to be in a position where he's going to learn how to play in the NHL properly. He's going to learn how to defend. He has to do. If he doesn't learn how to defend, he won't play. And flash you from the blue line in, I think Terterewell will let him play. And I think he'll let his creativity. But between the blue lines and the defensive zone, he's going to learn how to play.

And I think that that's the right coach at the right time with the right team. I'm surprised they're one and five. I really am. I thought this Philadelphia Flyer team was going to be better out of the gate. Still not sure about their ability to defend and their goal attending. But you're seeing the power play is now 12th in the league. It's not 32nd. It's not first,

but it's not last. So I do think that the improvements are coming with this Philadelphia Flyer team and make no mistake. It's going to be through Matt Faye Mitchcock. This is the kid that's going to carry this team on his back for a very long time. But I think he's looked great through seven games on the National Hockey. Yeah, I'm impressed with just the details. He's such a conductor out there.

You're right. The power play is significantly improved. It's nearly doubled their goals per hour. They're 29th at 515 in shooting percentage and 30 second insane percentage. So that's a pretty good thing to point to as why they're struggling right now. It is also interesting, right? Like something I talked about a lot last year is this rush identity they had. Like it made them so watchable for me.

They were just really letting guys like connect knee and Tippett and Frost and Forster. Like if there was an opportunity, just go. attack and I thought that was not only laying an infrastructure or a blueprint for like how they wanted to play once they infused more talent once Mitchcoff came over and other guys, but also a great way to gloss over their talent deficit where it's like we know that off of set plays in the offensive zone, we're going to have a tough time creating offense. So we're going to try to catch you by surprise in transition. And then unfortunately on the power play, we know it's much more difficult to get those rush opportunities because it's pretty much predicated on talent and skill and set plays.

And so that's why they struggled there. I like to see the improvement. I still think they're like that game they played on, it was the only game on Wednesday after the Frozen Frenzy on Tuesday. So everyone, you know, no other choice to watch it, but I really enjoyed that game. I thought it was a really fun back and forth one between the Capitol. So I still will be tuning in.

I'm curious for your take. We've got a few more minutes here. What are you watching right now? What's got your eye? Because, you know, last year you're covering the coyotes exclusively. And obviously you're aware of what's going on around the league and you're keeping tabs and stuff. but you're mostly focused on the games that the one team is playing.

Now that you're kind of covering more of the league and really touching all the different bases. In the first couple weeks, what's kind of caught your eye here? And what do you think is the most interesting thing that you're tracking moving forward? What was surprising to me is how many teams that I thought were going to be really good started up really bad.

Colorado, Edmonton, Nashville. You can turn to those teams and go, oh, my gosh. Like, I had Nashville in the Western Conference finals. I have Edmonton, a lot of people having the Stanley Cup final. I don't, but that's for another time. And the Colorado Appalach, certainly you thought they were going to take a step forward. And one thing I was saying about Colorado is I keep hearing, well, the injury riddle, a lot of injuries. Landiscag hasn't played in two years.

So let's not talk about Landiscag anymore. When he comes back, right, but let's not use him as always injured. He's not a part of this team for two full seasons. And Nachuskin, injured maybe. not the right word there either. Arturi Leckenin, huge piece that's missing. Devon Taves is back. But I think what Colorado has had is the same problem Colorado has had for years. They win the Stanley Cup with good goal attending. Darcy Kemper was good. It wasn't great. It was good. It was good. And that was good enough on an outstanding team that was very deep through the middle of the ice and had a great bottom six.

What I've seen for both of these teams, when I talk about Edmonton and Colorado specifically, teams to play up-tempo, quick hockey. is that they've really suffered in their ability to roll four lines and their depth has really hurt them. And Colorado, it's been about their goaltender. It's been a problem for years. I can't believe it was not addressed over the soft season. Can't believe it. And you're looking at Annen's playing great right now. Capococcanin is supposed to be available soon. Are they going to travel with three? I don't know. But that's been their big issue. The fun part is watching them connect again. And I tell you what, right now, right now, McKinnon and McCar together on the ice on the power player five and five are absolutely dynamic

to watch you look at Edmonton kind of the same problems skinner started off poor they couldn't find their offense Connery David couldn't score but once they got the they got going again they got their feet going they got their speed going I think they've been better emminton's problem to me is going to be the lack of hollow a foal that depth depth forwards down the bottom six that they don't have anymore And I'm concerned that the bar might be set pretty high for a team at Edmonton that just got older and slower. Nashville? Yeah. Go ahead.

No, I just say Nashville. Nashville, every said Nashville was, oh, my gosh, they're bad. Oh, they lost a bad Nashville team. Nashville had more shots on goal than any team in the league. The worst shooting percentage. Nashville is a good hockey team. Soros isn't going to be that bad that long. Nashville is a good hockey team with good players.

It's just going to take them a while to get Marchesville and Stamco's up to speed. We talked about changing environments. just wait. Nashville's, they're going to be okay. All three of those teams will be fine. It's just surprising me they started off so poor. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I'm willing to get the more runway, obviously, Nashville,

when you lose whatever, the first five games or not, you build a hole for yourself there, and it's really tough to overcome that as the season goes along, particularly in a competitive central division. But you watch that game. They played most recently against Boston. It's a good team. They're generating a lot.

They got some saves from Soros, and that's much more like what I expect from them. So despite the results, I'm not that worried about them. The Colorado point is interesting because obviously the goaltending, there's a lot of like goals where it's like, oh man, that was a backbreaker. And that's a really tough one. But you watch that game they played in Utah last night. And that just really kind of highlighted for me.

And it's tricky because once you have like an older veteran group, especially one that's already won a Stanley Cup or gone under the mountain top, I think it's really difficult to channel what you need every single night, especially in October to start a season. I think you're kind of pacing yourself more and just playing it that way because you watch that game. And it has a great box score, right? I think he only gives up the one goal and the Krauss breakaway at the end. But for the most part, they're just doing such a better job once they're actually trying of limiting the backdoor plays that are doing them in, defending in front of their own head, some of the stuff we talked about with Pittsburgh

where they're struggling. And a lot of that stuff, ultimately defending at this level, just comes down to effort, right? Not that you're not trying, but like just going that extra mile to pick up your guy or tie up a stick or box out for a rebound. and they weren't really doing that early in the year. Now they've played some softer teams as the schedule has gone along and racked up some wins and gone back on track. But I think their effort in front of Annen

has just been significantly better as a team collectively than it was at the start of the season for the first couple of games or their bleeding goals again. So that's something I'll be watching, obviously, as they get healthier. I think it'll be easier. And you're right, Dave's coming back is huge. Lekinen, when he comes back, hopefully,

is going to be massive as well. Unfortunately, I was sort of joking earlier this week about how that first line left-wing's spot. There's been like a hex placed on it where like you get to play, score some goals playing with these guys. And then something bad happens to you. Sounds like Ross Golden broke his hand or something or got hurt last night after scoring a goal again as well. It's like, man, I wish I had a nail that one because I was almost joking. It's like tongue and cheek. And all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, he got hurt. So, um, your fault. Everyone's going down. All right, Steve, this was great.

I'm really glad we finally got to get you on and kind of cover as much ground as we did. I'll let you plug some stuff on the way out here. Let the people know where they can. check you out and kind of what you're doing these days. Yeah, I mean, jump on, follow me on Twitter at S. Peters Hockey, and I'm a part of the All-City Network. So if you want to jump on PHNX, Hockey, DNVR, Hockey, CHGO, PHLY, and the All-U-Tahawkey podcast. Awesome, buddy.

Well, keep up the great work. Really enjoyed having you on. Hopefully we can do this again as the season goes along. That's a wrap for us on another week of shows. Thank you for listening. Have a great weekend. And we'll see you back here Monday with more of the Hockey, on the SportsNet Radio Network.