The Hoely Hour - E175 Incelmania

Episode Date: March 15, 2024

RIP bell hooks, you would have loved The Hoely Hour. How long should it take you to get over your cheating ex? Experts (us) say "whenever the f*ck you feel like it." Amelia does a deep dive on incel's misconceptions about women. (Surprisingly, incels don't know everything about them... who knew?) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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May slow when network is busy. See terms. Our listeners are going to be like, I thought this was supposed to be a fucking funny podcast. Why am I crying at the end of all of these episodes? What happened to these bitches talking about their sex lives? Welcome to The Holy Hour, a podcast about sex, relationships, mental health, and everything in between. I'm Amelia Sampson. And I'm Liz Ball.

Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at The Holy Hour. I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Amelia Sampson. And I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Liz Ball So Hard. You can also watch us on YouTube or listen ad-free on Patreon at patreon.com slash theholyhour. Check out our merch at theholyhour.com and email us your spicy stories at holyhourpodcast at gmail.com. This episode is sponsored by GarageBand. GarageBand and tiny Coca-Cola. Because the mini size is cunty.

This episode is also sponsored by Ellen DeGeneres. that's controversial I know when I when I put my water in this I was like I can't hold it up on just if I don't know if Liz is gonna leave this in when she's editing but I went to the Ellen DeGeneres show twice I flew to LA two times specifically to see Ellen all before she was canceled like all before she was emotionally canceled not just the show and so I have all of this Ellen merch I have like four pairs of Ellen underwear and like not from a pack like I individually bought four pairs of Ellen underwear I have a mug I have a water bottle which is always really funny to bring to the gym um because I look like a controversial gay I do

I feel like maybe I have a um a hot take on Ellen DeGeneres I think that it's kind of annoying that she is canceled but like louis ck has a fucking career yeah still um and i know that they do have two different audience types yeah that's just so i know that the standards are going to be different but i also think that like it is there is some misogyny in it absolutely and i also think like it is fucked up of her to um make this whole career off of like i'm a nice person but she's actually not yeah i think that's what it is but also like critical miss thing she's been being a circus dog host to use your ramp and you know that you should have seen the parkour shit she was pulling earlier

today she's feeling spunky today it's a weird monday it is she's also i feel like me and my whole team were like frazzled all day i feel like the bunny represented because she's like bred to hunt hares and i feel like the bunny representation because she can't survive in the wild i think she's part bunny like i feel like she's you know what i mean like she's like she's inherited she's like a little like a little sniffing a little rabbit exactly her nose is always twitching anyway uh i just like the thing with ellen is like the whole like this is a toxic workplace it's like you and you and everyone else yeah you know it's like i get it doesn't make it okay it really truly doesn't it's not an excuse but you can still like point out the whole

in something um and I also am like yeah she made her career off of being like I'm a nice and funny person but also think about like fitness influencers who make their career off of selling a fitness program but they just got a bbl that's so true that's such a good point and I also think you know like gym influencers aren't falling under the same category as Ellen DeGeneres yeah who made her entire brand gay nice lady that's so true that's such a good point so there i mean there are i think there are higher standards and expectations in the queer community yeah also i've seen queer people say like ellen degeneres is just like a lesbian for straight people i was just about to say i don't a gay thing for straight people

i feel like ellen when ellen first came out was like a lesbian for the queer community and then like i feel like just like as her career went on and the ellen degenera show like became what it was it really is like a lot of the inspirational stories that she would show of like people who like love her so much and like she's changed their life are all straight people you know but i saw like a a bit where people were talking about um something gay that's for straight people and something straight that's for gay people oh i love that i'm trying to remember katie perry i think was something straight for gay people maybe lady gaga definitely lady gaga we know that we know that for sure ariana grande no oh the gays love ariana i mean at least they did ethan slater

thing yeah kind of soured a little bit happy eternal sunshine release month everyone i'm trying to think of more straight things for gay people um straight things for gay people uh harry styles i don't know i feel like the the the gays no i feel like harry styles is i mean he's for everyone yeah yeah love him um he seems like a queer coded thing for straight people oh I have one something that was gay for straight people is the YMCA yes absolutely you you hit the nail on the head thank you the YMCA is absolutely a gay thing for straight people um I'm really drawing a blank on something that's straight you've had it you've had a big day we won't say why but you have had a big day it's been a long one yeah liz's brain is tired so i'm

gonna be driving most done a lot of thinking yeah and i you know actually i had the most you know i had one of those days where everybody was so annoying to me like i would get a text that was just like delightful from someone and i'm like shut the fuck just leave me alone well you know what when you do get your period we are on the same cycle that's true and i'm predicted to have mine within the next three days okay which is also part of the reason that my brain is just like what's going on yeah whenever i get that kind like when my boobs start hurting i'm like oh it's gonna rain yeah already it's like i have espn or something um so the like public perception of things like the whole ellen degeneres thing is actually a good lead into my main topic that

i wanted to talk about today which i know that you don't want to show on your back i mean i know the tea you know which is the most which is really all you need to know for those that don't i also know the love is blind tea for the most part fuck yes oh my god the reunion is on wednesday and me and frank have been planning our entire week around being there when it drops i'm so it's gonna be juicy but um vanderpump rules so for those of you that don't know ariana was dating tom sandoval ariana's best friend ariana not ariana grande yeah yeah i know we referenced ariana grande earlier i'm just trying to keep the audience no no that's good thank you on the same page this is now in a different universe from vanderpump ariana maddox is her name she

was dating tom sandoval for like 10 years james terrible singer james kennedy was was engaged to raquel raquel and ariana were best friends james and tom were best friends tom and raquel started fucking on the low low and it blew up and turned into scannable that is the most simple version of this explanation what i wanted to talk about was recently in vanderpump rules and also online everybody is like getting on tom sandoval's side like basically yeah they're basically like not really but they're like kind of turning against ariana in the sense of like she's acting so high and mighty like like people get cheated on get the fuck over it kind of mentality because she's mad and hardly any time has gone by you know and especially especially when they when those

episodes as long as you fucking want especially when those episodes were recorded that was like three months after the fact and like like all of these people exist in the same sphere and so she has to worry about like seeing him all the time they still live in the same house because he refuses to leave because they're oh my god they bought it together he's trying to buy it out from underneath her but it's worth more now than it was before so it's a mess and so like people in the show are like starting to forgive tom and like ariana is like i can't be friends with anybody that's friends with him which feels like understandable for like the time frame that it's happening in but it was making me think about how like I feel like whenever anybody gets cheated

on or wronged in some way and then like talks about it the audience turns against them so fucking fast every single time I feel like the only time that the cheater remains like the villain is when the person that's cheated on says nothing like the try guys guy like he's forever cemented as a villain because we just kind of that's where it ended you know um god there's just like all these examples of like people that have cheated but like i'm also thinking a lot about um the there was like tiktok drama with this one guy who like had a bunch of girlfriends and like one of the girlfriends came out and was like talking about her experience with it and she kind of like kept talking about it because people were interested in it and it got to a certain

point where people are like why are you still talking about this like we fucking get it like get over it like everybody gets cheated on and it's like it made me think about like what is the appropriate amount of time to be like to heal from something because i remember when i was going through my breakup i was like is everybody just do people get over things better than me or is this a normal time to be sad about something um i've talked to my therapist about not not this circumstance of like being cheated on or whatever um just more so processing like a betrayal in a relationship and you like i'm sure that ariana is sick of hearing herself fucking talk about it but you have this like rage inside of you that you you know she's not going to behave like

a fucking 14 year old boy and punch a wall yeah she's like under a lot of scrutiny so you can't just get over something but your brain is going to continue like mulling things over until you're bored yeah and for a relationship they were in a relationship for a very long time 10 years she's gonna be thinking about this she's probably not gonna be able to move past it for at least five years absolutely easily i think she has every right to talk about her life and what happened to her and it was the ultimate betrayal her best friend like her life doesn't exist like just be because she's part of a reality show and it she doesn't exist to solely entertain people she's still a person with feelings yeah and if you don't want to consume her talking about being

cheated on then don't fucking like pay attention to that like watch something else if you don't like it anymore totally i don't know don't be like i'm bored you need to do something else yeah yep exactly no 100 and people are saying things like on the show like she has gotten so many opportunities she like did a few um a few shows for uh chicago on broadway she was like a minor character in there yeah roxy heart's a big character was she was one of the leads was she a big character in it oh i thought she was just like one of the jailhouse girls i thought she was roxy heart i don't know i could be wrong yeah she was roxy oh shit good for her yeah that's a whole damn okay well damn well that's even cooler but so she did a few runs of that she

like got all these like commercial spots when she when scandal all happened and like she's like getting booked for everything right now and so i feel like there's like an aspect of jealousy maybe especially with people in the show that had been cheated on and had gone through things and didn't get the same level of like career boost well i think that ariana got a career boost out of it because of her emotional intelligence yeah and her ability um to verbalize her emotions and not like just accept the bullshit and let this obvious narcissist yeah and i'm not just like using the narcissist word yeah like willy-nilly like um there she doesn't let this narcissist gaslight her on television which i think when you're in an argument with someone who's good

at arguing and like gaslighting you you get confused yeah and you're like well wait what did you just say and they make you question and she is very easy at being like absolute or she's very good at being like absolutely not yeah and that's very difficult to do so i think seeing that was just like impressive and inspiring because it it shows a woman standing her ground yeah um but also like i don't know if you saw a clip of tom sandoval on nick vile's podcast but he like shows up he's a fucking asshole and like nick vile calls him out and tom is trying to gaslight him and i saw someone breaking it down i don't like listen to that podcast but just saw watching someone um break down like all of the like narcissistic tendencies that tom

sandoval had and like i don't know i did you he doesn't deserve a redemption arc no but he's getting one fucking liar and i i think the reason that he's getting one is because lisa vanderpump is is a producer on the show and she has she's in business with him and so if sure her if she might lose an investment on her money if like because he has two restaurants with her and one of them just got like bombarded with bad yelp reviews when this all came out um and so yeah it just feels like there's maybe like a piece of it that has to do with money but there's also like it doesn't it's interesting the reason i brought up to like the people that stay quiet are usually the ones that like don't like people just kind of like villainize everyone else raquel is in

rehab right like um like psychological rehab right now on the show and she was for a while so she's not on the show she yeah she's also just like has a hard time i guess her thing is like she gets manipulated easily and she like doesn't want to and now she's coming out saying all this shit about tom like he planned all of this just for a story arc like he used me yeah wow yeah i mean yeah it sucks that she like it is fucked up she did that absolutely but i also think that she's a victim of this narcissist as well absolutely which is what she's saying now too so I also want to clarify I know you and I have said this um or I've talked to you about it at least like an explanation is not an excuse no it's just a reason like to help understand why

a situation totally happened so I think it's an explanation I don't think it's an excuse no for sure I think that a lot of what Raquel does is very evident that she's she is just entirely lost and clueless and I think people like Tom Sandoval see people like that and they like really latch on to it it's like a willing participant yeah yeah and I mean I think um since she's on TV there might be a piece where she's kind of emotionally stunted yeah it's it's really sad like there was a the last like line of last season after all this Sandoval stuff came out Raquel was like I feel like I have to go along with whatever Tom Sandoval says now because if I don't have him I have no one which is exactly how narcissists work they like they alienate

they alienate you so you you have to go along with whatever they're doing which is terrifying it's really sad so sad and like I I can only imagine how lonely that feels and then to kind of become a public enemy that'd be really difficult and I don't think most people are able to comprehend like the mass criticism that people like that receive yeah and like most people would not be able to handle that in any capacity no no i really truly can't begin to imagine but then it's to bring it back to why i brought this up in the first place like it sucks that like publicly everybody's gotten over this because of like the 24-hour news cycle and this got over this had like a you know 150 hour news cycle like this this was a story for longer than

most things are in like entertainment but everyone is over it and now we're seeing ariana go through it and they're like like we're already over it like why is she still being like this you know and then like all of her friends unquote are like you're not the queen of the group just because you got your heart broken like get the fuck over it and it's like the the idea of having like when like i said when i was going through like my heartbreak and like when i got cheated on in a lot of ways i'm still not all the way over that like i'm over it in the sense of like i'm not crying about it every day obviously it was like years and years ago but there's always a you can't erase the grief that you experienced when you when you reflect on that grief you are

always going to feel a piece of it absolutely you're gonna remember how horrible that experience felt yeah it's just like a little ping of a reminder like in your heart where you're like yeah it's a horrible feeling remember how it felt yes right because the body the body keeps the score but i i think i want to talk about this or wanted to talk about it just because it's like it I feel like there people must feel like they have to just get through grief and get over it and that's like not enough time for people to know to get over things because that's what's being shown to us have you seen the comparison of grief being like a ball in a cup no um the the ball of grief doesn't get smaller your cup gets bigger damn my therapist is like it's always

going to be a part of your painting but it becomes less of a part of your painting as you paint around it and that's so true well and grief is such a universal feeling and i think that the way we consume media um like i think tiktok is a big part of that uh just the constant need for dopamine and input so everyone's consuming all this drama yeah and then they're like okay I'm so bored of this I don't want to see it anymore like that says more about you yeah I'm treating this person as purely entertainment and not thinking about the piece where like how difficult grief is yeah and grief comes in all different sizes and colors you know yes like grief of losing a relationship grief of like someone dying like and I mean even like the

grief of betrayal that's a whole other kind of pain yeah and especially i mean going back to this is just an example obviously that we're talking about vanderpump rules but i can't imagine the betrayal of like the person that i've chosen to spend my life with and then my best friend oh who does everything with the two of us as a couple like oh my god i would be inconsolable for a very long time yeah imagine how difficult it would be to start trusting people again after that yeah so imagine like going through such a traumatic public experience and then everyone telling you to get over it yep I can't I really can't when I started my like grief diary like back in 2020 I that was a huge thing I was worried about was like because it's so easy to

for people that don't know you to devalue what you're going through and that is such a vulnerable thing and you have to be so strong to be able to like see that and be like they don't actually know and it's difficult like the first day that I posted the video of me healing from heartbreak like some of the comments were like you're the one that asked for the break in the first place like you're not allowed to be sad and it's like there's that's the public leaves so much they leave no room for nuance like and I don't understand that like if you can analyze yourself and make room for nuance why do you think you're the most important fucking person in the world that you deserve nuance and no one else does yeah it doesn't make any sense yeah this was a good

segue into my one of my breaking boobs if you don't mind i i don't i would love to hear what um the knowledge you're about to drop on me welcome to this episode of breaking boobs we're gonna be talking tits today thank you we need to have yes oh my god i was just about to say we need to have a theme song that's it wow i feel so inspired we can switch it up every time too why should we when we have something so perfect that's true well i was by switch it up i mean you can arrange um how yeah exactly exactly you can switch it up i love that move aside npr um okay so this is a news week this was published

january 17th of this year so it's a little outdated um but it was updated february 9th So, it's less outdated than one may think by about three weeks. The original one is published in January? That's not that long ago. You know, the days are long and the months are short. Watch the days go by. Glycerine. Have you heard that song?

Yeah. That was beautiful. Thank you. I just transported. Back to like, what, 2000? I don't know, a dirty basement somewhere in the 90s. Yeah, it was like early 2000s. Okay.

so the headline of this is um incel's view of what women think is important is wrong studies find i know i know i know to hold on to your hats that was probably shocking but i do think that this is an interesting study yeah yeah it is it's going to be interesting to have the insight on what they think women are thinking about yeah totally this is prioritize agreed because it's like like we say with our fake shock here like it's so obvious that they're wrong but they won't hear that they're wrong there is some important like distinctions and like the study that they did though that but still it's interesting when it's written out um hit me so this paragraph is important it doesn't say what they found but it's important incels have

significantly poorer mental health compared with similar samples of single men putting them at increased risk of self-harm previous studies have shown incels well hello incels incels mating difficulties and poor french incel incel incels making difficulties and poor mental health which includes such conditions as severe depression anxiety and loneliness may influence each other um i mean yeah yeah but it's interesting that like i think of incels as such a they're all such individuals they're just like sitting in this like fucking melting pot together but they're all still like they go there because they're this type of way they're siloed right a bunch of siloed people but they're really having discussions um a significant proportion of incels also exhibit

traits associated with autism spectrum disorder one 2022 study for example found that the rate of diagnosed autism was far higher in its incel sample than the global prevalence i thought that that was very interesting i've never read that anywhere i've never known that do you remember um the guy i think it was a college in california and he like yeah shot i don't know if he actually killed anybody yeah or rogers what was his name yeah um rogers and then he had this like manifesto and i remember seeing parts of it and essentially he is mad at women for not it you know acknowledging his existence or wanting to date him or like whatever yeah and the way that he explains it and that it's written i when i think about it now too when you are in a patriarchy

and the the value of men is how much attention women pay to you you're going to like assume that's your value yeah and you're like if that's how you're interpreting things you're going to lash out and I I can definitely see how autism could play a role in like these are what are societal norms that I am trying to fit into yeah and the masking just doesn't work yes it would I imagine that would feel incredibly frustrating and lonely totally and I'm you know again an explanation is not an excuse of course i am i'm saying like that makes sense to me why the um autism among um incels is a bit higher because you're not learning from like the emotional nuances of things you're learning from what is being taught to you in like

patriarchal expectations and i mean you look at um your entire life in those elliot roger i mean when he did the shooting and then committed suicide he left behind some videos and like how he talks in these videos it's so clear that he's like learned everything that he knows from like movie villains and like like anime villains like he talks like he like talks like them and like laughs like them he's like like it's just you could tell like everything that he's learned is from what he's consumed and a big piece of that too was that's how you're interpreting the world totally and he had he came from a lot of wealth like his dad was some like big black hollywood guy and so he drove like really nice cars and dressed really nice and he couldn't understand

why women like wouldn't want to date him because he had all of these nice things he's not a bad looking dude i mean like yeah being a man with money that's also like a societal value amongst men yeah explicitly that's a good segue Liz thank you um yeah continue your list and then I'll sprinkle my opinions okay I love it at the end um so for this study the researchers surveyed 151 incels and 149 non-incels from around the globe this is also self-reported so yeah and take it with a grain of salt the issue too is that I'm sure that a lot of the non-incels are actually incels they just like don't call themselves that you know what I mean have some kind of identify i don't know some kind of similarity totally a through line so this says

the findings indicate that incels are characterized by low levels of self-perceived value as a sexual or romantic partner it also showed that people in this community make fundamental errors about what females look for in a romantic partner for example they overestimate the importance of physical attractiveness and financial resources while underestimating the significance women place on intelligence kindness humor and loyalty which what's so annoying about this article to me is like we've been fucking saying that like all day i'll reply to these like idiots on the internet just like no i don't give a fuck if somebody has a lot of money like if you could make me laugh that's like so much that's worth so much more i just don't want you to be in debt yeah right i

don't want to marry someone with debt because then you're marrying their debt right totally is that too much to like i but then they just have like some financial be fiscally responsible in a reasonable manner yeah and be working on your debt have a plan exactly i think that is a good place to be yes and then period um i know we've talked about this before but like a sense of humor indicates like intelligence yeah essentially so when you can have that banter with somebody um it's like a indicator of like a high linguistic ability yeah and that is appealing to women totally but I mean I'm sure that they're gonna even if this like hit hit them like they saw this and they're like okay maybe y'all have been right which is never gonna fucking happen but

even if it did they would probably like figure out a way to turn this into being like a fault of women that they only want smart dudes because it's way more painful to hold the mirror up to yourself yeah and be like oh this is an issue with me yeah yeah and I mean that I think is a result of deep trauma yes absolutely deep-rooted trauma furthermore this is where it gets interesting furthermore the researchers found contrary to certain mainstream media narratives that incels have lower standards for partners compared with non-incels isn't that interesting that is very interesting because they act like really contradictory yeah i thought that that was very very interesting like they like i mean we'll keep reading yeah i'm like what are the standards

the research marks a crucial step forward in understanding the problems incels face and represent in society says this researcher william costello unsurprisingly incels have a low sense of their own mate value but interestingly evidence shows that men are most inclined toward misogyny when they doubt their appeal to female partners and that unwanted celibacy independent of incel identity predicts misogyny that is so interesting so it's it makes so much sense but it's so interesting to see it written out well this is similar to what we were talking about before we started recording um I saw a clip of Esther Perel you know doing a Q&A and um a man asked her a question I don't remember what the question was but she was basically explaining

that um it it's similar to what we we've been talking about with like modern men now having not really having as much of a clear place yeah among society because there is this desire to change but not really a path forward um and she goes on to explain and point out how with feminism women have been able to challenge society's expectations of them and they've had you know 50 years or more to push those expectations and to create their own identity so there is a lot more like confidence and conviction in how women choose to live their lives and represent themselves and with men the expectations of masculinity have been the same yeah under patriarchy so when you they're like where do I start when I'm trying to challenge these expectations that

aren't working for me yeah um and she also explains how with masculinity you're challenged to prove your masculinity it's like well you're not manly if you don't do this you need to prove that you're a man you need to prove that you're manly and that is a very fragile like way of interpreting yourself yeah so you're constantly having to prove your own masculinity to other men but you don't need to do that with femininity like we're not being challenged in the same way of like well you need to prove that you're feminine yeah because women have been carving out their own identity for the last 50 plus years so you could just straight up be like uh no yeah why yeah totally um the speech prof on tiktok chesco who listens to the podcast i learned yeah and you've

talked about him a couple times i adore this man but he's a very good example of like this toxic culture online being like oh you're just like you you clearly have mommy issues like you like you are not a man like and he's just kind of like makes fun of them back he doesn't give a fuck like clearly yeah you know because why is your identity as a man so fragile that it's threatened by another man just like having basic empathy yes and bananas it totally is so i do feel like there's this like counterculture now of men that feel comfortable being like i don't give a like i paint my nails because i a either like the way it looks b my young daughter wanted to paint my nails you know it's like there's like it doesn't need to be boiled down to this very like specific

idea of what being a man is it feels like the other counterculture that's happening we talked about this last week with like trad wives of like you're doing it wrong if you're not trying to be like very very feminine like it feels like it's kind of starting to creep in a little bit but it's it's different like there hasn't been there haven't like men and manliness hasn't been like you're saying allowed the evolution that like femininity has been able to experience so it does make it difficult for men today to like fit into like the narrative shifting yeah and i i think that you know masculinity or the the expectations of masculinity can't change without feminism yes yeah and i mean i guess i can also imagine like how difficult it would be as a man to

not be allowed to explore your yourself in the same way you are as a girl like I'm I'm thinking about when I was a kid and everyone telling you like girls can be anything you know there was that huge wave of like 90s feminism yeah um but I mean we did grow up with that because our moms also grew up with that of like well I had all these bullshit expectations put on to me and I'm not gonna put them on my daughter i'm gonna let her know she can do whatever she wants yeah so there is a lot more um opportunity for girls and women to be like no i don't want to be a girly girl i don't want to be wearing makeup and dresses and shit i want to be comfortable or i do want to be dressing up like a princess yeah and wearing my crazy outfits to school like yeah there's just a

lot more room for exploration where like yeah there isn't really that for boys and yeah it when boys do challenge those things then they're scrutinized yeah um or it's a fucking headline like harry styles wearing a dress and on the cover of vanity fair which is it really that big of a deal right are we talking about this like for weeks it's fucking crazy well and like let's look at the history of fashion fashion has been so boring since the 80s yeah um and i actually watched a woman explaining this because if you think about how extravagant fashion used to be the industrial revolution is what kind of like pushed fashion to become a little bit more basic because now machines are making clothes so they're a lot more standardized and simple

versus like this kind of like intricate like people aren't making clothes anymore yeah so we don't see it as often and it also has a lot to do with wealth distribution so like in the 80s when reagan was in office it's very interesting that it has a lot to do with wealth distribution and you can kind of see late stage capitalism's influence in fashion yeah and it's why you don't see a lot of variety you know there's it's t-shirts and jeans all the fucking time yeah so that's a good point yeah i hadn't thought about that it was also the reagan era was the 80s reaganomics baby well done um protecting the rich i'm gonna go on with this uh because it also bolsters what you were saying just thinking about the disappearance of the middle class

even though the middle class is what built the country but i don't think that i don't know if we'll see the end of capitalism in our lifetime absolutely not absolutely not there's that doesn't mean like just because we won't see the benefits of it right now doesn't mean like we can't be the people in the past who paved the way for people in the future to be living a better life yeah like think about all the women who fought their asses off for like voting rights for women knowing that they're not going to have all of the rights that men have but they're going to fucking try while they're here so we can have a more like a better future yeah as women totally yeah we can have more equality so

reach i think that's like that is something that sucks with social media is like you're not going to see the immediate payoff of the end of capitalism and late stage capitalism in your lifetime so it's easy to be like nihilistic and be like well why should i even fucking try it's the same thing with like environmental impact like there's that countdown that's like the world is going to end in like five years you know well that's not like why should i care because i'm not even going to be here to suffer the consequences yeah and it's just like it's just not about you it's about the greater good i mean america has done a very good job of making everyone feel very individualistic and on their own instead of banning together as a group yeah united states

my ass i think that uh i think we'll get there i think some other crazy shit's gonna happen before we do but yeah anyways let's bring back we're only unified in like the worst parts of the world like we were unified for like two weeks during covid we were unified during 9-11 like it's just things have to get bad for people to come together which is a very sad reality but then they immediately split off again anyway moving on this researcher went on the misogyny pervading much of the incel community likely reflects their low sense of sense of mate value this means that helping incels improve their own mate value and mating prospects would have the added benefit of reducing harmful instances of misogyny which begs the question can you help someone if they don't

want to be helped because it's like a badge of honor for them to be incels well also like their perceived mate value is something they're projecting onto themselves yeah so like can you fucking go to therapy and stop projecting your own insecurities and your own self-value onto women like women aren't sitting here calculating your value they're just like waiting to make sure that you're not gonna kill them you know yeah it's truly as basic as that and it what it eventually just really comes down to is like do you like yourself and they don't I mean that's what this is saying don't like yourself other people this is my favorite quote and it applies to literally everything you cannot hate yourself into becoming somebody you love that's just

it's never going to work if you can if you are like hating your body and you force yourself to lose a ton of weight you're still not going to like yourself yeah because you didn't do the internal work yeah I was thinking about how I like I don't I don't feel cute and it's not that I think that I'm unattractive or I don't like how I look or even that I give a shit what other people think because I don't I'm like no I don't care what you think of how I look I care what I think of how I look and I don't feel like I look true to how I feel yeah you know yeah so I've been dealing with that struggle a lot lately um but I was just yeah thinking about like how do you challenge that internal sense of self yeah and feeling I mean it exudes outward so so much and

it's also like the how you feel about external and that's what this also says actually like I think it also comes down to like a fear of being seen yeah because if you are putting yourself out there and you're like yeah this is who i am and i like that about i like who i am you know yeah you're opening yourself up to all of these other miserable fucking people who are gonna be like well i don't like who you are because of i just don't and when you have that fragile sense of self it's like it takes like a light breeze to knock you into the next zip code like it really it takes vulnerability to be seen because you're subjecting yourself to yeah criticism and you have to get to a point where it just like doesn't really affect you especially as a man yeah like

you know this inherent idea of what masculinity is and isn't yeah and like what yeah and what your value is placed on which is interesting because like hating women but also putting all of your value on whether or not they want you is such a strange like cognitive dissonance it's like which one is it do you do you hate them or do you do you can do you hate them and you need them is that what it is because that doesn't make any sense i think women just end up being the punching bag of like men hurting other men yeah which really fucking sucks like you only value what women think of you because men other men value that about you and this is what we mean when we say patriarchy hurts everybody yeah because i don't want other people like existing like this yeah like i just

i just don't think that people deserve to feel that way about themselves no totally doesn't mean i like you know feel bad for them i guess i don't know but it's complicated it is it's it's like you're saying the explanation doesn't excuse it you can still like feel empathy well it's their choice to go one of two ways I did see a man on TikTok a few months ago explaining how he kind of got sucked into the manosphere and it made him very pessimistic about his dating life and feeling a lot of pessimism towards women and he became aware of this of like the content I have been consuming makes me like hate women and I think that women get sucked into the exact opposite end of that absolutely here's all this bullshit I've had to deal with with men and it's hard to

not get amped up and angry about it because you're like that's not fucking fair and I've experienced that too yeah but even if you have experienced it it doesn't mean like every man you encounter is going to be like that but if you're continuing to like take in content that is emphasizing that it emboldens you uh-huh which is the whole issue with this incel community they embolden each other they're seeing all of this shit about like just all of these people that agree with them on this one thing and getting all of this evidence because everyone's sharing these videos and posts with each other and talking shit about women and like it just emboldens them and pulls them deeper and deeper into this echo chamber it's an issue across the board like it's not just the incel

community it's interesting how like you know everything we've talked about is kind of um connected yeah in this episode like it really is just like you know the 24-hour news cycle and this inability to like yeah a dopamine addiction yeah and an inability to kind of just like have any nuance about anything except for yourself yeah it's just it truly this is an interesting patriarchal capitalism an interesting paragraph um rip bell hooks you would have loved the holy hour she truly would have this one's for you she would have she would have been like yeah they're saying what i'm saying but also they're two white girls so yeah true they're just regurgitating they're just regurgitating word it's true it's just a live read of my book um

i am gonna continue to um keep men in my um thoughts and prayers i'm gonna continue to keep men in my thoughts and prayers no but in in um my fight against patriarchy absolutely yeah um you can't do it without me i'm fighting for them too yeah um interesting piece of this article the comparative comparatively high level of self-identified internal and external reasons for singlehood voiced by incels is consistent with the self-hatred and frustration towards society that can be seen on the forums girl this is what we've been saying i know such reasons may encapsulate a myriad of cognitive distortions which are important targets for therapy and other interventions um there are some implications that that this article hits on of being important

but i i disagree with them um i mean i agree with them but i think that there are wider implications i want to know and i can take it out the first is that popular media portrayals of incels are likely unfair and do not fully capture the incel mindset which is fine but it's not unfair it's just a small piece of it yeah and if you're the victim of incel rage it's not fair yeah and this is a man who's doing this research yep um it's like okay yeah you can feel empathy for this man because you are a man in patriarchy but that is not the experience that women have yeah yep amen violence against women um what i found this is a quote what i found interesting was the limited importance in cells indeed all men in this study felt traits such as loyalty and kindness were to

potential partners these traits to some degree are within one's ability to control or at least outwardly project the finding highlights the gap in understanding men and women sometimes experience with one another which can make the dating scene fraught which was an important bow i guess at the on on the end of this fraught is a great word to describe how the dating scene seems absolutely currently and when you lack the ability to think outside of what you're just being shown to like that will make you feel like militarized about it yeah now i'm just like well how can we get to the root of that and change it but ultimately you can't make someone change no you have to want to yeah i mean the thing that said that they can help that can help them change

is like going to like cognitive behavioral therapy yeah but you can't force these people into therapy and a lot of these people like therapy is something that is especially not acceptable amongst men and masculinity a lot of these men too don't have like familial support and they're kind of like operating alone even if they do have familial support they're yeah i mean how much of this is rooted in you know their childhood trauma yeah totally family trauma or they're like caused by their parents even if their parents are there for them they're probably not letting them in to like these conversations too like they probably aren't being very clear about any of this so either their parents are like really forcing them to be in therapy and

it's making them not want to be or they just haven't been modeled that as an option regardless they're not going to get the help that they need unless they want to be helped which is a sad reality because this is like more of a problem than just these boys hating themselves you know wow what a what a deep dive on incels yeah no kidding our our listeners are gonna be like i thought this was supposed to be a fucking funny podcast why am i crying at the end of all of these episodes what happened to these bitches talking about their sex lives well that's another great segue into my last talking tits oh there's two i didn't realize there are there are two there are sometimes there's more sometimes there's one a unit a unit it um this one is they did a study

on what um could improve the sex lives of couples that is not sex related what would you guess that it is interesting quality time you know in a sense traveling oh yeah they found that couples that travel together to like around two times a year have more they report more happiness in their relationship and um they report having more sex even after the trip not just like on the trip it's like a long lasting effect i thought that was very interesting is there any like data on like how far from home you need to be no it was like even if it said in the article like even if you go like hiking like it counts as like a trip i think it's the sense of adventure yeah and just kind of changing up your surroundings yeah we need that as people totally i i think that's also why

people are so addicted to like the input on their phones is because we're bored yeah you know yes and then when you're used to like this constant dopamine hit you're gonna be bored more yes yep and faster but that i think that i think traveling together is also a good way to find out if you should be in a relationship absolutely if you don't travel well together yeah and not in like normal frustration ways of like little like tiffs here and there but it really does show you some stuff about your significant other when you travel you learn a lot yeah you learn a lot when you move in together too you really do i'm miserable he's not listening those are such good little nuggets of insight thank you i'm glad that you feel that way i do well and i i've also kept

mentioning um like the dopamine addiction because i think i'm gonna do uh a purge um a dopamine detox oh of uh well since I have to be on social media for my job I'm thinking what if I'm only on social media while I'm at work and the rest of the time I'm not looking at it yeah and I know that'll be challenging today I like set a 10 minute timer where I did nothing fuck yeah and it is surprising how many times you're like oh I wish I could look at my phone about this random thought I had so I could look it up you know I mean we're so used to it it's so automatic yeah it's like oh i'm i want to know more about this little thing that i just thought of let me look it up right away isn't it wild to think about people used to have to like go to the library

and look in like an encyclopedia they would have to like get like the g book to like learn about giraffes my crazy um my mom was a librarian which when i think about it too like her becoming a librarian before we had so much quick access to just like looking what looking up whatever um she would straight up go to the library to research whatever like uh my aunt had a lot of um stomach issues and she was trying to figure it out figure out what it was and my mom uh was learned about kombucha and then she made scoby like at home she'd like get a book from the library and like do all this research herself that sounds miserable and also so peaceful i mean it's absolutely where i get my curiosity of like well i need an answer to this yeah that's

so true i can't just be like i guess we'll never know yeah i need an answer yeah and you like deep dive you like figure out an answer i like if i need an answer to something i google it and i'm like there it is and then i just like don't think about it again i guess that first one is the answer yeah it's at the top so it must be true thank god for google's generative ai because their search system fucking blows that's so real apparently bing's is better their generative ai search that's the that's the word on the street you heard it here first folks this episode is sponsored by bing just kidding they don't sponsor anything i'm surprised they're still alive oh what the fuck is the dewey decimal system see i don't know i never understood

did your mom ever try to explain it to you as a librarian yes i know i understood what it was for a brief amount of time and i simply do not now i feel like an idiot for saying this because i literally have no idea what the fuck it is but i feel like it's needlessly confusing it could be you know what i'm gonna talk to my mom sometime this week right now it's too late to call her who the fuck is dewey i'm gonna ask her ask her who i think dewey stands for something d-e-w-y oh i thought it was a person i thought it was his decimal system i mean together we might be able to come up with an actual we could look it up let's do it you know before my phone detox let's let's look it up right now

what is the do d-e-w-e-y i'm pretty sure it's a human the dewey decimal system is a classification system that uses numbers and letters to organize books by subject it was created in 1876 by melville dewey so you're right and is the most widely used classification system in the world still interesting i mean it's existed we still have libraries it's existed for longer than like the internet has and at least like how long the internet's capabilities are now like how they exist now that's so true because this development is fairly new yeah that's scary everything's improving at astronomical speed the first number of a dewey decimal call number indicates the

general class the call number falls within second or third number indicates a specific division and section for example three three nine eight point two represents fiction and fairy tales while eight one three point five four is the special dewey decimal number for fiction that's kind of cute well and when i think about it too this just reminds me of when i worked at abercrombie and um they have like the skew on the tag so it's like three numbers three numbers and three numbers and it's like indicating the department um the style and the color and i got to a point where i could straight up look at a tag and be like oh yeah that's outerwear and it's gonna be in pink fuck yeah and then i'd be able to find it very easily in the back it's the lizzie decimal

system no i didn't come up with it but but you memorized like it makes sense once you um once you know what it means yeah so hell yeah good for you fucking dewey and i mean before you can just like look up some shit it makes sense that this is gonna be the way that you can navigate how to find books everywhere yeah you know hell yeah this is the most standardized system i'm so glad that we dove into the dewey decimal system yeah now you guys you guys learned so much today honestly we might as well call it quits I'm just yeah this is the last episode it's our final one no I think if and when we have a final episode we'll definitely be going out with the bang oh yeah absolutely it'll be post tour probably yeah and you know what I'm gonna bring

back the comedy I'm gonna bring back funny Liz I think funny Liz is still around funny Liz is just a drier version of funny Liz you know what I mean it kind of sucks I miss like being very silly oh yeah well i think i'm less funny i don't i strongly disagree but that makes me sad that you feel that way yeah it's me i think it's because i don't see people as often that's fair that's fair and that's why i am so weird on calls at work see that's it's the direct opposite of me i don't see very many people and so i'm fucking insufferable when i do i'm just so lonely all day poor frank he walks upstairs doing little bits for people you know right well it's doing a bit you know it's just you and mr liz i love that and polly and polly who has fallen asleep in this very

precarious position all right sing us out amelia oh i forgot we for us to do it in different styles fuck we didn't do our hat pop style well that one was soul oh you're right that one was white white soul we'll remember it next time yeah okay i i just really want to come up with a country version fuck yeah we love you yeah they got two two for one Oh, yeah.