The Home Service Expert Podcast - Doing Whatever You Want, Is Keeping Your Business Small (Here's Why) | Mark C Winters

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

🚀 FREEDOM 2026 Get your Tickets Today! https://freedomevent.com Tommy sits down with Mark C. Winters, co-author of Rocket Fuel and author of the new book Visionary, to name the seat most founders never see: the integrator. They get into why four visionaries exist for every one integrator, why founders who sell rarely last a year, the 2017 hire that set Tommy free, and the one question every owner should answer before they ever think about selling. Get Mark's book Visionary ⟶ https://visionarybook.com Follow Mark C. Winters ⟶ https://markcwinters.com -- 🕐 TIMESTAMPS 🕐 -- 00:00 - Introduction 00:43 - Mark's Origin Story 04:11 - Predictable Visionary Patterns 06:55 - Small Shops To $400M 08:20 - Is "Founder" A Risk? 09:40 - Why Founders Leave After The Sale 12:18 - Who Becomes The Integrator 16:10 - What Getting Stuck Looks Like 20:11 - Five Abilities To Break Ceilings 23:50 - Can Your Spouse Be The Integrator? 27:58 - The Seat Founders Can't See 31:15 - The Thankless Number Two 34:09 - The Three-Piece Puzzle 39:33 - The First Sign It's Failing 42:38 - Four Visionaries, One Integrator 43:34 - The Bottleneck At The Top 46:57 - The Ski Resort CEO 49:00 - How To Find Your Integrator 51:09 - The Hard Truth 55:01 - The One System To Install Now 1:02:40 - Would You Give It All Back? 1:08:48 - Where To Find Mark 🚀 FREEDOM 2026 Get your Tickets Today! https://freedomevent.com Check Out My Social Media: Tiktok ⟶ https://www.tiktok.com/@officialtommymello Instagram ⟶ https://www.instagram.com/officialtommymello/ Facebook ⟶ https://www.facebook.com/thomasmello/

Unfortunately, sometimes our characteristics and our personality are tied to business. And you wake up one day and you say, okay, I mean for a guy like me, okay, you get to go golfing every day and fishing. That's good for about two weeks. I talked to a guy that said, I'd rather give back to $3 billion to have my business back. I was in Colorado with my wife and we were hiking. And we were having the conversation of would you rather be rich or would you rather be king? On that day, for whatever reason, when she asked me the question, my answer was,

It depends. It depends on which one of those is going to give me more of the freedom that I want. Today I got Mark Winters with me. When I read his book, it changed my life. Rocket Fuel and most recently The Visionary, that's what we're going to be talking about. He's the co-founder of Rocket Fuel Ventures. He's a seasoned entrepreneur, advisor, best-selling author of the books Rocket Fuel and Visionary, with over 25 years of experience working at global enterprises like Procter & Gamble and BP.

Mark specializes in identifying patterns. that drive business success. Mark, it's a pleasure to have you on today, brother. Nice to see you, Tommy. So this will be our second podcast. Let's just talk a little bit about your origin story where you're at today. What's you really looking forward to in the future? Yeah, so my origin story starts in big corporate, right?

So back with Procter & Gamble and kind of doing the traditional corporate thing, I thought that was the company I was going to be with for the rest of my life. and then end up catching the entrepreneurial bug while I was away in business school. And that sort of changed everything. You know, I thought, man, this sounds a lot more interesting than what I'm doing every day. And so I made the leap, burned my boats, if you will. And that led to a series of ventures. I'm up to 15 different companies now that I've either started myself, bought from somebody else,

you know, shut down, put out a business, or sold off, you know, for some kind of a win. in all different kinds of industries and along the way just sort of fell in love with what it means to be an entrepreneur and the science that makes it work and the challenges that show up for all of us along the way and started moving into more of an advisory mode. Gosh, that's been almost 15 years ago now when I sort of made that shift and did a lot of peer group work with CEO peer groups, started a bunch of here in Dallas. I'm in Dallas for work. And that's how I met a fellow named Gino Wickman. who wrote the book traction and created the entrepreneurial operating system. And Gino and I became fast friends, had some history in common, knew some of the same people. And that led to he and I writing the book Rocket Fuel together,

where we really unpacked the visionary integrator structure and a set of five rules and five tools really to make that thing work and make it powerful. And then most recently now, I've really turned my focus to the visionary in particular and diving deep on, on, what it looks like, what it takes for a visionary to be truly great if they really want to excel in that in that role. So that's where we are. That's where we are now.

I had, this is so funny. This was like this past week. So today's Tuesday. So it was probably last Wednesday or Thursday. I had a fellow reach out and I get probably 20 or 30 messages a day. And this guy had said, do you still believe in the visionary integrator? I don't know. I'm like 110% like that is my life. Like I am like the epitome of what you wrote in the book. Like I'm Walt. Roy keeps track of everything else. He knows what's going on with the construction of Walt Disney.

He understands what's happening in the background, making sure all the contractors are paid. But Walt's, he saw Disney world way before it was. He was flying over Orlando looking down at a bunch of, you know, wetlands. And he saw it. And it's really hard to explain until you live it because it almost feels like I was telling you earlier. Like it almost feels like sometimes I should be running the project and I should be in the weeds. But then I realize every time I do that, it doesn't help the business. Yeah.

And it's not that you can't do it, right? So you've had to learn how to do all that stuff as you've kind of come along a lot of times just out of a sheer place of how to survive, right? So it's not that you can't do it. It's just that if you spend all your time and energy doing stuff like, that, you don't get to spend it, you know, flying over the wetlands and seeing the vision of what, you know, Walt Disney World could be, right? And so that's what it's all about is finding out where that sweet spot is for you and then building a structure that lets you focus there and do the things that, frankly, only you can do. We're going to dive into a lot of this stuff on the

visionary side. You said that most entrepreneurial struggles are predictable that can be easily mitigated with the right skills. Can you dive into that? Yeah, so visionary patterns are very predictable. I mean, you're living and it resonates strongly with you because you are one. But even if someone is not one, they have all seen one, worked with one, worked for one, been a partner with one, you name it. And so the same patterns pop up over and over again where it's this, it's not necessary in inability, but it's a resistance to,

focus on the details and to focus on the follow-through and to be able to kind of stay locked in on something for an extended period of time. That's just not how how visionaries are wired, right? Visionaries are wired to be thinking about the future. I call it seeing the future, looking out down the road and going, all right, this is where things are headed. We can kind of see that. So if that's where things are headed, what's the best place for us to position this thing along that track to take full advantage of the opportunities that are going to come with it. And then along with that comes all the ideation, all the possibilities, the different things that we could try to do or we could tap into that are going to make this thing go, make this

thing pop. So it's that stuff. It's solving the big interesting problems. It's big relationships, usually big external relationships, whether that's in the community, the industry trade group, you know, some key vendor, some key customer, you know, but the big external relationships, visionaries are great at that, they're energized for that. And then they're also sometimes sort of, I call it the big gun that you bring in at the end to maybe close the big deal. That's the stuff that they're naturally wired for. And that's easy for them.

That's fun for them. They're going to stay focused and locked in on that. But all this other stuff, that's just the day-to-day minutia, the detailed things that have to happen if we're going to make this thing a machine, they're just not wired for that. So, The same patterns show up. You know, people don't get developed. We hop from one thing to another. The organization feels this thing we call whiplash where, you know, the visionary looks over here.

Everybody starts looking that direction and about the time all eyes are looking that direction. The visionary is looking back over here. And then half of them are turned this way, half of them are turned that way. And then the visionary turns their head back again. And we just kind of get this back and forth thing that goes on that it causes a lot of, a lot of unnecessary friction and really leakage of energy throughout the rest of the organization. And you're talking this isn't just a lot of the listeners might be mom and pops, 20, 30, 40 people,

under 10 million. There's also bigger companies. You know, this year we're pacing to do north of 400 million. But you're talking to these big companies, same deal, like the massive, massive companies. Yeah. So the way that that we see it, Tommy, is, It's all of those big companies started as small companies. Yep. And so when we go deep in the history and we talk about Walt Disney, we talk about McDonald's, we talk about, you know, standard oil or Honda, right? We look at the history and the roots of the patterns that happened there and they had

this visionary integrator combo. They had this visionary that was kind of the wild and crazy idea person. And then they had the integrator that was the execution and follow through and get it done, focused person. So the visionary makes it up. the integrator makes it real. And so we see that as they climb the entrepreneurial arc. And so if you look around in some big companies today, you know, you look at like Elon Musk and Gwen Shotwell, for example, right?

So that looks like a visionary integrator combination. And so you can see it in big companies if they're truly entrepreneurial. If they truly have that kind of leader combination at the helm, the pattern even exists there. You know, that's a really funny word, entrepreneurial. And so many people, when we went through our first deal, they said, you're very entrepreneurial. You're a founder. And I said, is that a bad thing? And they said, it just really depends because we don't know if we could tame the beast.

Can you work well with private equity? Do you like to call the shots or do you like to listen in and make key? cumulative decisions. And now I'm three and a half years through and they're like, wow, you do work well because I like to bounce ideas off and really sit in a forum. And if I feel strongly, I'll throw out my card and I'll say, no, no, no, this is what we need to do. I know this business. But that sometimes I think people are like, they almost look down upon entrepreneurial businesses. But I think private equity and some larger companies now are starting to realize that you need that. You need that entrepreneurial spirit to run freely within the business. Or some

of the magic dies. Yeah, so I see it. Some people see it that way. I think it depends on who you're working with, right? So some people don't. Some people see it as a risk, and that's kind of, I think, what you certainly heard in the past is the founder is a risk factor to be mitigated. Right? Because they think, one, you know, you're crazy. They're not sure how to manage you. They're not sure how to deal with you. Two, there's a pretty good history of founders that have, done some kind of a deal for an acquisition or something that had, you know, had a contract to stay. And, you know, you talk to most of these folks and it's like, well, how long did you make it? And, you know, on a three-year deal, I think the average is probably less than a year, right?

Because one of the sides get sideways with the other. So in one sense, the visionary integrator structure is a great way to mitigate that risk because, you know, Neither party wants to be trapped. The investor, the buyer, the acquire, whatever you want to call it, they don't want to be stuck with somebody that they're not sure how to deal with if it doesn't end up being a healthy relationship. And two, the founder of the entrepreneur, they don't want to be stuck in a deal that sucks, right? That's no fun where they can't do the stuff that they have been doing the whole time. And now they're in, you know, a job where, you know, they're not calling the shots. they're not able to kind of run the show.

And so I've had private equity people in the room that say, you know, the integrator, when it's strong, it solves that problem for us because it's sort of, you know, it's the connection. It's the solid, predictable piece of the puzzle that gives us some certainty to where we don't have to be concerned about the risk of the founder, if they're bringing them into a bigger organization. But now you're starting to see some people that's kind of like what you describe, where they want that energy.

They want that future, that visionary, creative energy in the mix because of what they're trying to do in a certain space. You know, if that's something that they're trying to grow and expand in a different way, if you take that voice out of the mix, you've lost something. You said you've lost the magic. I think that's absolutely true. So it really depends on which way they're coming from it. Are they trying to minimize risk or they're going to plug it into something that's sort of stable?

Or are they really trying to do something unique? and let's get a bunch of, you know, crazy people in a room and come up with something that no one has ever thought about before. I think you do a little bit of both. You need to minimize your downside, but you also need to think, like, if you talk to most founders slash entrepreneurs and you say, we're looking for a two and a half X over the next five years, that's pretty boring. That's like that we just keep doing what we're doing. No innovation, no testing, no thinking outside of the box. But at the same time, let's not stop what we're doing great.

let's allow us to test, put some guardrails around it. But we've built it this far because when the founder leaves a lot of these businesses, especially private equity backed, you watch them kind of deteriorate. A lot of the other people leave. They're the glue. And the integrator is super important. I think the integrator, usually the CFO, probably the CFO, depending on how the business is run and what type of business you're in.

If you're in a SaaS product or potentially, you know, something to do more with processing fees and other things like FinTech might be the CFO. But I think there's a, the COO is really the guy doing a lot of the work to make the operational site happen. Is that usually who the number two? I guess it depends on the business. Who do you normally see as the integrator? Yeah.

So I see it come through all of those paths. It depends, you know, a little bit on the industry and kind of what the selection set looks like at the leadership team level. But, you know, the finance path is, is an obvious one. because they've got, you know, detail orientation. The ops path is another one because they're created execution. And so they, you know, they sort of bring all that. It's less often that we see somebody that comes up through kind of the sales

and marketing function, but I've seen it, right? It happens. So I think it totally is dependent on the space and the particular business and the team that's already in place. You know, one of the interesting things about the integrator role, question I'll get a lot, Tommy, is, well, do they need to have deep experience in my space, in my vertical? What do you think? Do you know the answer to that question? I would say no. Why would you say no? Because they're good at tasks, they're good at seeing things through.

I would say that a great integrator could go almost anywhere because they know how to manage a team to get to the finish line, but that's my point of view. Yeah. I think, that's that's right that's what I see in my experience is it's a you know in some sense it's just another function like a financial function would be where we're kind of managing widgets in some form or fashion but the caveat is you got to have deep vertical experience somewhere on that leadership team right so whether the visionary has it or some you know the sales and marketing person has whoever it's got to be there somewhere but if you've got it right if the rest of leadership team is super strong and they've been in this business for a long long time then they've got

that. The integrator doesn't need that. And you can find somebody who is a, you know, a rock star at the function of integrating and bring them in and plug them right in. You're going to do fine. Hey guys, I got some big news. Donald Trump Jr. is coming back to Freedom 2026. He spent his career and said one of the biggest family businesses in this country. And just like Eric Trump, he's sitting down with me for a fireside chat so we can really get into where he sees things heading for owners like us. Right now, we're taking questions for Freedom 2020s ticket holders for a chance to have them read to Eric and Don Jr. live on stage during the event. It's the opportunity of a lifetime to hear practical answers of how operators like us need to be approaching our businesses in

27. One more thing before I let you go. Since it's Labor Day week, we just launched group packages for Freedom 20206 so you could bring your GM, your lead tech, your whole crew, and save a buck while doing it. This one's live today, September 3rd through Wednesday the 9th only. Freedom 2026 is October 26 through the 28th at Manilae Bay. I'm telling you guys, I put so much time and effort into my presentation. I'm going to blow your socks off. Go to freedom event.com, grab your seat today, check out the group packages, and get your question in.

Or you could call us or text us at 602-581-7563. Can't wait to see you guys there. How do you feel about who is it? Sir, what's his name, Virgin? Richard Branson. He says, I go out and I find the CEO of companies and make him the CEO of my new companies. And that's how he starts businesses. Basically going out and getting an integrator and saying now you're the entrepreneur.

Does that valid or is that something? What is your take on that? Well, so I haven't taken a deep dive into his stuff lately. to kind of see what he's going on and how he's approaching that. But conceptually, if I think about what I see other visionaries doing that are involved in a lot of different businesses, sort of the new model that's starting to show up more and more is you've got a visionary that has a lot of disconnected businesses.

So they're not necessarily intertwined or necessarily even synergistic. And they have effectively an integrator that runs each business And so they're the visionary sitting up here, and they've got integrators of all these different full business units, which are fully operating companies in a lot of cases. And they're providing the visionary energy, if you will, at an even higher level than the person who's sitting in that operating seat. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. I see exactly what you're talking about. It makes a lot of sense.

You talk about the concept of getting stuck as an entrepreneur, and I can't tell you how many calls I get on where people are like, I don't. know where to start. What does getting stuck look like for most people? Yeah. So let me start talking about it from the place of somebody who has the entrepreneurial seizure and makes the leap. Right. So we've all been there. We all can relate to that at some point. So you're like, all I'm going to do something. I see this need that needs to be filled, that something I resonate with for some reason. If I get in there and I do this well, I'm going to make more money. I'm going to have great flexibility of time.

I'm going to really love the people I work with. I'm going to be able to make a big impact, you know, just all the good stuff. I'm really going to enjoy what I'm doing, right? So they make the leap. They start the business, they buy the business, whatever, they jump into this thing. Then you fast forward about 12 to 18 months and we, you know, fly in. We take our cameras and go take a look at what's going on in their world and what do we find. Well, they're probably working harder and longer than they ever have in their life.

They're probably not making much money. If you were to convert it back to an hourly wage, it's probably the lowest pay rate they've ever experienced in their whole life. They're stuck with some people that they can't get rid of that they hate, that drive them absolutely crazy. They're having to take customers that they don't like because they're just trying to survive and trying to hang on. And this thing is doing none of those things that they wanted to do when they started it.

Right? seen that lived it maybe right and so that's a that's the original form of entrepreneurial stuckness is that and so for those people hopefully we can get them out of that right we can through systems and structure we can get them to climb out the other side and they can they can actually go on to experience those things that we talk about but along that path along that journey it's going to happen again you're going to have some version of the people thing isn't working I can't figure out what to do next There's there's so much spinning around. I just can't stay focused on one thing.

And so we have all these half built bridges that are laying around. And that's what stuck looks like is when you're in a place like that, that's not the place that you want to be and you can't figure out how to make the next move to get you out of there and onto this next place closer to where you ultimately want to go. And have you ever been stuck? I've been stuck many times. And how did you get on? I was that guy in one of my first entrepreneurial ventures where, you know, I went out and raised the money and, you know, made all the commitments that, that you make and, you know, got it, got into it deep and got off and running and, you know, was working my tail off. And, you know, we're basically around the clock for, for days and nights on end. And, you know, what was it all adding up to? Not much. And, you know, you just feel.

all of that pressure and you feel the pressure from the family side of things where, you know, the wife's like, you know, are you kidding me? We're going to put more into this thing and we're going to, you know, we're going to ride it out farther and longer. And, you know, the people, some of them are great. Some of them are an absolute nightmare and having to navigate through all of that stuff and pull it out the other side. I mean, it's, you go through long, dark nights of the soul. And then I get to see that experience. that again and again through the clients that I work with where yeah, it just it just it keeps coming back, you know, it's never as bad as that first one though, hopefully, right? If you've got something

that makes it and you don't have something catastrophic, those long dark nights of the soul are a little less, it's a little less of a deep hole. And the period that you're in it isn't as long. And so you learn how to break through those, you break through those ceilings. You know, in, in EOS, we teach, five leadership abilities and there's you're talking about hitting the ceiling of complexity where if you have something that works at a certain level if you grow as you grow the complexity increases and the stuff that used to work for you at a certain level doesn't work for you at the next level and so you're going to hit those ceilings and you can encounter a ceiling like that at a company level you can hit a ceiling

like that at a department level one of the functions within your company or you can hit it as an individual right you know you maybe you used to be able to handle that, but now you're stuck as an individual, right? And so those ceilings are there and you break through one and keep going down the road and there's going to be another one in the future. And so it's leadership abilities like being able to simplify things, right? The organization creates tons of complexity all on its own. So we have to obsess about simplification, you know, whether that means we do fewer things,

we have fewer pages in the document, we have a simpler model, we use fewer syllables in the word, you know, whatever it is, anywhere and everywhere. It's like, all right, how can we make that more simple, more simple, more simple, and drive that into the organization. We've got to become good delegators. If we don't delegate, we're stuck. You know, we only have this amount of capacity and, you know, everybody's hanging on to what they've got.

And if we're all sitting there hanging on to what we've got looking at each other, where we go in as a business, nowhere. We're staying right there. So we've got to break through that and be able to delegate, intelligently and effectively, and that's going to create more capacity, and that's going to allow us to grow and break through the ceiling and move forward. We have to become good predictors. Time and time again, I see people that, you know, they think a wish is a prediction. They think that what they want is a prediction, and it's not. And so they keep throwing this stuff

out, and they miss it every single time, every single year, every single quarter. And so nobody has any faith in the numbers. Nobody has any faith in what's being said and delivered. So we've got to to get good at calling our shot within the near-term window and hitting it, right? That creates confidence and that confidence is what allows us to reach for a lot more on the long-term horizon. I talk about, you know, stretching the vision side of the equation, everything more than a year out there, but predicting the traction, right? Everything that's 12 months and in, we don't stretch on that.

We need to be able to hit the numbers that we put out there. So those are three abilities, and then we systemize on top of that. So we leverage processes. And then finally, the fifth ability is to add structure. So we intentionally create structure about how the work is organized and how we create accountability, you know, between the people that are doing the work. So that leads to structures such as the visionary integrator piece of the equation.

Eliminate, automate, delegate most people also, the way that I say it is they overestimate what they could do in one year and underestimate what they could do in five. And this is exactly... That's called a Mars law. I live and breathe this stuff And I'll tell you, you know, I wish things went faster,

but the ship gets bigger, it's harder to turn. And I always want to be able to test and try. And, you know, a lot of this stuff doesn't work. It's having the ability as a visionary to walk away and say, but look, in business, you know as well as I do. You hit one home run. It could be 10,000 RBIs.

So you can strike out a bunch, but that one home run and that additional thing that you added, As long as you got a good team of leadership that understands we're going to test. And the visionary's got to understand, look, it didn't work out. It's too complicated. You know, but you got to keep going. You know, just because one bad idea, fall forward, correct, and keep going. You know, I got a question for you.

You were talking about your wife as you continue to dump more money into this idea. I'm curious. I'm like zero integrator in the book you guys wrote about how you could be both. I mean, look, I could do the work. I can. I can do the emails. I could be the one. I'll still run the meetings.

I'm still on the stages. I'm still the one doing orientation and everything else. But in a relationship, like having kids and having a family, I personally, I'm engaged, never been married before. We're going to have kids. I don't know where I'm at. I don't know what the calendar. Like, Brie will tell me this is where you need to be. This is next.

And I've got a great EA. I need help to stay organized. And I can tell you, I can go. on and on with all the faults of mine. But do you notice with a visionary that sometimes your significant other becomes more of that integrator? And I don't know if that works in a family or what's your thoughts are on that. So I think a family's about a lot more than that. So some of these structures are informative, but I wouldn't say they're prescriptive for a family relationship, if that makes any sense.

And let me try to unpack what I mean by that. I see sometimes a husband and wife that they look to me like, it's very clear. One's the visionary. One's the energy. Heck, I've had leadership teams where I've had those two on the team and their spouses. And those are the roles that they play in the company.

So I've had that. I've seen that. And I've seen that work absolutely magically. I've also see it be. a complete dumpster fire. So, you know, I think there's a lot more to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, to the, personal side of the equation than just the kind of the principles we're talking about on a leadership team.

I think on the, the, the, the personal side and, you know, congrats on on your, uh, on your relationship. My wife and I just celebrated 34 years of marriage. Congrats, man. So impressive. Thanks. I appreciate that. I'm proud of that.

And, you know, the, the stuff I would tell you about. that is, you know, it's not easy, but, but man, is it worth it? And if I was thinking about our relationship, yeah, we don't fit any kind of a visionary integrator structure. It looks nothing like that. We're very much the same on certain things, and we're absolutely 100% polar opposites on on other things. And so, you know, it may be about what you want for your family structure, you know, whether that's something that fits or applies or works for you. But then that sort of begs the question, can you be intentional about family design or do you meet your, you meet your person and it's all over and the two of you are just going to go figure it out,

right it's not it's not it's not the it's not quite the same as hiring somebody to to be on your team now you can't you can't pick your you can pick your wife and i like that most mentors i've ever experienced in books that i've read i've said that's the most important decision you'll ever make i mean literally it's like and and you know i think everybody goes into a planning on only doing it once but you know we're uh i've known her nine years now and she's absolutely everything you could ever want and some and everything I'm not in a good way. Yeah, no, it's just interesting. I just wanted to hear your concept on that.

And I know you can't just put it in, hey, you're going to be the integrator in this relationship. It's not the same as business. And there's a lot more at stake. I want to go through a lot of questions. Just really dive into the visionary type stuff here. I've got a lot of questions. And then I've got some more visionary integrator than specific.

specifically visionary. Why do so many founders fail to realize when they're missing an integrator? So I think one of the reasons is that the function isn't visible to them. Okay. So realize that the majority of the world still, even despite our best efforts of sort of spreading the word, they have never heard of this. They've never heard of the concept that there's an integrator function. I think that's the right way to think about it. So if you think about the basic functions of any business, there's some sort of a sales and marketing function that helps the world find out about us and then are the value we can offer so they come in as lead and then the sales converts them to a customer or client. Then there's an operations or service

delivery function that sort of keeps the promise that first group made. And then there's a finance and administrative function that takes care of all the bookkeeping and the infrastructure and everything to hopefully keep those first two functions laser focused on what their main job is, right? The integrator function works harmoniously through in between those functions to kind of bring it all together to execute the business plan, you know, deliver the bottom line P&L results. And the visionary function is all about seeing the future ideation, big external relationships, the things we've talked about, right? So if you think about those as five distinct functions, and however the structure gets worked out, those things all are happening in your business in some

level. What a business that isn't aware of that integrator function is going to do is they're going to have those traditional functions and they're going to have one person sitting on top of that doing everything else. And so they're effectively blending those visionary integrator functions together unknowingly, right? And so they think that's all one job. And as you sort of alluded to in Rocket Fuel, we talked about, yeah, there are people that can do both, but they're a very rare breed. So it's less than 5% of the population that is a visionary or an integrator. And keep in mind that that's only a small portion of the population that's wired to be a visionary or integrator in the first place. So of that group, it's about, you know, maybe 5% that truly can do both and be great

and want to. And most of those people who think they're like that, when I, you know, pin them down and I go, okay, you can only do one of those for the rest of their life, which do you pick? It takes them about that long to tell me, which tells me they don't really think they're both. They're doing both for some reason, but it's not really because they want to or necessarily great at it, right? So if it's invisible, you know, somebody is playing CEO and they're sitting there in that top seat and they're kind of doing all the stuff. And some things are doing really well and but things just aren't working, but it's not obvious why. So when we split those things apart and make it visible, even if the same person is sitting in both of those seats, now all of a sudden it starts to become clear to them and to the rest of the organization.

okay, wait, here's the stuff that's working well. You're doing great with this visionary stuff. You're spending all your time up there, but all this execution, follow through stuff, you're not spending any time on that, and that's where we're falling down. That's where we're getting stuck. That's the thing that, you know, that needs help.

And then they go, oh, okay, I get it now. I can see it. And that's typically when they decide to make a move. Do you think that integrators, I mean, if I think about this from just the people I know that are greater to integrating. Sometimes they're lonely. They don't necessarily get to get the awards. They don't get to kiss the babies, the big relationships.

Sometimes they wonder, maybe I'll go out and do this. What are your thoughts on just the integrator role overall as far as? Yes. So it can be a thankless job at times, right? Like you said, because for one, you're saying no, sometimes a lot. Sometimes you're saying it to the visionary. And they hate to be told no, right? And so that's, you know, nobody's patty on the back necessarily for doing that.

Firing people, having the hard conversations, you know, being anal about following up on all the details and all the follow-through stuff. You know, all that stuff is hard stuff. And again, people appreciate it, but they don't necessarily, you know, fully understand all that goes into that. Now, here's the funny thing. You think about how you're wired or how I'm wired or how any other visionary is wired. And we like that other stuff. We like that external stuff, right? We like that acknowledgement.

You know, we want to win. We want to be first. We want to stand on the highest pedestal and top of the podium, you know, whatever, right? And so that means something to us at some level. So we sort of project that on them and think they probably feel the same way. And what I see, Tommy, with the great integrators is they don't. They don't care. They're perfectly happy to let somebody else get all that, you know, that acknowledgement and recognition and whatever.

And they get their satisfaction out of doing great work and delivering things that we needed to get done. And making it happen, again, back to, you know, visionary making it up, making it real. I've had I've had integrators tell me, look, I don't have all kinds of ideas. I don't want to spend my cycles trying to come up with that stuff. If you will just feed me the next thing, I'll go do it. And that's where I get my joy. That's where I get my fulfillment. So some of that may be projected by visionaries. My bracelet says aspire to be number one right here. That's funny. I know that you've talked in the book about, outgrowing certain integrators got to raise their lid what are your thoughts I mean I have

one of the best integrators I mean both Adrian and Luke so I'm not worried personally but do you feel like there's ever a time where the visionary outgrows the integrator yeah so the way to think about that is something we call the three-piece puzzle so if you think about the visionary and the integrator you know kind of visionary over the integrator and then alongside them a third piece, which is the business. And think about those three pieces interlocking and fitting together. So what has to work is, you know, the visionary and the integrator have to fit together. So you, you hopefully when you hire them in the beginning, you check all that and you

start out with a good fit there, right? And then each of them, the visionary and the integrator have to fit together with the business. So, so the question for the visionary is, okay, great, how much, how much visionaries this business need? And a company like a space X is going to require a lot more visionary than a company that cleans carpets. Right. Okay.

If it's just one company that has one little area and one part of the market, right, the complexity that's going on there, the number of people that are going on there, the rate of change or regulation in their market for the carpet cleaning company is completely different from SpaceX, right? You feel that. So we talk about a visionary spectrum. you know, where on one end you've got a Steve Jobs and Elon Musk, and then on the other end, you just don't need as much. So how much visionary does the business need? And then likewise, there's another question for the integrator that says, okay, great. How much integrator does this business need?

Same thing. There's a spectrum there. If there's more complexity, if it's more scale, it's going to need more integrator. So all three of those pieces, once we get them all fit together, let's say we start with a good fit between all of them where they really click and fit together well, all three of those pieces are moving and changing through time, right? The business is growing and changing. Whatever's happening.

We're buying new companies. We're selling parts off. We're entering new markets. Whatever's going on. The needs are changing. And that visionary is growing and expanding. They're thinking they're getting different experiences and the same things happening with the integrator.

They're growing and expanding. And so there's going to be stress and tension that may tend to want to kind of pull these things apart at different points along the way. And so sometimes it may be true that the visionary has outgrown the integrator. It could be true that the business has outgrown the integrator or the visionary. Or sometimes the integrator is the rock star and they pass everybody and they grow out of this business and they need to go find another visionary and company to hook on to that's going to be able to take them to the next level that they're capable of going to. So all three pieces are moving and we've got to watch all those connection points all the time.

What's the biggest strengths and weaknesses of a visionary? And then we're going to do it within a grader. Yeah, so we've kind of covered those. I feel like so, you know, the visionary strengths is seeing the future, ideation, big external relationships, you know, closing big deals, solving interesting complex problems. Their weaknesses are they get distracted easily. They're not great at developing people, you know. So there was a time when I've had, you know, a dozen.

and direct reports and all kinds of people that I was managing and I thought I was pretty good at it, right? But over time, I've learned that, you know what, I'm good at managing about one person, really, really well, right? Because I watch somebody who's great at it and they can handle, you know, people and do a great job with all of them at a scale and a depth that I just couldn't do. So I had to see what great looked like. So typically visionaries aren't, that's not their forte, right? You know, they're not great with following the details. They're not great with follow through. they're distracted easily. All those kinds of things would fall on the weaknesses side, I think, for the, for the visionary. For the integrator, so their strengths are follow through, execution, attention to detail.

They're a role model for what we call leadership, management, and accountability. So they set that bar at the top of the organization for, hey, here's what it should look like, so that every manager that then reports into them, seeing that standard applied to their relationship can then apply it to their team and then it gets applied to their team at castage through the whole organization they've got to be great at that they're great at communication and keeping everybody on the same page keeping everybody aligned they're great at being able to fly at a at a not the same altitude but a close altitude to that visionary so you know the visionary's flying up here you know we can't have the integrator flying way down here by the

ground they got to be able to fly up here close enough that we can speak the same language and they can understand what's going on, that visionary brain, and then translate it to the rest of the organization in language that they can understand. If not, then it's going to be really frustrating for everybody. The integrator's weaknesses are, you know, they've got to be comfortable with being number two. They've got to be comfortable with, you know, living in a thankless world sometimes. They've got to be, you know, comfortable with being focused on execution. you know, first and foremost, they aren't necessarily great at coming up with the big ideas at being able to see a different way out of the trap, you know, a different escape path out of the,

out of the room we're stuck in. So those are things that would fall on on their challenges list. And your experience, what's the earliest sign that a visionary integrator partnership is going to fail? they have stopped working to get aligned and it's starting to look like this it's starting to they're starting to blame each other oh the blame game that's right we want that relationship to to be you know obsessively focused on staying on the same page and and so what that means is they should show up almost like two halves of the same brain, right? So we've talked it out so much that even though I might explain it differently, if someone would ask me the question, the response I would give is in the same neighborhood

as the response you would give, right? So two halves of the same brain. So if they are no longer committed to that and it's, and it's, you know, it's gotten to the point where it's kind of like, well, you and you and it's just finger pointing and blaming the other one, then that's a pretty. a pretty tough crack to overcome. Do you think an integrator could build many integrators below them as the company starts to grow? So good question.

If you think about it in the spirit of what we mean by the integrator function, then no. But the pattern shows up, if that makes sense. So the integrator has to be able to deal with a visionary. and they've got to be able to manage and lead a true leadership team of a business. So that's a pretty high-level skill set, right? But if you look in the departments, a lot of times you'll have a leader that has visionary tendencies or has integrator tendencies, and sometimes a combination in there can be a good thing. But it's different.

It's like a mini version of the pattern that we're talking about applied in a different way. I've seen it show up in sales teams where you get a sales leader that's really good and they are more visionary in their wiring. And you get an integrator in there that's almost like a chief of staff. That's kind of the model I've seen it in where they sort of handle all the administrative stuff that has to happen. and they make sure that that machine stuff works, you know, just very, very smoothly and predictably. And it frees that sales leader to really spend time on the human side of things and how people are aligned, how they're skilled, how they're motivated and driving towards whatever the goal is. So I don't know if that's answering your question or not. I see.

I really love that example. It makes a lot of sense in a sales department. is the micro and macro person involved. Are there more visionaries or integrators in the world? So there are more visionaries, and the ratio is about four visionaries for every one integrator. But keep in mind, back to our three-piece puzzle, this one integrator is not necessarily a good fit for all four of these integrators.

In fact, there may only be a fit for one of these integrators. So it gets to be a pretty challenging math problem pretty quick. And so the advice I've always given visionaries who, you know, connect with this. The structure resonates with them is don't wait, get to work. Go find your integrator because at some point, you know, some people, some visionary entrepreneurs are going to get left in the musical chairs game without an integrated chair to grab. Why do most successful entrepreneurs become the bottleneck eventually of their business? So I saw a quote from Peter Drucker the other day that somebody put out that I thought was funny,

but he says, you know, the bottleneck always appears at the top of the bottle. Yeah. And I think it's true for our organization, right? You know, the bottleneck is there. So, you know, the way I think about it is as the visionary goes, so goes the visionary integrator relationship. As that visionary integrator relationship goes, so goes the rest of the leadership team. And as that leadership team goes, so goes the entire organization. And so I really think it has that kind of a cast-aid effect.

And so what's happening is you've got a visionary who, with good intentions, and a lot of times out of old habits and just inertia from the way it's always been done, they're grabbing things, they're holding on to things, they're not letting go. They're not being honest with themselves about the current reality that's that's going on around them or with them. And that's why. So it starts there. So we can get the visionary to get clear themselves. You know, that clarity allows them to begin to focus on the right things.

And it sort of begins to unlock all of that chain reaction. I think it's been a lot easier for me to let go. I do miss certain things. Some days I miss being out in the truck. but ultimately the fact is I just know there's better people at better things. I've even said if there's a person that could come around this business better, but I don't think there's a visionary that could just step in to this last 20 years of business. And, you know, I'm willing to get advice and get consulting and work on myself a lot.

But also, like, I got a clear vision of what it's going to take to 10-X's business again. And eventually it needs to become more corporatized, and I hate that work. because I don't like the word corporate, but it's structure. It has a, there's a, what it means to be corporate to me is just we show up, we do the job, and we get a certain output. We've hit our budget within 1% the last four years. And I give that a lot of props to the team. I mean, it wouldn't been that way if I was running the whole thing, every decision.

So I think for me is like giving more things up. And I think it's sometimes hard for a lot of people like, man, what exactly does he? but I spend all night whiteboarding every night. And I'm in front of the KPIs and I'm working like, and not all my ideas are good. And I will say the couple guys I talked about, they're very good at saying to me, if that's important to you,

which one of these do you want us to remove that were important to you before? Because we can't focus on 30 things. We can't focus on more than five at any given moment. Yep. That's a great question. And in fact, it leads me to the, you know, we talk about the interoperable. very saying no a lot, but there's a lot of power in the response being, well, yes, if.

Yeah. And yes, if we let go of that. Yes, if we're able to go do this other thing, right? And so it brings that reality focus back in. There's a couple of things you said there, Tommy. So one, you know, if you want to go riding a truck, you should go riding a truck. And that's fine as the visionary to go and spend time in the field doing things, being around things, keeping your finger on the pulse of what's.

going on. I'll tell you a quick story. So we were skiing in Utah about a month ago. And my son and I are waiting to meet some people at the lift. And this guy walks up to us in a resort jacket. And he's like, hey, we're from. We're from Texas. You're just meeting some buddies. He says, oh, we talk for a little bit. And he goes, hey, you want to go up early? Yeah, let's go. He says, all right, just you too. Let's go. And so he took us down. We hop on the lift and we're riding up. And the conversation as we're going up is, so what are you, you ski patrol, you ski instructors, you're day off. you know, what are you doing? He goes, no, I'm the, I'm the CEO and general manager of the resort. This is just how I get first hand contact with what's really going on and how satisfied our customers are.

And it was great. And I thought, what a great example, right? I mean, he's out there, you know, getting his feedback. It's not any, any, he's not, you know, jumping down in and making decisions and given direction and kind of changing things where he's doing what we call an end run, where he's stepping around the, the, the structure of. of the organization, but it doesn't mean he's not out there. It doesn't mean he's not, you know, getting the information and sharing the information that he needs to to make this thing work. So that's an opportunity for any visionary. When you use the word corporatize, when I think about that along with the words, really structure and process, structure is what's going to ultimately free you. If you don't want structure, you're going to be stuck for a long time, right?

So structure is your friend. And so get comfortable with that. And don't equate that to corporatize. When I hear corporate ties, and I think about a lot of mindset stuff, you know, a lot of things that go back to the culture that make it not entrepreneurial. It's bureaucracy.

You know, corporate ties systems are not, frankly, accountability sucks in corporate structures. In entrepreneurial structures, you can make it great. And it's fun and, you know, it makes a difference and you feel good about it. So all those opportunities are right there. You know, the question I probably get the most, and I've talked a lot, a lot, a lot about your books,

is how do I find a good integrator? Is where do I go? Can I go on Indeed or Glassdoor, a zip recruiter or, you know, any of these? What's the best way to find that? So it's funny that you ask. So with the book Rocket Fuel, you know, we wrote it specifically for the visionary. And Gino and I are like, all right, we got a, they've got the attention span of a nat.

So how do we keep this thing short and sweet? So we write the first chapter about them. Visionaries read the first chapter and they go, yep, that's me. These guys have been following me around. They know all about me. And then they read the second chapter and it talks about the integrator. And they go, you know what? That actually makes sense.

And then they go, I want one. And then that's when it gets hard. And so the last time you and I talked, you know, it was pretty early on in that book. And so the short answer is you still. got to do all the same recruiting stuff you've got to do to find somebody who's a who's a great leader as a candidate the good news is since then lots of recruiting firms have actually started to specialize in this niche and so there are recruiting firms out there now that they specialize in finding integrators

and they've gotten really really good at it and i look at linkedin and people use integrator in their tagline and their job titles you've got people that are actively using that language. You've got a lot of people that are, when they're posting jobs, they're specifically posting it for an integrator. And so we've got a sort of a model job description for what that looks like that somebody could start with. But that's gotten a lot easier.

But it comes back to for the visionary, first you've got to get really clear on who you are and what you want, what the business needs. So back to the three piece puzzle. There's a process in the book that kind of talks through that. And then once you're clear on that, it's all right, put the word out. Put the word out to your network. You know, make it public, hire a recruiter that can help you if you want that kind of help.

And start having the conversations. What's the hard truth about visionaries that most people don't want to accept? Which people? I say that which people don't want to accept. A lot of the people listening are business owners. I'd love for more. Yeah. So then I think, so here's here's the hard truth.

Actually, I think we talked a little bit about it. I think it's that structure fuels freedom. Yep. That's the hard truth. Is structure fuels freedom? And actually, what you want, that freedom that you want, all your spastic efforts to kind of do whatever you want and protect your ability to just kind of run unstructured is the thing that's taking the most freedom away from you. And so spending that time to kind of focus in and go, okay, here's. Here's how we're going to build this thing intentionally.

And in a way that then we can begin to plug other people into this thing. So I'm not doing it all myself. That's the thing that's ultimately going to give you that freedom that you want. For me, that happened in 2017. I heard a guy really knew a lot about home services. And he goes, show me your manuals, your standard operating procedure. Show me your org chart plan. None of that existed.

Show me what KPIs you focus on. And so we went through and spent the next year, a half building standard operating procedures and checklists. And we built the exact scripts for the call center. And that just completely freed me. It was like, then there was an expected outcome. And then it was like, I remember getting bored. And all of a sudden, I became the visionary again.

And man, the business would blow up. And then, man, we'd have to go build systems around it. And then we'd break, then I'd go back in. And I'm like, here's the next step. And then we'd break it again. Here's a good question. How does a visionary distinguish between intuition and impulsiveness? between intuition and impulsiveness.

Boy, I'm not sure. I mean, I'll just tell you how that lands on me. So intuition is, I just know. And sometimes that's the, I can see the pattern. You know, I can see the matrix. I can't explain to you why or how, but I just know that that's the thing. That's the space.

That's the answer. that's the idea of whatever. When I hear impulsiveness, that's the urge to move and jump into a space or a certain direction or whatever action goes along with that. And so I think both of those things are positive. In fact, both of those things in a way are superpowers, but they're both also come with challenges, right? So if I can't explain to you why I intuit that this is the answer, then you're going to have questions, doubts, uncertainty, whatever. And so I get that.

And so there's some health to having that conversation, that back and forth with a great integrator, because a lot of times they'll ask you questions and things that you should be thinking about. And then sometimes, you know what, they need to just trust you. And that's how we get there. And so those relationships develop over time on a foundation of trust. So that doesn't happen from the beginning. We had to work at that. And then on the impulsiveness, you know, sometimes it's the timing of the move that's everything.

And because we saw it and felt it quicker, we were able to get an advantageous position because we were able to get in there first. But we can also really hurt ourselves by moving too fast without having it thought out. So that's where I think that back and forth with the integrator can really help you a lot and, you know, increase the probability that we have a positive outcome over a negative one. How's that? I love it. What's something in business?

I just got like probably seven more questions. What's one system other than the rocket fuel dual ship? And you know, this is some of the EOS stuff, but what's one system that every business should implement immediately? One system. Well, the first place my head goes on that one, Tommy, is the, you know, at EOS, we call it the accountability chart, but it's the structure for how work gets done,

who's going to do it and who they're going to be accountable to. And there's a couple of reasons for that, you know, just above and beyond the whole visionary integrator thing. So one is a lot of times when I meet an entrepreneur for the first time, and I asked them to describe their structure to me, what I see looks really strange. And I start asking them questions about how it happened. And the story for how it happened sounds something like this.

Well, you know, we had everything. And then I met, so-and-so at a trade show and this guy was a rock star and i didn't really have any place for him in the structure but man this guy's a rock star and if i don't grab him you know i'm going to lose him so i just made a spot for him and then we brought him on board and then you fast forward six months and that same pattern happened again and then six months later that same pattern happened again and at some point they get to me and they look back at this thing they've created and they're like who man it did not intend for it to end up looking like that and so when you when you build your

structure with intentionality, what you're basically doing is saying, all right, it's a white sheet exercise. Let's scrape all this stuff off the page of how it is right now or the way we've always done it. And let's think, all right, if we're looking into the future, you know, 18 months, 24 months in the future, whatever the next big hill is we're trying to climb. You know how, you know, business is like a series of cliffs. We go climb this cliff and we can't see anything beyond that cliff until we get up on top of it and then we can see onto the next one, right? So we have, We've line aside to this next cliff that we're trying to get up on top of. So whatever that looks like, the question for now is, okay, what's the structure that we feel like is going to give us the highest probability of being able to go get up on top of that?

And you draw it out. And if you can get the team to agree that, yep, that structure, if we could do it, would give us the best chance of getting there. And then you go through a process to actually map people to that. And you get clear on what each of those seats in that structure look like. What are the core roles of each one? What's the one person they're going to be accountable to? Not two people, not dot in line stuff that's going all over the place, but literally eyeball to eyeball stuff. So if I sit down at a table with Tommy Mello and Mark is responsible for this Starbucks cup, there's no slipperiness.

There's no hiding. I've got to answer all the questions for how I'm doing with that Starbucks cup, right? So we drive all that stuff out of it. So I would say 80% of the issues that we see in a. in an entrepreneurial company are because they lack clarity on that structure and who owns what and who they're accountable to. We'll get into discussion of issues and it'll start swirling and I'll just ask the question, all right, who owns it and they'll look at each other. And they don't know. And that's the issue, right? If you can pin down where all this stuff is owned by one person.

Yep. Yeah. And I've always heard build a box, put the person in the box, don't get a person and put the box around the person because that's exactly what you talked about. And there's all this random funkiness. Structure first, people second. Three repeat questions I ask every guest. What's one piece of game changing advice you wish you knew in your 20s? That the stuff I hate somebody else loves. The stuff I hate and suck at, somebody else loves and is great at. that's really good. That's one of the better answers I've ever got. If you had to start over with

$10 million tomorrow, what would you do with it? I would hire a great integrator and we would build a platform that helped visionaries get unstuck. So it's it's I'd do the same thing. Yeah. I don't think I would. Yeah. I don't think I would. Yeah. I don't think. Yeah. I don't think. I think I would do anything materially different. I, because, and here's why I say that, because in the book, I teach something intrinsic genius, right? So it's this place where what brings you joy aligns with what you're highly competent at, that you have a drive and a cause, right? It's, I mean, it's in your DNA. You need to go make this happen.

And so for me, I truly believe visionaries are the, I believe that entrepreneurs are the answer to most of most of the problems that we face. And I keep seeing them get stuck in that hole that we talked about a while ago. And so they need help. And if we can help them go do what they were made to do, what their vision is, we can help them make that real. We can have a huge impact on the world.

I really believe that. And so that's who I want to help. That's who I want to be a hero to. And so the best way I know to do that is, through teaching tools and structures that expands the wisdom from these lessons that all these entrepreneurs have been learning for, you know, decades and centuries, really. And if we can help more of them get unstuck and go make it, make it real, make it happen, I think that's the fastest way to the biggest dent in the universe.

I agree. What's your biggest professional dream at the moment? Professional. I want to be on Joe Rogan's podcast. Joe Rogan, let's do it. All right. You know, this whole thing about thinking about, you know, last time I talked to Jay. By the way, that was, that was, you're a close number two, Tommy. Oh, good.

You're a close number two, no, it's good. Joe Rogan. That's his, that's his day job. So I'll give them that. You know, last time I talked to Gino, he was telling me about how he sold like 87% of EOS. And obviously he felt depressed. He's like, I was sitting around with bags of gold. He goes, I had everything I'd ever wanted, but no purpose.

And then he wrote the book Shine. But I think for a visionary, it's very hard to just, like, unfortunately, sometimes our characteristics and our personality are tied to business. And you wake up one day and you say, okay, I mean, for a guy like me, okay, you get to go golfing every day and fishing. That's good for about two weeks. What are your thoughts on that? Because I'm sure you've dealt with a lot of entrepreneurs that they did everything they set out

to do. And the day comes, the transaction goes through. I talked to a guy that said, I'd rather give back to $3 billion to have my business back. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you see and hear all of it, whether it's after a sale transaction or whether it's, you know, the deathbed realization. And so I keep this shorter. But, you know, my story on this, Tommy is I was in Colorado with my wife and we were hiking. And we were having the conversation of would you rather be rich or would you rather be king? Have you had that conversation before? No. Okay.

So it's sort of a classic entrepreneurial debate. Would you rather be rich or would you rather be king, right? And there's things that come with both of those. And so over the years, I'd probably had this conversation at least a dozen times with groups from EO or somewhere, right? A bunch of entrepreneurs hanging out, drinking, talking about stuff. And on that day, for whatever reason, when she asked me the question, my answer was, it depends. It depends on which one of those is going to give me

more of the freedom that I want, right? Because, you know, powers a vehicle, money's a vehicle, you know, but which one's going to give me more of the, you know, what I call unique freedom that I want? And so as I said the words, I sort of thought, huh, what freedom do I want? How would I even, start to define that. And so it led me down a path where I started studying all these different gurus, people that have lists. Everybody's got a list. They're six things. They're four things. They're nine things. You whatever. And so I gathered all these lists together and I put them on a whiteboard. I love whiteboards too. So, and by the way, I have a five board. You have a vibe board? Yeah, I have them everywhere at the house in my office and the other room.

Okay. So you get an infinite whiteboard. So I'm laying all these things out on a whiteboard. And I started doing kind of a cluster analysis where I'm like, okay, this thing's about the same as that thing. So those go together. And I clustered them all together from all these different lists. And what I found was there are nine things. There are nine different areas that matter. And so I call these the nine domains of freedom. And so what I believe is you have to look at each of those nine domains through a future self lens and go, okay, when I'm a hundred years old or 80 years old or whatever, what do I want to be true? in each of these nine areas. And then from there, you can draw a through line all the way back to today. And in the present, you can say, all right, here's the stuff I can actually do something about now

that's going to help me make that true in the future. And there's habits, there's levers of influence, there's lots of things that you can do now. And then you've got sort of goals along the way. Where do I want it to be, you know, this year, five years from now, 10 years from now, 50 years from now, whatever, throughout the whole thing. And so that picture is the definition. That's how a visionary gets clear on look. This is what I really want.

So in the first pillar, there's 10 pillars in the visionary book, the first pillar is know thyself. And it dives into, look, you've got to get clear on what you want. Because if you don't, you're going to show up there and you're going to hate it. You're going to end up with something somebody else wanted for you. Right. So I sold my business. Now I have no identity.

Now I have nothing to do. I want it back, right? Or you're on your deathbed and your kids aren't there because they hate you. You're on your, you know, eighth wife and she's not there either. And you, you know, you burned yourself out 20 years earlier than you should have because you didn't take care of your body along the way, right? It's things like that, right? So be intentional about that freedom. Be intentional about the path to get there.

That's how you solve that riddle, I believe. Reverse engineer and I got myself at 45 and I broke it down into six Fs. Family and friends, finance, fitness, faith, future self and fun. And basically everything, mine was not nine buckets, but I'm going to look at yours. Maybe I'm missing something there. But yeah, I mean, there's a lot of each of those things. And it's building the right habits along the way to get those things. happen tomorrow because they're a work in progress.

Yeah. And your definition, your definition is different than my definition is different than my wife's definitely. Everybody's definition is different. And the tradeoffs I'm willing to make are different than the tradeoffs somebody else is willing to make. And so it's really interesting when you start to think about it like that. And in in my model, they're all interrelated. So, you know, some things help other things, some things hurt other things. And so it's a whole. Yeah. It's a fun puzzle to think about. Yeah, it is. That matters.

And reverse engineering how to get to where you'd want to be. I think a lot of people don't really know. I think you should go out and visit the people that have been where you want to go. Because I've met a lot of billionaires, and I say very, very few of them are seriously, truly happy. I mean, they turn into alcoholics or some type of drug addict. They're definitely depressed. And I just know that money is not always the answer. It's a good tool.

and it can do a lot of cool things, but it's not the only thing. Mark, I'm going to just let you, I got so many notes here, structural fuels freedom, be intentional about the systems, one person be accountable. I can go on and on with all the notes I have. But, you know, everybody needs to go out and read your book. What's the best way to get the book, visionary? So visionarybook.com.

That's it. I mean, that's, that's the, yeah, made it, made it pretty simple for you. And we got some actually some free tools to help, help folks kind of understand what's in it. And then it's available on all major, major booksellers. But then we've got, if they go there, when they buy the book, we've got more tools that they can access if they go to that site. And, you know, we've got a community for book owners talking about visionary stuff and some other things that are tools that I talk about in the book that we expand on, even more. I think this is one of my favorite podcasts just because I think people are going to really relate to this and it really hits home. I'm going to let you close this out, brother.

Anything? Well, first, one other thing. How do people get a hold of you if they wanted to reach out? They just, it provoked a lot of thought. Is there any place that's easier to get a hold of you on? Yeah, so I'm Mark C. Winters.com pretty much everywhere. So my mom insisted that I used that middle initial from the time I was a little kid. So Mark C. Winters on, that's my hand.

handle on social media, so LinkedIn, X, you know, whatever, YouTube. But yeah, so feel free. I'd love to hear from folks. And then I'll give you just the last few minutes to close us out, whatever's on your mind. Maybe we didn't hit. I think we did a good job. You know, the book I wrote because I think the visionary role is so important.

And so the book lays out the ten pillars of what it looks like to be truly great in that, in that visionary role. And so where Rocket Fuel, the first chapter was about visionaries, you know, in this book, the whole thing is about visionaries. So the feedback's been fantastic. You know, I appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity.

Amazing book, really, truly. Yeah. And so I hope it helps some visionaries. And I think it will. It seems like it is. And again, that's how we make an impact is through those visionaries that are listening. You know, we're counting on you to change the world. And, you know, the world, the world needs that continued visionary energy driving us,

driving us forward, making things happen. And so I'm eternally grateful for all of the visionaries. And Tommy, I'm grateful for you having me on today. It's been a lot of fun to talk. Catch up. It's been great, man. Next time you're in Phoenix, let me know. And I go visit Dallas from time to time.

So I'll definitely hit you up. And thank you for the time today. My pleasure.