The Home Service Expert Podcast - Harnessing the Power of Automation to Get You Out Of The Field

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Matthew Mottola is the co-founder and CEO of Venture L, the leading platform for freelancers to run their business. He is the author of The Human Cloud, and is a Forbes contributor on leadership in the freelance economy. He’s been featured in Forbes and Fortune, and was named one of the top 50 remote work experts to follow. In this episode, we talked about remote work, technology, automation, freelancing, digital platforms...

I think one major reason for change being scary, especially today, is that technology amplifies whatever situation is already present. And so if you have a weak system in place, and I love your term of like delegate versus dumping. So if you are in an in-office setting and you're a leader who just dumps or you're a leader who micromanages, technology will not fix that problem. It'll simply amplify it. And so change can be harder because it's now going to make you look worse as a leader. You're going to be more off time because things are being going the wrong way. I think that's the number one reason. And it even translates into hiring freelancers. Your example right there, you hire a software developer and

they forget their Remember My Password button. I'm still not surprised. And extrapolate that to large organizations or large systems, just because you have a technology solution does not mean that's going to be fixed in any way, shape, or form. But if you do have the right system... So bringing back to your example, if you had a quality assurance engineer ready to go before you said, check on software developer, they would have caught that. Welcome to the home service expert where each week tommy chats with world-class entrepreneurs and experts in various fields

like marketing sales hiring and leadership to find out what's really behind their success in business now your host the home service millionaire, Tommy Mello. I got Matthew Mottola on here right now, and we're experiencing a couple little technical issues, but I'll go ahead and introduce you. So Matt's an expert in remote work, technology, automation, freelancing, digital platforms. He's the CEO and co-founder of venture l he's a contributor to forbes and the uh visiting lecturer of georgia institute of technology venture l is a leading

platform for freelancers to run their business author of the number one new release the cloud or the human cloud published by har HarperCollins Leadership in 2021 and Forbes Contributor in the Freelance Economy. At Microsoft, in joint partnership with Upwork, he built the Microsoft 365 Freelance Toolkit, a tech stack for companies to manage remote freelancers. At Gigster, he built ideation connecting remote software talent with companies to build digital products. He was recognized voice for leadership teams, public investors, and media, along with international keynote speakers and advisor expert knowledge through networks. He's been featured in Forbes and Fortune, to name a few.

It was named the top 50 remote work experts to follow. This is such a big topic because during the pandemic, I think a lot of people want to learn more about everything there is to do to get remote workers. I mean, we're kind of forced into it in Arizona and we're in 17 states right now. I can't find people. It's been very difficult to get people. I was just on the phone just now, actually, I just got off with Matthew Woodward people. I was just on the phone just now, actually. I just got off with Matthew Woodward, who I work with on the SEO side of things. And we were talking about writers and other things of that nature and how to build links and whatnot. And obviously, a lot of the people here have read the book, The 4-Hour Workweek.

But it's a pleasure to have you on, Mr. Matt. How's life treating you over there? And you're in Miami, right? I am. Yeah, life is. Should we give them a little insight on what just went through, Tommy, in terms of when the computer doesn't work because the main laptop crashes? You need the Chromebook and then you hop to the phone. But besides that, it's all good. It's why you see a super wide view.

I apologize. This is the backup, backup, backup mode. I'm glad to have you on. Do you want to just give us some background on you, on your history, and how you got involved with everything you're doing? Yeah, for sure. So when you think freelance economy, simply think just remote and digitally enhanced contract work.

So this is not saying that everyone's going to be a free agent. This is not saying that everyone has to be in the gig economy. This is saying that contract work, service work, you name it, has been enhanced by digital and remote work tools. So with that sort of context in mind, I started my career as a freelancer, specifically doing business management tasks. So I was actually helping a lot of small businesses figure out new revenue strategies and then building their business plans, then jumped into leading freelance teams. So a lot of these companies would say, hey, this is a big opportunity. How do we take advantage of it? Let's build up some remote teams. So let's say you're a home service expert. You want to have a new feature, a new product, a mobile app, a web app, you name it. I would go

help them hire freelance teams. And then most recently was building a lot of the software for the freelance economy in itself. So I built the tech stack at Microsoft that enabled companies to spend up to $100 million on freelancers. So how's that, Tommy? A little more exciting than the generic, here's A, B, C, D, E, F, G. Yeah, no, that's crazy. Did you say 100 million? Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting because I'm building out some technology of my own. We use two CRMs.

We use HubSpot and we use ServiceTitan. Everything now is either API or webhook stuff with all these things. But there's no really one big massive user interface. I feel like soon between Salesforce, HubSpot's really good. There's some other ones and project management tools I really like, but you look at Microsoft's 360 and what they've done with Teams just over the course of the last year, they've literally taken the market by storm. We were looking at Slack because Slack is what I use a lot for keeping a hold of different virtual assistants and whatnot,

but it seems like Microsoft 360 and Teams has done a great job. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's interesting. I'll be honest. I actually mostly use email. I know it's so kind of old school and not tech savvy, but most times, most collaboration, it happens between email. And sometimes even it's a WhatsApp message or a text message. I think when we look at technology, right, it's always bundling on bundling. Forget the famous quote that's like, that's literally all software is in building a business. You're either in a stage of you're putting everything together or you're taking it all apart. I think for a while, we've taken everything apart. So you have a tool for everything, right? You have a tool for email automation, you have a tool for prospecting, you have a tool for social automation, you name it.

And now we're starting to come back to bundling where we're saying, okay, we want one master place, right? We want one master Slack, we want one master Microsoft Teams. I think personally, like my contrarian view, and you're probably not going to be surprised by this. I think if you don't have the right humans in place, then none of these systems are going to work. And so whether we're talking about Salesforce, HubSpot, SalesLog, Microsoft Teams, SharePoint, whatever, if you don't have the right humans and the right systems in place, all of this kind of doesn't matter. It is a big piece. I'm not going to lie to you. Human beings matter. I think I was using... I was definitely using Upwork before it was called Up piece. I'm not going to lie to you. Human beings matter. You know, I think I was using, I was definitely using Upwork before it was called Upwork.

I was on Fiverr when it used to cost five bucks for everything. Now you can't find anything on Fiverr for $5, but it's a cool concept. I really think just there's a skill up. If those of you that had never heard of Upwork, you could basically get anything done whether that's citation sites for your google my business page if you want the best of facebook if you want just somebody to help you become a better writer you can get it done on upwork you can put all kinds of filters you can put they need to be in the united states you but

they need to be speak english you can put they need to speak german and english you can put anything you want filters and then you can look at all their last gigs and how they're rated and how much they've made over the time they've been on. Can you give us some pointers if we wanted to go find somebody? Do you recommend using Upwork? And if not, which one do you recommend? Yeah, so it's 100% contextually dependent. I think Upwork is great in certain scenarios. I always like to say, start with your existing network. So if there's a designer that you've worked with that you like, ask that designer if they have a fellow designer or a copywriter or whatever you need.

So that's usually where I start is my existing network. With that said, going from there, it's building your bench. I think one misnomer of the freelance economy is that it is this gig thing, right? Where you keep taking on transaction, transaction, transaction. It's 100% not. I have a bench of 15 to 50 freelancers that I absolutely love working with. I'll work with them for the rest of my life. And so it's not a do it once or set it and forget it. It's a build a lifelong partnership and relationship. And these people probably never, ever, ever want to work with you full time, but they would love to work with you 20 hours a week or whatever outcome you decide. So step one, start with the existing people that you already know. Step two, actually really start

to grow your bench. And then step three is if you're doing the hiring, you do have to think about yourself in an outcome way. So let's tie it all back to home service experts. Let's say that you want to increase your revenue. You start to drill down and okay, what kind of things can increase my revenue? Let's say a poor web presence. Now let's think about what is going to drive your web presence. Is it media SEO? Is it a website? Is it a mobile app? You name it, but you have to think in outcomes. So you don't just say, Hey, I'm going to go hire a developer. You say an outcome is going to be a landing page or a mobile app or marketing

collateral. And you hire based off the outcome, not just because someone's smart and you give them a day rate or because they have a specific skill. So those are the three things. Start with the people you know, build up the bench of people you trust, and then kick it to outcomes, not just hiring based off like a drop record, just a person. So I've got software built off of Upwork. And the problem is, depending on what country you're dealing with, my brother-in-law is a CIO at GE

and he does a really, really good job at his career. He travels to India a few times a year. He's in China a couple of times a year. He's very successful. And he said, look, I can get data analysts to come on for $50,000 a year, the best of the best. But the difference is they need a leader that actually tells them exactly what they want. I had code developed in 2012 and there was no remember my password at the bottom

until I asked them for that. It's just the commonalities. Sometimes we take for granted some things that we say, I want a website that ranks. And then you get back this thing because you didn't have a good project manager to go in and say, I need this answer. I need to know what kind of theme you want. I need to have this. I need to have this. I feel like that's kind of normal in business. We kind of just dump instead of delegate properly. I think when you can take the home service industry and marry it with a really good software company or a good project manager who understands software it's amazing the outcomes you could get because literally you could read it between the lines and you can take

regression testing and understand humidity factors and commonalities of credit score and when something's going to break and actually predict it. But overall, I think that there's a lot of people that are still missing out on technology and that haven't embraced some of the things that we're talking about. You know, it's kind of weird that all you do is do technology. And I'm a big technology fan. I mean, there's not a lot of stuff I haven't used over the years for different things. I might even use Salesforce. But I feel like a lot of people have not switched to maybe a really robust CRM, or maybe they've not embraced technology. And some of us have had to through the pandemic. Why do you think people are so scared to bring

on these new softwares and this new world that's coming together with Bitcoin and crypto and everything else? I think one major reason for change being scary, especially today, is that technology amplifies whatever situation is already present. And so if you have a weak system in place, and I love your term of like delegate versus dumping. So if you are in an in-office setting and you're a leader who just dumps, or you're a leader who micromanages, technology will not fix that problem. It'll simply amplify it. And so change can be harder because it's now going to make you look worse as a leader. You're going to be more off time because things are being going the wrong way. I think that's the number one reason. And it even translates into hiring freelancers.

Like your example right there, you hire a software developer and they forget their remember my password button. I'm still not surprised. And extrapolate that to large organizations or large systems, just because you have a technology solution does not mean that's going to be fixed in any way, shape, or form. But if you do have the right system... So bringing back to your example, if you had a quality assurance engineer ready to go before you said, check on software developer they would have caught that uh likewise i literally just got from the freelancer that does ux reviews and so if you said instead of hiring this one freelancer i'm gonna hire a couple and one's gonna do a ux

review one's gonna do a design review you name it you also would have been fine so i think that's the number one reason it's just that change in a technology environment, it's amplifying what already exists. And that is scary. Most businesses are suboptimal and technology just makes that suboptimal and that's even worse. I talked to a guy the other day. So we were talking about this UI that this guy developed

and it's really cool because it pulls everything out and it allows you to kind of do a lot of comparable things and kind of see, basically I think certain software that I'm working on right now is to be able to coach people in real time. I say this, you remember in the fifties, it was black and white and you can hear that machine.

It went, it kind of made that loud noise and you can see the like figures running in black and white. And I'm going to use that. I'm doing a pretty big garage garage door show in phoenix where i'm at right now and um in november and i'm planning on pulling that out and i'm going to say guys remember when in sports they used to watch the tape and they probably still do but it's so important to watch the tape not only to watch the scrimmages scrimmages are great

because it tells us our strengths and weaknesses but it's also to find the strengths and weaknesses of the team but i'm so focused on our own weaknesses and our own strengths because if i've got a lineman that's just killing it and he's able to block the quarterback every single time i want him to work with some of my weak guys i want to be able to coach i want to be able to call the place even tom brady wants the place called to him i was talking about that you know they cover their lips because there's so many sophisticated tools out there to read the play now. But everybody deserves to be coached. And I think in the home service space, our job should be to be able to find the discount rate per technician, the average

conversion rate, average ticket, average rating online, whether that's Nextdoor, Yelp, Google, Facebook. I think you should be able to really be able to see between the lines and understand what's good, what's bad, what do we praise, what do we coach on, how do we do a performance improvement plan? And then there's the other side of it, which is the marketing side of knowing how old the neighborhood is and maybe their credit score. And there's so much technology that you could actually, I think what you said is really, really smart, Matt, as you said, sometimes we have too much and we're like, you can't even make sense of it. But anyway, what I was going to say is when you watch the tape and all this stuff,

I'm literally looking at this guy's UI and trying to figure out why all these reports are wrong that he had. And he said, Tommy, the problem is, is because the human beings entering the data are not doing it properly. So there needs to be data integrity. There needs to be coaching on the way the system takes the input. The system's really, most software, and I've seen a couple of softwares that's buggy, but most software doesn't compute wrong.

A calculator, when you type in 4 plus 4, it will always say 8, unless you hit the wrong button and instead of plus, you put minus. And it's just a slip of a finger. And in these CRMs like ServiceTitan, there's PerformWork now, PerformWork later. There's certain things we need to do when we're on accrual accounting because of the irs and whatnot and then we've got inventory and and first in first out and all these things so i don't think software is very valuable unless you have a good coaching team and you have a good way to make sure the data is accurate i'm just curious your philosophy because people don't realize they were like, a lot of people have the same problem and they go, the software is not reliable.

I'm like, then why even have it up? Why even use it? Go back to paper. If you're not going to embrace the training of a CRM, you know, does that make sense to you? Yeah. If you don't understand the intent, then you're not going to have a good outcome. What the hell is software, right?

Let's like even define like what in the world of software, all software is, is you're not going to have a good outcome. What the hell is software, right? Let's even define what in the world is software. All software is is you have an input, you have a processor, and it turns into an output. That input is hopefully the right data. That process is some sort of algorithm that says if this, then that. And the output is literally the defined terms that you gave it. And so if we think under that lens, if you have someone without the right intent that's putting in the data, then the output is going to be worse than if you just did nothing. And a lot of examples is if you have someone that's not an expert in that specific phase,

in that specific niche, then you're going to have a bad software program. And a lot of the ways that I've seen this compound is if you're not a good program manager, yet you're building program management solutions, then you're going to have a worse software and a worse process. One of my hacks is actually before I automate anything, I make sure I have the best damn program managers in the world make our systems work. Like for example, the book, right? We had 15 plus freelancers. We only had a six month window. I don't know how the hell we got it done to be honest, but we had the best program manager in the world who was leading everything. And she was diving into tools and

building systems. But instead of sitting back and saying, okay, how can we use this software? This, this, this, this, this, we put our trust in the people. And he said, let's figure this out. Even at VentureL, I tried to automate our full client intake process. It was a nightmare. I had the, you know, the seven step email cadence, all that kind of stuff. It was a waste of time

because in reality, we should have done, you know, X, which we had one email and then we should have, you know, been able to read it differently. So that's always my take. You have to understand the intent before you can really, really dive deep

into what the outcome is. The outcome is usually just some sort of software program or technology, but you have to be the expert in the intent. I like that. It's figuring out. I always tell people when you're going to delegate, figure out the results you want to work backwards and define everything. And don't leave any rock uncovered or unturned, because what happens is a lot of people, Matt, what happens when I delegate is they go, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then they walk out and I hear them say, what the hell did he just say? And then what happens is now I'm like, just sign off, just sign off that you understand. Explain it back to me and sign off. And they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what am I signing here? Can we go over that again?

And I think it's important to really have these things signed off. And it's so hard to speak to developers because developers are a certain type of person. And there's gotta be like this translator sometimes because sometimes they work. I've been a service Titan and we were there till midnight one night. And that's when the guys were just coming in.

It was a whole team of like 10 guys that they just, they like to be there when no one else is there. And it's, it's just, they geek out, they have fun and they enjoy their jobs and it's a different type. But then they look at us and they go, well, you're different. And we are, we're all different. Real quick, Tommy, you ready for the hack though? Cause I think it's very important for us to discuss,

okay, how the hell do you actually do that? So in leading engineering teams and leading people that I don't know how to do what they do, my hack is make sure you have two things. You have the KPI and you have the comparable. If you don't have those two things, you probably shouldn't delegate because it's most likely not going to lead to a successful outcome.

So let's say an outcome is you need to have a specific user scenario. For example, when user clicks button, they need to be able to create a profile. Or maybe let's say you're building a landing page. You don't need to know that it's built on WordPress or Squarespace or any of that kind of stuff. You just need to have a comparable example of what another landing page that you would find successful looks like. And then also if you can tie it to a KPI. So for example, getting 500 people to the site in a week or something to that matter, I've noticed, you know, if you have those two things ironed out, those are generally the lead metrics that determine success. And if you don't have those two, good luck. But yeah, next question.

You know what you just said, if you translate that into home service, whether you got a good air conditioning guy, good roofing guy, good sales technician, if you have their KPIs and you know, the top four in the home service industry that I was talking about is average ticket conversion rate, booking rate, and cost per acquisition. If you have those four, you can do a lot of work on a business. But with technicians, it really is, I always want to compare to their peers. And so I'm in a meeting in, I think it was in December, it might have been in November. And I'm with all my managers and we're discussing how do we make a system that really fluctuates over time, depending on the average mean.

So the deal is the economy is good and our average ticket is going up and the conversion rate is going up. But if the economy tanks, we can't hold – we've got to just keep a system that compares to their peers. So we built this kind of mathematical equation, and it's not very complicated. It's the sum of everything, but it also takes into a little bit of outliers because if you don't take into effect outliers you can shit the bed really easily so we take into consideration things that are within a significant standard

deviation against the mean and we take that data and then we hold people accountable to that and just point to your peers and we can compare people and then we can show them the kpis that's the best way to show guys how to train and this is not rocket science anybody that's taken any math even in middle school understands that the sum of everything divided by the total is the mean and to hold people accountable to that is that's just the middle number. And as that goes up, the expectations should go up. Because let me tell you this, Matt, inflation's moving up. And to keep these standards, to not have a standard that's always changing, it happens so quick. The lowest companies fail the quickest. It's the companies that have this data and they're actually doing things and changing their prices

with inflation. That's why they say the rich get richer. And it's so true. I love the United States because you can come in with nothing and still make it in this country. I got to tell you, that's the greatest thing in the world. But I'm beginning to think with some of the AI and data and some of the things that I'm using, it's going to be very, very hard for other companies to catch me. I'm not saying I'm smarter. I'm just saying there's software companies that we're running now that we've got more data. And the more data in, if you do a double blind study with 500 versus 5,000, you're going to get more accurate data with more data in. I just think it's, I just get off on these, these discussions. I love it. You said standard deviation. I haven't heard that since college. That was great. Really? Well, talk about confidence intervals. That's something you should really talk about.

But remote work's completely changed over the last year. Since March of last year, remote work, and I remember sitting here when the pandemic happened, and we kind of knew what was coming, and I just said, man, you know what's going to get really popular? It's Zoom. Zoom's going to go off the charts. It's going to be a good stock. And I never even looked it up, the ticker, and never even bought any. And then one day I looked and I was like, oh my God, I lost a fortune. But how's remote work changed? So remote work, the huge, huge, huge, huge difference is that the actual work getting done is higher priority. There's always been remote work. There's always been a remote sales people. There's always been independent contractors.

What has changed is that remote work generally happened on the French or happened with things that weren't core. And what we realized is overnight, like what over 90% of work probably can be done in a remote manner. Now, installing an air conditioning, right? There's some things that you just can't, you have to be there in person, but pretty much everything that's not physically hands-on, we can do in a remote setting. And if it requires meetings, that's fine. There's whiteboard technology. Actually, things can work better in an asynchronous manner, meaning you never even talk. You just do it through email, or you do it through shared documents like Google Drive or Google Docs. So that's been the biggest focus or the biggest

change. It's just that five years ago, and I've always been remote, but five years ago, it was really tough to convince leaders that good quality work can be done in a remote work manner. And now we just know that's true because we've been forced to over the past year. And one important thing I want to point out, though, is the past year has been a remote work experiment. It has not been a remote work transformation. And what's different about that is that we were all forced to go into it. We didn't have the right onboarding and controls in place. So although we saw some benefits, there was also some serious drawbacks.

And if given the right onboarding playbook and right timeline, we would have ironed out the kinks. So a lot of us were not ready. There's things that I saw in the past year I didn't expect to happen in the next 10 years. But we definitely took some massive strides. So, you know, people don't know this about Upwork, but there's auditing tools for certain people that you could actually see everything they do on their computer screen. So if they're supposed to be doing some type of data analysis or writing or whatever it might be. And I posted into my, I'm in this thing called YEC.co and a

bunch of other ones. I'm young entrepreneur account. So that's when I got my first, I think I got my first one on Huffington post. My first article was delivered through there. And then I became the neat.com. And then a bunch of other ones, but someone had mentioned to me, why would you ever want to monitor your people's work? Like,

why not build a place of trust and good leaders? And, and, you know, we started, I was like, dude, here's the deal. People inspect what they expect. You, and, you know, we started, I was like, dude, here's the deal. People inspect what they expect. You should inspect what you expect.

And I expect people to time out and take breaks and have fun and enjoy the work. And I'm fine with that. And I'm not against that, but I'm like, when you're at work, you're at work. Who cares if I'm watching, I also watch my drivers. I've got a dual camera. I want to know if they're smoking in the trucks. I want to know if they're eating it on their cell phones. We've got Bluetooth. Am I supposed to just say, one guy got in an accident yesterday.

He didn't get a ticket because it was recorded. And it showed what the driver did. And I'm like, does that seem like not trusting? Or does it just seem like trust but verify? I don't know. But I was a little bit i was like that's great for you and your two hundred thousand dollar people i just find it a little bit different in certain circumstances what are your thoughts on that whole concept of trust but verify or

inspect what you expect i'd love to hear your your two cents on it i trust but verify through the actual outcomes so what i think different, and you did nail it, right? It's contextually dependent on the type of work. But so the work that I do, I prepare for failure. And so every time I'm doing something that's new, I go in thinking this is going to fail. And let me make sure that I have either a backup policy or I have other engines in case this fails. With that said, I do a very, very clear scope. And so for the majority of hiring that I do, I do not hire truck drivers. So I can't say that I've hired in a way like you had the trucking example. With that said, we are very, very, very strict in terms of

the level of quality that we expect and the scoped outcomes that we've set up front. So I personally, I'm torn about it. We don't monitor, but the type of work we do, it doesn't matter. And so I totally recognize the examples you're giving, but we just, we don't have to, right? I want to make sure I call it out because you called that out, which is very good. The worst is when people say, just because this is what I experienced, everyone else should do it. And my answer is, I don't know. We all have different leadership styles and different leadership environments that force us to do the things we do. And I'm fortunate that for ours, we don't monitor and we don't have to. I think if you're not going to monitor, you need to have more frequent check-ins. And what I would also say. So for example, I've got a door department.

And the door department lives on two different user interfaces for two different manufacturers. One's the priority over the other because we order much more through them. And what I'd like to know, and the reason why I brought this in is, what are you doing on there to not be able to get done with this many a day so i look at it like either you're on facebook or instagram and i'm not going to go in there and monitor everything and quite honestly i think it's fair enough if you want to work from home but if the output is so low there's something else going on and that's what i think uh yeah i've tried i think one super important call out that you just had to tommy is listen a lot of the people we hire they're the experts and so we wouldn't even know if we were monitoring them what we should be looking for so what we do is we make sure that

when we start to build the trust it's very very risk-free we don't just give a freelancer a massive project that if they fail we're going to be hosed. Instead, we start with something very, very small. For example, we don't even interview. We jump straight into, if it's a small thing, like let's have you scope the work. We would consider that a project over the interview. So that's one huge check that we have.

But I think something different that you're calling out is that if you are the ones that are the expert and there is a set process that you want to make sure they follow you are the ones that are the expert and there is a set process that you want to make sure they follow, that's what's different. For us, we're not the expert at SEO. We're not the expert at software development. We're not the expert at design. And when hiring freelancers, they are 100% the expert. One last thing I'll call out related to that is that freelancers want to have ideal clients. And this is what's significantly different about full-time employees. Freelancers do not want to have new clients every single day. They

want to have five to 15 that they can trust and that they always turn to. So if a freelancer sort of hoses us, shame on them. It very, very, very seldom happens because we work so hard to build up that trust in a risk-free manner and become both ideal clients and for them, ideal freelancers. Does that make sense? Because there's distinct differences that you were calling out that I'm like, ooh, those I want to make sure we make explicit. Oh, it's great. No, you're hitting the nail on the head, I think. I get a lot of good ideas and a lot of bad ideas.

But when it comes to building software, it's always picking out, is it going to be done in.NET, PHP? What do we get? You know, now there's all kinds of cool things like Ruby on Rails and Python and crazy stuff that can do amazing stuff. But a lot of times what whiteboarding is to the world you live in is it's really called wireframing, isn't it? Can you explain what that means? Yeah, so wireframing is you are imitating what the software will actually do so that you can understand the user's behavior before you need to lay down a line of code. Think about if we're building a house. Imagine if you just went straight to building a house and assumed what was best for that

user or that customer. And then they walked in and they said, oh, I actually didn't want the shower to be there. And it makes no sense that the chandelier is on the ground. And like wireframing is literally just building out the design. And before you even lay a line of code, really good entrepreneurs, you can get people to pay just for the wireframes

and you can get them to imitate each action. So you can literally build out a wireframe that looks like a full, you know, web or mobile first interface and you can get them to click certain things and get them to pay and say, this will be a month. It was $50 a month. Yeah.

It's, it's literally just the blueprints of building a house before you actually go lay down that the material. It's important that that's done because a lot of times people start developing and i think the biggest thing i can tell people that they're amateurs is figure out what you want the house to look like and then you call it the mvp the minimum viable product you get it to the point that it's functional and then as you're moving and you've got real use cases that you could apply you continue to forward develop because if you're building that house and all of a sudden you say hey do we still

have room for an extra bathroom oh my god i just saw this thing online and they got this good moon roof oh my god i want four shower heads in it and when you're building software it's the same thing you're like wait can it do this what if it did this what if it took this what if it did it and you're i mean the developer's worst nightmare is like well yeah but we didn't talk about that and this is going to change this this is going to happen here have you experienced that oh my god every single day because all software is is prioritization you can do anything in the world but the question is what do you have to prioritize because one little fix might take you a week. One moderate fix might take you six months. And so you're constantly prioritizing on how, and everything's also a hypothesis.

It's one of the biggest differences in software. The reason for that is that little things drive huge results. If you think about a software program, there's hundreds of pages of lines of code. And it's just a collection of that code that might be the difference between a million users loving your product and no one even using it again. So, yeah, we were, I mean, this morning, you know, every single morning we have a stand-up, at least with my co-founder and I, and then our different teams do a weekly or a bi-weekly. But it's always prioritization. And it's always we have a hypothesis that if we do this, that'll drive this amount of users because of this job to be done. And then we roll with it.

And in two weeks, you ship it and you hope. And 97% of the time, you're probably wrong. But you figure out why you're wrong and iterate fast. You know, the other day, someone told me about a book and I didn't buy it, but I'm going to buy it after this. It's called, I think it's called 212 Degrees with the 212th Degree. And what it is, is a 211, water doesn't boil. called 212 degrees with the 212th degree and what it is is a 211 water doesn't boil at 212 it does that one degree makes the difference of locomotion and steam engines and everything else so i think what you made me think of that is it's a small little thing it could be

a line of code that makes the difference of complete adoption or not. I think when I look at something, this is completely off topic, but I'll just go there. With Bitcoin, what people don't understand is it's hit the network effect more than any other crypto right now. And once it hit the network effect, there's really no government that could actually stop it now. And the fact is that that facebook has done the same thing i bet you with the right developers and the right time could build a better facebook but it still wouldn't do as well because there's a cost of changing and that's what people don't understand is the cost to change you get all the employees when you look at the airlines they're still using archaic software

that they built code on top of code on top of code to make it work instead of rebuilding a whole new code. Because quite honestly, the airlines can't afford to keep these planes landed. I mean, it's expensive. So it's just interesting concepts. Do you think that automation will start to take over people's jobs?

No, I do not. I will preface this by saying my co-author is the expert here. He was like the early deep learning and wrote some of O'Reilly's courses in deep learning and CIO, CTO, you name it. But from everything that I've seen, automation, just like hiring freelancers, will simply amplify your ability to do more with less. Now, if you're doing a job that is repeatable, meaning all of the data is discrete and you keep repeating it, yes, you're probably in trouble. But if you're doing something that requires creativity, which let's face it, we're all doing something that requires creativity, which let's face it, we're all doing something that requires creativity, then automation simply takes over the things that you don't want to do. So let's say,

for example, you're a great writer. You're not going to get taken over by a robot or a GP3 is one huge thing. Yes, we can probably not automate, but we can write an article that is same word count, has the same content, but there's some level of human connection that you can write it in a way that connects with the readers better than if it was GP3. And I don't know what it is. It comes down to neuroscience and things way beyond that I understand, but that's sort of the net of automation. Now, if you think about what this becomes practical, though, is things like calendaring, even Google searching,

all those little things in your life that you think to yourself, I keep repeating this, and it's just a pain in my ass, that's where automation can take over. I've got this app called Expensify. I don't need to show it to you, but it's pretty simple. I just take a picture of what I'm out to eat. I put who I'm with and what it was for. It goes directly and I put it right to the class in the QuickBooks. And I just, I basically got rid of an accountant's jobs. And quite frankly, we didn't have to get rid of anybody. We just didn't have to hire more people because each person that goes directly into the software tells us how much we spent on food and beverage, how much, when we spent it, where we spent it.

And I love it because that's just one of the things that you just literally everybody can take a picture. I write, I sign the autograph. I put the tip in there. It puts the total. It grabs everything. And it actually can transpose the whole thing. And now let's talk about that exact example, right? Because I think this is a perfect example where the way you termed it was I can get rid of an accountant.

True, right? That is 100% true. So things that used to require 100 people now might only require one person. Correct. But this is where software comes in, specifically a sort of globally, and this is getting a little too technical, but in a globally distributed world that heavily leverages software, instead of having one massive company, institution, you name it or one company that does the accounting, you have niche accountants that take over specific roles. And so what I mean by that is, I'm willing that you do have an accountant or you do have some human that does oversee your accounting services. And that might be within tax, that might be bookkeeping, you name it. But instead of you having to go to a company and that company being the only game in town or just a couple of games in town, now the individual accountants have more power to have a couple of clients that they want

to work with. Which we do highlight one woman who I think she earns over $200,000 a year or $300,000 because she has 30 clients. But that's the big difference with automation is that, yes, it will go from 100 accountants down to one, but that one accountant is now empowered to take on more clients and have more meaning, have more flexibility than they would have if they were stuck in an accounting job. Yeah, no, there's a lot of pros to it i mean look i would not want to be that person with a monotonous job i look at uh i gotta tell you i like the going to grocery stores and i like it when i go to the checkout and i got somebody that's they're checking it out real quick because i go to the store and i'm like okay i bought a six pack of beer you need to wait for my id now and then you know the damn thing doesn't weigh enough and then i got a double bag and it weighs off and i'm like, okay, I bought a six pack of beer. You need to wait for my ID now.

And then, you know, the damn thing doesn't weigh enough. And then I got to double bag it and it weighs off. And I'm like, dude. But then I looked at, you know, I'm really obsessed with what China's doing right now. And China's beating us on every single thing there is. Everybody says, don't talk about China like that. They're our enemy. And I'm like, I don't think a lot of the people know they're our enemy because a lot of a lot of english people i'll just tell you i mean it's crazy what the perceptions are on what their media tells us but they've got two different labels that they can

scan their qr codes and basically that's they don't do cash anymore and they've got they can scan your eyeball the government wants to keep control over everything, but they scan your phone or your eyeball. It's a cashless system that's going in, especially in Bangkok or Beijing. I'm sorry. You really look at the way they're doing things, and you put all the stuff on there. It knows exactly what it is without any issues. And you're in and out out and you look at it right now i'll just tell you i'm a little bit worried because they've got trains that travel at 190 miles an hour so you can live outside the city

they don't mind the commotion they don't mind the traffic as much maybe like people from new york and chicago and la but for me you know as i studied that and the buildings are going up way faster it's becoming more and more globalization is taking place that's why i think the adoption of things like bitcoin and like blockchain are decentralized and i do think it's happening and i think a lot of us are too blind to even realize it i know this is off topic but this is what we do on podcasts. What is your take on a lot of that stuff? You were the first person to ask me this, and I am so pumped you did because my background was, I mean, I grew up working class, small town America. I actually started in manufacturing. So my heart goes to the small towns and it goes to the hard as hell factory workers

that their jobs have been lost over the past 30 years. And to put it frank, no one gives a shit about them. We do, right? But politicians, you name it, they don't give a shit about them. They talk down to them and you name it. But so that was sort of my background growing up. I went to China three or four years ago. And when before I went there, everyone had told me, it's dirty, it's communist, it's this backward society. I get off the plane and I will never forget how organized, clean, nice, and advanced both the people and the city was. And this was Beijing, this was Shanghai, and I've even been to Shenzhen since.

And I also have very, very, very good friends who were born and raised in China, came to the U.S., and went back. So my sort of view on China and being on the ground also debated starting a company there. We started a company in Singapore but looked at the Chinese ecosystem. So my perspective on the Chinese people is that I've never seen such optimism and such a focus on discipline and being smart. And so, you know, most of my friends, extremely disciplined, extremely smart in STEM. And while we play sports, they go and they learn, you know, machine learning, deep learning, mathematics, science, engineering engineering that side of it with that said um i think there's compared you know to us trying to i like you said i do not look at it as a war or any of that kind of stuff because i genuinely love the culture and people and you name it over there well i have this

soft spot for us small time manufacturing right so it's a bit of a contradiction i can relate to both with that said i think we're going to miss a huge opportunity if we don't look at it as ways to collaborate, but also ways that our own society needs to stop thinking that we are the best. And when I say best, I mean that there's not things that we can't learn from them and vice versa. So I know I gave you no tactical answers. And I lived in Singapore for the last year, actually, before I was in Miami. But there are many things that I think we need to learn from the East, from Singapore, from China, from Vietnam, from Indonesia, you name it, Korea, Japan.

They have done some very, very good things that I think we should learn from and sort of integrate because there are some very, very uniquely things as an American that I take we should learn from and sort of integrate, because there are some very, very uniquely things as an American that I take huge pride in. And believe it or not, I have my own issues with a lot of things. Like, here's the thing, don't talk to me about pollution in the United States. We were actually negative emissions under Trump, and I'm not going political here. But what I'm saying is, if you're really worried, go to China and India. If you want to see why they're beating us so fast, it's because they're burning coal 25 million times faster. That's some things I don't like. I don't like the fact

that they're stealing some of our intellectual property, not to say we wouldn't do it back to them. With those two things out of it, I do think they're doing amazing things. I just want to be clear about those two things I'm not happy about, that they steal intellectual property from a guy like me and you, and they make it their own. And the fact of the pollution that I see a lot of people say, pollute, pollute, pollute, you care about the earth. Well, the United States can do whatever they want, but it's still not going to stop the majority of all confidence on the seven kinds of things. And tell me, i'll even add to your point right that the uighur crisis going on that's horrendous that is something that is you need to

know about it you need to say hell no but what i will call out is we have a lot of people in the u.s that talk about how horrendous our own country is right and talk about how horrible we are but then they go make a bunch of money in china so as much as you want to say china does these bad things yeah it's like al gore that has his private plane in 12 houses you know but china's done in 20 years what united states took in 80 years what england took 120 years to do and they blew right past us and the only reason I think it's important for this home service podcast is I want to open up minds. I want to open them up. I think it's worth going and seeing what's going on there because it's a little glimpse into our future. Because just like the railroads, the United States was number one. It built the infrastructure. They're building it faster. We're

going to be adopting some of their things. So it's fun to get in front of this stuff. And I'm just, I'm hoping that someone just says, maybe I'll just go there because it's better to be educated than not. What are some technologies and tools that home service business professionals and owners should be learning about and investing in? I think you should automate scheduling right now. If you don't have a calendar link or you don't have a calendar link or you don't have some way to automate bookings or service requests in your company, you do that ASAP. Second thing is I do think you need to look into hiring contract labor, whether that is Upwork, whether that is independent contractors, that you are the ones facilitating the invoicing and

payroll, you name it. I think those are the two that I would start with. You mentioned things like CRM and you name it. I think there's better people to talk about than myself. But in terms of my swim lane and what I think you cannot be missing is calendar automation, scheduling automation, and then being able to hire independent freelancers. And like I said before, with a lens of what outcomes do you want to accomplish? And if you think about what are some outcomes that you haven't done in the past six months, but if you had hands on deck that could do that, what would you do?

So that's what I would say. Automate your calendar, have free lunches. You know, it's interesting because I had a guy on the podcast, actually a software we use called Schedule Engine, and it's built the schedule directly into your capacity board. Now, if you were to ask me what a dispatcher's job is to do, it's to basically figure out capacity, expand capacity, keep guys driving less time.

Windshield time doesn't make anybody money. It's to figure out routing. It's to be that human being to call a customer and say, is there any chance we could reschedule because I need to get this guy here. This needs to be here. And it's a constant influx. I can't pick when all this stuff comes in. Now within scheduling,

you want to make sure to put, if there's no time available that you see, please give us a call because we have the ability to override the system because that's where the human being comes in because it's going to take some time where it's going to be able to, but eventually they'll come up and say, like Uber Eats will probably say, I can save you an extra three bucks if you could wait an extra 10 minutes. Right now it just shows up an hour late. And, you know, it's funny because Uber, everybody talks about Uber.

Oh, Amazon's just going to Uberize our industry, our home service industry. They don't know how to get good trucks and reliable trucks. They don't understand how to train the human beings. They need background checks, drug tests, and driving skills, and how to get good reviews and make customers happy. You look at HomeAdvisor failed over and over again when they used to be called service magic. You look at the third iteration of amazon home services that out and it's still failing and the problem is thumb

tack actually called me up one of the people not the ceo but a couple steps down and they said we had this dream thumb tack to give the small guys a real opportunity to do the job and i said that dream didn't work out very well, did it? And they said, no, how'd you know? I said, because the big guys can take as much work as you can handle. The big guys get paid time off. The big guys don't have attrition. The big guys don't have vacations all the time.

You know, I was a guy out in the truck for a long time. Unfortunately, when I got burned out, I didn't work that day. I didn't even want to take a phone call. And those are facts. And the problem is a big company that's burning cash in the software is they need consistency. And Amazon, they expect the closest guy to go fix the garage or go do the pool or do whatever. That's just not how it works. If that was the case, it's saying every contractor is created equal because in Uber, realistically, I need to get from point A to point B. I don't care if I'm in a Hummer. I don't really care. As long as it's got air conditioning in the summer here in Arizona, I'm fine. That's just not how home service is. So I just want

everybody to know out there, I really, really, really have not seen any signs that technology and automation will ever interfere with home service anytime in the near future. Do I believe that technology is moving at an infinite rate? It's exponential. The problem is human beings can't even handle where we're at today. The 3D printer is the biggest miracle that's ever happened, and we're just getting started with it. You know what I mean? What is your take? I had a third thing. Yeah.

And let me add a third thing, which is my, which my take on this. So what did I say? I said, calendar automation, hire freelancers. The third thing that I'm remiss,

I should, I left out, put the human back in the loop. I think one of the biggest mistakes that companies make is not doubling down on the actual human experience. Honestly, picking up a cell phone and talking to someone, I don't see that going out the window. Or building a deep relationship, I don't see that going out the window. You mentioned Thumbtack. That's a great, great, great comparable that someone might be worried

about. What usually happens on these platforms is when you meet the people you want to work with, you take it off and you take their cell phone number or you take their email. So my take in terms of where we're going, and this was something that we were very, very, very explicit about, is that the human always has come first. And we had a bit of a blip that we did stick humans in factories and put automation in front of them.

But every single time the human has come out on top and been a better experience, whether it's customer service, whether it's something like automating tasks, the human has always, always, always come on top of the better experience. So look to put them first, whether that's yourself, whether that's the contractor that you have for you, but let's be, I know it sounds cheesy. It sounds like, so not what I usually say, but seriously, like be a human, have a good conversation. Like imagine if we tried to automate most of this and then my computer broke and my cell phone broke and you name it. Like, thank God,

we're still cool people that went face to face or whatever you want to call this. And the most virtual we can get. So yeah, that's my advice. There's a copy, a lot of copies out here called how to win friends and influence people. And it's to build that human experience.

You know, I would say this though, red box when it came out was pretty cool. I used to go to blockbuster back in the day, but red box just hit a box, go to your movie. And then they came out with Netflix that they'd mailed the movie to you. So I do think the new millennium, the new kids, my niece and nephews,

they spend a lot of time like I did, but a little bit more actually. I used to play Nintendo and then Sega came out and stuff like that my dad played atari but what's going on now is our decisions are becoming more automated i do not want to get on the phone with a customer i had a gal earlier she texted me she goes yeah i tried calling him twice and i left the voicemail i said what that's the dumbest thing i ever heard have you ever heard a text message i said make sure make sure you leave it. It's an SMS. People call, they tell me they leave a voicemail. I'm like, my voicemail is full now. It's permanently full. I do not want to get a voicemail. And I used to transpose and send a text message. I still don't even want to read it. Just text me if you need something because literally, I don't even know today. I'm guessing at least maybe 60 calls came through and I

answered four of them. But text me and you'll always get a return. You want to know what's up for this time? Because I agree with what you're saying. Documentation. So if you repeat something, document it and try to automate it. And so, for example, what this is one that called a bunch of times, I'm imagining she's going to have a question that was asked prior.

And so make sure that you have it properly documented and properly automated. So for example, one huge innovation we had actually in Ventral was literally just an FAQ tab. And we had these things bespoke, right? And this happens in every single software company, every company you build in, you know, you start to have institutional knowledge, but if you don't let that out of the building and put it somewhere, then it gets lost and you do start to have inefficiencies. And so while I agree with what you're saying, what I would add to that is that it's the human plus the automation, with the automation being documentation, so that if it is something that you've done prior, there's accurate avenues for never having to deal with you if you would not like to. You know, I can't stress that enough. We just reactivated an ivr an ivr for those

of you that don't know it's press one press two press three when it's on a voip system which is internet protocol so every phone system i know now for the most part is voip and we were getting so much spam because so much computer learning is going on and ringing our shit that it says press one. If you're a human being and need something, press two. So and then the problem I have with turning the IVR on is people are like, oh, it's a big company. They got it. They got it. Like Verizon has an IVR. I don't care. I'm using Verizon. I'm not going to switch my cable company. I'm not going to switch. And my cable company, I'm not going to switch. But I got a choice where I choose.

My browser just broke. Sometimes you just click. I don't want to deal with the freaking computer system, you know, because we got these bad things in our brain built up. So I think I try to, I just say, hey, it's Tommy. Tommy Mello. I'm the owner here at A1 Garage Door Service. I just want to let you know, literally, if your phone's like ours, you're getting 20 spam calls per minute. And we just want to make sure know literally if your phone's like ours you're getting 20 spam

calls per minute and we just want to make sure your human being that needs something if you're looking for a new service press one if not press two and when they press two it says are you looking for this this this then it's a longer ivr because usually they want a receipt or there's a warranty opportunity they want to know where their door is at and what it did it is it over 30 percent calls it reduced so it saved you know on a good day there we're getting 700 calls so that's 210 calls we diverted that we didn't need to take now were there a couple human beings that might have booked in there yes i'm sure but still the opportunity cost just wasn't the same this is the kind of stuff i love by the. I want to finish out with a couple of things.

I got three questions I was asked, but tell me a little bit about the human cloud. I want to know more about that. It's everything we just talked about. It's literally the fact that I can be sitting in Miami, you can be sitting in Arizona, and we can have a conversation. We can get some serious, serious stuff done. Just the fact that we can do most of our work in a digital remote manner. That's really it. The implications though,

are that you can do more with less. And so because we have such strong digital and remote tools, what used to take a hundred people might just take one person. Or what used to take a hundred thousand employees might just take 10 employees. Instagram got bought for,

what was it, around a billion dollars with like 16 employees back in, was it 2014 or 2016? That's really the net of this, is that you can do so much more with less and the human cloud is one of those tools for you to use. And if we think about sort of analogies, it's no different than the rise of the cloud, right? The cloud, before that, we used to have to have huge office parks. Each company had its own servers, but then we realized, oh, we can actually place all these servers in one location. we realized, oh, we can actually place all these servers in one location. We can tap in. We can scale up and down depending on our

customer demand, which freed up startups like ourselves to instead of very, very low costs. And then as we scale up with customer demand, we can compete directly against our competitors. It's no different with you as an individual leader, meaning you don't need to go have a 500-person organization of headcount to have an ability to make an impact you can just be tommy and you can have five freelancers or you can be tommy and five friends and have 50 freelancers and do just as much if not more than an agency it's interesting because um you know i was on the phone with matthew woodward just now like i said and he's a very very he's one of the best guys i know at seo and he he's got this he's from um the uk and he's like you know

tommy he's like i'll tell you what and he goes a lot of our employees are so good because they understand the process everything's a process and the leader tweaks the process because he is actually the artist and understands Google and AB tests in the background. And he said, a lot of our guys get stolen, but he goes, my employees, you know what I do, Tommy? I let them get stolen. He goes, because I don't want to have to raise your price every time because I'm not going

to play that game. Personally, I'm sure you've been in a situation where somebody gave you an ultimatum and they said, hey, I'm going to go work for this person if you don't do this. He says, I don't play those games. I really was impressed. Well, you know, I said, do you have some turnover going on? And he goes, yeah. He goes, but the good news is we haven't dropped any.

We haven't lost anything. He goes, everything's still good. The only thing that's tough is the UK is not on the same time zone as the United States. So that creates some barriers there. But last, I ask these same questions every time. First of all, someone wants to get a hold of you. What's the best way to do that, Matt? Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best.

You can honestly Google search, if you spell my name right, Matthew Mottola. We'll see sort of all the sites and the Forbes site, VentureL, and he bought there. But LinkedIn is a great place to start. Shoot me a message. Don't sell though. I will throw that out. There's a lot of salespeople recently. It's like five a day. Don't come straight up with an ask. Build a relationship first. That's good advice. Number two, if somebody wants to go get the book, Audible, Amazon, what's the best place to get the book? Anywhere you get your favorite books. If you have a local bookstore and they don't have it, ask them why.

They might have it in the queue. Amazon as well, Barnes & Noble, you name it. Actually, my favorite little coffee shop over here sells it as well. So wherever you get your favorite books, but Amazon works great. And if you go with Amazon and leave a review, let me know and we'll figure something out. Very cool. And if you had to give three books that really influenced you or might have inspired you in the past, what are those three books? Okay. You know, what really inspires me is the biography of Leonardo da Vinci. That is actually one of my favorites. The second was a book called the inevitables by Kevin Kelly kelly and that really really laid out the

foundation and the third one for me personally a little biased with what i do but it's a book called the second machine age by uh andrew mcafee and eric brinjolfson i would say there's another book called machine platform crowd but with that what those two books do is they talk about this thing called the great decoupling which which is showing middle class wages stagnant. I think the top of the 1980s in the productivity is exponentially increased. They might free you on a rabbit hole and now you'll be in my life. But those are the three books that I'd say go out and get right now. I got a movie for you.

It's. Oh, no. Send me the notebook. I've seen it. Here it is uh here it is here it is here it is and everybody's dying for movies yeah it's called upgrade okay 2018 upgrade and dude i think you're gonna get a kick out of it i really do so i'm gonna watch it again because I liked it that much. You know, it's actually a really cool movie. Those of you who go out and watch it, text me if you got my text or just hit me up through Messenger. I'd love to hear what you guys have to say. And then finally, you know, I know we hit a lot of things. This is not my typical podcast. We didn't dive that much into how to improve your conversion rate or how to become number one on our Google My Business page or get combat bad reviews. And a lot of that stuff is

awesome and it's important, but opening your mind, the fact that you might be listening to this podcast and just really trying to understand how to outsource, how to do things differently, how to maybe not have someone in the United States doing all your accounting. Because believe it or not, my buddy Tom Howard, that works one of the highest guys at ServiceTitan, is traveling to other countries right now with data scientists. And that's who they got working for ServiceTitan, which is, by the way, an $8.3 billion valuation in the last month. But I want to give you an opportunity to kind of take the audience

and tell them whatever you think we might have missed, maybe some actionable steps or just motivation for them i think this was great i mean we hit on we hit on china tell me that was not the briefing i was not expecting uh that is great no i i would say listen there's never been before been such an opportunity to do what the hell you want to do. And I can't express that enough. Myself, like I said, grew up working class outside of Boston. I was supposed to be an accountant.

Anything else was considered irresponsible and immature. So starting a business was considered immature. Freelancing was immature. But the opportunities that had presented ourselves because of the human cloud enable us to do so much with so little, which gives us power to actually do whatever the hell we want so if you want to be an artist get out there and figure out figure out nfts if you want to be a musician go figure out how to leverage digital tools and technologies to be the best musician there is so much opportunity in this world that you can go and grab right now whatever the hell you're doing

i love it well matt i appreciate you very much this has been fantastic that i will i will and uh you know i don't think i'll be in miami in the next couple when you come into phoenix next you tell me when you you keep it keep riling up the chick flicks for me, Tommy, and we'll make it sooner than later. So you're, you're my reason. All right. We'll do it up. I appreciate it very much. All right. Thank you so much, Tommy. Talk soon. Great. Thank you. Hey guys, I just wanted to thank you real quick for listening to the podcast from the bottom of my heart means a lot to me. And I hope you're getting as much as I am out of this podcast. Our goal is to enrich your lives and enrich your businesses and your internal customers, which is your staff.

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