The Home Service Expert Podcast - How Storytelling Can Boost Your Marketing to The Next Level

Episode Date: May 22, 2020

Scott Harkey is the co-founder and managing partner of OH Partners, one of the fastest-growing independent advertising agencies in the United States. Crowned by the American Advertising Federation of Phoenix as its Ad Person of the Year in 2018, Scott is a member of the 4A’s Business Council. He is also on the Arizona Republic’s “35 under 35 Entrepreneurs” and the Phoenix Business Journal's “40 under 40” lists. In this episode, we talked about advertising, marketing strategy, media buying...

everybody wants to like pull the kamikaze move. It's two in the morning, the bar's closing, and then they want to go talk to a bunch of people and try to close it. Like that's not how it works. You have to put in some good conversation. You have to look at you and that's brands because you're playing to someone's emotions. People make decisions emotionally and then back them up with logic. But all the CFOs and all the smart business people want to attribute their sales to something, to some tactical reason that people made, but you're just getting the reason. They clicked on the Google ad is the reason you're getting the sale. But there was a bunch of other stuff that went into that, that you don't see because they're

making these decisions emotionally. So that's what drives me crazy is people all think people make decisions in a strategic manner. They don't. They make decisions emotionally and back them up with logic the same way you get into a relationship, the same way you choose who your friends are, the same way you choose who you're going to marry. It's the same thing. Welcome to the Home Service Expert, where each week, Tommy chats with world-class entrepreneurs and experts in various fields, like marketing, sales, hiring, and leadership, to find out what's really behind their success in business. Now, your host, the Home Service Millionaire, Tommy Mello.

Welcome back to the Home Service Expert. I'm your host, Tommy Mello, and today I have a very special guest. He's a legend in the advertising world. Met him probably six years ago, golfing. His name's Scott Harkey. He lives here in Phoenix, Arizona. Does a lot of things for marketing all over the country. Very, very big company. He owns a company called OH Partners. He's a specialist in advertising entrepreneurship, brand marketing, marketing strategy, outdoor advertising, and media buying. He's co-founded that. He's the president and the managing partner since 2008 to now.

He's also involved with Matterfilms, owner and executive producer from 2018 to now. He's on the Forbes Agency Council. He's a member of YPO and the Molina Outdoor Director of Sales and Marketing since 2007 to 2009. He's the co-founder, like I said, of OH, one of the U.S.'s fastest growing independent advertising agencies. The agency has landed on Inc. Magazine list of the fastest growing private companies for the past six years. They're one of the top 100 fastest advertising companies in the USA. And he's a member of the 4A's Business Council and speaking nationally for ANA, Media Post, Media Life Magazine, Digital Marketer, and others. He's on Arizona Republic's 35 Under 35 Entrepreneurs and Phoenix Business Journal's 40 Under 40 list that was also

the American Advertising Federation of Phoenix's Ad Person of the Year in 2018. Scott, it's a pleasure to have you on. What an intro, man. Holy cow, that's awesome. Thanks for having me on. Good to always catch up with you, man. So we've known each other for a long time and I've been into your shop plenty of times. And you guys seem to just really you picked up the casinos, you picked up the lottery for Arizona, you just the king of outdoor. You're a big brand guy, which direct response and brand go together. I know you were working on a book, and we talked about it. You have a mix of each one. Yeah, it's good. I've been working on it for two years.

I just don't want to put out crap. And yeah, you and I have plenty of good conversation about upper funnel versus lower funnel, direct response versus brand. And they're not mutually exclusive. I tend to, I think, be more attracted to the brand side. Certainly, I think we're seeing more companies bring some of the lower funnel stuff in-house. People like you and the companies that you've created understand the funnel,

understand some of the tactics that you can do, whether it's text, email, search, SEO, to really increase sales and monitor those results and make constant tweaks to get ahead of the game. And for me and for our agency, we've really wanted to focus on who are you as a company who use you or use your product or who are in a relationship with you and those that should be? And what does that consumer path of purchase look like? So when is the life cycle of somebody going to come up to where, you know what, maybe they want a new AC company because they're pissed off with their current one or because they don't have one? What does that lifecycle look like? And before they get into Google and search it,

how do you establish some sort of heart position in that consumer journey? I agree. I think that I love the example of top of the funnel. And I think about a pyramid upside down and that's kind of top of the funnel where there's a lot more people that might be interested, but they don't know about you yet. But listen, you've done a lot. You're a young guy. You're killing it. You know, we've talked a while, a while ago about you decided to bring someone in more to run your business and you'd be more involved in the sales and marketing, which that's exactly who I am. Yeah. I haven't made that leap yet, but I want, I wanted the audience to know a little bit about you, how you got started, and how you just became infatuated with marketing.

Yeah, no, thank you. I'm a total entrepreneur since I've been in high school. I got autographs at spring training games in Phoenix and sold sportsman ability on eBay all through high school. When I was in college, I found all sorts of ways to be an entrepreneur, you know, mostly unsuccessfully. Then I worked in the media world. I worked for some of the large TV, radio, out-of-home companies, sold media, and found out that I could sell media pretty well. And I understood, even as a sales rep for a media company, that I had to do the strategic research to figure out if I was working for XYZ radio company, what sort of demographics appealed to that station, what sort of products and services did they buy, and what sort of creative could I help put together that would generate sales.

And I knew I wanted to get in the agency business. I just didn't know anything about how agencies were run. So I had a longtime friend in the agency business and other friends in the agency business. Anytime I've met someone that had an ad agency, I would be like the annoying little nephew that's like, hey, what about this? Or what about that?

Or tell me about this. And one of those guys, his name was Matt Owens. And I ended up finding out he was my second cousin. And he had a small agency. And his partner was getting ready to take a corporate marketing job. And over coffee, we're like, hey, let's start an agency together. So we started an agency out of his condo in Scottsdale. We had one client that billed $200,000 in media. We made like maybe 15 or 20 grand off that client. It was all in one month. It was the only client we had. And we just hustled and did a lot of coffees and happy hours and tried to convince people that we're really smart. We could make them money if they let us do their advertising. And that was a grind for a long time. And now today, we've got over 150 employees. We're in three markets. And finally, we have some national brands that we can call our clients, which is even weird to think about. It's funny because I've got like big buck hunter here. I've got football machines and crazy stuff. I walked into your office. You had a go-kart. People were driving around. You had this little egg to sleep in. I don't even know. It's crazy.ial workforce. We compete with other creative agencies,

mostly in New York and LA, and mostly publicly traded companies who are way bigger than we are. And the things that we get hired to do are things that people can't do in-house. So I have to have a better, talented, creative workforce than large, publicly traded companies that are my clients. You know, Facebook and Google and Marriott and Procter & Gamble, they can offer people any amount of money they want to, and they can hire really smart people. But are they going to be that fun of a place to work? And for the creatives that work with our company who are amazing,

they're not working for the most part in-house, right? And so if you want to create some culturally relevant content that is truly relevant to people that's not in-house kind of created, you've got to have some serious talent and you've got to make sure you're a fun place to work because they can work anywhere. But my experience with great creative people is they want to work with places that they believe in, that are fun, that kind of fit their vibe, especially millennials. So I've made sure to dedicate kind of our company, the way it looks, the way the office is situated, what we do in terms of fun, the type of culture that we have is really conducive to a creative atmosphere.

Yeah, I think that's great. I've been in there. Everybody's super lively. They're all in meetings. Almost like a software company. I've been to Yelp. I've been over to Service Titan plenty of times, and everybody's kind of in their Titan plenty of times. And everybody's kind of in their own rooms doing stuff and everybody's doing awesome. Yeah. No, that's not going to work for us. I mean, we've kind of got like a little hipster vibe going. And just the people are so much fun. I mean, now especially, you know, it's really become a social world. It's not a broadcast world anymore, especially as if we're in the midst of a health crisis. People are

consuming media so differently than they did a year ago, way differently than they did five years ago. And I'm of the opinion that today as we have this podcast, social media is really controlling the world and pop culture has always controlled the world and pop culture and social media are now intertwining. And so for us as an agency, you know, we're hired by now mostly large brands to help their in-house teams create this relevant content that can be a social first mentality. So before it was kind of this broadcast down mentality where you create a TV spot, you create a brand, and then you trickle that down into all your channels, whether that's email or social or in-store or merchandising or whatever else. It's from the brand. It can be funny. It can be cool. It can be emotional.

And it's kind of in the premise of this 30-second commercial that you create and this brand kind of that you create, and then the tactics trickle down and then measurement below the tactics. But now, I'm of the opinion that the way great campaigns and great brands are built is from kind of a social utility first and then out, and the things that grab from a viral standpoint, from a culturally relevant standpoint, from a shareable standpoint, out. And the things that grab from a viral standpoint, from a culturally relevant standpoint, from a shareable standpoint, out. And the good news is that a lot of major brands are having trouble actually doing this, especially for all the channels that they own, earned and paid. And they're basically looking for creative writers, directors, cinematographers, strategists to work with

them to create this content that truly will be snackable and shareable in a social world. Because any big agency can create a good brand TV spot, but how can you create something that is truly shareable and memorable in a three to seven second digital social world. And so, you know, we're just kind of building to that. I mean, we just did a major RFP for social media for two Fortune 500 brands, really to kind of help kind of their social standpoint, because they're seeing where television audience is going. They're seeing where the age of television is currently with demographics. And so they're hiring us to do that. They're not hiring us to run their Google paid search campaign, but they are hiring us to co-create content together and find

opportunities in a social world to make them cooler than their in-house people can typically make. I mean, some are doing a good job, but for the most part, I think that's where the opportunity is for creative agencies. You know, I remember One Dollar Shave Club and From Poop to Gold with the Hart Brothers and getting creative with, what is that spray you spray when you go poop? Everybody's got it, but basically it's all funny stuff. Yeah, and you got like man wipes. And yeah, I mean, I had an opportunity to go listen to Michael Dubin in LA, and I heard the story of Dollar Shave Club.

And Michael has a really interesting background because he started with Sports Illustrated, and he created landing pages for advertisers at Sports Illustrated. He stumbled into these razors. But the reason Dubin was so successful and the reason that viral video was so successful, the reason he sold his company to Unilever and became the fastest, if not the fastest, one of the fastest unicorn companies ever was his background. And this is my belief anyway. He had a background in New York. He was

part of the Brigade, and I forget the name of it, but basically like this underground comedy club that a lot of the SNL guys were involved in. It was this improv club. And it's called like the Something Brigade. It's a very famous improv club in New York. And he did that for 10 years. And so when he created that viral video, he had the resources to put just an amazing viral video together. I mean, people think you just create a viral video and it happens. No, there's a whole strategy to it. But he had the writers and the technical expertise to really understand how to create entertaining content. I think entertainment companies understand better than anyone how to tell a great story and how to make it culturally relevant. I mean, the writers of SNL understand pop culture, understand what's cool, understand what's relevant,, how to put brand pillars together, how to have a purpose, how to have a mission, how to tell a culturally relevant story and tie those together

is where I think the opportunity is. And what's interesting about entertainment companies, they actually have a hard time rolling up their stories into brand, which is why most motion pictures are part of a franchise, right, that does well, like whether it's Star Wars or Marvels, it's part of a, or Harry Potter, it's tied to a brand with a story. And so it's my belief that that's where the need is. And I think that's what we're really good at is trying to put that culturally relevant story together

for brands and make them relevant in a social world. I mean, you're seeing influencers do it today. I mean, you're seeing 22-year-old influencers start their own D2C brands because they have their own distribution channel because they have millions of followers. They have their own celebrity. They know how to create content. So now they're just throwing in a brand that they've created and monetizing it. And they've seen a ton of growth on Unilever and Procter & Gamble in the CPG space. So it's really interesting right now, but a great opportunity, I think, for marketers and for brands who are aggressive, who can move fast, who can create culturally relevant, cool content,

and find distribution models for them. Because people are more open, I think, to brand choice than they've been to in a long time. Before, it's like you either drank Coke or Pepsi, you were a Ford or Chevy. Now, you could wear Under Armour or you'll buy some random shit on Instagram that you saw because it looked cool and it spoke to you and they knew you would like it. And it's some company you've never heard of and you now are expressing more of your individuality of the type of brands you wear. It's definitely a good time to be an entrepreneur, I think, in this country. I think so, too. I had Kent Goodrich with Gettle in my office recently.

And he came on the podcast. And he's a big fan of the Wizard of Azroy Williams. Of course, yep. Who seems to think, I don't have enough knowledge, but he thinks radio is still the best. And you've heard Ken before on the radio. Yeah. And his whole motto is tell a story and don't worry about your avatar,

but hit half the population six times a month. I don't care if the kids, adults, if they're not your avatar, if they're not your perfect customer, he goes, if you can hit half of them at least six times, you'll blow it up. And then he adds onto that billboards and he does some direct mail, but not a lot. But it's pretty cool to see. Then there's other people that swear by TV and just buy a broadcast. Other people that say no cable still works. And then you've got people like, because we're local here, Express Flooring, who just does TV, a lot of TV, a lot of cable. Do you have a certain take on any type of media to get started with? Or you think if you go all in, you just got to pick one? Or

what's your take on it? So I do have a strong take here. And here is my take. We are in a ever-changing media consumption cycle. You know, you talk about billboards, but right now, guess what? No one's driving around because we're in a health crisis. And so radio's down. Television has been declining for four years, but now television in the last two months up 35, 40%, right? So I believe in buying what's hot and what your audience is on. I'm all about who is spending time with what medium and how does that index with your industry? I just don't like blanketed things people say

like TV doesn't work for me, radio doesn't work for me, print doesn't work for me. It all depends. When you're a national advertiser and it's 10 years ago and American Idol's hot, you need to be on American Idol. Or if you're a beer company, you need to be in the NFL and doing whether that's a sponsorship or television or there are certain brands that Super Bowl commercials work great for. There's others that don't. Direct mail can still work. So I just think people consume media differently and it's constantly changing. And I'm not a big

believer in formula advertising where you have a specific formula and that works for everyone and you roll that out. I think that's totally bullshit. I think each medium depends on the demographic you're going after, the market that you're in, the type of budget that you have, the type of industry that you're in, the type of competitive that you're going after. So if there's some guy in your market, you're a plumbing company that's been dominating TV, well, you know, good luck trying to get market share on television. You got to do something else. I just believe deeply in having a strategy and understanding what your budget and resources are for that strategy. And then you can line up media tactics at the very last piece of it.

But a lot of times people want to start with the media tactics first. Media tactics is the absolute last thing that you do in marketing. It's deeply understanding consumer insights and understanding where your consumers are. If you're a Reebok and you have a new shoe targeted at 16-year-olds, well, then like TikTok and Snapchat's a great tactic for you. If you're a plumbing company and you're targeting 45-year-old females in Alabama, well, I probably wouldn't suggest being on TikTok, right? So it just depends. If there's a great billboard and you have a good billboard market and billboard rates are pretty cheap, and you're targeting men that drive around and you want to really build brand and support

billboards and search marketing together, that's probably a pretty good strategy. So maybe some people like to buy track homes, but I think sophisticated marketing people buy custom homes and each creative strategy, media strategy, consumer strategy, I think should be custom to each person's situation. So, yeah, I agree with that. You know, I think that a lot of people that I meet, especially in the home service space, I just feel like marketing is like the last thing they think about. And it's the kind of the first thing I think about. And yeah, the deal is, it's like you ask who's the most expensive in town. Like if I was to ask you, who's the most expensive HVAC company in town? No idea.

Well, you'd probably say probably get a little parker and sons because typically the one you hear the most advertising is probably the most expensive to cover those costs there's nothing wrong with it yeah you know they answer their phone 24 7 you know they got nice trucks you know they're doing drug test and background checks you know they're using quality parts because they've been around a long time and then there's also the person that says i'm going to call the guy off a crisis those. Those are not your customers. It's interesting. Gettle understands that plumbing is kind of like ad agencies in some ways, or even like storage facilities. Like you don't need it until you need it, right? But when you go to that little

Google search bar and you type in AC company, plumbing company, and then you're going to see some people that you have heard of. And for me, I'm a big foodie, but I don't like to take a gamble on a restaurant. I wanted someone that's used them or someone that has a brand behind them. I don't want chains either, but you want that brand, what I call brand love.

You want that feeling that when you see that name, you've heard them before and you know they're legit and you know that you don't want to deal with some bullshit. So yeah, I'd agree with you. I know a guy specifically I'm talking about in town. Very nice guy. Spends 28% of his revenue on marketing, which is way too high, but he does a lot of outdoor branding, but he doesn't do any pay-per-click and his website doesn't rank well. I like the Gary Vee model. You need the jab, jab, right hook.

In my opinion, you need positive brand jabs. And it could be you're doing something to community service. Someone's heard of you. Someone's recommended you. Someone saw a social post. Someone saw a billboard. Someone saw a TV ad. And there's just a little spark of, you know what? They seem kind of legit. So the creative has to be good. It has to look good. It has to feel good. I relate marketing to relationships a lot because it is. It's a relationship and no one wants to go out with a person that's dressed like shit that shows up late that you've never heard of before. People want to date the person that dresses nice, has their shit together. You've heard positive things about them. They look good.

They show up on time and you're like, okay, cool. But everybody wants to like pull the kamikaze move. It's two in the morning, the bar's closing, and then they want to go talk to a bunch of people and try to close it. That's not how it works. You have to put in some good conversation. You have to look at you. And that's brands because you're playing to someone's emotions. People make decisions emotionally and then back them up with logic. But all the CFOs and all the smart business people want to attribute their sales to something, to some tactical reason that people made. But you're just getting the reason. They clicked on the Google ad is the reason you're getting the sale. But there was

a bunch of other stuff that went into that that you don't see because they're making these decisions emotionally. So that's what drives me crazy is people all think people make decisions in a strategic manner. They don't. They make decisions emotionally and back them up with logic. The same way you get into a relationship, the same way you choose who your friends are, the same way you choose who you're going to marry, it's the same thing. Yeah, I agree with you completely. You don't want them to have buyer's remorse. And we really focus on that as the last step in our sales process, which is after you've collected the money, spend time with the customer, tell them about their warranty, clean everything up, ask them if there's anything else you can do for them while they're there, show them where the sticker's at. And that way they're

kind of like that, that backing it up mentally with their brain is there, but they definitely bought emotionally at the time. So I think that that's a hundred percent. And I think I'm becoming a much bigger fan of social media than I was say three to five years ago, because I think that a social media campaign and if it's done right with retargeting with the pixeling on social media can be effective. If you're hitting the right demo, it's kind of like a billboard. It's a digital billboard. It's like Facebook ads, right? Would you give me that?

No. Okay, because I'm trying to get impression. Okay, so we've talked about the funnel. I understand the funnel. I don't like the funnel. I think everyone should Google the McKinsey loop. I don't believe that there's a funnel. I believe that a consumer life cycle is circular,

the same way a relationship is circular. McKinsey did a lot of research and McKinsey's like Bain and all these other consulting companies, but they believe it's almost like a figure eight loop. So I did a ton of research. I mean, the Arizona Lottery is our client. Granted, it's an Arizona client, but they do over a billion dollars in sales. We're in 3,000 retailers. We spend close to $15 million in marketing. And what we've found is that the people play the lottery in a seven or eight year loop. They're tied to the brand and connected to the brand. And lottery is part of their almost everyday, but for sure, weekly life.

They buy lottery tickets on a daily or weekly basis. Lottery is part of their almost everyday, but for sure, weekly life, okay? They buy lottery tickets on a daily or weekly basis, the majority of players. Others, you know, call it monthly. But they have a relationship with the lottery ongoing, okay? And if you ask lottery players, they will tell you that they are convinced that they are going to win, the big one, not just little deals. And they do that for about seven or eight years in a loop. And then they leave the brand and they go away. And then new people jump in a seven or eight year loop. What McKinsey has found that every brand has a consumer cycle loop. So what you're talking about is after the sale is done, is this person is tied to you

in a relationship, a brand that you're their plumbing guy, you're their HVAC company, you're their garage door company, like you're their guy, you're their girl, you're their person, you're part of their life. You're one of the brands that they are choosing to have a relationship with. And if you fuck that up, then they get out of the loop. And then you have to constantly get new customers in. So if you have a funnel mentality, you're constantly just putting people in the funnel and shooting them out. Well, then where do they go? Do they go to somebody new? That's why email and loyalty and referral programs are all part of this consumer lifecycle loop. And if you screw it up, they come out of the loop and then someone else can

get them into the new consumer life cycle loop. But you see relationships like this too, marriages and divorces, seven year itch. You see this brand relationship loop where people stick with a service or brand for a certain number of years and then they're out and then they're with somebody else and then they have to make a switch. So it's not a funnel, it's more of a circular relationship. And that really changes your tactics, right? And social media becomes more important and personal notes and phone calls and text programs and loyalty and segmentation of your email list and SEO and what you do in the community, how well you perform the service, how cleanliness is your office, how well designed is your app and your website and easy to use. All this stuff becomes part of marketing because

it's part of your consumer journey brand loop that McKinsey defines, I think is brilliant. I just got the figure eight, basically I sent it out to my team, actually. I love looking at this stuff and just one of the things that i've always thought and it's in the ultimate sales machine is i've got a client that almost spends a million dollars a year with me how do i get a hundred more of those yeah and okay last year i had 76 000 customers for a1 garage for service so the more automated it could be so now i've got this thing that hooks up to skip youio and it text message customers and there's an opt-in and there's an opt-out and there's...

By the way, you're great at this stuff. Like when the garage door, it's like, hey, the tech's coming and the security and the professionals of dealing with you and how you have your system set up makes people part of that loop. So I agree. I think loyalty is definitely your special. I mean, you know that inside and out. I agree. Loyalty is good, but here's what was crazy that I found out a year ago is a lot of HVAC companies. And I got to tell you, HVAC is kind of the mother

of the home service. They're the most largest businesses in the industry. Some of them, you know, Parkinson's a hundred million plus everybody should look up to HVAC plumbing electrical companies. I think whether you're doing gutter replacements, working on roofing windows, Anderson's renewal does an excellent job as well. But when you look at this, a lot of these businesses, this is what's crazy is 85% of their business comes from past customers. Yes. And that to me is mind boggling

because if you were to talk to a guy that restains floors for a living, you go, that's not possible, right? How could they generate, unless they do what the ultimate sales machine says, Chet Holmes, and he says, well, even for carpet cleaning, he went to a company and they said,

yeah, we do the average carpet every two years. He says, well, how do we forget a little more customers? How do we do that more often? They did a whole case study. They found out that getting your carpet every six months kills germs and keeps your people healthier. Anything past six months, you're spreading the germs and people are getting sicker. So my point about that, the whole thing is how do we figure out a way to keep them in our life cycle longer, depending on your home service niche and figure out a way to monet them in our life cycle longer, depending on your home service niche, and figure out a way to monetize past customers more and lost opportunities rather than always going after that

new shiny object? 100%. I mean, most people I talk to, how do I get what I would call net new logo, right? How do I get new people in the funnel? And I do agree with you. Arizona Lottery is another great example. I mean, typically a lottery player is a little bit older. And in the casino and lottery business, everyone's trying to figure out, how do we get millennials? How do we get millennials? How do we get a younger customer? And the truth is, you know,

most millennials like more game of skill until they hit a certain life cycle, then they become a casino player or a lottery player, typically, which is why you've seen Vegas go more entertainment driven, because they just didn't have the product for millennials. But they were banging their head against the wall trying to appeal to millennials, try to appeal to millennials. Then we're like, you know what? Lottery, for example, let's just get our existing players to play more and feel good about playing more. So we came up with games

that were fun, cooler, had bigger prizes, bigger price points. So someone playing $5, can we start getting them to play $10? Casino is the same thing. That's why casino loyalty programs are amazing. They have some of the best loyalty programs you've ever seen. They have their customers segmented out about how much they play, when they play, how to incentivize them. Their direct mail programs are ridiculous. I mean, people like MGM and Caesars have 70 million cardholders that they send information to and have loyalty programs around. So yeah, I would agree with you. Getting them to play more, do more, add more value is absolutely low hanging fruit and probably better money spent than always trying to acquire new.

Because it's expensive to acquire new. You have to be a brand that people know about and you have to convert it to the lower end of the funnel. It's funny, most people get into the game. They're like, I'm just gonna go pay-per-click and compete and realizing that that's very competitive and they're not making any money on the new people they're bringing through the door. The only way you can run your business off of only pay-per-click

is if you're converting at a ridiculously high ratio or if you're overcharging the customer. And I don't think that most companies do both of those. You know, it's funny because I just watched this series called McMillions and it's all about the Monopoly game that McDonald's had. And it's more about how they kind of took advantage of, they set up the winners, but when they played the McDonald's Monopoly game, their revenues spiked 40% when these contests were going on. 40% and gamification is a huge deal internally with your own internal

customers, which is your, your staff. And then you've got own internal customers, which is your staff. And then you've got your external customers, which is your normal clients. How do we get more into gamification in the home service space? Is there anything that you can think of that stands out or is that, I guess, depends on the company? Yeah. People just want to feel, again, I mean, take it to a relationship setting. They want to know that it's a two-way street and that you're giving and listening and engaged with them.

That's why social media is so powerful. It's not a microphone, megaphone medium. It's a two-way communication medium. And consumers today, people today want a humanized two-way relationship. And so what are you giving in the relationship? Are you putting them in contests? Are you donating to their charities? Are you donating to their little league?

Like, what is the relationship that you're in? And it's a trade-off. And that's what the great brands are figuring out. And frankly, good companies like McDonald's understand is that they need to play a real role in their customers' lives. And gamification is certainly one way that shows you're fun, that you care, that you're giving away things, that you're offering incentives for their business. But you're also, again, sponsoring their kid's little league team. You're doing all the little things.

I handled Raising Cane's Chicken Fingers for a number of years before my client sold. They were phenomenal at this. They were killing McDonald's. They were killing Chick-fil-A. If you look at the Raising Cane's business model, they had two things on the menu, but how they're ingrained in the community and what they do for people

once they get inside the restaurant and what they do for people once they get inside the restaurant and what they do for the community that they sit in. It's amazing. I mean, they sponsor every team around the area. They give incentives to businesses around there. They'll drop food by. I mean, they just become that friendly neighbor that actually like gives a shit and they sell a ton of chicken fingers for doing that. It's crazy. It's inspiring how they built that brand. You know, I think too often we jump in and we find somebody successful, whether it be on Craigslist or we find that one guy and we go, we got to repeat that. But then again, every business is different. So I think you got to kind of go after what works for

you, get it maximized because there's a point of diminishing returns. And then go on to that next thing. It's like, before I stopped doing residential garages, and I mean, I want to max out the whole country before I get into commercial or flooring or this or that. And I, I find people just doing, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this. And it's, it's a big mistake. So I got into event marketing with a girl named Summer from Anderson's Renewal. And we were going to do 700 events just in Arizona this year. We started cranking them out. We were making a lot of money. Things were great. And then the shit hit the fan with COVID, this thing going around with the flu. And obviously that got pumped on brakes. And I thought, I got to tell you,

I thought business was going to really get hurt. You know, we're down about 10, 15%, but we made all the cuts we could do. We really were prepared for it. We jumped into doing some TV, not a ton of TV, just enough to say we're still open. We're doing some crazy social media campaigns with a guy named Dennis Yu, who's world renowned, worked at some of the biggest, worked at Intel and Google and just crazy big companies. And basically trying to see where we're going to get the most eyeballs. And I just wanted to ask you, I'm sure you've heard good and bad. Some people are like, man, I'm gaining more market share now. All the small guys are falling off. And then vice versa. I'm sure you've heard nightmares. What is your whole take on this pandemic going around? and when do you see the end of it coming? Yeah, it's really

interesting. I'm not sure when the end is here. I mean, we are one of the agencies working with Department of Health Services on actually COVID-19 messaging. So we've been privy to a lot of data and statistics and we actually just are a research company, OH Predictive Insights, just put out a nationwide poll and an Arizona poll on consumer sentiment in the market. In fact, I just got this. I'll read some of these. Mike Noble just sent me this. I thought it was really interesting.

Top three perspectives that Arizonans are most concerned about coronavirus impact are economic perspective 87 percent health perspective 79 public safety perspective 78 percent and over 90 percent of Arizonans today avoided public gatherings purchase plan top five items Arizona's plan of purchasing 31 days. Food, 91%. Household supplies, 70%. Personal beauty care, 36%. Medical health care, 28%. Streaming entertainment. Home improvement supplies, 19%. This didn't really tell me much.

My belief is that the world, when this is done, I think in warmer states, I think it'll be this summer. I do think what I'm hearing is going to come back. But I think people's overall mindset has shifted. And I think media consumption has shifted. And I don't think it's ever coming back. I think people have a new appreciation for the human connection that they're missing. I think people will forever consume media a lot differently. I think this will revolutionize the work-from-home model and the virtualization of meetings and a virtual world.

I think sustainability and cleanliness in events and gatherings will forever be changed. And it'll be interesting to see who will be strategizing for the comeback and what that will look like. I do think right now there's a lot of brand uncertainty. So I think more than ever, I mean, what you look for as a service company is people who are open to making a new decision, people who are open to changing the way they've been doing things. So the way I see it in Q3, Q4, Q1 of next year, you have a huge population, call it the 400 plus million Americans, now are a little more open-minded to every brand

relationship they were in. So if you had a plumbing company, if you had a house person that came and cleaned your house, if you had a auto repair shop, I think more now because so much has changed in your life, you're open to switching characters. You're open to going to new hotels, new airlines. Maybe you stay the same, but you look for this consumer pattern that is erupted and is open. And I think now as a service company, your time is now because people are more open-minded to switching services, saving money, finding different value, finding more cleanliness people. You're open. And so if it were me and I was a home service company, I would be looking for ways to exist in the new media consumption patterns

that will be different than three months ago. And I'm going to market with a strategy in mind that the people now could potentially be up for making a switch if the value was right, the speed was right, the cleanliness was right, the ease and technology was right. And in that business, it's typically a you need it when you need it kind of basis. And also, I'd want to make sure I'm protecting all my current customers that they don't shop around on me. Because again, the world has shifted. People's mindset is different. Media consumption is different. And oh, by the way, in third and fourth quarter this year, media will be more expensive than it's ever been before. You have a presidential election that means a lot. You have

all these brands that have paused advertising and taking money off the table, immediately trying to get a recovery and putting money back into third and fourth quarter. So I'd be really scary of traditional broadcast media in third and fourth quarter. It's going to be very expensive. Digital media is going to be very expensive because of the presidential election. Now, if we're still in lockdown mode and it's crazy and coronavirus is everywhere in third and fourth quarter, different story, but I don't think it's going to. I think you'll see a lot of brands be racing to recover

and media getting very expensive and people having to get very creative with their message, their loyalty, and how they're acquiring customers and how they're creating value for existing customers. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that we're going to come out of this thing here at the end of the second quarter. I think that you make a lot of good points about the new medium now and the work from home. I can't tell you, I am so in love. I mean, I'm at the shop right now. There's probably 10 of us here, but I enjoy coming into work. I, I love the atmosphere of being at work with other people,

but to watch what's going on with people that are on performance pay and know that they could function and know that our booking rates not only gone up, but we're getting more done. You know, I had a hit list. I got right now, five, 10, probably 15, 18 things we're working on. There's a product manager, project manager for each of them, but it's amazing how much we're getting done. And I don't know it's because no one else is getting anything done, but I am in love with letting people work from home now. And what that tells me is no longer

do I need to hire people in Phoenix. I have the whole world to hire from. Number one. Number two is hospitality. You've got hospitality. You've got the travel sector. You've got everything to do with restaurants, busboys to servers, to dishwashers. A lot of them are going to want a profession, a specialty. And I think it's going to be the best time to hire coming out of this. It's going to be the best time to expand. It's going to be the best time to take market share. And from what I've talked to guys like Brian Slutsky and guys just that talk to other companies like you do all the time, and a lot of different owners, basically, the 50-year-old plus guys, and I don't want to put

them 55, 60, whatever it might be, more towards retirement, are more scared of what's going on right now. The 401k is getting hit harder. They don't know how long it's going to take to recover. They don't know how long it's going to take to rebuild their business. And if they want to wait that long, if they were thinking about getting out next year. So those are the companies I want to start targeting and come up with an opportunity for them to say, hey, look, you're in good hands. Here's why. Make some money and let us take over. And I think that there's more opportunities. And I'm not happy about this whole pandemic, but I'm happy about the way that we're strategically going about it. And I don't think there's a lot of companies doing what we're doing. I know the

big guys are, and they see this and they go, wow. I know Warren Buffett said, if everybody's jumping in, jump out. And if everybody's jumping out, jump in. What's your whole take on that? Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think great marketers have an empathy bone where they can truly empathize with how people are feeling. And if you can empathize with how people are feeling, then you can craft messaging that, authentic messaging that positions you better than competitions because you understand who you're talking to

and what they need. The boomer population and what this is doing in the pandemic, I think is a good point. And I actually have seen a couple of very well written articles that talks about when you're seeing life and death, and you're seeing people that you know die because of their age, it brings a psyche to people that is indescribable. And I think it will shift the amount of risk that certain people are willing to take. And I think it's really going to be interesting to see how that plays out. It's sad, honestly. I mean, people are living longer and you're seeing people that are older doing things you've never seen before. But then all of a sudden to see a pandemic kill people based on age and some health problems that you wouldn't consider that big of health problems

brings a whole new mind shift to people. I do think that that is true. And I don't think a lot of people are actually talking about it. I've only seen very few articles on it. I saw a couple articles that people wrote on it. But it's going to be a real thing. And to see how it plays out, especially in America, is going to be interesting.

But I do believe there is more opportunity than ever for entrepreneurs and for people that hustle and that work hard and that truly have solutions and value to offer to people. And if it's done in an empathetic way, in an authentic way, it doesn't matter the channel, as long as you're dedicating some sort of budget and you're strategic about what channels you're putting it on. And people are smart. I think they can figure that out.

There's good ad agencies out there. If you don't have somebody like yourself, Tom, that is advising you or some other professional marketing person that's helping advise you, if it's marketing is not your thing, definitely have somebody in your corner that will help guide you through this stuff. You know, there's been a lot of people that have called me and asked, Hey, can you guys work with us for that? And there's not a lot of clients in the service business that I'm working with, I'm focused more on hotels and casinos and CPG brands and more large Fortune 1000 companies. So I do refer people out.

But I always advise for you to get another set of eyes and ears from a marketing perspective. Because I think a lot of companies think they're talking to themselves. And I truly believe you should get someone outside your company to give you a fresh perspective for messaging and tactics because you have the tendency to have a biased opinion. I tell people all the time, how many times are you cutting yourself checks for your service? Never. So getting outside perspective on tone and messaging and marketing, I think is always a good thing to do. I guess I want to ask you a few more things. So you had someone come in and you just decided, listen, I want to focus on what I want to focus on. So you hired a new CEO or who was it?

Yeah. So two things. I mean, we as an agency, I hired a consultancy to come in and actually do brand work on us as an agency to find out what made us relevant to our customers. Because like I said, we're in the fire every day. We need someone to kind of take a fresh look. They did some amazing work for us, and it's helped us land some large accounts. And I'm not a big operational person. I don't like doing day-to-day operations. I can do them. But probably my best skill set is being a marketing person,

growing people's businesses that we work with, some of our large clients and doing the strategy for that. And then go finding other existing companies to work with and do speaking and go acquire other businesses for us to grow. I mean, it's really hard to find people to go sell your business better than you can. I've tried other agency owners that I know have tried. It never works out. You can hire people to do some of the operational tasks at your company. There's great people that, you know, there's good CFOs and there's good COOs and

there's good VP of ops people and there's good managers of people. I just felt that I could hire somebody better in that arena and then I could allow myself to go grow the company, which is what I'm best at. Sure, I would love to be the guy managing all the people at times, but there was a guy that was 10 times better than me at that. So we hired a guy, his name is Brad Casper from Dial. He was the former CEO of Dial, had a ton of experience running big companies, was able to put together some processes at our company, some kind of big company stuff that was very helpful to us. We could still keep the small

company feel and the culture, but also, you know, take some pages from his playbook that definitely made us a better company. And I've learned a ton from him. You know, I'm 37. And, you know, he's been around the block a few times, worked at Procter & Gamble. So I've learned a ton. You know, I'm a college dropout marketing guy. So I've learned a ton. And I think he's learned a lot on my side in terms of what makes great marketing. How do you acquire customers? How do you grow an agency? How does the agency business work? So it's been a learning experience. Nothing's easy with partnership and the people side of the business. It's come with challenges. But yeah, Adweek had us as the second fastest

growing ad agency in the country, in the globe actually, that applied for Adweek in the large agency category. So we're growing, we're building a good agency. Our goal is to be the best agency to come out of Phoenix ever and to be truly a national agency that just happens to be based in our home market of Phoenix, Arizona. Right now, I would say about 70% of our brands are national, about 30% are local. And the local brands we have are pretty big brands, and they're great. But our goal is to be doing national work with some of the great creative agencies that have existed. And so our people that are from Phoenix or the people that grew up in Phoenix went to work for big agencies and came back to Phoenix. We're all kind of passionate about that. It's a competitive business and

we all want to be known as that great agency that just happened to be located in Arizona. Mostly great agencies have been in a few markets. They've been in New York and LA and Chicago. But now it's changing, right? I mean, we can fly to any one of those markets and be in LA in 40 minutes and the world's shifting. You don't have and be in LA in 40 minutes and, you know, the world's shifting. You don't have to be an agency in a big market. In fact, we have a competitive advantage in Phoenix because I have just as good a talent as the big publicly traded agencies, except I'm faster and I offer more value. So as an agency, I'd much rather go up against a big agency than a small agency because I beat the big agencies all the time because I'm faster and cheaper and just as good and I give a shit more and so that's a good position to be in

and my overhead and fixed costs in Phoenix compared to New York is is great and in this new world as people like they found out in 2008 and 2009 I think they're going to be hunkering down and they're going to be looking for for speed and value they're going to want what they want when they want it. And they want to pay not cheap, but they want a good value for their money. And so I think that levels the playing field for people that run good businesses, that are entrepreneurs, that give a shit about their customers and their employees, that run good businesses with just some good solid marketing tactics and strategies, they can grow a great business right now. It's a perfect time to be an entrepreneur right now for sure. I like what you said about you hired somebody that you thought was 10 times better at a certain role

because you knew what you do best. I think as a small business, especially in the home service space, we have a hard time. The thing that I love to do is find somebody that's been where I want to go. And the guy that was at Procter & Gamble and Dial, he was where you wanted to go. And I hired a guy that ran a $500 million. He was a CFO for a $500 million company. And we're on our way there. And it's cool to hear that from no matter how small, no matter how big you are, find the people that'll take you to that next step. There's a couple more quick,

we'll go speed around here, then I'll finish. And you know what I found with that is really interesting is, I think a lot of ways too, it's validation, right? Like, you know, I never ran a big company. I didn't graduate college. I built the biggest agency in the Southwest, you know, faster than anybody. But I didn't have the experience or the credentials and quite frankly, the confidence. So what I've found working with high caliber people like that, that you put your ego aside and you bring in, two things happen. Number one, you gain all this experience of life experience they've had at major companies. They've done stupid shit 10 times and they can

save you from doing it two times. And number two, when you work with them, everybody's smart, right? Like if you run a business right now, you have giant balls and giant guts and you're a badass and you're smart. You're really smart. You're also kind of stupid because you don't know how hard things are going to be and you just try shit. And that's why we're entrepreneurs. They're like, oh, this is way harder than I thought. But when you work with really smart people that have these crazy credentials and you realize that you can hang in the smarts arena, it's a confidence builder. And then you take their experience and their big company institutional processes into your entrepreneurial badass spirit, and you can really create great work.

Now, there's going to be some friction because they're not entrepreneurs. They're company risk adverse people. You love risk. You're a risk badass. That's why you're an entrepreneur. So finding that balance of being able to pull each other in the way that needs to happen is a delicate process, but it's a great learning lesson because you'll both learn a ton from each other. I love that. Let me ask you a couple more here. So you've got a lot of great people and millennials, I think, are the next step to the home service base too. The average plumber is 48 years old now. So we got to figure out a way to communicate to the millennials.

Most of my staff's millennials. I'm pretty happy that we figured it out. But what is your recommendation to finding great people? Yeah, I'm big on this. In the last three years, I sent the thing in for Ad Week on this. I've hired 21 people from outside Arizona that were at other large agencies that had amazing experience that wanted to raise their kids in Arizona. I knew that Arizona didn't have the talent that I needed and the talent was out there,

but I also knew Arizona was a great place to live, work, and raise a family. So I think for me, what I tried to figure out is almost a SWOT analysis for recruitment. I knew what my strengths were, my weaknesses were, my threats and opportunities were around culture and employment. We've embraced what I would say the evil empire for some companies, which is Glassdoor. Paid them the money, made us a profile, embraced negative comments that people have had bad experience working for us. There's going to be people that are going to slam you on there. And we benchmark our glass door to

other competitors nationally and locally. And we take it seriously. We have a culture that is protected. In fact, we send out two to three surveys every year to get feedback on what we could make better about working for our company, whether that's more benefits, 401k match, more days off. I think the biggest thing I'll tell you is that millennials and people in general just want to feel heard. If they feel like you actually give a shit and you listen to suggestions and you make changes based on being a democracy, not a dictatorship, they'll kill for you. They will work their ass off for you. But I think a lot of business owners that I know, they treat their companies like a dictatorship. I treat our company like a democracy

and I'm an elected leader. And I need to make, of course, tough decisions as an elected leader, but I need to listen to the people. It's hard at times because I'm an entrepreneur and I see opportunities and I see where we need to go a lot of times faster than where other people do. And I wanna get moving into that direction. And so to slow down and to get everyone on board

with where the hell you're going and to let people know that you actually do care about their opinion and you do listen isn't easy, but I think that's the most effective way to create a great culture. And when you have a great culture, to let people know that you actually do care about their opinion and you do listen isn't easy. But I think that's the most effective way to create a great culture. And when you have a great culture, when it comes time to recruit, or when you tell people you're looking to recruit, they'll go recruit for you. All that, the hiring stuff gets easy when you do kind of the blocking, tackling stuff of creating a great place to work. I agree. I always tell people, they say,

always be closing. I say always be recruiting. If you were to replace your bottom 30% and put them into the, let's say, 30 to 40 percentile, you would watch your company double overnight. I'm a big fan of that. I won't say top grading because I do think there's certain strategies that I've learned over the last three months to take somebody from the bottom to the top. A lot of it is just listening and doing what you said. Let me ask you, is there any quick tips you have for buying media since you're the king of it? Yeah, I just think there's no one size fits all approach. I think that a lot of times people have a tendency to want to grind on media people. I believe that getting a good deal with media is

all about negotiating a good partnership. And your typical tools for negotiating commodities don't apply to negotiating media. You want to negotiate media and find ways that they like you, that they like doing business with you. You're tough, but you're fair, whether that's with an agency or you're buying it direct. It truly is a partnership because they can give you better times. They can give you better deals. They can give you remnant. They can offer you bonus. There's a goodie bag of stuff that they give to people they like, not the jurors. And truly finding out what medium you can own and if your customers are truly spending time with that medium. Maybe it's Facebook. Maybe it's radio. Maybe it's billboards. And don't try to do too much. I always say,

typically, people are doing 10 different tactics. Why don't you cut that in half? Why don't you do three to five media tactics really well and get some saturation in those points before you start trying to do TV, radio, billboard, digital, email, all that shit. Cut it down and do a few really well and make sure that your customer base is the right demographic for the mediums you're on. It's not what you listen to, or what you like, or what your friend told you to buy. It's truly do the research, do surveys, find out what mediums your customers are on, what radio stations do they listen to, what social media platforms are they on, make sure you're strategically targeted to where they're at. Yep, yep. I love that stuff. I got a ton of notes.

What's the best way to get ahold of you if someone wants to reach out to you? Yeah, feel free to reach out anytime. I'm always happy to help. I know a ton of people in the industry. So a lot of times I'm literally just referring people out to friends or freelancers or media buyers or media stations that I know.

Happy to take 15 or 20 minutes for anybody that just has a few marketing questions. And a lot of times it's just validation that they're going the right direction. I've done a ton in my past life with home service. I used to handle some of the largest home service companies in the industry. This was probably five, six years ago. Worked with ARS Rescue Router, True Green, and others in that category. So I know a little bit about HVAC, AC, home service companies. So happy to help. Feel free to bounce ideas off of.

You can find me on LinkedIn, you know, Scott Harkey on Twitter. My email s.harkey at ohpartners.com. So our website is ohpartners.com. Again, my name is Scott Harky. And yeah, you can catch me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty good. Or email, I'm pretty good. We could get a quick call scheduled. And happy to help in any way you need. Okay. And then what are the three books? This is a question I ask every time, but it could be on marketing. It could be on anything. It could be the Bible. What are the three books that you'd recommend? It could be old, could be new. I like Influence. Robert Cialdini, great book. Yep.

I think an ASU guy wrote that too. Yeah. He's an ASU professor. I just read one recently, Stephen Schwartzman, the guy from Blackstone. I forget the name of it, but that's a really good book. I liked that one a lot. I think The Power of Thinking Big. kind of get annoying, but he's pretty good. And then I also like Tools of Titans by Tim Ferriss. Yep. That's a really good book. Big fan there. Yeah, I got most of those on my shelf. And then final thing we do is I'm going to give you the floor to kind of say whatever you want, Scott, to the audience. It could be about anything you want. It could be advice about how to come out of this pandemic. It could be about how to live your life to the fullest with relationships. It could be marketing advice. It could be simply business advice or how to hire better than you. But I'll give you the stage here to

close us out. Cool. I'll stick to marketing just since this has been so marketing specific. And I think I could add more value there in at least this conversation. You know, really truly understand your customers and who they are, what makes them tick, what are they attracted to, what are they fearful of? Really dissect who your audience is and what makes them tick emotionally. And then how do you put products and services and marketing message together that truly speak to that emotion? And look, people are going to be coming out of this with fear. They're going to be conserving money. They're going to be very protective over their family. They're going to be worried about

viruses. They're going to be worried about the general strength of the economy. And could this happen again? I truly believe that women 35 to 50, at least in this country, control most purchasing at some level. They really control the household. And after this pandemic, how are they going to be feeling? And how are they going to be thinking? And how are decisions going to be made?

And how can you play a positive role in their lives? That will be the opportunity. And that doesn't always look like a TV ad or a pay-per-click ad or a radio ad or an email blast. It's something deeper than that. And if you really truly sit down and develop strategy that makes people's lives better, that can really communicate and empathize with what people are going through as a company and how you can really play a part of a solution for that, you're going to grow and you're going to do great things. And it's going to change how you hire people, how you run your business, what type of culture you create. It's really kind of focusing on being the best neighbor. I mean, how can you truly, as a company, be the best neighbor in your community for people? And it's not a short-term instant success crack cocaine strategy. It's a long-term strategy that if you build a great

brand over the long term, you will really truly have intrinsic value. And you're not going to be, you're not going to understand exactly how you're getting new customers, but it's going to just happen. And you won't be able to attribute it to any sort of medium, but it's going to happen. And then dedicate a budget that makes you uncomfortable, but is business realistic for marketing. Dedicate a percentage and a number and stick with it and realize some of the marketing is going to work and some is not going to work. But especially now, when people are panicking and saving money, now will be the time where people can create the biggest move in market share. If you look over the course of history,

brands that were able to grow the most were in down times. The biggest companies in the world increased spending right after major economic downturns because they know that's the time when they can gain market share. So that's what I would probably counsel brands to is truly, deeply empathize and know who your customer is and your market. And then you'll know where to reach them and what medium to reach them and then dedicate a budget and stick with it. I love it. So right now is the time as we come out of this, that's the one thing I say is the death spiral of your company is to stop spending as we come out of this. That's why, but make sure you got eyeballs. People that are doing a radio, they're not driving right now. And exactly the billboards,

it's exactly what I'm telling people. And now's the time to make deals. Listen, I've negotiated a lot of stuff in the last few months, a lot of stuff, especially the last month. And it's crazy, not just with marketing, but between you and I, I mean, MoneyMailer is shutting down. The investor for MoneyMailer is gone. I'm getting emails from all the mailing companies saying a lot of them aren't coming back.

Yeah, media rates are down 50% and ratings are up 50%. So, you know, now's a good time to be thinking about that strategy and to be putting plans together and to be negotiating deals early. Because if you wait, when everyone's in, then it's just like the stock market. The stock's popped, you've lost all the value. I couldn't agree more, Scott. There's so much that you delivered on here.

I got a ton of notes. I'm going to post that McKenzie loop also on the podcast, so on the page, but I appreciate you coming on today. It was a pleasure and we need to get together soon. Awesome. Thanks for having me, man. We'll talk soon, bro. Hey, I just wanted to take a quick minute and thank you for listening to the podcast. You know, most people don't understand this, but the way that the podcast has grown is when people subscribe and they leave a review. So if you would please, please, please, why it's top of mind, take a quick minute to subscribe and leave a quick review. It'll help me out so much. If you just took a little bit of time right now, I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate the listeners and

the feedback. And also when you subscribe, what I'm going to do is let you know the next guest coming on the podcast. And I'll let you email me anything you want me to ask that next person coming on. All the pros I have on here. I want your feedback. I want you to subscribe so you can start giving me the questions you want me to ask and help us grow together. Also, I'm giving away my book for free now. All you got to do is go to homeservicemillionaire.com forward slash podcast. You got to cover the shipping and handling, but I'm giving the material out for free.

It's 200 pages. It's a hardcover book. Homeservicemillionaire.com forward slash podcast. I appreciate each and every one of the listeners and thank you for making this Home Service Expert podcast a success. I hope you're having a great day and thanks again.