The Home Service Expert Podcast - Transforming Your Company Into A Highly Productive Work Environment

Episode Date: November 29, 2018

Liam Martin is the Co-founder of Time Doctor and Staff.com. He started the business seven years ago, and grew both companies into the multi-million success that they are today. Liam’s mission is to help individuals and organizations be more productive and help people avoid distractions and finish tasks that matter to them. In this episode, we talked about technology, marketing, management...

This is the Home Service Expert podcast with Tommy Mello. Let's talk about bringing in some more money for your home service business. Welcome to the Home Service Expert, where each week, Tommy chats with world-class entrepreneurs and experts in various fields, like marketing, sales, hiring, and leadership, to find out what's really behind their success in business. Now, your host, the home service millionaire, Tommy Mello. Hey there, home service experts. Tommy Mello here with another podcast, and we're here to talk about

Staff.com and some different things that they've done, Time Doctors and other software that they promote. And I'm here with Liam Martin. Liam, how's your day going? Fantastic. How's your day going? It's going great. It's Friday and Fridays are always good. I enjoy Mondays, but I like Fridays more. Yeah. I mean, I like Fridays, but I look forward to the weekend, but you know what? By about Sunday, I'm ready to jump back into it. I think people need to love Mondays more. And I think that that's something that if you hate your Mondays every single day, and I'm sure that you're probably not in that category, but if you're listening right now and you just hate your Mondays, you might want to make a change in life because you hate Mondays. And that means that the majority of what you do with your time, you don't like. I love Mondays because I'm just

able to get back into something that I really care about. Yeah. I got to say, I love Mondays too. I really love Saturdays though. I love golf. I love movies, but I also love my family and I love spending time with my mom and different family members and friends. But you know what's great is I've built that at work too. And I think that that's important. And if you hate Mondays, that means you hate your coworkers, you hate your job, you hate your boss, or possibly you hate your employees and you hate the fires that are coming from work. And I think that we're going to be able to talk a lot about that today to make this stuff easier and not hate walking in on a Monday morning because it shouldn't be a bad thing. Right. Absolutely.

So you've been very successful at building a multimillion dollar business with Time Doctor and Staff.com. But more importantly, you've helped so many businesses have remote workers. So tell us a little bit about how you started in your career and what's brought you to this point so far? Sure. So I am, as you said before, one of the co-founders of timedoctor.com and staff.com. We also run a conference on remote work called runningremote.com, which we just started our first one, but we loved it so much that we're just going to reinvest and continue to go back into it every single year. And it's in Bali, which is also a great advantage

for people that want to kind of chill out in Bali. But our business really started seven years ago, where we had a bit of an issue, or I had a bit of an issue. I had a business that was an online tutoring company. And I was working probably like 14 hours a day inside of that business. And I remember actually going into my dentist's office because I had chipped one of my molars in my teeth. And I think it was like 27, 28 at the time. So still young and chipped a molar. And I go in, sit down in the dentist's chair.

The dentist's chair takes a look at my teeth. And I said, yeah, I've chipped one of my teeth. And the dentist chair. The dentist chair takes a look at my teeth. And I said, yeah, I've chipped one of my teeth. And the dentist gasped. And it's never a good idea when a healthcare professional is like gasping in front of you. That's usually kind of, you're going to have a little bit of cortisone shot from that. So I was like, what? And he said, well, which one did you chip? You've chipped all your teeth. He's like, look at your x-rays from two years ago and look at your x-rays now. Do you have terminal cancer or is something else going on?

Because I've never seen this happen. And it was from stress. It was from being incredibly overstressed in what I was doing. And I was loving what I was doing, but I was also very stressed out over it. And that stress basically stemmed from me not being able to figure out a major problem inside of that business, which was accounting for time. So inside of a tutoring company, particularly an

online tutoring company, you need to be able to properly measure and prove that if I worked 10 hours with that student, there's some type of documentation in place to be able to prove that. And what was ending up happening is students would say, hey, I didn't actually work 10 hours with this tutor. I worked with them for five. I'd go back to the tutor and I'd say, hey, did you work with Jimmy for 10 hours? And he'd say, of course I did. So what I'd have to end up doing is I would refund Jimmy for five hours and I'd pay the tutor the full 10. And that was destroying the business. And that was what was creating stress inside of my life. So I ended up chatting with a friend of mine at a tech conference called South by Southwest,

which for people that don't really know the tech industry, it's kind of like spring break for nerds. It's about 50,000 people. And we talk about everything and anything connected to technology. So I met him there and he had this little alpha called Time Doctor. And what it allowed me to do was measure the amount of time that someone spent on a computer doing a particular task. But on top of that, it included the websites, applications, mouse movements, and keyboard movements associated with that type of activity. And that's what created the factual data. So I could go back to that student and say, actually, he didn't work with you for 10 hours. He worked

with you for 10 hours, three minutes, and 28 seconds. And here's all of the documentation connected to that. So I said, man, this is going to completely change my business. And he said, yeah, but you know, it's not really done yet. And it's kind of just a crappy little alpha that I've been building. And I said, okay, that's what I want to do. And seven years later, you know, we started with Time Doctor. We added staff.com, which is more of an enterprise product for larger companies. And we've been really excited about kind of where that business has come up until today, because we've really seen the evolution of kind of remote work over the last seven to eight years, which there's been a lot of changes. Yeah, I've seen a ton of changes for remote work. I remember I used to go to, I think, well, it's Upwork now, but it used to be two companies that combined.

And that's one of the places you got. You got about 10 different places you can go now for a good VA. And then there's different ones for different qualifications. It depends if you need them to be customer facing. Are they talking on the phones? Are they your personal assistant? Because what's so nice is the internet. You can have a meeting, a board meeting with 12 people, and it can be very, very nice. I mean, right now we're on Zoom and I've used 10 different systems

like this. I used to use join.me and all kinds of different things. But tell me a little bit about some of the mistakes you guys might've made growing the company and how you overcame them. That could probably be like a 20 hour podcast, to be honest with you. Failures, failures that we had. Okay. So I'm just going to throw the top ones that come to my head. We bought the urlstaff.com way before we should have. We didn't qualify our customer properly. So we ended up buying a very expensive asset before we should have. We didn't qualify our customer properly. So we ended up buying a very expensive asset before we were ready. And I think if we had held back on that, it probably would have added an extra today, probably an extra 10 to $20 million in our pockets, to be honest with you, in terms of a bad decision. Not hiring the right talent and not really understanding

the fundamentals of how to hire good talent is something that we should have gotten really good at very, very quickly. And we weren't good at it. I still don't think we're very good at it, but we're much better than where we were even five years ago. So we have, not to necessarily get too technical, but there are infrastructure issues inside of software that if you build it one way, it will work fine, but you can't undo that decision without it costing you millions and millions and millions of dollars.

And you would have been able to make the right decisions if you had hired really good people from the very beginning. And that's another big problem that I think we have. And it applies to all industries. I mean, I think these are fundamentals that you just really... Hiring good people, definitely a big one for me. And then I think probably another one that's always jumped out at me is making sure that we just increase communication throughout our business. And that's something that is unique to remote businesses because we're located in 28 different countries all over the world. We have employees in all these different places. It's very difficult to communicate or it's more difficult than if everyone's located

in one particular office. So that's a challenge that we're constantly trying to improve and something that I thought we knew we were good at communication about a year or two ago, and now I've realized that we're not even scratching the surface. Those are two things I believe that really affect every business. In the home service industry,

it's just funny how the same things apply. I mean, we talk a lot on the podcast about CRMs, which is your customer relationship management system. And I talk a lot about project management, which is Basecamp, Zoho. I mean, what maybe it might be Infusionsoft. I've used all of them. I've used Asana. I could go on and on of everything we've used in the past sales force. But hiring is the big one that you mentioned. And I feel like we've all struggled. And the biggest thing I hear out there from small businesses in the home service industry is, how do you do it? First of all, how do you recruit? Secondly, how do you orient? Then how do you keep them and retain them? And then how do you keep

continuous training? And I call it no matter what out of all my employees, better your best. And you got to set challenges and goals for every single person, no matter how great they are. Tell me a little bit about how you've overcome the hiring. And you might, like you said, I like the fact that you're humble about it. I mean, your company's staff.com and you said, we haven't figured out exactly, but we've made a lot of progress and that's amazing to hear that. Yeah. So you would like to know a little bit more about the way that we hire as a company in essence. Yeah, that would be great to touch upon that. Okay. So I would say that we have a bit of a weird method of doing that because we're a remote business. We get a lot of resumes. A short list doesn't move

forward to me unless they've had it. I believe now it's 500 resumes. So you have to have 500 resumes submitted before you can send me a short list. And then out of those 500 resumes, you have to talk to at least 30 of those people. And that is a Skype call. That's a video Skype call before a shortlist gets forward to me. Usually a shortlist is anywhere from six to 10 people. And then at that point, that shortlist, we review all of those different candidates. I usually do video meetings with every single one of them. We do a short test with them. And usually that test is something that is measuring culture and not necessarily whether they're qualified for the position. Because if everyone that I'm getting in that short list is not qualified for that

position, then the recruiter did not do their job. So the one that I talk about always on podcasts, which we don't actually do anymore now, because now everyone knows the trick that I pull is if I'm trying to hire a designer, I'll usually tell them, I'll send them an email saying, I would like you to make these four edits to this image. Let's say I'm going to edit a logo. I want you to change this color. I want you to add this extra component to this part of the image. Let's say I'm going to edit a logo. I want you to change this color. I want you to add this extra component to this part of the image. I want you to move this image three degrees that way, et cetera. And I've given you a PSD, which is a Photoshop file. And Photoshop files can be edited very easily. All of their layers can be disconnected and you can change them around very easily. What can't them around very easily.

What can't be changed very easily is a JPEG image, which are generally all of the images that you see on the internet. So they're completely flat. They're not editable in the same way. So I tell them that I'm going to send a Photoshop file and then the attachment is actually a JPEG file. So the point of the test is not for them to make the edits because they're all qualified designers. They wouldn't be in my shortlist if they weren't qualified designers. The point of the test is to find out whether or not they'll tell me that I made a mistake.

That's the only thing I'm looking for. And about 90% of them don't. And that doesn't connect to our culture. So we have very clear cultural docs inside of our company to figure out who we want to hire for because hiring remotely is a little bit different from hiring brick and mortar people just as much as brick and mortar people are probably like we don't hire extroverted people as an example inside of the business. Generally, they don't do very well in remote work agreements. So we don't hire them. There's a bunch of other

variables that we look at. But one of them is you need to tell me when I've made a mistake. Because particularly for remote businesses, if you think that I've made a mistake and you don't tell me, it could take days before we actually fix that problem. So the feedback loop is a lot longer. So that's a perfect example of something that I would do. Once I figure out who's actually connected to our culture, then we usually have them work with us over a one-month period. We usually hire more than one person, to be honest with you. At minimum, we usually hire two people and we have them do the same tasks over one month to be able to very clearly measure who's doing a better job over that one-month period. then we'll either hire both of

those people or hire one of them for a three-month kind of basically longer trial. And then after those three months, we have another meeting with some of their coworkers and their managers and say, do we want to add this person to the team full-time? And if everyone says yes, then they're in and they're working inside of the company full time. I like the concept of that question. There's a show, and I don't watch a lot of shows, but it's called Billions. And it's got this guy named Axel who owns this billion dollar investment company. And he gets in some trouble. So they wanted to hire someone else.

And they said, solve this puzzle. Well, the puzzle was unsolvable. So they wanted to see how long it took the people to realize, hey, this is unsolvable. And he's like, I passed your stupid test. It's not possible. But it made me think of that. A lot of times what happens is we hire people and we don't put black and white metrics. They don't know if they're doing good or bad. They don't know what's expected of them. They didn't have a manual when they started. And we expect people to read our minds. We don't delegate properly. We don't. I mean, I've done this

thousand times. I tell my assistant, I need this done by this day. And they bring it to me and it's nothing like I wanted, but I didn't give them clear direction. I never gave them a manual. I never gave them the processes to get there. And I never showed them what they're being graded on. And here's what an A student looks like or an A employer. Here's what, you know, failing looks like. And I think that clear expectations, black and white measurable KPIs is the secret success and not any, well, you know, the staff all thinks, except for culture, do you fit in? Do you talk to people? Are you attempting to exert yourself in a way that fits our culture? That's absolutely more of a operational, or I guess you could say it's more

of an open-ended question. But what are your thoughts on that as far as giving them the right expectations? Oh, I think they're everything, to be honest with you. I completely agree with you there. My general feeling with regards to expectations, I can give as an example, you would use SEO to be able to get there. So we have a relatively large team. We have a couple dozen people that help with us on that. And we have very clear KPIs that I think actually, by the way, the manager has to choose KPIs that truly measure what that person can control. So initially with this SEO team, we were trying to measure, well, did you rank the particular page that we wanted you to rank for up on top of Google? And that actually was a big failure because it didn't measure what that person was actually doing. And what I mean by that is these people are going out and getting backlinks, getting other people to link to that main page to be able to rank it higher

in Google. So there's a lot of other factors. The page that they might be trying to link to sucks. The website that you're trying to actually promote may suck. There's all these different variables that work into it. So what we came up with was a measurement called cumulative domain authority. And cumulative domain authority is all websites on the internet are measured between one and 100. So Google's worth 100 points and a website that's just brand new that's popped up yesterday is worth one point. So if you got a backlink from a website like Salesforce, as an example, I know that one because we just got a link there yesterday, it's worth 86 points because they have a domain

authority of 86. But then if I link to another website that's maybe worth five points, I don't count those two as equal. I add them up. And at the end of the month, we basically give out bonuses to people that were in the top 10 percentile of the people that have acquired links. So kind of just running it like a sales team fundamentally. And once we figured that out and we got the right KPI in place, our traffic just blew up because we were focusing people on the right pieces of information. We were focusing them on the right targets as opposed to just saying blindly get backlinks. Well, if you tell someone to blindly get backlinks, they're not going to spend the next two months working on Salesforce because Salesforce is a really hard link to get.

They're instead going to get a whole bunch of links from really crappy small websites. But that's not the measurement that we're looking for. We really want the measurement that's going to produce the result. So for us, cumulative DA has been one of the best ones that we've found. And there's plenty of those types of examples. So when you look at your teams right now and your employees, you really have to figure out what's the true measurement here that we want as a result. And then on top of that, what can that person really control? So if someone who's a linker that's trying to get backlinks, they can't control whether the guy who wrote the blog post is really bad at writing blog posts.

That's an uncontrollable variable. So maybe that creates a whole bunch of difficulty inside of that process. You really have to choose the right metrics and you've got to choose the right KPIs. I think they're as important as just choosing a KPI because sometimes you might actually be getting rid of people that are absolutely amazing at their jobs, but you just weren't able to understand it because you weren't measuring them by the right variables. You speak my language and I'm going to go down a wormhole because I'm curious because we do a lot of SEO. We've got a pretty powerful blog network of about 2000 sites now with a trust

flow of 30 plus on each of them. We've got a great outreach program. We've mastered citation sites. We study our competitors in every market and we add on, we pay for the BBB. We get the really good ones. Actually, I'm a publisher now. I write for Forbes, Inc.com, Entrepreneur.com. I got to publish an article a week. And those used to be do follow links, but not anymore. Not anymore. So one of the things that I'm interested in is I met with a group about three weeks ago, and I just, this is important because if the listeners out there aren't interested in search engine optimization, here's what I would tell you. 70% of all services are found online and that's going up. And out of

that 70% is Google and that's going up. So half of your marketing efforts should be aimed at between PPC, then you've got your local algorithm, then you've got your advanced verification through Google, and then you've got your SEO algorithm, then now you've got your advanced verification through Google, and then you've got your SEO, which is organic. So they all work in a combination of a quality score, click-through and conversion and stuff. But this guy told me the other day, and I think you're going to find this interesting, and I don't think this is black hat by any means, is you get a site, and there's some tools we use to find sites out there, and I haven't done this yet, but you find the sites that are going to be the best bang for your buck.

So if I want to talk about our custom wood garage doors, and I want to talk about cedar, I might find the top wood cedar website out there and say, we'd love to write a blog. And because it's a, such a good score, like you you said the score is so good and the website link would mean so much and they're not doing a ton of outbound links it's you know a couple a week because it's so valuable to us we're willing to donate five hundred dollars towards your favorite charity in return we'll write the check to you so you can forward it to them we'd just like you to put your article on our site so potentially people could find you that are interested in the Cedar and know that we're making garage drawers because they relate

to each other. What is your thought process on that type of link building? It's not necessarily paying for a link. It's paying for charity for them taking the time to post it and their webmaster to take the time to get it onto their site. It's a backwards thing. I would say that's an interesting approach. And I think that that might be quite successful for you. There was another approach that used to be done a couple of years ago, which was, I would just send an email saying, what's your PayPal? So the title would be, what's your PayPal? And then a lot of the times people just send it to me or they ask why. And then you just deposit $500 into their PayPal.

And you say, I'd love to be able to chat with you about how we could work together. You know, give it to charity, do whatever you want with it. And it's just like, so the best responses that I get, and I'm just looking at my email today and I don't get a ton of these anymore because they're all getting delegated to my SEO manager, but I still get a dozen emails a day and they go something like this. Hi, you know, insert name. I really liked your blog post on insert blog post. I learned a lot. It was really interesting for insert particular subject here. I have a blog and I would love it if you linked to what I was doing. And those almost never work on me. And the reason why is because I see a dozen

of them in my inbox. So you have to do something different. So what we usually do is we make it very easy for people to be able to work with us. We will say something like, hi, Tony, this is Liam from Time Doctor. I'm really interested in your HVAC article. I'm so interested, in fact, in this HVAC article that I actually linked to it on our blog, and you can check out the link that I set up right here. Boom. So I've just literally given you something. We would love to be able to work together in the future because I think that we could really write a blog post together

or we could do a link exchange that I think would be helpful to both of us. And that for us gets about a 10X return versus just the direct outreach where I'm asking for something, but I haven't given anything away. And that's something like even on Forbes, as an example, even though it's a no follow back link, people would love it if you talked about people on Forbes.com. Hey, I just talked about you on this Forbes.com article I linked to you.

I would love to be able to work together. I'd love to be able to write a guest post on your blog. That is something that's going to get you further down the road than the other dozen people that are just asking for something. So particularly with SEO, you want to give before you ask. And that's generally what we do. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

I want to remind the listeners out there because link building is one way to do it. But first, what I would recommend highly is build a website that it loads fast, is mobile friendly, your title tags are correct, so the click-through rate will be up. People are spending time on the page. You have a chat box on there that people actually use. And I would take a look and talk to someone that knows a little bit about NLP or knows how to get the page set up to get the phone call. Because so many people, and I'm sure you've seen this, Liam, is they spend all this time and they

get all this traffic, but they don't convert for shit. And it's first work on conversion. Make sure when people land on your page, they're staying there. They're actually motivated to stay on the page and they're intrigued by the page. And that's why coming up with really clever blog posts and the people that get social proof and shares. One of the guys that I work with, one of my partners in the lead jet business, he did this blog post. And garage door repair Phoenix cost about 70 bucks a click. That's ridiculous. It threw the roof.

And he was able to get to number one within four months. And he says it's primarily because of a blog post he did about cool things to do in your man cave. And he did an outbound link to every one of these. He gave them all credit, but this thing got so much traffic, so many shares picked up by so much press releases, so many things that it just, it took off and it just built the site up. And it's crazy what one positive thing can do. I kind of want to dive into one more question on the SEO standpoint, and then we can move on. With getting like a company like Salesforce, what is a good tactic? I mean, that's a huge deal, 86 out of a hundred. What is the tactic and strategy going in there to get a

link like that? Relationship building. Completely and utterly relationship building. SEO is PR. There's no difference anymore. It used to be way back in the day when I first started doing SEO, you could do a lot of stuff that was a little shady and you could get away with it. And the concept of SEO for people that aren't listening, I'm sure that you know, there's white hat and black hat SEO. So white hat and nerds basically run all of SEO. So they take like the Lord of the Rings concept, right? If you're a white hat, you're a white wizard. So you're doing things by the book. And if you're a black hat SEO, you're doing stuff that Google basically doesn't want you to do. But in the earlier days of the internet, you could absolutely

get away with because it was very easy to get away with it. So my argument is that the black hat methods are basically dead. You need to only do white hat methods, which is just building long-term relationships with people. The Salesforce link, we use a tool. It's like a social CRM. Buzzstream is what it's called. We use a tool called Buzzstream. And actually our entire technology stack for SEO is Buzzstream and another tool called ahrefs.com. And between those two tools, we would figure out a link opportunity on Salesforce, as an example, using ahrefs. And then we would approach them using BuzzStream. And BuzzStream allows us to understand the context of our previous communications with that person. And I believe there were at least a dozen email

exchanges before we got that link. So you need someone who's actually invested in building relationships. And that's also why we measure our success of our linkers by cumulative domain authority, because it takes a lot of work to get a DA86 backlink. It takes 12 email exchanges, but it's really fast to get a DA10. I would say it's probably eight times easier. It kind of just goes up on an exponential scale. That's why we want to really reward that type of activity because one of those links can completely change the page that it linked to very quickly and easily. So basically it's just SEO is PR because they're talking about you on their website. You really want to treat it in the same method and what you had spoken about before, getting a lot of people to really get excited

about your blog post is probably one of the best ways to build SEO. So if you're looking at Phoenix garage doors, maybe you could write an article like, here are the 30 weirdest garage doors in Phoenix. And you could go around and you can take photos of really weird garage doors and it might pop. You might get a lot of links for it. And then afterwards, you can re-optimize that just for garage door repairs, or you can at the very bottom of that blog post say, Hey, we actually repair garage doors. If you're interested, click this link and fill out this form and we'll come and check out your garage door. That kind of stuff is usually quite powerful in the industry today. Yeah. I was going to mention that if you impress the crap out of somebody that goes

to the page, and for example, if I wanted to do service Titan, which I'm really close with them, and I did a whole testimonial and I mean, it was, it was soup to nuts. It had everything in there and they see that I took time on the video and it had great pictures. And it was just, I mean, this is going to promote their business. And I say, I really appreciate it. If you link to this, they go, holy cow, this guy took hours, if not days to do this. And it's making us a lot of money to link to this. We're definitely interested in this because we can send any garage or company to this site and they're promoting us. There's an old expression that this consultant that I work with always says it's WIFM. What's in it for me?

Yeah. And it's great to talk to you about this stuff. I'm just, I guess I'm one of those nerds and we talk a lot about gray hat because in my opinion, search engine optimization is forbidden by Google. They don't want you to build links. They don't want you doing any of that stuff. They want to naturally, organically, people talking about it when it goes on Phil, Dr. Phil or Oprah or something. They want the news and the PR, you're right, to spread it. And when you got people out there that are 100% focused on building links, that in itself is really not according to the terms and conditions of Google. It is white hat, but it's still, they're like, it's kind of like asking for a review on Yelp.

They could say, go check us out on Yelp, but they don't want you to tell them, go leave us a review on Yelp with any incentive. It's a weird dynamic, but you got to play the game, I guess. Absolutely. There's a fantastic book if you're interested in kind of media manipulation, which is called Trust Me, I'm Lying. And it's by a guy called Ryan Holiday. And he talked about all of the strategies that he used to be able to get people

to basically pick up his press stores down to the point where he has like thousands of different Gmail addresses. And he would start writing emails to like tips at forbes.com to kind of just say, hey, you know, you should really check out what Tony's doing. Tony did something that he shouldn't have done. So something that's kind of not necessarily making Tony out in a very good light, but because it's really juicy, the press guys will go after it. And then they'll write about it. The perfect example was the actual launch of his book, which was called Trust Me, I'm Lying.

He spoke to his publisher and he said, hey, whatever you hear, please say no comment. So if anyone asks you any questions about me or about my book, just say no comment, no comment, no comment. So he had fed into the press world that he was paid half a million dollars as a writing bonus, as a forward to basically writing this book, and that it was going to be a tell-all, basically showing all of the skeletons in the closet from all of these huge people that had built and written books in the past. And people were always going to the publisher to ask, is this true? Is this true? And the publisher would say no comment. Well, when someone says no comment, it gets them even more excited. And he was able to build an entire engine just off of that from a PR perspective. And obviously he also got backlinks,

he got Facebook posts, he got Twitter, Instagram interactions. He had built a lot of his brand off of these types of stunts. So think about how you can apply that type of concept towards your industry. And you think just, oh, well, you know, I'm an HVAC guy. I don't really know how to do that. Well, there's ways that you could do it, right? You could come up with stories that are really interesting that might get all over the local press. My partner of the last five years, she runs a mermaid school. So she teaches women how to swim in a pool with a mermaid tail. And she actually has a mermaid school in Scottsdale and about 15 other cities throughout North America. And she uses these types of methods all the time to be able to get people really excited in,

hey, there was a mermaid sighting in the river, as an example, and then it's just a PR stunt for her mermaid school, that kind of a thing. And you'll get the local paper to cover it, and they'll just be like, what the heck is going on? Oh, okay, it's just aqua mermaid playing around, and they threw a couple mermaids in the river. That kind of thing is something that you can really kind of, you can just sit down and think about those types of ideas. And usually one or a couple will come to you and you might as well just try them. It doesn't hurt. Yeah.

I read a book, I believe it's by the same author, Growth. It's called Growth Hacker Marketing, I believe. And he just knows how to manipulate the media. And there's that, what is it? Help a reporter out and he knows how to manipulate the media. And there's that, what is it, help a reporter out. And he knows how to get in front of these places. And he knows the latest trends. And it's basically all PR stunts. It has a lot to do with what politicians do and a lot about just manipulating the system. And it's incredible what you can do out there. And I get into those books. I got a lot of books. I listened to them on Audible and I just love it because I get on the plane. I listened to it at two times,

but I mean, I get a huge kick out of that. That was a good book too, but I'll take it back a little bit. You've done a great job of really running, you said 28 countries now you've got employees. So what I'd like to know is what do you do when you create a system and a process? What are the steps you take to build it and make sure that it's going to be fluid and work correctively? Because you just said earlier, you know, we had a system, but it didn't make sense because they couldn't influence the outcome. So how do you make sure that that's being done in a proper manner? Sure. So I have a system called the four Ds, discover, design, deploy, and debug. And I can go through them relatively quickly.

The first stage is the discovery stage. So you need to figure out the history of the process. So usually there already is a process that's in place, but you have to understand why it was built in the first place and why it's important. So why are things actually done this way? I'll give you an example. I had an old professor of mine had this story about the Christmas ham and how her mother cut the Christmas ham in half all the time. And she was always confused as to why this Christmas ham was cut in half. And so she asked her mother and she said, well, because my mother always did it that way, go talk to your grandmother. So she'd talk to the grandmother and she'd say, well, that's because my mother

always did it that way. Why don't you talk to your great grandmother? And she would go up and talk to the great grandmother. And then the great grandmother would say, well, I had a small pan, so I had to cut it in half. It wouldn't fit. That's why you need to figure out the history of the process. You need to figure out why are things done that way?

They may be done for reasons that are absolutely ridiculous. So that's your first stage, is figure out why it's happening, the discovery stage. The second stage is the design stage. So take the lessons you've learned from the discovery stage and then build your process

on what I call like the rule of three. So the first time that you do a process, you should absolutely do it yourself. The second time you do a process, you should be doing it, going through and thinking about all the steps that you need to do when you actually process it out. And then the third time you do

that particular task, you should write it down. And the reason why you should not write it down on the hundredth time that you do it or the 200th time that you do it is because you miss all the small details inside of that process if you've done something 100 or 200 or 300 times. I'll give you a perfect example. There's about eight locks getting into this office and there's an elevator and there's all of these different procedures to get into the office that I currently work out of. I probably, if you sat me down and said, Liam, without going into the office right now, write down and document how to get in, I bet you I couldn't actually write down a process that would get people into this office

because there's just so many steps and I forget about them all because they're just all subconscious. They do them automatically. I've chosen the third time just because it's really good breakdown between, hey, I'm going to make a ton of mistakes the first time I do it and the hundredth time that I do it, I'm going to forget all of the little details that you need to be able to write down to be able to communicate effective process. Third stage is the deploy stage. So you literally just take your process and you give it to your employees and you don't find out what's working. You find out what isn't. So don't go to your team and say, hey, what do you think of this process? Because they'll all say, great, it's great. Okay, that's not really useful. You need critical feedback. You need constructive criticism. So I usually ask them, what are three things I can do to improve this

process? And they'll usually write that down for me. And I've got them trained to the point in which that's working quite easily. Then the fourth stage is the debug stage. So literally, you just repeat the design and deploy stages until you have what I like to call perfect process. So discover, design, deploy, and debug. If you just implement that, you'll usually have pretty good process. That sounds quite complicated to people, particularly for people that have never done process documentation before.

But honestly, take the thing that's never done process documentation before. But honestly, take the thing that's the top time suck of your day. So if you have a virtual assistant, as an example, scheduling flights might be something that you want to be able to write out a process document for. And you can usually write up a pretty good first version within about an hour. And then you can just kind of refine that over a week or two. And then once it's refined, then you don't have to worry about booking flights anymore. I do that. I book flights weekly now. And it just happens seamlessly where I just say, hey, I need to go to San Francisco on this date. Then I need to go to Austin. Then I need to go to Vegas. And then I need to go back to Canada. And my virtual assistant, MJ, is like, cool,

done. And within a day, I've got it all booked and I'm ready to go. I love that. You know, a wise man once said, development is 10% building and 90% fixing what's built. Yeah, that's it. And that was you. I love that quote, by the way. One of the things I'm working on, it's a software and it's called checklist assist and it's not rolled out yet, but basically it's a checklist that has a picture and a video of what you want. So if you got an Airbnb, it's got everything where your towels go, what was there. But the most important thing is you could take a video. And if there's something wrong when you walk in the home, like a stain on the carpet

or a broken chair, you take a picture and you document everything and you take a quick video. It's a five minute process. As the cleaning lady leaves, she takes a picture and takes a video. So now you've got proof of how it was left when she left. It's timestamped. And if there's an issue, you know about it. If there's a picture, you know about it. There's a picture, there's a video. So you can basically get out of anything and it's cheap. And I think that if somebody paid a buck for every time they had an Airbnb or rented a car or a ski do, or if you wanted to have the right process, how to close the office at the end of the night, take a picture of this door lock, take a picture of the alarm set, make sure that thermostats are at this level. And it's super simple, super easy. And I've came up

with this simple idea, the MVP, minimum viable product to get out there. We're close. And it just made me think of that. So hopefully down the road, once I get that going, you could test it up, critique it and tell me how bad it sucks. Yeah, I think that's an Airbnb-er's dream. My business partner owns a lot of Airbnb properties, and it's one of the biggest issues is just making sure that the guests have a pleasant stay. And also that if there are any issues, that you've got documentation in place to be able to prove,

hey, this was actually spotless before you showed up. So it wasn't our fault. I mean, that's pretty cool as a concept. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. One of the questions I really have is I want to hear about Time Doctor. So tell me a little bit about Time Doctor. And I believe I'm going to take a good guess. I've not used the software, but I'm a big fan of things that keep track of employees, especially that are not in your office that you can't keep an eye on. And I'm a big fan of things that keep track of employees, especially that are not in your office that you can't keep an eye on. And I'm guessing that's what this does. So exactly. So it simply is a task management system. We integrate with about 40 different

project management and task management systems. So you can push your JIRA tasks or your Asana tasks or your Basecamp tasks, your Trello tasks directly into a desktop application. And then when you start tracking that time, it's not just tracking how much time was collected. It's also tracking what you did while you did that particular task. So what websites did you go to? What applications did you interact with? And then it gives you other metadata that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to get. So as an example, we can predict with about an 89% accuracy rate, whether someone is going to quit their job six months before they do based off of

that data, because we have such a huge, we have the largest second-by-second work database on the planet, and it allows us to be able to gain insights and gain signals into work that usual people, when you look at it consciously, no one can pick it up, but our software can pick it up subconsciously. So it allows you to create this early warning system, and then also allows you to very clearly quantify exactly what people are doing with their time and how to actually make them more productive, which is really our core mission as a company. So what it's doing basically, and this is a software we use to manage our VAs, and I'd have to ask one of my guys in the few rooms down, but it basically tracks their mouse movement and makes sure it tells you the sites they visit, it tells you how long they were on, certain stuff like that.

And I don't know how deep it dives into the metadata, but it's a good thing, especially when you're talking about in the Philippines, if you pay $4 an hour, that's the basic of what a pretty high up nurse makes. They're not high, high end, but you want to know that they're working and doing things. And we've got content writers. We've got people that are graphic designers, we've got people that are just solely working on links, same things you're working on. My question for you would be, is that basically the same concept? Is it tracking your mouse movement and just what you're clicking on and

time management of each? It is collecting all of that data. However, the difference between our software and a lot of other people in the industry is that we then are actually able to build insights off of it. I'll give you the quit example is probably the easiest one. But why is a Salesforce salesperson good at their job in comparison to someone who isn't. We can gain insights into that data. So we can tell you, well, actually your most successful Salesforce reps, they work like this. Here's what their workday looks like. And your unsuccessful Salesforce reps look like this. So if you're a brand new sales rep coming in and you've worked with Salesforce and time doctor or staff.com for a month,

you'll be able to figure out, well, the software will basically tell you if you actually spend an extra two hours on the phone, our most successful salespeople spend an extra two hours on the phone. And that's where you seem to be lacking in terms of your workday. So if you actually change those things around, you might be a lot more successful. And it just gives you things that you can look for and directions that you can go that regular pieces of software just don't have the ability to do because of the massive size of our database. We have the largest database on the planet, so we can gain those insights so much faster than basically anybody else in the industry.

Okay, so I'm gonna get greedy here and I think it's gonna help a lot of the listeners out because I don't consider myself a greedy guy, but I'm gonna use this for my business. And right now I got five people in one room, that's the door department. They order new doors for every city that we're in. And then I've got about 20 CSRs that are call center reps. And then I've

got about seven dispatchers and they're all on the phone and they're mostly in our CRM, which is service Titan. What I'd like to know is how could this software, I really want to know some of the time I'm like, wait a minute, because the all-stars are so far over to the right. And if you look at a bell curve and the outliers, they're so far to the left and they're so far to the right. How can your software, because how does it know when they're on the phone and how does it know when,

I guess I want to know how the tracking of it works and how the metadata will help predict certain things for- Yeah, so in the Philippines, a lot of our big clients are call centers. So they'll have, you know, 10,000, 20,000, a hundred thousand reps that are all on VoIP systems. Yep.

So in that case, it's very easy for us because we're able to register when what they're doing. And even with the call center software that's out today, you can say, yeah, okay, this is how long this call actually lasted. And that call is connected to this thing in that CRM. And it looks like they cumulatively spent seven hours and 28 minutes calling that person over the last month and a half, and they closed the deal or they did not. So then if you collect all of that metadata, eventually you start to gain insights into that data. I mean, we use machine learning and artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence, everyone talks about it all the time, and it's very difficult as a concept for people to understand. So for your listeners, think about it in this context. It accounts for the human mind can fundamentally only think of about three to four things, sometimes five things

at the same time. And AI can think of millions of different variables all at the same time and take them into context. So maybe it is that they spend a little extra time in their CRM on Tuesday afternoons. And it looks like you have a thousand reps out of the top hundred reps. It looks like 80% of them spend an extra half hour on Tuesday afternoons on their CRM. That would be a signal that the AI would take as a positive variable towards success. And maybe that's actually because the team

that is managing the really good sales rep says, hey guys, it's now time for our Tuesday afternoon rally and everyone needs to get on the phones. So the AI won't know why that is happening, but you'll be able to get the broad strokes. You'll basically be able to get into your data and understand those deeper insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had. And that's basically how our software works. It's kind of, I don't want to call it just magic, but basically it's magic. We use a lot of Bayesian algorithms in how we build our software. And Bayesian, the most famous use of Bayesian was during 9-11. And they were

using a previous version called regression algorithms. And no one thought that those planes were going to fly in to the World Trade Center using regression algorithm. But with Bayesian, the AI gave a 1 in 11 chance that they were going to fly into the World Trade Center on 9-11 because they were just able to look at not just a couple different variables, but millions of different variables all at the same time to be able to gain deeper insights into what people are doing with their time. So that's in essence what the software does. I wish I could give it a better explanation. I'm constantly working on how to get it better, but that's in essence what it does. I had a guy on the podcast several months ago and we talked about AI and he basically said a lot of people misinterpret artificial for augmented. And basically augmented means that they're taking a predictive. It's basically permutations and combinations of certain things and being able to pull an outcome just like they do. I think Vegas does a pretty good job of it because they come damn close a lot of the time on their over-under and their points spreads. I mean, they're using some form of this, aren't they? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They're probably using something called

machine learning, which is a little bit... I mean, the whole joke in AI is that the machine learning of today was the AI of a year from now. So like once AI kind of gets into the regular world, they call it machine learning, but fundamentally it's just looking at a whole bunch of different variables that the human mind cannot perceive of. So you can't keep in your head 10,000 different variables that affect the success or failure of your employees, but an AI can. And that's basically what it's doing. So how could this work? Once again, the selfishness is coming out. So if I wanted to make this work at A1 Garage Door Service and I go and I load this software onto my desktops. And by the way, what does this cost per user? It's $10 per user per month. so if i got 20 plus 200 bucks and 20

bucks yeah so i've got two things we use our uh telesphere which is now vonage and we use uh our computers and they talk to each other the crm picks up the void it pops up on a bubble so i think there we might just need to build some type of integration into service type. So I guess my question would be, is how could this be used to tell us certain factors? Because I think if people aren't using service type, they're using something similar out there. It's very close to everything out there. It's a dispatch, it has your call center, it does your appointment setting. Fundamentally, without a direct integration specifically designed for what your use case is, you can gain general insights into what people are doing with their time. So for us, that's really kind of a, that's why we

built the company is I came from a sociological background. So all of my degrees are in sociology and the real kind of end point for sociology is to predict human action. So if you're a sociologist, you want to know why, if there's going to be a political revolution, you want to know why. And you want to be able to figure out if you can stop it. And once I understood the true kind of keys of artificial intelligence and machine learning, I understood that that is where sociology, social sciences are all going, where we're able to basically predict human action. And if you can predict human action, then you can hire people that are actually going to be good at their jobs. You can test someone for two weeks and you can know pretty clearly whether or not this person is going to be a

successful sales rep or not. And another factor that I think I want to touch on connected to this, because you talked about all your CSRs inside of the company, is if you guys have not checked out applications like Google Duplex, that is going to completely change the entire industry to a degree where a lot of our business comes from the call center industry. And we're probably predicting about half of that call center industry to disappear within the next decade, just simply because the speed and the efficiency of Google Duplex. Do you know what Google Duplex is? I've heard of it, but I've not came across it. Yeah. So for anybody who's like, listen to this podcast right now, pause the podcast right now. It's that important.

Go type in Google Duplex on Google. Basically, Google Duplex has completely replaced. You can ask Google Assistant, hey, Google, can you book an appointment for me at my barber? Oh, I watched this whole thing. Yeah, the barber. Yeah. And then she says, your voice. And there it goes. That was my Google goes. Yeah, that was your Google assistant. So that's going to completely change the way that call center reps are going to operate because a human being can maybe smile and dial 200 numbers a day. I don't know what your numbers are, but you know, 200 dials a day would be pretty great for me. But if you have a piece of software that can smile and dial 10 billion numbers a day

and is indistinguishable from a human being, which is very quickly going to happen, they can run a five minute conversation now and they do not know the difference. The people that pick up the phone do not know the difference between a human being and the Google duplex algorithms. I mean, that's nuts. Yeah, no, it is nuts. I've watched that whole thing with the guys up there and he does a couple phone calls and he says, no, that day doesn't work for me. Okay, how about Thursday? The sad thing is my Droid phone can't understand the word are from, is it? I mean, my phone, it's like, how does it not know this? Am I that bad at speaking English?

When you see what they're trying to do and how they're assembling those different pieces, I fully expect there to be a day when no one that's calling you to try to sell you something is a human. They're all computers. I see that happening very soon within the future. I would probably say within the decade, to be honest with you, because Google won't necessarily do it, but Google will have an API that smart people like you, as an example, can take advantage of and can build their own platforms off of, and then can say, hey, you know what? I can deliver a lead to you for a tenth of the cost of what it used to be. And then there'll be a very interesting kind of ride to the bottom that I see happening to the point where people just won't answer their phones.

Right. It's relationship driven. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I have a Google Pixel 2 because I really love staying at the cusp of technology. And I'm very bullish on Google. I think they're probably one of the best companies in the world to invest in. And now my Google Pixel 2, whenever I get a phone number from someone that wants to sell me something, Google will say, this is a suspected sales rep,

or this is a suspected spam number. And I don't answer it. That's just going to keep going because those are all built off of algorithms. How long did the call last? Has that person called you before? Did you not like that phone call? Did you hang up the phone quickly? They're measuring all of those variables. And once you're able to measure all those variables, you're able to create those insights, which to me is a very interesting and exciting future.

And exciting can also mean terrifying. It is terrifying. So it's not just positive. Yeah. I'll tell you this, between you and I, I agree with you on Google. I believe it's way more powerful than Apple at this point. And I don't like some of it because I believe it's going to be by far the biggest monopoly. I'll tell you this, in the home service industry,

they do an advanced verification on HVAC plumbing and electrical then they do an advanced advanced verification where they do a background check through Pinkerton and then they call you through Google Hangouts they want to see your face your logo on your shirt your business ID your license plate they want to see you start your car they want to see the parts on your truck they want to to see the logos. They want to see a bill, a utility bill at your location. Now I've got people that I know within Google and partners with Google that they're obsessed with qualified reviews, meaning that they're going to call back customers that book through their system, which is a Google guarantee program. And then they're insuring, they're insuring that repair or installation up to $1,000.

Now, what's going to happen as a business if you do something wrong? Of course, Google is going to say, sure, we'll pay you. Then they're going to take you off of Google and you're going to pay Google back within the same day. You're not going to be able to advertise. And it's scary. It's not scary because you want to do the wrong thing. It's scary because they're becoming a monster and because they can do stupid stuff

like they took a bunch of my reviews down because their algorithm said these maybe weren't coming from the right IP address or whatever. And what the scary thing is, if I want to take down your company, Liam, all I got to do is go on Fiverr, order 50 good reviews, do screenshots of every one of them

from IP addresses from the Philippines, India, reviews, do screenshots of every one of them from IP addresses from the Philippines, India, Germany. I'll screenshot every one of them and I'll send them to Google and I'll get you pulled off. Right. Absolutely. Pretty easy through just an IP, you know, change the IP address. It's just crazy to hide my ass and all that stuff. So I just hate the fact that guys like us, we can get around a lot of things and do a lot of things bad. And we can do a lot of good stuff, too. But I hate the fact that Google thinks they're the police, which is fine. And I think they're going to give a better customer experience.

But there's still a lot of bad things that can happen out of it. And I do think they're getting too powerful. And I do think that it needs to get split up into some type of – they've got so much – look at Facebook's getting – next month, Facebook's not going to be able to do, they've got so much, look at Facebook's getting, next month, Facebook's not going to be able to do what they've been doing. The scary thing is you could be on the phone and an ad pop up on Google or Facebook because of what you said on the phone. And that's scary. Yep. As I mentioned previously, it's exciting and exciting can mean terrifying. So what Google does over the next five to 10 years could either be really bad for humanity or amazing for humanity. In 10 years, we could have self-driving cars. We don't have to

book anything anymore. Everything happens automatically for us. All of our food grown through robots and we're flying around in cars. But there also could be another future where Google could say, hey, Tony, I know that you're trying to run for Congress. And we have some interesting data from you from 30 years ago. That could be something that Google, like Google knows all your secrets. Facebook knows all your secrets. They all know all of your deepest, darkest secrets. And to me, that. They all know all of your deepest, darkest secrets. And to me, that type of responsibility and that type of power, it's not indoctrinated inside of our legal system that that data cannot be used against those individuals. They simply say they're not going to use it. And I would tend to disagree

with them because they are definitely targeting me for ads for stuff that not only I looked at before, but even now they're trying to do predictive advertising. So if you know that your HVAC system is going to fall apart within the next six months and Google knows that, well, they might start sending you HVAC ads. And yeah, that's my brother-in-law works for GE. He's fairly high up there. And he said between artificial intelligence and virtual reality, look out because they're training everybody now.

They actually fix. So the engines on a plane could repair themselves and they could self-diagnose on a little vibration, a little algorithmic pattern of a vibration will tell them exactly what's going to fail on that motor way before it does. Yep. No. And that's something that is just going to be applied to every aspect of life. And that's why for us, we really bet the future of our business on artificial intelligence because we recognized that outside of every other movement, I probably think that artificial intelligence is bigger than the internet when I think about how it's going to change everyone's daily lives. And the internet

completely changed everyone's lives. So I think that AI is actually going to be a lot bigger than that. And that's why we decided to invest the future of our business inside of artificial intelligence. And the results are really exciting, as I was saying before. It scares me and we're doing it. So take that as you may. No, it's a great... Look, I'm in front of the curve. If I can keep staying in front of the curve, I'm happy. The minute I fall behind, I'm going to be sad. So there's a movie that came out that I went and seen that was actually amazing. It was about this guy. He gets in this accident and he goes paraplegic and the chip in the back of his neck. And I'm trying to think of the name.

I thought it was called Uploaded, but it's something like that. But the chip talks to him and it communicates between his cells. So he's able to move again, but through the chip. So as long as he thinks it, he's able to do it. But sometimes he says to the chip that's got a mind of its own. If he allows them to, you know, get me out of this fight and he starts doing all this weird judo stuff and the things doing it for him. And I'm like, it was an amazing movie.

It makes me think about this stuff. And then I went and seen, you talked about sociology. Won't you be my neighbor with Mr. Rogers last night. And I got to tell you, I think everybody that's listening to the podcast, I mean, I got a little teary-eyed at this point where this little guy is on this, he sings this song with Mr. Rogers. He comes on this, he's paraplegic as well, and he's on his little wheelchair and he just starts singing. And it's just how impactful was that guy? I mean, I used to watch him as a kid.

So both movies, if I could think of the darn movie, and I'll post it when I post this podcast, I'll put it on there. But great movie. And I think you got to go see it, Liam, because I think you'd get a kick out of it. And you're going to, you know, you should call me and let me know what you think of it. I'll email it to you.

I know you had to do some stuff, and I don't mind going all day at this stuff. but I want to get you back on here for sure. I got a lot out of it. I want to just ask a couple more things. Sure. Number one, do you have any good books? You've already shared one. Trust me, I'm lying.

And what are some of the other books that you'd recommend our listeners read? Sure. I think I can only speak to really ones connected to tech startups and technology. So I might be a little bit biased in that perspective, but one that just connects to general business for people that are, maybe you have a successful business right now and you've got a little bit of extra cash and you want to apply it into something else. A really great place to start with is Zero to One

by Peter Thiel. And I think that there's been no better book written in the last decade on what a successful business does to become successful than Zero to One by Peter Thiel. And then if you actually want to execute on doing it, you talked about minimum viable product. I think that Eric Ries' book on lean startup, it's a great book to read if you just really want to, and if it doesn't cost you that much to fail, then eventually you'll succeed. So Eric Ries' Lean Startup will teach you a lot connected to that. Outside of that, I think those are the two best books that I would really start with. And then if you really want to get into PR in a big way, and it's a fun book to read, is Ryan Holiday's Trust Me, I'm Lying. It's a great book because it's almost kind of autobiographical. He's got really great stories in it. Yeah, it was a great, I think I read both of them, but they're very similar if

I remember right. So what's one thing that we might have not talked about or spoke of in the podcast that you really want to mention? Well, first tell us, if somebody wants to get ahold of you, listen to the podcast, are really interested in getting involved with staff.com or possibly just getting that metadata and the predictive analysis on your time doctor, how do they get more of you? Where do they connect with you? What's the best place to get ahold of you? They can connect with me on email, actually, just liamatstaff.com. That's pretty easy. And then if they are interested in trying out either of the products, they both have trials on them so you can try them completely for free you just go to timedoctor.com and staff.com to

be able to check them out perfect and was there anything that obviously i'm sure there's a million things we left out because we only had an hour but is there anything that you wanted to just mention at the end here to kind of close us out? I love Phoenix. So nice. Yeah. If you love Phoenix and you need to come visit, what part of town are you in? I'm actually in Canada. Uh,

Canada because the A's and I'm from Michigan. So I do it a little, I do it a little bit too, you know? Yeah. But, uh, Scottsdale is great.

I spent a month or two out there and I just love the dry weather. It's very, very hot, but I don't get exposed to that level of dry weather. And I thought it was a really interesting place. So I always try to get back. Let me just, I'll break it down for you. I'll give you my elevator one minute pitch on Arizona. Number one, yes. Five months out of the year, you're roasting. That's the time to travel. It's a dry heat. I know you hear that, but the air conditioning works good. Number two, you're right next to Flagstaff.

You want to go up into the mountains, get the cool air. Press, get Flagstaff. Sedona's amazing. You want to meditate, find yourself, go to Sedona. Number three, you're four and a half hours from Vegas. You're four and a half hours from San Diego. So that kicks butt. Plus, Scottsdale just has so many fun things now.

They got the butterfly park. They got the water parks going up everywhere. They got amusement parks going up. They got, I'll tell you what, they're investing so much money in this area. I just am so glad I made it my home. And I definitely like to travel. I got a lot of trips coming up, but I love coming back. Everything's on a grid. Everything is a square mile. It's a pattern.

There's a loop. There's a loop 101, loop 202. There's a loop 303. There's all these different things that get you around. And if I got to go two miles, I jump on the freeway. And I love that because California is a cluster of just traffic. Phoenix might get that way, but if you're ever out here, and I'm going to communicate with you in the future for sure, I was really intrigued by this conversation. So I appreciate you having me on, or vice versa, you coming on to the podcast.

And I've got so many good notes and so many things. I'll continue to communicate with you in the future. And like I said, thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having me. Hey guys, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to the podcast. And I wanted to talk real quick about the new book I have coming out in November. It's called The Home Service Millionaire.

And I discuss everything it takes to hire the right people, train your salespeople, how to get tax breaks. It talks about how to sell your company for the most amount of money. We've got a lot of great contributorships coming on. Everybody from Paul Akers about how to go lean to how you do sales from enterprise,

how to get the best write-offs in the industry and save a ton on taxes and actually make your company look more professional. I got the CEO of Service Titan. I got the CEO of Valpak. We've got great people on here that know everything there is to know about marketing and Google. And there's basically no secrets we left out of this book. Literally, there's people that have read it so far say, I cannot believe you're giving all this information away. And the reason I did that is, I just feel like you guys could just take each one of these gold nuggets and run with them.

I mean, the ultimate goal of the book is to make sure that everybody is successful and makes money. If I could contribute to your lives, then that would be amazing. And I feel like it's the least I can do. And I really appreciate listening to the podcast. I hope you enjoy the book. Go to Home Service Millionaire. That's homeservicemillionaire.com and pre-order your book today. Thank you.