The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler - 344: Sammy "The Bull" Gravano - Mafia Hitman

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

My HoneyDew this week is American former mobster, Sammy “The Bull” Gravano! Sammy joins me this week to Highlight the Lowlights of rising to the position of underboss in the Gambino crime family of New York City before ultimately becoming a government witness. Sammy talks about becoming a made-man and shares one of the best mafia love stories you’ll ever hear! SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE and watch full episodes of The Dew every toozdee! https://youtube.com/@rsickler SUBSCRIBE TO MY PATREON - The HoneyDew with Y’all, where I Highlight the Lowlights with Y’all! Get audio and video of The HoneyDew a day early, ad-free at no additional cost! It’s only $5/month! AND we just added a second tier. For a total of $8/month, you get everything from the first tier, PLUS The Wayback a day early, ad-free AND censor free AND extra bonus content you won't see anywhere else! http://patreon.com/RyanSickler What’s your story?? Submit at [e-mail] Get Your HoneyDew Gear Today! https://shop.ryansickler.com/ Ringtones Are Available Now! https://www.apple.com/itunes/ http://ryansickler.com/ https://thehoneydewpodcast.com/ SUBSCRIBE TO THE CRABFEAST PODCAST https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-crabfeast-with-ryan-sickler-and-jay-larson/id1452403187

The Honeydew with Ryan Sickler. Welcome back to the honeydew y'all. We're over here doing it in the night pan studios. I'm Ryan Sickler, Ryan sickler.com, Ryan sickler on all your social media. Starting this episode like I start them all by saying thank you Thank you for supporting this show. Thank you for supporting this channel If you got to have more and you got to have the patreon, it's this show It's the honey do with y'all and y'all have the wildest stories on the internet. I promise you

It's the craziest show on patreon It's five bucks a month and if you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard Please submit it to honey doupodcast.gmail.com. All right. As to biz, you guys know, we do here, we highlight the low lights. I always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. I am very excited to have this guest here with me today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Sammy the Booger. Salvatore, let me say Salvatore.

Salvatore, Sammy the Bull. Thank you very much for being here. My pleasure. Let me promote your stuff here real quick. You can follow, you good going by Sammy? Yeah, sure. Follow Sammy at official Sammy the Bull on Instagram and YouTube.

That's where you can follow him, keep up with him. So, as I said, I do my little research online and you never know what's true, but your son's here. And he came over and he said, no, this is accurate. So you're born Salvatore Gravano, March 12th, 1945 on March 8th, you're a Pisces. And you're an American former mobster who rose to the position of underboss in the Gambino crime family of New York City before becoming a government witness. And as the underboss, you played a major role in prosecuting John Gotti, the crime

family's boss, by agreeing to testify as a government witness against him and other mobsters in a deal. And as part of the agreement, you confessed to your involvement in at least 19 murders. It's true. It's all true. And you're 80 now. in at least 19 murders. It's true. It's all true. And you're 80 now. I'm 80, yes.

You look fantastic. For the life you've led too, I mean. I'm 80 going on 60. You got fired. Mentally, I feel 60. Good for you. All right, I sat down last night and I came up with some questions I'd like to ask you

and I'm gonna jump into it, because you're 80 now. I wanna ask you questions going back. So what's the one moment from your childhood that you think made the actual killer in you possible? I think it's the first hit I did with Joe Colucci. I was with the Colombo family. I did that hit. How old are you at that time?

You a teenager? No, not a teenager. I was in my twenties. I don't remember what year it was to give you my exact age, but I was young. I got out of the military in 1966 and I made that hit. I hooked up with the Colombo family

and I was given the hit. That was my first hit. Now, do they tell you anything or they just tell you this is what you're going to do? Does it, do they give you a backstory? Like this is who this person is and this is why, or is it, hey, this is the job, go do this? Yeah, sometimes they give you a job, go do this? Yeah.

Sometimes they give you a backstory. Sometimes they just give you the hit and you got to do it. So it's immaterial. But, uh, on the first hit, they gave me a backstory and, um, and I went out and did it. And you say you were confused after? Well, I was stunned how, you know, I saw movies about a guy the first time he's ever killed anybody and he was all nervous and all screwed up and stuff like that. So I thought that would happen to me.

I thought that was normal. When I did the hit, I killed a guy in a car. And after we were done, we dumped the body. I mean, I shot him in the head. When I shot him in the head, the song was playing, the Beatles songs, Let it Be on the radio. No, his radio?

No, it was our car. Okay. And I shot him in the radio. No, his radio? No, it was our car. Okay. And I shot him in the head. He didn't move. And I was confused what to do, and I shot him again. And then his body slid over to the passenger side window. And we went from Brooklyn to, you know, Queens. And that's where we dumped the body.

I got out, I picked him up, I pulled him out of the car, I threw him on the grass. I got back in the car, opened the window, I shot him three more times. So I shot him already twice in the head and three times in the body. I got rid of the gun, cleaned up the car, did everything I had to do. The next day, I went home that night. I took a shower waiting for all this stuff to happen to me. And nothing happened. I went to bed. You slept.

Slept like a baby. You did. Yeah. That's all I want to ask. You slept. Did you eat a meal? Did you eat after that? No. When's the first time you eat a meal? Did you eat after that? No. When's the first time you had a regular meal after your first job? The next day. You did. And you were okay? You were hungry? You woke up fine? Listen, when I woke up, there was a couple of girls in the apartment.

I was living with a few guys and everybody was talking and they said, Oh my God, Joe Carlucci got killed last night and his body was found in Queens, in the neighborhood. And I said, it's in the newspaper? Yeah. Do they know who did it? And she says, no.

Well, they're investigating it, but they don't know who did it yet. And they all left and I took my shower and I went down and I almost felt like I had an out of body moment. It felt like I was way up in the air looking down at all these kids talking on the corner and stuff like that. And it's like I was watching and listening and I wasn't there until somebody touched my arm and said, uh, Shorty's going to come and pick us up. And, um, I went down and seen, uh, come my persico.

Come my personal and when I saw him, the guy was with me, Tommy Sparrow in the car. He explained that he was Shorty's nephew and I explained what happened. And he congratulated me, kissed me on the cheek, did a great job. He said, you get rid of the gun. I said, yeah, I threw it in the ocean already. And he says, you clean the car. I said, yeah, it's rooted in the ocean already. And he says, you

clean the car. I said, yes. Wow. We're rags. And I did certain things. He said, good, get rid of the car, burn it. It's always DNA. If they can find, burn the car. So I didn't know about all that stuff. I did it. So that's another question I wanted to ask you by your, listen, your job's your job, by your job with the cleanup and all that stuff, your level, what do you say, okay, this is acceptable? You understand what I'm asking? Like when you're finished a job and you clean up, you go, okay, we're done now. What is it? What does a good job done mean to you? I know the job job, but what about that cleanup? What when it's

good, like when you're comfortable saying, all right, we can leave now. Well, when the body is gone, the gun is gone. Everything is cleaned up. I tell whoever was there, give me all your clothes, shirt, pants, shoes, socks, underwear, everything that was there. And we're going to get rid of it, go buy new stuff. And I make sure of every detail is taken care of and done. Now I relax a little bit. And is that a mental list you always had?

Oh, yeah. Well, I didn't always have it, but I had it. But let me explain going back to the first thing after I was kissed and I come in person call, I did a great job in this. Now, the other thing when I walked away and left, I said, well, when I was taking a shower, I didn't feel anything. When I went to bed, I slept like a baby. The next morning when I got up, I went out, I had that out of body experience and all of this stuff. And then I thought after the meeting, what call my personal, I have to be a natural born killer.

I had no remorse, I had no feelings, I had no anything, nothing. I did what I was supposed to do as a soldier in Kosovo. I knew the reasons, the reasons were good. He broke rules, he did stupid shit, really stupid shit. And that bothered me a little bit. broke rules, he did stupid shit, really stupid shit. And that bothered me a little bit. I went to his funeral as well.

You did. So what you're saying it bothered you that it didn't bother you. Yes. Interesting. I didn't understand myself. I said, why didn't I go through these things and everything? And I remember when I went to the coffin, I paid my respects and I turned

around and I looked at the family and the family was crying and that bothered me. The damage I did to the family who were alive, not him. So, and I kind of knew that I was in the mafia and that I was comfortable in this area, in this doing hits. I always knew even as a kid growing up, if you're going to be in the mafia, you'll be doing hits. That was just the neighborhood you grew up, it was just part of the life. So I knew that, but I didn't know that I would be comfortable with it

and I would be good at it. Years later, guys would turn around and say, if Sammy's got your head, you're dead. Because I was a thinker, I was a planner. If I had your head, I would get to know you better than you know yourself. In person? Or all of them? I would come here. When he make you as an example, I would come here. I would say, okay, he comes here on Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And he's here from such and such a time.

And you're just casing it outside? I watch. Yeah. I know where you live. I know who your wife is. I know who your kids are, what schools they go to. I know you got a girlfriend that you go see every Tuesday. I know where she lives. I know what time you go see her every Tuesday.

I get all the facts, everything about you. How long would you say that would take you? Could be take a couple of weeks. Days, you? Could be take a couple of weeks. Weeks? It could take a couple of weeks, but at the end of a couple of weeks, I know exactly where I'm going to kill. Where I'm protected. My crew who's with me is protected.

And then I make my move and you don't stand a chance. I cause every back door, everything you have is closed. Was there ever a job that you stalled on or delayed or was there ever one where you're like, ah, I don't want to, not that you don't want to because you're a soldier, but like maybe this one is one that you'd rather not do. Oh, there's a couple of times that I, you know, I had a Johnny Keys hit was a major hit in Philadelphia. There was a war. Angelo Bruno was the boss of a family. He was killed. There was two sides.

Johnny Keys had one side. He was Angelo Bruno's cousin. He had 20, 30 guys with him all the time. They were in a war. He had 50 hits under his belt. He was an old timer. And then there was the other side. The commission backed the other side to kill Johnny Keys.

They couldn't do it. They're calling it a mission impossible hit. It was well guarded, very shrewd, and I was given that hit. I was sitting in the club with Tato playing cards. This is how it started. And Tato says, somebody take his cards, take his hand. Sammy, come with me, drive me to the boss's house. And I did. Somebody saw two made guys meeting with Johnny Keys in a restaurant. And they went back to the commission

and they told them Paul Castellano is probably double banging everybody. He's back in the other side. His men are meeting with him and they can't kill him. Now the two guys were with Tano. They were made guys from Jersey, but they were with Tano. That's how Tano got called. So he said, well, bring Nikki Russo and pal Joey in to another meeting.

I want to talk to them. Because when I walked into the commission, I got blamed for backing the wrong side. And I denied it. And they said, well, if your guys could meet with him and you don't know nothing about it, now you do, then you have the contract. And he was pissed. He didn't want this contract. So the second time I went back with Tato and Nikki Russo and pal Joey, who bumped into him,

Paul was ripping into them. You know there's a war, what the fuck you're meeting with him for? And they were, listen, we know there's a war. we didn't talk to him, we know him for years, we were just bullshitting in the restaurant. We didn't do anything. Well, we have the contract now. He looked over Tato's shoulder. He looked at me, I was only a driver. I was a made guy already. I was actually an acting captain because a year after I got made in 1976, a year later, I was a made guy already. I was actually an acting captain. Cause a year after I got made in 1976, a year later I was an acting captain. He looked over Tano's shoulder and he said, Sammy, could you get this done? Now I knew the stories about the war,

about everything I knew about this Johnny Keys, his reputation, how many guys he had around him. I was gonna say how protected he was. How protected he was. And I know they were calling it the impossible hit, Mission Impossible. Sounded like fucking one of the movies. Yeah, had people tried before?

Yeah. They had. They can't get them. So he says, I'm gonna give you the hit, could you get it done? I was shocked a little bit. I was just the driver. And I looked at him and I says, probably. I mean, I don't know the area around there.

I don't know what he looks like. But I could work on it. And he said to Nikki and Joey, you're on this hit with him. You do everything he tells you to do. Get this fucking thing done. And I went back, I grabbed my crew, I talked to my crew, I told them the situation we were in, and I brought Nikki and Joey in with my crew, talking to them.

And it really was a mission impossible type of thing. Long story short, I got it done. I made meetings with him. In the meetings, I told pal Joey and Nikki Russo, mainly Nikki Russo, go to him and tell him that Paul Castellano wants to send this guy, Sammy, don't say Sammy DeBolt, Sammy. And he just got made, use these words. He's a jerk off, no balls type of guy. Just got made.

The reason Paul uses him is he brings messages back and forth precisely. He's very good at that. I want to instill that in his brain. They did that. They made an appointment with him, with me. My guys, everybody says, Sammy, you're going to go to this fucking place

and you're going to meet with him? No, he's got to, and all me and guys, I said, I know, but I want to meet him. I've got to know him. I got to find out. And I went to the meeting when I got there, they obviously searched me, Nicky and Joey, they're his friend. He let them in, too.

And. They were feeling every part of my body banging me around a little bit. And you know, I'm a punk, I'm a jerk off, I'm this, I'm that. So I think they were elbowing me and pushing and just wanted to see a reaction from me. And I knew if I lost my temper, they would say, I thought he's a punk. All of a sudden he's a tough guy. So I knew I just had to take it and I acted scared.

And guys, I was sitting here, what are you doing? Why would you do that? And I went in and I sat with him and I met with him. There's a few times I went back on a second meeting and everybody said, no, don't do it. This guy is cunning. Nikki Russo told me since then, if he thinks for one second that you're bullshitting him or lying to him, you're going to be in the basement, they're going to torture you to find out the truth, and they're going to kill you.

I understand. Make the appointment. Tato was my captain. He hugged me a lot stronger than he normally hugged me. Kissed me on the cheek. And when we pulled away, I noticed a tear coming right down his face. He thought I was gonna be killed. Yeah, he thought that's the last time he's seeing your ass. Yeah. But I went to that meeting, I survived that meeting, I gave him a whole cock-a-boo story, how Paul wanted to back him, we're gonna have to have a meeting, we're gonna have to do this, that, and the other thing. While I'm talking to my son, Mike, this was finger near his mouth,

and he was looking up in the air. He was thinking I had to break his thought. So I said, John, I want to be honest with you. I'm so scared. I can't even talk. My mouth is so dry. Could I get something to drink? Looked at me. He turned around to his guys, get him some fucking water. And I got water. And he says,

this is heavy shit, isn't it kid? Yeah, bring your messages back and forth. Yes, to me it's very heavy. You know, I'm being honest. I'm nervous. These guys were banging me around at the door, you know. He says, well, you're involved in heavy shit. You're everything they told me.

Now I told them to tell them I'm a punk, I'm all this shit. So he bought it. But the most important thing is he wasn't thinking anymore and he was talking to me like what I am and all this other bullshit. I broke his thought. That's what was important to me. Then I told him, I think you're going to like this part. There's going to be a meeting between you and Paul. And again, you know, family is going to want you to win the war, you to become the boss out here and beyond the commission. He's going to take you back. He's going to give you guys shooters, guns, money, whatever it takes. He's going to give you guys shooters, guns, money, whatever it takes. I said, I think you don't like this part. You pick the place.

Place that you're comfortable, you're safe, Paul is safe. Tommy Boulani is his driver. You know that. He'll be there. I think I'll be there because I'm going to take you there. Nicky Russo and pal Joey will also be there. They're your friends. And you're going to have all this information. You say, great. That's great. I have a golf course. There's armed guards at the gate to get in and out. I am a member of that. So is Nikki Russo. That sounds good. Then in the clubhouse, you and Paul will meet.

We'll probably be sitting on the side. One thing, no guns. None of these guys, no guns, no nothing at this meeting. Tell him, yeah, that's the place. And he smiled. I smiled. He got what he wanted. Being safe in the golf club. I smiled because that's where I'm going to kill him. When I was walking out, that big guy hit me with an elbow again in my side, almost took the fucking wind out of me. I looked at him and I smiled. And he says, all right, tough guy. I was smiling. In my head, I said, I hope you can come to this meeting. Because I'm going to kill him too.

But anyway, the meetings happened. And I snatched him. I was in a van with him for 13 hours. Oh, you got him like that. And I snatched him. I was in a van with him for 13 hours. Oh, you got him like that. I snatched him from the golf course. When we got out, we were walking, there was a van. In the van was my crew, automatic weapons, pistols,

everything. And they knew I was in good shape when I was young, real strong. I was going to start a step. He's one little bit ahead of me. I was going to grab him in a bear hug. And I told my guys, as soon as you see that, that fucking door in the van opens up and you guys come out like a fucking SWAT team. Pick him up off his fucking feet.

We bring him in the van. We get the fuck out of this golf course. We'll kill him on the road and dump him. That's just what we did. When I grabbed him, the door opened up. They came flying out. He tried to kick his way out. He was stuck. He lied. He did have a gun. But he couldn't get it out. We got him in the van. We got the gun away from him. And we started driving back. And me and him, we had ties, his legs,

ankles were tied together, his wrists were tied together. He sat there. And he looked at me and he said, I had a driver, a guy in a passenger seat, a guy in a love seat, what they call it, a love seat or whatever it is, and I'm in the back, talking. He says, a punk, a bitch, a jerk off.

Five fucking families. And the family in Philadelphia couldn't have me sitting in this fucking van. You're a hit guy. I said, yes, I am. He said, are you fucking up a little bit? Okay, how am I fucking up? He said, we're on the road. The windows in the back of the van are open.

These truck drivers who pass by, they have the CBs and whatever. They'll see in here, they'll see me tied up, CBs and whatever, they'll see in here, they'll see me tied up, they'll see you, they'll see these other guys. They'll call the police, you get caught. I looked at the back of the van out the window. I said, he's right, get a rag or something, get some rags, cover those windows. But I thought to myself, why the fuck would he help me doing a hit? On himself. On himself.

Yeah. But he did. While we were going, he said, Sammy, I have a condition. I got pills in my pocket. Take one of them out, put one under my tongue every five minutes. I have a heart condition. What kind of pills are they? Nitroglycerin. I went in, I took them out, it was nitroglycerin. I took one out, I put it in his tongue. Again, I asked myself, he's worried about dying of a heart attack? He knows he's going to die. He could go out like this right now. Yeah. Exactly. So anyway, and we're talking

like we're buddies from years ago. from years ago. And we were on the highway going back to New York, Staten Island, we were gonna go bring them back. You're just riding up 95 with the dude in the back of the van? Yeah. Jesus Christ, okay. Yeah, so while we were driving,

Okay. Yeah. So, while we were driving, pal Joey says, Oh my God. I said, what's the matter? He went like this and he says, I got the keys to the fucking car. And Nikki Russo's over there in that parking lot.

Stop, pull over. We pull over. I opened the door, get out. Go back there, say, I mean, pull over. We pull over. I opened the door, get out. Go back there. I don't give a fuck how far it is. Start running and get back there. Tell me if Nikki's okay and the car is out of there and what happens. I'm not going to whack them before that.

I know what the fuck is going on. I did have a gun too, but I had it wrapped and under the front seat, way under, but it's there. So if they saw this car and put two and two together, there's my gun with my prints all over it. Now this guy winds up dead. I'm dead. Go do that. He got out. That's why I'm with him so long. I'm waiting for a fucking answer. I see. So all kinds of things come up while we're talking. And he says, extremely wealthy guy. I can make you very wealthy. I said, John, in our conversation, you said this is about Kozunosh. You didn't want the cops to interfere. I'm starting to build a tremendous respect for you. This is Kozunri, like you said. There's no money in the fucking

world you can give me. I'm a thousand percent Gozlenostri. I don't give a fuck about money or nothing else. I have a job. I don't have the actual order to kill you yet. That's why you're alive. I'm waiting on that. I'm not waiting on that. I'm waiting on the car to find out what the fuck is going on. But I hate feeding this bullshit story as well. And he takes it, hey, that's no other choice. What's the difference? So we're coming in and we're driving and we come to a toll booth and I said, listen, John, what I'm gonna do is put my hand over your mouth. I'm gonna push you up against the side of the van. I have one or two of these guys come and we're gonna just pin you to the side of the van. He said, you don't have to

do that, Sammy. Again, fuck the cops. This has got nothing to do with cops. This is us, cause it all strong. That's blown me away. I mean, is that fucking with you a little bit at the time too? No, no. Like this guy's OG to the core. Oh, to the core. So I said, well, I'm sorry, but I got to do it.

We push him up there, no struggle, no push, no nothing, no attempt whatsoever. And we go back to sitting in positions. And we're talking about things and he says, Sammy, I'd like to ask you for a favor. Whatever it is, tell me whatever you want. whatever it is, tell me whatever you want. If it's not you who pulls the trigger, make sure the guy is a friend of ours, meaning a mate guy. I wanna die that way. You got it. He says, and don't let me be found with my shoes on.

What's that about? I'm going to tell you. He says, and I said, all right, John, but why would you want that? He said, Sammy, my wife knows that who I am. My name is in the paper. She knows about the war. She reads and she knows. She's scared to death.

And I always tell her, don't worry about it. I will die at home with my shoes on, not in the street, don't worry about it. So you're kind of sending her a message when you found that way, that you were thinking of sending her a message when you found that way that you were thinking of her. Yes. He's in his 60s.

She's in her 60s. To me, it was like a fucking love story now. You got it. We keep going and conversation goes by and he tells me some other stuff and I'm thinking, oh, he tells me this, he says, I know you're not a punk and I know you're not afraid and I know you're not afraid. And I know you're very smart. Want to ask you a question. When you were scared in the restaurant where we were, it was a private restaurant, his place, a pizzeria type of thing, not a big restaurant. Nobody was there, but his people was closed. He said, I was thinking for a while and you said you were scared.

You couldn't talk, your mouth was dry, you wanted water. Were you breaking my thought? Damn, he remembered and called it, huh? So I said, yes, I did. He started talking to me a while about things, some crazy shit and things he was asking me and I'm saying to myself. I see breaking my thought. Do I have a surprise coming. But I didn't. We got into Staten Island. We pulled into a garage that was closed. The alleyway had all pebbles and stones. There was a crush shop in the

back of the yard. Louis Molito, my guy, knew the guy, so we had access. That's where we pulled into that long driveway. And I made guys get away. And I made guys go and get coffee, donuts, or whatever he wanted. I loosened the things on his wrists and his ankles. I told my guys I want to treat him with total fucking respect. And they I don't I didn't have to push them, they respected him. He was the epitome of our life. I'm sitting here, so, yeah, even though even where it's ending for him, it's fucked the cops, I don't need to save my life. This is the life I chose. And he wants to die a certain way. Mm hmm.

But he knows he's going to die in his will. He's not crying. No. He's not begging for his life. No. None of that. He taught me more about dying than goes in usher than anybody has ever. But we're there and for a long time and we're talking. Now, when the guys

got out of the van and went to this place, this coffee shop, I told them, when you come back and you're walking, I can hear you coming in, you're walking under pebbles. When you come to the back of the van, go like this. I'll know it's you. So he's sitting on the floor, I'm sitting on the driver's side, crooked, and I'm talking to him. And I got a.357 Magnum on my lap. I hear the pebble, somebody's coming in. I put the gun up by the passenger window. No knock on the back. I'm ready to go.

He whispers to me, if it's a cop, shoot him in the fucking face before you kill me. Before you kill me, I want to. He wants to witness this. He wants to see it before he goes. I'm blown away. That's crazy. I'm blown away.

That's as mafia as it gets right there. Absolutely. And then my guys come and say, I said, get out of the van. It was your guys? Somebody else. They don't fucking listen. First of all, I blessed. I said, you out of the van. It was your guys? Somebody else. Yeah. They don't fucking listen.

First of all, I blessed. I said, you know, I could have shot you right in the face. I told you to tap on the fucking thing. You didn't tap on it. How the fuck am I supposed to know? All right, Sam, I forgot. All right. All right.

So I go out. They want to talk to me. I says, go in and sit with them and don't fuck with them. And I'll be right back. And I got out and I was talking to them. They said, Sammy, they got the car. Nicky Russo, they get in trouble. He's saying that cops came. When we pulled out, we pulled out so hard, we skid, we went on the grass, off the road a little bit, back to the road. The thing was down. I told them to crash it. As we crashed the gate, the truck went sideways. I could see the guards taking out guns, and we banged

into the fucking little boot that they stay in. And they were ducking in. And they didn't ... Cops came, people, there was witnesses, they thought it was a fight, there was... Nobody said nothing. They didn't even know the car. They never bothered with it. They didn't know who Ricky Russo was. He was just another guy. He says, I saw it. I don't know. It's a truck. I think it was a fight. So everything was safe. The car was gone. The gun, they got my gun. Everything was going to happen. In my conversations, I had told him that I didn't have permission to kill him. I just had to grab him and bring him in. And I'm waiting on their decision, what they say.

So I know now everything is good and it's coming in. And Nikki Russo and Pal Joey are coming in with my gun and the car. So I says, all right, I went back in the van. I got the guys get out. Everybody get out. I said, John, I just got word on the phone. They told me to kill you.

I got to kill you. Okay, Sammy. Are you going to live up to your commitments? Absolutely. It'll be me or a friend of ours who's going to shoot you. You'll get hit. You've been in the life. You've got 50 hits on the about.

You know what time it is. You know what it's like. I got a 357 Magnum that's going to be used. You're going to get one shot in the head. You're never going to, you don't know what time it is. It's like the whole world blew up. It's you're gone. You know that. Yes, Andy. Okay, good. We're ready to go. I get the guys back in the car, Nicky and Joey, everybody. And I'm going to go to the dump. It's not far from this city dump.

It's a dirt road in there, old weeds this high all over the place. So we pull in and we stop in the dump. It's closed. And we're getting out. And I hear him, Sammy, Sammy. I turn around. Pal Joey's got his leg in his trying to drag him out. I said, Oh, get your fucking hands off him. What do you want to do? You want to wiggle your way out? Yes, leave him alone. God, he wiggles his way out. He says, what do you want?

I want you to follow me into the weeds. When we get to a spot, bend at the waist, you get hit in the back of the head, you'll never know, there's no rough stuff, there's no torture, There's no rough stuff. There's no torture. There's no any- Choking, yeah. Just a clean boom. Boom. Light switch.

And you're gone. Perfect, Sammy. If you were on my fucking side in this war, I would have won the war. Maybe so. But I'm not on either side. I'm on the orders. And I want to say I'm not happy about this.

He'll understand the life better than anybody I've ever talked to. And I'm stuck with it. And we start walking. And he's following into the woods. When we get to a spot, we stop. I said, I want to come here. Louis, Milito, you're going to pull the trigger. Here's the gun.

Come here. There's just, he understands this and people in Go Gosunosh understand have to be introduced to each other to recognize them. So I said, Louis, this is Johnny Keys. He's a captain in the Philadelphia mob, a man's man. Johnny, this is Louis Milito. He's a friend of ours, meaning a made man in the Gambino family, and he will pull the trigger. Thank you, Sammy. Bend that to waste, and it'll be quick.

Okay. Is that just so you fall? He's go down at the waste and he halfway down. He looks up at me and he says, Sammy, I'm glad it's you. Jesus. He is. I love you. Oh, God.

Loey. God. Yeah. A shot in the head. He goes down a couple more shots. It's over. We get in the van. We're all sick. Everybody likes this guy. My whole crew. How could you not like him? We leave. I tell the guys, clean this vein. Every inch of this fucking thing is scrubbed down. And all you guys, everything you're wearing today, shoes, socks, underwear, bring them home. Destroy them, turn them out, burn them, whatever. I don't ever want to see them again on your body or anywhere.

Make sure that's done. I'm eliminating it like it never happened. And the next day I get up and I go to meet my guy Taro. I pull up, He's standing outside. He has a newspaper roll. I go over to him and he says, Oh, my God, Sammy, you got it done.

Yeah. He says it's in the newspaper. Mobster from Philadelphia, heavyweight mobster from Philadelphia, found dead and sat down and dumped. And it's not good. He said, take this paper. heavyweight mobster from Philadelphia, found dead and sat in an island dump. He said, take this paper and go to Paul's house, go to every port. Are you going to come? I don't have to come. You go.

Okay. I get in the car and I go there. Knock on the door, ring the bell. The maid comes to the door. I go there. Knock on the door, ring the bell. The maid comes to the door, I get out. Paul's sitting at his table, which is far away. Not far, 20, 30 feet, whatever. 40 feet. He sees me coming. He jumps up.

He's running towards me. Grabs me, hugs me. Oh my God, Sammy, it's in the paper. You got it done. Looks at me. What's wrong? I'm not happy about it. I feel dirty.

Last night I killed the epitome of our life. Everything we're supposed to be, this guy was. I think we killed the wrong fucking guy. Wow, you said that. He said, Sammy, this was a commission hit and I'm your boss and I gave you the hit. It's as high as it gets. Anybody in your position right now would be on cloud nine. When I reported back to the commission, I had told them that you, Sammy the Bull, has got the hit. Every boss, every under boss and every consulier of every family is going to know you did this. We did it, but you did it personally.

I said, no disrespect, man, I don't give a fuck what they think. I really, I feel dirty. And Paul, let me tell you, last night I fell in love with this guy. He like went backwards a little bit. He said, what the fuck did you just say? I said, I fell in love with him. He is to me the epitome of our life. If I go to a doctor tomorrow and he says, you got cancer in two weeks to live, it wouldn't faze me in the fucking least. This guy taught me, cause I'm not sure like, I never understood.

He taught me how to die like a fucking man. Yeah. I love him. Yeah. He looked at me, he grabbed me, he hugged me again, kissed me on the face. He said, Sammy, you did a great job. It's a commission hit. It's an order from me.

You did it like a man's man. Don't change how you think. I love to hear what you just said. It's music to my ears. Don't change. He says, you want coffee? I said, no, Paul, no disrespect. I got my crew waiting.

They're all blown away by it too. They all fucking fall over, I think. But we're going to go back. So I left. That's the Johnny Keys story. It could be more detailed if we had time. That's an amazing story. But it's an amazing story. It's going to be a movie now. It should be. I mean. It's gonna be a movie. It's gotta be. It is. I'm talking with people in Hollywood. I'm working on two projects in Hollywood. One is the Johnny Keys movie

and one is a scripted show similar to the Sopranos story of my life. Guys that I've got in it working with me is Terry Winter, Nick Pelagi, JJ Saks, Aaron Kaplan, Antoine Bouguard, so black guys as director. Serious dude. Everything that Denzel Washington has done, he's been the director. So I got a monster team and I'm working on all that shit now.

You got a whole new crew. Yeah. Yes sir. And so that's what I'm doing. I changed my life to become a born again Christian. You did. In September, last September. This September will make a year. So I changed my life around a little bit. One of the craziest things that

when I'm talking about the Johnny Key story on your podcast. I had company. They left. I had to listen to the whole thing again while I was alone. I listened to the whole thing. Two days later, I grabbed it and had to listen to the whole thing again. This is a story that has to be told. This is a mafia story that has to be told. It's got everything.

It's got the love story aspect in it. It's got everything for God's sake. But listen to what he tells me. Listen to what he tells me. He says, do you know what you and Johnny Keys was? We were gangsters, the two of us. No. He said, you guys were samurai. The Japanese warriors, he said, they're more dangerous than you guys. But when they lose, they want to die with honor. That's what he wanted.

You gave him every fucking thing he wanted under the conditions, and that's what a samurai would do. Sometimes they'll bend down and you could chop their head off, or they'll stab themselves in the stomach. The toys were too fucking summarize. That's what this story is. That's a great story. So that's where I'm at now.

Can I ask you this? Have any of your victims ever showed up in your dreams? Any people ever come back? Has that guy ever come back and seen you in your dreams? Any people ever come back? Has that guy ever come back and seen you? He comes back to me so does he really in different ways when I'm telling the story. Sometimes I choke up thinking about it. Mm hmm. But. I think I'm on a morphine.

When things are going a certain way, I think about him. When things are going a certain way, I think about him. I want, I know whining about this ain't going right. I don't have enough money. I don't have this. I don't have that. And then I look at myself and say, look at the position he is. He was in. Dude's telling you to cover the window so that the truckers don't see it.

Take the pill. Don't worry about it. Take the pill. Don't worry. Move me over here. I want to be comfortable when I go. Don't let me die. That's also something.

He could have took the heart attack route and he didn't want to. He wanted to go out by the sword. He did. Live by the sword, die by the sword. That's fucking amazing. So I think Neepalaji was so smart to say that to me. And he said it to other people now. And he's right.

He was a samurai. And so was I, I guess. Yeah. I guess that won't be talked about with people because one's a mafia thing and one's a samurai. But the similarity is so crazy. And both of us and what Paul said, Tato, the tear coming down his face, thinking he'll never see me again. And Tato was not only my captain, I was an acting captain with him. I got made in 1976, I was 31 years old. The following year, Christmas time,

and I was 32, and we were all meeting together, just me and guys, Captain, him. And he says, I wanna have a drink with you guys, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, but I wanna make a little bit of a speech. So we all sat down. His son was made the same day I was made.

And there was old timers, Nikki and Joey Russo. I mean, Nikki Russo and Pal Joey and some old timers. So he said, I never had an acting captain, and Nicky Russo and Pal Joey and some old timers. So he said, I never had an acting captain, but if I go to jail or something happens to me, I wanna put an acting captain in now before we go away for the holidays. Everybody's got a drink, one ready to drink, one ready. And he says, as of today, my acting captain,

he looked at me, he says, Sammy DeBolt. A year later, I'm already an acting captain. I'm so fucking green, just beer made. And he's making me this. So I thought, you know, maybe his son or his old timers have been with him for years and years and years, but he made me. I thought some of the guys would be a little pissed off, but whatever it is, I didn't call it, he calls it. So months later,

I came into the club, couple of old timers were there. And they said, Samy, come outside with us. I went out and said, what's the problem? No, no problem. Just want to tell you that we know why Tato made you his acting captain. We understand it. It made you his acting captain. We understand it. It was a thousand percent right. You deserve it.

That was a tremendous compliment for me. I thought they were gonna be mad or pissed off. They weren't. They come to me all the time. And when I was in my own club, I would sit at the head of the table. My guys would all be around. Tato, after the Castellano hit, stepped down and I became a captain. And he wanted to meet with John Gotti, Frankie Uchico and stepped down as a captain. And they met with him and they approved it. He says, it's time for you guys to take over.

They said, you want to be with us, the administration directly with us? He said, no. The guy who takes over my position to become the captain, I would like it to be Sammy. And I want to be placed under him. I made him. He was my acting captain. Now he's going to be the captain.

I want him to take over my crew, my son, and me. So when we sat and ate, I would tell his son, go pick up your father and bring him. On the days we were gonna meet, have dinner, whatever. And I would sit here. But when he came, I would get up and I would let him sit here and I would sit on the side. I wanted's my man, period. So even when I cooperated and he made me,

he's supposed to hate me, but he never did. That's what I want to ask you. When you decided to cooperate, you have family, how do you deal with that anxiety? Oh, it was a nightmare. It had to be. It's been a nightmare till today. I want to add, you still worry today.

No, I don't worry about it. I have no worries about it at all. But there's people bare-mounting me all the fucking time. You're right, you know, shit. No, I don't worry about it. I'll tell you why. I don't worry. When I got into the life of my first hit. And I was in the life,

I lost my fear of the life because I adjusted myself even before I became a main guy that I'm in this life. 99% I will be killed or go to prison for the rest of my life. Once I adjusted to that fact, I wasn't scared. I'm still not. As a former mafia guy, when they come to you and tell you that if you cooperate, they'll help you. Do you believe that bullshit? You know what I mean? Like, are you like, I'm going to give you all this info and then they're going to be like, you know, God, God, he betrayed me.

And that's why I quit and walked away from the life. It's a long story. I'm not going to get into it. But I will say. When I did cooperate, they helped me, they stuck by me. They never lied to me. They never bullshitted me or tried to bullshitting me. Never. I lived up to my agreement. They lived up to their agreement. Till today, they're retired. Some of them are dead. but they give me a call on my birthday. Happy birthday, Sidney.

Do they? Yes. Till today, and they're retired, older men, older than I am. So, they've never lied to me, they've never betrayed me. They've done anything. And I don't hang with them and do anything, but like I said, on holidays, any holiday, I'll always get a message or, how you feeling buddy? Stuff like that.

And they're not even in the FBI anymore. They're gone. Were you in officially witness protection at first? No. Well, how does that work? I went in that for eight months. Okay. I wasn't going in. I had money. I had, I don't want. And what did they really do? Just move you somewhere and you become somebody else on paper? Is that really what they do? Yeah. Yeah. And you said no. No, I don't want it. But I got a call from people in Washington, got in touch with them. They said, Sammy, the people I was working with, that I trusted. So they gave me a call and they said, listen, the government wants you to join the program. You're going to make them look like shit.

Give them something so they can pound their chest. You got sentenced on 19 murders. You got five years, bro. We did the right thing with you. I said, you did. And here's what I'll do. I'll tell them, yes, you could change my name. You could do whatever the fuck you want with me. I'll give you one year, pound your chest, do whatever the fuck you want. At the end of one year, I'm going to die with the name my father gave me. I'm going to change my name back to that. Our deal is over, I'll shake your hand, goodbye. I don't need your protection, I don't need nothing. And that's exactly what I did. Is that right? Yes. And I didn't even last a year because

while I was away, I was in Colorado, I met some woman, fake name, all that bullshit. She found out, she recognized that something was said in the television, she knew who I was. And they came to me and they said, Sammy, we have, she knows, and according to the program, you got to start over. I said, I'm not starting over. I gave you, I promise you a year, I'm in the program eight months. I'm not starting over. You have to ask the rules. I don't give a fuck about your rules. We have an agreement, one year. And he says, well, then you got to sign up.

Give me the papers and I'll sign up. Okay, they gave me the papers. I signed the papers, I signed out. I went back to Arizona and I changed my name from Jimmy Moran was my bullshit name, my new name. Jimmy Moran was your name, yes. And I went back to Salvatore Brown. Currently, right after that, once I quit the program.

I don't need your help, your money, your protection. I don't need anything. And did anyone ever come for you after that? Once. I'm sure at least once, right? Once. But you were ready. Yeah.

Did you literally see it coming? Did you know it? Did you? I could smell it. Yeah. I'm a hit guy. Yeah, I was gonna say, you're the guy. I mean, I know when it's coming or what's going on.

I never put myself, for a long time, I'm older now, I don't even give a fuck no more. And I'm not, I don't think I'm vulnerable anymore. But I don't worry about those things. And that's another thing I think about when I worry about something is Johnny Keys. What's going to happen is going to happen. If it happens, when it happens, it's a great way to end the story. It's going to end anyway, whether it's a heart attack,

a car crash, old age. I'm going anyway. So I made it this far, maybe I can give a fuck less, but I'm not nitty. When I go out and I sit and sit with my back a certain way, I try to look at the door. If somebody's coming in or something I like or don't like. If I got an appointment, I'm usually 15 minutes early. I told Kirsten, I was like, you guys are early. I just I just I'm the same way.. I told Kirsten, I was like, these guys are early. I just, I just. I'm the same way still.

I sit with my back. I don't like not seeing the door. Yeah, I want to see it coming. Mm-hmm, me too. All right, I have one more question for you and then we're gonna wrap this up. Great. How many lives do you think in your line of work,

what you had to do, how many lives do you think you actually saved by doing what you needed to do? You understand what I'm asking? I know that. I knew you were going to ask that when you said, I knew that. Question is coming. Hundreds, hundreds.

There, talk about me. I didn't kill 19 people. I'm involved in 18 murders. Yeah, I hear you. The legend. Yeah. How many fucking hits is John Garnier on? 40?

Is that right? Easy, he was the boss. He's giving orders like he was going out of style. You know, part of my hits were on orders from him. So, you know, and everybody in that life, hundreds, hundreds, because guys walked away, you know, after I flipped, there were so many people who followed what I did. When I was still, when I got sentenced to the five years that I said on the first case cuz I Cooperated and it hit the newspapers. See I'm you got five years for 19 murders. I

Still had five years. You got to do about 52 months. Okay When I was getting sent said it hit the papers. I had about 48 months in Okay, so I had another four months to go. I see. So I went back to the prison I was in. It was a witness unit prison. And- Was that in New York? No, it was out of New York.

It was in Arizona. But I went back and the unit manager called me and he says, congratulations, you got four more months to go. I said, yeah. He said, Sammy, don't get into arguments or anything. I said, why would I get into arguments? He says, there's a lot of guys bullshitting about you getting a break like that. They're all complaining because they got more time for less of a crime or whatever. I said, fuck them. That's jealousy, envy, fuck them. I don't care. Don't worry about it. Thank you for telling me. So I was coming in, my friends came today,

said, I'm unbelievable. I was walking down the stairs and a whole bunch of other guys, black guys, Hispanic guys, people. I don't know who said what. So they said, you got five years, one guy told me, for 19 fucking bodies. I said, yeah, you know the fucked up part about this? They will stop. What? If I would have killed 40 drug dealers, I would have did maybe two years and got awards for it. I should have fucking known better. Guys were saying, go fuck yourself. It was time to break balls. That's great, I love it.

Yeah. I'm gonna ask you a question off the mic. I'll ask you, we can edit this out if you want to. The neighbor that accidentally backed over Gotti's kid on the bike. Yeah. What happened to that guy? Oh, he was killed. Yeah. But what happened to that guy? I've heard this story. I've heard. Yeah, I've heard that on his deathbed, they said to Gotti,

what happened to that? And he said, I don't know what you're talking about. They wanted to give the family closure and the guy's just gone. I mean, we all know what happened to him, but he's gone. He's Jimmy Hoffa. Yeah. Yeah. So listen, when his son got hit by a car, I went to him, who was sick of thing as a kid. And it was accidental to the guy accidentally backed over. Yeah. Yeah. Horrible by accident. He's driving a mini bike at night.

The guy's coming home and you see him. He hits him. He's dead. So. I saw him and I said, you're hanging in the door. It was an accident. He said, that's what I wanted to do. He said, but my wife is fucking driving me crazy. You're a tough guy. He killed our son.

She's driving me crazy. Disregard it. I mean, she's probably having a hard time with it. Disregard it. I mean, she's probably having a hard time with it. Disregard it. And he said, no, Sammy, I got to do this. I said, bro, listen to me. I'm your brother. Don't do this. People love you. You do this, they're going to hate you. The guy's a legitimate guy. He's an accident. It was an accident. He came to your house to apologize, crying like a baby.

Your wife was hitting him with a bat. You had to chase him. Don't hurt him, though. Take a piss. He went to Florida with his wife and whoever he talked to got rid of him. I don't know, so I'm not going to talk about who did what. I know one thing, I would not take part in it. Yeah. Because I thought not so much that I cared about the guy, but I cared about him. You're making a tremendous fucking mistake.

You're right. I don't want to apologize. The world loved Teflon Don. They loved him at the time. Right. Now, when this comes out, this is a horrible state. Now, I'll give you real quick. I went to Angelo Reggiero's wake. I was at the wake. And my brother Loretta, the main guy, he said, Sammy, call your sister. I said, for what?

I'm at the funeral, what's going on? Something with your son got hit by a car. My son? Yeah. I don't know what's going on, but she's crying. She's just got a call up. I called her up. I said, Freddy, my son got hit by a car.

Same thing, driving a minibike and I had a minibike on the farm. I brought it home. Their kids took it out and he got, he had a girl in behind him and got hit by a car. He was in the hospital, broken ankle or leg. He was busted up. He wasn't dead. He was busted up. And my sister gets on the phone I said, Franny, what happened? Jordan, boom, and she just bust out crying. I said, oh my God, is he dead? Sammy, please save me. And she hangs up on me.

Oh my God. I think my son is dead. I go back in the funeral parlor, I told John, I said, John, I gotta go. You're at the wake getting this call. Yes, yes, yes. I had, and I said, I gotta go, bro. What happened?

My son got hit by a car. You see, how is he? I don't know. I don't know. I told him what happened to my sister. I don't, she hung up on me. He's gotta be dead. I got in the car and we went back.

And they were supposed to, the other calls on the way, he's in the Staten Island Hospital. I'm making calls to people in fucking New York Hospital already while this is going on. I get there, I go see him. I have an ambulance, pick him up, pull him out of that hospital and bring him to New York hospital. Major people. So when I get back, I go to the hospital

and I see him, I sit down, hug him, kiss him. And I'm gonna go home. I got a driver, Louie, and I said, listen, I'm walking out of the hospital. I can't. What are you talking about? Take the car and go home. I'm gonna go back.

I gotta stay in the room with him. I can't leave him. I just have to. Come back tomorrow with the car or whatever, but I gotta stay here. So I went upstairs. I grabbed the nurse. I said, listen, I know this visiting is over and I am supposed to go. I'm not going. Please let's not get into this. I can't go and I'm not going. All right, all right, Sam. We'll get you one of those chairs with the recliner bullshit. You

could stay with that. We'll get you a blanket, you could sleep here. And that's what I did. And then the next day, as a matter of fact, John Gotti came to the hospital to visit him. So similar thing happened. The, my driver, Louie says, Sammy, the guy who hit your son is a neighbor too. He's petrified.

See, what's he petrified about? You see what I mean? John and he's petrified. I said, I'm like, come on, take me to his house. I went to his house and I think it was his daughter or something that was on the back. I says, how is she? She's OK. Yeah.

I fuck insurance or whatever. If she's got hurt in any way, I don't think she was hurt bad, but if she's hurting in any way, get doctors, do what you gotta do. I'll pay for it. Don't worry about money. Don't worry about nothing.

And what the fuck are you worried about me for? It's my fault. I left the fucking mini bike there. It's my son's fault because he's on it as a, but it's not his fault, he's a kid. And he drove. You didn't do anything wrong. Matter of fact, he hit into you. But he's going to be fine. It's got a broken lock, he's busted up a little bit,

but please don't worry about me. I'm your neighbor. I'm your friend. I'm sighing for the guy right now. Like, who, thank God. Yeah, no, he's worried. I mean, understandable, but I stop that immediately. You don't have to worry about me.

All right, we gotta wrap you up here. So thank you for doing this. Advice you'd give to 16 year old Sammy the Bull and you're out of here, brother. What would you tell young 16 year old Sammy? Go to school, get a fucking job, work fucking hard. You may make some less money and things like that, but you don't have to look over your shoulder

all your life. I've been in three fucking mafia wars. I got over 22 fucking years of my life in prison. You're going to shoot some of the people that you really like. They're going to maybe kill you. Don't do it. Don't do it. Thank you very much. Uh, let me plug your YouTube and your Instagram again, official Sammy the bull. Follow them now as always Ryan sick, Laura on all your social media. We'll talk to y'all next week. You