The HoneyDew with Ryan Sickler - 359: John Amaechi - Reaching the League in Six Years

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

SPONSORS: Function Health - Visit www.functionhealth.com/HONEYDEW or use gift code HONEYDEW100 at sign up to own your health Booking.com -Head over to Booking.com and start your listing today. Get Seen. Get Booked on Booking.com. Brunt -Get $10 Off at BRUNT with code HONEYDEW at https://www.bruntworkwear.com/HONEYDEW My HoneyDew this week is psychologist and former professional basketball player John Amaechi! Check out John’s latest book, It's Not Magic: The Ordinary Skills of Exceptional Leaders. John joins me this week to Highlight the Lowlights of growing up in Stockport, England, his unique journey into the NBA, and earning a PhD in psychology while playing in the league. With little exposure to basketball in England, John shares the memory of picking his first ball up at 17 and the moments after that changed everything. He also shares his experience as the first openly gay NBA player, and how he balances the pride of that milestone with the desire to be recognized for his basketball and career achievements. Check out my new standup special “Live and Alive” streaming on my YouTube now! https://youtu.be/PMGWVyM2NJo?si=SrhXjgzR1pe6CyYE SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE and watch full episodes of The Dew every toozdee! https://youtube.com/@rsickler SUBSCRIBE TO MY PATREON - The HoneyDew with Y’all, where I Highlight the Lowlights with Y’all! Get audio and video of The HoneyDew a day early, ad-free at no additional cost! It’s only $5/month! AND we just added a second tier. For a total of $8/month, you get everything from the first tier, PLUS The Wayback a day early, ad-free AND censor free AND extra bonus content you won't see anywhere else! http://patreon.com/RyanSickler What’s your story?? Submit at [e-mail] Get Your HoneyDew Gear Today! https://shop.ryansickler.com/ Ringtones Are Available Now! https://www.apple.com/itunes/ http://ryansickler.com/ https://thehoneydewpodcast.com/ SUBSCRIBE TO THE CRABFEAST PODCAST https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-crabfeast-with-ryan-sickler-and-jay-larson/id1452403187

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And it's been a two and a half year labor of love. And we crushed it. I found every single person to work on this within a single dad budget, living in this expensive-ass city of Los Angeles, and I'm going to say we crushed it. We did. This is nothing like my last special. This special is special. It's a bit of a one-man show, a retelling of a near-death experience, live and alive, streaming on my YouTube now, and go give it some extra love because YouTube demonetized it. Within two days, somebody complained about it. They took it out of the algorithm. We fought. They got us back in there, but it's already killed the momentum.

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Welcome back to the Honeydew. Y'all. We're over here. doing it in the nightpan studios i am ryan sickler ryan sickler dot com and ryan sickler on all your social media and i'm starting this one like i start them all by saying thank you thank you for watching this show thank you for being subscribed to this channel i can't tell you how grateful i am that i get to come in here and do this and look i know a lot of you love the show and if you want more you got to check out the patreon we've been doing it for years it's been five dollars a month for years and it's this show with y'all It's called The Honeydue with y'all.

And it is, I promise you, it's the wildest show on the internet. You guys have the craziest stories. So if you or someone you know has a story that has to be heard, please submit it to us at Honeydew Podcast at gmail.com. If you sent it before, send it again. We get a lot of them bump it to the top. We would love to do your story. All right?

That's the biz. You guys know what we do over here. We highlight the low lights. I always say that these are the stories behind the storytellers. I am very excited to have this guest on with us today. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome John Amachie. Welcome to the honeydew John. Thank you. I'm very excited to have you here, brother. Thank. We've been talking for quite a bit before. Before we get into what we're going to talk about today, please right there, promote everything and anything you'd like. I have a new book coming out. It is called It's Not Magic, the ordinary skills of exceptional leaders. It is well worth a look at in a world where everyone is being told they can't lead. This is the book that will tell you some basic skills. Take a look at it. Also, I'm not quite as prolific as you on social media, but I'm on social media on LinkedIn. I think that's the old person's social media. But I'm also on Instagram and even TikTok, much to the chagrin of my younger colleagues who think that I'm too old for TikTok. So give me a follow.

I don't think, look, I'm not on TikTok. I have one of my producers does my TikTok, but we're not too old to be on it. You got to be on it. That's where it is today. I agree. If the audience is there, it's where you got to go. Who says there's an age for it? Now, do we need to be TikTok dancing and doing the trends? Yeah. I guarantee. We are too old for that. I guarantee you there will be no TikTok. We are too old.

My back cannot take that. So there's a lot I want to talk to you about. You're a very interesting man. You're a former MBA player. You're a current psychologist, correct? Yep. What else? Tell us what else.

Author, obviously author, published author. Nerd, geek. All right. Yeah, I mean. go back to the beginning. Yeah. Where are you originally from? Tell us quickly, you know, just give us a little.

So I am from a place called Stockport. It's near Manchester. People know that mostly from Manchester United. I grew up with my two sisters and my mom. She took care of us. She was a doctor, a GP in Stockport. I had an amazing childhood, despite the fact that, you know, some people I think having a single parent is inherently problematic.

I need to be clear. I wasn't one of those rags to richest things. My mom was a doctor. Although we weren't rich, I never was left wanting. So I had a pretty good start in life. Well, a lot of people have a good start in life. And then they fuck it up for themselves. So good for it.

I've done that too. I've done that too. Well, you came pretty quickly with the single parent. So is dad never in the picture? Is he like just? And can I ask you, do you all three siblings, same dad? Yes. Okay.

And who's the oldest? So I'm the oldest. And then I've got two sisters. One who lives here in Los Angeles, works in the film industry, and the other who lives in the UK, in Manchester still. And when does dad split? Very early. So we left. We were all in Boston, because my mom was working in Boston at the time.

And we left when I was three, three and a half, something like that. I have very few memories of it at all. The most of the memories of my father are when he decided he wanted to reclaim his children. When was that? This was probably six through 11, so very much in the early years. And every once in a while we would be shipped off to just, no, no, to stay with what we call our aunties, but they were just friends with my mums. And we'd end up staying with them for a couple of days.

And that was because he was coming. He was coming to talk to her. And so she would have those talks. Oh, I see. He's coming to have a talk with mom about, hey, I want to get back in on this. And mom's like, let me get the kids over here while. he and I have that. I see. I spent lots of my primary school years.

That's like through 11, not being able to leave past the end of the road because it was always this nebulous fear that my father would be in the country. You guys have like a restraining order. You guys can't go certain far. I did it once. I took my bike and I just went with the local kids and we drove her out. I was out for a couple hours, three hours. I came back to the police.

Really? So that's how serious my mother was about it. So he was local. enough that he was not local he was no we didn't know if he was in america or he was in england or if he was in nigeria but we and that was part of the danger we just didn't know where he was and was mom worried that he was going to take you is that what she was yeah that's what his visits to negotiate were always about i see and oh really yeah not just i live down the street i want a co-parent he's i want my kids he didn't want a co-parent he just

wanted us as accessories i think you know one of those parents who doesn't realize that you've got to invest in your kids you can't just own them and and are you on team mom for this oh yeah during it you know you're not like i want that okay oh no no there's no part of it all three of you are like we know what's up okay yeah we left in the night for a reason and we didn't know what that reason i was the only one probably old enough to remember it but there was zero chance that i was going to say oh yeah let's find out about this man okay so now you're uh you're you're in an all-female household single mom two sisters. Where in London?

No, we were in Manchester still. Okay, in Manchester still. And how old are you now? Well, probably, well, no, no, right today. Oh, today, sorry. Yeah, now I'm 55. Okay, we're about the same age. So what, where in the fuck are you finding the MBA?

You're in a all-female household in Manchester, not in the state. And you're growing up, like I grew up, so you're just coming into that 1980s. You said, well, you thought earlier, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Where? What the hell finds you? So there used to be, well, the reality is before, before I was approached on the street, I didn't know that basketball existed. I literally, I was walking down the street in Manchester. I was going to the Central Library. It was one of my favorite things to do.

I am a nerd. I love books. And I was going to a library, you could find library books. They were free. And I would grab books. I would grab pies from local baker. and that would be a good day right there. You just eat a pie and read a book?

Bro, that does sound. I've never had that. I've never put those two together. A book in one hand with greasy fingerprints. I'm sure every book I ever handled just has greasy porphrints on it. Oh, man. But I loved it. So I was walking down, it's called Market Street, which is the main shopping street in

Manchester. And some bloke came up to me and just said, it's really interesting what he didn't say he didn't say you should play basketball because I would have been like books pie no thanks and he didn't say uh you know the kind of implication that all I'm good for is is playing basketball he said you'd be great at basketball and it was literally the first time outside of my family that I'd ever heard anybody tell me I'd be great anything and how tall are you then probably I was 17 so probably six foot eight when when do you hit that gross bird oh i didn't no no you gradually grew enormous baby enormous toddler oh really

enormous teenager you were just always big enormous and i was also big and fat it's just a battle i've had my entire life right this but i was big and fat so i wasn't like a tall skinny uh six foot eight i was a chunker was were there was there organized like basketball in your high school and stuff oh no no no so just no i went to a grammar school in england so that is uh i don't know what the I don't imagine you're all playing soccer. Well, no, no. Because grammar schools are, they're like, they are not private schools, but they're posh fee-paying schools.

So I went to a grammar school. We wore a uniform, school uniform that was gold and, sorry, black coats with gold braid. It was that kind of school. I see. And that school had a, they were so posh that they didn't play football. There was only two, yeah, there was only two sports you could play there for boys. And that was rugby or. lacrosse.

Really? La Crosse. Random. Early back then, too. Because I, you know, I grew up in Maryland and that's a big La Croll, the whole east, you know, my daughter's learned right now. She's like, you know what sport the Native Americans played? I said, lacrosse.

And she goes, how do you know? I said, we learned that in Maryland. And it's why it makes sense. Like, that part of the, when I first moved out here to California, very few people. There might have been a club team here or there. And now there's a shitload of lacrosse everywhere. So that's in the 80s it was in over there. The sport is actually a hotbed of lacrosse.

I cannot explain to you why, but it is. I played not for any other reason then. I thought, this is a sport that I can be so bad at that I won't be mandated to play it anymore. Your six foot eight ass is coming at somebody in lacrosse. You're like Jim Brown. I was in goal. They were like get in there and block everything. I went at this sport from the perspective of how can I not do this in a year's time?

I see. How can I be so bad that all I have to do is like regular P. I don't have to do any additional sport. So I stood in gold. I got pelted by those very, very heavy rubber balls. And I was like, this is a small price to pay for not doing this. Okay. And then probably two or three years later, my school forced me to play rugby.

They did. They essentially said, you have to play rugby. So I played rugby for a short while. I was not good at it, nor did I enjoy it. And then I discovered basketball. This bloke asked me if I told me that I'd be great today. That guy that says that, random dude says that to you. Isn't that wild?

It is. Someone in your life just comes by. So they talk about all the time. People are here for, what is it, a season, a reason or someone. I can't remember what is. That guy just went, you should be great at this. Did he still do. Did you know?

You don't even know who he is. Was he an American? No, no. It was a Brit. And what I do know is that probably 10 different people, especially just at the point where I went to America for university, actually. and start to get notoriety in basketball communities for that in the UK. That was when the point these people came out of the woodwork. I was the person because I told the story.

So I was the person and none of these people were the person. I don't know who it was, but it's none of the people. They're all trying to clay and all jumping on it. So then what makes you say, you know what? Maybe I'm going to give that a shot. And how do you do that in Manchester? So I got details of a club that plays, that played at a, it's just like a little local club. They were named after the local shop

And the local shop was called shop local So So the team was called the shop local Basketball Club There you go That's like great It was amazing And I went along there

And I walked into a gym So there were enough people I'm sorry to interrupt people Yeah but there were enough kids interested That we could get a lot Some ground sport right So it's an underground sport right So it's an underground sport, but much like in this country, underground sports still have, they've got lots of people doing it.

It's just not recognized. There's no facilities. So we were just kind of random gym with a backboard slapped right on the wall, right? So no separation, an ankle killer every single time you went for a layup. Oh, it's just up. Well, yeah, it's just a slap on the wall, right? So you are going for a layup and you end up halfway into the wall. God forbid you're doing a full-on fast break running down because you're not stopping in time.

But it was crazy But I walked into that gym The first time And I'd never touched a basketball And I walked in I stooped under the door And I stood up and everything stopped It's like just one random basketball

Bancel dribbling off into the corner And then they all ran towards me And I was like, what is this? And they were like, he's on our team And I was like, that felt amazing It was like, I'm dead doing this, even though I didn't know what I was doing. I had to tell them I didn't know what I was doing

because I felt bad about it. It was like, you realize I've never played this. It doesn't matter. I was like, that's amazing, too. And then I took my first shot and it missed by three feet. They said, shoot it. And I realized, it was only at that point when I realized, I don't know what that means. What does shoot it mean? They put that in there. So I threw it up, missed by three feet. Some kid on the floor, not on my team on the other side of the scrimmage, was like, that was his first shot. he only missed by three feet. Now, as a psychologist, you know that's called a growth mindset, right? The idea of looking at failure and seeing the positive of it.

But I was like, where else can I be where people can watch my abject failure and frame it as something positive? And I was like, I'm never leaving this place. I'm never leaving this place. Yeah. And then at the end, right? Even my failures are adored here. I'm sat with these kids at the end of a practice.

And it's, you know, Manchester is famous for its rain. It's just tipping it down outside. I'm sat with these kids and they're talking about the NBA. I was like, what's the NBA? They said it's the best league in the world. It's in America. And my head just was, I was like, I know America. A team, Night Rider, America.

And one thing I knew from those shows is the sun always shines. So my initial thought and the reason I wanted to play in the NBA was I thought, what if I could feel like this, but the sun would be shining. I was like, so I told them all, yeah, I'm going to play in the NBA. Day one. Day one, after 45 minutes worth of practice and missing, I don't know if I made a shot because I don't remember that I missed a lot of shots. Let me ask you this.

What did your first dunk feel like? Did that feel as good as ducking under that door and walking in and seeing everything when you realized, oh, I don't need to. This doesn't need to leave my hand. I can just do this. I mean, I'm, I, my first dunk felt, you know what, this is what I thought. I was like, that was a huge amount of effort to still be two points. I never heard of that.

You know, because I'm not a good athlete, right? You think about it when you're flying from that, Jordan's flying from the foul line. That should be like, that should be, it's the same as me standing right here doing this. Yeah, yeah. It's a great point. Listen, I know a lot. of my teammates were amazing athletes so when they did it there was something special and hypey about it when i did it it was the most fundamental and dullest of things right but also it took

a huge amount of effort for me so if it took i don't know a hundred calories for me to do a layup it took me 10 000 calories to do a dunk and which is why there are so few dunks right a i'm a bad athlete but b it was just too energy expenses so even when i could when i was was in the league, and starting in Orlando, it's like my heyday, as much as I had one, I was playing really well. We were playing against whatever team had Chris Webber on it at the time, and I don't remember. Sacrameno? Could have been. I think it might have even been before then, but I'm not sure. And I, the previous game, had done a reverse, like, under the basket, dunk that had literally made my teammates' jaws drop, and I didn't know either. I didn't, I couldn't explain how it happened.

But I tried it again the second, that next game, and I got foul, but I missed the dunk. And my teammates come up to me and they were like, no, no, you don't dunk. I had another, it was in the nicest possible way. They were just like, come on, John, you know that's not you. And they're right. I lay the ball up. That's what I do. We had a game where a new player had joined the team just before the trade deadline.

And Anthony, I think his name was. And we were on the fast break. and he threw up an Alleyu woman. I have never, ever, ever, ever caught an aloeu. That's your first one? No, no, no. That was not my first one. No.

The ball sailed up and luckily one of the opponents tipped it. Little do they know. If they hadn't tipped it, it would have been just, it would have been their ball. And Ben Wallace and a couple of other players was like, you can hear it on the audio of the game. I've actually got it. the audio of the game, you can hear them just going, that's John Amici. That's John Amici. As in, you don't throw an alley upped. And they're right. You don't throw an ale yuk to me. It's not my thing. It's not going to happen.

Oh, I have so many questions for you. Okay. So is mom supportive of this? She was incredibly supportive of what something she didn't understand. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. This is a sport. I don't even know. And you got to go over there. You got to leave to go do this. I loved about what she did was that I don't know how many rational, even supportive parents would listen to their son say, I didn't tell her immediately after this practice, but I kind of planned it out. And then I came to her one evening when she was just resting in a bed and I said,

I need to tell you, I don't know where I'm going to go to university, which was my approach. And she said, well, there's Leeds and there's Manchester and there's even London, because London was far away for us, not in American terms, but in Britain it felt far. And I said, I don't know what country I go. And I remember she turned the radio off and she says, what do you mean? And I said, yeah, I'm planning on going to the NBA. That means I'm going to go from here. I'm going to go to America for university, get a scholarship, very easy. And then I'm going to be drafted into the NBA. And she said to me, something that still to this day feels frustrating when I think about it. She said, would you recognize your soul in the dark?

As the 17-year-old, I was like, what the hell are you talking about? We're atheists, for starters. And she went into this diatribe about how the things I'm not willing to address about myself will get in the way. And we acknowledged over the next couple of weeks, I'm fundamentally lazy. I'm a fat kid for a reason. I like pie, I like books, I like sitting, I don't like sweating. I have never once... I don't like sweating.

I have never once had, you know that, was it called the Runners High? Yeah, listen, me either. I have never had it. I don't even know what they're talking about. They just hit a thing where like, woo, I've never known. I have never experienced that. I've experienced the soreness the day after exercise, never experienced the runners high. And it's amazing.

That's part of the reason why I made it to the league is I was. was willing to acknowledge the fact that I'm fundamentally lazy and given a choice between easy option and hard option, this bloke will take easy option every single time. And MBA was easier than what? Then what was the other option? It's not that it's easier. It's just that because I knew that I'd take the easy option, I knew that I need rigidity. I needed to become obedient to a schedule, right? Okay.

So you're saying you're agreeing that this military approaches, like, I need a little ass weapon. I need to get in shape here. Okay. And this is what's required. this amount of practice, this amount of stretching, this amount, whatever else. Plus the school, you have to go to college for it. Where do you go? I went to Penn State.

I went to Vanderbilt for one year first. Did you get a scholarship? I got a scholarship for Mandible. How is a kid over in Manchester who's never even played this damn game? By the way, what age are you when you finally do do this? We start. When I start, it's high school? So, no, I went, I was in high school.

I was in, we have a different system. But yeah, I was 17, so in my. last two years of school. You didn't even play basketball until 17 and you made it to the NBA? Yeah. That's incredible. That's even more incredible. It is incredibly rare. There is me in the list. You said, tell me. Yeah, there's me in the list of people who've done that. So now I understand what you're saying. You had said you're the only player in the history of the NBA to start playing at 17 and then make it to the league. And make it in six years. In six years. In that short amount of time. And so I was saying, what about Kobe? But Kobe, we didn't start.

start at 7th. Kobe was playing since he's this big. Yeah, LeBron, I see what you mean. You didn't touch a basketball. I mean, in fairness, you could also, we can acknowledge the fact that they were, they became unbelievably brilliant athletes. So I think the distance they traveled even with, you know, the age that they started is pretty remarkable. Yeah, but still, you're, so you're a history maker right there. You're the only, the one. And I think in the way that it matters, right, because that was due to choices. I got to America by going to, I went to London with my mom on the bus and we went to a place called the Fulbright Commission

which has a list of high schools in America and we bought books with lists of high schools in and we went through and put a pen in and was like, oh, we'll contact this school in Roanoke, Virginia, we'll contact this school. Did you stay East Coast on purpose so it wasn't so far? No, no. I had no concept of how big America was.

I had no, I arrived in America I had no concept of how big this place is, none at all. I didn't even realize until I got to America that most Americans don't speak English. It was a revelation to me. I arrived in Toledo, Ohio, and again, my coach there, Ed Heidenshaw, best person in the world,

wouldn't have made it without him, but couldn't understand him what he said. I arrived. It was so hot because I arrived in the summer before the year started. I'd never experienced heat like that. We don't have air, well, we do now. But at that stage in England, we didn't have air conditioning.

I arrived. I was freezing cold inside every building, burning up outside of, I was like, I'm in an alien land right now. And people talk to me and have no idea what they're talking about. I would ask for water and get orange juice. It's just like, it was an amazing acculturation period where I just nodded and smiled at people for about six months. So how are you keeping in touch with mom and everything while you're over there?

Are you going back at all? No. Or you're just, I'm here now. That's what I figured. I could come for the year and then leave at the end of the year. So go home for the summer. And that was it. But that was it for us in terms of that.

The only option then was I could leave one more time if I got a scholarship. So the high school was the period to get the scholarship. amazing, amazing support I got from the school, actually. So how many high school years did you do here? Just the one senior year? Yeah, yeah, just did my senior year. And just one year at that Ohio school, you get a scholarship, full ride? Full ride.

To where? Vanderbilt. A school that I picked, by the way, because I used a computer program to look at where the best psychology programs. And I picked a very particular type. of school that was a bad school in a good conference because I knew I wasn't good enough to play in because I wanted to play for Duke right that's where I wanted to play everybody wants to play for but I knew that I really need to set my science at Northwestern or Vanderbilt and not because they're bad it's just that they're not the top schools in

their conferences but their conferences are great and if I want to play in the NBA I've got to be in a great conference so that's why I picked it unfortunately I got there and my coach had very different ideas he told me and my room roommate, a guy called Matt Maloney, he told us both that we were division three players. And so we left after a year, and he went to Penn, I went to Penn State, and we both ended up in the league. You both did? Yeah, he won a championship with Houston.

Where's that guy? Where's the coach that told you this? He ended up. I met him my last couple of years in the league because he was a scout for the Utah Jazz while I was there. Did you say something to? No, we never spoke. Did he remember you? to practice a few times?

You remembered your ass. We never spoke. A scout remembers everybody. I know. He didn't remember me, apparently. Yeah. I chose function because it's the only health platform that gives me data most people never get and the insights to start doing something about it.

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That's bruntworkware.com and use code honeydew. Order today and let them know you heard it here on the show. Now, let's get back to the due. So now your relationship with your relationship with your mom you say your mom ends up passing away yeah what at how old was she she was 50 she's young yeah what happened she died of cancer did you know this was coming or i did indeed were you able to go see her yeah she had i remember when she first was diagnosed and then she went through treatment and then she was fine in the at least as much as a kid would understand and then uh i was in america when she

called me, which was rare because phone calls back then to America, to Britain were very expensive. That was a long, long distance. And she called me and I remember crying on the phone and she tells me she's got cancer again. I ended up going back in the summer to see her very briefly because I still had to come back for school. And then she got very, very sick just around Christmas. And I remember we, I don't remember which game we were playing, but I remember we played a game. It was preseason, pre-big 10 season. We beat whoever it was. We had a press conference where I had to sit there and tell everybody I'm going home and I'll be missing the next game because my mother has cancer.

And they did, they only wanted me to miss one game. So they flew me back on Concord. right the con dude you've we've talked i know this is crazy i've never met a human being that actually flew on the concord some people think it was a myth especially a brassic you know totally totally poor college student so you're flying out of vanderbilt i mean from this was this was Penn state because i transferred right you're out of there okay i was at Penn state so and they're flying you who's they the school the school is i finished the game it was hardship measures with things like your mother dying apparently even the NCAA softens up a little bit So I was driven from Penn State to JFK.

I got there at, I don't know, one in the morning or something, airports empty. I sleep on a, on a, it's such an, the opposite experience that you might expect to have before going on Concord. I'm sleeping on a bunch of benches waiting for morning to come so I can then wait for afternoon to come. I don't think I even went to a lounge or anything. But when it was time, I went to the Concord.

Here I am dressed in Penn State sweats. I'm pretty sure they didn't expect me to have a ticket, but I had the little paper ticket. Remember back in the day, the carbon copy underneath it thing. So I had that. I remember back in the day I had to go to the airport to get my damn ticket for a flight that I wasn't taking that day. Really? Yeah, you had to go to the airport back in the day. You could go get it.

Thank God for technology, at least in that dimension. So, yeah, I got on the plane. It was tiny. You know that Concord is tiny. Yeah, tell me. about it because what was the flight time i mean it's it's two hours 48 or something like that it is it is it private jet size it i don't i don't know because i've i've been on mba private jets but they're massive planes uh so i'm not sure but i know it was i couldn't stand up in it right

you could no no no so i was like this in it how many seats you would you say it's two and two two very nice leather seats but two and two on either sides of an aisle So two there, two there, and then back, back, back all the way. But it's the same seat everywhere in the plane. It comes with this little bag I've still gotten for this day. I've also got the salt and pepper because it's little silver salt and pepper. And then silver dice. Oh, that's cool.

That came in a little leather bag. I know it's silver because they've tarnished like silver, so at least it's silver plated. And I've still got them too. I've also got the one from the seat next to me, which was unoccupied, so I stole that. is it what does it do you feel that speed you remember like um is it take off different like not to sound boozy but i've been fortunate enough to be on some comedians private jets and the first time i was on it i had no idea it doesn't grat this son of a bitch just yeah like it went up and i was like holy shit we're not and we're banking like this we're not taking a slow gradual

term with 300 souls on board you know like it was man i was like whoa There is in the cabin a Mac counter so that you can see the speed that the plane is going. But the pilot came on the intercom after we'd taken off, it said, you know, that pilot voice that all of them have and the ESO and just want to let you know that we're about to move into a cruising speed. You might feel a little push, just like that. Never forget it. And so I sit back and it's like, it's not a little bit. push it's like a it's like a kick but it was just incredibly exciting and daunting and I was in in the middle of like I should be really excited about this but I feel guilty because I'm coming

back to see my mom who's very unwell and it was that weird mixture of things it's also great you went from JFK to London to London then had to go from London to Manchester but that's that's a flight that time is from here to Seattle mm-hmm that's insane that thing's all in ass it was amazing So you get there and you get to see mom and spend time with mom? I do indeed. Do they expect you to come back? No, no, I had a flight back. I had a regular commercial flight back.

It was like five days later. I could miss one game. That's all I could miss. So maybe it was three days later. But I was there. I saw her. She promised me that she would be all right until the next time I saw her. And she was all right until the next time I saw her.

I left school early that year because she died during the school year. And so I missed a bunch of classes. I had a absolutely, what a dickhead. I can't remember his name. I wish I could because he'd like to shame him. He was a teacher who did like the exercise science stuff. And you've got to take like baseball or one of these classes, right? And I took something like that, baseball, something like that.

And I missed that class. every other class I had that I missed gave me a grade based on how I'd been doing in the class Up to that point, sure And most of them were, I was a four point student I was a student, so I wasn't a bad student He failed me that class. It's the only class that I failed in college

Was the class that he failed because I failed to show up Because I was at home with my mother who was dying And died actually during that school year Were you, did you get to see her? I got to see her for two days before she died, yeah. You did? Did she know at that point it was coming? Yeah, yeah.

It's one of the sad parts about that particular type of cancer and also at that time where the treatments weren't as it advanced, your body deteriorates a remarkable amount. What kind of cancer did she have? She had breast cancer. Breast cancer, yeah. So the last part that kind of holds on is your mind. And she was, because she was the solution-focused kind of amazing mom, was making sure that we're all settled and set, and that's what she did in the last few days.

And how old are you at that point when she passes? And you're 20s, early 20s? That was the end of my junior year in Penn State, which was 19, is that 1990, 92, 93? 93, probably. So that would make me 22 years old, something like that. So now mom's gone. Yep. You're on your own in the States.

I hear you. But you've got teammates. You at least have some teammates. That's nice. High school coach, still in touch, still really supportive. Bruce Parkhill, my head coach, who is a man I considered a stoic, right? The only emotion he showed was rage when we messed up. And he was unbelievably supportive, like properly compassionate, something I did not expect from him, but was amazing.

I have to, I mean, the Penn State family for all the. struggles that Penn State has had since. It took care of me. So now you're getting drafted into the NBA? Oh, hell no. No. You're not getting drafted. So how do you make it to the league out of Penn State?

I don't do anything the simple way. I was not, I was really disappointed. I wasn't invited to many of the pre-draft camps that you just have to be invited to. I went to Portsmouth, which is the initial pre-draft camp. camp and I played like shit I was awful I wouldn't have drafted me but after that I didn't get any notes any letters any asked to try out or interview which is what normally happens so I sat in Toledo with this family watching the draft and was that back in the day when we had like seven rounds something like that I don't know it was a lot there was a lot back then and I was like

maybe I'll go in the, no, undrafted. So I had to call my agent. We had to talk about what was going to do. We targeted a couple of places. We picked Cleveland because they were rebuilding, read shit. And maybe somebody like me could end up on that squad. So I got into about $30,000 dollars worth of debt by finding a trainer in Phoenix. So I moved to Phoenix.

I had a little one-bedroom efficiency. and paid for this trainer who was my trainer for the rest of my summers then. He was amazing in order to then get ready for the preseason and the summer camps and the preseason camps. And that's what I did. I went to preseason camp with Cleveland, played really well. It's brutal, man. It was brutal.

You know how you realize that you weren't going to be staying? The trainer, one of the random. trainers or ball boys would come in the locker room while you're all getting changed and all the lockers have lovely brass things for the actual players but they put your name up on on uh on tape you know like that painter's tape yeah yeah and so they write your name on painters tape on there and so you'd see them come in with a clipboard as you're trying to put your shoes on and you'd be watching them as they'd come up to a a locker and they'd be like you'd be sat in it no and they're just pouring a tape above your head

that's ice cold that's true while you're tying your shit that's a hell of a way to be cut man shit that is cut I remember sitting next to guy the guy's standing in front of me with the

thing ye and he's looking up and then he's looking up and he goes and I was like oh my God and it's the worst feeling because you feel joy and relief I was going to say and the best Yeah, yeah.

Even as you know, the person next to you is devastated. I was next to this Egyptian guy, actually, who had been, you know, come all the way and was trying to find his way into the league and cut. Yeah, it was brutal. I ended up, but that was the team that I ended up starting at the beginning of year. Cleveland. Yeah, yeah.

So good for you. What made you say, no, I am going to fucking invest in this and do this? What's telling you, all right, I didn't get draft that I played like shit. What's telling you keep going? Too many sacrifices. So I was in this country. I was in America while my mother was dying of cancer. There were memories and moments that I could have had with her.

Many, many memories and moments. Tons of days. Her good days when we might have gone on a trip and wrapped her up and sat by a lake or sat by a river or sat in the countryside. or sat in a pub. And I missed all that in order to get to the NBA. So you better believe when she's gone. There's not a chance that I'm going to say, oh, well, maybe it wasn't for me.

There's just no way. There's no way. I am going to play in this league. I'm going to start in this league. Yeah, it's another thing. You started. You're not a guy on the bench. There's a big difference.

Not a guy on the bench. You're starting five for the Cleveland Cavaliers. At least for the first six game. We were terrible. We lost our first six games. Cleveland was terrible, right? We lost our first six games. I was terrible.

What position were you playing? I was power forward or center, depending on what the needs were, right? And not, I'm not an oversized center, right? I'm just about power forward. But we lost, we had one of my, I think my first game in, this was even before the season started. It was a preseason game when the league used to take you to random cities. We were in Kansas City playing the, Chicago Bulls, the 90s, Chicago Bulls.

You're playing against Jordan, Pippin, all of that lot. My first shot is an easy, wide open layup that is blocked into the stands by Scottie Pippin, who as he stands over to me, says, welcome to the league. I scored 12 points in that game, and we got our ass kicked, and I was fucking jubilant. I was going to say, I would be. stoked to get 12 on the Bulls. On the bus, going back to the van, I was just like, I couldn't, I was containing myself because I knew

we'd lost and lost by a lot. And that wasn't good. But I just sat there like, I had 12, I led the team in scoring. Who thought that anybody would say that a fat British kid from Stockport led the team in scoring?

I was like, that's pretty cool. And that's another point. How many Brits are in the league at the time? None. None. You're also the first one. Maybe not the first, but you're only one during your time playing there? There was another guy before me, his tenure was not super long, but he played for, he played for the Lakers. His name is Steve Buknall. And so he was, I don't know if he was even the first, but he's the first in my memory. So he played for the Lakers.

I don't think he lasted a season, but still remarkable. Then ended up playing across Europe. I played with him, and he was a teammate of mine when we played for England in international competition. But I'm certainly the first one to have a career, the first Brit to have a career in the NBA, which is cool. Now, I want to talk to you about this because you're also, correct me if I'm wrong, are you the first openly gay out NBA player? That is correct. That is correct. You got a lot of first, bro.

You know, you want to lead an interesting life, right? All right. So let's rewind a little bit here to being a gay man. When are you, when are you realizing that this is who you are? 11. 11. You went right to 11. Why?

What happens at 11? Oh, nothing in particular. I just knew. Before that, even my mother told me about, like, I had a friend called Paul. And I distinctly remember my mother talking to me about the time I came to her and said, you know, this is my friend Paul. And I said, actually, he's more than a friend. And I, obviously, I was a kid at the very young kid at the time. I don't think it was a sexual thing, but certainly spoke to the depth of the relationship.

So she was fairly convinced that I was gay from a very early age anyway. I don't think it came as a super shocker to anybody who knows me very well. So, yeah, it was, but 11, I knew, and then 11, I knew that it was a bad thing. Because all you have to do is walk out on the streets and realize how people talk about it. It was the middle of the kind of the LGBT scare. I remember being, you know, a teenager having absolutely no sexual contact with anybody, but being totally convinced that I was going to get AIDS at some point. Well, let me tell you something.

As a straight heterosexual boy in high school, I was convinced I was going to get it. They convinced everyone that we were all going to get AIDS. If we even like kiss each other, yes, we were terrified. No one knew anything about it then. and it was all fear, fear, fear. Even to the point when Magic came back, there were players that didn't want to play against them. Yeah, even as a player, I respect to a lot.

Guys worry with sweat, bump, you know, nonsense, nonsense. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. So, yeah. And disappointing. It's a wild time and you're a gay man and you're in the league. And when do you decide?

Who do you confide in? So tons of people. I mean, the thing that I would. In the league, I mean, are there coaches. No, yeah, yeah, no, tons of people. Okay. Just it isn't, it isn't being out to everyone in the stands is not how most people are out. So even now, I'll meet people who have no idea about my backstory because they know me as the psychologist who works with them or their company.

They don't even know you play in the league or anything? No. I had a client the other day who's a CEO of a very, very large company in your. Europe. So just enormous, right, on par with some of the tech companies over here. And he came up to me and say, why didn't you tell me? I said, why didn't I tell you what? I'm very transparent with you about everything that's going on in the organization. He said, no, I just found out you played in the league. I was like, yeah, I didn't think it was relevant. So I didn't tell you. And so that's really common for my experience now. Lots of people have no idea I played. Because I'm of an age. Don't forget,

I played in the league before the kind of social media age too. So there was no magnification in the UK. If you were a big fan of the NBA, you might have known that I played. But nowadays, even kids, I walk past. You're right. All you had back then was like SportsCenter and shit like that. Yeah, I walk past parks now. And there's kids in Britain who have no idea.

There they are playing basketball and I walk through. And it's like, I'm one of a rare number of NBA players. Yes, you are. But from the country anyway. Yeah, I have no idea. I think it's kind of cool. You like that, huh? Yeah.

What, okay, so when you get going into the league, I was wanting to talk to you a little bit about that out there. Are you terrified that this, you know, is going to come out or you're going to be, you know, targeted or any of the, you know, backlash in any way? Are you worried about that? I wasn't initially, because initially I just had no life, right? I just put my personal life in a box under the bed. and it stayed there. You weren't dating anyone, seeing anyone at all. Hell no, no, no, no.

I'd had a few flirtations when I was in college, and I was more worried then. But when I got to the league, I was, hey, it wasn't even a question of wanting to. Bro, looking back on Penn State. You were the least of their worries. Right. I know.

Every time I, now you look back, you're like, I was fine. I was absolutely fine compared to other people getting on my shenanigans, yeah, it's true. but yeah once i got to league it just was i wasn't good enough to not put my entire focus on playing it's just the reality i'm a 70 out of a hundred NBA player i'm still better than anybody listening to this podcast unless they played in the NBA but 70 and so i just couldn't allow myself to focus anything else because it just wouldn't i wouldn't be any good i wouldn't be able to do

my job so i didn't drink much i didn't you know dan marley got me wasted before a game once but and I did not play well. But other than that, I was really focused on just doing that. It was only when I got, you know, to Orlando, probably, which is after a few years in Europe, where I did date a few people while I was in Europe. When I got to Orlando, I realized how lonely it is and how ironic it is to be a really good player

starting for your team, contributing well known by everybody in Orlando at least. and to be completely alone on purpose. It's like this is incredibly lonely and it feels unjust. And then you realize that there's a different set of rules for other people who, while they may not be gay people, what they're doing is having a wife and then a flirtation on the road or something else. It's like they can have these lives that other people might consider amoral, but I can't have a life that other people might consider amoral. amoral. I do not, obviously. But, yeah, so it was a lonely time. Like, this guy can cheat and do whatever and it's amoral, but it's okay because it's the heterosexual thing. Yeah, yeah. And we're,

yeah. And not, not a flicker from a fan when you've got somebody who's abused their partner, not a flicker for a fan when you've got somebody who's, I don't know, run a dog killing ring. Yeah. But the speculation around who's gay. And again, I reiterate, there's tons of gay people. my favorite thing. I sit and do the math in my head all the time and I laugh at the absurdity. There are 52 men, alpha fucking men on 30 football teams. You're telling me not one of those guys is gay. I can't wait for someone who really like comes out and is just like over the top with it. That's what I really want. I want like somebody like a Ray Lewis to come out and be like I sucked five dicks last night. we're going to go fuck you up today you know what i mean like i can't wait for that it's coming it's

coming down the line i'm not sure i'm not sure it's coming down the line i'm not sure the sentiment i think in this country is is pushing against that yeah i would i would just like if if people could react with more normalcy about it right the idea that someone has a partner that partner makes them happy and be done with it also as a as a fan okay this is my team. This is my guy. I don't give a fuck what you do in the off court as long as it ain't fucking fucking you on the court.

If you're drinking and driving and getting arrested, I got a problem with it. If you're fucking three, four, five women assaulting, et cetera, you know what I mean? I got a problem with it. I'm a fan of you. This is what I like. I don't give a shit what you're doing over there.

I don't care if you have 14 fucking kid, whatever, just keep it on the fucking court. That's all I care about. Why do we care about it? All these baseballs, all the athletes. Men. Hockey. That's right. That's right. We know what the WMBA is all about. Yep. But the hockey. Those guys, they're tight ends on skates fucking each other up. And I know they're gay men in the league. Of course there are. Of course there are. The math doesn't math. The good part is that I think there's many of them living happy lives where the people who they care about, the one or two coaches, the one or two trainers, the one or two teammates, or sometimes more than that, who they, who are they. actually have built friendships with become part of that life and those who haven't

don't and that's normal and they're not running to tell TMZs and everything yeah because you have your allies yes you've got people that you care about who you tell stuff yeah and people who you don't know who it's weird to tell stuff like on the converse if if you really thought about it if i just walked up to random people in an airport said hi gay it would be very weird right be a really odd way to start conversation you would expect to warm into that right yeah a little bit you know maybe if they we have a conversation about your partner and i figure i find out that's a woman and and so we're talking about your wife and and then you ask me about my partner and i say partner and then we see where that goes because that's what you do yeah i'm going to say partner first just in case you want of those

people is going to lose their mind so i'm just going to use partner because it's nice neutral language doesn't it honors my partner and doesn't make him feel awful but at the same time protects me from people who, especially in this country, have guns. And I'm afraid to use them. So what, at what point do you come out? Uh, 2000. Well, if you're talking about to the world, 2007, but I was effectively out during my Utah years. Were, is 2000, are you still playing in seven in the league when you come out? I was out. I, I retired in 2000, end of 2005, beginning in 2006. And then. So what makes you come out and say that? Why do you, why did you feel the need to say this is who I am. Oh, I didn't at all. I tell you. You were out? No, no, no, no. I left. I didn't want to

at all. I left America. I remember it was New Year's Eve. I knew I'd been traded to New York. I knew I wasn't going to New York. No offense to New Yorkers. I just, I was so tired. I'm sure people have had this with their regular jobs where they just sit and think, I'm done with this now. I'm done with this. My body really hurts. And that legacy has continued. And I was like, I'm just done with this. And so I just, I said thank you to the coach, JBG, Jeff Van Gundy, who had called me on my phone.

My sister was with me. A bunch of other people who were friends were with me in the car as I got the call on speakerphone. He said, look, I'm really sorry. I just need to let you know. You've been traded to New York. You'll be expected to report there in six days. And he said, I really appreciate. what you've done with the team. You haven't played an awful lot, but you've been brilliant in the locker room.

I was like, thank you. Really appreciate that. We just sat there in silence as I drove along in Houston. I was like, I'm done. So I retired, finished up, came back to England almost immediately. And I was like, great, I'm done with America. I'm done with that. I'm just going to do my own thing here. and then I went to Manchester Pride and I saw the Grand Marshal Ian McKellen in the back of a pink Cadillac driving through the streets and I was watching from a distance and I could see this kid in Manchester Cathedral Gardens like poking his head up behind a tombstone to watch this so it's my assumption a queer kid not out here he is watching and then Ian McKellen's doing the wavy wavy and he waved in our general direction and this kid rises up and waves with both his hands before seeing me and then jetting off. I was like, how cool is that? Imagine having that. I mean, I know I'm not Ian McKellen standard of celebrity, right? But imagine if there's somebody who could relate to me more easily than they might relate to Ian McKellen for any number of reasons. Well, yeah. And I thought,

well, okay. You're also, what if you're, you know, a big man? You know, when you look at a six-foot-eight man, Most people probably think that that's a heterosexual man. He's a big man, man. He's a manly man. I can roundly assure you they do. I'm sure of. So I would imagine that, you know, Ian Surrey and McKellen over there as a little tiny dude and you, you know, there's an actor. He's tiny.

That's right. There's a lot of men, big, gay, strong-ass men that probably really would, did benefit from you doing this. Yeah. Yeah. I like to think so. And again, my perspective is, it's not about quantity because I always think about that kid if there's just one. Because that's enough, right? You justified the price of pride in Manchester if one kid rises because of it. I think there's a lot to that. And so I know there must be one. And that's all I need to know. So then after all this, how does the, how does your being gay get into the media and stuff like that? So then I decided that what I, if I was going to do this, what I needed to do is have everything in one place. What I didn't want to do is to be coming and having people pull their own story together. So it's like, I will write a story.

Gotcha. Plus, part of me thought that I've always been frustrated by the idea that if my name comes up in America among sports fans, then I am known as the gay sports person. rather than something far more interesting and remarkable, which is the idea that I'm the English person who played in the NBA. I'm the English person who started the game at 17, and six years later was starting in the NBA. That is erased by the fact that I happened to be gay, not something I've had to work on, by the way.

And so that's, oh, there's dog. She's coming in. But that's what I wanted to kind of capture, if I could, the idea that your idea of my story is too small. And this is a part of it, an important part of it. It's just a part of it. So I started writing a book. We found a publisher.

I was working with Howard Bragman, who passed away a few years ago. He's a big PR guy. A lot of people have come out using his support. And so I worked with Howard. He was really amazing. Help me to kind of manage this going on Fox News, going on NBC morning shows, going on all of this stuff. and yeah it was it was tumultuous in doing in coming out that way did you receive more support than you thought you would or less so more than i thought i would i would say that the biggest disappointment

of it was the biggest excitement was the fact that there was a small but but concentrated positive group so if you think of the interactions i had with human beings both written email interpersonal, interpersonal interactions, 20% were really strongly positive and supportive. And probably 5% were really strongly negative. The number of death threats I had was remarkable. The number of people who found my sister's address in Manchester and sent her death threats. Death threats. Remarkable. For what?

And sent me death threats via her as well, right? for popularizing gayness, right? It was the usual narrative, the Tim Hardaway thing where he said he hates gay people and that just blew up, right, everything. But the thing that disappointed me most was if you take that 20 and you take that 5 was the 75 in the middle

who were apathetic and unmoved in a way that didn't allow for any kind of progress, literally didn't care and didn't care in the kind of way that I think is healthy, where you say, oh, so you're an immigrant here. Are you working really hard? Great. Moving on.

Oh, so you're German, you know, are you following the laws of this country? Great. That kind of, I don't care, which I don't think is really, I don't care. It's more embracing. It's more of who cares. Who gives a shit? Right. That I can live with, but it wasn't that.

It was almost like a, this is, I don't want, I'm not ready for this conversation. I'm not ready to be a part of it. So I'm just going to stay out of it. And they thought that was neutral. But it wasn't neutral because it allowed that 5% to be incredibly loud. That's what a lot of times these days, the five, the one, we're all listening to that super, super, super minority. And we should be just ignoring completely. Yeah.

So you do this and then you go into psychology. And I said to you, your mom was a big reason you went into psychology. Yeah, yeah. So you go from the NBA. Were you studying that in school? Yeah. Okay, so you were taking... So I studied undergraduate at Penn State psychology.

I started my grad studies in my last year because I transferred and so there's an extra year in there. And I started my grad studies while I was in Penn State. And then I continued the distance education while I played in the league. So it's great. And then you continued, obviously, after you got out. Well, no, by the time I got out, I already had a PhD. You did all that while you were playing in everything?

everything too? There's a lot of downtime. Damn, dude. I mean, it's... I hear you. Look, it sounds better than it does because if you're on a luxury plane with an entire four-top table this big to yourself, money enough to have a laptop, my laptop was about that thick, but money enough to have a laptop and able to type away while somebody brings you the P.F. Chang's that you'd ordered on the ground, right? It's like, I understand that it takes a commitment to do it, and I was tired, right? You could have been in a bad gambling or whatever. Listen, the gambling stuff, I don't know what it's like nowadays, so I can't speak to it right now, but it blew my mind.

The idea that people would lose, what did you lose? I lost $40. I was like, you lost $40,000? Are you crazy? And it was $40,000 you lost. It'll come out in the wash, like over the course of the season. I said, I don't have that kind of wash. That's what I'm saying.

We used to give the flight attendants, and they deserved every person. penny of it. We used to give them money at the, uh, at the, um, at the end of the, Christmas, Christmas, just as a reward, right? And I think this is when it was in Utah and Carl came up to me. He's like, yeah, don't forget, we're giving, we're giving money to the flight tenants. And so it's five. So just remember to have it next time. Five in cash. I was like, no problem. And so I went to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the bank and I got $500 out and I brought it back. And I said, here's my five.

And he just looked at me like I was a crazy person. He said it's $5,000. And the thing is, please don't understand. Misunderstand me. They totally deserve whatever they get. Five thousand is more appropriate. It just didn't even twig in my mind that we'd be talking in thousands. And I have never had $5,000 or pounds or your,

euros in my hand ever. I'm not frugal, right? I've spent money, but he's been on a card. And he said, no, don't worry, I'll spot you. And out of his cowboy jeans pulls this wad like this and just go checka, chicken, chicken, chicken. I was like, this is a, like, they're on that. He's getting out of his big rig. Right.

They're not just levels of talent in the league. There are just levels of like aura in the league. And I wasn't in that high level. But you're seeing these guys throw that money away. though, on a flight. It was amazing. Losing $40,000 going on a flight. Right. And the other thing was that was the era of Jacob the jeweler, too. Oh, yeah. That was the era of Jacob the jeweler, and he had made it so that the thing to have was a gold chain encrusted in diamonds with a medallion that was your face. Oh, you get, I didn't know about the face. A medallion

that was your face. I remember how much of these things, Ryan? I listened, I didn't even ask. I saw it on one of the places. Who had one with their own face on it? I'm not saying it. He walked onto the plane with it. And it wasn't just me. Some of the vets looked at him like. And he walked onto plane with this thing.

And it's like, and the chains, you don't realize. Rope. They are not thin. And they couldn't be to hold this thing. I never held it. I feel some regret because I'm like, I just would have liked to hold that much golden diamonds. Just in my hands, right?

What I did used to do is ask my teammates if I could sit in their car. Who had the best one? I had a Jeep, Grang Cherokee. That's what you're driving? You're comfortable in a 6-8 man, 6-9 and a Cherokee? It was awful, but it was the car that I got. I paid for it with the money that was left to me when my mom passed away. So that was the first thing I bought.

And then I switched to a Donali. I don't know what it is. but some kind of GMC thing, right? And then, so my teammates would come in, and I remember Andericurelenko coming in in a brand new Porsche SUV. I was like, that thing is special. Can I sit in your car?

So I sat in this car before a game. And, oh, what was his name? He was the guard. He was utterly brilliant. The guard who was with Houston. I can't remember his name. Cassell? No, it's been, no, no.

Amazing point guard. Brilliant. Anyway, he drove in with a Rolls-Royce. It was the first Rolls-Royce that I'd ever seen in my life. First Rolls-Royce. The suicide doors opens up. I was like, that's amazing. Yeah, can I sit in it?

He was like, no. No, he said no. I've only just got this. The only ass or the only ass that's going to be, and this is mine. I said, that's fun. Sid, you can touch the carpets. So I touched the lamb carpets. It was amazing, I'll tell you.

So how has being a psychologist helped you and how has it helped you help others? You know, you've gone through quite a bit. Your history maker all the way through. How's that helped you? I often think that the skills I have now would have been really useful if I had them while I played. Because I don't know that I was as mentally strong as I could have been. Maybe I'd have played more years in the league. Maybe I would have had better success in places.

I found really difficult, like Utah. How many years did you get total? Six. Six. Yeah. And so maybe it would have been better. The thing I love is that now I was always pretty average as an NBA player. I'm an all-star at this.

It sounds really arrogant, but I'm good at this. This is something I've worked hard at and I'm good at. And the really fun part is it's much easier for me to be good at this. Like focusing on people when I'm talking to them. uh really doing this the study behind behind the conversations i have doing the extra research to find out some new thing that will help me that stuff is like second nature to me so it's been brilliant to work with people i work with a lot of very senior people who are managing the turbulence of the times how to lead through this craziness i work with a lot of people who are transitioning

they're very talented and they're about to make that next big step to become partners in large organizations or very senior people or set out on their own as entrepreneurs. It's really cool. It requires that I learn a ton about industries I never knew about. Who knew I would know stuff about like the construction industry or, you know, even high finance and P.E. and stuff like that. So this is, this is my all-star job. Yeah, I love hearing that. You're an amazing man, John. Good for you, dude. Thank you for doing this. That's a pleasure. It's been a pleasure to have you here. Before I let you go, we promote one more time. I want to know advice you'd give to 16-year-old John.

Just, I think this is for every kid. But love your body, man. Just bask in it. Don't do that thing where you spend your 16-year-olds thinking about, oh, I'm a bit fat, I'm a bit this, I'm a bit lanky. Just love that thing because it doesn't, it betrays you later on. You sure does. But in those, I was watching a kid, this sounds weird, but I was, I was in the airport, and there was this kid that kept on getting up out of his seat without using his hands.

He had to pose a while. Great. I'm going to try. I had to be careful because I was looking, and he did it once and got up just to randomly walk around and sat down, and he sat down without using his hands. I have to do a three-point thing to sit on the toilet nowadays, right? And it's like, because my knees just will not. They won't do that, right? Or at least there's a risk of catastrophic failure.

And I'm afraid the porcelain will not take that kind of weight coming down in it. And so just 16-year-old, just bask in that body of yours because it may not be perfect, but it is operating at about as good as it ever will. And it's going to be resilient and bounce back. Just love that thing. Don't do anything special with it. Just love the fact that you've got it and go about your business. It's great advice.

It really is. I want to say this, too, because I don't. don't ever say anything after this, but I had a near-death experience. And at the time, I'm going in, just in my day-to-day, a few days before that, my weight, my this, my that, whatever. Everything that I was that day, even if it was five pounds overweight or whatever it was, it saved my fucking life that day. That day, I was exactly how I should have been. And from that moment, I'm like, all right, we can definitely get in better shape, but let's not beat ourselves up so fucking much like yes let's not beat ourselves also i wish i could go back to 16 year old me and say this

is what you look like when you're 52 you got your teeth you got your hair you know what i mean you're not a you're not on a rascal like we're good bro we're good that's exactly right john thank you so much one more time everything promoted all right there appreciate it thank you come and find me on social media linked in instagram and ticot i think of the main three and buy my new book it's not magic the ordinary skills of exceptional leaders Thank you, my man. A pleasure. Go get the book.

As always, Ryan Sickler on all your social media. Thank you guys. We'll talk to you all next week. Thank you.