The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - Ex City Official Questions CRHA Downtown Deal; Northrop Grumman Builds $200M Waynesboro Spot

Episode Date: February 5, 2024

The I Love CVille Show headlines: Ex City Official Questions CRHA Downtown Deal Northrop Grumman Builds $200M Waynesboro Spot CVille Leaders Promise To Challenge Developers Is Govt. Challenging Developers A Good Thing? Inaugural Device & Tech Expo Displays Innovation Miami at UVA (-6.5), 7PM, ESPN; UVA 2nd In ACC 12 Spots To Enjoy Bowl Of Soup Around CVille Peter Krebs Will Be Guest On Tuesday’s Show Read Viewer & Listener Comments Live On-Air The I Love CVille Show airs live Monday – Friday from 12:30 pm – 1:30 pm on The I Love CVille Network. Watch and listen to The I Love CVille Show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, iTunes, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Fountain, Amazon Music, Audible and iLoveCVille.com.

be with you guys first day of the week. It is the first Monday of February in 2024. Live in downtown Charlottesville, one block off the downtown mall, half a block from the Charlottesville Police Department, one block away from the Albemarle County and City of Charlottesville courthouses, right smack dab in the middle of the law firms, the financial offices, the hedge funds, a mile from the John Paul Jones Arena, Scott Stadium, and the University of Virginia. A lot we're going to cover on today's program. Take a look at the screen for the headlines.

We really have unpacked the CRHA moves on this program. And Dave McNair of the website, the DTM, Dave McNair, a former investigative journalist for The Hook, I very much missed The Hook. I thought it was, many of us foursome of investigative talent, he now runs a website called the DTM. And in covering this CRHA deal where they're planning on essentially trading a property on Avon and a property on Levy to the city for $4 million, taking part of that $4 million and buying a building on the downtown mall. I had flags and antennas up all of last week. I questioned the deal. I questioned the viability of the deal. I asked, why would you buy a building not set up for an office and try to convert it into a headquarters? Why would the

CRHA, a housing authority, take buildings in the city on Avon and Levy that could be affordable housing or convert it into affordable housing and sell them to the city on Avon and Levy that could be affordable housing or converted into affordable housing and sell them to the city so they could buy a tower on the mall. I wondered who was calling the shots here. And Dave McNair has now interviewed a former city official about this transaction. And we're going to relay those highlights to you on today's program. I think the former, you know, I don't have any insight on this at all. I think the former city official that he interviewed who is unnamed is Dave Norris, friend of the program. Dave Norris at one time served as the chair of the Charlottesville Redevelopment and Housing Authority Board of Commissioners. He was also a redevelopment coordinator for the CRHA.

He and Dave are friends. That's my hunch of who this unnamed source is, but I do not have any insight. Also on today's program, I want to unpack what Juan Diego Wade and Sam Sanders said on the record of how Charlottesville government is going to take an even more active role. I mean, I think their exact words were, Judah, we promise to push developers to work with local neighborhoods with their projects. If this doesn't spook developers in the free market, I'm not sure what will.

We'll unpack that on today's program. I want to talk Northrop Grumman cracking ground on a $200 million Waynesboro facility. A $200 million Waynesboro facility, ladies and gentlemen, they've now broken ground that will lead to 300 new hires at an average of $94,000 per hire.

That topic on today's show. Judah wants to talk inaugural device and tech expo displays innovation. He's going to unpack that topic for us on the program. We'll talk soups on today's show as we try to bring you a robust palette of content. Perfect day for soup. I'm a man who likes a good French onion soup. Petit Poix on your list had a great French onion soup. I was blown away by the La Michoacana soup that you highlighted on iloveceville.com.

It's in the lead slot on iloveceville.com. Judas, 12 spots for soup on a cold day. The La Michoacana soup, you posted the photo on I Love Siebel Instagram. Is it a tilapia and shrimp soup? Yeah. It literally has fish and shrimp in the soup. It's amazing. Yeah.

Maybe you grab that photo and see if we can put it on screen when we get to that point. The lead of the show, before you do, is got to be Catherine Loughner. Welcome to the program. Guys, give the show a like and a share anywhere you are watching the program. We work hard for you. The only thing we ask is you share the show, you like the show, you retweet the show. Ginny Hu, thank you for doing that. Deep Throat, welcome to the program.

John Blair, welcome to the program. Thank you kindly for joining us. I think a lot of you guys really make the program great. James Watson, hello. Johnny Ornalis, Vanessa Parkhill, Travis Hackworth, Holly Foster, hello. Ely Tucker, Katie Pearl, Kevin Higgins, Albert Graves, just to name a few. Let's get to the lead of the story. Did we not, as you weave in a two-shot, did we not all last week question what was going on with the Charlottesville Redevelopment and Housing Authority? Yeah. I mean, it's just curious.

From who they're selling it to, to how they're selling it, to how much they're selling it for. I'll do a synopsis of what we questioned last week, and then we will get to the fresh content from the DTM. Dave McNair, an investigative journalist who quoted a former city official,

I think it's Dave Norris, who was previously on the board of CRHA. Last week I said, why would the city purchase two freestanding buildings, one on Avon and one on Levy, from a redevelopment and housing authority for $4 million using American Rescue Funds, American Rescue Act money, money that was intended to be used during the pandemic to stimulate the economy, right? Yeah. That's what we said. Also, I said

this on the program. Why would CRHA sell to buildings that they can convert into affordable housing? A much easier conversion than a tower on the downtown mall. Yeah. I also said, why would they be buying a building in such a high spot? Thank you, Keith. Why would they be buying a building in such a costly area of Thank you, Keith. Why would they be buying a building in such a costly area of real estate, right? On the downtown mall.

Also on the program last week, I said, who is calling the shots for CRHA? I said, how much is the conversion of those few apartments on the top floor going to cost? I said, how much is the conversion of those few apartments on the top floor going to cost? I said, how much was the conversion going to cost for the spaces within the building? Yeah. Now you have reporters asking the same questions as us. First thing that jumped out to you from Dave McNair's story?

I mean, the first thing that immediately jumped out was the fact that some people are putting the price on the Levy properties, Levy and Avon properties, at $11 million. What Judah means by that, Avon. Avon properties at $11 million. So... What Judah means by that, should or had the Redevelopment and Housing Authority

gone the open market, the free market, to sell these buildings, folks had priced or valued these two pieces of property at $11 million. They're selling to the city at a haircut of $4 million. That's a hell of a haircut. No doubt.

That should raise our red flags. Why are two buildings being transferred from a housing authority to the city for $4 million when they can go on the open market for $11 million. And they even paid someone, Northern Real Estate Urban Ventures, to complete a report, and the report anticipated they could have made between $7 million and $11 million

in a market rate sale. I mean, why would you pay for a report and then ignore it? This is all in Dave McNair's story, The DTM, where he highlights an unnamed source who previously worked for the Charlottesville Redevelopment and Housing Authority. You pay a consultant to value two properties that you own. The consultant comes up with a price tag of how much? They said they could have made between $7 and $11 million. Instead, they're going to sell to the city for how much?

$4.1 million. Does that make sense? Not to me. Not to me. What else struck you from the article that you just read? I mean, that was the... What else struck you? I mean, we've talked about this.

Is the downtown mall the right place for this business? Not even a business. It's a housing authority. Right. Not even a business. Whose mission is to create housing affordability. Yeah. But I would think that property on the downtown mall would claim a much higher price

than something just about anywhere else. I'm not sure I follow what you just said. If you're, like you said, in the business of creating affordable housing, why spend more than you would need to for offices on the downtown mall when you could probably get offices at a much more affordable price? Elsewhere. Elsewhere. Anywhere else. Anywhere else. Why even purchase?

Why even purchase? Why even purchase something when there's a plethora of empty offices around the city with landlords begging for folks to rent them at discounted rates? Why even purchase when you have remodeling and maintenance and upkeep? I can kind of understand how it becomes an asset for them, but at the same time, it's also taking...

They don't pay taxes on property they own. So they weren't paying taxes on the... It's only an asset if they sell it. It's not an asset if they sell it. It's not an asset. A lot of people have this misconception with real estate. A lot of people have this misconception. There's this saying out there for folks that own real estate. Real estate rich, cash poor.

All fine and dandy, you own real estate. But the reality is is it's not liquid until you sell it you don't have any liquid you don't have any liquidity now you can rent some of it and you can utilize that rent to create some liquidity

but the reality is your upkeep and your maintenance often times is offset by your liquidity liquidity, but the reality is your upkeep and your maintenance oftentimes is offset by your liquidity. It just makes no sense to me here. Yeah. And now other folks in media are starting to highlight what we talked about on this

talk show. Someone answer me what is going on and it's a perfect segue into the next topic on the show which Judah and I talked about in our pre-production meeting about the city promising to work closely

with developers in projects around Charlottesville, saying that the developers are now going to not only answer to them, but they're going to have to answer to neighborhoods with their projects. And they highlight the Woodard project on Cherry, right? Sam Sanders and Juan Diego Wade? Yeah.

I got this text message from a developer who listens to the show he said this sent me the link to the Charlottesville Tomorrow article with the headline Charlottesville leaders promise to push developers to work with neighborhoods and the developer

says this and the world goes round and round and round. F this. Buy right or bust, baby. It's easy for the Woodards to do this given they've owned it forever. Try buying something new and spend two years listening and negotiating

on an agreement that hamstrings you. This is nuts. That's what the developer who listens to this talk show texted me on Saturday morning after listening to the shows this past week. There's a quote from Sanders

that says, you have to think about what you're doing, and you have to come back with a better proposal. And your proposal needs to include the things that you hear neighborhood residents talk about, because they're not going anywhere. You might not get done what you want to do, but they're not going anywhere. So does that mean that if you don't get your proposal right after two years of negotiation, you have to go back to the drawing board and spend another two years developing.

Does anyone have any idea the carrying costs of something like this? We learned this from Paul McCarter on Thursday's edition of the Kyle Miller Show, right? Yeah. I found the show fascinating let's put a synopsis together you and me of what paul mccarter who's a realtor told kyle miller on the kyle miller show thursdays at 2 15 p.m on the i love seville network paul mccarter purchased a piece of land down Avon Street Extended. Yeah. It is past where Mountain View Elementary is currently located.

Was it down near the end? It's almost at the end. You have a very good memory, Judah, where Avon and Scottsville Road meet. It's one plot of land past the end. So one plot of the land closer to the city. All right. Because he said that there were two pieces of land past the end. So one plot of the land closer to the city. Right. Because he said that there were two pieces of land right where Avon and Scottsville met

that offered different opportunities than his land, which was adjacent to those. He is now at the Community Advisory Committee portion of development. He bought the land, Paul McCarter did, and initially wanted to build apartments. I think the number he threw out was 32, if memory serves correct. I think you're right. 32 apartments. Affordable apartments. Apartments where he was going to prioritize affordability with these 32 of them. What was he told by the county? You can't do it.

They told him he could not do it. Those were his words. You cannot do it. Why? I don't remember the exact details, but I think it was just... It was tied to the density and the location.

So he's pivoted his model from 32 apartments rooted in a foundation of affordability to eight townhouses. Two rows, eight townhouses total, one row of five, and another row of three. He's at the community advisory committee portion of the development project, which is before the planning commission and which is before the board of supervisors. He needs to go through this entire process, community advisory committee, planning commission, board of supervisors, to be able to get finalized plans of what he can do. And he needs the finalized plans of what he's legally allowed to do by Albemarle County to get the funding or the financing for the project. He cannot get the funding or financing of the project until he has the plans and is given the green light of what he can do

from Albemarle. So in the meantime, he's got the carrying costs or the debt associated with purchasing the land. He's got the cost associated with architects and engineers of many kind. The debt associated with attorneys and legal work. He went before the Community Advisory Committee meeting very recently. He told Kyle Miller on the Kyle Miller Show this past Thursday. And in this meeting, they surprised him with something.

What did they surprise realtor developer Paul McCarter with? I don't remember that part. You need a playground. Oh, yeah. he went to this meeting and went from 32 apartments to eight townhomes and in the cac meeting they said you're going to need a playground for kids he said this is eight townhomes. At best, we're anticipating one child living in this community of eight townhomes. One child in the eight townhomes, we anticipate, will live here. And the CAC still said... Build a playground.

Build a playground. Paul priced the playgrounds, commercial playgrounds for a project like this. What was the cost for a commercial playground like this a project like this. What was the cost for a commercial playground like this? Was it something like $60,000? Between $30,000 and $35,000. I was a little over. Between $30,000 and $35,000. Yeah. Shared amongst the eight units. I mean, he's just not going to give $35,000 to a project that's sprinkled over the projects the units that he's building yeah so he went with an idea a realtor a guy who comes at it from a great place in the same interview paul mccarter talked about how when when um his mom and dad got divorced he went with his

father with the divorce and his father and paul when they, when Paul was a kid, they moved into a trailer park because at the time they, his, his dad was in a, in a, in a, in a financial pickle. So he's coming at this with a good spot or a good place of trying to create housing affordability for people because he was raised at one portion of his life in a trailer because of financial difficulties coming from a divorce. County says you can't do it. Goes to eight townhomes. What was the price tag he's probably at with those eight townhomes?

Oh, man, $500,000? Over $500,000 at this point. Yeah. Over $500,000 at this point. Yeah. Over 500 grand at this point. No longer affordable. Right on the cusp of Avon and Scottsville Road. Yeah. Is that still the urban ring?

That might be right on the cusp of the urban ring. I'd probably put it in there. We'll call it the urban ring. Yeah. This is the point of what we're making here. The first, the theme of the first 26 minutes of the talk show. When the government, and we'll get to your comments and your questions, your statements here in a matter of moments. When the government gets involved with things like this,

it doesn't streamline the process. It doesn't make it more efficient. It doesn't make it more affordable. Definitely not. It doesn't even necessarily make it better for the community. What it does is it makes it more costly.

The developer who texted me who watches this program, said the Woodards were able to work closely with the neighborhood because they'd owned this land for a long, long, long, long, long period of time. So their carrying costs were nil.

If a developer, a small one like Paul, who just purchased land, if the county or the city said you're going to have to wait two, three years before you can start driving revenue or selling or renting inventory, they would be bled dry. They would not be able to withstand that kind of process.

Especially if the process involves repeatedly going back and having to change plans and renegotiate, conversate, fireside chat, kiss babies, shake hands, bust out the guitar, the s'mores, the chocolate, and sing Kumbaya by the campfire. That all costs money. Yeah. And then there's the possibility that someone in the neighborhood, like what happened with, was it the third phase of the dairy market properties

get shut down? And they had I believe had included some affordable housing or some affordable apartments in that, if I'm not mistaken. Phase 3 dairy market. Yeah. Catherine Lockner, welcome to the program.

Philip Dow, Logan Wells, Clay Lowe, Lynn Snyder, welcome to the program. Thank you kindly for watching. Folks in Richmond, welcome to the program. Waynesboro, welcome to the program. Waynesboro, welcome to the program. Short Pump, Louisa, Orange, Fulana, Crozet, Green. Barbersville, on our heat map. Many in Northern Virginia, welcome to the program. Let's get to comments. Let's get some photos on screen.

Key members of the family watching right now. I'd love to go to number one in the family first, in Deep Throat. His photo on screen. Let us know when it's on there, if you could. There it is. It's on screen now. Take a look at Deep Throat's photo. He says this. This is the Avon Levy study summary result.

He's talking about the CRHA sale of the two houses, one on Avon, or two properties, one on Avon, or two properties, one on Avon, one on Levy. This is where the $11 million valuation comes from. It's interesting that they talk about 100 units and build a cost of over $60 million, $600K per unit. That in itself is yet another data point telling you that housing is expensive here because building housing is expensive quite apart from land costs. He says, I can think of one reason for CRHA to own rather than rent. A landlord will have to pay property tax and build that into CRHA's rent, but CRHA doesn't pay property tax if they own it.

But that is a fairly small savings. It's still probably better for them to rent for flexibility and because there are some deals out there, massive deals out there. Massive, massive, massive office deals out there. Landlords all over the city begging for a tenant like this, a government-backed tenant that's going to guarantee the rent and not default on a lease. This is the perfect tenant if you're a landlord and you have open office space. He's also not a huge fan of Sam Sanders and Juan Diego Way getting involved

in the development process. We'll go to John Blair. He's watching the program on LinkedIn. He says, Cafe 88, when you get to your soups story, is underappreciated for soups and should be on your list, J-dubs. It's a great spot.

And he says, Jerry, you make an interesting point about carrying costs. In a lot of land use approval dependent deals, there used to be the ability for a developer to option the property contingent upon receiving approvals. However, when a locality goes to a more community intensive model of land use decision-making, will landowners even grant an option for 18 to 24 months? If not, then you're probably handcuffing development. Very few developers can outright purchase the fee simple without having the land use approvals. Bingo.

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo. From Blair on LinkedIn. We are asking questions that are tough questions that are unabashed and unafraid questions. And as we asked them last week, others started asking similar questions. I'm curious why you wouldn't go to the open market and try to make $11 million with these two pieces of property. I'm curious why you would sell for $4 million to the city.

I'm curious why you would take your headquarters and put it in one of the most expensive districts in the city if you're in the game of building affordable housing. I'm curious why you would target a building that needs extensive remodeling. Some would even call perhaps a lot of the building tear down inside to build office space i'm curious why you would target an elevator building

i'm curious why you would position this in a shopping dining and entertainment district yeah i'm curious why you wouldn't allocate the money to affordable housing if that is in fact your mission i'm curious why you would try to create a to affordable housing, if that is, in fact, your mission. I'm curious why you would try to create a retail incubator on the ground floor when retail is dying. I'm curious of what a retail incubator even is. There was that one time, I'll give you a little history lesson. My wife and I were doing some reading last night on the interwebs. And there was a gentleman by the name of Stanley Epstein. He and his wife, Marilyn, own the hardware store on the downtown mall.

Do you know what the hardware store building was? It was a restaurant. Yeah. Remember? Yeah, vaguely. They used to have liters of beer that you could drink with a straw. They literally served you a liter of beer. With a straw?

How else would you drink a liter? I mean, would you be holding it out in front of you? It was a liter. Like, how do you drink a liter of beer unless you have a straw? Okay. You see the difficulty of holding a liter up? I guess.

It's a massive long tube. The hardware store had the front of its building was kind of like this hodgepodge retail storefront that offered these little like, almost like farmer's market, what would you call stalls? Almost like these little stalls at the front of the restaurant. And these little stalls offered businesses the opportunity

to try to see if their business would work at an affordable monthly rent. So the hardware store, the primary focus was this awesome American restaurant that had, let's see here, I want to get it. It opened in 1976, the hardware store, the restaurant. It was one of the first restaurants on the mall. It opened right as, in fact, I think it was the first restaurant on the mall. According to this article in the CVO Weekly, it was the first restaurant. Can you find when C&O Restaurant opened for me? C&O Restaurant, when that opened. If you could, please, sir.

The hardware store opened in 1976. I would love to see when C&O, when Sandy McAdams opened the C&O. Please, sir. When the hardware store opened on the downtown mall, it was just converted to a pedestrian mall. And its owner, Stan Epstein, was quoted by local media with saying this, quote, you could have shot a cannon down the downtown mall and not hit anyone, end quote. In fact, as he was putting up the sign on his business, a passerby stopped him and said, I will give you a couple of years before you close your door. But he had significant success and longevity.

Significant success in longevity. They closed in 2006. 30-year run for a restaurant. The hardware store in the beginning, in the front of it, had this hodgepodge mix of retail. And it allowed businesses to see if their model would work. That could be considered a retail incubator. The difference was then retail was popular.

The internet hadn't cannibalized it. It had momentum behind it. In 2024, retail does not have momentum behind it. When was the C&O created? The building's been around for quite a while. When's the restaurant? The restaurant was started in 1976. So same time.

These are your first two restaurants open in the mall. C&O's still talked about because it's still open. Yeah. Ask questions. We as taxpayers should ask questions. Lynn Snyder watching the program. Thank you for watching the show. Kevin Yancey says, Judah, I think the dairy market pushback has to do with what it will do to homeowners close to the projects, close to phase three. Right. pushback has to do with what it will do to homeowners close to the projects, close to phase three. You're 100% right, Kevin. The pushback on phase three dairy market has to do with gentrification and how it will change the landscape and character of 10th and Page. 100%. And phase three dairy market would change the landscape and character of 10th and Page. Yeah. It would. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

You can't say you want more housing to create affordability than kill housing because it affects landscape and character. Right. That's called... Is it disingenuous? Is it hypocrisy? Whatever the word you want to pick, you pick. Viewers and listeners can pick.

Bill McChesney watching the program. He says there will be delays during the process for inspections. When the inspections occur, the inspectors may arbitrarily add unforeseen requirements. Carly pushes back on that. Wagner, get Bill and Carly's photos on screen. And Carly Wagner says, Bill McChesney, inspectors cannot do anything except enforce code. If a county inspector asks for something, they must source the code reference. You've got to know your codes inside and out.

Carly, an engineer. I want to make sure I have that right. Carly Wagner. You've got her photo on screen? Yeah. She is going to her profile, so I make sure I get this right. A senior engineer at WDP and Associates.

She knows what's up. Like when you watch the program Bill and Carly. Bill used to work for Ari Lee and he's highlighting it. He said, I worked for Ari Lee when they upfitted the hardware store restaurant during the mall construction. Nice.

Read Dave McNair's story on the DTM. I sent you the link. I'll take the link. Dave McNair, we're giving you some props here. Someone tell Dave McNair you're giving him some props. I'm going to put the link from Dave McNair's story in the comments section of my Facebook page. I'm putting it in the comments section of the I Love Seville Facebook page right now.

That has 7,000 followers. Almost 7,000. Oh, it just posted. I'm going to put it in the comments section of my Facebook page. My Facebook page has 6,200 followers. I'm putting it in the comments section of the I Love Seville group, 4,200 followers. I'm going to put it in the comment section of my LinkedIn page. I think that has 6,500 followers.

I'm putting it in the comment section of ILoveSeville food, 7,500 followers. And then I'm going to put it on Twitter and then retweet it five times to roughly 25,000 followers on that platform. Let me put that in here. Please read this story from David McNair anything you want to dot or cross before we go to the next topic Judah no set the stage for the next one, if you could, please, sir. I think it's very exciting. There's a lot of interesting stuff going on in Charlottesville that we don't generally hear a lot about. I don't see a lot of people covering stuff like this inaugural device,

the device and tech expo. This is the first one. And I think it really showcases that there's more to Charlottesville than just a place that ends up on a lot of people's top ten lists. What excites you about it? I think it's great that there's innovation going on. I mean, uh, I don't think a lot of people know that, uh, somebody here in Charlottesville,

uh, basically created the first male, um, uh, what do you call it? Uh, device for preventing pregnancies. Contraceptive? Yeah, contraceptive. It's a local company. I believe it's called Contraline. And the product is called Atom, the first implanted male contraceptive. Make sure you're updating that lower third if you could, please. I'm excited for it as well.

I think we continue to head in the direction of Austin, Texas, has a menage a trois with Greenwich, Connecticut and with Vail. And Charlottesville is the result. Austin meets Vail meets Greenwich. You get Charlottesville. Little resort town. Primo University with research and innovation. Old money wealth.

All colliding with each other at the same time. And you get this. I was surprised that the city, according to the Weldon Cooper demographers, demographers? Demographer? You're talking about people who... Yes. Demographers?

I guess. I was surprised that Charlottesville's population has dipped. I'm curious if that trend continues. But Charlottesville dipping slightly is way counterbalanced with Albemarle County increasing, Louisa increasing, and all the surrounding counties around Charlottesville upticking. Yeah. And I was reading a story today on news.virginia.edu, which is the media arm for the University of Virginia, where now they're covering what Hamilton Lombard and the Weldon Koofer demographers have released with their 2023 Virginia County and City Population Estimates Analysis. And the headline that was released by Brian McKenzie, who was a former columnist of the

Daily Progress. I worked at the Daily Progress when Brian McKenzie was a columnist. I watched Brian McKenzie go from writing a column three days a week, being one of the stars of the newspaper. His sole job was to write a column three days a week. To Brian becoming a Monday through Friday hard news reporter, no longer column. To Brian editing the newspaper and working nights. Now he works in PR and content creation for the University of Virginia. He's an assistant editor of UVA Today and the Office of University Communications. And the headline of the story that he just released or published or wrote was remote workers becoming even more remote. Basically, because of remote work, you can work from anywhere.

And why, if you can work from anywhere, if you're a remote worker, would you choose to work in a high or expensive or costly area to live? And then I asked this question after reading it. This was the question I asked. Is remote work good or bad for Charlottesville? Because Charlottesville is obviously becoming extremely expensive. Will people start looking at Charlottesville as almost the redheaded stepchild or redheaded sister or the younger brother of Northern Virginia and choose to peace from Charlottesville and then head to the outer counties surrounding it to do their remote work. Is that driving Louise's growth? Another example of this is according to the

demographers of Weldon Cooper, Richmond's population over the three-year period of 2020 to 2023 2020 to 2023 spiked 40,000 citizens. Richmond offers what, Judah? Richmond offers affordability. Right, exactly. It offers affordability when compared to Charlottesville.

So is that one of the reasons people are moving to Richmond? Do you think the remote work is good for Charlottesville long term if we continue heading in this direction? Not really. I think if people can come in with inflated bank accounts and buy properties, then we're going to continue on the track that we're on currently. And affordability is just going to be a catch word that doesn't really mean anything. Doesn't mean anything. Pomp and circumstance.

How can we be prioritizing affordability if a housing authority is buying buildings instead of creating housing affordability? That's a fair question. Yeah. It's the antithesis of affordability. It's taking a building that was creating tax revenue for the city off the tax rolls. Not to mention using money that people have pointed out could have been used to create an awful lot of

affordable housing. They could have sold Avon and Levy for what the consultant said, basically an appraiser that they hired for close to $11 million. Instead, they're taking four and buying a building on the mall that only has three apartments on the top floor. And if they had sold it for more,

could they have used the excess money for projects or for affordable housing somewhere? Putting that money towards developers who would create affordable housing somewhere. Putting that money towards developers who would create affordable housing. Catherine Lockner, I appreciate your comment. Holly Foster watching at Henrico said she has fond memories of the hardware store and the C&O. Had many meals at both

when she was in Charlottesville for business. One fantastic store on the mall was Smith's of Bermuda, the place to go to find wedding dresses in the 1980s. She used to love the downtown mall, Holly Foster said. Can we get her photo on

screen? I love when she watches the program in Henrico. Marie Marshall Barnes, hello. Thank you for watching the show. Ginny, whose photo, if we can get on screen. So she absolutely misses the hardware store. It was a great place.

This comes in via Facebook Messenger. Deep Throat with a great point about government-backed tenant. If they rented under a 10-year lease from a local commercial property owner, that would stabilize a possible anchor spot in a commercial building as a credit tenant that could go a long way to helping a local commercial operator secure their next refinance in a market where banks are tightening and exposing lots of credit risk to local operators over the next three years. Could be a win-win-win. There is dozens of landlords that would have given a cherry lease to the CRHA. And then they could have utilized that cherry lease, which would have been hugely beneficial for CRHA,

to go to the bank and say, look at what we secured as a tenant for a five- to ten-year period of time. Please, dear God, help us refinance the floating debt we have on this building. And then a banker could have said, wow, that is a government-backed tenant in an extended lease with you.

You have security in this building. You are much more appealing to us as a client. Yes, we will work with you on this floating debt that you have that is crushing your financials. And we will offer something more advantageous for you. No doubt. We called this on the show as soon as Sean Tubbs Tubs broke this news. Talk to us about what you highlighted with the soups. I thought this was a good human interest story. My wife loves these type of stories. Set the stage if you could, please. I mean, the stage is that it's the middle of winter. And I can't imagine anyone who doesn't love a good bowl of soup. A good warm bowl of soup.

I love soup. Warms your body. Warms your soul. Yes. Yes, it does. Chinese proverb. Fortune cookie. Warms your your body warms your soul yes there you go yes it does um and so i wanted to take a look around and find out some of the best spots for for getting soup and

we've highlighted some great places, some more obvious than others. Places like Bodo's. Bodo's? The first place you reference is Bodo's? Yeah, I mean, they've got soup every day. I know they do, but, you know, okay. Go ahead.

I'm not stopping you. Talk to us about Bodo's and soup, Judah. I mean, I'm just talking about places that are great spots to find a good bowl of soup. Love it. Can't wait to hear it. Every day. Bodo's, revolutionary soup. Okay. bowl of soup. Love it. Can't wait to hear it. Every day. Bodo's Revolutionary Soup. Okay.

Revolutionary Soup, good one. Have you had the tomato basil at Tillman's? No, I haven't. It's fantastic. If you guys like tomato soup and a grilled cheese, one of the best combinations that you're going to find is on the downtown mall, Tillman's. They're also the owner of Tonic on Market Street.

You sit at their bar in the back. You have grilled cheese and some tomato soup, and you will absolutely love it. The Revolutionary Soup, have you been there recently for soup? Not in the last year or so. I very much suggest their tomato basil or their loaded baked potato soup. I've had both recently. I basil or their loaded baked potato soup. I've had both recently. I've had their loaded

baked potato. Loaded baked potato soup is to die for. Have you had the loaded baked potato soup? It's phenomenal. It's good stuff. It's absolutely phenomenal. Have you went... Bagby's. What's that? Bagby's is a great

spot. I think it's usually Fridays when they have the correct recipe. When they've got all the stuff they need for the recipe, they'll have the New England clam chowder, which is amazing. Oftentimes I miss it. I get there too late, but when I'm there early enough, that's one of their definite highlights. My wife wants to meet for soup in 10 minutes. Petit Pois. Brian Helleberg owns Petit Pois. Have you had the French onion soup? I'm not a big French onion soup fan.

What? Why do you not like French onion soup? Melted cheese? Just never done it for me. What are your soups that you like? Are you putting some of these photos on screen? Which photo do you have that we can highlight on screen and then let me know the soups that you like? Let's see.

Here we have the tilapia and shrimp soup. This is from La Mucha Cana on High Street. Oh, my gosh. This looks amazing. Look at the screen. It's on screen. Yeah. Tilapia and shrimp.

What a combination. Yeah. That looks amazing. Now, I'd go there for the tacos. I would not think to order soup, but maybe I think twice. Same here. I've always gone there for the tacos or the orace, but I'm definitely going to have to try the soup there.

Erin King watching the program from Feast. We highlighted Feast. Love what she does at Feast. Love Feast. Purple building on Main Street. What other photos can you put on screen? Let's see. Is that the only one you have ready to go?

I can probably pop another one in there. Let's see. What are you going to put on there? How about something from Feast? Okay. A little broccoli cheddar action from Feast? Yeah. Broccoli and cheddar is one of my top soups.

Yeah, broccoli and cheddar is a great soup. I cannot pass up a New England clam chowder. That's my absolute top. But broccoli and cheddar is a close second. All right, get some other photos on there. Who makes the best New England clam chowder and towel? Oh, man. That's a tough one.

Here's some Tillman's soup and sandwich. Bagby's makes one of the best New England clam chowders in town. Like I said, it's not always easy to get. It sells out like that. But if you get there early enough on a Friday and they've made it, definitely give it a try. It's 100% worth it. We'll give it a try. I haven't tried that, Judah. Jim Hinchley says, and Jim, we're going to respond to your email after this show. I say that email is an absolute go. I love the idea, Jim. I sincerely mean that. We are going

to respond to your email, and that is a go, your idea. He says this, great soup, the Tom Yum at Pineapple's Thai Kitchen on Preston Avenue by Cardinal Hall. Nice. Kit does an amazing job. Kit is a fabulous restaurateur. She owns Monsoon. Kit owns Pineapple's Thai Kitchen on Preston Avenue. She owns Coconuts in Crozet. She owns, is it Maple Thai Kitchen? Charlottesville, is that what it is? I think it's Maple Pine Breakfast and Thai Kitchen on Pantops.

On the DL, without a lot of people realizing it, one of the top restaurateurs in this community is Kit Ashey, who owns Mansum Siam on Market Street. That is my wife's favorite Thai restaurant, my favorite Thai restaurant. She owns Pineapples by Cardinal Hall, Coconuts, Coconut Thai kitchen in Crozet, and maple pine breakfast in Thai kitchen on Pantops, the base of Pantops. On the DL, one of the top restaurateurs in this community.

No flag, no standing on the rooftop, screaming for attention. She just goes about her business the right way and making delicious food taste good. Virginia basketball plays Miami tonight. The Hoos are riding a six-game winning streak. This is another must-win game for Virginia, who still is on the bubble looking in, looking out of the big dance. Still has work to do, according to the professional prognosticators of the NCAA tournament. Pretty much Virginia is one of the first four out now, according to the people who make these predictions. And they're often very, very right.

UVA is a six-and-a-half point favorite against against the hurricane, seven o'clock ESPN tonight. UVA is second in the Atlantic Coast Conference. They are riding a six game winning streak right now, and they've won 22 straight games at home in the John Paul Jones Arena. I want to highlight the fact that Peter Krebs is on the show tomorrow of the Piedmont Environmental Council. We're going to talk all things Charlottesville with a guy who knows the community inside and out, including Biscuit Run, with Peter Krebs tomorrow. Anything you want to close with, Judah Wickauer? Go try some amazing soup somewhere and keep yourself warm try soup i like it you try the french onion please

why because it's good i've never been a big fan of french onion soup okay Do you like matzo ball soup? I've tried a few good ones, yeah. So is that a yes? Sure. Okay. Your top three soups are New England clam chowder, one. New England clam chowder, cheddar and broccoli soup. And what would I say?

I don't know if I've got a third. A good stuffed, what is it? Potato soup. Loaded baked potato soup? Yeah, but I don't know that, I mean, it's good. I don't know that I'd go out of my way to get one. Respect. The man knows what he wants.

Just get him some New England clam chowder. Does chili count as soup? I don't think chili counts as soup. I don't know that it does either. A lot of people say a hot dog is a sandwich. There are a lot of things that are sandwiches. Would you say a taco is a sandwich? Are you the people that think that taco is a sandwich i would never know tacos are i elevate tacos would you say a hot dog is a sandwich no not really would you say a cheeseburger is a sandwich technically speaking

yeah but uh i wouldn't go around asking people if they want a sandwich and then giving them a cheeseburger. Thank you. A lot of people, Judah laughs at his own jokes more than any other jokes. A lot of people think a hot dog is a sandwich. I don't buy that. Like technically, but come on. Special edition of the Hillary Lewis Murray show, the juicy details today at 2.15 PM.

She's going to interview Hayes Humphrey. Hayes of Judah. Do you know? Hayes Humphrey. The COO of, I believe, is it? Devil's Backbone Brewing Company. Yes,

absolutely. Hayes Humphrey's in studio, the COO of Devil's Backbone Brewing Company. Yes, absolutely. Hayes Humphreys in studio, the COO of Devil's Backbone Brewing Company on the Juicy Details with Hilary Lewis Murray today at 2.15 p.m., a special edition of it. It's going to be a fantastic interview. If you like the evolution of the craft beer scene here locally. Judah Wittkower, Jerry Miller, The I Love Seville Show.

Thank you kindly for joining us. Peter Krebs tomorrow on the program. Take care, everybody. Thank you.