The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - Joel Gardner, President/Chairman, Jefferson Council; Why Did Gov Youngkin Fire UVA BOV Bert Ellis?

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

The I Love CVille Show headlines: Joel Gardner, President/Chairman, Jefferson Council Why Did Gov Youngkin Fire UVA BOV Bert Ellis? Was Ellis Used To Kill DEI And Then Discarded? Is DEI Still Front & Center At University of Virginia? Should BOV Clean House At UVA Health System? How Does The UVA Health System Regain Trust? Did UVA Manage 3X Murder Redacted Report Well? The Clash Of Free Speech & Racism On Grounds Does UVA President Jim Ryan Have Job Security? Joel Gardner, President and Chairman of The Jefferson Council, joined me live on The I Love CVille Show! The I Love CVille Show airs live Monday – Friday from 12:30 pm – 1:30 pm on The I Love CVille Network. Watch and listen to The I Love CVille Show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, iTunes, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Fountain, Amazon Music, Audible, Rumble and iLoveCVille.com.

Good Thursday afternoon, guys. My name is Jerry Miller, and thank you kindly for joining us on the I Love Seville show. We're in downtown Charlottesville, Virginia for the new viewers and listeners. We are less than two miles from the John Paul Jones Arena and Scott Stadium, and just a hop, skip, and a jump from the grounds of Thomas Jefferson's University. We do the flagship show this program Monday through Friday from 1230 to 130 on every social media platform possible, every podcasting platform possible.

And boy have we had a lot to discuss as it pertains to the University of Virginia. Just to give you a snapshot if you're new to the program, we've talked Bert Ellis' surprising firing at the hands of Governor Glenn Youngkin all week long. The Board of Visitor that certainly had the highest profile because of a, let's cut to the chase, boombastic personality is no more at the University of Virginia. Frankly, that's to

this show's disappointment. Bert Ellis was doing some things and the ways that we thought Governor Youngkin wanted, and that's why Governor Youngkin appointed Mr. Ellis to the BOV. Still, parting is such sweet sorrow, or in the 2025 terms, it's the modern family that revolves around divorce. And that's what happened earlier this week. We're gonna talk about that with the president and chairman of the Jefferson Council, Joel Gardner. He's kind enough to join us.

He will be on the line in T minus 10 seconds. The Jefferson Council has been on the forefront of covering so much, offering commentary and perspective. We encourage you to follow them online. On today's program, we'll talk the white collar racketeering, our words from the University of Virginia Health System, the alleged, I should use the word alleged when I say white collar racketeering. We'll talk the crossroads of free speech and racism at UVA. We'll talk a redacted triple murder report that has left many people scratching their heads

and asking if the University of Virginia is being disingenuous. And folks, we will have a very frank conversation about Jim Ryan and his job security as what, the seventh president, I believe, Judah, of the University of Virginia. All right. Why don't we go to the studio camera and then a two-shot and let's weave a gentleman into today's show, an interview we've been very excited to have.

Joel Gardner, our guest, the president and the chairman of the Jefferson Council. You're live with what I see is 14 states watching the program right now. Mr. Gardner, thank you kindly for joining us. If you could take a moment and introduce yourself to everybody that's watching the program. Thanks, Jerry. Well, I was born and bred in New York City. The son of an immigrant who came to America from Russia to escape the Tsar and the Cossacks. He grew up in extreme poverty on the Lower East Side, ten people and 400 square feet. My mother was the daughter of an immigrant. My father worked hard enough to move his family into the middle class.

I was born in Brooklyn, grew up in Queens, in what I would say was an ethnic ghetto. I'd say 95% of my high school class was Italian, Irish, and Jewish. You have to search far and wide to find a Protestant in my high school. I was fortunate enough to be accepted to the University of Virginia. The school, I had never been on grounds, knew nobody there, but I considered it was going to be an adventure. Came down to the university in 1966. For those of you who can still remember what Charlottesville and UVA was like back then,

it was still an all-men's school, coat and tie school, school dominated by tradition, very Southern, dominated by the fraternities. And for me, it was like being dropped very southern, dominated by the fraternities. And for me, it was like being dropped into a totally foreign land. I was a stranger in a strange land. And I could have done one of two things.

I could have put the tail between my legs and skedaddled back to New York, or I could have embraced the university and its traditions. And I did the latter, which I consider one of the great fortunate decisions I made in my life. I had a wonderful four years as an undergraduate, wound up as one of the top student leaders in my class, graduated Phi Beta Kappa, then went on to active duty in the Army. The Vietnam War was still going on, although I stayed stateside. Came back to the law school here where I was a member of the law review, was on the student council

with Larry Sabato, who was an undergraduate of friends with Larry. After I graduated from the law school, went back to New York, practiced at one of the major Wall Street firms, was on their first mergers and acquisitions team, segued into investment banking, spent the next 30 years as an international corporate finance investment banker, and retired about 10 years ago. When I retired from my day job, bought two places, one down in Florida and one in Charlottesville. I spent most of the academic part of the year in Charlottesville, not playing golf at the country club, but getting very involved with the university.

I served on my fourth board during that period. My wife became part of the arts council. At that, we were very much, whenever we were in Charlottesville, we were involved up to our chins with UVA. And perhaps that was the problem, because during that period, UVA began, was in a massive period of change.

And by 2020, I just really couldn't take it anymore. The politicization of both the university and the Charlottesville was very discomforting. And to see it up close daily was more than I could take. And we moved out of Charlotte. We sold our place in Charlottesville in 2020 and bought a place again in New York. So I share, I spend my time between Florida and New York now, but I've never really left the university. I've been on four boards at the university. I spearheaded more than half a dozen fundraising efforts for the university. Two of my children went to the university. I used to like to

I went to the university and I used to like to say that I was probably the only investment banker on Wall Street that read the Cavalier Daily online before the Wall Street Journal. So it's been part of who I am, remains part of who I am and it's a great school with great history and tradition that over the past 15 years has been disrupted and in my estimation in a lot of ways on the road to being destroyed the history and traditions of the university and what made it such a unique, it is a unique institution. I can already tell this interview is going to be fantastic. This guy has orange and blue in his blood. Joel, if you could do me one slight favor, just take a little step backward.

That way we can put your nameplate on screen. There we go. All right, Joel, I also read the Cavalier Daily, I think first of any news outlet I do. Then the second news outlet I do is jerryrackliff.com to read about UVA sports. Like you, a UVA guy, my brother went to UVA, I went to UVA, my father a 1972 graduate of the University of Virginia. He's told us stories of showing up in 1968, a jacket and tie

on September days of walking to class, sweating profusely, being completely drenched. And then he's told us by his fourth year, he'd be walking back to his off grounds apartment and kids were in tie-dye and cargo shorts and Birkenstocks and girls were walking right next to him. So it went from guys only to girls and tie-dye and ponytails and sandals. And he relishes those memories. And we grew up with those memories, my brother and I. And like you, I'm concerned with what I'm seeing at the University of Virginia as it's

gone from a proud single sanction honor code university, as it's gone from an institution that touts its relationship with its founder, Thomas Jefferson, as it's gone from an institution that touts its relationship with its founder, Thomas Jefferson, as it's gone from one of the top educational universities in the world to being a machine for politics and a machine for activism. I would like for you to offer some insight, sir, into the Jefferson Council, why it was co-founded, the mission of the Jefferson Council, and your role of the Jefferson Council, why it was co-founded, the mission of the Jefferson Council and your role of the Jefferson Council today.

Okay, so the Jefferson Council was founded over four years ago and I think what it did was the factor that brought a lot of people together and that was really the energizing factor was the famed FUVA sign on the door on her lawn room door and that really brought together a lot of alums who couldn't believe that that was going on

on what is the holy of holies pretty much at the university is the lawn designed by Thomas Jefferson, the academic village is the only academic UNESCO World Heritage Site in North America. It brought just a lot of people together. Because I've been so granular at UVA and having served on boards, I had seen what had been going on there, having lived there and everything. And I had been talking to a lot of friends,

telling them that, hey, you know, this place is just really going downhill. It is just becoming politicized. It's no longer a place where people have civil discussions. It's become more like a political, almost you could say like a dictatorial state. There was one philosophy that ruled the grounds, and if you didn't agree with that philosophy, you were penalized. And that was for both students and faculty. And while I was there, I was talking to so many people.

And see, you know, energized the groups to come together. Tom Neal and Bert Ellis were really the two who put it together. I served on the first. I got involved very, very quickly. I did not know Tom. I've known Bert for over 50 years. Bert and I were friends when he was an undergraduate and I was in law school.

When I was in law school, law school was still on the grounds, the main grounds of Clark Hall. I was in the last class to graduate from Clark Hall. I was a student leader, he was a student leader. Student leaders got to know each other. We were both in one of the oldest honoraries at UVA called Tilco. We were both Tilcas together. So I knew Burt, we got involved, and we had a number of pillars. And to me the most important pillar of that was the concept of having a level playing ground for the free and civil exchange of ideas at the university, which had been

lost. Free speech, you can call it diversity of thought, but it was having that level playing ground where faculty, students, administrators felt comfortable in expressing their opinions because that was no longer the case. Another pillar was protecting the Academical Village, Jefferson's original grounds. Another pillar was protecting the legacy of Thomas Jefferson as one of the greatest Americans in history. And the fourth, which really brought us everybody together, most people, not only of my generation, but I think at least through the 20th century and into the beginning of the 21st century, is trying to preserve a meaningful existence for the honor system, which is dead now. You talk about, I mean, Governor said DI is dead at UVA, DI is not dead at UVA, but I can tell you what is dead at UVA is the honor system

in any reasonable existence. That's gone. And the concept of having a community of trust, which is what this administration always talks about, that's in theory. That's not practice. And I can get granular on that about what I've been told by faculty members and by students about what is going on. And it's not a few people that the board will roll out to a board meeting where the administration will stand up and say, oh, yeah, they'll take the chair of the honor committee and say, yeah, it's still alive. Well, it's not. In fact, it's there. The words are there. And a lot of students will say, yeah, we believe in it.

But ask a student if they'd ever be willing to turn in one of their classmates on an honor violation. That's non-existing now. And the only people that, when I was a student and for many years afterwards, the only person that could bring an honor charge was a student. If a faculty member saw, believed that was cheating either on plagiarism on a paper or saw cheating in a classroom, they had to go to another student and ask them to investigate it. And only the student now, that's segue years ago into basically only faculty bringing charges.

And I heard from a very senior faculty member very recently that the faculty has in essence given up on the honor system because there are so many procedural barriers and so many procedural hurdles. And then after spending enormous amount of time and effort to actually get an honor charge being brought, most people never found guilty. So they've given up. The faculty has given up. The students won't enforce it. So what's left? It's not the University of Virginia, folks,

that I remember, and certainly not the University of Virginia that was woven into my childhood by my father through his commentary on tradition and history. We will get to the news cycle as it applies to UVA with Joel. I'm going to also ask him this question later in the interview. How much do we attribute these changes at the University of Virginia to a pre-pandemic and post-pandemic environment?

Furthermore, or more specifically, how much do we attribute these changes to at the University of Virginia to a pre-Jim Ryan and post-Jim Ryan leadership ecosystem. Specifically, before we get to those, I want to talk Bert Ellis. Everyone knows this by now, and I have a little bit of information to get out. We've been corresponding with Mr. Ellis via email. He's agreed to come on the show. We're working on coordinating that interview slot as we speak.

He was fired earlier this week by the governor of Virginia, Glenn Yonkin. He fires Mr. Ellis from the UVA Board of Visitors after a very short time of appointing Bert Ellis to the BOV. Mr. Ellis' influence at the BOV was immediate. His personality is alpha. His choice of, I'm trying to characterize this appropriately. His choice of management style is one of aggressive and let's get change done and let's have an impact now versus later. And I respect that because he's from the world of business, he's an entrepreneur and that's the mindset you need for survival.

Perhaps it clashed in a more political environment of a BOV. I wanna get this to you specifically. What were your thoughts on Burt Ellis's firing from the Board of Visitors at the University of Virginia at the hands of Governor Glenn Youngkin? As I mentioned before, I've known Burt for over five decades. So I know there is not anybody who cares about this university more than Burt.

I'd say Burt and I are pretty similar in that way, but Burt has been a dedicated, he was a student leader while he was there, he's been a dedicated alum since. He's served on boards. He's donated a lot of money, but it's more than just donating money and serving on boards. He cares. It's in his blood. Orange and blue run through his blood. And when Bert gets involved with something, he doesn't do it just to sit back and watch. He's a leader. He said he's an alpha. Yeah, he is an alpha. Bird is out there. There's no doubt about it.

And he was put in a situation that I think... He was brought on the board with a mandate to do things. And I can tell you very much because I heard the same things he did. I was called by the same search team that the governor put together to look for board members right after he was elected. And I can tell you what they told me, because I'm pretty sure having spoken at birth, they'd said the same thing to him, that quote unquote, it was not going

to be business as usual. They were not going to be bringing people on the board who wanted to go to football games, go to cocktail parties, sit at the board meeting, listen to presentations and do nothing else. I think there was a recognition at the very beginning of the governor's term that material change was necessary at the university by the politicization that had been wrought by the last two administrations at the university. And we were told we want people who are going to be fighters. That's what I was told. They kind of characterized it almost like, and they knew how difficult it was going to

be. They knew how entrenched that the bureaucracy was at university. That at that point, the board was all in the hands of Northam appointees and that these Northam appointees were absolutely nothing more than a rubber stamp for the administration. Never raised a material issue with them despite the number of horrible things that the administration had done, never said anything publicly about it. And if you watched board meetings, there was nothing of any interest ever discussed.

It was, as it continued to be, basically a self-congratulatory dog and pony show by the administration talking about how much money they had raised, how many new buildings they had built, and how wonderful they were. And that's what the board meetings were about. And we can talk about substantively later some of these issues that had not been confronted by that board. But we were told, you're taking the beach. You're going to be attacked. Doing material change is going to take long effort and perseverance. And you're going to have to be willing to put up

with being attacked, called names. I mean, that's what we were told. That's what Bert Ellis took to the board with that mandate. And because Burt is a leader, and as you said, has that entrepreneurial background, he wants to make things happen. And unfortunately, of all the board members that were appointed subsequently by the governor, Burt is really the only fighter, per se. I mean, there are plenty of people that were appointed that agree with Burt on many things,

but he really was the tip of the spear. And if you're going to get anything done, I mean, I know Burt, you mentioned earlier, called himself being the whip of any ones. Because structurally, it's very, very difficult to get anything done on a board. Let me explain that for a second. One has to do with the FOIA rules. Basically, any time you have more than one, more than two board members together, it is considered a board meeting

and it's supposed to be public and foible. So therefore, if you're trying to get something done with your fellow board members, you can only call them one at a time. You can't have a group meeting basically outside of a board meeting unless you call a special meeting or an emergency meeting. That's number one.

The second problem you had was the way that regular board meetings were structured in that the agenda for a board meeting was made by the president and the rector. And still now the rector is still the rector that was elected by the northern appointees. So even as each year passed and more Yonkin board members were put on the board, we're still in the hands of the rector and the president. And so for to do anything, and I know this, I've got multiple friends on the board. I have another friend on the board who I've known for 50 years and I've become friendly with other members of the board, that trying to get anything done was a massive effort. And Bert, to his credit, was willing to make that effort.

I mean, and you know what's really sad is you can watch these board meetings, there are board members there who never say a word. Don't literally don't say a word at a meeting and you know you're not gonna get anything done that way. And I think, you know, Burt's, so that was one issue. I mean, Burt was out there. He was being in some situations blunt, and you could say. But if you watch the meetings, anybody who's watched the meetings for the past three years, there was only one time where Burt was in any way, shape or form unceremonious. And that is when the rector refused to discuss the anti-Semitism problem in public, which was a shame, a real broad

shame on this university. And to offer some insight there, the rector Robert Hardy wanted to take the conversation into closed session. Board of Visitors member Bert Ellis wanted to keep it an open session and that caused a very public invisible, I would call it an argument, combative, two personalities in combative state. And to Mr. Ellis's credit,

antisemitism should be discussed and analyzed on the record for the community at large to get some clarity in how the University of Virginia is going to improve anti-Semitic tendencies or proclivities or movements at the university that are front and center. I got so much I want to cover here with you, Joel. This is my opinion and the opinion I offered on the show here. Governor Glenn Youngkin appointed Bert Ellis to the Board of Visitors. Despite a track record, or in spite of a track record

of Mr. Ellis with the FUCK sign at the lawn at the University of Virginia, where he was the link to knocking on the front door of the student looking to take down the lawn, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's tomato, tomato. There's one story on one side from the student looking to take down the lawn. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's tomato, tomato. There's one story on one side from the student. There's a story on the other side from Bert Ellis.

Somewhere in the middle is the truth. That's just how it is with life. We also had the Democrats in Richmond, elected officials in Richmond, doing their very best to crucify Mr. Ellis' character before he was appointed on the board. And if it wasn't for two Democrats breaking rank and going across the aisle, Mr. Ellis would not have been appointed on the board. But these two Democrats broke rank, they joined Republicans, and Yonkin got what he wanted. Yonkin, from my standpoint, he looks like the bad guy or has the egg on his face here.

From my standpoint, Yonkin appoints a guy to the Board of Visitors. We know he's boombastic. We know he's alpha. We know he's going to make change happen. He's the proverbial bull in the China shop. That's what has made Bert Ellis a successful business person. Once change has started the eradication of diversity, equity and inclusion from the University of Virginia, then the governor chooses to fire the leader of that change. It makes the governor of Virginia look like, A, he used Burt Ellis to get what he wanted and then discarded him. B, his choice of replacement with Burt Ellis, with Ken Cuccinelli.

I would encourage anyone to do some research on that man right there. That may be a topic for a different day. If activists and left-leaning folks had a problem with Bert Ellis, do some research on the replacement folks, and I'll leave it at that. And then third, this could be one of the least strategic or forward-thinking moves I've seen from the governor who otherwise throughout his entire term has looked damn near presidential from my standpoint. Anywhere you want to go on all these topics, Joel? There's a lot going on behind the scenes that, Jerry, that came into play here. Let's put it that way. It wasn't, I don't think the governor was using BERT. I think the governor truly wanted to get rid of DEI. I don't know whether

the governor has truly appreciated what we're dealing with, with the administration, with the swamp. I mean, this is like a microcosm of national politics. There is an embedded establishment at UVA that includes both parties, not just Democrats, but old line Republicans. I mean, this is, you know, it's amazing. The way I was a history major, and I follow politics pretty closely too,

political history. But, I mean, it's sort of, Burt was a disruptor. And there's a lot of the old line, old Virginians who were part of the establishment who don't like disruptors. And so they were, I would almost say, follow the money too, in terms of contributors and in terms of people who came out, who I know came out against Bert behind the scenes. There's a lot going on behind the scenes.

There's a lot of phone calls being made. People did not like Burt's style. They felt he was too unceremonious. He was not a quote unquote Virginia gentleman. But let me just shift for a second, talk about this concept of a Virginia gentleman, because I know that was thrown around, that was saying that Burt wasn't acting like a Virginia gentleman. I mean, I came back from the old school when the concept of Virginia gentleman was up front. Everybody talked about it. It was part of the traditions of UVA. But to me, a Virginia

gentleman wasn't just putting a coat and tie on, you know, having bourbon and being a good old boy. To me, the essence of being a Virginia gentleman was honor and character. Honor, character, integrity. That was the essence of being a Virginia gentleman. that was the essence of being a Virginia gentleman. Someone who did things up front wouldn't stab you in the back, was honest and true and I'll tell you right now you may not like, someone may not like Bert's style, they may think he's too blunt. But you knew where you stood with him, you knew where you stood with him. You knew where you stood with him.

Yes, and no, I'll be honest. Yes and no. Okay. I'm not sure they, you know, Burt, you know, had a background, you know, I don't know all the people who did the background checks or the due diligence, but Burt was a leader. He was known to be a leader. He was the president of the Jefferson Council at the time. I think that's why they picked him. He was known to be a leader. He was the president of the Jefferson Council at the time. I think that's why they picked him. I'm not sure whether they knew that Burt was that much of a disruptor or he would be or how he would react. But Burt is a man of character and integrity and honor.

You can disagree with him. You may not like what he says. you may not like what he says, you may not like how he says it, but that is what he is. He's a guy you would leave your last nickel with and know it would be there even if he had gone with starving. And just the opposite, I wouldn't give my first nickel to this administration. He was dealing with people who don't know the meaning of honor, who don't know the meaning of integrity. In order to make a dent in that swamp, you're going to have to go into overdrive. Well, Joel, let me throw this to you here. Walk us, because you're providing, my job as the interviewer is to be the pace setter,

and you're providing commentary that I think is analysis that's compelling here. Walk us through the X's and O's of why you or how Burt Ellis was removed from the Board of Visitors here. You highlight money players, people of influence, you say follow the money, you say the lack of integrity here. Give us more clarity here of what you're talking about. What happened with Bert Ellis' removal from the BOV? If you could just do that with that sit back there so we can get your name played on screen.

I know you're passionate about this, I can tell. There are members of the board that were appointed by the governor who have not liked Bert from day one. I'm not going to name them. There's one on there who went specifically on the board, to my understanding, because he wanted to tone down Burt. There are big names in Virginia, older members, big names of Virginia politics, I mean, that got involved, that made phone calls behind the scenes. I think just given his druthers, I don't think the governor probably would have removed Burt. I think there was a lot of pressure was brought on

him. And the pressure came from a lot of people I think he considered important to him. And you know, the actually knows I think think what happened, the straw that broke the camel's back was after the resolution was finally passed by the board there were already the DEI website was still up advertising a whole bunch of woke lectures and DEI-based events. And I think Bert was new, as we all know, we can get into this in detail later, how difficult it is going to be to root out DEI-UVA. And this was easy, take down the website, could have been done that afternoon, could have been done the next day, or the day after that, or the day after that.

And I think he started leaning heavily on the administration in a blunt manner that you got to do this because they've been giving Burt and other board members the run around for three years. I mean, we're talking about totally disingenuous people that have been running this university. And there's only a point that you can take, you're a basketball fan, this administration goes into four corners.

They, which is no longer relevant since they put the shot clock in, but they're just stalling. They want to stall until they can get the Republican administration out, hopefully in their views get a Democratic administration in, and just keep on stalling and stalling and never really get anything done, or allow change, material change. And Burt wasn't standing for it. So yeah, I know the conversations that took place. He was blunt with saying, you've got to do this. You know, you've got to, you know, we're in charge now. The board did at a special meeting before the DEI meeting

reinstate the board's governance rights, which hadn't been, had been left on the floor by the last, God knows for how long, decades or decades. The last time the board tried to do something material they botched, which was getting rid of Terry Sullivan. But, and I think that the board was difficult to recover for that because they caught a lot of heat for that. They became much more passive after that. And interestingly, you bring up Terry Sullivan, the president of the University of Virginia, Helen Dragus, then the rector at the time, a businesswoman herself, very alpha Helen Dragus, Virginia Beach, Norfolk area, with the Dragas companies. She, in a lot of ways, was the ringleader

of ousting Terry Sullivan, and it imploded upon her. And since that saga of trying to remove Terry Sullivan from her post, then having the University of Virginia faculty come to her defense to the point where Sullivan then seemed to have more influence than the BOV at the time. He is a hundred percent right, Joel's a hundred percent right. The board has become extremely vanilla and extremely behind the scenes. What in reality the the role of the Board of Visitors of the University of Virginia is to shape and influence the direction of the school and to manage the

president. The BOV is the managers, they're the board, they keep the president in and out of check. And a lot of people are saying that's not being done right now. Here's what's interesting to me and I'm a big fan as a businessman of dynamics and how things shake out, okay? Future, vision, kind of seeing where things are playing out. He still has a super majority, Yonkin on the board. And he still, if he wants to cause change at the University of Virginia,

change potentially at the top with Jim Ryan, he could still do that. Anywhere you wanna go on this topic, do you see that materializing true change as we wind down Youngkin's term in the Governor Mansion? So you've got a fractured board to begin with. You've got a number of people who believe exactly what Burtz believes. They just weren't as activist as he was or as much of a disruptor. But you do have a fair number of people on the board who are willing to be out there

and to see that the material change be made. But then again, you have a number of people on the board who are passive. They don't wanna rock the boat. And the question is, the question always with, I mean, look, if the governor had appointed more activists to the board, there'd be a lot more change would have been done in these years.

I mean, there would have been a DEI earlier. And even with the DEI, I'll give you an example. I mean, it's pretty clear to anybody who is in any way, shape or form granular about this university, that DEI has crept into every nook and cranny and crevice of life at the university. There isn't a department, there isn't an activity, there isn't an institution

where DEI and this universe where DEI hasn't crept into, which is amazing. I mean, it's even in the athletic department, your sports family, I mean, of all the areas where there is diversity, the way they define diversity, it's the sports teams. I mean, and yet there's a DEI department. I mean, I'll tell you as a member of the Jewish faith that if you want to go into diversity, I mean, when was the last time that they've had Jewish athletes on the football and basketball team? Why?

Because they look, I approve. It's a merit-based system, as it should be. But if you want to go by the rules of diversity, I'd say probably about 20% of UVA is Asian and Jewish, probably. How many Asian and Jewish athletes have been on the two big money sports? Basketball and football in the last 20 years or 30 years. Well, Joel, you give me Asian or Jewish student that has a 44 inch vertical or could shoot the three like Isaac McNeely and the entire university would be backing the Asian or Jewish

student on the roster. To your point, it's merit-based. That's the point that you're making here. Yes. And that's the way it should be throughout the university. Should be merit-based. Should be merit in character. I mean, that's the way I grew up. I mean, I grew up in the shadow of the Holocaust. Trust me, I was subject during my career to anti-Semitism on Wall Street. And to me, the greatness of America, and it's never going to be perfect, but the greatness of America is the concept that eventually you will be judged by your American character. I mean, that's Martin Luther King. Not by the color of your skin and ultimately not by what gender you are and not by what

ethnicity you are, but by who you are, what you've done, your character and your accomplishments. That's what we're fighting for and that is not what has existed at the University of Virginia for the past 15 years. How did we get to this point? Is this a tribute to Terry McAuliffe and Ralph Northam and who they have appointed to the board? Is this attributed to Jim Ryan's leadership? Is this attributed to collateral damage

post-COVID and pandemic? How do we get to this point at UVA? I don't think COVID, I mean, COVID had its effects in many ways, but not in this area. Started with, look, I was good friends with John Castine, who unfortunately just passed away. John Castine was president of the UVA for 20 years. I didn't agree with John on everything. John was sort of a classic southern liberal, intellectual liberal.

But John Castine had two things. He loved the university and appreciated its traditions, and he was a good person. I don't think you've had those characteristics in the past two administrations. And the country really starting in- So you're including Teresa Sullivan there. Oh, look. This is something that strikes home for you, I would think.

The first real tragedy, recent tragedy, and there have been about four or five tragedies and or mis, you know, whatever you call them. Well, they're all tragedies in their own way or scandals. The first one was the Rolling Stone. And the Rolling Stone tragedy, I'll call it a tragedy because what happened to your fraternity brothers. I was a Phi Kappa Psi. I'm a Phi Kappa Psi. He's 100% right. I know. I had plenty of friends who were Phi Psi's. My daughter had gone out with some guys in the Phi Psi house when she was there. What happened to those kids and what Terry Sullivan allowed happen to those kids on the basis of nothing but allegations. Those kids were attacked and eviscerated in public by

not only other students but by faculty members. She allowed that to happen. She should have been fired then and there for cause and when it became public that it was all a ruse, it was all a lie, she never apologized to those kids, never came out publicly and said, sorry, we allowed your home to be destroyed. You had to move out of it. We allowed faculty members to attack you in public. Never apologized for it. home to be destroyed, you had to move out of it, we allowed faculty members to attack

you in public, never apologized for it. I mean, for anything, talk about character and integrity. She came out, when that scandal broke, she was away on a foreign trip in Europe and they had to call her back, she didn't even come back on her own. And one of the first things she said, she used the phrase that many university presidents and others, you know, the Jefferson quote, for here we are not afraid to follow the truth wherever it may lead. And then she said, I am here to protect all our students. Well, she neither followed the truth nor protected all our students. And for that, she should always be living in shame.

I appreciate the commentary. He is absolutely right. The brothers of Phi Kappa Psi that were stigmatized by that Rolling Stone phony media coverage still to this day talk about the ramifications or the struggles, the challenges of being a student on grounds as the entire fraternity was labeled rapists essentially by a national publication. And that entire media coverage proved to be 110% fake and phony. You talk about the evolution of the University of Virginia into this political and activist machine from Teresa Sullivan's era and term into the Jim Ryan,

which we're now in term. President Ryan starts his presidency, and I've highlighted this on the show in the past, with such approachability. I mean, the president of UVA is running around grounds in the morning and encouraging students to follow him. At the start of COVID, he's perched up next to his desk doing video conferencing with his tie-at-half mask and his sleeves rolled up, almost Obama-esque in his approachability.

And that's not about politics. That's just that Barack Obama, the president, had a gift for approachability. That was one of his talents and why he got elected in a lot of ways. And then it starts That was one of his talents and why he got elected in a lot of ways. And then it starts spiraling or crumbling before our eyes. And Joe, I want to weave you in here as we highlight Jim Ryan's term and his leadership. President Ryan has just stepped in a pile of, you know what, over the last 36 months, time in and time again. The management of the tragedy with the three Virginia football players murdered at the hands of another student with red flags woven well before that tragedy.

We can discuss the pepper spraying of students in a protest last May on grounds, a pro-Palestine protest. From what we know, at least on paper, he was called to militarize the state police and pepper spray students. We can talk the health system and the alleged medical chart changing and fraudulent billing. I mean, it's essentially white collar racketeering that's going on with UVA Health, which is the financial engine of the University of Virginia. Folks, the engine of UVA

is the health system financially. We can talk President Ryan and how he's managing these redacted reports. I mean where do you want to start with Jim Ryan here? We've got plenty of time. Plenty of time. OK, so let's take it from the beginning. I met Jim right after he was appointed. And I start, and you're right, I mean, the first thing that hit you compared to Terry Sullivan, he was approachable. He was approachable.

You could talk to him like a regular person. I met Terry Sullivan at least 30 times. She never remembered my name. Same. I mean, even, she always had to look at my nameplate. I mean, it was embarrassing. But Jim was approachable. He, you know, his runs with Jim in the morning. He obviously is a very smart guy, very smooth, often self-deprecating and totally, and I mean totally disingenuous. And let me start, I mean I've known every president at this university since Edgar Shannon, and been pretty friends with many of them because of how much I've participated.

And it hasn't, politics has never come into play. Like I said, with John Castine, I mean, I may not have agreed with everything he did, but he was a good person. And he loved the university he was a good person. And he loved the university and I knew that. And he was trying to do the best he could. And when Jim first came on, I dropped by his office. I collect a lot of UVA memorabilia.

I left him a rare postcard of Alderman's first, showing Alderman's becoming the first president of UVA. And I want in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the

Congress, and I was in the U.S. Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the Congress, and I was in the depressing the DEI political agenda in a far greater manner than Terry did. I don't think Terry was that much of an ideologue. I think she was more of a bureaucrat than anything. Jim was a very, very uncomfortable mixture of an ideologue and a careerist. I don't think he ever viewed being president of UVA as the final step. No, absolutely not. I think he always had in the back of my mind, is it going to be Harvard, Yale, Stanford, or whatever.

I don't think he ever took into account that the Ivy League stopped hiring white males as their president about a decade ago. I don't think he figured that one out and he wasn't able to foresee that. But Jim was really pushing the DEI agenda, but it was more than that. Whether it was his ideology or his ambition, but the way, what he's done, there have been more, I would say, dark deeds done under his administration than in the rest of the history of UV, at least since the end of segregation.

What are the, specifically, what are these dark deeds from your vantage point? Let's talk about how he ruined the lives of numbers of students and I know one has been discussed on your but the worst was Morgan Bettinger. What he allowed to happen to that student, his ward, it's his student, it's his responsibility. He allowed, and I know you discussed the whole, I think it was maybe it was with Tom or someone else, you discussed the whole incident. But basically the incident where it was off grounds and it was a couple of years ago,

it was after the George Floyd incident, So there was a lot of tension. She was driving back from work because she had to work. Her father, who had been a law enforcement official, had died from cancer. She was working and there was a demonstration going on downtown. I think it was on Water Street. It was a Black Women's Matter movement. Yeah, they were lying on the ground and she pulls up and couldn't get by and there was a truck driver who was blocking it and she made, allegedly, and it's still unclear exactly what she said, allegedly had said, it's lucky you're here because if you weren't here, they'd be just speed bumps. It was a joke. And from that joke one of the leaders of that demonstration.

Ziana Bryant and she's running for Charlottesville. She's running for Charlottesville school board literally right now. She's running for school board in the city. She started a campaign against this girl and that the university allowed to take place. They brought her up in fairy committee, which had been totally politicized. They basically banned her from campus, from the grounds. She'd been attacked, her life threatened on social media because they had launched, these students had launched a media campaign or social media campaign against her.

Okay, so he's allowing all that to go on to one of his own students. Then they actually, the university has an investigation, the civil rights, whatever the acronym is, has an investigation, and they come back with the investigation clearing her, saying that none of these charges are appropriate. They can't prove any of them. They're not valid. She's innocent. So she goes and asks Jim Ryan to wipe her record So she goes and asked Jim Ryan to wipe her record clean. It shouldn't have been there that she, and he wouldn't. Yeah, it was ridiculous. What kind of person would do that to one of his own?

If anybody had a daughter, do you think that Hardy's, Robert Hardy's daughter had done that? You think that Jim Ryan would allow that to happen to her. You think of some of his other major donors or a professor's daughter or somebody in his administration's daughter. But here's this girl that's being left out, hung out to dry. And this is one of the great moments for the Jefferson Council, because what we did is we helped her get representation. And one of our members kind of almost acted like a substitute dad

for her in this situation. So she winds up suing the university and probably from what I've heard around between the legal fees and what they paid to settle, he probably could have spent a couple of hundred, could have sent a couple of hundred in-state students to school for a year. I mean, nobody that allowed that to happen to that girl, anybody in a position of authority, should not be sitting there. Let's start with that. Okay? Then there was, and you may know about the Kiran Bhattacharya, the medical student case.

And this is again, you had a brilliant but troubled student who at a mandated meeting that he had to go to a seminar on microaggressions, a fraught subject to be sure, he assiduously questioned the speakers when it was done. It's on, they recorded it. Someone can go back and research and listen to it, is questioning them. And after that, the woke faculty secretly put a kind of like of your soccer, red card, yellow card, against his name in his record, and then called a Kafkaesque meeting for him that he made him come to. And he kept on asking at the meeting, why am I here? And they wouldn't tell him.

I mean, what they did to that kid, and eventually he got thrown off. I mean, there was allegedly issues with his girlfriend or there was some other stuff. He was a troubled kid. They should have been, if anything, they should have been helping this kid out. This kid graduated, I think, Summa Cum Laude from the University of Alabama, I believe,

when he was like 17 or 16 years old. And he was a brilliant kid with, you know, obviously trying to adjust his youngster in college and all of this stuff. Instead of trying to help him, they destroyed him. Okay, so that's number two. Number three, Metan Goldstein, one of the few really religious Jewish students on grounds who wears yarmulke or wore yarmulke because of the greatest outbreak of anti-Semitism in the history of this university. He was afraid to wear it. But he went to that Students for Justice in Palestine demonstration that took

place a couple of weeks after October 7th, 2023. Now we can get back, I mean, I hate to segue, but that demonstration being held with masked students was not only arguably, pretty clearly a violation of the laws of the Commonwealth, the masking laws of the Commonwealth, and a felony to boot, not the misdemeanor. But anyway, he went to that holding an Israeli flag, and he claimed that he'd been, he was

assaulted at that, they tried to rip the flag down, they pushed him. And the university took the position that there was no proof of it, that he was basically making it up a line. And this was happening at the same time that a UVA faculty member had told the university that sent investigators around. He had told them that he was there, them that he was there, he witnessed it, and he had to go and physically take some of the masked demonstrators from him. And yet the university made light and basically said, hey, this really didn't happen, or you're just saying it happened. How do you do that?

His kids, like, I mean, I won't go into the whole thing, but he was slandered, he was attacked, for being Jewish, other students. And when he told him, when he told the administrator that he didn't feel safe in the dorm because there were some kids who were coming up and verbally abusing him and he felt threatened, you know what they told him? They told him, go find another dorm. Yeah, right.

It's difficult. OK, so those were, I'm just bringing up a couple of examples of students. The other things, let's go back to what you've raised and you wanted to get into, the shooting deaths. I mean, there's a long, I mean, again, I could spend next hour talking about this, but the bottom line is there were red flags. There were red flags everywhere with this guy.

Red flags. Yeah. He is part of the unredacted part of the lawyer's report on this said that, well, they doubted if there was enough there for a reasonable man to have projected that this kid would have shot people, Which to me is in and of itself a ridiculous statement. Because yeah, did you know, would you know that this kid would put the red flags, and let's go over those red flags. Okay? When they started the investigation, before the shootings, shootings he had been i think was being investigated

for a uh... some fraternity issues they had uh... in his fraternity uh... hazing issues they've learned during the isn't it rested for concealed carry yeah prior and it never told the university about it

which he is mandated to do if you're arrested. He was supposed to tell the university to let them. Let me jump in here. We got eight minutes here with the interview and I got a lot of questions I want to cover with you. In regards to the triple murder, the red flags were prevalent and there's one thing with following the letter of the law and there's another thing altogether with being the president of a university where you have to be mindful of the care of all

students and following the letter of the law and running a university are two different things. And for President Ryan to utilize the letter of the law as ammunition for his decision making is not what a university president is supposed to do. He's supposed to infer, interpret, use cues, use red flags in his decision making. I'll be straightforward with you here.

I got a hard stop at 145 here. You've been fantastic, Joel. I'll be straightforward with you. Will Jim Ryan be the president of the University of Virginia when this calendar year becomes, when 2025 becomes 2026? Maybe. He shouldn't be, but maybe. I mean, this is what I'll say. We only have eight minutes left. There are two things I want to bring out. I think it's important

for everybody to know. One is a conversation I had directly with Jim Ryan. I served, I was picked. Jim Ryan formed the university committee on free expression basically because of an open letter I wrote to him that went public. He picked me to serve on there. There were two of the 12 people, there were two more conservative than liberal. I was one of them.

This is the least transparent administration in the history of the university. We were told we weren't to discuss anything that was said, anybody that brought anything to us or whatever. And there were a lot of things that were brought to us and I, you know, we weren't allowed to talk about it. But after that committee, we came out a report. I was a good soldier. There were certain things in the statement I didn't agree with, but I signed because I thought it was better for the university to have it than not have it.

I went to see him and he agreed to see me. I was in his office and one of the things that the conversation led to was he's always talking about marginalized groups at the grounds, underrepresented marginalized groups. I said to him, Jim, you know that the, that you're talking about these marginalized groups are not marginalized and haven't been for 50 years since the early 70s on grounds. They've run most student organizations now,

they're deans, they're very well represented in the faculty. And I said, the other groups that are marginalized, and I just threw out some examples, fraternity members, conservative Christians, I said white males, those marginalized on grounds. You don't see them in leadership, mostly in leadership positions. They're not up on the same category. They're not viewed in the same way. And this was his answer to me. And this is what I'm getting at. He said, Joel, well, you know, viewed in the same way. This was his answer to me. This is what I'm getting at. He said, Joe, well, you know, that's the way it's always been.

And I said, what? What do you mean? And he said, well, when you were a student here, certain groups were marginalized. You know, we said black students, women, gay students, and now it's just some other groups that are being marginalized. And that was his answer to me. And at that moment, that is the moment I knew that that man should not be sitting in Madison Hall.

Anybody who could justify in any way, the marginalization of his own students for any reason should not be president of any university, no less a public institution. That's number one. I wanna get, cause you wanted to talk about the healthcare. Yeah, and we might have to do, and Joel, you're fantastic, we might have to do a part two interview here with you here, but please, please keep going with here, and I'm very, I need to know your answer. Super majority

on the board with Yonkin appointments, why is a move not made to make a change at the helm of president of UVA? They will be when the governor gives them the thumbs up. Wow. And does that happen? Before? And until then, I doubt it will happen. OK, so then a follow-up question here.

You're a connected man here. He's got less than nine months left in his term. Right. I mean what is the governor waiting for here? Well he's got, he's they gave Jim Roy in 30 days to report back to the Board of Visitors Jim Roy in 30 days to report back to the Board of Visitors after the Board of Visitors passed the resolution to put an end to the DEI, right? Or any way to take apart the DEI apparatus. He's got 30 days to do that, to come back and tell what he's done that for. Given past history, I think they're going to be, you know, they'll give a ridiculous end. You know, they'll give

a non-responsive end. So they'll say, well, we're doing this, we're doing that. When in fact, they're really not doing anything. I had a student just from the graduate business school just tell me he just got something sent to him on recommendations for Darden faculty members to receive their DEI, who's going to receive the DEI award. Now that was weeks after the mandate. This is going to go on and on. They need a committee of numerous people with a full-time job to root this stuff out.

But if Jim Ryan does not react in a reasonable and rapid manner to the mandate from the board, maybe that's what does the trick. Time will tell. Maybe that's the leverage piece. This is what I'd like to do. I got a deal that I'm pushing to the closing table here at 1.45 and a call where I got to make sure it gets there. I would love to follow up with you, sir. Judah and I will follow up with you via email

and continue this interview. Because as you know, in an hour and 15 minutes, which we've gone straight, there's still a boatload that we have not covered. Yeah I told you at the beginning. I I have you know what and I sincerely mean this I'll close with this I appreciate your chutzpah, I appreciate your courage, your transparency to be this communicative, this transparent and straightforward with your commentary that takes courage in 2025 because there's going to be this communicative, this transparent, and straightforward with your commentary, that takes courage in 2025, because there's gonna be people that are watching

and listening to this show that will vehemently disagree with you. But you're coming from the point that all you want is what's best for the University of Virginia, an institution that is not just near your heart, but it's in your heart. And that's what I respect what you're doing. It takes courage to do what you're doing.

We will follow up, Joel, via email. We will schedule a part two, and I would love to continue the conversation, sir, with you. Sure. Thanks, Jerry. I'd be happy to. Thank you for your time. Thank you. All right.

All right. Joel Gardner, guys, chairman and president of the Jefferson Council. Very grateful for your time. Thank you. All right. Joel Gardner, guys, chairman and president of the Jefferson Council, very grateful for his time. The interview is going to be archived wherever you get your social media in your podcasting content, and specifically on I love seville calm. Very interesting coverage right there. I have said on previous shows, Jim Ryan on shaky ground, maybe on shakier ground than we even realized, here on the I Love Seville Network.

And programming note, we are emailing with Burt Ellis. Judy, you saw the email about scheduling the ousted Board of Visitors member for the I Love Seville Show in the very near future. Thank you kindly for joining us. My name is Jerry Miller. So long everybody. Take care...