The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - Shelly Norden & Darlene Dawson Joined Jerry Miller Live On The I Love CVille Show!

Episode Date: June 26, 2024

Shelly Norden, SBMA (School Board Member Alliance) Marketing and Outreach Chair, and Darlene Dawson, Orange County School Board Member, joined Jerry Miller live on The I Love CVille Show! The I Love CVille Show airs live Monday – Friday from 12:30 pm – 1:30 pm on The I Love CVille Network. Watch and listen to The I Love CVille Show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, iTunes, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Fountain, Amazon Music, Audible and iLoveCVille.com.

Good Wednesday afternoon, guys. My name is Jerry Miller, and thank you kindly for joining us on the I Love Seville Show. We enjoy your viewership, your listenership, and your company. All we want to do is be the water cooler of conversation in a region we call Central Virginia that's roughly 300,000 people strong. It's a dynamic region. It's a region influenced by nuances like one of the most prestigious universities in the world, impacting it with education, with affluence, with politics, with perspectives, with ideologies. And as someone who's been in this community 24 years in

August I've seen that that influenced those perspectives ideologies those politics unfortunately start to infiltrate perhaps corrupt public school systems and it's made my wife and I dispirited and disenchanted and had us consider where we are going to place our two boys in particular our rising first grader who just finished kindergarten today's interview is one that I've been excited for since last week we had an email in our inbox that really got me thinking and it was from the fabulous Shelly Norton she is of the Virginia School Board Member Alliance, and this organization

is offering an alternative option for public school systems in the Commonwealth that may consider leaving the Virginia School Board Association. We'll talk about this not only with Shelly Norton, but we're going to have on set a courageous woman in Darlene Dawson of the Orange County School Board. Judah Wittkower behind the camera. I always give him props in the beginning of the show. Every team has a glue guy, someone who makes things work, keeps us on track, and it's this man right here, Judah Wittkower. If you can go to the studio camera and then a three shotshot as we welcome the ladies. Shelly, I'd love to start with you.

You organized this interview. I've been impressed with your level of communication, your organization, your network already, and I haven't really even had a chance to get to know you. The next hour, I will have a chance to get to know you, but first, why don't we have an opportunity for you to introduce yourself to all the folks that are watching the program. My name is Shelly Norton. I am the Marketing Director for the School Board Member Alliance. I am from Virginia, grew up in Fauquier County Public Schools, went all through public school, and then spent 22 years as an educator in Fauquier County. Had a front row seat to a lot of the the things that started coming into the school system the politics that i saw coming in um and started kind of looking behind the curtain to

see what was going wrong where was the school board you know why weren't they stepping in to provide any of this oversight um ended up getting together with a group of people and spma was formed and here we are so it's important emphasize this. 22 years as a teacher in public schools for Shelly Norton. A front row seat. She's speaking from a vantage point of experience. So I want to emphasize that. Let's go to our second guest. Man, I bet you your inbox has been flooded with emails and phone calls. Darlene Dawson of the Orange County School Board. The Orange County School Board was the third in the Commonwealth of Virginia to distance itself, and maybe that's not even applicable, to leave the Virginia School Board Association. Before we get into that, Darlene, if you can introduce yourself to all those that are watching

the program. Thank you so much. Well, I'm Darlene Dawson, a Virginia native. I was born in Manassas, Virginia, and actually I'm also a former native. I was born in Manassas, Virginia, and actually I'm also a former educator. I spent 34 years in the classroom in Manassas and then moved out to beautiful Orange County when I retired. I've been there eight years now, and it's a beautiful county. And post-COVID and some of the things that we saw happening, I became, I would use the word compelled, to put myself out there and run for the school board seat, which I won just at the last election.

So I have now been a board member for six months. And I actually ran, part of my platform was that I thought that we should leave the Virginia School Boards Association. And I had a laundry list of reasons for that. So that's what we did. Fifty-six years of education experience on the set today combined. Wow, that makes me feel old. Fifty-six combined. I highlight that not for any other reason but to say these ladies are on the front lines and have been on the front lines.

Okay, Shelly, the show is yours. Give us the flip book of the Virginia School Board Member Alliance, how it started, maybe even before it started, how it got percolated, how it started, how it got established. And now you have, is it six? We have six, yes. Six public school systems that are now members. The show is yours. Well, we have more than six. We have six. We'll get to that sure I guess a little bit later yeah so around oh gosh 20 I think it was 2022 prior to that a lot of us had been kind of fighting our own battles and in different areas you know trying to

expose things that were happening in the school system whether it was in Fauquier County it was deep equity you know the white privilege piece that was coming through there were things going on down in Suffolk. There were things going on in Virginia Beach. And everybody was trying to put out their own fires. Somehow we all ended up together on social media. It was a blessing. And I keep saying, had we all met earlier, I think that we would have had more success earlier. So around 2022, we came together in October. There were about 12 of us that got together and decided to form the School Board Member Alliance. Our goal was, one of the primary concerns that school board members had was that they were not being trained on what they can do. They were essentially trained that their only role as a school board member

was to hire a superintendent, pass his policy, and pass his budget. Going through the law, we realized that they had a far greater responsibility than that. So our mission is to provide our members with professional development on law, what they can do, because they have a lot of rights. They have a lot of rights. They have a lot of what's happening in schools. You know, in 2017, and I'll tell you, before COVID, academic achievement started to decline. It started in 2017, and that's when equity started coming into our school system.

A lot of school boards don't realize that their job is to oversee what's happening in these schools. It's not happening. Why isn't that happening? And then that goes back to, well, what were you trained? We were trained that we don't really have a role. We essentially work for the superintendent. No, no, no, no, no. That's not your job.

So that's why we came together, and that's kind of the professional development that we're providing our members to enable them to get into the schools. I mean, we've got places right now, the school board members, well, one of the laws is that school board members can go into public, well, they have to go into the public schools to make sure that they're being run efficiently, effectively. And we've got school board members that aren't even allowed to go into the schools. So how do you fix things if you can't even, you know, open the door and go in and see what's going on for yourself? So oftentimes when we're so close to something, we feel like we're almost in the eye of the storm. And I think many parents in Albemarle County and the city of Charlottesville feel that way. They're like, oh, my gosh, what's happening with Albemarle? What's happening with the city schools?

The performance has declined. Politics have infiltrated the schools. The school board members just seem to be rubber stamping whatever budget's in front of them. They're fast tracking extensions for superintendents in Alamaro County in particular before the November election. We're talking weeks before a November election when the entire makeup of the school board was going to change. The current members extended Dr. Matthew Haas' contract. Even the folks members extended dr matthew haas's contract even the folks that would have supported dr haas that were coming into office were shocked by this

we do not have the level of accountability on the board that i have frankly have felt comfortable with but as i've done research on this the trends and dynamics in charlottesville now moral county are also very similar in other aspects or other parts of the Commonwealth. This is a perfect segue for Darlene. The Orange County School Board, the third in the Commonwealth, and this jettison from the Virginia School Board Association, at least from my standpoint, seems to have gotten the most attention by media. I want to first start with an open-ended question for you.

Why did you vote to leave the Virginia School Board Association as a member of the Orange County School Board? Well, two of the members who have been seated now for two years had already brought this up in discussions prior to my time being on the board, but did not have the votes to approve it. And so I started, when I chose to run for school board, I started researching. And of course, being a former educator, I already, as Shelly is, know a lot about, you

know, the inner workings of those things like the VSBA. But I started researching, you know, what are the options? And in Virginia, there were no options. 100% of school boards were part of VSBA, and it seemed like that was the, many people perceived it as the requirement or the law or the code or that this is what you had to do, and there was actually no other option out there. So through a series of circumstances I was introduced to Shelly and Sherry story the chair of SBMA and they offered a candidate membership so during my year of running for school board I joined as

a candidate member and was able to partake in their amazing training sessions and networking with people. And what I found is exactly what Shelly just explained, a lot of information about what does the law require of a school board member. What's your duty? What is your oath to? And the two members who had been seated already for two years who were in favor of leaving already explained exactly what she just said that the perception is that our role on the school board is simply to take whatever the administration puts across our desk and say this is wonderful this is fine rubber stamp moving on to the next thing and just sort of be a cheerleader for the school division. And I am a cheerleader for our school division.

But trust but verify is my kind of mantra. And there were other members prior to me who said, well, you know, if you question the budget or if you question the superintendent, then that's showing lack of trust in them. And I just think that's a ridiculous statement to make. It's our role to hold those people accountable and to raise the standard for all of Orange County based on our adherence to our duty and the law. And so that's why I voted the way I did. years. And full disclosure, I have not personally been to a VSBA training because I knew ahead of time that it wasn't the direction I wanted to go. But I know and have talked to enough other board members and seen some videos and some trainings and some, and I still get their daily emails and I can see the direction.

Sadly, as you alluded to at the beginning, a lot of education has become incredibly politicized. One of the complaints I get all the time is get the politics out of education, but it's not my politics that have overtaken education. So just trying to step back a little bit towards a moderate center, you're accused of being a right-wing extremist, you know, all of the names they throw around. And no, I'm really just trying to do what the law requires and raise our level of excellence. Our educational systems have been, you know, look at 116 years, which direction have we been going? I don't think

any of us today would say that we're in a better shape than we were even a century ago. Trust but verify one of my favorite phrases. Ronald Reagan, of course, made that famous. I completely am of that mindset. I'm also of the mindset that you can challenge and hold people accountable while also being a champion and cheerleader for those that you're challenging and holding accountable. And that's exactly what you're talking about. I'd love to throw to Shelly, just set the stage for what the VSBA does. I don't think a lot of people know what the Virginia School Board Association is. Also, as a two-part question, what does the Virginia School Board Member Alliance, your organization, provide or do different than the VSBA?

First, if you could, set the stage for the VSBA and then talk to us of what your organization does differently. Well, the VSBA, it was part of the National School Board Association. So from the National School Board Association, they you know branches that formed all over the country and one of the things and the research that I've done there are groups similar to ours that are popping up all over the country. There's one in Texas, there's one in Pennsylvania and in speaking to the one in Texas they were encountering the same things. It was the super or basically school board members were taught there as well that their only role was to be the rubber stamp, hire superintendent, pass policy, pass budget.

So all of us were kind of encountering the same thing. As far, I honestly have not been to the VSBA, any VSBA trainings either. One of the things that they do is they allow superintendents to go to the trainings, and I think one of the problems that that has created is it's blurred. When they're being trained together, the boards and the superintendents, it's more of like a colleague rather than an employer-employee relationship that we believe needs to exist to manage schools effectively. So that's one of the key differences with us is that we do not allow superintendents to join. We are strictly a school board member association. We train school board members to do their job which is very different we believe from the role of a superintendent. I'd

love to throw Darlene a few questions here and comments are coming in for both you guys viewers and listeners. We can relay any of your questions or comments live on air. I will get to them in about five minutes. I have a few for myself. The Orange County School Board, if memory serves correct, voted 3-2 to leave the Virginia School Board Association. This vote, as it was covered by the media, was painted or portrayed, and maybe it was parents or those that voted no that also helped contribute to this portrayal, as a surprise vote because it was not on the agenda of the meeting that a vote was going to happen. Then a vote did take place, three twos a majority and a five member board in Orange County, the

sixth public school system to leave the VSBA. And this got a lot of attention in Central Virginia. I'd love for you to offer your perspective of what happened with the vote, what happened with the coverage afterwards, why it garnered so much attention, and perhaps most importantly, the feedback you are receiving now. Right. Well, the night of the vote, it's true that it was not on an action agenda. But as I mentioned previously, it had been brought up for discussion multiple times before in the two years prior to me being seated. And then since January,

it had come forward. So we had been in discussions about it prior to the vote. And also in individual discussions, of course, because of FOIA law, meeting law, we can't, the five of us can't sit down and talk about anything without it being public. But in individual conversations, you know, each of us talked together and we knew which direction we were planning to go. And the two who voted against were well aware that, you know, they did not have the majority. They couldn't rule the day. So the fact that it's been portrayed as a surprise, I don't think is entirely true. Okay. If in the sense that it was not on the agenda as an action

item, I suppose that there's an argument to be made for that. Why was it not on the agenda as an action item? That's a good question. It probably should have been. Okay. But it was listed as consideration of the VSBA membership is the way it was listed under under board member items. And because the VSBA membership expired in June, one of the members decided to go ahead and make a motion. And the way that she phrased the motion was in the positive. I moved to renew the VSBA membership to join VSBA again. And so then one of the members who was opposed to leaving seconded that motion and then the chair called for discussion

and there was no discussion because the assumption was that it was a favorable motion to staying in. But then three of us voted against. So that's where some, I think, got the impression that it was kind of an underhanded sort of move. I didn't see it that way because I knew that the five of us were, at least my understanding from discussions with each member, was that everyone knew where we stood and where we were heading. This was part of your platform when you ran. It was.

Yeah. So you put this front and center. Absolutely. Yeah. So for anyone to say it was a surprise, I think is a little bit disingenuous because they wanted, in my opinion, they wanted to create an argument and an uproar and get it in the media and make it seem like we were doing something slimy um but there was no surprise how's okay what's been the feedback well how's your inbox how the phone calls and how the conversations at the grocery store the tasty freeze right well

you know i i guess the the upside to it becoming such a um you know, so well covered in the media, although media very often, I think, takes a slanted view. So there's been, you know, some of the coverage has been pretty one-sided. So you're saying leaning left? Leaning left. Okay. More like an op-ed instead of actual coverage of the facts. And I even, I put out on my Facebook page and, you know, in the community my there's a whole letter of my reasons for actually I brought a copy

with me you know here here are my reasons come at me if you if you have questions if you want to know why these are my reasons why and one of the one of the newspapers asked if they could print this and I said sure I have nothing to hide this is exactly how I feel exactly why I voted what I ran on and I was elected anyway so I'm assuming that the constituents are in favor of what I'm saying so it became a big a big deal the the night we made the vote was not a public comment night the next meeting was a public comment so in that two-week interval there was a lot of motion in the community,

a lot of people who were not in favor of our vote who sort of riled up the masses and all came with their same shirt colors and their same talking points. But the good side was that we had a majority of people who are in favor of our vote who also showed up at that meeting and gave it was it was almost a three two our way divide and so I have been getting a lot of negative feedback I say a lot that that's maybe not accurate I've there's there's a certain group of people that I can count on. If I said, boy, it's hot today, they would find issue with that. That's just the way it is. So there's that group of people who are going to oppose regardless.

But there's an awful lot of people who have come out and said, we support you. This is what we would like to see. I ran on change. I ran on getting us back to educational excellence and getting rid of the nonsense that we don't need in education anyway. It's not helping students. It's causing divides that we don't need. And so I do feel like we have an awful lot of support. After Orange County left the VSBA, I covered this on this show. And then I predicted that other schools would follow. I thought Madison County Public Schools would follow. And then I predicted that other schools would follow. I thought Madison County

public schools would follow. And the reasoning for that statement was the renaming of holidays within the public school system. They're now calling winter break Christmas break. There is a level of neutrality, perhaps even more conservatism in that public school system, and its proximity to Orange as well. During one of our shows, we get a message from someone within the school system saying, we are choosing to renew. Literally, while we're live on air talking about this, Madison chose to renew with the VSBA. However, another one close in proximity, Rockingham, soon followed suit. And we talked on this show, we think momentum is going to continue toward the Virginia School Board Member Alliance. The first one is always the most challenging.

The first one, I believe, if memory serves, was Warren County. The second one was at Bedford. Bedford. Okay, second was Warren County. The second one, was that Bedford? Bedford. Okay, second was Bedford. Then we had, was it Isle of Wight? I had to write this down. Orange was the third one. Orange was the third.

Yeah, Isle of Wight was fourth. Okay. Rockingham, and then Shenandoah just two nights ago. Okay, Shenandoah. So the momentum is gaining here. Yes. This is, in a lot of ways, your role here. How do you utilize the momentum to continue raising awareness for your effort, the organization, and to further gain steam with membership?

We have grown over the past year and a half primarily through word of mouth. We want people joining our alliance that want to fix public schools, that want to change public schools. As more of these schools start to leave, we're clearly getting into the news and it's helping us. More people are learning about us. The first year, it was really tough. I think that any time you try to start a new association or a new alliance, people are hesitant because it's like, oh, are they going to be here in a year? You know, are they still going to be around? So we made that year mark. And then starting in January, our membership number started to increase. I'll tell you, we're still small. So increasing in smaller numbers is good for us

because we're kind of, you know, learning our way. Yeah, you're learning.'re learning. You're getting feedback from everyone that joins and improving the model. Right, but every time we do something like this, we'll get emails asking for more information, how can we get involved, and that's really what we want. Ultimately, we would love for more parents to step up, get involved, learn more about the role of the board, and maybe run themselves down the road because this is a long, we've got a lot of work to do I think to fix the schools and if I could please you don't mind interjecting one

of the things I really liked about SBMA is that it's not a full board membership our board has no intention of the board joining SBMA because it's an individual membership so if I choose, then that's on me. VSBA is the opposite. If your board is in it, then everybody is a member. And what's the cost? Is it roughly $12,000, $13,000 for the VSBA? It depends on the size of your school division.

I don't know. What were you paying for yours? I was right at $14,000. $14,000. And that's just for membership. Right. You pay additional fees for any training that you go to. Conferences, superintendent search.

They offer a bunch of services that are, yeah. But they're all additional expense. Okay. And ours is $250. So what, okay, understood. So when I went to the, Shelley's website is mysbma.org. I'll highlight it again, mysbma.org. That's one thing that startled me when I looked at the price points.

Friend of SBMA, $100. SBMA Associate, member $75. SBMA Full Membership, $250. I was startled by the price. But it's important to emphasize these for individual people and not school systems in totality. Correct. Another thing I need to emphasize this, I believe there's roughly almost exact 129 public school systems in Virginia. 129 total. Six have joined the SBMA as of...

No, no, no. Okay. So the six that have left, six have left the VSBA. Oh, six have left the VSBA because you're right. It's individual members that are a part of it. So we have members and we currently represent about one-tenth of the school divisions in Virginia. Get out of town. That's pretty good. It is. In a year and a half, we're really pleased with ourselves. No, you should be pleased with us.

So we need to put that in perspective again here. Give us the snapshot of the numbers and the metrics, and I'll get to view our listener comments here. How many have left the Virginia School Board Association at six? There are six that have left, yes. And two more that are getting ready to go. Two more that are getting ready. You want to let us know who they are? I'll update you when it happens. Are you sure you don't want to say that? Well, one of them was in the Richmond paper this past weekend in Hanover is one that's considering right now. So that, I think it might be Hanover.

Okay. And then membership for your organization is done individually. So how many of the members, school board members of the Commonwealth, are a part of your organization? You said basically one-tenth, ten percent? So there's about, yes. So there's approximately 800 school board members in Virginia. So we've got right now approximately 80. Good for you guys.

You guys are gaining steam. I have a feeling the momentum is going to be even greater as more people join. The other thing I want to point out too is that we're a 501c3, we're nonpartisan, we're getting billed as far right and as far as getting politics out of school, I don't know how we've gotten to a point where if you're for parent rights, you're far right. You know, if you're for academic achievement, you're far right. I don't even know if we're in a time right now where you can get politics out of school because everything's been made political. That's sad. That's one of the best statements I've heard in the history of this network here. The statements that you just made right there

calls Terry McAuliffe the governor's mansion because McAuliffe was marginalizing parent rights with school systems not once not twice but three times and a lot of ways those three statements that McCullough said propelled Yunkin to victory because Yunkin was pro parent we can have beef with what Yunkin has done from time to time but that cost McCullough the election right there can you say that again I don't see how being you say that again? I don't see how being far, I think you said, I don't

see how being far right is pro-academic achievement and championing parents' rights with their kids. And safety, school safety, that's another one too. So if you bring those up, all of a sudden you're considered a far right organization, and that's what we're being built,

and we really, and I think I can speak for most of us, none of us want politics in school. But how do you keep it out when everything is political? So that, you know, this is kind of a challenge, I think, as we move forward for everyone, really. Well, how do we get to the point where pro-parent rights and putting academic achievement and safety of students is, I mean, my standpoint, this is what

school should be. School should be keep the kids safe, number one. Number two, get the kids learning in the right way, academic achievement, number two. Number three, make sure they're communicating with the parents what's happening in the schools. Number four, let's get them well-routed with some extracurriculars if their academic achievements are good enough for them to participate in extracurriculars. That's what I want for our boys. I mean, it seems very straightforward here. When did we get to the point where those four things became labeled far right? Good question.

Is that a byproduct of COVID? Was that happening before COVID? I think that, well, I think some of it was coming in through equity, right? Equal outcomes, not equal opportunity. And, you know, I think everybody is 100% for equal opportunity. Everybody should have the opportunity to have a high quality public education in a safe environment. But that doesn't guarantee equal outcomes. So, and that's another, that would be another discussion. The impact of COVID that you've seen with your school system. I think an awful lot gets blamed on COVID. But a lot of our issues predate COVID by, by a decade or better, I would say.

Our biggest, our biggest challenge is coming out of COVID. However, currently it's getting the attendance rates back up. You know, we shut schools down and gave the message that you don't need to be in school. You can learn online just fine or, you know, just it's not that important. And so now as we're trying to get back to excellence and getting them there, we can't teach them if they're not in the seats. So that's been a challenge for us in Orange County is trying to, and we've, we've made some strides. There's, there's been a lot of forward progress, but we still have issues with attendance being below the, the standard.

And then also just the, the academic achievement rates on the, on the test scores and, you know, trying to raise the bar there. But honestly, the standards themselves prior to COVID were lowered, you know, from the state level. The standards were lowered. So you can now get a passing grade, but you're performing at a lot lower level than you once were. So those, I would say, are the two biggest.

The governor exposed a lot of that, too. He did. He created that. I'm trying to remember what that packet was that he pushed out. But what they found was that there were students passing SOLs, you know, third, fourth grade, with a 40%. Right. So what do you pass with a 40%? Our promise to Virginians or something like that that has.

And then if you make an equivalency between our SOL scores and the NAEP scores, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, that's the national level. Virginia was coming in 50th on several. You can look it up online under the Governor's Our Promise to Virginians packet, and it shows you the whole 50 states. And Virginia was pathetic. And for a state that's been known for academic excellence since the founding, it's just distressing to see the direction we've gone. And so, as Shelley just said, our goal, my goal, is regaining that academic level of excellence and expectation for our students. And it has nothing to do with politics. Truly nothing to do with politics, truly nothing to do with politics or religion. I'm accused of that a lot too,

because I ran very openly. I believe in transparency. So I ran very openly as a conservative Christian, biblical worldview. That's where I'm coming from. And I won. And now that doesn't mean that I want to start opening every board meeting with prayer

or reading the Bible. It just means that's who I am if you don't like that then vote for the other person but I was elected and so I believe that standpoint is we just want to do what's good and right for students we don't want pornographic books in our libraries. We don't want inequality by this imposed DEI government-mandated thing. Am I all about diversity? Yes. But they don't allow diversity of thought at all. It's think our way, do our way, be this way, and don't dare step out of line.

And I'm not going to accept that. I sold this. And why don't I get to comments here, and then I'll offer some firsthand perspective. This is coming in via Twitter. Such an interesting point from Darlene about pressure not to hold staff superintendents accountable. It is very much what people complain about with Charlottesville City Council as well. The elected officials become captured by staff. I'm very curious, he says, what they think about why this dynamic happens. Why the elected officials become captured,

influenced, or rubber stamping policy of staff as opposed to holding staff accountable? I can take that one. Take that one, Cheryl. So I think that when people run for office, there's no real training. You know, you're just kind of thrown into this position, and you're thrown in with this group, you know, in the school system. You're thrown in with the superintendent who's the expert and knows everything and a staff that knows everything, and then here you are over here, and if you don't have training, you almost have to rely on them for everything because you don't really understand what your job is.

I think probably that is the core reason for our being. School board members need that training. I think all elected officials need some type of training and it shouldn't be a partisan training. It should be their responsibilities under the law. You know, this is what you can do. This is what you can't do. But I think that's what happens as a result of a lack of training. Why, you know, maybe this is a naive statement.

Isn't there a level of common sense, though, that comes with once you're elected for office the common sense or your your instinct or your radar says I shouldn't just be green lighting everything I should be pushing I mean I mean maybe it's the influence of my wife who holds me accountable every single day everything I'm doing may not be right that that's why I am but is it this common sense in a lot of ways here I think people I think that it is. And I think when school board members or elected officials anywhere, they want to do their job and they want to hold people accountable. But then they ask for the information that they need to make those decisions or to make that happen. And they're told, no, you can't have that.

And then they don't know where to go. It's like, oh, wait a minute. He said I can't have this. And you're almost put in your place and then you just sit and you quietly do your jobs or about your time. And in my case, when I was first elected, we were right in the middle of a budget cycle. And the budget, of course, is a huge big deal in every division.

And I mean, I've been an educator, but I hadn't dealt with, outside of my own department budget, I hadn't dealt with an entire division's budget. So I had a lot of questions. And so I sent a lot of questions to our financial officer and our superintendent. And my impression is that they weren't happy with all of those questions, that they weren't happy with needing to explain to me why are we spending this and how did we end up with that and they pushed back you know in my case they did it in a very kind way um it wasn't you know

uncomfortable but i just i just felt like and some of it happened by email too so it wasn't face-to-face so i just felt this pushback that um because that had never happened before in our county at least not for the recent memory. It was always that, OK, this is good. These are the educational professionals. And so they are giving us what they need. And we are going to say, OK, this is we're just going to sign this and say fine. And so I don't think they were accustomed to needing to justify what they were doing.

But I think that is the position we need to hold them to. You need to justify what you're doing and why, and how is it helping our children? 100%. We had a very unique situation happen in Alamaro County. And the rebranding or the renaming of schools is happening everywhere. There are some in the Valley that were rebranded or renamed, then flipped back to their original monikers. That recently was in the news. Shenandoah.

Shenandoah. Yeah. Was it Stonewall Jackson? Yes. That was one of them. Yeah. So this happened in Amarillo County. A school was originally named Meriwether Lewis Elementary.

And this elementary school is one of the top performing elementary schools in the entire Commonwealth. And it's a tight-knit community. It's a small community. It's an affluent community. It's homogenous and it's a demographic. And prior to the renaming, a survey was sent out to parents and I believe even teachers as well, certainly parents. And the survey results were overwhelmingly to keep the name the same. I mean, I'm talking like 80, 90% in favor of keeping the name the same. Then, despite the survey results, a renaming committee was created of parents by the superintendent's office. This renaming committee overwhelmingly said we want to keep the name the same.

We don't want to change it from Meriwether Lewis Elementary. And then the renaming committee, one of the members on the renaming committee, reached out to us on the show with our platform and said, this is what happened. We then had the superintendent and his cabinet come in and say, no, you don't understand. Despite the survey results and despite the renaming committee wanting to keep it the same, we're going to change it. And before you vote again, we're going to make some, we're going to change the rules. You're going to watch this video on diversity, equity, and inclusion.

And this private vote that was done by a secret, no, no, no, this public vote where people could see you voting is now going to be turned into a private vote where people don't know the results except for me. And then the school was renamed to Ivy Elementary. And this was intel that was passed along to us literally from someone with a renaming. That shocked me, and I'm going to throw it to you. That seemed to be an opportunity for school board members to push back on the superintendent and say, you have done this wrong. You've created these protocols to figure out what to do. The protocols suggested keeping it the same, yet you came in and changed

it. You should not be doing this. But the school board was silent in that regard. But the school board was probably like-minded with the superintendent. 100%. The school board is, in a lot of ways, the, I don't want to say the lieutenants of the superintendent, but on the same team, certainly. That's why we were following, and then I'm going to pass it on to you. That's why we were following the at-large race with Allison Spillman and Dr. Meg Bryce so closely. I think it might have been the most followed school board race in American history. I mean, it was written about in the Washington Post, the Richmond Times Dispatch.

And having a different voice on the board, I think, would have been good for just basic communication. Would she have been able to have done a lot of stuff as the lone voter on the board? Probably not. It's a seven-person board. But she at least could have peppered the trail or papered the trail from the dais and said, this is what I'm thinking, which could have gotten the conversation going, which would have been different from the current superintendent's ideology. So I'm going to throw any of this to you here. I see Shelly's got something she wants to say. You've got a lot of stuff you want to say.

So individual board members, I know it's a very frustrating place to be when you're in the minority. But they serve a very important role. And really it's giving everybody a look at what's going on behind the curtain. Because, you know, if you've got that one person that can show you, like, this is what's being discussed and this is what's happening, that's so important for transparency in the community. Well, I think one of the early discussions that I had was about our organizational chart. Because the perception is that the superintendent is at the top of that chart, and that's not the case. The community is at the top of the chart.

I should be responsive to my community, the citizens of Orange County. The taxpayers that fund the school system. The taxpayers, exactly. So at the top of our chart is our community, followed by us, the school board. The school board, in a business terminology the chair people of the board that hold the ceo the superintendent accountable in every business setting this is a clear-cut hierarchy right but in in school yeah it's the other way it's been flipped the perception has been flipped and now we have to work on flipping it back yeah in a lot

of ways and i'll throw it back to you in a lot of ways, and I'll throw it back to you, in a lot of ways, and I 1,000% agree with what you just said, in a lot of ways in public schools in Virginia, it's not the taxpayers that are atop the pyramid. It's the superintendent. Yes. And then it's the superintendent, and then it's the school board, and then it's the taxpayers. Yes. Which is just mind-boggling. It's completely backwards.

It's completely backwards. It's complete. Comments coming in. This one for Shelly. Will they make sure school boards understand the homeschool statues so when superintendents overstep, they are also held accountable as well? I mean, we cover all laws. So taxpayers are, you know, the homeschool, they're everywhere.

And school boards represent all of those people. So, I mean, short answer, yes. The law is very clear. Yeah. There should be no question, we, we, short answer, yes. Yeah. The law is very clear. Yeah. There should be no question, but divisions often do try to overstep. Okay. Here's, I was going to add to with that. Well, I was just thinking about the school, the school situation, and that's a question that I've gotten a lot because our vice chair is on the board. He's the, the chairman on the board in Shenandoah. So I've gotten a lot of emails from media asking about how we felt about the decision to go back to the old names of the schools. And the response to that is that he is on our board.

We are not pushing an agenda. Our professional development is focused on law. The bottom line, like Darlene said, school board members are elected by the people in their community. That's who their allegiance is to, and that's the will that they should be providing. When did school board races become tied to political parties? It was always my understanding that school board races were politically neutral. And this past election, we very clearly started seeing allegiances or alliances to parties almost right next to their name on the ballot in a lot be, it seems in 2024 that school board races, in a lot of ways, are stepping stones for higher offices. And as they've become stepping stones for higher offices, the politics associated with the higher office that the candidate wants to pursue

is starting to infiltrate policy, commentary on the daisis thought process on the dais for school board members themselves because they have a bigger picture in front of them anywhere you want to go with that I ran in 2019 and there were political parties that were endorsing candidates and one of the the interviews that or one group that reached out to me was the teachers union and have you know having been a teacher I did not want that endorsement. So I didn't even apply for it. Did they reach out to you when you ran?

No, because I was very clear from the beginning. So I think that the politics have probably been around for a while. I think that it's just more visible now. Sadly, education really just has become political. If you look at the NEA, the union, I think it was the statistics from maybe 2019 or 2020 that I most recently read, $140 million of political donations, 98% to the left. So what does that tell you about our education association? VEA, the Virginia affiliate, something like 2,086 or so percent to the left. But then they come at somebody like me, who is openly a conservative, ran that way on purpose.

That was a deliberate choice. I did have the endorsement of our Orange County Republican Committee. And I put that out there deliberately because I want you to know where my views align going into this. This is what you're going to get if you vote Darlene Dawson. That's who I am. And so I think COVID and all of the shutdowns opened the eyes to a lot of that kind of, you know, you can go on the NEA website and look at some of their videos or VEA, and you'll see much of the left-wing push, and it's in a lot of our teacher training as well. And so I think the pushback and the way

things sort of became more openly political is because the curtain was kind of ripped away during COVID for how political education actually has become. Because most of us, I mean, if you survey parents, they'll mostly say our schools are wonderful. It's the other school divisions that are having problems, you know, because we want to believe that everything is great on our side of the street. But in truth, there's just been a lot of behind-the-scenes politicization of education. What has been the feedback you have received? I mean, you in a lot of ways are, I don't want to call it the eye of the storm here, but you're the, would you call yourself the face of the organization as the outreach director? I would say there are two of us that are kind of fronting a lot of this. And I'm proud to be in this seat.

I'm proud of what we've accomplished. I'm proud to, I truly believe in what we're doing. So a lot of the pushback that we, I would say the most pushback that we have received is coming from superintendents, which is amazing to me because this is a school board association, a school board alliance for their training. Why does that involve superintendents? And I understand why they're pushing back because now school board members are learning what their job is, and it's like, oh, wait a minute, you know, we don't want you doing that.

So that's been the bulk of the pushback. One of our reasons for wanting to disassociate from VSBA was exactly that, that VSBA training teaches the rubber stamp method. You know, and superintendents are happy for you to just never question them. And I love our superintendent. We have a fabulous superintendent in Orange County. but just some of my questions to him, I believe he's a little bit unsure now that there's an expectation of accountability and not just a, that sounds wonderful, let's go with it sort of mentality from all members of the board. Well, the other thing I found interesting, too, with the BSBA is that superintendents also attend that training.

In fact, so many superintendents go that VAS, the Virginia Association of School Superintendents also attend that training. In fact, so many superintendents go that VAST, the Virginia Association of School Superintendents, holds meetings at the same time as BSBA. Because they're there already. Yeah. It's like one big happy family. So these groups have merged. I guess at the national level, I was just told the other day by someone in Youngkin's office that they call them the blob at the national level, and it's really no different at the state level.

You've got these organizations. If you watch when they lobby, they're in lockstep. You'll see VEA step up to the mic, then you'll see VSBA, and then you'll see the politicians sitting there, and it's like, well, they know VAS is coming next. You know, they're all arguing the same thing, or they're all pushing for the same. It's really a huge educational bureaucracy that sort of is a blob. It just marches in lockstep. And the collateral damage of that is the academic achievement that has slipped,

the quality of life for teachers perhaps, staff and aides, bus drivers, the lack of communication with parents. I mean, it's just unfortunate. Well, we're all paying more as taxpayers. You know, the poor people spending continues to increase. You've got more parents that are pulling their children out of public school. But school divisions never have enough money. You know, you've got fewer kids, but there's not enough money.

Well, and it's snowball snowball because as more kids leave the schools the money becomes diminished to support the schools and as less money goes to the schools of course performance is going to be impacted by that right but but even with the schools going you know that the size is shrinking and their studies actually had a UVA that I think it's the Woodson what's in Carter study where they they project the student population over the next five years. And you'll see drops. Weldon Cooper.

Weldon Cooper, yes. Thank you. I was trying to think of it. I knew that wasn't quite right. Weldon Cooper, I'm sorry. I don't know where I got that other name from. It just came right out. Hamilton Lombard, the statistician put it together.

It's fantastic. And his projections show that public school enrollment is going to decline significantly. Right. So why aren't school boards looking at consolidating schools right now? That's something that should be happening in those comprehensive plans that they're legally required to put together. Walk me through that concept, the consolidating of schools. Well, I mean, when you see that your population is dwindling, you need to start looking at, okay, well, why do we have three schools open?

Maybe we can get by with two. I mean, why keep that third one? And I know a couple of divisions that are now looking into that because now they understand the comprehensive plan and this is something that they are supposed to be monitoring as a board. It's a great way to save money. But then you get pushed back on the other side because, well, teachers are going to lose their jobs.

Kids are going to be longer on a bus. Yeah, yeah. But, I mean, in some cases, I know in Fauquier County, we've got two elementary schools that are within, I would say, four miles of each other. One's got 200 kids. One's got three. You know, close down one.

Combine them. I bet you that's a hot-button topic. Yes. Yeah, I was going to say that. That would be a hot-button topic. But if you need to save money, you know, that's right there. Oh, 100%. Well, how you position that with those that are pushing back is this is going to potentially diminish your tax exposure.

And most people vote with their wallets. Yeah. Which is the point that you would probably make. All right, we'll close with this. Question for each of you. Shelly, I'll go first. What are the, call it the 12-month goals for your organization?

And then how can you see your organization truly becoming an almost equivalent in market share or membership option when compared to the VSBA?

So short-term goals, and then how do you increase membership significantly over the long term? Short-term goals, I think just continuing to get our message out there, meet up with new school board members, hopefully have our own members that are currently with us reaching out and helping expose our alliance as well. VSBA has been around a long time. They are currently sitting on about $18 million. So there's no way that we're not going to reach that height. They have $18 million on hand right now to lobby?

Yes. And to do what they want? And the problem is, so they've got this, I don't know if you, so they're currently being sued by a Hanover parent. They are considered a, and I can't remember what the IRS status is, but it's a government essential business, but they are not subject to FOIA. So you don't really know how that money is being spent, and a lot of it's taxpayer money that they're using to lobby.

And that's another area that we won't lobby. A lot of our members have said this is one of the areas that we don't agree with. So we're not doing it. We're not going to do it. Our goal really is to provide school board members with the training that they need to provide the governance oversight that's necessary to get our schools back. Do you think the VSBA is a lobbying arm first? They self-describe as a lobbying.

Yeah. That is their top priority? I don't know that they would list it as their top priority, but it's certainly listed. Yeah, and they spend quite a bit of time doing it. Have you seen the commentary that's been on the VSBA website and blog of late since you guys have gained traction? Yes. They are extremely aware of your organization. On the homepage, and this was brought to my attention by a viewer and listener, on the homepage right now, they have one post, call it a blog post if you may, but it's on the homepage, it's highlighted,

Mythbusting, the Nonpartisan Role of the Virginia School Board Association, a second one, Addressing Misconceptions about the Virginia School Board Association, and a third, Development of Adoption of School Board Policies, all of which have been published recently since your organization has gained media momentum. So from my standpoint, that's an indication of what you're doing is at least papering the trail or papering the record, which, you know, props to you there. This is from Earliesville, Vanessa Parkhill. School boards and schools started to become political when leadership,

both within schools and in communities, started to slice and dice students into groups and attach labels with regard to achievement to groups rather than individual students. In addition, when some people blame one group for the success or failure of another group, that can create divisive feelings within the community. Children are multifaceted individuals who should be seen as such. Our students deserve better. And she also asks, is there a way community members can support Shelly's organization? Yes.

Go to mysbma.org and become a friend of. And we would love to have. So that's what that is. Yes. Yes. A friend of. Okay. So, yes.

We would appreciate that. Mysbma.org. Scroll down about halfway, yes, we really appreciate that. MySBMA.org. Scroll down about halfway, guys, down to the home page, and there's an opportunity for you to donate $100 for a one-year subscription period and become a friend of the organization. Donate and support to the organization is what that is for. And I do agree with everything she just said. So do I.

So do I so do I yes so do I me too and somewhere my wife is nodding her head over some iced coffee as well I'll throw this to you Darlene do you see Orange County Public Schools county, public schools potentially permanently distanced or removed from the Virginia School Board Association? Or is this a reflection of the current election cycle and dynamic of the board? I think everything is going to be a reflection of the current election cycle. The two others who voted in favor will be up for re-election next November, a year from now. And so we'll see what that brings. If the board flips the other way, very likely they would vote to rejoin VSBA.

So here's the follow-up question for you, and I think you already know what the follow-up question is going to be. Is this going to be one of the primary questions asked of future school board members of districts and systems across the Commonwealth, I would think as a taxpayer and as a parent, I would want to know where this elected official stands with which organization. I think there's that potential. But in all honesty, until it became so blown up by media and by people who wanted to push it out there to make it controversial. If you walked up to an everyday citizen in Orange County and said, what do you think about VSBA?

They wouldn't even know what you're talking about. It's a school board member association. So unless you follow board matters closely, it's nothing that you're going to be aware of necessarily. And very few probably were until some of the divisions now have started, you know, taking a different route. And what I love about it, about what SBMA offers and about the opportunity to step away from VSBA is now there's a choice. Yeah, yeah, options. In America, we like options.

We don't like monopolies. We want a choice. And so I really do believe that's what SBMA offers us. And I mean, it does have the potential to become an issue in future elections. Ladies, an hour flies by. I appreciate your time.

Anything you want Shelly to get out that has not gotten out there? I feel like this is a pretty comprehensive conversation, Speck. Yes, and we could probably go on for another couple of hours. There's so much, but thank you so much for giving us this platform and allowing us to explain a little bit about our group.

I feel like there have been some misconceptions about us as well, and I just want people to know that we're not like this far-right, crazy, extreme group, but we're really focused on the law and providing school board members with that professional development they need to do their job successfully, which is represent all of us, you know, the taxpayers. So that's our mission, and to get the focus back on academic excellence and a safe environment.

It's not, yeah, we're not way out there. Right, and I can say from experience the trainings I've had with SBMA have been on procurement procedures and how to use the VDOE assessment tool for your superintendent to do an evaluation correctly and how to look at the budget properly and FOIA law and Robert's Rules of Order and nothing far right in any of that list it's all very law focused what the standards of quality require school board members to you know to sign that we are in compliance within our school division it's all law. It's all been law.

It's been a wonderful organization. I endorse it fully. And I thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, I appreciate that. The interview was truly my pleasure. I love doing interviews like this. I learned so much. Shelly and Darlene, thank you, thank you so much for your time.

I'm very appreciative. Viewers and listeners that are asking, I see it on the feed. The show is archived all over social media, every platform, and wherever you get your podcasting content. The website is mysbma.org, mysbma.org. Something tells me that this is going to be a storyline to follow for a long period ahead of us. The School Board Member Alliance offering an option to the Virginia School Board Association. That's today's program. Thank you kindly for joining us on the show.

For Shelly and Darlene and our director and producer Judah Wickhower, my name is Jerry Miller, and this is the I Love Seville Show. So long.