The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - The Kyle Miller Show: Adrienne Stronge Of The Gaines Group Architects Joined Kyle Miller

Episode Date: May 9, 2024

Adrienne Stronge, Principal & Director of Multi-Family at The Gaines Group Architects, joined Kyle Miller live on The Kyle Miller Show! The Kyle Miller Show airs live Thursday from 2:15 pm – 3 pm on The I Love CVille Network. Watch and listen to The Kyle Miller Show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, iTunes, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Fountain, Amazon Music, Audible and iLoveCVille.com.

Welcome everyone to the show. I'm your host Kyle Miller and today we're on a mission to bring you stories from people right here in our community doing amazing things. Right here in Charlottesville, people who are helping communities, helping build, helping grow, and we're here to bring you those stories from those individuals to share and to show you what's really going on in town. So before we get to that, a word from our sponsors. Today's show is brought to you by Apex Allies, your key to slashing costs and boosting productivity with Apex Allies. You gain access to exceptional virtual assistance at half the traditional cost, transforming how you handle admin tasks. Say goodbye to overwhelm and hello to more time focusing on business growth. Apex

Allies offers the support you need and the financial strain, making it easier to prioritize what truly matters. Visit GoApexAllies now to elevate your business efficiency with Apex Allies. So, guys, with that, today, our guest, principal, director of multifamily, with the gains group, architects, Adrienne Strong. How are you doing today? I'm doing well, thanks. Thanks for showing up.

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm super excited about the show today because, obviously, I do a lot with real estate. I buy, sell, fix, flip, hold rentals. And I'm just super interested when we first started chatting about your experiences and everything that you do and what's going on in town and so I was just like oh man I really I want to have this conversation because I'm just that's me you know so let's let's first kick it off you're the director of multifamily for the gains group architects? And you design apartment complexes for investors to come in and build these for affordable unit housing. Is that correct? Not always affordable

unit. We do a lot of luxury apartments, apartment communities as well, all over Virginia. Oh, nice. So not just in Charlottesville. What other towns are you working in currently? So most of what we're doing right currently is in Charlottesville. What we've done in the past couple of years, Lightfoot, Christiansburg, Winchester, and then a bunch just outside of town. So Ruckersville, Louisa, Old Trail, and Crozet. Okay. So, yeah. Okay. So nice. So how big. Okay. So, nice.

So, how big are the units? It probably varies across the board, right? It varies drastically. So, we've done units as small as, you know, 500 square feet up to, you know, 2,000 for a three-bedroom townhouse-style unit. Okay. So, yeah, a wide range of unit unit styles and types and it really depends on the target market and where we're building right okay the how did you did you

always have a desire to design um apartment buildings how did this all come about uh i wouldn't say i went to it with a desire to design apartment buildings. When I graduated from UVA, though, one of my final design studios was the EcoMod studio, which we were building a replacement house in Mississippi after Hurricane Katrina. So it was a partnership with Habitat for Humanity, and we were really focused on building efficient, smaller housing. And so I had this idea of wanting to do sustainable design and did a lot of residential before I started diving into multifamily.

But I realized that I sort of had the best of both worlds with apartment communities because I get to get that efficient design with the apartment units and then really explore the design capabilities in the amenity spaces, like the clubhouses and the fitness rooms and the pools. I love designing pools. Yeah. So, yeah.

Also, my father-in-law was in a wheelchair. I married young, and so was very, very close to him. And so navigating the built environment with somebody who was disabled gave me a passion to want to learn more about how to design for differing abilities. And with apartment complexes, there's a lot of rules that have to apply due to fair housing. So I sort of fell into that role because of my interest there and attention to detail and knowing those codes. That's funny because I believe, truly believe that, um, life happens for you, not to you. So just you having these experiences that lead into other

things that you're able to really expand on and go, Oh, I really have a passion for this, right? So all these little things that are placed in life is it, that's cool. I really, I really, um, I really truly believe that. So when you're getting into the art, and you went to UVA. You're a graduate of UVA, right? And then did you just start working with the Gaines Group right out of school? I did, yeah. They hired me before graduation, and so I went to work there immediately.

Well, I went down for a week to assemble the house. We had built it in an aircraft hangar here off of Milton and then trucked it down to Mississippi. So I went down there for a week to help put that house together and then started. Oh, that was probably a pretty cool experience. It was a really cool experience. Yeah. So you did that and then you came back, started working for them. What was kind of like for somebody who's, who would be interested in something like your job now, what was kind steps that you took to get to the position you're at now? I know they didn't throw, hey, here's a $40 million project. Have fun.

One thing my boss says is that engineers know a lot about one thing, and architects are required to know a little about a lot of things. And so there's nobody who comes right out of school knowing right off the bat how to do architecture. They teach you in school how to think, architecture theory, architecture history. You learn how to sort of think big picture outside the box. And then you graduate and there's codes and there's, there's so many codes. Um, there's local codes and national codes and state codes, and then the accessibility codes and, um, and then structural design, which you have to know details. You have to keep water out of buildings and it's just on and on and on and on. So just being willing to sit down and, and learn

all of those little things and figure out what you're passionate about and then focus there. I think one of the things that helped me was I did start with this small firm. So I had the ability to look at a bunch of different projects and do a bunch of different positions for those projects, do a bunch of different research for those projects. So it sort of gave me a good idea of what I was good at, what I wanted to explore further and sort of develop those things that I like to do. It's funny, the thing, how you keep water out of projects. I say this to everybody that's in like house flipping business or anything that does anything with houses.

Water sustains life, but it will also trash everything that you have. It's so important. Right. And I'm not going to name any projects, but we have definitely walked in to do some remedy after the fact because it was not dealt with efficiently. Yeah. So it's – and it can wreck havoc quickly. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. Um, so it's, and, and it can wreck havoc quickly. Yeah. It's, it's amazing. Yeah. You know, the thing that sustains life can also just, yeah. Cause hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage very fast. Very quickly. Yes. Um, so I, I just find that

funny. Um, do you think it's easier to, or do, or do you recommend the route that you did? Because it kind of sounds like you get, so from somebody on the outside looking in going, oh, I like that route that you took to going from, you know, you got to have your hand in a lot of different projects and kind of get an experience and take you in the right direction, opposed to maybe a much, much larger firm where you go in and you got just, this is your one thing that you do. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to that? It's hard for me to say, cause I don't have any experience with the big firms. There are definitely some benefits that big firms can provide. There's a lot of benefits that big firms can provide that smaller firms just can't provide. But in terms of what I learned, where I am, what I'm working on,

I really like the route I took. I really love my job. So that's good. So I think it did it well. Yeah. That's good. What do you think, what is the most challenging thing about your position? Right now, the most challenging thing is going out and selling jobs because I am not a salesperson. And it's a role I've sort of had to find myself in just this year. But in terms of actual design and construction of buildings, the details will make or break a project. And so when you say that, like, because I hear, and I know what you mean by the details. It's all the little things, right? Framing a house, getting it, you know, let's talk about residential because I'm kind of more in tune with that. Framing the house, getting a roof on it, get the windows on, and getting that done.

That happens really fast. Right. Right? But it's even the rough in electrical, rough in plumbing, rough in HVAC. The drywall happens. Now the trim starts and the doors. Now the cabinets. It's like at the very end, that last 10%, those last details.

We didn't know we were going to have the mirror here. Now we've got to rip this out. So all those things take time, take money. So to get those details right in the very beginning of a project, that's why planning out projects is so imperative. Right. To make sure you know where everything is going. Yep.

And to me, it's one of the hardest things to do. Right. You know? And remodels are even more tricky just because you don't know what's going to be behind that drywall when it comes down. Right. So you have to be able to think quickly and problem solve when

those things do come up in the field. Yeah. You've got a plan going in, but then you take that one drywall off, you pop it off, and termites have gotten in there and trashed all of this stuff. And now you've got to rip the whole ceiling out and you've got to redo this. It's a lot that gets into it. We try to think of those as opportunities, though, when they come up. Because if you have to tear that wall out, well, maybe we can think about what window goes in here instead if you're going to be rebuilding that. Yeah, because it doesn't cost much more after that. Right, right, exactly. You know, if you already got it ripped out, you've got to put it back anyway.

Hey, we're going to move some 2 by fours over here and be good. Let's think through what we might be able to use this as an opportunity to achieve. I'm going to have to rephrase my thinking on that because I'm like, you know, I always get frustrated when that stuff happens. So the projects that you're doing with the ADUs and the zoning that Charlottesville has been bringing in to bring in more affordable housing in the city, right, and more units, like more density, right? Tell me, expand on that with what you've been doing. So what we've been doing a lot of lately is feasibility studies for different developers or property owners. My focus is more on apartments and multifamily. So that's mostly what I've been working on is the mixed use or just residential buildings

and sort of giving owners an idea of what they would get if they maxed out their property. So because the new zoning does not have a density cap on most of these different zoning areas, we're able to really look at what are the height restrictions, the number of story restrictions, what can you do by building code with certain materials. So we try to give an idea of what you can achieve with wood construction and then what you could achieve with a non-combustible, like a metal or even going to concrete to get some of those higher stories. But, yeah, just doing a bunch of studies

and seeing what's possible with the density and the codes. I know earlier you said you didn't know all of the neighborhoods in town, right? But you did, you've done the feasibility studies and like as far as how high are we able to go in some of these neighborhoods now because typically let's just say typically the standard r1 right r1 r2 r3 and r4 are all 35 foot uh height requirements 35 feet that's it that's all you go. So you're saying that we can go higher than that now? So with the parcels I have looked at, I think the tallest one was going by stories. So it was eight stories or 10 if you added more affordable units, which is just a massive building. Yeah, 10-story building. That's probably bigger than most buildings here in Charlottesville. I don't know. Do you know of a 10-story building? I don't know of a 10- buildings here in Charlottesville. Yeah. I don't know. Do you know of a 10-story building? I don't know of a 10-story building in Charlottesville.

I don't know what the infamous shell of a building was planned to be out there. That one was pretty high, but I don't know completed what our highest building is. Yeah. Because does that mean they took away the height requirement? You can't be above the Redenda or is that what it is? You can't be a certain height. It was like. I don't know if they've, if further towards UVA, that's still in place, but I know just around the downtown mall, it was not. Okay. So you can go, 10 stories is massive. It's massive. What's the typical cost? Let's, let's say something like this and you can say roundabout cause I know it's, it varies so, so much between site work and what finishes and everything that you can, can, that can go into it.

Right. Um, I mean you can even be like 20, 30 million, um, like cost, like for a 10 story building, right? Let's say how big does the lot have to. Like for a 10 story building, right? Let's say how big does the lot have to be to be a 10 story building? That really depends because I don't think it's restricted by lot size in the city. It would be restricted in lot size based on

whether you can get enough egress stairs, how you get any sort of, if you want parking on the project, where the parking would go, and then how it builds out in relation to the streets it's fronting on. So there's a lot of back-end considerations there. And cost-wise, you know, that's not my strong suit because we don't do construction. I would say, I'm trying to think of the number my partner's been using. I think it's been around $190,000 per unit.

Per unit? So $190,000 per unit. Yeah. And I think $35,000 or $45,000 for garage parking, per parking space. Okay. Of course, there's a lot of fluctuation there. So when I talk to my buddies, they're trying to buy anywhere between...

The sweet spot for them right now is like $150 a unit is what they're trying to buy at. Granted, they're not going to get it here in Charlottesville, but in the south, in the southern Midwest, they're picking up units. Oklahoma, Texas, things like that.

They're picking up for those type of prices. That's just crazy. So what do you see once, you know, people get comfortable with this and the first person, has anybody done it yet? I don't think so. I think that's the key. Who's going to make the first move? Who's going first, right?

Yeah, and they're going to take all the arrows. And then everybody else will come behind it and go, okay, what did you learn? Yep. What do you think that's going to do in regards to the aspect of Charlottesville, change the landscaping of the real estate? Do you think it's a positive impact or a negative impact? Or, you know, it's neither here nor there on the impact, but this is what it's going to do. Yeah, it's really hard to say.

We need affordable housing. We need affordable housing in town. We just, our interns and our new hires just struggle finding places to live here in town. What is affordable housing in town? I don't even know at this point. I'm so far removed from where my apartment was when I graduated UVA. There's nothing available for those prices anymore. I mean, what was that? What kind of prices were you paying there? 900? My first apartment, yeah, 850. Yeah. Now I think for a one-bedroom, I'm seeing like 1,400. But again, I haven't looked recently.

I just know that they're struggling. So in that aspect, it's a good thing. There are no set parking requirements. So that will either drive public transportation to get better or it's going to create a difficult situation before it gets better. Right. Maybe both. Because we just don't seem to have the infrastructure for the type of transportation needs we would have. Right. Getting around downtown is great. But then as soon as you need to go to Walmart, that's a trek.

Right, right. Yeah, because there's no shopping, like necessity shopping. Right, right. I mean, you have a CVS, I think. Or you go down to Fifth Street Extended and go to Wegmans there and buy $30 for some bread. But I see with that, so I see like the units being available as rental units with that.

But I also see the prices going up on housing, with that, you know? I just think, you know, especially for like an ADU unit right outside to the attached of houses. Like, hey, you can have an apartment on your property. You can build it here and make this happen. That's going to increase the price of the house. Just like we value multifamily apartment buildings via their net operating income, right? That's how we value the

building's price. So it's going to turn into that and what we can afford to pay for that, and that's going to subsidize $50,000, $75,000 on the purchase prices. And just when you're selling a piece of land, it's all about the potential for that land. What can you build on that? What is the density you can build on that land? How tall can you go up? How many units can you get on that parcel? And that's what will make it appealing to a developer.

But when you have that in single-family residential, there's a potential for an ADU. Even if it doesn't exist, the land value is going to go up because there is that potential. Yeah, yeah. a potential for an ADU, even if it doesn't exist, the land value is going to go up because there is that potential. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just, it's, it's, it's going to be exciting time to see where, where this all

goes and how, how they do it. I know the city's trying to, to make it affordable. I, I read an article the other day, Charlottesville is in the top three most expensive towns in the state. And it's Northern Virginia. Yeah, I believe it. Northern Virginia. Roanoke actually was in there. Okay. Roanoke had a part in there and then Charlottesville. And so for their average price per house,

um, which was interesting to me as well. It was, it was kind of wild. So those are the top three. Um, and I know Richmond has it, but I always thought it was Northern Virginia, Charlottesville and like the Virginia beach area. Right. That's what I would have thought. Yeah. But, um, but that was Roanoke snuck in there. Congrats Roanoke. Um, they're growing up. They're growing down there. You do jobs down there. They really are growing down there, yeah. So we've done Christiansburg, not in Roanoke itself, but in Christiansburg area. Right.

Yeah, there's a lot of growth down in that area. And that's the Virginia Tech area. I mean, Roanoke has, Roanoke's population is larger than Charlottesville. I think their population is, I think their population is over 100,000 down there. Charlottesville City is 50,000. Charlottesville MSA is 250,000. But it's just interesting with the Charlottesville stuff on what they're going to do with those ADUs.

What do you see when you're designing and doing all this stuff for the buildings, are you looking at sustainability products? How do you guys incorporate that? How do you guys incorporate the eco-friendly, uh, stuff that everybody wants to see in their buildings now, uh, in your design aspects? Uh, like to me, it's like, man, that's just another step to like figure out, right? It's, it seems like there's a lot that goes on with that. There's a lot that goes on with that.

And from the beginning, our firm was founded in 1987. And so the founding partner, Ray Gaines, has always had an idea of taking the easy approach for green. Even if somebody does not want sustainable design, there are things you can do just as simple as designing on a four foot module, because that's a sheet of plywood. You're having less waste. It works out with brick coursing. It works out with plywood. So all your material waste cuts way down and you're building sometimes a larger footprint for the same price as what you would get for a slightly smaller one. So just looking at simple aspects like that. Then my partner who's based in Harrisonburg, Charles Hendricks, he's really well known for building science and looking at the construction of the wall itself. So again, even if people don't want a flashy green product, we're

building a wall that will require less maintenance, that ensures that the air and vapor transfer is what it needs to be to produce a long-living product. Right. In terms of more flashy things, there is, if you go through the HUD process for a 221D4 HUD finance-backed project. There is a major benefit to going with a certified project. So most of our multifamily residential projects are built to Earthcraft standards because it meets their requirements to get this. It's a percentage off the interest rate. It has a very quick payback. So it's an easy sell for our developers. And so that just requires us to take certain things into account, building

location, how close it is to other areas, whether we're able to preserve trees, again, the construction of our wall and making sure the insulation is all in the right place. It's all mostly straightforward stuff. And then you can get the flashy things by adding EV chargers because they're in demand now. And doing the things that people see outwardly as green and sustainable. Has there been much in the technology aspect side of things that change the way or help better? I know there's computer software and CAD's been around forever,

right? But are there any other things that have like really been game changers in the way that you do things? So this is a fun question because yes, there is. No, we don't use it. So this is a fun question because yes, there is. No, we don't use it. So there is a tool called Revit, which you build your 3D model as you're drafting. And then it outputs plans and sections from that Revit model. Okay. The problem is we've set up CAD standards that look like hand drafting. There's a certain element of being able to look at a drawing

and reading the line weights. It reads like art. You can see what's supposed to pop off the page and what's supposed to fade into the background. And we have yet to get output that we consider up to our standards. So we've stuck with CAD, and we do 3D renderings for our ARB reports and such. But yeah, so there's a bunch of technology that's out.

It's just how it's being utilized. Has the products, and my products mean materials, has the materials, the technology and the different materials, how has that changed in being able to build longevity, lasting, cost reduction since you've been in since 06? 06, yeah. There are a lot of material innovations, and it's part of why to be an architect, you have to get a certain amount of continuing education so you can keep up with those material and code changes.

So yeah, I would say that there's a lot of engineered wood products that are more sustainable in the long run that produce a longer-lasting product. There's a lot of developments in terms of noise transfer, which is really important when you're looking at apartment buildings and keeping residents happy. Right. That helps with that. And then a lot of it is about how those materials come together. There's a lot of research into what's the best way to do things that has changed over

the years. So the way we used to do things isn't necessarily the best way to do them now. Right. Education, products and engineering and it all comes together, right? Innovation. Yeah. You know, it's one step, one step and getting better and getting better. Where do you see, as far as trends and future outlooks for you all, and architects in general, where do you see it going? So I think multifamily is definitely going to stay in demand. There's that need for affordable housing everywhere. So that's really an area that I don't really see dying down too much. We are doing a lot of renovation projects right now.

So a lot of people who, due to interest rates or whatever, they're staying in their houses and they need to make that house what they want for their forever home. So we're doing a lot of that. And we kind of discussed it before the show with the interest rates that were so low. And, you know, was it 20, 21, 22, I mean, 2% interest rates, any, anything under four is great. Right. I have a four.

They're not going to want to leave. No. They're not going anywhere. No. Right? Right. Because they're like, I'll just stay here. I'll do an addition on the back of the house.

Right. I'll just build out what I have here because it's going to be cheaper in the long run. Yep. But what we do see in regards with that is there's going to be no inventory. Right now, insurance costs and the price of money has gone up. It went up so quickly. In the cost of materials, everybody's just kind of like, whoa, let's see where everything's going to settle out before we can get a real project budget number,

because prices went from, as a residential builder, $100, you know, 100 a foot to now they're, you know, close to 200 a foot, right? And it's doubled on your end. Yeah. And the multifamily stuff. So nobody's building, really, for affordable housing. You know, they're building, they're still building houses and they're selling them. They're selling for 5, 7, 8, $1.1,000, whatever. I don't see too many people selling $200,000 houses that are coming out of the ground.

No. So there's going to be no inventory for renters because everything's going to get taken up, right? Everything's going to get taken up, right? Everything's going to get sucked up. So we feel that prices are going to kind of start creeping up on the rental side of things. And then what? Your guess is as good as mine. I mean, there's definitely a need for that affordable housing, and I don't know what happens when it gets to that breaking point.

Yeah. Do we just have um a bunch of of families renovating their houses to become multi-generational like what how where does this go that's actually one of my thoughts that i've been thinking i live on a farm out in louisa we have 50 acres plenty of places to put things, right? Yep. Multiple outbuildings that could be converted. And it's like, well, you know? Yeah. Maybe we just convert this out and get in here and design this.

I have a huge barn that would be kick butt, like, have it really done up really nice. It's like 40 by 20 um two stories huge higher than the ceilings here in the studio right yeah and so it's like that would be really cool if we could do it up really nice and make it look yeah that would be really nice and so it's like i don't know it's just one of those thoughts i have in my head. I'm always thinking about new things, different things to do, make it an event, whatever it is. We're doing some multi-generational stuff right now where if you're not going to subdivide the land,

you have to be careful code-wise to make sure that what you're putting in complies. But, I mean, this is basically a second house on their land we're doing so that they have separate spaces, but they still together right so yeah it's and it's funny most america is the only place that does this right most families stick together most families live in the same house right here in america we're like 18 and in much much smaller houses. Much smaller house, right? But they also, those houses are paid for, right? And so they're able to accumulate wealth better. When you have six people working, right, you're bringing it all into one household.

Granted, you're living, but it's a community. Right. And this is some of the things that like changed. Like I've had this thought of it's going to be this 18 you're out the house you're doing your own thing and it's it's changing now because i'm looking at like well i'm just setting him up to be struggling the whole time yeah you know um and he's got to fight through that and he's got to fight like i have all boys i have three boys but um yeah it's just it's just some of those things that i'm thinking about all right how do i how do i how do i set

them up how do i make them better so like getting somebody out to design and right you know build we've done a number of tiny homes too for people to put on their land and yeah sort of get that separate space there but yeah, yeah, it's... I mean, it's all pretty cool. It's all pretty cool. Professional development in this aspect, you said you had to do continuing ed, right? So I guess it's kind of like everybody's continuing education sort of stuff.

What do they teach you in those classes, and what are they looking out for? So you get a lot of freedom to decide what your continuing education is going to be because all architects have sort of their specialty. And so you want to tailor the classes you're taking to your specialty. But to be a licensed architect, you have to maintain, I want to say it's 26 credits a year, and then a certain number of them have to meet a health safety welfare aspect. The American Institute of Architects certifies these classes and will designate whether it's health safety welfare related.

But those classes focus on building science and structures and anything that could affect long-term health and safety of the occupants. I'll be doing one next week, though, here in town on the 2021 code changes. So Virginia operates on a three-year code cycle. We're usually about three years behind the current year is the code they're adopting. And so there's a lot of interesting changes with the 2021 code, but most of them impact the accessibility codes because the ANSI 117.1, everybody thinks ADA,

but ANSI 117 is the code that's in the actual building code. That's the one that's referenced. That hasn't been changed since 2009. The 2021 building codes reference the 2017 NC-117. So there's a bunch of changes coming from that. So, yeah, it'll be interesting to start implementing those. Yeah, definitely. Well, how do people get in touch with you and so they can work with you? Yeah.

What's the best way? So you can reach me anyway, really. We just moved our offices in Charlottesville. We were up on Pantops. We just moved to the corner of 9 1⁄2 and High Street. So there's a blue building that used to be Atlantic Bay Mortgage. And we just got our sign up there,

so you'll see us if you go down High Street. But our switch over to our VOIP phones is not going as smoothly as we'd like. So you can reach out. Our website is thegainsgroup.com. So that's T-H-E-G-A-I-N-E-S-G-R-O-U-P. We have a Facebook page. We have an Instagram page. We're pretty responsive for any way you message us. And you can name my name or it'll go straight through to one of my partners who will reach out and get a meeting set up. Typically we'll do a first meeting on Zoom. Sometimes we will schedule a site visit if it's sort of imperative we see the site when we're discussing the project. But a lot of times we can discuss vaguely and then set up a follow-up on site. Right. So that's how you start out, do a Zoom call. What are you kind of looking to do? Let's get a scope of work that you're interested in. Let's see if we're the right fit for you guys. Absolutely. And then if so, we can take this

progression a little bit further. We go through through we can give out scope of works and you know nail down what what you guys need yep yep and you guys aren't a contract build right you are just a contract just design just design yep but we do all sorts of designs so we do small like front porch renovations we've done historical renovations um We've done just kitchen renovations, small projects, all the way up to over 100,000 square foot warehouse industrial buildings. We don't do much public work. We have done small government buildings, but we've done private schools, churches, that sort of thing.

Yeah. Okay. So a little bit of everything. Yeah, definitely. Sounds like it. It sounds like you know what you're talking about. You've done a lot within the Charlottesville and surrounding areas. You know the codes.

You know what they're looking for. Because not only do you have to deal with the codes of, you know, the building codes, the Virginia building code, you also have to deal with what is Albemarle County and what does Charlottesville City require. Because they have some little specific nuances as well. Yep. Yep, yep. And every jurisdiction is just a little bit different. So we definitely have to make sure. And even simple things such as definitions.

Some jurisdictions define the height of a building as the top of the ridge. Some jurisdictions define the height of the building as the average between the ridge and the top of the fascia. Yeah. So you have to be really careful anytime you're doing work in a different area. Yeah. Yeah. Well, cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it.

I've learned a lot. Yeah, absolutely. This is fun. It's very neat. Again, go online. You can find them there, thegainsgroup.com. You can find her on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, whatever other social medias are out there. But reach out.

Great people. And you'll get back to them and go from there. Yeah, absolutely. Guys, thanks for And you'll, you'll get back to them and go from there again. Absolutely guys. Thanks for showing up to the show today. We try to bring people who are doing great things within the community, uh, within the surrounding areas and provide insight to you all for that and, um, show you how good people are, like how, what, what people are doing great things, um, how you get there, how they got there, the story, because I think that has a lot to do with it as far as, oh, well, that person did

X, Y, Z. I'd like to do that. I'd like to follow in those footsteps. So reach out, and until next week, have a good one. Thank you.