The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - UVA Health: Fraud Billing & Secret Audio Recordings; Is UVA Health Putting Profit Over Patients?

Episode Date: October 17, 2024

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Good Thursday afternoon, guys. I'm Jerry Miller. Thank you kindly for joining us on the I Love Seville Show. It's great to be with you on a chilly Thursday afternoon in downtown Charlottesville. A lot to cover. I should start the program. We're less than two miles from UVA Health, a hospital system that cannot stay out of the news. Today's coverage in the Daily Progress, fantastic coverage from the Daily Progress. The basis of the coverage, secret audio recordings. We have an all-hands-on-deck meeting with surgeons, folks at the top of the medical field. And these secret audio recordings allege surgeons are being strong-armed by C-suite UVA Health to fraudulently bill their patients by utilizing tomfoolery as it applies to medical coding.

Smoke and mirrors. Is it even smoke and mirrors? Is it just, I mean, it's straight up fraud. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's tough. I think with, it's so nuanced that they expect the patient and the paying public not to understand what's happening. It also sounds like some of the chiefs don't understand what's happening either.

Part of the recording is someone saying, we have people here who know nothing about billing and coding, making very important decisions about billing and coding that shouldn't be in their hands. And then you have a chief come back and say, they need to educate you about how to document appropriately. And another surgeon responds with, no, that's not it. We don't need to be taught how to document appropriately and another surgeon responds with no that's not it

we don't need to be taught how to document a particular code you guys know i think that's a personal decision and obviously goes on to explain in the article what the what the coding is and and how it's how it's pushed by administrators who may not, I think, fully understand what it all means. And they're just, it's profits over people. Profits over patience. Yeah. Profits over patience. This story is gaining more momentum. momentum and as the story stays longer in the news cycle the content in the news cycle is more damning

with each content piece released does that uh they're literally they're literally in today's progress the basis was secret audio recordings from a year ago, given to a newspaper writer to write a story. The only issue I have, I've said this once, I'll say it again. I was going to ask about that. The anonymity request of those providing the basis for the content. If you're on the other side, you've devalued their efforts by pointing to the ask for anonymity. But you do understand it, though, don't you? If these whistleblowers, these are whistleblowers now, right?

I think we can say that. If the anonymous whistleblowers go on the record, instead of off the record, they are on the record, if their superiors, if C-suite UVA terminates them or does anything that is perceived as lacking integrity or equity or honesty to the whistleblowers. You'll say there's backlash. More than backlash, even more case of a lawsuit. The problem with that is that without the initial 128 people who, as you've said,

have hid their identities, kept their identities secret. The 128 say it's more than 128. Yeah, but if that initial 128 had not done something, even in hiding their names, we might not be at a point where somebody getting fired would get pushback, would even make the news. I get your point.

You're saying if they had not have done this anonymously, they would have been terminated already and we would have had no story. I'm saying in the last year, if people had individually come forward, they may have been fired, they may have been sidelined, had their

credentials lowered, whatever you want to call it. Oh, I bet you they would have been terminated. That's a fair point, Judah. And there may have been small stories here and there about them, but we wouldn't have what we've got now, which is enough people, enough critical mass

for this to actually make people turn their heads. Ginny Hu, thank you for retweeting the program. We love you, Ginny Hu. I'll push back on that. This is no longer the early stage innings of the baseball game. You're saying that they should come forward and, and we're in the fifth or sixth inning here. I understand what you're saying,

but in today's daily progress, we're, we're taking all of this a bit abstractly. There are 128 people, whether they're surgeons, techs, whatever, but they're not names, obviously. But they have lives, and some of them may not be able to afford looking for a job right now i'm not saying i'm not trying to defend them collectively but individually these people if they go on record

now will not face backlash they will not face backlash because if they receive backlash, it's more merit to their efforts. It's more ammunition. It's more gas for the media fire. Could be. And this is an effing lawsuit waiting to happen here. You're just adding more foundation to the lawsuit. The progress, the story today, may be the most damning one yet.

Of all the content that's been out, the story released six hours ago, the headline, UVA Surgeons Detail Upcoding. They say it allowed health systems to fraudulently bill patients. God, upcoding and upzoning. Good Lord. All these upwards.

You guys don't bill enough and there's clear evidence that you could be billing more. C-suite telling the surgeons what Judah just said. Say it again. You guys don't bill enough and there's clear evidence that you could be billing more. Then

they push back on that statement from C-suite saying, no, we're billing more than we feel actually comfortable billing. There is a secret recording where surgeons are saying, we are billing more than we actually think is fair to bill. And then the pushback on that is, bill more, this other department is 2x what you were doing from a billing standpoint. And we said, for us to bill more would be department as 2x what you were doing from a billing standpoint. And we said for us to bill more would be fraud because we're already billing more than we think we should. Jesus, dude, this is...

Mm-hmm. How is this any different? How is this any different that someone on the corner of Market and Main, Market and Fourth, being shaken down by an armed gunman for the money that they have on their person?

Explain to me how it's any different. You have a vulnerable person that is in a hospital. Their life may be on the line and is so desperate for help. I mean, oftentimes you wouldn't have a choice. I mean, if you're... You have no choice.

You have no choice but to give the money to the armed gunman that says, give me your money or I'm going to do something to you. You give them the money because you have no choice. You're at a hospital. Your life is on the line. This person is the person that's in charge for saving you, for providing surgery on you, and says, this is the bill, paid or no surgery? Well, oftentimes you really, really don't have a choice because say you had a heart attack or some other issue that landed you in an ambulance, unconscious. You get taken to the hospital. The hospital is going to do the work. Even better example from Judah Wickauer. And you get a bill

when it's done. Even better example by Judah Wickauer. It's not that you didn't want the service. Obviously, we expect the hospitals to take care of people. But

literally at what cost? The surgeons are telling C-suite UVA that we don't want to continue to use these billing practices, these coding practices, because we know we could go to jail for these billing and coding practices that are unethical. And still, the C-suite says, use the billing and coding practices we are telling you to use. This is all documented in a secret audio recording done in a meeting, then provided to the newspaper. This is James Bond stuff. More like Woodward and... Woodward and Bernstein? You want to go Woodward and Bernstein in the Washington Post?

That's fine. We can do that. A reference to number one in the family, Deep Throat. You have a brown rain trench coat you're meeting in a parking garage behind a pillar in a dark nook and cranny that is outside of a camera's

lens Woodward and Bernstein wearing a hat maybe press a little sign coming out of the hat pen and paper quickly scribbling on a notepad out of the hat, pen and paper quickly scribbling on a notepad held in the palm of their hand.

Sprinting to their typewriter at the post to publish an exclusive that would rock the world. I'll give you that. Yeah. I mean, what is next in this saga? If they have these secret audio recordings

and these secret audio recordings were not released immediately, are we to think that they are slow releasing their proof of performance? You're saying there may be more? Why wouldn't this be released on day one, secret audio recordings from over a year ago,

with the initial letter signed by the 128 calling fraudulent billing into play? Why wouldn't they say, here's the proof of performance of the fraudulent billing they insisted that we do from day one? They are slow releasing, almost like a governor on a golf cart that throttles your speed. I'd say it's more like a trap. Oh, I'm listening to learn from you. How so? More like a trap or

like bait. Speaking of fishing, my dad loves fishing and did a lot over in the Outer Banks. And you put a little bait on the line, wait until you get a nibble, and the nibble might not be enough. So you wait and you put a little more out there and you know as as the uh as the the leadership of uva denies what's going on you get a little bit more and they deny a little bit more and now they've got a uh now they're supposedly doing a an audit um do we think they're going to release that? No, they already said they're not going to release it. The law firm is not, UVA is not

going to release the law firm's investigation report. Exactly. But what else are they going to do? They've got to say that they're doing an investigation. Otherwise, If a tree falls in the woods and no one's around to hear it, does the tree actually fall? If an investigation is done and no one's around to hear it, does the tree actually fall?

If an investigation is done and no one sees the investigative report, did the investigation actually happen? They had to say they were investigating. John Blair offering comments. Let's get his photo on screen. He's been all over this from day one. John Blair, when this story initially broke, called this potentially the most significant story in UVA history. He says, Jerry and Judah, I will go back to a point I have made earlier. Is the anonymity due to fear of their own prosecution liability? Could be. He says this, and then you jump in.

If you know that fraud is occurring and you do not do anything, what is your level of culpability? He also says, I don't practice health care law, but if a physician knows that fraudulent billing is occurring and they do not do anything, where does the responsibility, culpability lie? Yeah. That's a great question. He says, I have to wonder if there are potential immunity negotiations going on and that might affect the decision to remain anonymous. Fantastic points. You wanted to offer something there.

I mean, he's right. And I believe it's mentioned in the article that what the surgeons, what the physicians are facing when they build these codes, whether one or the other, is their call. And they would be the ones charged rather than the hospital, I believe. They say that in the article today. This is from Kevin Higgins, his photo on screen. Look into the provider-based billing with verified partially financially and indigent patients.

It's a bigger story. And they're doing this to the uninsured as well. Think about that. He says Medicare and Medicaid showing up soon, roughly 50% of their payers. That gets pulled and it's over with. Tom Powell, can you say cover up? Ladies and gentlemen, this is a... Kevin Yancey watching the program.

You have someone who spent 25 years doing the billing. Ask Kevin Higgins. Kevin Yancey... Kevin Higgins, I didn't know that about you. Kevin Yancey is saying we should have... Get Kevin Higgins on I didn't know that about you. Kevin Yancey is saying we should get Kevin Higgins on to talk about this. He spent 25 years doing the billing. You have an insider that's no longer employed there in Kevin Higgins. Ask him.

I didn't know that about you, Mayor of Greenwood, Kevin Higgins. You're welcome on the program anytime you want, sir. Open-ended questions. You can just teach us what's going on. Kevin Higgins says, this is outrageous, and if this is happening, people will go to jail. It's surgeons because that's high money with both a professional and hospital bill.

I wonder how they are billing grants. This involves medical documentation, coding, charge entry, and billing. Each department at UVA, there are 23, has coding staff. If anyone is asking that staff to code incorrectly, it's game set and match people. Vendors are included too. Tom Powell says everyone is trying to cover their ASS right now. No doubt. Kevin Higgins, come on the program, please. We can

do it over Skype or in person. You got 25 years of medical billing experience? Help us understand what's happening here. Logan Wells Claylow watching the broadcast. Got the paper watching us and a TV station watching us. The difference is...

Thank you, Kevin Yancey. I did not know that. Judah Wickauer, jump in. The difference is pretty sickening uh look at this uh here are the here are the two or at least two of the codes in uh in question 99232 comes with a price tag of 200 and roughly 1.39 rvus which are relative value units, and the hospital wants more RVUs because that makes them more money. So the one code comes with a price tag of $200 and 1.4 RVUs,

while the code that they're being told to use costs $1,060 and 4.5 RVUs. So imagine your price tag. Is that 5X, roughly? Imagine your price tag is just one part of your price tag is five times what it could have been because a physician is being pushed to use a particular code. Explain how this is any different than a guy with a gun on the corner of Market and 4th Street

demanding all your money. Explain how it's any different. It's a little different. How is it different? You're in a car accident. You're taken to the hospital in an ambulance. You're put on a surgery table. You're out a car accident. You're taken to the hospital in an ambulance. You're put on a surgery table. You're out of no consciousness,

and they perform surgery on you to save your life. John Blair on LinkedIn. Kevin Higgins' points are 100% why I believe this could be the biggest story in UVA history. People might literally go to jail for this. Please have Kevin Higgins on the show. It would be great to hear his perspective. Kevin, please come on the program.

Please. Viewers and listeners, ask the mayor of Greenwood, Kevin Higgins, to come on the program nicely, and maybe he will do it. Judah, can you ask him nicely? Kevin, we would love to have you on the show. 25 years at UVA. He says, look into provider-based billing with verified partially financially indigent patients.

This is a massive story. Indigent? Yeah. with verified partially financially indigent patients. This is a massive story. Indigent? Yeah. Oh, my God. F-ing crazy. And the true travesty, one of the many true travesties would be if that investigation report by the third party law firm is not released. Because that reeks of what? Reeks of trying to cover something up. Cover up. Bingo.

As Tom Powell, the founder of the toy lift, just said. You better, folks, read the article in The Progress, the headline, UVA Surgeons Detail Upcoding They Say Aloud Health System to Fraudulently bill patients. It's pop the popcorn type of rating. Secret audio recordings, 007 style. Unbelievable. What is the next headline, Judah Wittkower?

Tom Powell says we're going to be talking about this for years. I wonder how long this has been going on for. I wonder how many people have been impacted by this. Well, they make... To the tune of how many millions of dollars, if not hundreds of millions. I don't know if we can ever know how many people have been impacted by it, but they do make some mention of how long this has been going on.

One of the things is that a lot of people, or some people have spoken up about leaving since what's his name? Craig Kent. From Ohio State. And the fact that they just couldn't do it anymore. So I think we have some idea of how long it's been going on. Sadly,

it may have been going on longer and just not at the immensity. Can you under a... This should be an element that should not be overlooked. What person, what type of person orders others in medicine to exploit dying people through fraudulent billing and medical chart changing? Do you have a feeling of utter invincibility? Are you presumptuous? I am taking off the table

ignorance and being a moron. Because I don't think ignorance and being a moron applies to someone who makes it to the C-suite of a billion-dollar-plus industry. Is it invincibility? Is it a sociopath? No, I think it's... Is it just sheer

greed? First and foremost, I think it's lack of empathy. Second, I think it's people in administration don't deal with patients the same way physicians do, and so they're looking at numbers. You know, this is not, you know, Jane or Jonathan or, you know, somebody that they know.

These are just people that have Medicaid and Medicare and health insurance. And I don't think there's really much thought for the actual people behind those accounts. And so it just becomes, you know, look. Another person on a balance sheet. Yeah, our hospital needs to make money. There's a telling line in here saying the only two ways to increase RVUs is to get more patients or bill more on the patients we already have. Those are really the only two options,

and we can't make more injured patients come. So you charge more. I think it's just an abstraction of humanity. And you say, look, the hospital needs to want to make more money. This is Tom Cruise and John Grisham's The Firm, where he goes to the Cayman Islands to go into Gene Hackman's beach house to get the files that show the fraudulent billing.

And how it becomes a significant conspiracy. The fraudulent billing with postage, the Postal Service utilized to mail those bills all over the country and the world got the FBI involved. Were these bills sent outside of states? Outside of Virginia?

Outside of the United States? Good question. This is an effing movie. This is an effing movie. What is an effing movie. What was the Russell Crowe? Was it Russell Crowe who's the whistleblower with the tobacco industry?

Was that Russell? Which movie? The Insider. Was that him? It could be. The big tobacco whistleblower? The Insider? Are we going to see 15 years from now on Max or Prime or Netflix

the UVA health insider the whistleblower Jesus Jesus. Yancey highlights that there's people that are still paying hospital bills that are retired now from the work they had done on themselves in the 80s.

Scott Thorpe said, Bingo, Judah, and given you some props. Bingo about what? Kevin Yancey sharing very straightforward personal experience. Ready for this? Jerry, this is personal experience, he writes. We lost our first child.

We literally spent six hours in the labor and delivery room. Two weeks later, we got our bill. They charged our insurance for two days in a private room. Carly Wagner responding to Kevin Yancey, I'm so very sorry for your loss. That is awful. I'm sorry for your loss as well, Kevin Yancey. I did not know that.

We do this talk show, Judah and I, from a studio on Market Street. And we have all these awesome people offering commentary and thoughts and sharing their ideas and their concerns or pushing back on what Judah and I say. A lot of ways we haven't met many of any of you, but we feel like we know you. And when someone like Kevin Yancey shares a story about he and his wife losing their first child

and then getting a bill from UVA that was fraud, my heart breaks for him. And that's just what happened. Kevin Higgins said he's willing to come on the program. Judah Wickauer, if you could send him a DM after this program is over and see if we can coordinate an interview with Kevin Higgins who spent 25 years in medical billing

at the University of Virginia Health System. Deep throat jumping in. I might have missed this because I joined late, but upcoding is not a joke. Health systems have gotten tagged with huge fines for upcoding on Medicare. And if the docs have receipts, they could do a quid tam suit under the False Claims Act. The bills don't need to go out of state because they deal with Medicare. This is a federal law issue.

There you go. Learning on the fly right now from you guys. This is effing crazy. This is effing crazy. This is a movie script. And the fact that... This is a movie script right here. And the fact that...

This is a movie script right here. And the fact that we know that this information has been presented to higher-ups in the university, and when confronted with it, they said, we didn't know about this. Kevin Yancey says the worst part, we had to fight tooth and nail with the billing department

for the fraudulent billing they sent us. Yeah. It's a movie script. And before it becomes a movie script, you know what happens? People go down. Before people get arrested and go to jail, you know what happens? What's that? Washington Post and New York Times.

NBC News, CBS News, national, not local. Board of Visitors respond and react. under whose watch did this happen? And what you've got to be really careful on now is the letters you write and who you go to bat for. Ryan's already gone to bat for Kent and the dean of the medical school in a letter that he signed. Next headline with the 110 marker.

What do we got? We've got Alco soups want state to conduct rent control study. I'm going to read Roger voice and a's's commentary that he shared on the I Love Seville Network on rent control. Alamaro County did the people's business yesterday, the board of supervisors, a meeting. Mike's a housing, equity housing attorney. He fights for fair housing as an attorney, Mike Pruitt.

He is, his district, Cavalier Crossing, the apartments, purchased by a Northern Virginia holding company, massive company. This Northern

Virginia company did do a single thing wrong. We may have the argument, is it lacking empathy? We may have the argument, is it profits over tenants. But they bought an apartment building that was known in real estate circles to be distressed and on the market to the point where the owners, the previous owners of Cavalier Crossing had their hat in hand and were knocking on doors of big-time real estate heavy hitters asking if you want to buy this from us.

Cavalier Crossing, a failed project in a lot of ways, intended to be student housing, where you rented individual rooms for $560 a month instead of suites in totality for $1,500 or $2,000 or $2,200 a month. The business model was if we rent individual rooms for $560 a month, we can make more than if we rent the suite for $1,500 or $2,000 a month. And we have less risk because we have more renters as opposed to one tenant on the suite, there's three tenants on the suite,

we're hedging. This is where they failed and they made a mistake. Despite being offered free transportation from Cavalier Crossing to grounds and many other places, UVA students did not want to live that far from

entertainment. The bars, the frats, the sororities, from sports, I guess from their classes. You see where my priorities are. From where they go to college, classes. It's about books and learning. So they had to pivot the model. And when they pivoted the model, they went away from mommy and daddy's credit cards and UVA students that were wealthy, expensive to go here,

to instead renting to those that are on the financial margin in Charlottesville, now Morrill County. Those that were, in a lot of ways, a step above homelessness. And because the model failed to target mommy and daddy's credit cards and UVA students and instead found someone on the financial margin,

they could not continue to justify or sustain the model. So the previous owners went hat in hand and they finally found a buyer, Northern Virginia Firm. They sold a piece of a Norfolk, Virginia apartment building and did a 1031 exchange to buy this one. And to drive return on investment because they're an effing business. They want to drive ROI.

They said, we're not going to renew the rents. They're well below market. We're going to put lipstick on the pig and improve the amenities. And then we're going to come back and 3 and 4X rent. And that remodeling is going to lead to improved rent rolls. And that's exactly what happened. And now, Albemarle County Supervisor Mike Pruitt, this is his

district, the Scottsville district, a vast district that includes the town of Scottsville and its outskirts, a vast district. That includes the 950 homes. And the gated community of Glenmore. A vast district. That includes Mill Creek. And much of 5th Street extended. Including the old Lynchburg Road. Cavalier Crossing.

Located apartments. He says. The fair housing attorney. This is bullshit. Excuse my language sorry sweetheart we need rent control and we need to lobby the general assembly to afford us the authority and the autonomy to offer moniker branding speak rent stabilization reality speak rent control. Neil Williamson figures this out by reading.

Reading is how Neil figured this out. Documents provided by Albemarle County, by going to meetings when no one else does. That's why you should support the Free Enterprise Forum. I hope Neil's watching right now. And he does a blog post on it on the Free Enterprise

Forum. We're the first to see it. We see it on the I Love Seville show. We see it before it gets in NBC29. We see it before it gets in CBS19, before it gets in NBC 29. We see it before it gets in CBS 19, before it gets in the Daily Progress, anywhere else.

And on the I Love Seville show, we say, Jesus, look at what Neil's writing. This is rent control. This is sketchy as all get out. Rent control ain't good. I do an outline last night on why rent control is not good. I say, number one, it's a terrible idea because it'll reduce the number of rental properties available.

Number two, it will encourage developers to halt new rental housing production. Number three, it will drive a decline in rental housing quality. Number four, it will significantly influence increased rents in neighboring not rent-controlled jurisdictions. Number five, it's going to limit tenant mobility and create neighborhoods of poverty. Those five reasons are about as obvious as we need oxygen to live as human beings.

Now it's everywhere. And in yesterday's meeting, the Board of Supervisors, they pumped the brakes a little bit and they say, oh my goodness, the taxpayers and the people and the constituents, they ain't happy about this.

We want the state, the Commonwealth, to do a study on the upside and downside of rent control. And then we want that study delivered to us. Pruitt, in yesterday's meeting, tried to push the tempo with rent control. Pruitt got resistance from the others. Someone made a comment on the I Love Seville network today.

Shouldn't we have known this as part of the platform they ran upon before getting into office? Roger Voisinet makes this comment on the I Love Seville Network. How can rent control work without tax control, insurance control, tenant damage control, vacancy control, depreciation control, not to mention, vacancy control, depreciation control, not to mention utility and inflation control. You're going to put a limit on the

rents, but you ain't going to have a limit at the same time on the taxes, the insurance, the damage done from the tenants, the vacancy, the depreciation, the utility, and the overall inflation of Charlottesville, Alamation, the utility, and the overall inflation of Charlottesville, Alamaro, the commonwealth, and the country as a whole? Sandra McDaniel makes this point. It's a real good one. She's a real estate investor. She says this,

I invest in options, stocks, and real estate, and I own two homes in Alamaro County. Frankly, I want the county government to keep their hands off of my personal property. I should be able to do with my property what I want. That's a simple answer. She also says to get a bit more nuanced, the S&P is 10 to 12% return per year. If real estate is kept at 5 to 6% cap, what is the point of even getting into real estate? And she says, the last point I'd like to make is that there are places in Charlottesville that have rent control. I will not name them, she says, but they're easy to look up and find.

Go look at those properties. Tell me, would you want to live in those properties? I sure would not. What I am beyond frustrated with, and I'm obviously passionate about this, I'm passionate about this for the following reasons. Are you ready for this? I'm passionate about this for the following reasons. Because government overstep and overreach

in almost every circumstance backfires and implodes on us as taxpayers yeah i'm passionate and fired up about this because if you cap rents at a certain percent it's only those that are on the financial margin that are going to suffer. The wealthy always find a way to stay wealthy. They will just transition or pivot or innovate into a different class of asset. Diversify to begin with

oh you want to cap my rentals at a certain percentage guess what judah they're not gonna be rentals anymore yeah they won't be rentals i'll just sell them or just hold on to them i won't rent them maybe Maybe I'll make them office space. Maybe I'll make them Airbnbs. They're not enforcing the Airbnbs. People are going to be quick to say this, Jerry, you make your living as someone that holds real estate and rents it. That's why you got beef with this.

I don't have beef with it for that. My reason I have beef with it is because of the government overreach and overstep and the precedent of overstep and overreach imploding and causing collateral damage and more harm than good. Yeah. And you need to understand who is leading the charge here.

Anything you want to add to that? I don't think there's much that I can add we've got a great audience and some great commentary coming from them and you put it far more succinctly than I could

I do look at the empathy side of things, but I know that government overreach is rarely the correct path forward. And as you said, does more harm than good. SHB, Sarah Hill Buchenski, an associate broker, just made the transition to Ness. Congratulations, SHB. Is it stupidity or arrogance to think that you can implement rent control and have it turn out better than its historical track record? Yeah. Well said. Carly Wagner, props to her, C-WAGS, she says this.

I'm not sure upcoding is limited to UVA, though. I went to the Prophet Road Urgent Care, Sentara, with suspected broken wrist for my daughter. They took off the ACE bandage I put on and put another ACE bandage on. They did an x-ray, confirmed broken wrists. They referred me to an orthopedic. The provider charged me $6,300 for outpatient orthopedic surgery. X-ray was separate bill for like $30, then another $1, 1200 facility bill. Meanwhile, the orthopedic that actually treated her did two casts and followup x-rays only build us 800. No surgery was done. And another example, my daughter split her chin open,

took her to profit road. They put two butterfly band-aids on the chin, no stitches and charges $3,200 for facial plastic surgery. Oh my goodness. It's terrifying. How is that any different than a man with a gun on the corner of Market Street

and 4th putting the gun to your temple and saying, give me all your money? I still think it's a little bit different. How? How is it different? Because you have avenues. You have recourse to... What is your recourse there?

You can push back. You can talk to your... UVA Health will take your house if you don't pay your bills. Yeah, but it's not a next week kind of thing. I'm just saying. I think I'd rather go toe-to-toe with the guy on 4th and Market than a $1 billion plus health system

that will take your house and all your assets. SHB. Yes, it's a microcosm of the medical billing health insurance industry every doctor and medical director looks to optimize coding for greater insurance payment it's why no hospital or doctor's office can tell you what something costs it depends on what your insurance will pay now there's obviously a line between fraud coding and optimized coding. And if you're billing an insurance company, not an individual, then it seems less personal. Yeah. 100%. Vanessa Parkhill, yes, Jerry.

Government interference in the market is not a great solution. Tom Powell, remember government is always the problem. I'm not going to argue with that. Next topic at the 123 marker. Before I get to that, I'll get to Deep Throat. I think Cav Crossing has another lesson for us. Cavalier Crossing may be suffered because of the new student housing that opened in the last decade, but Cav Crossing also shows that it is not so easy to repurpose

old student housing to family housing. So while I think it's directionally helpful for UVA to house second years on grounds, it is not clear there is an easy path to reuse of the apartments they are vacating as family housing. And if it's not clear, it will be affordable, because what you can charge people who need cheap housing is not enough to maintain a housing project. The next topic is one that no parent wants to hear, and it's called school rezoning or redistricting, reclassifying. Basically, it's the potential to move your kid away from her or his friends into

another school to alleviate infrastructure or overcrowding concerns. And Charlottesville City is now considering rezoning elementary schools to alleviate infrastructure concerns, most notably overcrowding. You can find this story on a number of places. I encourage you to read it on the charlottesvilleschools.org website. I'll give you the URL, charlottesvilleschools.org. I'll give you the headline so you can Google it. Judah, you want to Google it? Here's the headline. Computer's frozen.

Oh. Never good. charlottesvilleschools.org. Ah, here it goes. School zoning conversations to begin. Google that. School zoning conversations to begin in Charlottesville City Schools.

Here are our first few paragraphs. As our schools see continued growth and enrollment, we're starting a community conversation about possible elementary rezoning. This summer, the school division released a request for proposals for a consultant on the issue of elementary school rezoning as described in the strategic plan. Since this would be the first comprehensive discussion

about rezoning in our community since Jackson-Vaya was built, it will be especially helpful to have outside expertise. We have hired a firm to assist us and rezoning is a likely recommendation. Following community presentations and engagement this fall, the board will vote on recommendations in February 2025. That's like right around the corner. Parents, you are being warned about this now this is february 2025 with likely implementation in august 2026 which would coincide with the return of fifth graders to elementary schools rezoning would enable the the division to avoid overcrowding issues

or the need to install learning cottages at some elementary schools. This rezoning work is triggered by the net additional units scheduled for completion at South 1st Street during the 2024-25 school year, and other affordable housing work already in progress. We also anticipate that Charlottesville's recently adopted upzoning changes, as well as UVA's plan to require all second-year students to live on grounds, thereby freeing up housing stock for families, will lead to increase in the K-12 student population. This is what I find odd with this. That's them. You should read the article on the Charlottesville Schools website.

This is what I find odd. We often cite Weldon Cooper on this show. Weldon Cooper has said public school enrollment locally will drop. They're basing it on the cost of living here. And because it's so expensive to live here, the class of folks that are living in Charlottesville and Alamaro County. Neil Williamson tagged me in a tweet about this as well. I'm going to get to Neil's tweet in a matter of moments. This is what Neil tagged me in 22 hours ago from the Alamaro County Board of Supervisors meeting that he was at in covering.

Love you, Neil Williamson. I'd give you a flying chest bump and I'd pour you some scotch right now. He says, by 2030, one in five citizens in Virginia will be 65 plus. Jerry Miller now, more 65 plus than the category 18 to 25. Now, if I know Neil, the reason he tagged me in that tweet was the reference I made a handful of weeks ago about grocery stores and all the people that were championing grocery stores being 55 and older.

And the fact that they're 55 and older and championing grocery stores, that's the customer of yesteryear, not the customer of tomorrow. That's championing the grocery store. I would think that's why Neil tagged me in. But I'm going to use that tag to make the point I'm going to make. Charlottesville metro area HUD family household income, $124,200. That ain't cheap.

Second most expensive in the Commonwealth. The folks that are moving to Charlottesville and Alamaro County are folks that have money. The folks that have money that are moving to Charlottesville and Alamaro County are either the empty nesters, the boomers that sold their house and are moving here for retirement with their dollar dollar bills, y'all. Or they're wealthy that are choosing to position their kids in... UVA. Private schools. Bear, stick with me.

Private schools. And that's why private school enrollment is going up everywhere. That's why you see the private schools in central Virginia lobbying their local jurisdictions to build more buildings and more infrastructure to handle more enrollment demand. Weldon Cooper, oh, Deep Throat is sharing stuff with us. Weldon Cooper has said that the public school enrollment numbers are going to drop, not increase. Here you've got Charlottesville City Schools on the Charlottesville Schools website saying that the public school enrollment numbers are going to uptick, and they're basing that uptick on the fact that second years at UVA are going to be required

to live on grounds as opposed to off grounds, which will open up housing stock for families to live in. They're also basing it on the new zoning ordinance, and the new zoning ordinance increasing the population because there's more available density. I'm going to ask you, the viewer and listener, this very direct question. Do we really think the NZO and having UVA students on grounds for second year, a requirement, is going to uptick the Charlottesville, Virginia population? I do not. I do not. I'm going to ask you this question. If you're a family with little kids, would you want to rent houses on 14th Street

next to the third and fourth years that are partying until three in the morning? Probably not. Probably not. And I want someone nine and a half months into the new zoning ordinance to show me how the new zoning ordinance is actually translated to anything of true merit looks like to me all it's translating into is nine unit and under production that can be rent for top dollar to capture the expensive consumer, the expensive demo that's moving here.

Not to mention boutique hotels. You know what's insane? That condo that I have, the first one I bought, the Ville's at Southern Ridge that used to be the ghetto, country green apartments, that three bedroom be the ghetto, country green apartments, that three-bedroom, two-bath, $2,400 a month in rent. And it's below market.

And it's renting all day, every day, and twice on Sunday. $2,400 a month rent. That condo, I'm going to my notes on my iPhone, started in 2014 when we moved from there to Redfields, from Redfields to Glenmore, from Glenmore to Ivy, in 2014 when I first rented it for $1,000 a month. From 2014, $1,000 a month, to 2024, $2,400 a month.

And it's under market. It's below market to maintain occupancy. The other ones that are similar, ground level, mine's second level, ground level ones, $2,500, $2,600 a month. Read what's happening

on the Charlottesville school website on rezoning, redistricting. And I'm shocked that they called it rezoning. You thought they would give it a different name? It should have been modicored and branded way better than rezoning. They're calling it rezoning

as if they're shuffling children like cattle. Alright, it's 1.34. Last topic on the show. Is it football and basketball? Something like that. UVA's got Clemson on the docket. High noon

kickoff Saturday. Clemson Tigers are 21.5 point favorites. 21.5. I want you to look at the schedule and show me right now where you think the next wins are going to come from. What? Maybe North Carolina a week from Saturday? Where else is a win going to come from for UVA to get bowl eligible? Where on the schedule? And then the last topic on the talk show, the ACC preseason rankings are out. What was UVA on there?

Were they fifth? Fifth. Virginia basketball Tony Bennett's boys picked fifth in the preseason in the Atlantic Coast Conference. They don't have a single player on the preseason rookie or first and second team.

And a single player picked for all conference awards. Not a single one. As a team, they're picked fifth. That's the Thursday edition of the I Love Seville show. Judah Wickauer was on point today. I was so-so. Thank you kindly for joining us. So long long everybody. Thank you.