The I Love CVille Show With Jerry Miller! - What's Future Of Violet Crown Movie Theater?; Violet Crown Operators Don't Own Real Estate

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

The I Love CVille Show headlines: What’s Future Of Violet Crown Movie Theater? Violet Crown Operators Don’t Own Real Estate 4 Parties Will Determine Violet Crown Outcome Of The 4 Parties, Who Has Most/Least Leverage? When Does Violet Crown Operator Lease Expire? CoStar: CVille Has 10+ Yr High Vacancy Rate (9%) Is Building Multi-Family In CVille A Good Idea? Biscuit Run Park Grand Opening On 12/14/24 Read Viewer & Listener Comments Live On-Air The I Love CVille Show airs live Monday – Friday from 12:30 pm – 1:30 pm on The I Love CVille Network. Watch and listen to The I Love CVille Show on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, iTunes, Apple Podcast, YouTube, Spotify, Fountain, Amazon Music, Audible, Rumble and iLoveCVille.com.

Good Thursday afternoon, guys. I'm Jerry Miller. Thank you kindly for joining us on the I Love Seville show. It's great to connect with you through the I Love Seville network in our studio in downtown Charlottesville, Virginia. So much to unpack on the violent Crown story. There's an extremely large portion of the Charlottesville, Albemarle County, and Central Virginia community that believe right now at this very moment that violent Crown movie theater is completely safe and nowhere near potentially closing. There's an extremely large portion of the Charlottesville, Almar County, and Central Virginia community that believes the movie theater on the downtown mall will be here for a very long time to come.

Those people are very close to being disappointed. We're going to talk on this program about the future of a movie theater that interestingly has many ardent supporters, but realistically has very little ticket revenue. We're going to talk on today's program, but realistically has very little ticket revenue. We're going to talk on today's program, which of the four parties has the leverage and the violent crown so proper? And you may ask, there are four parties involved?

Who are those four parties? We'll answer that question for you today. On today's program, we'll talk about multifamily housing. Is it a good idea to build multifamily housing in downtown Charlottesville? Luxury multifamily housing. Fantastic direct message sent to me by Twitter aficionado, Twitter virtuoso, CW history buff, who said, Jerry, CoStar currently shows Charlottesville with a decade-high vacancy rate of 9%. While we certainly have a shortage of single-family housing, are we sure we do not have a surplus of multifamily housing?

Two very different demographics, single-family housing and multifamily housing. Seville history buff continues by saying, Charlottesville is losing younger residents because of the costs associated with living in Charlottesville, and is gaining older residents. And he makes that, he utilizes that as a platform or springboard to ask this question. I'm not sure if it makes sense to incentivize this type of housing, local government, with tax abatements and TIFs. I want to unpack that on today's show. I want to talk on today's program, ladies and gentlemen, of the downtown mall.

Is it better suited having, as Daniel Kaufman said, activities for people to do, experiences, or is it better suited for housing? What's best for the mall? So much to cover today, including the grand opening of Biscuit Run State Park. I guess it's just Biscuit Run Park now, on December 14th at 10 a.m. Judah Wickhaber will give some love to Mexicali Restaurant. River Hawkins and Johnny Ornelas own Mexicali Restaurant. It's a cocktail bar.

It's a music venue. It's a street art museum and it offers some of the best Latin fusion cuisine you can find in the Commonwealth Mexicali Restaurant on West Main Street in the Old World of Beer location you must try this restaurant

ladies and gentlemen and of course we'll give some love to Charlottesville Sanitary Supply. 60 years in business, Charlottesville Sanitary Supply, a three-generation business, the Vermillion family right now, passing the torch from John Vermillion to Andrew Vermillion, a father to a son, much like the torch was passed from John Vermillion's parents to him. So much to cover on today's program. Studio camera, then welcome Judah Wickhauer. Judah, you wanted to say something there while we were making the donuts. And ladies and gentlemen, the I Love Seville show has started. It's time to make the donuts. What was on your mind there? No, it's nothing.

No, please. I'm trying to get I Love Seville food. Okay, we can go without it today. What was on your mind there? I was just going to say, don't sleep on them. They've got... Who's them? Them is Mexicali. Okay.

Taco Tuesday, they've got, I believe it's two tacos for $5. That is an amazing deal. You went there. No, I don't, but I see there. It's on my to-do list. I missed them this Tuesday, sadly. Taco Tuesday? But $5 for two tacos is an incredible deal anywhere, and they have amazing tacos. If you like spicy margaritas, the best spicy margarita I've ever had was at Mexicali Restaurant. I had it this past weekend while my kids were sliding down a slide on their

playground. It was fantastic. All right, let's get into the story as you rotate the lower thirds on screen. This is going to be a conversational show today with yours truly and J-Dub's, the jack of all trades, Judah B. Wickhauer. I want to talk the future of Violent Crown. As I led and monologued the program, there's a large portion of the Charlottesville, Alamo County, and Central Virginia community that right now, today, thinks a violent crowd movie theater is absolutely safe and its future is secure. And it will continue doing business for an extended period of time in downtown Charlottesville. And that feeling is based upon a statement released by the operators of the movie theater, the Elevate Entertainment Group. Elevate Entertainment Group is the owner of Violent Crown, the movie theater, the operator. But what Elevate Entertainment Group does not own is the real estate that its movie theater operates on top of.

And the most valuable asset at this particular location, ladies and gentlemen, is not the screens. It's not the projectors. It's not the Coca-Cola machine. It's not the butter and the popcorn. It's not even the building. The most valuable asset at Violent Crown, ladies and gentlemen, is the dirt under the movie theater. And the dirt that's under the movie theater is owned by another group altogether, not the operator, Elevate Entertainment Group, that recently

purchased Violent Crown movie theater. Instead, the dirt under the movie theater is owned by another party altogether. And that other party altogether has said, we are not going to renew the movie theater lease at Violent Crown. And they are under a very short-term lease with us. And we have done, we are exploring a partnership with New York City developer Jeff Levine about building an apartment complex here, us selling the dirt to him. And then he goes and tries to get an apartment tower of the variety of 18 stories and 184 feet and 225 apartments on this location. There's so much to unpack here. Before we go down the role of Jeff Levine, before we go down the role of Charlottesville City Council, before we go down what Mike Payne is

going to do, the city councilor, and will Michael Payne be hypocritical in his decision making and how he votes? Will he offer tax abatements, TIFs, and real estate tax breaks to this New York City developer when he was campaigning for his first term on council against the same tax breaks and TIFs for an Atlanta developer, John Dewberry, with the Dewberry Hotel? Or will he vote in the same way he did with John Dewberry? Will he have the same ideology, the same perspective as he did with John Dewberry? Before we get to all that, we need to do this. We need to unpack what's going on for the community because a large portion of the community is uncertain or confused with what's happening today.

Where do you want to begin, Judah? Where do I want to begin? Let's see. I think the best place to begin is probably Uh, let's see. I think, uh, the best place to begin is probably, uh, with the fact that we don't actually know when the lease ends. Uh, so potentially everybody's right in this, which is a very odd position to be in. Uh, but the fact of the matter is, uh, the theater, the, the uh the people running the theater elevate entertainment group elevate gotta use names here who do do not own the dirt as you mentioned uh i think they were 100 you know doing the right thing for their business venture in telling people that they're not closing. Because all we really know is that, yes, the owners, Violet Crown Entertainment Group, I believe they're called, the ones that do own the dirt but are no longer running the theater.

They have decided that they're not going to renew the lease. And as you mentioned, they are working on a deal with Jeff Levine. The big question, the gigantic question mark in all of this is, when does the lease come up? A short-term lease, who knows what they mean by that. It could be that the Violet Crown has two, three, four years left. It could be that they've only got a year and a half. The owners of the dirt, the owners of the structure, were quoted in the Daily Progress

as saying the lease is short-term, and that's all they would say. They would not offer any more clarity because of a confidentiality clause that's in place. I would imagine that confidentiality clause was put in place when the previous owners of Violent Crown sold the business to Elevate Entertainment Group. And as part of that sale, that transaction, there was language in there that said,

you cannot let folks know how long this lease is because that could potentially damage our business if people know it's short term. Which is happening right now. Which is happening right now. Which is happening right now. This is the insane thing. I'm going to ask you a very pointed question. The owners of the dirt and the owners of the building are completely different than the operators of the business. Are the owners of the dirt and the owners of the building

strategically doing this to screw the operators of the business? Are they talking with the Daily Progress to screw the operators of the business because they want an exit of this ownership position and a deal struck with Jeffrey Levine? Wouldn't they be more likely to end up in court? How would they end up in court? If they have an NDA or whatever.

Confidentiality clause. Or are they putting some external pressure on the operators of the business by forcing their hand here to close before the lease expires? They know the business is piss poor. We all know the business is piss poor. And it's not just that location. Yeah, maybe they're giving them an out or... I don't think they're giving them an out.

People in business, especially this kind of business, there's no give. It's all strategic. Everything is intentional. Everything is intentional. There's no altruism here. I didn't mean giving them anything. I mean giving them...

Forcing their hand. But if you were to force their hand, wouldn't they be more likely to say, look, we may not have been making much money, but we had a nondisclosure in place. They haven't violated a nondisclosure agreement. All they said, it's a short-term lease that's in play. They haven't talked to these specifics. That's not a violation of the nondisclosure agreement. I feel like a lawyer would 100% argue in court that this was done with malice is what you're trying to say. Yeah. No. And then I would push back on saying before the owners of the dirt and the owners of the structure talk with the newspaper, they spoke with their in-house counsel or their attorney of record.

Okay. They're not going to, people of this level of sophistication and mover and shaking, aren't going to speak to the media without vetting what they're going to say with a trusted advisor. This is usually true. But this is Charlottesville. These are people not from Charlottesville. These are people from Austin, Texas. The chain is from Austin, Texas.

And the Austin, Texas. Where's Elevate from? I think Elevate is also from Austin. That's wild. It's absolutely wild. You know what else is also wild about this story? The people that own the dirt and own the real estate clearly have the leverage over the operator of the business, Elevate. The operator of the business was blindsided by this.

They put out a statement first on Facebook. The statement first put out on Facebook by the operators of the business was then deleted. And a new statement was put out on Facebook that acknowledged that a potential sale could took place. So the first statement that was released by the operators of the business said, this was bogus. It's misinformation. Then they quickly deleted that, posted a second statement, and gave validity that a sale could happen. I believe you have that statement in front of you. I'm looking up there. Is this the purple writing?

Yep. We want to clarify recent misinformation regarding the future of Violet Crown Charlottesville. Straight from their Facebook page he's reading. While we are aware of a potential sale of the property, it is our understanding that this sale has not yet closed and no decision is final. As far as we are concerned, we have years left on our lease term and fully intend to operate through all of them and beyond if at all possible. Our commitment to this community and our desire to remain here is evidenced by our recent significant investments in the venue, such as all new seating in our cinema and the imminent reopening of our restaurant and bar. We cherish this community and our relationships within it and will continue to pursue a future for Violet

Crown in Charlottesville, either in our existing location or elsewhere. Look, in the second statement that it released, it acknowledges the deal is a possibility. And it even closes its statement by saying, here or elsewhere. The operators of the business are getting squeezed and leveraged here. I'm going to ask you a sincere question. Viewers and listeners of this show, I'm going to ask you a sincere question. Viewer and listener, viewers and listeners of this show, I'm going to ask you a sincere question. If you're leasing space and your landlord tells you, we are not going to renew your lease,

we are not going to renew your lease, what would you do if you were running that business? Question for you. Then I'll ask the viewers and listeners. Start looking for where we could move to. Start looking for another space. Second question. Would you spend a lot of money investing into improving the space?

This most certainly is a triple net lease where the operator is responsible for maintenance and upkeep of the property. Taxes, insurance of the property. If you're the operator of this business, would you continue to invest into the location knowing your lease is not going to get renewed? Of course you would not. Not a penny more than you had to. Exactly.

You would do the absolute bare minimum. So here's what we know. The owners of the dirt and the owners of the structure clearly are saying we are not going to renew this lease and they're air quotes calling it short term. The operator had no idea that a deal was being percolated or brewing on the back end. We know they had no idea, Elevate, because the first statement they put out on Facebook called this bogus and misinformation. Then it was quickly deleted. Then a second statement was put up on Facebook.

Full proof that they didn't know. I will bet you, and I don't know this for certain, this is pretty much what happened. You're probably right. The assistant manager yesterday, a violent crown, was shooting off on social media about this being misinformation, this is bogus, and we're not going everywhere, anywhere. And what happened with that first statement was the assistant manager or the head usher or the top butter pumper into the popcorn tub had access to the social media and said this wasn't true we didn't know we know nothing about this and then that was quickly deleted because someone at corporate elevate realized that they needed to hedge some risk and some exposure and not have a PR crisis on their hand,

and then put another statement out there that was clearly professionally worded with a PR specialist in some C-suite sophistication. And the second statement that was published on the Violent Crown social media channel clearly acknowledges the deal and encloses by saying, the future is either going to be here or elsewhere. And we're going to continue the extent of our lease as Judah highlighted. And no one knows this for certain outside of the C-suite and the people in the boardroom and at the negotiating table, we have no idea what short-term means. Short-term could be

six months. Short-term could be the end of 2025. Short-term could be, as Judah said, a couple years from now. We don't know. But we do know this, Judah. You ready for this? The owners of the dirt and the owners of the building,

they are not the operator. The owners could sell this building to Jeff Levine, the New York City developer. And Jeff Levine is going to have to go through a lot of approval process. Next week, he's in front of the Board of Architectural Review, the first stage of potentially an 18-story building, 184 feet tall, and 225 apartments. The first stage of it is next week. This is on the agenda on the city website. We do know that the owners of the dirt and the owners of the building

could sell to Jeff Levine while the Elevate group, the operator's license, is still in play. I have purchased a boatload of commercial real estate from, I'll give you an example. John Foltz, Dr. John Foltz, lives in the city of Charlottesville. He's a UVA professor in the engineering school. He has run for multiple positions as a Republican in Charlottesville for local government. He has not won any of those elections. You can look up John Foltz on social media or on the internet and you will find him. I will spell his name for you.

I have tremendous respect for John Foltz. You know exactly who I'm talking about. He and I did a deal about a decade ago for commercial real estate on the downtown mall. And when we did this deal, I had to, the leases that were in place, conveyed. I bought three spaces from him. One of them was home to a dentist's office. The second one was home to a law firm. And the third was home to a film studio.

One of the things that kind of irked me prior to closing, and I have tremendous respect for John and his wife Margaret, both of us would say that the deal was done very fairly. It was a seller finance deal that I paid off before the 10-year term. One of the things that irked me before this deal was done was he extended the lease of one of the tenants before I was able to ink and close the deal. And I said to him after the deal closed, I still went ahead with the closing, why did you extend this tenant and give this tenant an additional term when you knew I really wasn't interested in keeping the tenants in play? He said, because I thought it was what was fair

for the tenant that's been with me for a long time. So when I bought these three downtown spaces from John Foltz, Dr. Ben andal Page, the dentist, his lease conveyed. Ann Mishi, I'm mispronouncing her last name, M-I-C-H-E, M-I-S-C-H-E, her law firm and her team conveyed. And the Folk Hero Film Studio lease conveyed. I had inherited three leases with the deal, and I had to honor those leases. My plan was to take the three spaces I bought,

run the leases out, spend a good amount of money remodeling the spaces, and then bring the leases to market value, where the leases he had in play, John Foltz and Margaret, were not market value. They the leases he had in play, John Foltz and Margaret, were not market value. They were below market considerably. And my bet was I can buy these spaces. I can remodel the, buy these spaces for nearly half a million dollars. This was 12, 10, 10 years ago, roughly. And then I can pump X amount of money into it, bring them to market value, and I would recoup what I purchase, recoup what I put in from a remodeling standpoint, and then they would be an investment that I'd have for the rest of my life, which is where we're at now.

Then he agreed to carry the paper. He carried the paper at a fixed number at 4%. It was a good deal. It was a good deal. This is my point. There's deals done in commercial real estate all the time where the lease conveys. Where Jeff Levine can buy from the owners of the dirt in the building and still have the lease in play because he's not going to be able to do his project right away. He's going to have to go through the city approval process,

which is going to take an extended period of time. And as the New York City developer is going through the city approval process, he at least has a tenant in play that's covering some of the carrying costs associated with his acquisition. He's got at least some rent coming in. Now, there's a lot of caveats. There's a lot of conditions, a lot of contingencies on this. One of the contingencies that's being put on this, Jeff Levine won't make the deal unless Charlottesville City gives him the right to go from 13 stories, which is part of the new zoning ordinance, 13 is allowed, to 18. He can already do the 184 feet tall building. 184 foot tall building, part of the new zoning ordinance. That is an effing monster.

That is considerably larger than the tallest building in the city of Charlottesville right now, which is the Draftsmen Hotel. Is the code building, Jaffrey's building in second from a height standpoint? Yeah. Right? Well, we don't know the actual height, but yes. But it's 10 stories, Jaff Jeffrey's building, the code building. The same number of stories as...

The old Monticello Hotel is ten stories, isn't it? Or was that nine stories? I think that was nine. What's the URL again? It was iloveseville.com forward slash tallest buildings?

Something like that. Let me see if I can find it. I'm doing a quick Google search. You tell me what the URL is when you can find it. So this is what we know. For the New York City developer Jeff Levine to do this deal. Tallest buildings in Charlottesville.

iloveseatbelt.com forward slash tallest buildings in Charlottesville. Can you Facebook message me that link? Or text it to me so i could open if jeff levine is going to build the tallest building in charlottesville he needs the city of charlottesville to green light a couple of requests of his he wants to go from 13 stories to 18 stories and he wants tax cuts or tax breaks on the real estate taxes he pays. He says, I will make sure that this violent crown movie theater does not become a boarded up storefront.

But if you want me to make sure this doesn't become a boarded up storefront, I need you to allow me to build an 18 story building instead of a 13 story building by code. And I want tax breaks from you, a runway of tax breaks from me, so I make this project pencil out. And if you give me that, I'll give you 225 apartments. And activists and community members are begging, are screaming for more housing, to the point they influence local government to create a new zoning ordinance

that is all about additional density and housing. They're screaming for it. So he says, I'll give you what your voters and taxpayers want, more housing, 225 of them. And on top of that, I will give you what the new zoning ordinance requires, 10% of those 225 tied to area median income, 60% AMI for 99 damn years, area median income, $124,200. He's saying, I will give you what your taxpayer wants, but I need you to give me something in return to make this project pencil out. I was talking with another developer this morning. I had coffee with him. And this developer that I had coffee with this morning.

Owns a handful of buildings on the UVA corner. Owns a wedding and event venue. In Stanton. Where he's the managing partner. John Blair you probably know who I'm talking about. By that right there. Owns a fair amount of other real estate in the city of Charlottesville and is a good friend of mine and comes here routinely for some Irish whiskey drinking. Judah, you know who I'm talking about.

Okay. Do you know who I'm talking about with the Irish whiskey comment? No, not specifically. Man, you see all these people moving and shaking in here and... Okay, that's fine. I don't remember. I've never seen you pour the Irish whiskey for anyone. You've had the Irish whiskey with us together, where we were talking about Ukraine

and Russia. He was sitting right next to me and you were offering... Okay, we're getting in the weeds here. Okay. He made the comment to build an 18-story building that's 184

feet tall on the site of the Violent Crown movie theater is obscenely expensive. Yeah. Because there's special... The seating for a cinema

is specially made... No, no, no. It's not even tied to that. Not even that? You would tear down the building. Well, yeah. It's not even tied to that. He said a building of that high,

the structural engineering costs associated with a building that high is a level of price per square foot that folks that aren't even in this type of work don't even understand. He also made the comment, there is maybe one firm locally that can do this project. And that one firm locally that can do this project would not want to do this project

because of how nightmarish it is to work with the city of Charlottesville. He said as a result, it most likely will be an out-of-market firm that does this project who would charge a premium to go into Charlottesville, a headache place to do construction, and do the work. He said this would easily be 400 to 500 cost per square foot. Easily. be four to five hundred square foot cost per square foot easily which so that would mean that that Levine would lean even further on Charlottesville to give him tax and that's what Levine is doing and things like that he's saying I can't do this I can't do this. I can't pencil this out unless it's 18 stories, 225 apartments, and you give me tax breaks out of the gate on what I'm paying on my real estate.

And he's saying, if you don't give me this, and this process starts early next week, if you don't give me this, then I'm not going to do this deal. And you risk a violent crowd on the downtown mall becoming a ghost town and he's saying that because he knows the business is struggling what's crazy is people pound their chest and they say save violent crown save violent crown we love violent crown and everyone expresses that emotion at a time we think when they think the business is closing. What they are not doing is spending their money at Violent Crowd when they think the business is just in operation. Go to Violent Crown during the week, ladies and gentlemen.

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday. There will be a dozen people in the movie theater. Go to Violent Crowd on Friday and Thursday. There will be a dozen people in the movie theater. Go to Violent Crowd on Friday and Saturday. Look at the tickets that are punched, the seats that are open on their website. This is not a business that is having success. And I want to say this again. We just moved, we went from Keswick to Ivy we said we're not going to take any of the TVs with us and no I take that back

we took a couple of the TVs with us Spencer Pushard helped us move some of those TVs then what we did we went to Best Buy we bought a 73 inch TV for the main room, a 60-some-inch TV for the second, the family room, a 50-inch TV for the workout room,

two other TVs for the bedroom, and one TV for the screen and porch outside Four Seasons' room. I think it was like five or six TVs. Those five or six TVs cost us like $3,500, including installation. The TVs offer a cinematic experience with surround sound, a movie theater quality experience with surround sound, a movie theater quality experience with surround sound and viewing and listening, and I don't have to drive anywhere, pay for any tickets,

and can get the cold beer, the Twinkies and the Ho-Hos, and the same popcorn out of my fridge and my cupboard. And I don't have to get a babysitter. I can just look at the baby monitor that's sitting next to me. Who is bullish on movie theaters today? Anyone who says they're bullish on the movie theater business model today is huffing glue. Are you bullish on movie theaters? Not particularly. And why is that? For all the reasons I just outlined?

Yeah, more or less. Okay. Another piece of collateral damage because of COVID and the pandemic. Movie theaters. And they were already heading in that direction. COVID just fast-tracked it just like it fast-tracked so many other things. Hope you're rotating the lower thirds on screen. You jump in any time you want as well, please.

If you're the operator of the business, why would you put a single cent more into improving this business model knowing your lease is not going to be renewed? If you're the owner of the building and the owner of the dirt, you're clearly courting a buyer for your building and your dirt and Jeff Levine. If you're the owner of the building and owner of the dirt,

it would behoove you to make it known to the community through the media that this lease is short and it's not going to be renewed because that puts pressure on the operator and it shows everyone in the community that this business might close. If you're Jeff Levine, you want to play the same perception media game and you want to put in the media, hey, this could be a boarded up storefront if you don't let me become your white knight and savior. And for me to be your white knight and savior, I need the tax breaks and I need the ability to go from 13 stories to 18 stories. And if you're city council, you're left

with this predicament. This is the predicament. And two of the five spots are up for reelection next year, Pinkston and Wade. This is the predicament they're left with. Do we give the tax breaks to Jeff Levine, knowing that the owner of the real estate and the dirt said they're not going to renew the lease on these people? And we risk this becoming a pee-pee and poo-poo paradise for the houseless, just like the Dewberry Hotel is. And if we give them the tax breaks that allow him to go from 13 stories to 18 stories, what does that make us look like? It makes Michael Payne look like a hypocrite. Because Michael Payne campaigned on a platform that said, John Dewberry, you out-of-market developer, no way in hell I'm going to give you

tax breaks in these parking breaks in the Water Street garage. Screw you, John Dewberry. We're not giving tax breaks to wealthy out-of-market developers. That was Payne's campaign and platform in term one. So if he does it right now for Jeff Levine, the New York City out-of-market developer, he looks like a hypocrite. Now, he could politick it by saying this, and Michael Payne, you watch the program,

this is how you would politick it. You could politick it by saying, well, times have changed. Since COVID, Charlottesville's become a hybrid and remote work epicenter and a paradise of transplants or of moving to the area, which has dramatically brought up the cost of living, and we need more housing now. And when John Dewberry, eight years ago, nine years ago, five years ago, before COVID wanted those tax breaks,

we didn't have the housing crisis we do now. That's what he's going to do if he votes yes on this. If he votes yes on the tax breaks or say he'd go forward with the tax breaks. Then you have to ask yourself this question. If the tax breaks are offered and you can go from 13 to 18 stories, how does John Dewberry play it? How does Chris Henry play it?

How does every other developer that wants to do a project here, Oliver Kutner, how does he play it? Oliver just got married. Love seeing you around the town, Oliver. We shake hands, you shake my hand. I'm like, can I have my forearm back, please? How does the guy that I drink Irish whiskey play it? How does Keith Woodard and Anthony Woodard play it? Right?

Is this now a Pandora's box that's been opened and a precedent that's been set? And I'm going to ask you this question. Who has the most leverage here? And then viewers and listeners will get to your comments. This is such an effing unbelievable story. Unbelievable story. Joanne Mackey, Kevin Higgins, Mike Buczynski, Holly Foster, we'll get to your comments. Judah Wittkower, your comments on this Aaron King, Vanessa Parkhill Georgia Gilmer GG, sorry, Georgia Gilmer we'll get to your comments

Deep Throat, we'll get to your comments so many effing comments are coming in right now Judah Wickower first, man of the hour, Judah Wickower man, if I were city council I think I would oppose this Judah Wickower first. Man of the hour, Judah Wickower. Man, if I were city council, I think I would oppose this all the way, despite what anyone says, because they have a history. Not the current members of the council, but council has a history of making some bad deals and I would be very careful about

getting into another bad deal with a developer. They just navigated a horrendous deal with Mark Brown, the parking czar, where they're going to pay him tens of millions of dollars until the year 2040. Mark Brown had the city

by the short and curlies. Deep Throat is all over this doing calculations. Deep Throat, you're watching the program. How many square feet do you think would be in a building that's 18 stories and 225 apartments? Can you send me that DM? How many square feet would be in an 18-story building that's 184 square feet tall,

184 feet tall and and 225 apartments. Please tell me that number deep throat, your guess. And he's saying that number that your developer friend gave you that likes the Irish whiskey, $500 per square foot cost of construction is right on point. He said it probably is more than $500. I want to try to anticipate or calculate the cost of building this building. To put in perspective the risk Jeff Levine is taking building this building. John Blair, I'm coming to you next.

He says around 300,000 square feet in this building. 300,000 times, let's just use the number 500. You're talking $150 million building. Let's go 300,000 and that's total square feet. Let's go 300,000 times 525. You're talking $157.5 million construction costs. Now, I got this DM on Twitter yesterday from CWBuff, CW History Buff. He says CoStar has got the vacancy rate for housing in the Charlottesville area at 9%, which is a decade plus high. CoStar is an analytic service. The decade high, decade plus high vacancy rate

for multifamily housing in the Charlottesville area, 9%. Deep Throat, I said that in the beginning of the show, he makes this comment. He said, I have said this for a long time. There is not real demand for luxury rentals in Charlottesville. There's demand for commodity rental and for student rental.

Rich people don't move here to rent. Yeah. He said, I saw something similar in Bozeman. Residential rental vacancy is almost 15% vacant. 15% in Bozeman, Montana. And yet the market is quite hot if you look at the real estate prices. Single-family housing owner-occupied market is hot. Multi-family housing commodity market and luxury multi-family housing rental markets are all very different.

Luxury multi-family housing rental has been a total bust in Bozeman. Why is luxury multifamily rentals a bust in Bozeman and potentially a bust in Charlottesville? Why? Because the people with the big bucks that are coming in and buying properties are not younger people with families. Almost right. Okay. Try it again. Why are expensive rentals facing headwinds in Bozeman and Charlottesville? Because nobody can afford them.

Okay. I'm going to give you the answer. Expensive rentals are facing headwinds in Bozeman and in Charlottesville because the people that can't afford them are buying something instead. They're not paying $5,000, $4,000, $5,000, $6,000, $7,000 a month to rent somewhere. This is not Manhattan.

This is not Tribeca. This is not Soho. We're not on Park Avenue or the upper east side yeah the people that can come here and pay that clip say f this i'll just pay 25 more and buy something in farmington and bel air on ivy around rugby because it's still cheap compared to what I'm used to. That's the point CW history buff is making. Do we really need expensive multifamily housing in the Charlottesville area when the socioeconomic demographics

of those coming to Charlottesville are older, the younger are being pushed out. Younger, frontline workers, retail workers, F&B workers, right? They're being pushed out to other outer counties, being pushed out to the Shenandoah Valley, to Waynesboro, because they can't afford to live here. They're being replaced by hybrid and remote workers that are working in their BBVDs, their tighty-whities, their bathrobes from an ISP in their basement. Their firms in Boston, D.C., Georgetown, Manhattan,

anywhere in the effing world now. Right? Hybrid and remote work. Those folks ain't gonna rent. He's saying, CW history buff, that this kind of project, the city shouldn't offer them the tax abatements or the zoning massaging

because it's not really the type of rental that's needed. The Matthew Gilligans of the world and Livable Charlottesville are saying, give us the housing. Any supply is going to help this housing crisis we're in. But that crew, they're not business people. They're not in the game. They read a lot of books. They follow a lot of people on Twitter. Oh, sorry, blue sky, blue sky. It makes perfect sense to go into an ecosystem, blue sky, with people that you only agree with and only have like-minded perspectives.

It does not make perfect sense to stay on Twitter where there's people that disagree with you and push back on you. The way to get ahead in life is to go into an echo chamber where it's only people that agree with you and not people that push back on you. Go ahead and go to blue sky. Makes perfect sense. Can you sense the sarcasm? I can sense it. It's dripping. I just hope they can sense the sarcasm as well.

This is an effing unbelievable story. I love this story so much. I can tell. But you see why? There's so many freaking layers to this onion. And you made a fantastic point. The city of Charlottesville,

look at the deals that they've done already. And what? The last year. Mm-hmm. And, and, considering the fact that they don't have a,

a city attorney right now, I would be, This is so now, I would be so, so careful about jumping into any deal at this point. How about this? How about this? We don't even know if the new zoning ordinance is above board yet. There's a lawsuit against the new zoning ordinance. It was just shot to pieces like Swiss cheese in Arlington. Remember? How about the city of Charlottesville not do any

decision making until we know Judge Worrell greenlights or redlights the new zoning ordinance. We've already highlighted on this show that Judge Worrell's wife was an activist in favor of the new zoning ordinance. Is that a conflict of interest? I'll leave that up to somebody else to decide. How about this being a conflict of interest? They live in the city of Charlottesville and their housing is incredibly more valuable if it has zoning flexibility. Is that a conflict of interest? It was enough conflict of interest to have two other judges in Arlington County recuse themselves from this decision. I think it was four judges. Was it four?

Was it two or four? I think it was four. Okay. So you're telling me there's another jurisdiction in the Commonwealth of Virginia that is going through a zoning law, that just went through a zoning lawsuit. And before the judge, who was from Fairfax, I believe, said, this new zoning ordinance, he shot it to pieces.

He left the new zoning ordinance looking like Swiss cheese. And before that Fairfax judge said, no way, Jose, you're telling me four other judges? I thought it was two. But you're telling me a handful of other judges? The four judges

in that district all recuse themselves. Because they lived there, of course. I mean, you know, I'm not saying I'm not implying anything. They live in the jurisdiction they're making a decision on. And they don't want to have a conflict of interest perception

because that's not how judging works. You're supposed to be neutral, fair, and third party, not a benefactor of more density or not a benefactor of zoning flexibility. If you're a benefactor of zoning flexibility, your land becomes more valuable. And that can be used against you by saying,

this guy had a conflict of interest. Do you see what I'm saying? Doesn't this seem like pretty much effing common sense? If the people that are initiating the lawsuit on the new zoning ordinance lose the lawsuit and Worrell says the NZO is green light,

green lit, won't those people say, this is BS, this is a judge that shouldn't have made a decision on it? They'll say he's biased, we'll take it to another court. Should the city of Charlottesville be doing any kind of decision making until we know the NCO is legit? Probably not. Effing crazy! I think they should also wait until they have an on-staff city attorney.

Effing crazy. One of the five people making the decision on this, or that could be making the decision on this, shot this to poo when it was John Dewberry and the Dewberry Hotel. And because he shot it to poo, the Dewberry Hotel is a rusted steel skeleton. The developer that's saying he's going to keep this from becoming

a rusted steel skeleton, because anyone who thinks the Elevate Entertainment Group is going to have a bullish business model in downtown Charlottesville with selling $15 movie tickets and $13 drafts of beer is insane. Go ahead. I mean, that's for them to decide. That is for them to decide.

But serious question. Do we think Jeff Levine has the kind of money to make that kind of statement, to go through with a purchase of this property and then just do nothing with it? You mean the same Jeff Levine who bought the Arful Lodger building, the livery stable building, and spent

a boatload of time to get approval from apartments and then in the bottom of the ninth inning said, peace, I'm not doing those apartments. I'm selling this for $5.7 million, and I'm now converting this into hotels? You mean the same Jeff Levine? You mean the same Jeff Levine that built the building

where the Blue Moon Diner is and built apartments next to the University Tire on West Main Street? Luxury apartments? The same Jeff Levine that I believe owns University Tire? I'm not going to... I'm not sure what any of that has... I'm not sure how that has any point in the question I'm asking.

It's called proof of performance. It's called pop. It's called a track record of success. And the past proof of performance is that when he couldn't pencil out what the Arfa Lodger and the Library Stable were going to become, he sold it to recoup his money.

And still has a stake in what is going to be a marriott brand in the shadows of the omni hotel yeah he's still going to make money j dubs i didn't say he that was exactly my point is that he was doing this to make money of course and my point the question i was asking was does he have the kind of money he would need to just let this sit for years and pay the carrying costs of it? No. That's why he's saying, I'm not going to do this deal unless you give me 18 stories and tax abatement. Yeah. He's saying, I will not do this deal unless I can go from 13 stories to 18. And if the lease has years left on it,

then that gives the Violet Crown Entertainment Group, who owns the dirt but doesn't run the actual theater, it gives them time to find another buyer. It gives them time to find another buyer, 100%. 100%. But we know from a sophisticated developer that the project that's going to work on this location needs to be 18 stories and needs tax abatements.

Levine is straight up saying, I don't know Levine from Adam. That's pretty funny. Adam Levine because Adam Levine is a singer? That's a fucking joke. You don't think that's a fucking joke? It's okay. It relies heavily on someone... You don't think that's a fucking joke? It's okay. It relies heavily on someone...

I don't know Levine from Adam. It relies heavily on the audience knowing who Adam Levine is. Oh my god. Do you think that the audience doesn't know who Adam Levine is? I'm sure there are at least a few that don't know who that is.

You think everybody watching knows who that is? I would think most people watching or listening to this show know who Adam Levine is. Okay. I think you aged yourself right there. But I know who he is. Then you didn't think it was funny? When I put it together, yeah. Thank you. It was okay.

He's so hesitant to give me credit. I don't know Levine from Adam. Yeah. Who loves making fun of me for laughing at his own jokes? I'm laughing at you in this scenario, to be frank. I don't know Levine from Adam.

But one thing I do know is this. The man doesn't strike me as a dummy. No. The man strikes me as a pretty shrewd and frugal and sophisticated developer and businessman. And he has most likely a boatload of money and access to a boatload of capital. And for some reason, he has an affinity to Charlottesville. He's already done a luxury project on West Main Street. He's bringing a hotel to the downtown mall.

Quite confident he owns the University Tire location on West Main Street next to this luxury building. He's trying to buy an effing movie theater and build a $150 million, 300,000 square foot building. He clearly has ties or an affinity or a passion for Charlottesville. This isn't going to be the last time we see Adam Levine's brother, Jeff Levine. They're not related at all.

And he's no dummy. If he's saying, I need this for this to work here, I would bet others are probably thinking the same thing. John Blair watching the program, I've got to get to JB. JB, I'm getting your comments here. John Blair says this.

First, Mexicali is legit. Great food. Great food at Mexicali. Second, here's what I still don't understand. The second statement by the operator of the business uses the plural years left on the lease. Unless they've truly messed up here, doesn't that imply that there are at least two years left on the lease? I simply cannot comprehend framing two plus years as short term. Short term typically refers to less than one year in my humble opinion. Third, give me odds on these apartments actually being built.

I really would enjoy if you started to set lines on stories. I go four to one against 225 apartments ever being built in that spot. What odds are you giving? I frankly, frankly speaking, John Blair, I effing love you, John Blair. I would give you a chest bump right now and pour you some scotch or some Irish whiskey despite it being 1.30 in the afternoon. I don't think these 225 apartments are going to be built either.

And I want you to understand what happens if these 225 apartments are not built. Are you ready for this? Yeah. In a little over a calendar year, the same community and the same activists and the same people that have been pushing the new

zoning ordinance forward have shut down how many? Pooh-poohed Phase 3 dairy market Chris Henry where he took proverbial arrows to the chest from the Zianna Bryant jet set.

What's jet set mean? Just a group of people. Zion Bryant jet set. Chris Henry arrows to the chest from the Zion Bryant jet set in a church in the 10th and Page neighborhood. The same people that want Charlottesville to have more density

and are screaming that we need more housing because we have a housing crisis used community activism and outcry and environmental outcry on the Rivanna River with Bo Carrington and Wendell Wood. The city ended up purchasing that land. That could have been developed there. That could have been developed. The same people use outcry, political

pressure, activism to get the Carlton Mobile Home Park to go into the hands of Habitat for Humanity who can't do anything for 36 months on that project and needed a last second bridge loan from the city to get the to make the purchase happen.

Those same people are poo-pooing and outcrying 225 apartments on the downtown mall because, woe is me, we have to save our movie theater that shows the indie films and sells the $13 beers in the expensive tubs of popcorn butter. You see what I'm saying? It's called effing hypocrisy.

But are you being completely honest about all this? Which part? Some of the people that were against the production of the Ravenna property were the people living downstream. It wasn't – I don't know that it was all of the people that you're talking about, that they had reason, they had their own reasons for. Judah, isn't it the responsibility of government to make decisions based on the electorate in totality, as opposed to the electorate, the populace, the taxpayers in small quantity? Sure. And government heard from the community, we want more density and we want more housing

and we need a new zoning ordinance. And we got the NCO. We spent years on this effing thing. Effing years on this thing we've spent. And here everyone is shooting it down left and right because it's not in my backyard. It's effing hypocrisy. There's a problem here.

You've got some turtles and some frogs and some salamanders and some ducks on the Rivanna River that are going to be hurt. Oh, there's a problem here on 10th and Page. You've got a historically marginalized neighborhood that may get hurt by this. In reality, it's the opposite. More housing next to the historically marginalized neighborhood keeps the historically marginalized neighborhood from getting gentrified. Oh, you've got a problem over here. You've got to save the rusted and fallen down and broken down and on their last leg trailers. And these 53 families, these 63 families that are living in this trailer park,

we've got to save them. We're not going to think about the 253 families, these 63 families that are living in this trailer park, we've got to save them. We're not going to think about the 253 families that could have been moved into this trailer park. Oh, oh, oh, we can't do it on the downtown mall because we've got to save the movie theater. We've got to watch our indie films and pay $14 for draft beer and $10 for a tub of buttered popcorn. We can't do it on the downtown mall. It's effing hypocrisy. and $10 for a tub of buttered popcorn. We can't do it on the downtown mall. It's effing hypocrisy. Hypocrisy.

And I'll catch heat from that, from the meme accounts, and I'll embrace it and love it. Chuckle when I read it. Do I think 225 apartments are going to materialize on the downtown mall? I'm going to get to all the comments on my Facebook page next. Heather Walker, Johnson Village's finest, watching the program. Do I think 225? John puts it on four to one against it.

JB, I think those odds are light. I'd say it's maybe seven or eight to one against it. Because I don't think Levine even considers spending $150 million, $175 million on a 300,000 square foot apartment tower unless he gets exactly what he wants from Charlottesville. And if he doesn't get exactly what he wants from Charlottesville, he's going to say it again. These people are bogus and they don't really want housing here. Because he said it the first time by the Omni Hotel. He said, the new zoning ordinance doesn't work. And he'll say it

even louder on this one. And to John Blair's point, the operator of the movie theater, their statement on Facebook used the word years. Yeah. He's exactly right. I know. So that means that John Blair and as Judah Wickhauer said, two or more. And if it's two or more, it's not short term. Right. The owners of the dirt and the owners of the building

are trying to bully the operators of the business through the power of public perception. And by putting in the news cycle, and on the most watched and listened to media platform in central Virginia, that this is not going to stay a movie theater for long. They know what they've clearly done is they caused the death of 1,000 cuts

for a business that was already dying the death of 1,000 cuts for a business that was already dying the death of 10,000 cuts. If you're the operator of this business, you're not going to put a dime into this building. You're not going to put a dime into upkeep. You're not going to put a dime into maintenance. Not a dime into improvements. Not a dime into upping the technology.

Not a dime into it. Because you are not getting your lease renewed. And now you know it. And now you know it. And now what happens? Now we wait for the decline. No. Okay, there it is.

Go down that road? They don't need everybody to stop going. They just need enough people to stop going to the theater that the theater decides it's no longer worth the money to stay there. Okay. And then what happens then? Maybe they try to wiggle their way out of the lease early. God, I fucking love you, Judah.

There it is. Although, again – There it is. Leases get broken all the time. There's a penalty clause to break the lease. You're going to pay a chunk of money to break the lease. But the chunk of money you're going to pay to break the lease is going to be less than running the lease in totality. I have penalty clauses in my lease all the time.

I got a penalty chunk of money at nearly $20,000 for someone breaking our lease. And then I went the next month and rented the same property again. The person who broke the lease, they didn't want to pay the 20K, but the lease that they had to pay was a hell of a lot more than the 20K. And then they got really pissed when I rented it the next month.

But that's called what? Business. Bingo. Bingo. And it's in the contract. You put the pressure on a business that's already dying, and then the business that's already dying is not going to do anything to innovate,

and it's not going to do anything to innovate and survive and stay alive in a market where there's two other movie theaters that are already eating their lunch. Alamo's a better experience. Stonefield's a better experience. Everyone knows it. Alamo andfield's a better experience. Everyone knows it. Alamo and Stonefield are better experiences. Everyone knows it. And now you have the third

player in the market not willing to innovate or improve their model. And if they don't innovate and improve their model, they lose more market share. If they lose more market share, they continue to die. If they continue to die, they have to figure out a way out of death. And the way out of death is the lease break. And if the lease break happens, the owners of the dirt and the owners of the building get a chunk of money. And then they take the dirt and the building and then they go find a Jeff Levine and sell it. Fucking crazy. This is a fucking

crazy story. I love this stuff. Effing love this stuff. So many comments. Alright, I'm going to get to my Facebook page first. We've gone 70 minutes without taking a break. I realized yesterday I was leaving the office that,

what did I say as I left the office? I've been in here for 10 hours straight without taking a break or leaving to pee. Yesterday, 10 hours straight without leaving the desk or the office or peeing. Comments coming in. Joanne Mackey is a businesswoman. I want to get to her comments. I would do the deal. Anything to discourage a ghost town.

The new residents bring their income tax and business to the downtown mall when they live there. I have a friend in the Garrett building, and I, she must be in the Gleason building. I have a friend in the Gleason building, and I drive in and we walk to C&O for dinner. I never do that myself because I live in Glenmore, and C&O is not on my radar. Joanne Mackey, or Holly Foster is responding to Joanne Mackey. She's talking about a movie theater

she goes to at Stony Point Mall where Saks and Fleming's restaurant are located. Nice to go for a special movie and the popcorn is outstanding. Otherwise, I watch movies at home on demand. Mike Buchenski says, infrastructure is a major issue as well. 150 new mall apartments

is likely going to mean no parking and parking issues. Deep Throat highlighted yesterday with the new zoning ordinance, there are no parking requirements. Although he said that's going to be a tough sell when you're trying to rent four and $5,000, $6,000 apartments. No doubt. These people are going to have cars. And you're telling them that they've got to spend however much at the Water Street parking garage. Yeah, an extra $1.40 a month to rent a spot on the parking garage. He says it's going to be tough renting apartments without having parking on site. No doubt.

Philip Dow, it's too ridiculous to add these apartments to the downtown mall it will not improve the downtown mall it will turn it into fashion square Daniel Kaufman the owner of Public and the owner of Blackout Chop House he has indicated on social media that downtown needs entertainment attractions it does not need the housing

yeah definitely gosh this is so crazy Definitely. Gosh, this is so crazy. Janice Boyce Trevelyan, I think, liked the Adam Levine joke. No peeing. You're a young man. I think that was a reference to the peeing and pooping comments. Oh, man.

I'll close the program with this because we've got to go make some money. 75 minutes in without stopping. I'll close with this. First, an item out of the notebook. When is the Biscuit Run Park grand opening? Biscuit Run Park grand opening. Let's see. 12-14. December 14th, Biscuit Run Park is going to open.

There's a crazy history behind Biscuit Run Park is going to open. There's a crazy history behind Biscuit Run Park where tax breaks were offered by the Commonwealth of Virginia for what was going to be housing development in the urban ring. And then tax credits were offered by the Commonwealth of Virginia to save the tookus of the wealthy who were trying to bid housing and develop a neighborhood at a time during the housing crisis, when it would have been the worst time possible,

and they would have lost their tookus or had their tookus torched. No one wants a torched tookus. So the Commonwealth of Virginia kept their tuchus from being torched, and instead had their tuchus tuchus. Tuchus? Yeah, more or less. You're close. What's the opposite of torched

that starts with T? The opposite of torched? Opposite of stung or hurt that starts with T for the alliteration. Their tuchus was tissueation. Their tuchus was going to be torched. Instead, their tuchus was tissueed with the tax credits.

Read up on that story. It's fascinating. We'll see how this plays out. Chapter 1 is underway. Chapter 1 was using the media. We're using them too. I want was using the media. We're using them too.

I want them to realize that. Because they're basically being turned into characters in a podcasting script by us. They're being used for entertainment. They're using us to try to dictate the narrative. And then we're pretty much dictating what the narrative is going to be. That's why the developers and the deep pocketed are coming in here trying to tell us what to do with the narrative. Chapter one is underway. The first chapter was Jeff Levine and the owners of

the dirt and the owners of the building saying that the lease was short and this is what we're going to do. Chapter two early next week. And the second chapter early next week, ladies and gentlemen, is what's on the agenda with the Board of Architectural Review. The group that's in

got the groups that's being grabbed by the short and curlies, that's got the you know what and the vice, is the operator. The city's got options. Levine didn't have to do this and he's sitting on stacks. The people that own the dirt and the real estate have a significant asset on their hands. The operator has got their nuts in a vice. And all three parties around have control of the vice. Thursday edition of the I Love C-Bowl Show.

Judah Wickhauer, Jerry Miller. Thank you.